Thanks, AnnaMac, good to know I'm not the only one out there!
Posted by: mumoftwo | 29 Apr 2008 17:38:51
Mumoftwo, I endured years of dreadful school mornings where I seemed to have to battle to get my daughter to do the simplest things in the timeframe available. I felt like I had tried absolutely everything. In the end, it seems to have been cured by using a simple sticker reward system. I thought she was too sophisticated for that, but last year when I was using a (homemade) sticker chart system when I was potty-training her brother, she wanted to get stickers and rewards too - so I said fine - be ready for school on time without me having to nag you once and you get a sticker. Weirdly - it worked. For several months. And then I stopped the stickers and it still works. Of course, new issues have cropped up in the meantime, but hey! Mornings are currently running smoothly. But I expect all this to change once little bro' starts morning pre-school in September.
I think it gets easier to find reasonable sanctions that work (and do not just create an extra rod for the parent's back) once they get to school age. I have found both of my children very challenging as pre-schoolers and am just glad that I didn't have them any closer together. One at a time was enough for me. Managing 2 or more under-fives must be tough - so you should do as J says and take some time for yourself at the weekend!
Posted by: Annamac | 29 Apr 2008 14:20:57
mo2, also take the advice about insisting on a bit of break for you. SOunds as if you deserve it but are putting yourself last!
Posted by: j | 29 Apr 2008 13:20:42
Thanks for great advice, and a sympathetic ear (screen?!) Totally agree about avoiding triggers (had a classic on the doorstep just before school the other day that could have been avoided) plus immediate rewards/sanctions (will try this weekend!) I do try to do some of this, I just found myself shouting the other week with no-one listening, and I don't think that's a good place to be. Will haul self (and children) back on track!
AnnaMac, if only our school system was so sensible! In ours, the entry to pre-school is staggered, as is the entry to Big School which makes it very difficult for children to keep friendships and also to make them with the new children (who arrive at different times). We are stuck with it til the autumn, I'm hoping for much more stability after then.
Posted by: mumoftwo | 29 Apr 2008 12:24:26
Mo2,sympathy and I have to say I cant say why you feel worse cos they are that age. It is a very difficult age.
Helen's ideas are very useful, and I would add the following.
First, analyse the problem. You talk about them not doing what you ask without arguing. I found there were two key factors. Firstly, there were some triggers where I needed them to comply at short notice and they could of course tell this. I reduced those to the absolute minimum. So, eg, I do my supermarket shop online ( you can get free delivery sometimes if you pick a good slot, anyway I always save the service charge on not buying stuff I dont need). I would leave half an hour early for things. I suggest you keep a flip-out diary for a week and analyse the triggers of their naughtiness. I am guessing it will be times when they can see you need them to comply quickly. Then you can start to think how to reorganise those bits of the day that you dont care enough about to have a fight.
I dont see this as giving in- in fact I see it as not letting them get into bad habits.
Secondly I find that any reward or sanction at that age needs a 30 second fuse or there is no impact. Money is not very effective as they dont really know what things cost, so docking pocket money works better once they are bigger- even then, I find it works only on the child who has been allowed to run out of money and had to go home empty handed from a shop once in a while. Bedtime stories are kind of taken for granted at that age and anyway, 6pm is *ages* away.
Thirdly I would separate out what you need. Sounds as if at weekends you need (a) certain stuff done and (b) some peace and quiet and a rest. At the moment you are combining the two. Try to arrange for them separately. Even now (children aged 16,14 and 12) we have the concept of Quiet Time post lunch at weekends, when children may watch DVDs or make dolly camps or chew their own hair, I dont care but they may *not* disturb me unless actually bleeding.
What you are after is co-operation and kindness and a bit of responsibility. If you think you can care for a pet then a rabbit or two, or similar, might do the job. Obviously a puppy is better, but it's for life not for half-term, etc, you may not be able to commit to that. If thats too much, pretend to twist your ankle and hobble round on a stick for the day- see if they bring you cups of tea. You may be surprised. I dont mean all the time, just as part of the analysis ;)
The result of the analysis may be that OH takes your eldest child to pony lessons on a Saturday morning while younger one watches wistfully and you chill out. Sounds fair to me...
Posted by: j | 29 Apr 2008 12:08:34
I think it's a great shame when a pre-school does not divide their pupils up into classes according to age. There is such a vast difference between what 3 and 4 year old are capable of. The pre-school my children attended/attend has the very young children (who have another 18 months or so before they start proper school) only for afternoon sessions of 2.5 hours. The maximum that a child can attend is 4 sessions per week. The older children, who are due to start proper school the following September, only attend morning sessions (3 hours). This means that all the activities are age appropriate in each case and friendships formed within the group tend not to be ripped apart at the end of the school year.
Posted by: Annamac | 29 Apr 2008 10:48:35
Helena, all good ideas. She actually does attend pre-school, but all her friends have left and she is a very bright four and a half year old stuck in with three year olds...hence the increase in bad behaviour, we (and the pre-school) think. I also think we might return to doing more exercise, I used to take her out every single day for a couple of years for a run in the park (like a dog!) as if we didn't, she was too lively to handle. This worked well, but with pre-school etc it's all a bit static now. I might resurrect the afternoon run!
It's not that I can't handle them, but it takes an enormous amount of energy to remain calm and think through your tactics, and I guess like everyone, I am tired on weekends and get frustrated that they just won't get on with doing things I ask without me going purple!
Posted by: mumoftwo | 29 Apr 2008 10:11:23
Anna and MOT - about husbands and tidying and losing things, I'm glad I'm not alone. It does seem fundamentally to be about control. I think men can find it incredibly frustrating to have to live in a house with other people (such as their wife and children). If I were rich, I think husbands should live in the East Wing, with all their own things there, and only emerge for meals and such family time as they can endure. My husband keeps his sanity by staying in his study, which is at the far end of the house, and is, I know perfectly well, the reason we bought this house - it is his sanctuary where he can't be got at. The garden isn't big enough for a potting shed, and he'd probably find it a bit too nippy. But I'd adore one of those wooden summer houses - I'd make it all pretty and rustic, with cushioned swing seats on a little verandah, and dried flowers everywhere. Mine all mine.
Posted by: helena | 29 Apr 2008 10:02:00
And I forgot to add - if I can't find anything, - eg something has disappeared that I have got out the night before so as not to forget it in the morning, - and ask him if he knows where it is, his instant, reflex reaction is "I haven't seen it", even though he has invariably put it away somewhere. Do all men do these things?
Posted by: Anna | 29 Apr 2008 10:00:10
MoT - don't worry about having lively children. The placid ones are the stupid ones.(No, I know it's not true, but I used to tell myself that to cheer myself up.)
As for your older daughter, who wants to be at school, I wonder if it might be a good idea, if you can fit it in to what must be a hectic daily schedule with two pre-schoolers, to find something challenging for her to do, to absorb her interest, divert her away from wanting to be at school, to give her something that's her own, and special, even though she's not yet at school, but which she can be keen on. I was thinking along the lines of say music lessons, or learning maths (though of course you have to be careful not to overtake the school?), or perhaps something non-National Curriculum, like a language, or perhaps starting ballet/dance/gymnastics? Or a nature or animal project, which she can do, and have some kind of book/file to show for it. Children that young can learn an awful lot of science, which schools don't tend to do at all with them.
Whatever it is, basically ic would be something that serves effectively as her own personal school-substitute, so to speak. She may feel she is wasting time right now, because she's not at school, so perhaps having something to get on with would be a good idea. (However, please don't join her up for Thai kick-boxing - the sooner that is banned the better. Horrific.)
Posted by: helena | 29 Apr 2008 09:57:20
My husband is obsessive about tidying up anything that is left lying around. The problem is, he then forgets (a) what he has tidied up and (b) where he put anything (usually in a pile of a million other things somewhere out of sight where it gets forgotten about). I then get accused, not only of never tidying up/never sorting out my things (which are usually randomly scattered over various of his piles - out of sight, out of mind...), but also - usually very aggressively - of hiding whichever of his things he cant't find, the second, nay, the millisecond, he even thinks about the item in question, usually before he has even looked for it. For some reason, he doesn't see the contradiction in his attitude, even though whatever he is looking for is invariably wherever he has "tidied" it. (I really am not very good at tidying up and would not tidy up his things anyway!) But so frustrating!
Posted by: Anna | 29 Apr 2008 09:49:15
My husband is obsessive about tidying up anything that is left lying around. The problem is, he then forgets (a) what he has tidied up and (b) where he put anything (usually in a pile of a million other things somewhere out of sight where it gets forgotten about). I then get accused, not only of never tidying up/never sorting out my things (which are usually randomly scattered over various of his piles - out of sight, out of mind...), but also - usually very aggressively - of hiding whichever of his things he cant't find, the second, nay, the millisecond, he even thinks about the item in question, usually before he has even looked for it. For some reason, he doesn't see the contradiction in his attitude, even though whatever he is looking for is invariably wherever he has "tidied" it. (I really am not very good at tidying up and would not tidy up his things anyway!) But so frustrating!
Posted by: Anna | 29 Apr 2008 09:48:44
Thanks J, they are two and a half and four and a half which makes me feel even more inadequate! We've just hit a funny time, the eldest is not yet in Big School but reading and feeling very left out as all her friends have already gone (plus she's always been on the challenging side, she is at school too), and the little one is in thrall to her big sister. I think you are right to redirect their two-somenesss, I certainly don't want to stamp on it as it is lovely to be so bonded with your sibling, I just have felt on occasions that they are running rings round me lately, whereas usually I do feel in charge. I'm intrigued by your making them want what you want (I think I know what you mean), an example would be great.
AnnaMac, as for the list of measures I've tried, I could go on and on! I did try and ignore bad behaviour for quite a long time when my first was about 1 to 2 years old, having been told by everyone that this was the best approach as it just extinguished the attention part of it, but my daughter took this as a challenge to come up with worse and worse behaviour, until it became dangerous and I'd have to step in. I realised with her that actually stepping in immediately, and not letting it escalate was in fact much better. The second isn't the same, which is why you need to stay flexible; that approach may be far too heavy handed with another child.
Now I have them as a team and it's a whole new set of challenges! I sometimes look at quite placid looking children and wonder why mine are so lively, but of course it is that throwing themselves into life in every way that makes them so adorable the rest of the time!
Posted by: mumoftwo | 29 Apr 2008 09:29:26
My older child (now nearly 10) has always been of a, er, somewhat volatile disposition. I have tried various well-tested parenting techniques (well-tested by my mother, anyway), such as ranting and shrieking, moved on to more acceptable and modern methods such as fines (1p off your pocket money for every misdemeanour with chart to show how pocket money is decreasing over the week), but what currently works best is "the disappointed stare". "No, don't do that look, I hate that look."
Posted by: Annamac | 28 Apr 2008 21:39:24
mumof2 in the meantime I would say, work the power of sibling bonding in a different direction. Its a good time to get a grobag and let them grow tomatoes and expensive salady leaves. They can sell you the results for smarties. but play up the "you can do that now there are two of you old enough to help" thing for all you are worth.
Or let them get a pet and havea rota to care for it.
You are right, teaming up is too powerful for you to fight. Make sure that ganging up on Mummy is not the main outlet for it.
Posted by: J | 28 Apr 2008 21:05:27
She's probably right, she doesnt want it, not at that price.
IMHO its all about attention. So saying "do that or you get no story" is a gift to them, of course they are going to carry on.
Hard to explain really but I used to reinvent the world so that what I wanted was a natural part of what they wanted, and they thought it was their own idea (so much like being at work its untrue- right down to the "I didnt want it anyway" replies).
Hard to articulate- give me an example and I'll see if I can do better.
Posted by: J | 28 Apr 2008 20:54:55
J - Thanks, brilliant advice.
However, I've only got the one & she's a bit like Mo2s in that, we offer an incentive (or threaten a punishment) & we can literally see the thought process (she hasn't learned to hide it yet) as she decides whether or not it's worth her while & she'll often say "I don't want that anyway" (she's 3.5). Fun times...
Posted by: Lazy Mummy | 28 Apr 2008 20:46:45
Hayls tell your HV to get a grip. If the baby was seriously ill you would know by now. She knows the difference between a very ill baby and a perfectly OK one which is just tootling along in its own little pattern.
Cant you get rid of her soon? I cant remember how long they hang around...
Posted by: J | 28 Apr 2008 20:29:08
how old are they, Mo2?
Posted by: J | 28 Apr 2008 20:21:45
Helena- I laughed out loud when I read your post: my husband does appear to genuinely believe we have been hiding things, but mysteriously he doesn't apologise when he finds them under that pile of papers on his desk...
As for being in control, J, up until a few weeks ago, I would have said I had a reasonable handle on the whole thing, however, my two have discovered the power of teamwork in a big way; the older is constantly egging the younger one on to do naughty things, or they are plotting and doing them together. I don't feel like I'm disciplining one but two who are usually running in opposite directions laughing with glee (I can almost hear them chanting their motto 'divide and conquer'...)
I don't find deprivation very effective with my two; if I take away a treat or a fave toy or don't do the bedtime story because they persist in something, they shrug it off (usually saying 'we didn't want X anyway) and they really don't seem to dwell on it at all. I'm all for sibling bonding, but this seems to be taking it too far... They get plenty of positive attention too, but they are thrilled by their new power as a terrible twosome- so any tips?
Posted by: mumoftwo | 28 Apr 2008 14:54:20
I asked a friend once, who has 6, what happens if you say, do x, and they say, no, make me?
She told me: if you ever get there, you are doomed. They need to grow up believing mummy is fundamentally in charge, even if she listens and is nice about it. Just as they beieve in gravity, the existence of hippos and other Facts of Life.
The other thing is to tanslate it into baby eyes. My son refused to wear his coat when he was two- once. Only once. Cos I let him go outside without it. His problem was he was too young to imagine ahead and understand that he needed to put his coat on now, even though he was warm, as he would be cold later.
Thirty feet down the road he was begging me for it.
My secret of parenting is (a) never fight for something if you dont care, save your powder (b) always have something they want and (c) use humour and mutual respect, they are your best weapons.
At 16 Child A obeys me. Which is not to say he cant ask me to reconsider. Of course he can. If he is right then I will change what we have agreed. But he can make representations and expect them to be heard, after which a decision is taken. By me. Executive authority rests in me, and he knows it. He also does not wish to encounter what he calls "the voice of doom" which is when mummy starts speaking very, very calmly...;)
Posted by: j | 28 Apr 2008 14:07:56
Thanks for the helpful comments. Because her weight gain has been quite slow, the HV has seemed ridiculously keen for me to give her formula, despite my insisting that I have plenty of milk and she is contented after feeds. Had her weighed this morning though, and she'd put on 6oz, so everyone was happy.
First jabs this afternoon...I was a mess when the puppies had theirs, so am not looking forward to it.
Posted by: Hayls | 28 Apr 2008 13:39:48
J,
Er, yes, I think that's the gist of the question. Wow, I was inarticulate when I wrote that. That's the result of sore throat, complete exhaustion & a too-strong hot toddy before writing. Sorry!
Posted by: Lazy Mummy | 27 Apr 2008 20:27:52
J,
Er, yes, I think that's the gist of the question. Wow, I was inarticulate when I wrote that. That's the result of sore throat, complete exhaustion & a too-strong hot toddy before writing. Sorry!
Posted by: Lazy Mummy | 27 Apr 2008 20:21:32
I'm glad I'm not the only wife with a paranoid husband - the kind that automatically assumes that I've hidden things from him (I must have, so his logic goes, because if I hadn't hidden them, they would be where he thought they were). Life must be very hard for them, however, forced to live in a household where the rest of his family are deliberately hiding things from him all the time. It's its own punishment, really.
Posted by: helena | 27 Apr 2008 15:14:58
Lazymummy, not quite sure what the question is? are you asking, once they can talk back, do you have to negotiate and nag for everything you want them to do?
Posted by: J | 27 Apr 2008 14:10:41
Haha, love that clip. Although my husband and our sons are very much 'get on with it' types. It's Gwyneth who sits there with puppy eyes, shivering and putting on her best baby voice. Bless.
Oh God, the losing stuff thing really irks me too. I really can't complain about my husband all things considered but his reaction to things going missing has always caused me great irritation. If he misplaces the most insignificant thing the whole world has to stop until we find it and it's always themostimportantever whereas if I lose anything I wouldn't even dream of asking anyone to help me until I'd had at least a good twenty minute search and when I DO eventually ask I always get 'how am I supposed to know where you put your keys/purse/glasses?!' or 'it'll turn up if you stop looking.' URGH.
Posted by: Eluned | 27 Apr 2008 00:25:10
Sounds like the HV is trying to justify her existence. Ignore her, but say yes, yes, politely, then do nothing of what she says, and follow your gut instincts. Check with other mums, especially with older chlildren who've got the T-shirt.
Good luck.
Posted by: helena | 26 Apr 2008 16:36:01
Great to hear your news, Hayls - keep us informed.
My first two HVs were very good, the one here is a bit of a nightmare. I'm always "doing it all wrong" and she thinks I should be having my perfectly healthy nine-month-old weighed more often (why? He is exactly the same size and shape as all his nine-month-old friends).
So you are not alone!
Alpha Mum, yeah right. I've yet to meet a real one, either virtually or in RL.
Posted by: Kieransmum | 26 Apr 2008 16:01:18
Hayls,
Great to hear from you, and that things are going well! Hopefully you're well-enough armed from some of the discussions on here to politely ignore the HVs' rude comments when telling you you're breastfeeding all wrong (which you're bound to be doing, however you're doing it & whatever choices you've made). And once you've got to about 9 or 10 weeks, it just gets better & easier from thereon out.
TBH, I still don't feel like a mother a lot of the time, just a nagger. But maybe they're just synonymous once the child can answer back in words? (J could probably tell me). I expected some sort of profound change of personality, approach or something but didn't actually experience it. Just more tired and snappier than before - especially when we have an outbreak of "man-we" (as described brilliantly by J below)...(Oh, and of course, my heart melts whenever there's a little smile, hug, kiss or "I love you").
Posted by: Lazy Mummy | 25 Apr 2008 07:22:50
Hi Lazy Mummy
We're getting along very nicely thanks, despite harassment from evil Health Visitors. She's 9 weeks today - have no idea where the time has gone - and is lovely. Still quite little, but pretty contented and laid back.
Most days I still have to remind myself that I am a mummy now - am aspiring to alpha status but have a long way to go!
Posted by: Hayls | 24 Apr 2008 17:33:34
oddly enough my entire household relies on Child B who has some weird ability to know where *everything* is. Mind you, normally that is because it is in a pile in her room under six dollies and an orange...
We are good at "man-we" which is "we need to empty the bins" followed by sound of man sitting down with newspaper.
Posted by: J | 24 Apr 2008 13:47:45
I don't know whether men are worse at finding things, or not losing them in the first place, but I would say that women (of which I am one) are more likely to commit what I consider the worst lost-item related crime in the world - saying 'Where did you see it last?' I've looked there! It's not there! That's the definition of lost!
Or if I can't find travelcard etc. in bag and have had brief, surreptitious rummage so as not raise alert to anyone around, and they've noticed anyway and before I've had chance to move on to next stage.... 'is it in your pocket? Why don't you check your coat?' I'm looking there next, obviously! Leave me alone world!
Honestly, ladies, why?
Posted by: mmmm | 23 Apr 2008 13:46:41
Ha - is the inability to find things really a man trait, though? My OH is good at finding stuff, and indeed defines his role in the household as "finding things, fixing things and making people laugh".
Mind you, he doesn't make a fuss about colds either.
Posted by: Kim | 23 Apr 2008 13:22:14
Not that this annoys me, or anything...
Posted by: mumoftwo | 23 Apr 2008 12:32:20
I had never heard of 'man looks' before but I completely relate to it: my husband loses everything on an hourly basis but has no search strategy (let alone know where it is in the first place). He just says accusingly 'you must have moved it' even though I've usually been nowhere near the item, although now we have children, this has morphed into 'one of the children must have moved it'. Inevitably he finds it on an obvious surface, or in a coat pocket or it has fallen out of his trouser pocket when hanging upside down, but he mysteriously doesn't feel either the need to apologise or the need to devise a strategy for knowing where it is...
Posted by: mumoftwo | 23 Apr 2008 11:28:28
Hayls -
Glad to see you're back! How are things going? How old is the baby now?
Posted by: Lazy Mummy | 22 Apr 2008 22:15:09
My number two son has man-flu at the minute. Numbers 1 & 4 and myself are the ones that usually get the colds whilst numbers 2 & 3 and my husband are pretty immune. However no. 2 son has fallen victim as well ths time and is not coping well. He got himself sent home from school, demands constant calpol and is just too unwell for anything. The other two are just getting on with things whilst sniffing and coughing away (they are boys too mind you). It amazes me that at nine he has man-flu so well down.
We have "man-looks" too or "if you just looked properly where Mummy told you to look in the first place we wouldn't have spent the last half hour looking for your shoes/book/DS/homework/letter from school....."
Posted by: Hebe | 22 Apr 2008 18:00:18
Bloke took this to another level, and when I was pregnant suffered with everything I did, but to a greater degree. When I was stiff, he was sore from the gym, when I was hungry, he was hungrier, and when I was being kept up by needing to wee every three minutes, I was keeping him away.
It hasn't improved since Ffion was born...a passing comment by Spawn-of-Satan HV (I'm not really annoyed, but after a different remark, if she comes to my house again I am setting the dogs on her, having first trained them to do something other than grin inanely at visitors, wagging their little stumps.)means that he is frightened of paternal post natal depression, and greets every request for help with the line, 'But it might make me depressed.'
I can only imagine if it had been him spending 40 hours trying to poo her out. (Caitlin's analogy stayed with me throughout my pregnancy, and now that I've done it, seems most appropriate!)
Posted by: Hayls | 22 Apr 2008 14:55:27
That's excellent, Tiredmum, I'll have to remember that.
My goodness, almost makes me feel sorry for men:-)
Posted by: Kim | 22 Apr 2008 13:40:05
Or one I hear at work - 'did you look properly, or did you have a man look?
Posted by: tiredmum | 22 Apr 2008 13:05:44
From Man Stroke Woman - I always found that very funny.
Has anyone else noticed how the word "man" as a prefix has become derogatory? e.g. Man cold, man bag, man boob.
Posted by: Kim | 22 Apr 2008 12:36:13