A love that dare not speak its name.

Do you love your husband/partner? I do. My husband is called Pete and he's great. Indeed, I both love and like him. When we're together, we just kind of sigh, and stroke each other, murmuring "Thank God." And when we're apart, we ring each other every three hours, to say "I've got literally nothing to tell you", and kind of sniff at each other's telephonic pheromones. It really is a win/win/win/win/win situation.
But do you know who I can tell about this? No-one. No. One. You can't talk about how much you love your partner, and what a great father they are, because, by and large, no-one else seems to be saying it.
A couple of weeks ago, me and Pete dropped the kids off at school, and then left the playground together.
"You're holding hands!" one of the mums said, with an odd look on her face. "I can't remember the last time I held hands with _____."
Then the next day, another mum busted us for hand-holding in the park.
"You can tell you two haven't been together very long!" she said.
We've been together 13 years.
By and large, when other women talk about their relationships, it's usually in a very stressed manner - laced with resignation, and a stubborn, weary determination to just keep trying to make it work.
I thought I was in a particularly unlucky in my social circle, as I know of only two really happy relationships. Then I spoke to another friend, who lives further away, who said the only instance she had ever come across of a happy marriage was mine. I was completely horrified - although a bit smug, too, obviously.
Perhaps because of what appears to be the "general situation", I am incredibly cagey about talking about how happy I am, and what a thoughtful, loving, borderline semi-demented father Pete is. I wouldn't tell anyone about how, say, he used to get up extra early to make the girls' packed lunches, and would "protect" the sandwiches with a specially-cut cardboard insert - like they were from Pret a Manger. Or the insane lengths (3am flights, over-night trains, 4am driving-marathons) he'll go to to take the girls to school in the morning. I don't feel I can, when all the other women are tearful about their sex-lives, using phrases like "Feel like I'm going out of my mind with stress," and discussing partners who spend all weekend away playing golf.
Indeed, in a sweaty horror over coming across as smug, I'll only ever really take the piss out of Pete in the course of "wifely conversations." I'll pretend to be a bit exasperated about, say, the ludicrous size of his record collection - before sighing, and saying "But we muddle along, somehow."
So the question is - am I only hearing bad things about everyone else's partners because, actually, they're doing the same as me?
Or is it genuinely quite rare for people to still be properly besotted with their partners after 13 years, two children and a on-going, fundamental disagreement about how interesting Gardener's World is?

Comments

[super kawaii mama]

Caitlin, I think it is generally a matter of perspective. Whether you are a glass half empty or full person. If you were the former, chances are you would have something to bitch about everyday. But it sounds as though you are a positive and generous-spirited individual. When I talk about my husband, that is the person I TRY to remember to be.

[Wendy V]

That's an interesting point you make, Jay: you and your husband being able to move on rather than get stuck into arguments, because life with your parents was a constant row. That's the same for me, and in fact the only people I know around my own age who have been with their partners as long as I've been with mine (22 years), are my brother and sister. We're the product of parents who were constantly arguing (though they did stay together), we took on the role of mediators, and we all of us hate conflict as a result. Our partners are similarly non-bickery.

[Jay]

Hi Caitlin, my husband and I are together almost 40 years - married for 37 in June. We still feel as daft and romantic after this length of time as we did in '68 when we first met. We still try to get away for the odd romantic weekend. Even though the children(!) have left home, and have have lives of their own at this stage, it is still nice to have the odd cuddle in the kitchen. I'm glad to know that I am not the only one who does not bitch about my husband. Most of my friends and colleagues in work do not seem to have the same friendship with their husbands/partners as I have with my husband. Being a friend first is most important. There are times when we get on each others nerves, we wouldn't be human otherwise, but with a quick thought 'life is too short to argue' about who takes out the rubbish/empties the dishwasher etc. we both move on - both of us having come from parents where life was a constant row.

[Norah]

Might be a British thing (I am not British my husband is), we are blissfully happy and though I am not one that likes bragging, we hold hands, make dates with each other and try being happy. (There is NOTHING wrong with my last statement!).

[RW]

Before I married, it wasn't the 'smug marrieds' I disliked listening too. It was the "moaning marrieds" who got my goat. Often they are just 'using up' all the family men - for example, do they think that if they got divorced all the housework would just go away? Do they think the kids would lie quietly in a box in between going to school? Do they not realize how much their income would drop (and thus the amount of free time they have to sit around whingeing?) I hated listening to it. It's gossip about the people who are most vulnerable to your bad mouth, and it's vile. And you know what? After getting married, I still hate it. I can even tell people off about it!

[Anon]

Thanks everyone for their advice!

[Anonforthispost]

>>With your husbands, did you have a moment realising that this was the person for you, or was it a mutual decision that this was something that you were going to try anyway?<<

Married 17 years. First time met husband it was all slow motion and barry white singing 'oh yeah mmmm mmmm'. All the alarm bells went off and I tried to avoid him as I knew that there was something different here and I didn't want to EVER settle down. But I couldn't stop myself. It felt so natural, so right, so familiar. It felt as if I'd known him all my life - I was just waiting to meet him. The electricity between us was amazing. The big difference between him and my 'first love' was this incredible feeling I had that it was all just so so right, and there was just something really solid about it all - the way I felt about him, when I thought about him, when I saw him, when I was with him. For the first time ever with another person I was just 100 percent me right from the start, without even thinking about it. Complete openness and honesty - I think it was the first time I ever felt that way about someone, and the only time, my children excepting.

If I hadn't met him, then I would not have settled down. I was 100 percent happy and satisfied being just me in my life, and I had no huge burning desire to have children.

[mumoftwo]

Anon, if you have hung out with this guy for months, but never once fantasised about having a snog, then he's not the guy for you. It doesn't matter how 'suitable' he is, or however much your mum likes him, she is not the one who will have to wake up next to him for the next fifty years. I think there has to be an initial sexual chemistry. I don't mean that you get a bolt of lightening when you first see him (although great if you do), but rather that within a few times of seeing him you start wondering what it would be like to go out with him, or if he has a girlfriend. Chemistry plus similar values will see you a long way and isn't unrealistic either, if you keep flexible about the packaging.

[Jane2]

Due diligence made me laugh.
Seeing the mess that finances get into on breakdown of relationships, I think that it is a good idea in some ways. SM could enlighten us on this point.
But I think we mentally do our own due diligence, as we meet the OH's friends, family, discover their hobbies etc.
I think that the flash of recognition is maybe a whole set of instinctive reactions all pushed into one.
The two people who have posted here about arranged marriages, who are clearly making a success of them, and not feeling hard done by, made me think. Maybe the idea of "The One" is expecting too much.
Come to think of it, I had previously met people who impressed me visually on first sight, who within minutes of conversation proved to be complete No-No's.
But there does have to be a strong initial pull, to help the relationship last the bad times. This should be followed by research, whether conscious or not, as to compatibility.

[Lazy Mummy]

I'm proof that marrying in haste can work. We definitely got married without what the FT would call appropriate due diligence but knew we had similar values. Those plus a strong dose of attraction, shared interests & sheer bloody mindedness got us through a rough beginning & several other patches since.

That article in the Times was interesting. Of course no one's perfect but there's a difference between someone scoring 2/10 vs. 7/10 vs 11/10. I think the article's suggesting maybe you should consider settling for 7, rather than wait for that elusive 11 (especially since no one & no relationship is ever perfect). I don't think it's saying settle for 2 & have hardly anything in common to make the relationship work.

[Anon]

Thanks Jane2 and LM. It's very interesting hearing your views. I've been thinking about this a lot, especially in light of the recent Times article saying that women should stop expecting Mr Perfect to come along, but instead settle for someone who's say, 2 out of 10. On some level, I agree. I think we're constantly bombarded in the media with the idea of the perfect man coming along and saving the day, which leads to unrealistic expectations. But on the other hand, if they're not the right person, it can only lead to resentment.
There was an article in the FT today saying that people should do more extensive due diligence before marrying, rather than making such a momentous decision based on sexual desire and thinking that the other person is alright to get along with.

[Lazy Mummy]

Anon - doesn't sound like this friend is the boy for you, to be honest.

I've never believed there's only one perfect person for someone. For most people, there will probably be several people you meet in your life who would be good candidates for spouse, and a lot depends on where you're each at mentally wrt. settling down when you meet each other.

There has actually been lots of research on what makes relationships work/last. Someone quoted John Gottman earlier on this thread - his research makes interesting reading, not least because he's come up with an algorithm to measure the likelihood of a relationship lasting. A lot of it, I think, comes down to values & style of relationship (volatile vs. not) so advice will depend on what's important to the person giving the advice.

One piece of advice that struck me when I was making a decision was "don't marry someone who bores you because it will only get worse over the years". For me, that struck home, but as I said, it depends on what's important to you.

[Jane2]

Anon
I'm really interested in what you say. God knows what the answer is, and it would be very nice to hear all the other Alphamummies give you their views.
I honestly think it's all a complete mystery.
I don't know how I've managed to maintain a relationship for 30 years, although I think the main driver has been a TOTAL determination not to give up.
But just going back to the beginning, we both had a flash of recognition that "This was the one" at the very first moment we set eyes on each other.
I can't imagine having a relationship with someone I "couldn't be bothered with". No matter how practical.

[Hellie]

I think we as a nation feel better about complaining than being happy. We feel uncomfortable with success and fear that we will be ostracized for getting it right. Se how we even fall into the Bridget Jones trap of calling ourselves "smug marrieds".

I love my DH. Not that he is perfect always, not that he never does or says the wrong thing, but I love him, forever. And I hope and pray he still loves me, forever.

We've had the comments when we kiss or hold hands, and for a while I started to feel embarrassed about that. But not to kiss and hold hands makes him feel unwanted and surely he is more important than "them". And I enjoy it!

We met and married "later" after we'd both had bad relationships, and we entered this one with the idea it was forever. And when it got sticky we got help.

So if you are embarking on a relationship, or if things are going awry, keep at it! You can get through it.

[Anon]

I would like to get some advice from all these happily married experts. What do you think makes a happy marriage? What would you be looking out for if you were single?
I was discussing this with my mother yesterday (she and my father have been married for over 30 years, so presumably know what they're doing). Basically, I have this male friend who my mother thinks I should start dating, as he's rather interested, but I generally can't be bothered. I was in a serious relationship before, I knew from our first date that I was going to fall in love with him, whereas with this friend, we've been hanging out for months, I've tried to have an open mind to see what happens, but I just don't think of him in that way. My mother said that first loves are always different and have a touch of the surreal, whereas subsequent loves are completely different, more practical.
With your husbands, did you have a moment realising that this was the person for you, or was it a mutual decision that this was something that you were going to try anyway?

[Jackal]

Hi Caitlin- me too with the smug-marrieds thing. I hate to go on about it because it seems more 'cool' to slag off your other half; I admit to having joined in (after racking my brains) to negative comments about husbands habits purely because i wanted to join in the conversation -- and no-one wanted to talk about how we still wanted to be with each other every minute of the day, still fancied one another, were each other's best friend, supporter, confidante, lover and all that ickly sickly stuff that just isn't British.
In my case, the Slagging of the Men was a family trait; my mother did it, my aunties did it, so when me and my 2 sisters were married ('My sisters and I'!) we continued the rather negative tradition of saying all bad, no good. I remember one evening just listening to all the women talking and realising it sounded like we all hated our husbands!!! So why were we all married ... hmmm. I quietly vowed not to join in in future as I could see how destructive the environment was. It was like a horrible contest to see who's husband was worse.
16 yrs later I am the only one still married, and we have been together for well over 20 yrs now. Had our family in our mid- late-30s so plenty of time to get to know each other. I've been a bitch in the past and he's been rather stupid. Had money troubles, ill child, ill me. Basically we have had ups and downs so it's not all been hearts & flowers! But, i'd hate hearing me too if i wasn't so happy, so i keep our love story under wraps ...

[supermother]

As can be seen below people can be happy for years in a marriage. You see it all the time but it's not much written about. The fact I wasn't doesn't stop me realising it's possible. My parents weren't although they were married from 1953 to my mother's death and they really should have done something about it but my mother even refused to go to counselling.

I have always hated seeing couples criticising each other. When I was married if was out with other mothers they would almost seem to be in a competition about how much they could denigrate their husbands in public. I think it's dreadful and I ever once did it even though I am sure I had much more to complain about than most people. Men do it too although not perhaps as much, complaining about their nagging wife or whatever. It's almost a tradition and it's always good to see people who won't take part in that. It's not respectful. It's not loyal. In fact I always made a point of pointing out what my ex husband was good at - did things on a fair basis around the house, hard working etc.

[miri]

i've been married for 7 years and have 2 children- as orthodox jews ours was an arranged marriage, we met 5 times and then didn't see each other for the three months of our engagement, so in effect i married a stranger (we hadnt actually touched each other until our wedding night either) without trying to sound smug, we are still deeply in love, I believe it's because we both came into the relationship wanting to make it work, and just try to look for ways we can give to each other on a daily basis. yes, there are times when he gets on my nerves and vice versa, but we just try to speak respectfully to each other.

[Emma]

I have been married 3 years. I love my hubby and he loves me too. I have noticed that the longer we spend together the more in love we become. I am proud to "show off" about it because he's a wonderful gift to me. I remember growing up and being the only person whose parents were still together. It appears that my mother (Ginny) has passed the legacy onto me. Thanks Mum!!

I think that the problem is that we are programmed to talk about the negative. If we give each other compliments, not many people accept them. E.g. "you look nice today" response "oh, this old thing?"

The response should be - thanks! I think so too.

If asked I would tell you that despite many challenges in his life, my hubby is the most caring, thoughtful, attentive man I know. (Apart from my Dad!!).

I also think that people confuse themselves about what love should look like. Love is not always pretty, it is not always easy and is certainly isn't what you see in the movies! It's hard work sometimes, it's ugly sometimes, but in the end you get out what you put in. If you don't work at it you won't benefit from it! I am PROUD to say that I live with my best friend in the whole world and I know he thinks so too!

[Ginny]

I hate hearing people bitch about men/husbands. OK so there are some bad ones, but bad women too. I've been married for nearly 39 years to the most wonderful of men. He is kind, loving, patient, modest and despite my failings continues to love me. Love is quite the most precious thing and it saddens me that couples sometimes don't give things the chance to work. So in short - I'm still loved and in love - how nice is that?

[tracey]

oh my goodness daniel i don't know how you manage to be so cool, sounds like you have yr hands full! i have only 2 kids both healthy (excepting the chickenpox) and still, one has never slept more than 2h and DH and I are no longer in the honeymoon period... or even paired up... we have got to the stage of slack jawed exhaustion where we sidle past each other in the corridor, eyes glazed and expressions vacant. Occasionally we bump into each other. "gnuh" we grunt and move on. One to bed, the other to Spotty Screaming Baby. As the 4 y/o says, 'mummy have you left your brain at home today?'
Yeah. Mummy left it in the delivery suite.
And DH? I have no idea where he is. a shadowy creature who scuttles out the door when the wails begin. maybe when the teething and pox is all over, we might reconvene. i think he's a nice bloke. i used to like him a lot. :))

[Daniel]

I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting here. I am a guy, which makes me suspect in some circles, happily married, love my kids, etc. If I mentioned that I'm a white protestant, over 30, I think some would have me shot on principal. But, onward. Caitlin, I hear the same whining from guys. And, I truly despise the phrase "the wife." (right up there with "the dog," "the car," "the operation," etc) I'm not exactly pro-feminism, but I have respect for women, as a species, and that one particular one whom I refer to as my (not 'the') wife. She's a saint. Married 9 years to me is a partial qualifier. But, I do help around the house. (A lot.) I help with the kids. (A lot.) I have two boys with autism, and a daughter (God help her!) who's just like me. Our lives our chaotic, our house is trashed, we barely sleep, never have time for ourselves or each other, but we get along well, and rarely fight. So many people I know have "less on their plate" (so far as I can see), but complain more. I echo with the rest, "and why is that?" I think it's because my wife & I are unified by more than "just" our relationship; as Christians, we believe our union is "cord of 3 strands" (from Ecclesiastes). I also think that we've benefited from coming from families which modeled 'fidelity'. My father would've rather been thought a swindler or a murderer rather than unfaithful. I think we further benefit from having a good mix of "much alike" and "very different." Relationships where a pair are too much alike can be as disastrous as ones which they are too different. I could go on and on, on the subject. I love my wife, and try to be there for her. I take it on evidence that she loves me. (ie, my tea remains unpoisoned, to borrrow from Sir Winston.) And, as abysmally as I do at that, something is working. A pervasive sense of "I don't deserve this" prevents too much smugness from creeping in. I just keep trying, and praying for a better tomorrow.

Regards,

Dan'l

[supermother]

Yank, sorry your husband moved out. I hope you both sort it out for the best. Obviously do all the usual stuff to protect your financial position too like checking bank accounts aren't being cleaned out although it's probably the last thing you want to think about...thinking of dinners with divorced fathers gleefully telling me how they hid money from their wives, wives who thought they were blissfully happily married (except they didn't know he was seeing someone all the time).

But I do know happily married couples and just because my marriage was really pretty awful right from year 1 and was dreadful by year 19 - it didn't break down, it just never was there in a sense (kind of illustrates how actually the annulment wasn't too off the mark), doesn't mean everyone's is. What I do know is that it is much much better for me and the children since and that all those years when it seemed for the best to be together may be for some of them it wasn't.

The new Bond film is called a Quatum of Solace because Ian Fleming wrote a short story of that name in which, probably reflecting his own unhappy marriage, he wrote about when the quantum of the solace you obtain from the marriage is zero then it is over and you leave. I left when the quantum was zero. It sounds like Caitlin is nearer 10 out of 10, cup runneth over which is great.

[J]

Caitlin, you have taken away the apostrophe, thank you for putting up with my pedantry *goes and buys Caitlin a latte and big bun*.

[J]

LOL KM, actually I suspect that I wouldnt be able to tell if I did have PMT, what with my brain being so ruled by my clinical chocolate dependency issues...