What was Faye Turney doing in the Gulf?

The mother of a three-year-old child should not be serving on a navy boat in the Gulf.

Everything about Leading Seaman Faye Turney, 26, makes me furious. She is the living embodiment of the deep selfishness of the modern professional woman who wants to have it all and uses arguments about 'equality' to bolster her cause. 

This is what she said shortly before she was taken hostage by Iran, sitting in front of a computer picture of her daughter, Molly, 3. "I know by doing this job that I can give my daughter everything she wants in life and hopefully by seeing me doing what I do, she'll grow up knowing that a woman can have a career and a family at the same time."

Rubbish. It may be unfashionable and even unfeminist to say it, but young children need their mothers. It's one thing to go out to work during the day but be there at breakfast and bedtime, it's quite another to absent yourself from your child's life for weeks or months at a time in the name of the job you love. If she loves the navy (which she has likened to being on a cruise) so much, why did she have a kid? She's only young, she could have served in the navy till she was 30 and then decided to have children.

Rather than giving her daughter a good model about what women are capable of, she's denying her the only thing that children really need: the sense that their mother is there for them 100 per cent, putting their own desires and

ambitions on the back burner for those precious years while children are small and vulnerable.

Frankly if you are not prepared to do that for your children you shouldn't have them at all. Of course this is an extreme case - but the rest of us aren't immune from this syndrome either. I'm getting heartily sick of the kind of professional women who blithely tell me that they are only their children's 'breakfast and weekend mummy, the nanny does the rest' - or those who park their infants at only a few months old in nurseries to be looked after by a cast of strangers (the average face time that a kid gets in a nusery over a whole day which can be up to 12 hours is 8 minutes, according to Steve Biddulph's book on the subject).

Come on ladies, I'm all for being a professional and having a family but something has to give, and when the kids are very small it should be our own careers and ambitions. I know there are full time mums out there who will think like this about me and that it is all a matter of degree, but come on, there has to be a limit.

UPDATE: Jill Kirby writes about Faye Turney in the Sunday Times: "Our unease at the prospect of young mothers going into war zones might be a sign of civilised values, rather than evidence of a failure to keep pace with change."

Comments

[Sharon]

N Page..I really don't want to be as rude to you as you have been to me, but could you at least read what I have written (especially as I have put a lot of thought into it!) Anti- women..anti-working women..sigh.
And yes, I think she has brought the navy into disrepute for money. She has allowed herself to be a political pawn, but that's another debate altogether.
As food for thought I've read an article on the subject of mothering. The argument goes like this...throughout history we humans have tried to convince ourselves that mothers are not really necessary, for example we can feed a baby without a mother and we can find others to look after them for us. Women have been able to take on a more male role and motherhood has become devalued as a result. But, like it or not, humans are not designed for this type of 'mothering- at- a- distance', they need nurturing, it's what makes us human.This will always be the case unless some clever person redesigns the human baby.
Being a mother is about accepting that someone is at least as important as yourself. It does not mean saying 'I love you' then running off to pursue your own interests, it means committing yourself to your child. Love is an abstract, commitment is real.I share these views.You and I will never agree because we have fundamentally different views about being a mother.
To those who have been so incensed by Eleanor's article, think again. What it does is force you to think about where you really stand on the issue, rather than sitting on the fence.It's called a debate.

[Susie]

Who did you want/do you still want even, when you were sad, ill, tired, lonely? Your mum. Whenever I was ill as a child, Dad just didn't cut it, but I suppose that's because there was a choice between the two. I'm all for working mothers, but working mothers who are still at arm's length should the need arise, not putting their lives in danger on the other side of the world. I had no sympathy for Faye Turney, she should quit while she's ahead.

[N Page]

SO Sharon, not only is Faye bad for being in the Navy, now she's bad for giving her side of the story?

For Gods sake, why do you hate working women so much?

[sharon]

N.Page..your Caps Lock is playing up again.

It's my 'business' because I have a right to state my opinion on this site, just as you do. Her parenting skills might be excellent but she's not there to exercise them. Looking after children is not like studying with the Open University.
You keep suggesting that I'm anti-women..how can that be when I'm saying that a mother is so important to a young child? What you seem to object to is the idea that once a woman has a child someone is actually more important than her, that perhaps she should put someone else first.Why does that idea sit so uncomfortably with you?
It's interesting to see the simplistic way in which you would judge the results of poor parenting.
Do you really think you would have to wait until they are teenagers, displaying the kind of behaviour you describe?
I know teenagers who have been badly let down by both parents who do not behave in this way, they're law-abiding and caring but what they've missed out on shows in more subtle ways.
The impression you give me is of someone who doesn't give much credit to the feelings of a 3 year old. Why don't you find a few and ask them where they would like their mother to be? You could have asked the same question 100 years ago or a 100 years hence, the answer would be the same.
PS If they say otherwise you would really need to be worried.
PPS To anyone else reading this I'm not saying all mothers need/are able to be at home 24 hours a day, I recognise that some women have to work ..please read my other posts.

Oh and another thing...
I also question the judgement of anyone selling their story to The Sun...hope her daughter can't read yet.

[N Page]

I cannot believe someone has just said men can't look after children because they don't have breasts!

No wonder so many women are seeking divorces if this is the standard of Britain's men.

(I fortunately have my Mr Right. He's absolutely perfect, and understands that he doesn't need to have a pair of boobs to be a parent).

[N Page]

"I'm simply saying that I disagree that she's doing the best thing for her child based on my own experiences of parenting"

Sharon, WHY IS IT YOUR BUSINESS to state on whether Faye's parenting skills are good or bad? her daughter's three years old. Her daughter isn't pregnant, hanging about on street corners, or robbing old ladies.

Until any of her children in the future do anything wrong, you simply cannot say Faye is a bad mother. Its pure bigotry that you are projecting, and it is very sad. But then, women are other women's worst enemies. (That's certainly something Faye's daughter will learn from all this).

[Emily]

It would seem that Ms Turney has shown lack of judgement in more ways than one...

[Jessica]

A disgustingly judgemental article.

[Lucy Donaldson]

Well frankly 'aplha mummy' i am getting heartily sick of women who feel that they are the only figure in childrens lives. While the bond between mother and child is essential it is not the only bond, there is a father you know and it is terrible of you to suggest that they do not have any role or crucial influence on a childs upbringing. But can i ask you, what of the 'breakfast and bedtime' fathers? Do they inspire the same fury or disgust? I'm going to guess not. Many people in the debate and commenting on this blog have voiced their outrage at this rant and i have to say that i cannot believe that on the day that their release is announced you would respond with slander of a woman who is defending all the rights of this country and those of Iraq. I cannot help but wonder that if you can honestly discredit women in the armed servies that you have not been transported here from the 1950's in a tardis.

[Gymaddict]

To alpha mummy - How dare you criticize this woman. Be furious about your own choice and life - you have no right to be furious with Faye Turney's.

Some of the comments made here made me shudder. Her daughter is three, and had her father looking after her. I fail to see what is wrong with that. Women do NOT have a monopoly on caring or parenting.
(and yes I am a mother too)

[CJ]

Some of the posters need to realise that there are other domestic situations out there than they see in their seemingly blue skies green grass world.

I really want to have children at some point in the next couple of years. The problem is that I earn far more than my husband does. Although I love my job and worked hard to get qualified, if I had a child I would gladly take a lower skilled/lower paid/part time job closer to home or not work at all if I could - but unfortunately we could not pay the bills on that and my husbands salary.

As it is if we have children I will have to keep working and be a breakfast/bath/weekend mum. I wish it could be another way but I will not be choosing my career over my child I will be choosing my career so that I can have a child.

Perhaps some of the people that have been berating working mums need to consider that not all cases are career mad workaholics, just in a different way of life to the wives of investment bankers who can afford to stay at home with the baby - or are you saying that only the rich or the very poor (council houses/benefits assisted) who are able to have children because they're the only mums able to stay at home all the time??!

[Mum to Be]

This article makes me so mad! What makes it OK for fathers to go off to war but not mothers? Has Alpha Mummy considered that perhaps Faye Turney's children are being cared for by - shock, horror!! - their Dad??!!

To all you women who complain about a lack of equal rights but then continue to propagate the myth that children are best off with their Mums (while all Dads are good for is earning a wage) - SHAME ON YOU!

All you men who (like Tom) who also support this myth - you only have yourselves to blame when your wife divorces you and gets custody of the kids.

As for Tom's comments that men can't care for children because they don't have breasts - ever heard of breast pumps?

[Mummy]

Amelie - I thought the reason they didn't fight back was because they weren't where they should have been and it would have been making things much worse if they had done so. As far as I am aware we aren't at war with Iran and so fighting at that stage would have been illegal surely?

I am certain that operational decisions are never made on the basis of whether or not to put the little woman in danger. Otherwise there would be no women in any front line postions ever and we wouldn't be having this debate.

As for all mothers staying at home - some children are better off without their mother's attentions as some women are just not pleasant to be around. I had a very scary mother and I am very thankful that she worked through my early childhood and would have preferred her to have been away more if anything. But I am still glad she gave birth to me as I have since had a very interesting and full life and now have a happy family of my own.

It isn't as clear cut as 'people who can't be good mothers shouldn't have children' - because there are some wonderful people out there who wouldn't be alive today if some very bad mothers hadn't had children - many of them great artists and scientists etc.

[Tom]

It seems Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is an Alpha Mummy reader:

He then interrupted his speech to give bravery awards to three members of the Iranian coast guard and admonished the Royal Navy for sending a female sailor to the front lines. One of the 15 captured personnel was Leading Seaman Faye Turney, a married mother.

"Why is the most difficult task, patrolling in the sea, given to a woman? How can you justify seeing a mother away from her home, her children? Why don’t they respect family values in the West?" He asked the British Government.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1613555.ece

[AG]

Absolutely absolutely absolutely. Other than single mothers, the widowed, and those kneecapped by financial circumstance, all mothers should spend at least the first three years at home. For those desperately uniformed idiots who suggest the fathers should be primary caretakers in the first year, read my lips: men don't have breasts. For those who are interested in knowing why mothers should stay home, read Margot Sunderland's THE SCIENCE OF PARENTING. A masterpiece.

[Mark Alexander]

Wimbledon:

How intelligent is it to have a baby, and then leave it to someone else to bring up? How intelligent is it to plant a large garden, and then leave it for someone else to weed, water, and feed it?

Working women are one thing; working mothers are quite something else.

Whilst not all mothers have the luxury of being stay-at-home-mums in this less than perfect world, at least they can try and stay as close to their babies as possible. A career at sea is not one which gives one this option. By its very nature, it necessitates long stints away from home.

Regardless of how you slice it, babies and older children need to be nurtured. Nature intended things to be that way. And none of us can argue with nature. Though these days, many people try to do so.

As far as I am concerned, I don't detect that people on this forum are "attacking" Faye at all. We are having a debate/discussion on the merits and demerits of such a scenario. The Western world needs such opinions to be aired, since there is a sickness in our society. And one of those sicknesses is this: Far too few babies are being born. The way things are going on, we shall not be able to sustain our culture. This is one of the main reasons why so many illegal immigrants have been allowed into the UK. It's all a question of demographics.

Oh, and might I say that Eleanor has done a fine job of raising this topic. I applaud her for having had the courage to raise a subject which is so controversial. A lesser journalist might have given the subject a wide berth.

[Wimbledon]

I believe that when one becomes a mother one does not only take on the responsibility for the material well-being of a child but also one has to try one's hardest to ensure that they are as happy as you can make them. Does anyone disagree with that principle? Obviously everyone's circumstances and opportunities are different but the goal should be the same - whether you are a career woman who organises decent childcare and know you would be a harridan if forced to stay at home and try your best to make your child happy in the time you have with them; or whether you are forced to work and try your best to make your child happy in the time you have with them; or whether you are a stay at home mother and try to make your child happy in the time you have with them. It seems that Eleanor Mills is writing from the assumption that Faye Turney does not share that goal and that is unfair if she does not know her or her family. If the three year old is happy (and children can be incredibly adaptable) then Eleanor has no point to argue. However, if someone who actually knows the family posts here and knows that the three year old is made unhappy by her mother's long absences then everyone's protests on this forum ring rather hollow. The ultimate decision rests with Faye as to what, if anything, to do about any such unhappiness, and it is a personal matter that we all have to wrestle with. I believe that Eleanor posted her opinion because she is frightened that Faye's child is unhappy and that has made Eleanor angry and go on the attack. But since she doesn't know that Faye's child actually is unhappy she is going on the attack from a position of ignorance - which is always going to expose her to ridicule from intelligent readers.

[Tommy Times]

Mothers should not leave their kids to go to war. Neither should fathers. Probably not sons, brothers, sisters, daughters either. After all that, it would not be fair to put all the burden on those without kin.

Let us not forget about the other side either. It is not right to bomb mothers, fathers, and children either.

In the midst of all this injustice, why single out one poor girl who made a bad choice?

[Pissed-off Reader, Dublin.]

Eleanor Mills: It really irritates me to see a personal attack on a woman in a public place like this. Feel free to criticise Faye Turney for her actions (in your own time), but do not subject her to trial by media. Or at least give her the space to defend herself. One-sided arguments like this are unprofessional in the extreme.

Maybe the mother of a three-year-old shouldn't be serving on a navy ship in the Gulf. But unless you know Faye Turney personally, how can you suppose to know a single thing about the "choices" she had to make. Not everyone, woman or man, can afford to stay home with their children. Not everyone has the education or social capital to land themselves a well-paying job down the road, with hours to suit.

Maybe Faye Turney should have landed herself a nice little column with The TImes? Then she needn't have abandoned her child, and become "the living embodiment of the deep selfishness of the modern professional woman who wants to have it all ". From where I am sitting, these read as the words of a privileged, middle-class snob.

Grow up. And don't call yourself a professional journalist until you can behave like one.

[Inpo]

Alas, the truth has been spoken. I think the solution is not at all far off. May I ask why an intelligent woman should marry such a man as is incapable of being the sole bread winner. Dont get me wrong, i do beleive women should work, but their income is merely supplementary only. Let women be more discerning in choosing a partner that can fulfil his responsibilities as a man so women can fulfill their responsibilites as wives and mothers. Remember, a man who cannot provide for his family is 'worse than an infidel and has failed the (Christian faith)'.

[Sam]

What about Dad's of three year olds? Or are you saying that a mother is so much more important to the well being of a child that its OK to put the father in harms way but child abuse to put the mother there instead? What a bunch of sexist, alpha mummy drivel.

[NearlyMummy]

Well, this all seems to have morphed from a discussion on whether mothers should follow a military career to a slanging match on the rights and wrongs of mothers pursuing any sort of paid labour at all. The increasingly personal tone seems to be making the C section thread of a couple of weeks ago look quite tame and not at all emotive. I’m not going to comment on Faye Turney or indeed any of her 14 colleagues because frankly, I think large sections of the media have lost their collective mind on this particular subject. What I will say though is that instead of focusing our vitriol on Turney or, as seems to be the case in this particular thread, eachother, why don’t we start addressing the real targets? I’ve got a few ideas to get us started. How about the ever decreasing standards in state maternity provision? Or, the obscenely low conviction levels for rape and indecent assult in the UK? I know, how about the women in countries like Iran that get stoned for adultery. Lets run that one up the flagpole shall we?

Differences of opinion make the world go round but I’m fairly sure that the increasingly vicious tone of the stay at home versus working mothers debate wasn’t what Betty Friedan had in mind.

[Mark Alexander]

It is refreshing indeed to read Eleanor's blog. It's a like a breath of fresh air! It brings sanity into a world that is increasingly looking insane!

I am so tired of mothers trying to reinvent the wheel. Let's face it: so many women don't really want to be proper mothers anymore. They choose, instead, the career path, and if they have children at all, they have one as an afterthought and, as in the case of Faye Turney, abandon that one baby to others to be raised. This is the height of selfishness! Women like Faye put their own needs and fulfilment above the needs of the baby. This is wrong!

The fact of the matter is that babies cannot bring themselves up. They need nurturing, they need love and affection, and they need to be educated in the home (informal education), as well as in the school.

Small wonder that we have so many young people going off the rails these days!

As I recall, Faye, in a short interview on the BBC website, said that she had always wanted to be in the Navy from the age of ten. Really! Many boys and girls have fantasies. Many boys at the age of ten wish to become astronauts. Only the few eventually manage to achieve their aims!

When we mature, we realise that life doesn't always offer us what we have always wanted. So we have adapt our lives to answer the needs of the day. This is called maturation and responsibility.

When a woman becomes a mother, she should put the child's needs above her own. This is normal and healthy. It is abnormal and unhealthy to put one's own needs above the child's.

One cannot help but feel a little sympathy for Faye in the circumstances she now finds herself; but it has to be said that she would have been aware of the dangers she might place herself in before going out to sea with the Navy. One therefore has to feel far more sorry for her baby than for her. It is the baby who is the real victim in all of this. One can only wonder about the emptiness that child must feel, having to live its life with an absent mother.

Faye state as much as she likes about being able to give the baby more material things when it grows up because she does that job; but to say that is to miss the point. Children need love and warmth far more than they need material goods, as nice as material goods are to have.

Women can kid themselves as much as they like, but the fact remains that there is no substitute for a stable home, especially one where the mother is present. Anyone who has been fortunate enough to be able to remember being able to come home from school to mother after a hard day at school will understand exactly what I mean. There is no substitute for a proper home, one with a mother and a father.

[Frances]

Blimey! Howls of derision! Well done you for posting an unpopular view, and one with which I have some sympathy.

It appears, however, that you're not allowed to have your own view about this, but must adhere to the "whatever a woman does we must respect her right to choose" mantra. I've just read Leslie Bennett's article in the Times today which espouses this in spades, hardly mentioning the existence of children and partners in her analysis of why women shouldn't be stay-at-home mothers. Sometimes a little selflessness doesn't make you a doormat.

My only reservation about what you said in your article is that we don't know how Faye and her family came to the decision that she would go to sea. It may be that it they discussed it in detail and considered the risks. Maybe they decided what would happen if she were to be taken in these circumstances. After all, everyone must know what an uncertain part of the world she was venturing into.

But I defend utterly your right to call it as you see it.

[Pat Craig]

Come on guys. Why are you attacking this young woman when she's in this situation. It's happened and she and her family need support not bitching over the right or wrongs of her decision to have a child while in the navy. In any case isn't it reported that she and her husband share the child care. I am not a mother (not through choice) but I am of the generation who fought for equality of opportunity and I'm sick of women sniping at each other. I still work with children and believe you me there are some stay at home mothers who shouldn't be as they take their frustration out on their children while there are many other parents who succesfully combine work and child rearing. I agree that it appeara that too many women cherry pick, taking the good and rejecting the bad but hey none of us know the circumstances behind her decisions.
These condemnations remind me of the attacks on Vietnam vets when they returned to find the world had turned against them. Don't kick a woman or indeed a man when they are down. Give her and her family a break.