How's your sex life?

Love is in the air in the past few days. Or at least, sex is.

Caitlin Moran rejoices that new research shows the best sex last between 3 and 13 minutes. A story in the Sunday Times magazine details the intricacies of marital strife since the early years of Relate, including the piquant observation that in the past 10 years the number of men who have gone off sex has risen dramatically. And a friend of mine recently confided that she and her husband rarely have sex - neither of them want it after a hectic day.

So it seems sex has become shorter, rarer and - for many married couples - a lot less fun.

Gloria Steinen reportedly said, "A liberated woman is one who has sex before marriage and a job after." Is a satisfying sex life after marriage or children possible?

Opinion Polls & Market Research

Comments

[J]

CJ
Go to the GP with him. Good luck.

[CJ]

I have been with my husband for thirty years. We have always had a wonderful sex life,exciting fun. However I have to be honest, lately he's been a little off sex. Why I dont know? I am attractive, I look after myself, I was/am a good catch, so what happened? We are so madly in love with each other, but I WANT our sex life back, lets hope he wants the same thing to:)

[Christine]

I've been on holiday the past week and unfortunately have missed the high heels part of this thread! Which is a shame, as I'm a 'the higher the better' advocate and would rather spend a lifetime in 5inch heels than without!
MuMoftwo: I've also dated a guy with a shoe fetish. he opened my eyes to other alternatives to wearing heels on your feet! LoL
As you said though, that's another story...

[supermother]

Someone asked me about the list of the 100 most powerful lawyers. 12 were women." so even if women were grossly under-represented at the meeting with the prime minister you mentioned the other day there is at least some recognition in the legal field". There were no women top bankers at the Brown meeting. None whatsoever. The list of 100 is not those with equity (sharing profits) in the best law firms either. Although it's true 10% at the top of law firms female (of that's the right stat) might be better than 1% leading top FTSE companies, if it even reaches 1% and 0% leading the C of E or one female Court of appeal judge in the land I think it is. I don't blame men particularly. I think it's women's hormones and womens choices combined with a bit of social pressure and upbringing issues. I do think it might be helpful to follow the lead of Norway and Spain and have a fixed percentage of women on boards though. It would help a lot. There are very talented women out there who don't get a chance and need to come up by some route other than a conventional one.

[mmmm]

Ah, Jilly Cooper... in my darkest hours of romantic dissapointments I have muttered grimly that she has a lot to answer for, handy to blame her for my unrealistic expectations! Yes she did come out with a lot of stuff like eating apples in bed etc., but somehow easier to take from her even when she was semi-seriously trying to write advice manuals, because it was just the opinion of one person, who is obviously a hopeless romantic. Cosmopolitan's veneer of feminism, hiding a deeply corporate and conservative heart was far more sinister. But then, in the 70's, or even now, women might have been writing these articles, but who owned the big publishing houses do you think?

Back to lovely Jilly Cooper, I read Riders and so on, but really much preferred the shorter romantic novelettes, Bella, Prudence etc. I always wanted to marry Cory Erskine. Still do in fact!

[Lazy Mummy]

Nah, Jilly Cooper's a bit before my time (though I did read Riders or something when I was a teenager).

[Delilah]

Remember Jilly Cooper advising eating apples in bed so that one's mouth didn't taste like a parrot's cage the morning after?

[mmmm]

Don't know whether this is best posted on this blog or the one about self-help books where we discuss women's magazines, but...

some chilling beauty/relationships advice I once read in an out of date book, one of those women's 'manuals'.... the actual book is in my loft and I can't get it down, I've paraphrased the middle bit but I swear the significant words are exactly right, I've never forgotten them:

Advice on coping when first cohabiting with a man (in general described very coyly), and therefore getting used to waking up with him:

'usually you shouldn't have to [wear make up to keen man interested] but if you're newly bedded, and he still notices, it's only kind to put some blusher on first thing in the morning...'

This was in the Cosmopolitan Survival Guide, written in 1976! 1976!!!

[Annamac]

Anyone checked the ingredients of their lipstick? Apparently regular makeup-wearers ingest 2lbs of it during their lifetime. Yum!

[Annamac]

Oh no!
"Listed causes of premature aging include "the habit of emotional storms. No woman over thirty can afford the luxury of an emotional upset more than once a year because of the injurious effect upon her nerves and the glands that keep her young".
No wonder I look 102...

[Delilah]

I have a makeover book published in 1939 - "You're Only Young Twice" by Doree Smedly- who was transformed by (American) Good Housekeeping Magazine from an extremely miserable-looking 1930's housewife (grim black-and-white photos of an overweight Olive Oyl) into a cheery young Queen Mother lookalike. In between fantastic chapters with titles like "Fur Coats For Everyday Living" and "The "Young Hat" Quandrary" she advises:

On makeup: "Good makeup can't be seen across the dining table"

On high heels: "the hip-heavy figure" should avoid heels that cause even a little teetering. Along with some surprisingly New Age observations about the connections between feet and general health, she recommends regular foot-ups (rise up on your toes) during the day and cold foot baths in the evening.

On figure: get a corset to redistribute your curves and try to stick to 1600 calories a day for at least 3 months.

Listed causes of premature aging include "the habit of emotional storms. No woman over thirty can afford the luxury of an emotional upset more than once a year because of the injurious effect upon her nerves and the glands that keep her young".

And in general, she observes:

"women of this age group [35-45] have lived through catclysmic social upheavals during the past twenty-five years, and bear the scars of these changes. Most of them were born or raised during the peaceful prewar era when a woman was usually considered fragile, impractical, and in need of guidance. When the ribald nineteen-twenties came along, women were suddenly expected to become self-sufficient, resourceful, with the ability to hold a man's job, drink like a trooper, and calmly accept a changed moral standard. Then came the depression. These same women found themselves obliged to discard the brittle sophistication of the speakeasy era and adapt themselves to the realities of poverty, insecurity, hard labour, and for many the complete absence of small luxuries and pleasures for months and years - an experience for which they had no philosophical preparation. Today they face a world in which all familiar codes and standards are being swept away, with no new ones defined. A chronic state of anxiety is almost inevitable."

This with WWII just around the corner! It makes the complaints of babyboomers today seem a bit overblown.

[Rachel]

supermother - just wondered if you'd seen the times list of the 100 most powerful lawyers. 12 were women. so even if women were grossly under-represented at the meeting with the prime minister you mentioned the other day there is at least some recognition in the legal field

[supermother]

I suppose one question is whether the flat shoes/dungarees or burkha or the look of the Jewish orthodox lady I saw with her husband on the tube today which along the same lines is the true freedom for women, bodies hidden able to be appreciated for who they are not how they look or not. I suppose within that is another issue - some of that kind of clothing - burkha, Victorian women's corsets/clothes is so constricting even though modest that it curbs you in how you can be and there is a loss of freedom in that. which then turns full circle into the loss of freedom I suppose I had today in my rather nice heels. So the dungarees/Mao suit clothing that gives women freedom but does not make them sex objects is presumably the best politically to wear....

But then I quite like men looking down my cleavage etc. so I don't think the burka or even dungarees look would do for me.

[Kieransmum]

Maybe I would be more inclined to wear high heels if the preschool run didn't involve walking 1.6 miles, most of it along an untarred road.
The Boy gets puddles. I get a good view.

[mumoftwo]

I've got 3 1/2 inch heels on today, I find I walk better and more confidently in them, however, obviously they are only for striding round the office, not striding across the moors.

As for being in the 'clever' category, I thought I'd never escape! When I hit 18, grew my hair long, wore contacts and attractive clothes, people from my old school failed to recognise me. I have to say that being labelled 'interesting' was a real burden, but I might have gone too far the other way for a while in playing down my brain and playing up my looks; it's only in my thirties where I feel secure enough to appear not quite so looks oriented and a bit more intellectual.

[Annamac]

And as for the makeup issue: the key word is "subtle", SM. So not all makeup-wearers earn more. Those looking like "rock-chicks" will be sent to the back of the queue, no?

[Annamac]

Mmm, well, the theories cited by SM on the reasons for lack of height hold good in the case of my husband, a working-class Scot. But not at all for my father (I am a downwardly mobile posho).

[Lazy Mummy]

"I used to think at school that you could be clever *or* sexy- but I also thought that you had to be clever *or* sporty.

Both rubbish of course"

I bet lots of us thought that when we were younger, too. I remember being put in the "clever" category & there I stayed until sometime in my 20s. Sad, isn't it, how those childhood labels stick with us?

Re: shoes, wow, J, how do you walk in 4-inch heels? Even just to the loo?

[supermother]

Sarkozy is pretty short but in general taller men earn more. It probably is because if you're very short (talking here about white and been here for a few generations) you're probably Celtic/ an Irish immigrant from the 1840s or were malnourished from a poor home and if you're very tall you're upper class. I don't know - I just read the study somewhere. I suspect it doesn't apply to women because men like them to be shorter so it won't be so relevant to alpha mummies unless they're husband picking I suppose.

As for women who wear make up earn more...

"It pays to make-up: women who wear subtle make-up earn 23% more than sisters who go without according to the Hamermesh-Biddle project. Make-up emphasises eyes and mouth (the primary means of communication), but beware to avoid the rock-chick look."
http://www.totaljobs.com/Content/Interviews/Interviewsdressing.html

Just the first hit I found. There are lots of others.

[Delilah]

Aren't short people supposed to get further through sheer personality? I was just puzzling over a really quite damning article in yesterday's Washington Post about John McCain and his alleged temper tantrums. One tantrum allegedly resulted from his discovery that the television footage of a very successful rally had only captured half his face, apparently because someone hadn't supplied a milk crate for him to stand on. And don't get me started on Tom Cruise...

[mumoftwo]

It's a good point, Lisa, that we can't expect our children to be our clones, not least in the make-up and clothing department. I am an utter departure from my mum's no make-up/sensible shoe approach (I blame the lack of a Girl's World when growing up on my make-up fixation) although increasingly as she ages, I think how great she looks without make-up and would actually be quite pleased to not to feel I have to make so much of an effort. I do now have no make-up days (still few and far between) which for me is quite an achievement as I really never did go out without make-up for about twenty years (except to hospital). It is fun to play with your appearance and all that that brings in terms of attention, but it can be a bit of a burden if you don't feel you can stop doing it (I don't wear make-up at home in front of my husband/family, though, that's my 'off' time)

[Lisa]

I loooooove wearing high heels, make-up, have a very close relationship with my hairdresser and so on, while my mother is like a lot of the posters here (sensible, practical shoes). My sister-in-law is the same as my mother, and when she was pregnant with my niece she used to say "if this baby's a girl, she's going to be a tomboy, wear dungarees, climb trees etc." and she had my niece. Who, at the age of two, picked up my make-up bag and ponced (there's no other word that describes it) around the living room. She loves everything to be pink, fluffy and sparkly. she has long long blonde hair. But then she also likes jumping around, wrestling dogs ... she's just very content and happy about who she is. It is quite bizarre though that this happens with alternating generations. No doubt I'll have a daughter who will be appalled by the high heels, make-up and hair and will use my mother's favourite words "sensible and practical" when describing what clothing should be like.

[Annamac]

Thanks for the that, J! I guess I should just be happy that we are content to be vanillists.
SM, I'm intrigued, where are the stats showing that women who wear makeup earn more money? (If it's true, I'd better start putting some slap on to compensate for the lack of heels - and the fact that I'm married to a short man and am the offspring of a short man. Doomed to a life of impoverishment, me.)

[J]

agree about gay etc SM, I was just trying to cheer annamac up.

me..I like about 3-4 inches on my heels. detest kitten heels and mid-height court shoes.

I think I like having the option of heels, on my own terms.

[supermother]

I don't know. I'm not happy with labels like normal because people differ and I would hope if you're gay we can all see that as normal as any other sexuality just as if you share Max Moseley's preferences I don't see why that can't be regarded as part of the normality of the broad spectrum which is human sexuality.

High heels, sex, women, hobbling, how women dress are all very interesting important issues. Women who wear make up tend to earn more. But plenty of women and men manage to get ahead by adopting the sartorial style of John Prescott or Gwyneth Dunwoody and I hope that always remains a possibility in the UK.

I do see this from the younger end too with 3 children at university and applying for jobs. I am sure good looks and knowing how to present yourself does make a difference at entry level for many jobs. You are allowed in the UK to discriminate at work against people who are fat or stupid or badly dressed. I am not conflating those 3 things by the way. I give a lot of talks and I meet a lot of people. There is a huge divide between looks and appearance if they are from say a local authority or hospital compared with the City, not just in money spent on clothes either but also on intrinsic looks. The taller you are as a man in the UK the higher your pay is likely to be.

So what is the verdict on high heels? I wear them because I like them. I quite enjoy the constriction that they bring, the way I'm treated differently because of them. I'm probably more of the Fay Weldon school of thought than other feminists perhaps.

[J]

Annamac that would be called "normal"
;)

[Annamac]

Bah, just realised I probably conflated a couple of threads again. I give up, this blogging lark's way too complicated for me (sigh). Am probably still in shock about some of the posts on this thread. Is there an expression for a sex-life that is more vanilla than vanilla? (OK, don't all shout "Boring" at once)...

[J]

I used to think at school that you could be clever *or* sexy- but I also thought that you had to be clever *or* sporty.

Both rubbish of course. Surprising how long it has taken me to get over it. Sadly I have managed heels and makeup long before I have managed proper sport.

Though if you are clever then dressing very well either really impresses people or they cant take it and you have to tone down your intellect in their company. Which is OK at parties but impossible at work.

I am also entering the high risk period where my male colleagues are starting on their mid-life crises, and I need a drooling colleague like a bucket of porridge over my head, so there are times when I dress mumsy on purpose.

[Kim]

Oh, that wasn't against Fay Weldon, that was against Suzanne Moore. Germs has never got on terribly well with her fellow-feminists.

[Delilah]

Enjoyed your post SM. Heels are fun to wear sometimes but crocs don't make my back hurt or sink into soft mud. I remember having to explain to my mother in my twenties that if I dressed too smartly or expensively my intellectual friends would despise me. No matter that all of us were spending a king's ransom every week on booze and taxi fares. Once I got into my late thirties that issue seemed to evaporate and looking smart or expensive suddenly seemed to be OK. Perhaps the intellectuals had bartered their principles for cash by then. Also, the rapid degeneration in appearance after 35 of the die-hard clothes and makeup refuseniks panicked the rest of us into getting with the program.

I still have uneasy memories though of Germaine Greer's feminist polemic against Faye Weldon: "Bird's nest hair ... fuck-me shoes ... brain rotted by lipstick".

[Annamac]

I have never cared for uncomfortable footwear and I hate to be hobbled. The ability to walk in spindly high heels is something I just don't have. And so I therefore have no love of this kind of footwear. Which saves me loads of money. Can't walk the dog in Louboutins, anyway. I'd probably agree with heels being "an instrument of oppression" if there was a poll (cf. SM's earlier post) - despite the fact that I am v. small.

On the subject of the division of household labour, I confess I find it difficult to delegate. After I divorced my first husband, I rather enjoyed the fact that it soon became clear that the only thing he had done around the house that I couldn't do was reach things in the highest kitchen cupboards without standing on a chair. I currently do all the admin in our house (everything is in my sole name) and for our business, I do all the work in the garden, including heavy-duty hard landscaping, all the icky bits of looking after children and animals including vomit clearance and I put the rubbish out. My (much older) husband currently spends more time earning money than I do and is good with power tools and far, far better at playing with little children than I am. He wafts around dispensing sweetness and light and demonstrating infinite patience. I rush around shrieking and gnashing my teeth like a terrier with its tail on fire. Strangely, I like the way it is now. Perhaps because it is the polar opposite of my first marriage.

[Baggofbones]

KM - I have no clothes sense either. My sister inherited all the clothes-sense genes (and has no children - hence she can actually afford to buy and wear cream cashmere coats!) I also subscribe to the pretty-without-bothering theory (just as well, really).

My daughter, though, is deeply in love with her plastic clippy-cloppy shoes (she can even walk down stairs in them, which is more than I could ever do). She teams them with a vivid pink Barbie Dancing Princesses dress. Is she rebelling against my sensible clothes and footwear at the age of three?

[Kieransmum]

I've never liked high heels. Perhaps as I get older it will change. But I have always taken the view that I was pretty anyway, so that heels wouldn't make much difference (also I have no clothes sense to speak of so the down-at-heel SAHM look suits me down to the ground).

[Baggofbones]

Yes, I liked Supermother's post, too.

It does remind me that I used to possess (and wear) some very high heels when I had a job in academia. I felt that there were so many women with beards around the university that the girls might appreciate a role model who was attractive and well dressed (not that I want to insult my bearded sisters, naturally).

This was probably a rather silly and patronising "making-a-point" stance on my part (especially silly as, when I was pregnant, I made the mistake of taking off my v high heeled boots at lunchtime, and then had to lie on my back on the floor with my legs in the air to reduce the swelling in my ankles and feet sufficiently to get them back on again!!)

Since having children, I have given the same boots to the charity shop, along with anything that isn't flat, machine washable, and modesty-preserving when retrieving children who are stuck at the top of climbing frames.

[J]

I walk to work in my pumps and have a filing cabinet full of heels for work. Also makes them last longer- but I do get sneered at by the girls at the school busstop as I lurch past in my flats :)

[Kim]

Well, it's nice to have a bit of equivocation from you, SM. Thanks for an honest post.

For me, it's easy. I live in trainers. They're good and comfortable, and I have no desire to hobble myself in high heels. Even if I'm going out (not very often) I wear fairly low heels - I can't walk in high ones.

[supermother]

It's a very big issue, the shoe thing. In a sense you're a better alpha mother if you don't kow tow to norm of how women should look - contrast the late Gwyneth Dunwoody and some of the Blair Babes (dreadful performance on Any Questions this week by one - you wonder how some of there people got into Government).

I think British women get it just right, actually, not so bothered about tooth whitening, having expensive hair styles and the like. You might prefer Carla Bruni in bed with you to Sarah Brown but I think I know who I'd rather live with.

On the other hand I find it quite fun to be better or more over dressed than other people. It's may be a bit of a power or sex game, I'm not sure. I'll go to something and 100% of the other women will be in black trousers and I'll have a shirt and heels on. Just makes me feel good.

I suppose this post just reveals my equivocal feelings on the subject. Perhaps now I know what I've achieved etc then I feel happy to play the looking good, slightly sexy, high heels etc bit. Whereas when I was younger and had no power or money and was competing on merit I found the high heels make up issue much harder to accept internally for feminist reasons. Now it doesn't matter it's just a bit of fun or am I kicking all women in the teeth by adopting the clothing and make up restrictions which hold women down, waste their time and money and make them at a disadvantage to men in terms of the time they then spend on themselves compared to men?

(Mind you I've always thought looked good even without effort so that helps - by that I either mean my always having fooled myself into being convinced I look good or else that I do look good)

[Lazy Mummy]

Absolutely not! I love shoes, but mostly I live in my flats & hiking boots or wellies for the garden.

[Baggofbones]

Oh dear. Will I be even less of a supermother if I say that I possess one pair of shoes and one pair of (walking) boots - both flat, and both from Clarks?
I don't possess any make-up either.
But, Mumoftwo, I did have a Phil and Ted's double buggy, which pushed its way up many a steep, rocky hill with my two in it (and if you can imagine Kylie Minogue pushing two huge toddlers who take after their former-rugby-playing father up Mount Everest, you have imagined me with my Phil and Ted's!! What's more, I sold it for £180 on eBay despite the fact that it was in pretty bad condition and advertised as such... which makes it a bit of a bargain.)

[Lazy Mummy]

I've heard that, but I know that I've never been really comfortable in anything over 2.5 inches - I'm just too wobbly (and too prone to injury). Though I did buy some 3 inch stilletos for a wedding recently and danced all night in them with no repercussions. Quite surprised myself, actually!

[supermother]

High heels tone the stomach too as you walk... apparently.

More expensive shoes can last longer. I've spome Christian Dior stillettos which must be into year4 or 5 now and had new heels last year and they still look great.

[Lazy Mummy]

I love shoes but they don't love me (on & off chronic foot injuries since having the baby). Mostly these days I wear fairly flat shoes with orthopedic insoles but as I managed a pair of 3 inch stilletos for a wedding last month (even dancing the gay gordons in them), I'm hopeful that I'm finally on the mend! Wouldn't pay Louboutin-type prices though, as for one thing the shoes are too high for me. Fortunately, there are some brands these days that are stylish and fairly comfortable as I refuse to wear "granny" looking shoes (by which I mean my granny's generation). (Current fave: red knee-length boots with kitten-heel).

[mumoftwo]

My mum told me when I was pregnant with my first child that I'd have to start wearing sensible shoes to chase after the children (she also mentioned having no time to apply make-up...) After having my first child and feeling completely at sea with the whole thing, I clung to my heels and make-up as one of the only things I knew was me! I always wear heels for everything except walking boots for proper walking (now quite rare as pushchairs don't go up the hills very easily) and flipflops for the last few months of pregnancy when I can't get any shoes onto my swollen feet. It has taken me over a year to slim my legs down enough to get into all my lovely boots, but it was worth the wait. Having said that, I am not going to get a pair of the new hilariously high platform stilettos as even I have my limits for work, although for out of work, perhaps. BTW, Christine, I once went out with a man who had a shoe fetish, but that's a whole other story...

[Gipsy]

I had a wonderful pair of stilettos once that I wore till they fell apart. The heel to toe ratio was perfect - they were perfectly balanced and an absolute joy to walk in. I have flat feet, and very wide feet. These shoes provided the best arch support I've ever had!

However, I now just stick to comfy flats and usually just wear hiking boots as I find that the support for my ankles is needed (have arthritis).

[supermother]

It always interests me why some women will wear heels and others not and what leads to those decisions. I don't have spare money to spend on lots of shoes and I'm not a shoe addict like some women but I would always have 3 or 4 pairs of nice high heels and winter boots. The most amusing image was when we arrived in the ski resort in December and I was not exactly correctly shod but it was only a tiny walk to the hotel with a case. The high heeled boots and I survived.

And some women never wear heels. I've never seen my sister in a pair once.

[Kieransmum]

(Kieransmum looks mournfully at her sensible flat Marks and Spencer shoes)

[Christine]

J. All you need are a couple of pairs of really thick socks, and voila! New'ish' pair of designer heels for your pleasure! Seriousy though, not sure any alphamummies were keeping hteir eyes on their shoes, but a couple of months ago a man was on trial for stealing women's shoes on the streets! So you can never be too careful!

[j]

C if I wasn't a size 5 I'd be very tempted to lie in wait myself as a good way to get some seriously killer heels for nothing while you are off catching your toddler ;)

[Christine]

J. They're expensive, but really worth it! Not sure whether you've noticed, but I have a thing for shoes! Luckily, my work is enough to pay for my stiletto addiction and quells any outburst my hubby might have when he realises I paid more for a pair of shoes than he has for the latest gadget. A discussion then ensues as to the merit and 'shelf life' of said products at which point I ask him if he'd rather I wore flat shoes instead and that normally terminates the conversation. I'm lucky he doesn't realise there are shops like Dune/Kate Kuba/River Island or New Look that make stilettos far more economically.
SM. Twins! Goodness, I'm petrified of the thought! You're absolutely deserve your 'Super' if you can deal with two and wear stilettos. I had a few comical (for passers by) incidents where I've either ended up barefoot chasing him or on the floor. Luckily, no one has stolen my shoes as I chase my little one down the street… However I have read alarmingly that there are people who are into that sort of thing!

[supermother]

Nice image, C. I thought I was the only one who managed toddlers wearing heels. It's fun except I had twins who then run in different directions.

High heels deserve their own thread on this site a instrument of oppression of women akin to foot binding or legitimate power tool in the true ascent of womanhood. I'd probably go with the latter.

[j]

I think the Louboutins are even more exotic than the fetishes..*how* much do those things cost? and you are wearing them to do childcare?

wow :)

[Christine]

Gypsy, having size 7 feet helps! Not to mention lots of practice and a strong shoulder to hang on to! I've worn heels most of my adult life and tend to wear 4inch stilettos to work, so I'm quite comfortable and able to walk with more vertiginous styles, though I had a little difficulty continuing my high heel fetish when our little one had enough of his pram and preferred to walk. With his tiny legs however, it doesn't take long before he's begging mamma to carry him the rest of the way! Not something that's recommended when wearing 4inch louboutins. I'd say that scenario is more precarious than the walking on the uneven walkways of soho!

[supermother]

For the record by the way I am not suggesting people seek good sex other than with their partner. I don't think that makes most people happy. It's been my theme of the week, from the friend wanting advice (choice between wife or lover) to two men, yes,two not even one, one of whom I thought I was getting on very well with both saying by the way they're married (and I am not remotely interested if that is so). You begin to wonder if anyone is ever faithful at all.

But certainly there are a lot of married people male and female out there getting some pretty good sex other than with their spouse. I don't think it's at all easy for some people as suggested below - that if you aren't happy you leave. Marriage is an institution which is important for all kinds of reasons as well as the love between the original couple. Some people make agonising choices to stay with their spouse and children. Of course they could just try to keep their underpants/knickers up and then they wouldn't get themselves into these messes in the first place but it's easier for some than others. There are more asexuals in the uK than homosexuals by the way and they don't have these issues because they hardly ever think about sex at all.

On the question of sex below I don't think it was the case in the past that people didn't think it was so important and now it is. I think it's a key issue in relationships in all couples now, in the 1500s, abroad and everywhere. A very few very rich people might have married to ensure succession but I bet your average 1500s UK peasant got together with his girl at 15 or 16 in large part for sex and I'm sure she enjoyed it as much as he did. But I agree it's by no means the only issue that matters. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. It's just a lot of marriages you get someone (usually the wife after children) saying sex doesn't matter to us and we have it once a month or we gave up that kind of thing years ago, and you know perfectly well it's a massive issue for her husband and she'll be lucky he hasn't sought it elsewhere. of course she may not want it with him because of the way he treats her and other things but that doesn't mean it's not important.

[Gipsy]

J, I've no problems with shopping in places like Ann Summers or Agent Provocoteur. Doesn't embarrass me at all. However, you won't ever see me walking around in a latex miniskirt and 6 inch heels (mainly because I don't have the legs or figure and I'd wreck an ankle in the first step. In fact, being very familiar with Soho - because I worked at a media company in Soho - I have to ask Christine, how on earth did you manage to walk about without breaking your leg or neck!).

[Christine]

Having read Kieransmum's post and more importantly re-read my own, I can see the way I worded the last few sentences could cause a bit of a alarm! Let me reitorate! I enjoy going with my husband to a few more fetish-orientated shops in soho, rather than the high-street friendly variety. We make it a day out of those trips and depending how appropriate it might be, I might wear recent purchases on my way home. Thankfully, that doesn't mean getting in the Tube or taking the bus!

[j]

eek
My question wasnt so much about what do we all buy (though v interesting...) but how far are we embarrassed to shop in such places on the high street, even if we know perfectly well that are married so its supposed to be OK.

I think what I am seeing is a definite preference for privacy and on-line shopping.

One of the unsung benefits of being SAHM is you are possibly there when they deliver and dont have to ask the neighbours....one of my friends has got so embarrassed by that, she's installed a wall box for deliveries when she's out.

[Kieransmum]

Christine, you've silenced us all!

[Christine]

Ann Summers is a little too tame for me. ;-) I enjoy shopping for lingerie there occasionally, but prefer Agent Provocateur for exquisitely designed frilly things! Myla is also very good and they've opened a shop near my work which I very convenient! I prefer more risqué shops and have been seen on occasion with Hubby in the seedier parts of Soho tottering in 6 inch heels and latex mini skirt! Seriously though, there is a really great fetish shop which is user friendly in Soho called Paradiso Bodyworks. Gorgeous clothes and shoes for the non-sensitive types.

[Lazy Mummy]

Btw, I just realised the survey is missing one key category which should be something like "the ovulation predictor kit says not until Thursday at 3pm" (OK, it has a limited audience, but I tell you, the number of couples I know who are / have been trying/timing things for a kid, it's, well, a lot).

[Lazy Mummy]

Seriously Delilah? Not in latte-liberal-land (or do I just give off the wrong vibes?). Maybe it's time to move to the 'burbs for some real eye-openers...

[Delilah]

This is America, you don't go to Ann Summers you buy stuff from a desperate housewife who makes quite a lot of money doing multi-level marketing parties where she sells vibrators and knickers and wierd lick-off chocolate toys to tipsy fellow DHs while her hubby cowers in the basement. I was invited to one three days after moving to a new neighbourhood, it was an odd way to get to know everyone.

[Kieransmum]

order online, use your husband's credit card and he will be inundated with email offers of inappropriate things forever (tee-hee)

[Rachel]

just order on-line (and hope no-one else opens the parcel)

[Lazy Mummy]

Fortunately they don't have Ann Summers here in the States so no dilemma! I recommend figleaves.com (or .co.uk), especially if (like me) you know your size in one or two favourite brands and can more or less assume their stuff will fit. (Unless you want to embarrass your colleagues).

[j]

heh heh you are wonderfully devious many thanks :)

Cue next Q: who else is too chicken to go into their local Ann Summers in case they meet their colleagues on the way out (or worse, inside)?

[Delilah]

Crikey, just tell him direct. Ideally in front of his friends....

Seriously, for teens the graphic novel or soft-porn artistic coffee table book (you know, Meatloaf album cover sort of thing, scantily-clad fairies done with blowpens) is definitely the way to go. Manga seems quite popular with the yoof. Whether you get a few in yourself and leave them lying around or encourage an graphic novel/magazine habit that eventually leads to the top shelf ... matter of style, really. But always sexier than a photo. My kids are being weaned into the excellently-drawn Meridien comics and will hopefully move on from there; with luck they'll not find my secret collection of Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers mags (subversive rather than pornographic) until they are quite a bit older.

Or find some sexy novels (ideally second-hand) on a variety of intriguing subjects, put them in a cardboard box with some boring ones and say they were given to the PTA, you're too busy to look at them could he go through them and work out what's worth taking to Oxfam. Cue secret stash or conversational moment, as he prefers.

[Kieransmum]

You were reading Cosmopolitan in the supermarket checkout queue.

[Annamac]

Tell him some middle class mummies you know told you about it. That should do it.

[j]

very pleased to hear organic porn exists and even more pleased to hear alphamummies agree that they should use no other kind..

now I need a plausible way to tell Child A without betraying that I know *anything* about porn..any ideas?

[Christine]

Norah: I totally agree. Its work, but not in the sense of being cumbersome or draining. Its like when you're cooking, you could keep making the same meal over and over again until you became sick of it, or you could add some embellishments. A bit more spice here, a little bit of herbs there… Oops, what a terrible analogy! Hah, sex is like food, you need to spice it up now and again! Whether that's porn/fantasies/costumes/fetish etc..etc..

[Norah]

exhaustion plays a huge role in not wanting to have a sex life but you have to make an effort or else...you have to get creative, use every tool, a book, toy, costume, whatever it takes.
marriage is hard work, it is not meant to be a walk in the park.

[Christine]

Sorry, although I'm open-minded about most things, I do not understand or condone relationships outside marriage. The thought of it is absolutely sickening. Let me make it clear that I'm not religious either, so please don't mistake my opinion as religious zeal. If you've met someone whom you love, and have spent years with that person and after growing to know them, respect and care for them you both decided to live with each other for the rest of your lives and get married... that contract, that understanding, that mutual respect between two people should be forever bound. Granted, that view is slightly romanticised and I'm a woman of the world and understand that some fairytales come to an end. Fine! Get a divorce and move on with your life! Don't be a coward skulking behind your partner's back seeing other men/women for the sake of your 'love' for the family or your husband. I'm sorry, this isn't a specific attack on anyone, I just truly believe that if you make this commitment, you should stick to it. If it's no longer working, then break it off.

I love my husband and my son more than life itself. If I ever began to have doubts about my love for my husband, or started having thoughts of going elsewhere for sexual gratification, I would speak to him immediately. Things should NEVER be allowed to get that far that you end up seeing other men, whilst still in a marriage.... uhhhh! Gross!!!

SM: Fair enough about not wanting to discuss details directly online. Me neither. I think the reason I haven't commented directly on your point about good sex 'outside' marriage is that personally I have a moral problem with it in most cases, although I can see it being the best solution where married people love each other but don't want a physical relationship. The key issue is knowledge and consent. If you don't want to sleep with your husband but are happy with him to have sex outside the marriage, then that is your choice. What I am narrow-minded and oldfashioned about is deception, primarily because of the damage that is caused when that is discovered, although sometimes I accept it can be an open secret within a stable partnership, i.e. known but never officially discussed. Like porn, it wouldn't work for me but I can see why people choose that route.

Re: sex and divorcees: I take your point about your knowing far more about a long marriage than I do!

Where I think I have concerns, NOT about your divorce because it sounds like your ex was a total shit and would have behaved badly whatever, but more in general with our social attitude to sex within marriage, is that sex can easily function as a signifier for a lot else. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard someone say "I don't know why he/she left me/our relationship hit the rocks, we had a brilliant sex life."
As if that was the only thing they really had in common, and the good sex was papering over the cracks in other areas.
It almost feels to me as if socially - having corrected the disastrous error of centuries that sex was neither important nor good - we have swung to the opposite extreme of insisting that it is almost the only, or the MOST important thing in a good marriage.

[supermother]

I try not to write about my sex life on-line so I don't see how anyone can say I have a lot of sex. In fact in studies it's found people in marriage get more sex than single people.

Ginny is the only person prepared to comment on my point that some people indeed get a lot of good sex when they're married but not from their partner. Although most people who say they aren't sleeping with their spouse just their lover are usually lying to the lover.

Divorce gives you experience of things going wrong and I suspect it gives you more empathy with people whose lives aren't working in various areas than may be the case if you've never had those kinds of problems, but I agree it certainly doesn't make you an expert on sex within marriage. However if you've had a long marriage before divorce then you certainly have experience of long marriage as much as anyone who married and stayed together and probably when you "date" various people who are more like your own age, you do get to hear more stories and gather more experience of other marriages and relationship break downs than if you perhaps have fewer of those intimate conversations with others when you're still married.

I don't want someone married but plenty of married men email me on line. A friend called me yesterday who has just after massive huge horrible agonising chosen his wife over his mistress. It's a constant issue try to root out if someone is single or not, constant problem and of course they're all saying "my wife won't let me have sex once a day or whoever much I want it" (which could be them lying through their teeth of course).

Oh. And also - coming back from having made packed lunches, and having had time to reflect - I think that just as every marriage has its seasons, so every human being has a different level of how much sex is 'normal' for them. I know for example that my grandparents had sex rarely and my parents far more often. Both couples were happily married. It is very important to feel comfortable with whatever level works for your marriage as long as you are both content, I think. This area of life shouldn't turn into a competition.
I know from my own experience that this whole area is far more satisfying and enjoyable when I stop comparing myself to some mythical athletic/body beautiful/non-stop ideal and just get on with doing what WE want, as often as we want to, when we want to.
And tastes vary so much. For example, I hated having sex when I was pregnant. Just because something is physically possible doesn't mean it's fun. But many women say it's the best sex of their lives.

[Kieransmum]

Ah, so organic porn exists. I climb off my moral high horse. Really really can't say that the idea of porn turns me on, but who am I to judge, everyone has a different way of having fun, etc etc. To me it just seems like what Madeleine Bunting puts as "tatty cardboard cut-out versions" of the real thing.

And J: the points Supermother makes are not unique to her. I have found that divorcees are ALWAYS experts on sex. And marriage. It never fails to puzzle me. Perhaps there is a website where they all get together and arrange to have twice weekly sex with other divorcees, just to keep in practice (only joking, SM). But I do think it is unfair to slate those who have sex less often. Every marriage is different, trite as that sounds it is true.

[Spell Girl]

Not that much at the moment. Too tired , too busy...the same old song. We have a two-year-old.

[B]

J and Kieronsmum - YouPorn and the like is mostly amateur porn made by exhibitionists. Organic, free-range and ethical!

[Ginny]

I have good sex, but have to agree with supermother I have it outside my marriage. I have 3 kids and my husband seems to have gone off me. My kids love him to bits and think the sun shines out of his face. I love my kids and keep up the appearance. Sex after marriage and kids is non existent, I know so many men, who don't want to be celibate but have to because their wife has gone off sex. Men need sex more than women so if he is not asking you he might be looking to get it elsewhere. Then there are the men who don't want sex and leave their women high and dry.

[J]

Gpisy, SM is always keen to make 2 points: (a) all FTM are selling sex just like prostitutes and (b) she has lots of sex herself.

In this case I think her keenness to make these points yet again has led her to dismiss the very real ethical problems of porn, probably for effect. She knows perfectly well they exist.

[Gipsy]

SM - if it was a level playing field then I wouldn't have a problem with the porn industry (of the movie and mag etc type). There simply isn't the space here to argue this, and I don't have the knowledge or ability. I do know that we don't live in a fair society where women have complete equality with men. Where there is a power imbalance there is exploitation.

[supermother]

I don't agree. Pron is great. Feminists and alpha mothers can like porn. Obviously I am not happy some girls because they are addicted to drugs or have other problems do things that are silly whether that's marrying unsuitable men or selling their bodies for heroin but that doesn't change the fact in a free market and free world women should be free to pose for pornographic pictures and be paid.

Some girl selling her body for photographs or to Elliot Spitzer for £2,500 a night or to her husband when she becomes his houswife aka sex slave - it's all the same. Women sell their bodies, some sell their services to their employers. It's commerce. It's how the world works. Men do too as escorts and models and male prostitutes except their value is less.

[Delilah]

Organic porn. In a society where we buy free-range eggs wearing oganic cotton T-shirts made for pennies by machine stitchers in Burundi who don't have any other way of feeding themselves, and travel home in a bus made from iron mined by children with pickaxes in Argentina because otherwise they'd starve and fuelled by ethanol produced by destroying rainforests and forcing the indigineous inhabitants to work for the biofuel company because they can no longer hunt or fish.

[Lisa]

I believe that Caitlin Moran, in one of her columns, emphasised the need for "organic" porn, of the sort that Jamie Oliver would approve.

There was an excellent series about the Porn Industry on Channel 4 about three years ago. It was quite sad seeing how emotionally vulnerable girls are sucked in. The worse programme was about an HIV panic that spread through the LA porn industry. One of the girls infected was from a really unstable background, had grown up in a series of foster homes, came to LA to make some money in the porn industry and get infected with HIV on her first shoot.

[Kieransmum]

Ah, Delilah, I see what you mean. Isn't that called erotica in England, as opposed to porn?

[Delilah]

Glory be, how everyone assumes porn consists of mags and films. I was actually thinking of written and graphic novels, which can be enjoyed practically guilt-free (depending on your upbringing, but then sometimes that's part of the thrill).

Perhaps alphamummies should be promoting a literary or artistic porn prize, to wean people off the exploitative type.

Incidentally, now that spring is here my desperate housewife friends are again fighting the Attack of the Vegetable Phalluses - a quirk of nature has infected an entire golf course subdivision with stinkhorn toadstools, which are each an exact replica of an erect seven-inch human penis. Hundreds appear overnight in lawns, flowerbeds and fairways (and occasionally window boxes), exuding a sticky substance from the tip that attracts hordes of flies. After a couple of days they collapse in a cloud of spores. Apparently when dug up they reveal a testicle-like root system. Every day aproned SAHMs go out with rubber gloves and trowels to rid the neighbourhood of this scourge, but every year they return with the sun. There's a very profound message in there, somewhere - not to mention the foundation for a very strange graphic novel.

[j]

KM I agree and actually feel the same way about the spin off industries such as pirated DVDs that are used to launder the funds. There is a truly appalling industry in porn which is every bit as bad as selling child brides for food (see today's Times). Yet we tut tut about wicked foreigners selling their children into sexual slavery and ignore the facts behind the porn we (well actually not me) cheerfully patronise.

Like you, I'm not against rude things and am pretty unshockable. But I agree we have a moral responsibility to spend our money and time on things appropriately. We are such a privileged sector of the world, even the poorest Westerner is doing pretty well in global and historical terms. We should use that power wisely.

I have told Child A not to buy pirate DVDs as they are unfair on artists and also are used to support organised crime. I hope that once curious teen years are over he will take an ethical view on porn as well.

Maybe alpha mummies that are determinined to do this should contribute to a porn offset scheme? £50 to a charity supporting sex slave workers for every porn film you watch? just a thought....

[Kieransmum]

Can I just say that I have a real moral objection to the idea that pornography is a healthy part of an adult sex life?
I'm not talking from a prudish standpoint (I don't think that looking at people naked is wrong) but about the appalling physical and emotional exploitation of the industry that produces it.
I don't think Alphamummies should use porn: if we are trying to set our children moral standards and try to think and buy ethically in other ways (e.g. freerange eggs) what on earth are we doing allowing material which is produced in such a gruesomely exploitatively way into our houses?

[j]

The fittest people I know now at my advanced age (ie with teenaged children so have been through the "when do I exercise" thing for enough years for any original pre-baby fitness to have worn off) do running. Some work and they run in their lunchbreak. Many more run at 6am before they (or their employed husband) go to work. I am bracing myself for the thought of joining them- it seems the only thing to do if you have a fulltime responsibility such as pre-school children or a job outside the home.

[Christine]

I have 2 days in the week, in which a nanny will look after my 2yr old for 2 hours. That's when I head to the gym for some exercising. I keep telling myself to go once on the weekend also, but I never really manage it! I think twice a week is alright for keeping yourself toned. Hubby doesn't seem to complain! Also when I'm unable to get a nanny, there's a nursery at the Gym, so problem solved.

I think 2-3 times a week is healthy. Anything below that, would make me unhappy and I tend to get extremely ratty if I spend a few days without sex.

Delilah: I've never really understood how pornography will improve sex life. It doesn't really do anything for me. Luckily we're quite imaginative and enjoy exploring different realms of the unaccepted side of kink.

[supermother]

How do you fit in exercise? It depends what exercise is for you. We walk to school every day (although it's not far). I spend about 4 hours mowing the lawn, gardening etc. I try to get to a 90 minute bikram yoga class when I can. We used to walk a lot with the baby in the sling, years ago. When I went back to work with the first few babies I always cycled to the tube station every day which was regular exercise. I think those things are more sustainable and probably more ethically found and justifiable in terms of family and resources and money than gym type exercise. And the thinnest fittest people are apparently those who don't sit still, who sit and drum their fingers on the desk, who are up and down all the time. Whilst others are slumped in a chair at home or at work.

[j]

OTOH Lazymummy when the children are older you will be the envy of *your* friends because you will exercise as a family and your kids will run, do sport and generally be fit. Whereas I have set a terrible example and Child A who is the only one able to do sports anyway, does the absolute minimum he can get away with.

[Lazy Mummy]

(OK, no, obviously they're not all porkers, but y'all know what I mean...)

[Lazy Mummy]

J- I'm jealous, would love to live somewhere where I could walk to work; alas, American cities outside NYC not designed for such lifestyle (no wonder they're all porkers).

Glad "exercise life" got such a response; it's something that seriously stresses me out (not getting it) since having a child. I sneak out a couple of lunchtimes a week to a pilates class but worry that I'll be missed for too long (90 mins, including commute time). Though don't know why I worry when others are more brazen about it. I do know it's the first thing to get dropped from our schedules when pressured (eg this week when my husband is out of town & I'm in a new job) and the thing that keeps us most sane when it happens. So - barring getting up at 5am (unrealistic for me) - how else do people handle it?

[Delilah]

Bad body blues - as an intermittent sufferer I suggest the following:

Exercise - instills a sense of wellbeing and health (v. sexy) and apparently as effective as Prozac in improving mood.

Dieting if you need it and it works.

Makeup and grooming and clothes. If you look good with your clothes on, you'll feel better about taking them off.

Everyday lingerie which covers imperfections, lifts assets and generally instills a sense of occasion. Hooray for the spaghetti-strap vest.

Pornography. Amazing how the right material (and everyone's different) can make you overlook your own imperfections and even those of your partner.

Remember how dumpy and hausfrau a lot of successful prostitutes are. (Is that helpful? it helps me).

Tentatively, plastic surgery. No, really. Why be brave and pretend not to care if it's making you miserable and there is a fairly routine surgical procedure that can fix it. I've seen women's mental and physical health restored by it, for less surgical risk than a Caesarean. Tummy tucks, breast lifts, facelifts, varicose vein surgery, bariatric surgery and even limited liposuction are now fairly routine. My friend's French doctor took her completely seriously when (through mispronouncing the word for something entirely different) she asked for treatment for her wrinkles - from his standpoint, this was no odder than asking for a treatment for piles. Of course it's an insane allocation of the world's resources, but so is most of what we eat and what we wear.

[supermother]

1. To whoever said they hardly ever had sex and it didn't matter are you really really sure it doesn't matter to either of you? If you really wanted it you'd make the time even if you carve it out of sleep time or when he gets home at 9pm because the children are already in bed.

2. Exercise life.... goo d phrase that made me laugh. Some sex can be pretty athletic. Can't that be part of an exercise life? There are ways to add moving into a day even if it's just scrubbing floors on hands and knees and always walking upstairs but in a relationship I would put sex above getting time to exercise. The trouble for some people is their partner puts sex about item 100 in priority after just about everything else so it never happens.

3. Menopause - surely however you look your spouse probably doesn't look as he looked at age 20 either. Older couples have sex. Can't you just put the light out if you think your body doesn't look good? And may be it doesn't look that bad anyway and a bit of dealing with that issue of view of self might be a good idea. Plenty of very pretty young women think they look awful which is terrible. It's often an internal issue as much as how objectively they do look.

[J]

exercise life.. never had one before, why start now?

Mine is walking an hour and a half every morning, taking child B to school (a mile for both of us) and walking on to work (another 2 miles for me). only works if I have no choice.

But agree its not proper exercise.

[FAN]

Weyhey Lemmy! Live Fast, Die Old, eh? BTW how are the guys from Motorhead?

[Lemmy]

Is sex possible after marriage and kids ? Why even take a chance ? Avoid both, you'll be fine.

[Delilah]

Excercise life - the only way I got an exercise life was to get up at 5 AM to go swimming, getting back before 7 when hubby left for work (the nanny arrived before 8 and me soon after. This required a pool within walking distance and an early bedtime. Or finding 40 minutes in my commute to walk the streets briskly rather than ride a bus or train.

Contraception - I swear by my IUD. Discreet, idiot-proof, permanent, cheap (on the NHS anyway), effective, seemingly ethically sound, no effect on hormones (I have the cheaper, copper variety) and protects against uterine cancer.

Frequency - various polls of married friends reveal an average of one to three times a week. A few much less, a few much more (especially on vacations or weekends away). General consensus was that the inconvenience of sex was massively outweighed by the instant improvement in spouse mood and willingness to pick up socks and children, etc. Take home message: It's only ten minutes of your time.

Venue - haven't done it in a car, but there's another possibility. Apparently the main hot spot for teenagers over here in the Land of the Automobile - there's a lonely lane near our house which gets parked solid with beat-up second-hand cars (high school kids) after about 7 Pm. The troopers cruise the road regularly shining flashlights into the steamy windows, and taking action only if actual penetration is occuring or immanent - most of them know the parents! It's a sort of game. Perhaps we should get a babysitter and join them - with our own bottle of bootleg tequila disguised as OJ....

[Lazy Mummy]

Hi Jennifer - I retract my previous comments~I was v. tired and rather less articulate than usual (I hope). No, not indiscreet or stupid, but definitely your poll will be a more biased sample than some polls would be because not everyone (me for instance) wants to share this info - even in an anonymous poll.

Tell you what I've always been more curious about than whether people still have sex lives after children: how do they still have exercise lives when juggling 2 jobs and childcare responsibilities? (This aimed more at FTWPs than those with a SAHM/D in the equation). That's the thing we've never figured out how to handle effectively since parenthood.

[j]

In Spain etc I used to wonder how come parents could face letting their kids stay up so late and be part of the family all evening instead of saying "shove off, poppet, it's bedtime for you"- but of course they have the siesta when Mummy and Daddy come home for, er, lunch.

[Christine]

We have a 2 year old, and I must, say, once he's asleep its 'our' time. Whether that means cuddling on the sofa watching a movie, or going to the bedroom early for a little kinky fun we have time for each other every night. I can relate to the tiredness sometimes, and it might even seem like a bit of work to put yourself in the mood, but it always makes us feel good after we've made the initial effort. Like I said, being tired isn't something that comes into the equation often, and I';m a firm believer of spicing things up in the bedroom to get him to notice you. 2 times a week is our normal 'routine' though I'm much happier with 3. Also, a little bit of roleplaying and costumes does wonders to 'feeling tired'!!

[Kieransmum]

A group of us with teenies were talking at toddler group and it turned out we ALL used condoms for a variety of reasons, but predominantly because we didn't like taking the pill/didn't want to go for a longterm method in case we wanted to conceive again soon.
If you asked us again in five years, would that have changed I wonder?

[Gipsy]

Well, I think that is the problem Sarah. How do you define it? Is snuggling part of it? Is caressing? Is it more explicit sex acts? Just penetration? I reckon it is different for everyone, and different all the time as well.

Cecilia, what about the cap or diaphram? I too have the same problem with the pill. Mind you, I've not had any contraception for eight years now, as we were trying to concieve.

[Sarah]

Gipsy, yes I think you're right, however that is my problem with it - why are we defining one particular act as 'the sex bit' when surely it is only one of the things that (some) couples do during sex?

[Cecilia]

I am also a Catholic but I have sex and like it most on my fertile days, when I am "slipery" (and naughty). It's not for religion that I don't take the pill, it's that my boobs hurt and my drive disappears. So, sex is risky, I know. It's horrible to think of a married couple doing condoms, but that's it when it's dangerous.

Frequency......... I've always wondered about the others but never dared to ask. We've been married for 10 years and have 3 children 7,5 and 3. I'm a housewife (would say 7am to 9pm working hours) and my husband leaves at 8am and is early if back at 8pm, but generally 9 or 10! No, we don't have sex! Seriously, almost never! For a long time I thought this was a problem, lost my sleep over it, but now I realise it's just our reality, we are both too tired fot it. At the end of the day, I just want to colapse in bed and SLEEP!

When we manage to go out in the evening, we end up relaxing I suppose, and end up doing it after a few glasses of wine. And it's good. Oh, it is!

It varies, between 2 and 6 times a month, I would say.

what do you think?

[Gipsy]

I don't know Sarah, I just assumed they were talking about just the sex bit, otherwise how could it only take a few minutes?

[Sarah]

I'm amazed by the idea of 10 minutes or so being considered an acceptable time for sex to last. Admittedly I wouldn't want penetrative intercourse to last much longer than that without a break, as it would get uncomfortable and boring eventually, but surely we are not still defining 'sex' as penetration? For me and my partner, at least, it's only one of the things we do during sex, and sometimes we don't do it at all, it depends on the mood etc. It never occurred to me that I we were not having sex unless I was actually being 'penetrated' at the time! Have to agree with SM here - good sex is important in a relationship, and good sex is more than just 'in and out'!

[Gipsy]

LM - I voted, not telling you what I voted though :)

SM - never. I can't even imagine wanting to have a cuddle let along sex with someone other than my spouse. It just isn't in me.

Lenght of sex - about 10 minutes or even less sounds good to me at the moment. As long as that's just the sex part - I want more than 10 minutes of the cuddling, caressing etc part. To be honest, a nice snog is often about all we've got energy for these days. I think we had more sex before son hit 2 than after it. Neither of us have the energy, and it takes a lot longer to get son to bed as he gets older. I'm not a huge daylight sex person - I don't like seeing my wobbly bits wobbling. Maybe I need some Gok help.

One thing that hubs and I have always done, even when step kids were younger, was to have a long weekend once a year that is just the two of us, and that was sacrosanct. Any other time of the year, if the kids needs something or us for something, we always give up whatever we're doing. Except for that weekend. That's the August bank holiday weekend. The only time we've missed that is when son was just a few months old.

[OldLover]

I have not yet seen mention of the one major factor for some - if you are unlucky enough that your body becomes much less attractive after the menopause, despite all non-extreme efforts to control it, you may simply no longer feel able to have sex with your husband (painfully embarassing etc.). So although you are both willing in principle, it cannot be made to work. This ends up being a constant disappointment for both of you.

[Jennifer Howze]

Lazy Mummy, we don't think AM readers are stupid or indiscreet. The issue of sex is an important bit of marriage - why shouldn't we talk about it and how children impact it?

I like Delilah's suggestion of special daytime rates for parents at hotels. Perhaps that's the next incarnation of the pod hotel?

[supermother]

I do think some people, particularly women who have had children, don't realise the importance of sex in relationships. It used to be an obligation of marriage (on both sides) and I don't think there is always that view, that marriage is about giving as well as taking.

What is the percentage of those who are married who have good sex but have it with someone other than their spouse? Another angle for this thread.

[Lazy Mummy]

So, er, do the AM journos really think we'll be stupid and indiscreet enough to post responses on their poll? Would be an incredibly biased sample, I'd imagine.

Exhaustion plays a huge role in this - SM & Delilah's comments are all probably accurate. In long-term relationships, patches one way or another can last for months, seem eternal when you're in them but just a short blink in retrospect (like the first few months of infancy & the 3-4 hour waking/feeding schedule).

[Delilah]

sorry to double-post but actually thinking about it my father used to come home from work for child-free lunch (and presumably the other) as did my uncles and my grandparents. Perhaps the fundamental mistake is associating sex with darkness?

No tips for parents of small children, though. Amazing really that anyone concieves more frequently than every six years.

[Delilah]

When the youngest child started school we switched to lunchtime sex. Fortunately both of us work near enough to home and enough lunch time to get back for a quick lunch and a shag, or just a shag. Ten minutes works for me, I'm with Caitlin on this one, but of course you have foreplay/food beforehand and shower after. Then back to work. Works better than trying to rev up at midnight after a long day with a wakeful teenager on the other side of the bedroom wall and the next day's crises at the front of your mind.

Perhaps the Times should offer special deals in London hotels (with room service) for Bona Fide Parents who live too far out of town to get back for lunch.

[supermother]

People spend less time in bed now we have TVs and houses are warm and light after dark which I am sure has an impact on the chances you'll get more sex and also the chances you get enough hours asleep too.

When I read CM's article in the paper today I thought - that's a shame, not much and so short and the suggestion that sex is intercourse. I agree with E, there is a lot more to it than that. Why else did Eliot Sptizer need the girl for 3 or 4 hours? Some people must have very dull sex lives if sex is just pushing in and out of someone.

I think most couples have up and down periods (oops, bad use of words there) over sex over several decades of marriage particularly when babies are born but even when you've teenagers you can lock the door. They are always awake at that stage however. It's certainly something to bear in mind. That they will always be awake after you virtually every night particularly if you have quite a lot of them.

Lots of people have good sex over a long marriage. I am sure of it and anyone in sexless marriage has a major issue (unless they both like to be celibate) and if they think their partner doesn't mind and that it won't destroy the marriage they are kidding themselves. I think it's reasonable to expect unless you've a new baby that there will be sex in some form twice a week and at the least once a week if you want my rule of thumb. If you're having less and one of you isn't happy then you need to get that problem seen to.

[Nicki]

It actually get worse as the children get older. Ours sex life has died a death, mainly due to lack of privacy and opportunity - agravated by a tiring busy life. There's no hope!

[Eluned]

I never had sex 'til I got married so I don't know any different! We don't have sex that much but we do sexual things quite often. It's not like you have to actually have intercourse every time. It's a Catholic marriage; we don't do contraception so we abstain from full intercourse a lot of the time which suits both of us because when we do it's more fulfilling and just WOW than I think it would be if we did it every other day or whatever. Sometimes it's like the first time all over again but obviously a lot better. And because of the children and the co-sleeping thing we're often forced to use our imaginations and be a bit spontaneous. But it's all good. :]

[evee]

i find im exhausted all the time and dont feel like it as much as i did before our son was born.....it takes time and energy both of which i lack. but i think its really really important to make the effort and im always glad when i do