A love that dare not speak its name.

Do you love your husband/partner? I do. My husband is called Pete and he's great. Indeed, I both love and like him. When we're together, we just kind of sigh, and stroke each other, murmuring "Thank God." And when we're apart, we ring each other every three hours, to say "I've got literally nothing to tell you", and kind of sniff at each other's telephonic pheromones. It really is a win/win/win/win/win situation.
But do you know who I can tell about this? No-one. No. One. You can't talk about how much you love your partner, and what a great father they are, because, by and large, no-one else seems to be saying it.
A couple of weeks ago, me and Pete dropped the kids off at school, and then left the playground together.
"You're holding hands!" one of the mums said, with an odd look on her face. "I can't remember the last time I held hands with _____."
Then the next day, another mum busted us for hand-holding in the park.
"You can tell you two haven't been together very long!" she said.
We've been together 13 years.
By and large, when other women talk about their relationships, it's usually in a very stressed manner - laced with resignation, and a stubborn, weary determination to just keep trying to make it work.
I thought I was in a particularly unlucky in my social circle, as I know of only two really happy relationships. Then I spoke to another friend, who lives further away, who said the only instance she had ever come across of a happy marriage was mine. I was completely horrified - although a bit smug, too, obviously.
Perhaps because of what appears to be the "general situation", I am incredibly cagey about talking about how happy I am, and what a thoughtful, loving, borderline semi-demented father Pete is. I wouldn't tell anyone about how, say, he used to get up extra early to make the girls' packed lunches, and would "protect" the sandwiches with a specially-cut cardboard insert - like they were from Pret a Manger. Or the insane lengths (3am flights, over-night trains, 4am driving-marathons) he'll go to to take the girls to school in the morning. I don't feel I can, when all the other women are tearful about their sex-lives, using phrases like "Feel like I'm going out of my mind with stress," and discussing partners who spend all weekend away playing golf.
Indeed, in a sweaty horror over coming across as smug, I'll only ever really take the piss out of Pete in the course of "wifely conversations." I'll pretend to be a bit exasperated about, say, the ludicrous size of his record collection - before sighing, and saying "But we muddle along, somehow."
So the question is - am I only hearing bad things about everyone else's partners because, actually, they're doing the same as me?
Or is it genuinely quite rare for people to still be properly besotted with their partners after 13 years, two children and a on-going, fundamental disagreement about how interesting Gardener's World is?

Comments

[super kawaii mama]

Caitlin, I think it is generally a matter of perspective. Whether you are a glass half empty or full person. If you were the former, chances are you would have something to bitch about everyday. But it sounds as though you are a positive and generous-spirited individual. When I talk about my husband, that is the person I TRY to remember to be.

[Wendy V]

That's an interesting point you make, Jay: you and your husband being able to move on rather than get stuck into arguments, because life with your parents was a constant row. That's the same for me, and in fact the only people I know around my own age who have been with their partners as long as I've been with mine (22 years), are my brother and sister. We're the product of parents who were constantly arguing (though they did stay together), we took on the role of mediators, and we all of us hate conflict as a result. Our partners are similarly non-bickery.

[Jay]

Hi Caitlin, my husband and I are together almost 40 years - married for 37 in June. We still feel as daft and romantic after this length of time as we did in '68 when we first met. We still try to get away for the odd romantic weekend. Even though the children(!) have left home, and have have lives of their own at this stage, it is still nice to have the odd cuddle in the kitchen. I'm glad to know that I am not the only one who does not bitch about my husband. Most of my friends and colleagues in work do not seem to have the same friendship with their husbands/partners as I have with my husband. Being a friend first is most important. There are times when we get on each others nerves, we wouldn't be human otherwise, but with a quick thought 'life is too short to argue' about who takes out the rubbish/empties the dishwasher etc. we both move on - both of us having come from parents where life was a constant row.

[Norah]

Might be a British thing (I am not British my husband is), we are blissfully happy and though I am not one that likes bragging, we hold hands, make dates with each other and try being happy. (There is NOTHING wrong with my last statement!).

[RW]

Before I married, it wasn't the 'smug marrieds' I disliked listening too. It was the "moaning marrieds" who got my goat. Often they are just 'using up' all the family men - for example, do they think that if they got divorced all the housework would just go away? Do they think the kids would lie quietly in a box in between going to school? Do they not realize how much their income would drop (and thus the amount of free time they have to sit around whingeing?) I hated listening to it. It's gossip about the people who are most vulnerable to your bad mouth, and it's vile. And you know what? After getting married, I still hate it. I can even tell people off about it!

[Anon]

Thanks everyone for their advice!

[Anonforthispost]

>>With your husbands, did you have a moment realising that this was the person for you, or was it a mutual decision that this was something that you were going to try anyway?<<

Married 17 years. First time met husband it was all slow motion and barry white singing 'oh yeah mmmm mmmm'. All the alarm bells went off and I tried to avoid him as I knew that there was something different here and I didn't want to EVER settle down. But I couldn't stop myself. It felt so natural, so right, so familiar. It felt as if I'd known him all my life - I was just waiting to meet him. The electricity between us was amazing. The big difference between him and my 'first love' was this incredible feeling I had that it was all just so so right, and there was just something really solid about it all - the way I felt about him, when I thought about him, when I saw him, when I was with him. For the first time ever with another person I was just 100 percent me right from the start, without even thinking about it. Complete openness and honesty - I think it was the first time I ever felt that way about someone, and the only time, my children excepting.

If I hadn't met him, then I would not have settled down. I was 100 percent happy and satisfied being just me in my life, and I had no huge burning desire to have children.

[mumoftwo]

Anon, if you have hung out with this guy for months, but never once fantasised about having a snog, then he's not the guy for you. It doesn't matter how 'suitable' he is, or however much your mum likes him, she is not the one who will have to wake up next to him for the next fifty years. I think there has to be an initial sexual chemistry. I don't mean that you get a bolt of lightening when you first see him (although great if you do), but rather that within a few times of seeing him you start wondering what it would be like to go out with him, or if he has a girlfriend. Chemistry plus similar values will see you a long way and isn't unrealistic either, if you keep flexible about the packaging.

[Jane2]

Due diligence made me laugh.
Seeing the mess that finances get into on breakdown of relationships, I think that it is a good idea in some ways. SM could enlighten us on this point.
But I think we mentally do our own due diligence, as we meet the OH's friends, family, discover their hobbies etc.
I think that the flash of recognition is maybe a whole set of instinctive reactions all pushed into one.
The two people who have posted here about arranged marriages, who are clearly making a success of them, and not feeling hard done by, made me think. Maybe the idea of "The One" is expecting too much.
Come to think of it, I had previously met people who impressed me visually on first sight, who within minutes of conversation proved to be complete No-No's.
But there does have to be a strong initial pull, to help the relationship last the bad times. This should be followed by research, whether conscious or not, as to compatibility.

[Lazy Mummy]

I'm proof that marrying in haste can work. We definitely got married without what the FT would call appropriate due diligence but knew we had similar values. Those plus a strong dose of attraction, shared interests & sheer bloody mindedness got us through a rough beginning & several other patches since.

That article in the Times was interesting. Of course no one's perfect but there's a difference between someone scoring 2/10 vs. 7/10 vs 11/10. I think the article's suggesting maybe you should consider settling for 7, rather than wait for that elusive 11 (especially since no one & no relationship is ever perfect). I don't think it's saying settle for 2 & have hardly anything in common to make the relationship work.

[Anon]

Thanks Jane2 and LM. It's very interesting hearing your views. I've been thinking about this a lot, especially in light of the recent Times article saying that women should stop expecting Mr Perfect to come along, but instead settle for someone who's say, 2 out of 10. On some level, I agree. I think we're constantly bombarded in the media with the idea of the perfect man coming along and saving the day, which leads to unrealistic expectations. But on the other hand, if they're not the right person, it can only lead to resentment.
There was an article in the FT today saying that people should do more extensive due diligence before marrying, rather than making such a momentous decision based on sexual desire and thinking that the other person is alright to get along with.

[Lazy Mummy]

Anon - doesn't sound like this friend is the boy for you, to be honest.

I've never believed there's only one perfect person for someone. For most people, there will probably be several people you meet in your life who would be good candidates for spouse, and a lot depends on where you're each at mentally wrt. settling down when you meet each other.

There has actually been lots of research on what makes relationships work/last. Someone quoted John Gottman earlier on this thread - his research makes interesting reading, not least because he's come up with an algorithm to measure the likelihood of a relationship lasting. A lot of it, I think, comes down to values & style of relationship (volatile vs. not) so advice will depend on what's important to the person giving the advice.

One piece of advice that struck me when I was making a decision was "don't marry someone who bores you because it will only get worse over the years". For me, that struck home, but as I said, it depends on what's important to you.

[Jane2]

Anon
I'm really interested in what you say. God knows what the answer is, and it would be very nice to hear all the other Alphamummies give you their views.
I honestly think it's all a complete mystery.
I don't know how I've managed to maintain a relationship for 30 years, although I think the main driver has been a TOTAL determination not to give up.
But just going back to the beginning, we both had a flash of recognition that "This was the one" at the very first moment we set eyes on each other.
I can't imagine having a relationship with someone I "couldn't be bothered with". No matter how practical.

[Hellie]

I think we as a nation feel better about complaining than being happy. We feel uncomfortable with success and fear that we will be ostracized for getting it right. Se how we even fall into the Bridget Jones trap of calling ourselves "smug marrieds".

I love my DH. Not that he is perfect always, not that he never does or says the wrong thing, but I love him, forever. And I hope and pray he still loves me, forever.

We've had the comments when we kiss or hold hands, and for a while I started to feel embarrassed about that. But not to kiss and hold hands makes him feel unwanted and surely he is more important than "them". And I enjoy it!

We met and married "later" after we'd both had bad relationships, and we entered this one with the idea it was forever. And when it got sticky we got help.

So if you are embarking on a relationship, or if things are going awry, keep at it! You can get through it.

[Anon]

I would like to get some advice from all these happily married experts. What do you think makes a happy marriage? What would you be looking out for if you were single?
I was discussing this with my mother yesterday (she and my father have been married for over 30 years, so presumably know what they're doing). Basically, I have this male friend who my mother thinks I should start dating, as he's rather interested, but I generally can't be bothered. I was in a serious relationship before, I knew from our first date that I was going to fall in love with him, whereas with this friend, we've been hanging out for months, I've tried to have an open mind to see what happens, but I just don't think of him in that way. My mother said that first loves are always different and have a touch of the surreal, whereas subsequent loves are completely different, more practical.
With your husbands, did you have a moment realising that this was the person for you, or was it a mutual decision that this was something that you were going to try anyway?

[Jackal]

Hi Caitlin- me too with the smug-marrieds thing. I hate to go on about it because it seems more 'cool' to slag off your other half; I admit to having joined in (after racking my brains) to negative comments about husbands habits purely because i wanted to join in the conversation -- and no-one wanted to talk about how we still wanted to be with each other every minute of the day, still fancied one another, were each other's best friend, supporter, confidante, lover and all that ickly sickly stuff that just isn't British.
In my case, the Slagging of the Men was a family trait; my mother did it, my aunties did it, so when me and my 2 sisters were married ('My sisters and I'!) we continued the rather negative tradition of saying all bad, no good. I remember one evening just listening to all the women talking and realising it sounded like we all hated our husbands!!! So why were we all married ... hmmm. I quietly vowed not to join in in future as I could see how destructive the environment was. It was like a horrible contest to see who's husband was worse.
16 yrs later I am the only one still married, and we have been together for well over 20 yrs now. Had our family in our mid- late-30s so plenty of time to get to know each other. I've been a bitch in the past and he's been rather stupid. Had money troubles, ill child, ill me. Basically we have had ups and downs so it's not all been hearts & flowers! But, i'd hate hearing me too if i wasn't so happy, so i keep our love story under wraps ...

[supermother]

As can be seen below people can be happy for years in a marriage. You see it all the time but it's not much written about. The fact I wasn't doesn't stop me realising it's possible. My parents weren't although they were married from 1953 to my mother's death and they really should have done something about it but my mother even refused to go to counselling.

I have always hated seeing couples criticising each other. When I was married if was out with other mothers they would almost seem to be in a competition about how much they could denigrate their husbands in public. I think it's dreadful and I ever once did it even though I am sure I had much more to complain about than most people. Men do it too although not perhaps as much, complaining about their nagging wife or whatever. It's almost a tradition and it's always good to see people who won't take part in that. It's not respectful. It's not loyal. In fact I always made a point of pointing out what my ex husband was good at - did things on a fair basis around the house, hard working etc.

[miri]

i've been married for 7 years and have 2 children- as orthodox jews ours was an arranged marriage, we met 5 times and then didn't see each other for the three months of our engagement, so in effect i married a stranger (we hadnt actually touched each other until our wedding night either) without trying to sound smug, we are still deeply in love, I believe it's because we both came into the relationship wanting to make it work, and just try to look for ways we can give to each other on a daily basis. yes, there are times when he gets on my nerves and vice versa, but we just try to speak respectfully to each other.

[Emma]

I have been married 3 years. I love my hubby and he loves me too. I have noticed that the longer we spend together the more in love we become. I am proud to "show off" about it because he's a wonderful gift to me. I remember growing up and being the only person whose parents were still together. It appears that my mother (Ginny) has passed the legacy onto me. Thanks Mum!!

I think that the problem is that we are programmed to talk about the negative. If we give each other compliments, not many people accept them. E.g. "you look nice today" response "oh, this old thing?"

The response should be - thanks! I think so too.

If asked I would tell you that despite many challenges in his life, my hubby is the most caring, thoughtful, attentive man I know. (Apart from my Dad!!).

I also think that people confuse themselves about what love should look like. Love is not always pretty, it is not always easy and is certainly isn't what you see in the movies! It's hard work sometimes, it's ugly sometimes, but in the end you get out what you put in. If you don't work at it you won't benefit from it! I am PROUD to say that I live with my best friend in the whole world and I know he thinks so too!

[Ginny]

I hate hearing people bitch about men/husbands. OK so there are some bad ones, but bad women too. I've been married for nearly 39 years to the most wonderful of men. He is kind, loving, patient, modest and despite my failings continues to love me. Love is quite the most precious thing and it saddens me that couples sometimes don't give things the chance to work. So in short - I'm still loved and in love - how nice is that?

[tracey]

oh my goodness daniel i don't know how you manage to be so cool, sounds like you have yr hands full! i have only 2 kids both healthy (excepting the chickenpox) and still, one has never slept more than 2h and DH and I are no longer in the honeymoon period... or even paired up... we have got to the stage of slack jawed exhaustion where we sidle past each other in the corridor, eyes glazed and expressions vacant. Occasionally we bump into each other. "gnuh" we grunt and move on. One to bed, the other to Spotty Screaming Baby. As the 4 y/o says, 'mummy have you left your brain at home today?'
Yeah. Mummy left it in the delivery suite.
And DH? I have no idea where he is. a shadowy creature who scuttles out the door when the wails begin. maybe when the teething and pox is all over, we might reconvene. i think he's a nice bloke. i used to like him a lot. :))

[Daniel]

I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting here. I am a guy, which makes me suspect in some circles, happily married, love my kids, etc. If I mentioned that I'm a white protestant, over 30, I think some would have me shot on principal. But, onward. Caitlin, I hear the same whining from guys. And, I truly despise the phrase "the wife." (right up there with "the dog," "the car," "the operation," etc) I'm not exactly pro-feminism, but I have respect for women, as a species, and that one particular one whom I refer to as my (not 'the') wife. She's a saint. Married 9 years to me is a partial qualifier. But, I do help around the house. (A lot.) I help with the kids. (A lot.) I have two boys with autism, and a daughter (God help her!) who's just like me. Our lives our chaotic, our house is trashed, we barely sleep, never have time for ourselves or each other, but we get along well, and rarely fight. So many people I know have "less on their plate" (so far as I can see), but complain more. I echo with the rest, "and why is that?" I think it's because my wife & I are unified by more than "just" our relationship; as Christians, we believe our union is "cord of 3 strands" (from Ecclesiastes). I also think that we've benefited from coming from families which modeled 'fidelity'. My father would've rather been thought a swindler or a murderer rather than unfaithful. I think we further benefit from having a good mix of "much alike" and "very different." Relationships where a pair are too much alike can be as disastrous as ones which they are too different. I could go on and on, on the subject. I love my wife, and try to be there for her. I take it on evidence that she loves me. (ie, my tea remains unpoisoned, to borrrow from Sir Winston.) And, as abysmally as I do at that, something is working. A pervasive sense of "I don't deserve this" prevents too much smugness from creeping in. I just keep trying, and praying for a better tomorrow.

Regards,

Dan'l

[supermother]

Yank, sorry your husband moved out. I hope you both sort it out for the best. Obviously do all the usual stuff to protect your financial position too like checking bank accounts aren't being cleaned out although it's probably the last thing you want to think about...thinking of dinners with divorced fathers gleefully telling me how they hid money from their wives, wives who thought they were blissfully happily married (except they didn't know he was seeing someone all the time).

But I do know happily married couples and just because my marriage was really pretty awful right from year 1 and was dreadful by year 19 - it didn't break down, it just never was there in a sense (kind of illustrates how actually the annulment wasn't too off the mark), doesn't mean everyone's is. What I do know is that it is much much better for me and the children since and that all those years when it seemed for the best to be together may be for some of them it wasn't.

The new Bond film is called a Quatum of Solace because Ian Fleming wrote a short story of that name in which, probably reflecting his own unhappy marriage, he wrote about when the quantum of the solace you obtain from the marriage is zero then it is over and you leave. I left when the quantum was zero. It sounds like Caitlin is nearer 10 out of 10, cup runneth over which is great.

[J]

Caitlin, you have taken away the apostrophe, thank you for putting up with my pedantry *goes and buys Caitlin a latte and big bun*.

[J]

LOL KM, actually I suspect that I wouldnt be able to tell if I did have PMT, what with my brain being so ruled by my clinical chocolate dependency issues...

[Jane2]

Actually, that wasn't what I meant to say at all. I meant to say, Yank, how terrible for you. Please let us know if it all works out all right.
And I meant to say, Geri, your husband may be feeling exactly the same about you, but too polite to say anything.

[Jane2]

Since we've gone all hormonal, I'm just letting you all know that what I said might happen if I spoke too soon about being through the menopause has in fact happened. Yes, after six months PMT free, I went all grumpy and tetchy felt unaccountably tired and headachy and the inevitable followed. I'd begun to really enjoy the no-monthly-cycle level-as-a-playing-field no-bad-moods phase of life.
I began to think, this must be what it's like to be a man...(level mood). You know where in Simone de Beauvoir's book she says that all male Jews wake up each morning and thank God that they weren't born a woman?

[Kieransmum]

I think that secretly J is a complete nightmare when she has PMT, and she comes and posts her on another name (or several): gets it out of her system and returns to her sensible calm self!

[mumoftwo]

I know what you mean, Gipsy! I think the point wasn't to be identical, but that you found your way as a couple to deal with the inevitable conflict that arises over the years. I'm sure my husband would also prefer it if I shouted a bit less, but it basically fits with his belief that relationships can contain shouting and that's quite normal, plus we do tend to say 'there we go again' rather than see it as calamitous. Agree with MumofBoyz that some people never shout and that suits them fine, others prefer a good airing!

[Geri]

I am so envious. After 28 years I have to say that I don't fancy my OH any more. He's done nothing wrong, it's just the way it is. I often look at really happy couples and wish I had some of that. But I can't throw a lifetime away on the offchance, and I can't hurt my OH or children.

[Jaffa]

I'm 21 and have been with my current boyfriend for just over 6 months. Now while I'm not exactly at the "he is the one" stage yet, we get on fabulously and have managed to make our relationship work despite both being in our final year of uni (lots of stress - and tears from me! - with dissertations and exams) and living in Aberdeen (me) and Glasgow (him). Now that we are both finished uni with our whole lives ahead of us it is a very exciting time. So many options are available and we constantly talk about the future. To end on a completely sentimental note, i would love it if we were to stay together and have a relationship like some of you have described - it is so heartening to hear they still exist in this age of divorces and infidelity! Thanks for posting all of your stories.

PS - I'd be entirely shameless about PDAs if i was in a happy marriage, go for it!

[Mumofboyz]

MH, re the honeymoon period - I would really define it as that first 2-3 years (?) when you are just madly in love, think the other person is perfect and can't keep your hands off each other. (It's not so much to do with whether you argue or not - some happy relationships thrive on arguments, others never row.)
Inevitably I think this settles down into a more realistic relationship where you know each other's faults and probably bicker a bit, but can still be very happy.
But, as this is Alpha Mummy, the one thing I would say is that some of my friends seem to find the most stressful thing about having kids is that they don't get any 'quality time' with their husband - meaning, romantic dinners for two, strolling along hand in hand etc. (So, for example, if they book a holiday they'll pick a resort with a creche so they can do things together as a couple.) It's as if the kids have come and interrupted this honeymoon time - and this seems to put a lot of strain on the relationship.
I had 10 years to do this with my partner before our kids came along, so although it's lovely to do it occasionally, we're not always desperate to steal away and have time together.

[MH]

People often mention the honeymoon period - any comments on how long it lasts? I've been with my boyf for well over a year and we've lived together for 7 months....and not one single argument. Again, not wanting to be smug but we're great together - both kind to each other, loving, understanding etc. We're slowly planning our future (buying a flat together in June, discussing when we want children) but it's true I'm worried the honeymoon period might end. Thing is, when I say no arguments I mean really no arguments. Nothing irritates me about him and vice versa. We agree on most things and anything else we agree to disagree. One little thing about him irritated me when I first moved in and he changed it straight away without complaining. Thing is, when I worry to my friends that it seems too good to be true they look at me as if I'm crazy and ask why I'm looking for problems! Am I crazy?

[Gipsy]

MoT - very interesting! I think that fundamentally, hubs and I are in two different camps. He's a not-talker, whereas I'm a shout it out. I just figured that all guys pretty much fell into the not-talker category.

J - you know what, I gave up on that whole women aren't ruled by their menstrual cycle thing a while ago. You know what, I am. I have PMT. I get it quite bad some months. It ruins my judgement and can make me prickly and emotional for a week. I've tried everything from evening primrose oil to 'being a rational human being not ruled by her hormones'. You know what? I just don't have the energy for it anymore. I am now happy to just try my best not to let PMT rule me, and if it does take over, then I am quite happy to throw up my hands and tell all and sundry to not take it personally, it is just that time of the month. I don't take it as permission to just be an absolute witch at that time of the month! I just accept that hormones do rule me from time to time, and to remember that and be accommodating to hubs etc when they react badly to me at that time of the month (on account of how I'm acting). If that makes sense.

And if I can't - well then I just shout 'it's that time of my month that I'm going to be an absolute witch' and run away :)

[mumoftwo]

Yank, sorry to hear that, although I think a bit (not a lot) of time out is always helpful if you are really stuck. However, I have to comment on the notion of it being desirable to be 'friends' with ones husband. Someone earlier on said 'why can't we treat our husbands like our friends?' I think this is perfectly obvious; you don't have to pick up your friends' smelly socks, if she gets a job in Outer Mongolia, you don't have to relocate there, if she's having an 'off' year, you can murmer sympathetically down the phone but don't actually have to face her day after day...the list is endless. Indeed, it is often when friends do live together that the strains and stresses of everyday life start to tell, and that's without having to agree on everything from finances to where to send the children to school.

Secondly, I'm not sure (for me anyway) whether it is even desirable to be friends first and foremost with my husband. There is a brilliant book by John Gottman (called something like 'Why marriages fail and how yours can succeed') who although he sounds like a bit of a self-help nut, is actually a professor of psychology and has analysed the talking of thousands of couples and followed them to see which ones split up. In his opinion, there are several styles of marriage (only one of which is consensual, discuss everything nicely friendship, the others are 'avoidant' and 'argue a lot' - it's not called that, obviously). His theory is that it doesn't matter which style you have as a couple as long as you basically match (so people who don't like talking about issues are matched with similar, arguers with arguers). This made me feel a lot better when I read this book as I always wanted us to be lovely calm people who reasoned everything out, instead of the passionate shouters we clearly are. The danger of being too much like friends is that you become 'just friends', although obviously I do think that you should like the person as a pre-requiste!

[j]

Caitlin, rotfl about flotsam-porn. heh heh.

interesting to know that I am allowed to be a witch when menstruating, I seem to have missed out on that opportunity..

[Yank]

How odd to open this thread today after my husband moved out last night - only briefly I hope so we can decompress and refocus our energy on us. That said, refreshing to read the good relationship comments and nearly everyone writing that they are 'friends' first and foremost. Its the foundation of a good marriage.

[bikeshopgirl]

J - I'm going to give an antipodean viewpoint - I know you only stated an interest in the US, but the www brings timesonline down under too!

Ad-mum - yes, my nearest and dearest does do things like leave his toenails clippings on the living room carpet and it's best not to start me on the topic of his farting. :-~

However, he's one in a million. I've never respected anyone else's opinion more, and am so glad he's my bub's dad. Couldn't be luckier. E.g. while playing golf recently, one of the other blokes remarked that when he & his wife had kids, he'd told her "my job is earning the money, yours is the kids", and consequently didn't do any extra domestic stuff. I guess that's the Aussie stereotype, so you won't be surprised. My other half's response? "That's not exactly fair, is it mate? You work 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, and she works 24/7." Who wouldn't be smug about that?

[Delilah]

Not quite sure where tracey's coming from (fnaar). But I always thought it was bad luck to say too many good things about your DH in public - as the wonderful Bonnie Rait put it:

Woman be wise, keep youah mouth shut
Don' advertise youah man
Don't go aroun', gossiping,
Sayin' what your good man really can do
You tell me 'bout youah baby, tell me he's so fine
Lord, I muight go an' fin' out, try to make him mine,
Woman be wise, keep yoah mouth shut, Doan' advertise youah man...

I'm sure Jilly Cooper and Vanessa Feltz would agree!

Best is just to be fairly vague about your own property and pump your friends vigorously for info on theirs.

[tracey]

:( hello. yes. actually it all sounds very nice. good for you.

Daddy Pig rules. He has the best laugh ever.

[Caitlin MOran]

J - Pete's comfortable enough in his manhood not to be threatened by the idea of me fancying Daddy Pig from Peppa Pig. He had a crush on "Funny Lady" from Teletubbies for quite some time. Within the extremely limited parameters of the first few years of parenthood, it was how we "put some spice" into the relationship. As if we were shipwrecked on an island, and were trying to make pornography out of the jetsam.
And Tracey - are you having your period? *understanding face*

[tracey]

or not. He might just be adorable. But still a smug cow.

[tracey]

Pete is screwing 8 different women and each time he ejaculates, he sighs, "My wife doesn't understand me, all she talks about is things like putting cardboard in the kids' lunchboxes". Then he has a guilt attack and flies home to do a domestic chore.
For God's sake, where do you get them from? How unutterably lame is this woman. We all love our DH but in our own way. You smug cow.

[glitter_junkie]

On the women moaning and not the men: I have a few close friends (most of whom I shared a house with at University, we were very close and they saw me split up with the partner I had when I met them and then fall in love with my current partner and love of my life, which probably helped us bond) who I would share most things with. However, I have had several conversations with close male friends over the years as well as my partner who concluded that men tend to have friends, and then a best friend who is their confidante, lover, wife/partner and world.
A good friend of mine attributes this as being the reason men are so devestated when dumped (he thinks they feel it more acutely, as if women never get their hearts broken!)
I hope I'm still like you, supermarket snoggers and walkers with wandering hands after 13 years.
Oh, and how long was it before you had a big fight? My friends think we're odd, we haven't argued yet!

[Wendy V]

22+ years and we still fancy each other, like each other, watch The Apprentice together, read the papers together, and care madly about our children. What unnerves us is when friends who have been together as long as we have (and there aren't too many of those now) suddenly unravel. The arrival of children can cause a crisis; but so can their departure: children going to university seems to have been disastrous for some seemingly happy partnerships.

As for revelling in our besottedness, I remember talking to one couple about how lucky my OH and I were to have found each other, and two days later that couple split up. Maybe our gushing made one of them think, actually, we're not that well-matched... Since then I've kept my mouth shut. But I never whinge about my other half, or my kids. Not even on Alpha Mummy.

[wonderwench]

Surely loyalty to your husband is most important and whining about his shortcomings to third parties is pretty disloyal?
I love my husband very much, there are absolutely times when he frustrates me, and however there are times when I do that to him. However, this is all just trivial nonsense and we just celebrate being together and as a family.
Given the statistics of domestic violence and the frequency of women killed at the hands of their partners/husbands, then perhaps there are women out there who do have the right to a "whingefest", however as we know these women remain silent

[Alex]

I think what we are seeing here is the dichotomy between the Brits, who find 'the love' all a bit nauseating (I do see where they're coming from - I'm British too!) and the rest of the world. Maybe we're just more comfortable being cynics rather than very emotional about our families? Which, frankly, is fair enough. Whatever keeps us cheerfully unsatisfied! :)

[Americaninlove]

I'm a married woman in America and I feel the same thing here. My husband is wonderful and I long to express that to people. However, it feels like bragging to a homeless person about your brand new sports car...rude and insensitive. If they don't have that, and don't see that anywhere in their foreseeable future, it's a hard thing to hear. But, I remember being single when all my friends were getting married and feeling that sense of jealousy. I would just remind myself that I love them and couldn't be happier for their excitement, and I'd lose that jealousy pretty quick. Needless to say, I tell my close friends how great he is and I also tell them his faults when I need to as well. Because the bottom line is, no matter how perfect he is for me, he's not perfect.

[JEN]

Admitting you love your husband is like divulging the fact that, post 35, you got pregnant after one try. It's just not done. Out of respect for those girls who are struggling or because all 'appropriate' conversation must be laced with cynicism, I'm not sure. For the most part, I don't mind that my happy relationship is unmentionable...the thing that gets me is the difficulty finding other happy couples to spend time with!

[Kieransmum]

I'm with Ad-Mum on the difficulty of reading others' stories of bliss without gagging slightly!

Fertility issues: having experienced that, I suppose yes, LM, not exactly that people take their children for granted but that they are so quick to emphasise the negative parts of parenthood.
About once a day, when one or other child is really frustrating me, I stop and think: I would have killed for this problem four years ago: and it completely dissipates the negative feelings I have. Similarly with hearing bout other people's pregnancies: unlike Caitlin, I really don't think Ha Ha, now you'll learn, but Oh how incredibly lucky you are, when someone tells me that they're going to have their first child.

[j]

Caitlin, I have to ask- that famous post from you about which TV characters you would shag-
were you joking? or is that compatible with being very happily married?

IOW, are fantasies and similar rudeness with friends/ on blogs disloyal or just a laugh?

[Izzyalou]

Today is our 16th anniversary as it happens and my spouse and I work literally 3 feet apart, all day everyday, and have done for 18 years. He is my best friend and I love him more than just about anything in the world. Is that being smug? I think it's being wise. If you've found a good partner one should celebrate that every moment.
He's just awesome!

[Lazy Mummy]

J - I wasn't thinking you thought/were implying Americans are brash (think I know you better than that from all the AM debates) - rather that that's just a typical British stereotype. In general I find Americans v. positive, but they don't go round saying "my spouse is amazing/awful" - at least, not the people I mix with!

[Sarah]

I think there are at least three Sarah's on this thread, which is confusing me if no one else :) Will have to try to come up with a more original name.

[j]

On the children q, I havent experienced fertility issues but I have the experience of disability and it leads me to two things.
Firstly how ungrateful some parents are about their thoroughly nice teenagers who are achieveing perfectly OK and are pleasant and hard-working, but their parents are somehow never satisfied. I want to say to them, take a step back and see how lovely your kids are before you moan that they are not doing exactly what you fantasised about when they were first born.

Secondly I have to giggle when I see how much trouble some have with discipline. Especially of little ones. And honestly, the amount of trouble these children can cause you, even if you say, "no, you can't. Final decision. No whinging." is just nothing compared to what an autistic boy can manage if he really turns his energy to it.

[j]

Hi LM- I wouldnt want to imply that US people are brash in any way, just that they may have less false modesty about sharing something that is good.
After all, Cherie is hardly a model of good old fashioned British reserve, with her stories on, well, everything .

And that fine phrase "too much information" is American, I think?

[Sarah]

I think that quite a few husbands are rubbish, which is why people complain about them. Some of the stories I've hears and my own experiences, I have to be honest, bear this out.

It's difficult but to be honest, I find myself playing down my complaints so it doesn't sound so much like I absolutely loathe him. Which I do sometimes.

[Lazy Mummy]

J -

Good question about Americans. I live (as have mentioned before) in Seattle, which was founded by Scandinavians/Lutherans and is a fairly laconic place, so even though many (most) of my US friends are Californian or East Coast transplants, most people I know are pretty discreet and private. I think it's a misnomer that Americans are loud, brash & indiscreet. Probably based on the Oprah/Hollywood/LetItAllHangOut-CelebConfession culture. (Though sadly that seems to be gaining ground in the UK too, ever since Princess Di & now with the ghastly Hello!/OK!/z-list-dyed-orange-plastic-WAG-wannabes.)

[A Heloise]

Great article. My partner and I have been together nearly five years and I love him deeply. He's incredibly intelligent, kind, loving, respectful, witty, supportive and generous. He is truly my best friend. I bless the day we met and the fact I have found someone so wonderful to share my life with. It's not uncool, its just rare and I have come to realise this. He's a great believer in equality and the world is a better place for him, which I try and tell him as often as I can.

[Lazy Mummy]

Ad-Mum,

On your earlier comment about why do we treat our friends better than we treat our husbands (and I agree - at least, my husband & I do), there's an old saying:

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Sadly, it seems to be true. We're more likely to take our immediate family for granted because they *are* our family, I suppose, than people who are slightly removed.

(On a slightly related subject, I wonder if people who've had fertility issues think that those who haven't take their children for granted. Certainly, if I'd known how hard trying to have a second one would be, I'd have appreciated my earlier pregnancy/early childhood of my existing child more).

[Happy singleton]

All the ladies who complain that their men are aliens.....why are you in relationships with them, then? I think you should leave ladies who 'REALLY LOVE' their partners alone! What's wrong with being happy, in whatever state you're in?

[Happy singleton]

All the ladies who complain that their men are aliens.....why are you in relationships with them, then? I think you should leave ladies who 'REALLY LOVE' their partners alone! What's wrong with being happy, in whatever state you're in?

[Ad-Mum]

ENOUGH ALREADY! Surely he leaves his toenail clippings lying around? Or snores? Or farts when he walks up steep stairs? There's a good reason why we moan about men. Because talking/writing about 'my-truest-bestest-love' is slightly vomit making (and a touch american don't you think?).

[anoninlove]

We're going to be married or 14 years this summer. We got married really young (by today's standards) in a haze of recreational drugs. We, along with everyone else, are absoluetly amazed it worked out. We're still in love, studied and travelled the world together, and recently had two adorable kids after more than a decade of being responsibility free. I love him more every day. He gets funnier, we argue less, we're long over that seven-year-itch bit. We 'grew up' together. He's best friend, lover and more. He also hasn't aged a day since he was 25. I'm a lucky lady. But you don't say these things out loud, do you? But dear me, I LOVE HIM SO. And as he says himself, "A wife is for life, not just Christmas."

[Ad-Mum]

Oh God. I now see that there's a damn good reason why no-one admits to being happy with their husband. Lovely and life-afirming as they are, all these 'I am so blissfully happy, we are as one' etc posts are making me feel decidedly queasy. Can we please just get back to the 'aren't all men useless' stuff?

[ED]

do you get performance anxiety about your marriage? After years of friends saying things like "i just want a relationship like yours", or "you guys make me believe in marriage", i've begun to feel a sense of obligation about the whole thing. i mean yes he and i get on really well, and yes we are really happy but i'm so anxious about shattering my friends hopes by exposing us as less than perfect that i've become slightly psychotic about protecting them from reality. i worry it would break them if they realised we don't spend our lives being ' like sooo spookily in -sinc'. Some of my friends are so dependant on us as proof people can be happy together, that when i'm with them i'd actually lie rather than publically disagree with him, i mean hopes a fragile thing who am i to shatter it for the sake of a little thing like truth? And my husband is not stupid, the man is smart with a borderline evil streak - which is probably why i married him and he has found a way to turn this to his advantage.

"Oh you guys are going to play mud football, ed looooves mud football, i'm sure she'll make up a team, no dear i'm fine i'll just sit here and enjoy my pint you enjoy yourself", followed by a pat on the arse that can only be described as smug.

being the happy couple is just too much pressure, i may have to divorce his knibs just for the pleasure of being able to sit in a pub garden with him, with out being co-opted into some kind of sporting event in order to maintain the image of the perfect marriage, and not show up my husband as the sadistic toad he is.

as far as i can see the perfect marriage is when no-one but you knows how happy you are, and there's lots of time holding hands on the sofa and saying to each other "don't tell anyone, but i bloody love you and no-one's as happy as us" .

[Eluned]

I think it's a combination of competition and not showing off, as J said. I think in general, sort of waving your happiness in people's faces, however innocent and genuine, is seen as rude. It's a great shame really but I think village life is different. I find that when I talk lovingly about my husband and all the fantastic things he does with the children and all the thoughtful things he does for me with my friends from the village I live in I'll *occasionally* get an 'alright for some' response and feel really shit about mentioning it but mostly whoever I'm talking to will chip in with all the great things their husband/wife/cariad do for them and we'll have a long conversation about how fab men are and how they take so much crap, from the media especially. Srsly you'd think there were just two types of men in the world; nasty cads and stupid oafs. Yah, so maybe it's more down to stress or something?

Anyway I'm going to meet my lovely son (I think our teenage boys get a bum deal as well, in regard of being moaned about so much) in the caffi and take him to see Iron Man :D That's one crappy thing about village life - nearest sinema is 25 miles away.

[witch-in-the-middle]

You're not alone Caitlin, I feel very happy with my husband but to say as much to other people smacks of being a complacent Smug Married. I don't think there's any harm in letting off steam occasionally - except to a family member or friend with a memory like an elephant who stores all your moans to produce at a later date.

[bushra]

J: i would put it down to emotional immaturity, when i think about it most sons and daughters are pretty much treated like children until the day their parents marry them off, so they never really think about what it will be like having to share their future with another person. quite a shock to the system when all of a sudden you have a husband or wife and not really thought about what this means.

but yes, there is also a level of embarrassment when it comes to talking about how you feel, it's almost like you're not really allowed to have those kind of feelings let alone share them. welcome to my world, where so much will go unsaid.

BOB: phew! that's all right then!

[Gipsy]

Congrat's Sarah!

Sallysays - for me it is less whingeing and more sharing with my girlfriends the whole men are such aliens at times thing. Sometimes the male thought process just seems so utterly utterly incomprehensible, and no doubt we do to them too.

[SallySays]

J- I'm American. My comment is about halfway down the page.

I do think it would be odd to chat about how much I love my husband. Funny that it's more natural for women to want to sit around and complain.

But truly, any bitching I hear from the other mothers is very light-hearted & possibly done with affection. I think most of the women in my area would not like to admit it if something were seriously wrong with their marriage.

[Sarah]

I've only been married for 19 months so maybe it's still the honeymoon period but I do love my husband and have no fear in telling others. I also tell him every day. It took me a long time to find such a fantastic partner and I am very proud to be his wife. My parents divorced when I was very young and that experience made me wary of committing to marriage with anyone but as soon as John came along I knew he was 'the one' and finally took the plunge at 37. No regrets so far and I'm determined to make it stay that way too!

[Baggofbones]

No no, Bushra!
I only criticise semi-literate Times journalists nowadays... Bloggers are exempt from grammatical criticism (unless they're Supermother, obviously)...

[j]

Bushra your post was interesting too, why would the girls all crack up at the thought of liking their husbands? is it because they are a bit embarrassed by the idea of having a man in their lives at all?

[j]

Can some of the US posters comment on what they see? I am wondering if part of what Caitlin describes is the general Brit tendancy not to be too positive about things in case we come across as "showing off", which is ingrained in us from babydom. Delilah and LM, do you think in the US people are more prepared to say that they are proud of their marriage?

[lightheartedmum]

My husband drives me mad! Yes, I love him & adore his devotion to our family. I fall in love with him again on a regular basis and often he says something endearing that makes me just want to reach out and touch him.

But he's human, and I'm human and sometimes life is hard.

Over the fifteen years we've known each other we've had many ups and downs, but I can confidently say that we are both equally horrified at the thought of ever abandoning the other.

During the bad times, I do complain to my friends. But there was once when I rang a girlfriend to complain that my husband was taking me for granted, and was surprised to find her defending him - only to find out a few days later that she knew he was in the process of organising a surprise birthday party for me!

[S. Smith]

Good for you. I'm glad you're happy. I think (from my own highly unscientific mental survey of everyone I know),that your situation is fairly rare, which is a shame. Some men are definitely much more "family men" than others but also there is a Britisn tendency to gripe about one's partner, which I don't think helps at all. Shouldn't that kind of problem be sorted out with one's husband, face to face, not by bitching behind his back?

[Elizabeth]

We have close friends who bicker about each other constantantly--to each of us.

My husband recently told me that he didn't really know what to say, and ended up lying (agreeing with) the male half of our friends/couple when he made a complaint about his relationship with his wife and added "oh well, that is just the way all women are, we just have to deal with it."

Now while not discussing the sexist tone to that remark, my husband thought, Well, no mate, that is the way you and your wife relate to each other, my wife and I actually have a good relationship. But instead he said, "oh yea, I guess so."

But I think it may be a British thing. My husband didn't want to seem like he was bragging, while at the same time wanted to give his friend a little support. But it does endorse the belief that marriages are more likely to be struggling than thriving.

[Ad-Mum]

It seems to me that we are often really good at appreciating our friends, and rather bad at appreciating our partners.

For instance, we'll forgive our friends all sorts of dreadful character traits, yet bitch about the slightest failings in our husbands. We'll always try to make our friends feel good about themselves, yet think nothing of putting our husbands down in private and public. We'll always remember manners with friends - we'll turn up on time, ring if we're going to be late, say thank you whenever required and put ourselves out. We forget these common courtesies with our partners.

My husband is my very best friend, and I try to remind myself every day to always treat him as such. That, in my opinion, is the way to keep a marriage strong.

But, hell, who ever really knows the answer?

[Kieransmum]

I've been thinking today, I really don't hear many women complain about their menfolk much. Except in the joky way.
I have always assumed that the very unhappy, like MumtoTeenagers, kept quiet, and the happier mums were secure enough to let off steam.

[mumoftwo]

I would be delighted if my husband were off-loading some of the day to day stresses of living alongside me with some of his guy friends. I have noticed that when things have been hard between us, he simply has no-one really close to talk to about it (as I'm his main friend), and I think it would help him get a better perception of whether I am indeed an unreasonable lunatic or actually quite a normal wife with similar issue to lots of other couples! I don't think it is disloyal to talk through your marriage worries or moans with a very select few close friends, however, it is disloyal to be contemptuous or dismissive of them. If my husband truly thought I was awful (as opposed to a bit irritating but basically adorable), I would rather he did talk it out with close friends and decided what to do about it rather than leave me guessing, and then surprise me by getting up and leaving (which I have seen men do and is my secret fear).

[mumofteenagers]

First marriage lasted 5 years, single Mum of three for 13 years, in second marriage past 5 years that is everything Caitlin describes.Both of us are very careful not to take anything for granted.It has to be said though, that rubbishing husbands (even with good cause as I had in my first attempt)is horribly disloyal.When I divorced, all my friends said 'we knew something was wrong because you were so unhappy'but a (misguided?)sense of loyalty and a horrible feeling of failure kept me quiet.How would all these chatty mums feel if their husbands were ranting on about how awful their wives were? Or maybe men just don't chat about the misery and act it out? With affairs?

[Patsy Pearson]

Both my sisters are divorced, so I feel cagey about mentioning to them just how much I like and love my husband. Yes we fight like cat and dog sometimes, but that is because we are very similar and 'factual' people. We also share the same sense of humour. He always puts the family first and unlike many of his friends, has never been on a holiday without me and the family. We met later in life, perhaps that is the answer, I don't know, but I have never loved anyone else and can only imagine desolation if he were to die. He is my soul-mate and I know there will be only one in my lifetime. I think people very often get pressued into making partnership commitments thinking life will always be rosey. It may not be, but if you have a few dips you value the highs so much more and they get you through the difficult times.
Perhaps some people aren't capable of the same depth of feeling full stop?

[Jennifer]

It's so positive to hear everyone speak so highly of their husbands/partners. Ben and I were in fits of laughter last night after he stood up, knocked over his glass of water, moved to get a dish towel and knocked over mine in the process. At moments like those you know the magic is still there.

But in all honesty, I don't see what's wrong with complaining about the things that bug me about my husband - or just about marriage in general. Hey, I dearly loved some of my roommates when I was single but they still drove me mad with the little daily clashes you have when you live with someone.

I'll have dinner with Jen or Ruth and talk about the niggling things - or sometimes the big things - that crop up in marriage and it's a release valve. I don't mind other women complaining about their marriages and I can empathise. Having a good marriage is hard and takes a lot of energy.

[Kieransmum]

Absolutely. Because when he talks to me about work, it's a bit onesided, as I'm not a specialist in his field. But this was much more on equal terms; I have read more than he since literature was much original subject, but when you're talking about a single book that doesn't really matter.

[Liz]

Km, the book group sounds fab. Lovely to have some time together to talk about other things!

[bushra]

BoB, yikes, i can imagine you going all over my blog with a red pen!

[Kieransmum]

Oh, Liz, that's lovely. I like the idea of thanking someone for doing something, rather than nagging them when they don't.
Must try that one...or get my husband to.
Did I mention we were going out to a book group this week? It was such fun. So good to have an intelligent conversation together that didn't revolve around nappies and pre-school...

[Liz]

I love and like my husband and have done since the day we first properly met over 10 years ago. Although we have niggles as everyone does he is a wonderful husband and father and a huge support through some pretty stressful times together. We've also been together since university so have grown up together which helps.

I've found the main thing I've noticed about the way we work is that we very rarely criticise the other but thank them for doins something - i.e I;m on M/L at the moment and DH will regularly thank me for ironing or washing etc but won't expect me to do it. Lovely man

[anonforthisthread]

In many ways the best thing about my marriage is the worst thing about it too: the fact that I love my partner so much that I am terrified of losing him, so that even the most minor arguments are absolutely emotionally paralysing. I am deeply in love with my partner but that didn't stop me being absolutely adament that domestic violence was a no-no: there was one isolated incident years ago, and I made it abundantly clear that this was an absolute relationship-finisher if it ever happened again.
Fortunately we didn't have children at the time.
It hasn't. There have been lesser problems. He self-harmed himself quite seriously, cutting his arms, and threw a glass on the floor where it shattered in front of the children: he wasn't trying to hurt them at all but again, I was as clear as I could be that this needed to be a one-off, and if he couldn't get his temper under control we were finished as a couple. That was last year.
So I am deeply, deeply in love, but I cannot say that our time together has been easy. I have to live with the nagging fear that one day something else will happen, something that I cannot ignore. But for the time being we seem to be maturing together into a more balanced, harmonious partnership.
You take it one day at a time.

You might say that it is a weakness on my part not to have walked out. I think that staying, and trying to work through the issues, has been a harder option, requiring more strength of character: I knew I could survive on my own or as a single mother, so the question has had to be "Do I think this man with all his faults is trustworthy and honest enough that he can grow and change significantly?" For the time being, the answer is yes.

And yes, of course, he is also a loving husband who can be great fun.

[doggerel]

AM, are you trying to stir up trouble between husband and wife, here?
First we have the Cherie Blair post,encouraging us to moan about our spouse's worst habits. Then Caitlin tells us we can post anonymously (presumably to encourage us to spill some really incriminating secrets).
I'm proud of the Alphamummies for being so discreet and maintaining such high standards of blogging.
We can also teach the Times a thing or two about grammar! (Thank you, BofB).
Has anyone suspected that this will all be regurgitated in a comment article in Times2 in due course?
I noticed that Radio 4 pm is running a thing about alcohol abuse, (following the astounding revelations on "How much should you drink around your children?")
As for today's Comment in Times2 by someone called Alice Fordham (what happened to the down-to-earth Sandra Parsons?) it appears to be a mish-mash of regurgitated ideas from certain Times blogs, and is completely pointless and boring.

[AnonForThisPost]

I don't talk about how great my husband is or what a wonderful relationship we have because it just sounds so smug, and as the media and society keeps hammering on - there is apparently nothing worse than smug marrieds.

People often assume we're newlyweds, or that we've not been together long. This isn't helped, I suspect, by the fact that we have a young child. But in truth, we've been together nearly 20 years, and married for most of that.

We don't always have a great sex life. In fact there have been a few periods where we have had dry spells that have lasted a year. But we've always had cuddles, we've always enjoyed snogging, and we just like feeling each other up. It is very very hard for me to resist grabbing my husband's behind, as it is just so utterly gorgeous. I often fall in love with him all over again. Sometimes I'll just be sitting on the sofa reading, and he might be watching TV or listening to music, and I'll look over at him and my heart will stop and I'll feel that rushing sensation you get as you fall hopelessly head over heels in love.

A work colleague once commented how lovely it was that I was still so clearly in love with my husband after all these years. When I asked him what he meant, he said that every time I mentioned his name I'd pause ever so slightly and get this faraway look in my eyes.

And I'll never admit any of this publicly to anyone, except of course my husband, because to do so might jinx it. It scares me so much that marriages end, and really I don't know why they end. I think we're utterly happy and wonderful, but then I hear so many ex wives saying 'we were utterly happy and wonderful, I don't know what happened'. And then there are all those celebrities warbling on about how happy and wonderful their relationships are, just before they end.

This happy and wonderful is just too precious to me. I don't want to lose it.

[mumoftwo]

I am with SallySays, I certainly don't go on and on about how great my husband is to my friends because it would be really boastful and quite boring, however, all my friends know there is an underlying core of love and passion there, and all defend him to the hilt if we're having a rough time (as well as diplomatically agreeing with me, of course). Personally, I find a good moan to friends I've had for twenty years very cathartic on occasions, they see the longer view and remind you why you started out on this enterprise of marriage on the hard days; all my friends are very supportive of my marriage, as I am of theirs. On the easy days, of course it's lovely to skip around holding hands and gazing at each other and personally I think a nice-smelling husband is one of the absolute pluses in life!

[M]

Well, you get a very low mark from me this morning, Lynne Truss, for your bad humour.

[Kim]

Well, the OH and I have been together 14 years and he still makes me laugh more than anyone else I know.

But I'm not going to be complacent. I have friends who were together for 25 years, married for nearly 20 of them, and I thought they were easily the happiest couple I knew - they seemed perfect together. And then they split up last year when he announced he hadn't been happy for ages and it just wasn't working any more.

[AW]

Isn't it great to be in love? Especially, I think, in a solid, stable, established sort of love. I've been with my husband since I was 16 (21 years ago! Eeeek!) and married to him since I was 21. I know I sometimes don't appreciate what I have, but then I stop and think about it and he's a wonderful friend, husband and Dad.
I've often thought - even if 4 out of 10 marriages end in divorce, that means 6 out of 10 marriages last. That's amazing isn't it, to think that 6 out of 10 couples stick together 'till death us do part'!
Three cheers for happy marriages!

[Baggofbones]

"cool and kid-like and invincible".
Aha! So it's cool to be ungrammatical. Does that mean that my former students were being deliberately cool rather than being semi-literate when they submitted this kind of writing?
Well, I'm glad we've cleared that one up.

(I'm not convinced that thirtysomething mothers really need to sound cool or child-like, but that's another debate altogether).

[M]

Yes, Bushra, it is and I think it suits the piece. " Pete and I" just wouldn't be so cool and kid-like and invincible.
I know that feeling you describe, Caitlin. Mine was cut short and I don't know if I'll find it again, but no-one has made me laugh the way we did.

[bushra]

ah c'mon, it might be the times but this is a blog, innit.

[Baggofbones]

Caitlin - "me and Pete [dropped the kids off]". Is this howler also because you were raised in or by wolves?

I suggest you ban former or current university teachers from reading your posts...

[Vanessa]

Yeah, mine's really fab too - been together 9 years and married for 4 and we are very affectionate and romantic with each other all the time, thank each other for little things like cooking a nice dinner or taking out the bin and are generally "nice" to each other all the time.

The advice I got from my parents before I got married was just to think before you speak and never take each other for granted, and it seems to work. They've been married 40 years, as have my in-laws, so we have some excellent role models.

But there must be some freaky "married" gene in mine and husband's family as in our WHOLE family (parents, grandparents, aunts & uncles, siblings and cousins) we don't have a single divorce.

[SallySays]

"So the question is - am I only hearing bad things about everyone else's partners because, actually, they're doing the same as me? Or is it genuinely quite rare for people to still be properly besotted with their partners after 13 years..."

I think it's the former. To me, it would be strange to sit around with my friends and talk about how much I love my husband/what a terrific father he is... And he is! He actually does everything you mentioned (except for that cardboard sandwich thing) and I never fully appreciated how great all of those things are until you just wrote about it. I'm a horrible fishwife. Thank you for setting me straight.

But talking about my wonderful husband to the playground set would be like tell them how great my kids are. It would feel like bragging. I'd rather talk about how Johnny has a nose picking habit and what can I do to get Sally to share her toys and stop saying the word "penis".

About 90-95 percent of the parents in my chidren's school (ages 5-10) are married and I'd say the majority of the ones that I know are still happy together. It will be interesting to see how those numbers change as my kids get older.

[GillyB]

Great subject Caitlin. I remember feeling really surprised at the husband scorn among some new mum friends when my first child was born. Could it be a parenting phenomena, I can't remember witnessing the same with married friends without children?

The best piece of NCT advice I received was not to allow a parenting skills gap to develop with your partner in the early months. That is to say, the at-home parent will naturally develop their skills more quickly than the at-work (away from home) parent. Thankfully, I consciously kept my mouth shut when DH fumbled with nappies or held her in a way she didn't like and I think that saved a lot of resentment building. I suspect those early resentments start small and then just get built upon until your husband-wife relationship has fractured a very different mum-dad relationship.

I regularly count my blessings that I met my husband 16 years ago and love him more now than ever. Also, knowing the marriage failure rate I am conscious to never take him for granted.

I've just previewed this and I sound really pleased with myself! You're right, it's really hard to talk about being happily married without risk of offending. It would be a shame if moaning is simply safer social practice.

[Lazy Mummy]

Great subject, Caitlin. As KM mentioned, I posted comments on the Blair thread about the fact that in general we don't divulge details of our relationship. After all - isn't that why it's a private life? (I like having one, even if Cherie doesn't).

Having said that, interestingly, KM, I actually divulge more of my relationship here on AM than to my friends & acquaintances (which might tell you how little most people close to us know about our marriage). Somehow a little easier when anonymous than to people who know us both, and also actually, none of my American friends discuss their relationships much (ironic since the stereotype is Brits=reserved; Americans=not).

As others have said (& I've said elsewhere) any long-term relationship has its good & bad bits (that stuff is in the traditional marriage vows for a reason). As for us, we've known each other/been together 14 1/2 years; married 13. And as the vows have said, we've had it all so far: richer/poorer; sickness/health; better/worse. And we're still in love, and still love each other and couldn't imagine not being together (even during the worse bits).

[bushra]

posting without going through the comments but i will read them, honest!

"But do you know who I can tell about this? No-one. No. One. You can't talk about how much you love your partner, and what a great father they are, because, by and large, no-one else seems to be saying it."

i had an arranged marriage, as did many of the people my age within the extended family. half of them lack maturity and to even discuss the idea of actually liking your husband would send them in fits of giggles. why is why i don't talk about it with them. but yeah, y'know, he's alright...

[supermother]

I didn't and am divorced but I know people who are happily married and I know people manage that even though I get exposed to so many marital issues, married men getting in touch (I'm not interested) , friends playing around with other women (not me, I'm not into that), marriages where people seem to hate each other and then all those evenings with divorced men who spend 2 hours telling you how awful their marriage was. Despite all that I know some people make it work so I haven't yet made my application to the convent....

[Jacqui]

I think my DH is great and the most wonderful of fathers.Sometimes I keep quiet about it, when one of my friends is having a bad time with their husbands, for example. Most of the time I praise him to the skys :) We've only been married a year but have lived together for nearly 17. I am quite happy to admit that I truly believe that he is my soul mate.

He was away on business a few weeks ago and took books with him so that he could read my girls their bedtime story on the webcam - unfortunately the internet connection at his hotel didn't work so he had to read them over the phone. On one night he was in a bar with his boss but he remembered to bring the book with him and went outside to read it to them.

I have friends who never let their husband do anything when their children were tiny babies because they always thought they could do it better themselves - I never really understood that.

[Maddilion]

Aw, that is lovely. I don't think you should hide your love under a bushel, or apologise for it, just revel in it, enjoy it and feel justly proud that you are still happy. As Mumofboyz said too many marriages end in divorce for whatever reason - mine did, but then I didn't want to be married to him after he slept with my friend. So pat yourselves on the back, snog at checkouts, goose each other in Starbucks and smile serenely while people bemoan their spouses. Good on you!

[J]

but Caitlin I still love your posts.

Am I alone in going yurch when people do sloppy, audibly wet tongue kisses in the street?

this may be a university thing, I am surrounded by randy 19 year olds here.

[John Forbes]

I love my wife and children, I tell them so every day. They tell me the same. I fell in love with Deborah at first sight around 17 years ago, and I love her even more now. Find reasons to love your spouse and children, go to church together, share random acts of kindness, and I bet your love will last forever. Mine will.

[Annamac]

My first husband's behaviour was so awful that listening to other women whinge about their partners' supposed shortcomings always meant that I ended up really depressed, thinking "If that's what they call a problem, I can't say anything about what happens in my house on a regular basis."

Now, second time around, it's how it's supposed to be, hand-holding and all.

[madmummy]

Me I am just posting to say I liked Caitlin's "so the question is..." Very Sex and the City and therefore very current. I think Carrie always used to ask that in her columns.

I too have a tip top husband but I find that if I do dare have a moan to my girlfriends they lash back. Acatually my NCT friends start singing and putting their fingers over their ears!

[...]

You don't know how much this has upset me. All I ever wanted is a marriage like the one you describe. I could tell you about the verbal, physical and emotional abuse I've suffered over the years but this is not the place for it. So be happy and celebrate what you have for some of us are not so lucky.

[Kit]

Another hand-holding couple here after 13 years and three children, but it can be a problem for some girl friends when you can no longer contribute to the 'men are awful' conversations and have to keep smugly silent or else invent something.

Maybe the women with great husbands just don't want to advertise it for fear of either jinxng it or attracting predators onto their patch?!

[Caitlin MOran]

Sorry J :-( I am a savage raised by wolves. Well, raised IN Wolves. Wolverhampton. I think it's because I anthromorphize everything. But I will try more betterly. And for those who don't want to post under their usual names, in order to give their point of view, please feel free. I genuinely am very curious.

[J]

attacking, even, I can spell but my typing is crap.

[J]

Caitlin, while we are attackeing Jennifer for being unable to spell biscuit can I just say it's not "It's name" it's "its" name. Please. This *is* the Times.

"Its" as in "his" or "hers".

It's means "it is".

now tell me I need to get a life, sigh, I am so old...

[Kathryn]

We don't have children, I don't know if that makes a difference, and of course we argue and have rough patches when we're tired and fed up, probably with life in general, but I'm glad to hear we aren't the only couple that's been holding hands for 13 years. We also canoodle at checkouts to pass the time and I'm always wondering whether we're putting people off their dinner!

[Sarah]

It amazes me how many couples don't really seem to like each other much, and all the negative stereotypes some people seem to hold about the 'opposite sex' make me wonder why they want a partner of that sex at all.

I am happy to admit to being 'properly besotted' with my partner, not that we haven't had our disagreements and problems over the years, but I love him, and as you say, like him as well. Even if we weren't 'together' we would want to be friends. I wonder if that is what's missing for a lot of people, that it's about the role not the person, about 'having a husband/boyfriend' rather than being in the relationship because your life is better for spending it with this particular person.

We often hold hands - I didn't realise that was considered unusual behaviour! And I'd never dream of bitching about him in public, though I have discussed some problems with close friends, and wouldn't mind if he did the same.

[Mumofboyz]

Caitlin, I often feel like you. I really do love my husband after 16 years together and 10 being married. Yet many of my friends rant on and on about their husbands: how they never see them due to their long hours/nights out with work, how the husbands do bugger all around the house, how they never help with the kids. I just sit there feeling guilty because actually, he does help me (a lot) with the children, is around when I need him and is incredibly supportive. Plus being the lovely man I married.

I do think there is a tendency for people to bitch about their husbands just because it seems like the thing to do. On the other hand, something like 40% of marriages end in divorce, so there must be a lot of unhappy women out there. I have another theory though; I have been with my husband since my early 20s, so, although we've had our ups and downs, we've been through a lot together and now, with two young children, we are very happy. But many women these days marry later - they meet their man at say 32, get hitched a couple of years later and then have kids straight away - so babies come along when they are still in the 'honeymoon' period, and I think maybe this causes problems?

[kieransmum]

Perhaps it is because love is so precious that we are unwilling as a rule to have it dissected in public discussion.
As AnnaMac and LM pointed out on an earlier thread, it is unlikely many of us wish to discuss our marriages in detail online, out of respect for our other halves.

[j]

I can remember my mother warning me against joining in the whinge fests of women about their men. She said that it was destructive, that you learnt to resent things that you wouldnt have minded normally, and that everyone has their own deal so cherry picking from someone else's marriage ignores that fact that your man does his share in his own way.

[holly]

Hi Caitlin. I too sometimes wonder if I am the only one who really doesn't have much to complain about when it comes to my husband. He is a great dad too but when everyone else is telling their "my husband is so bloody rubbish stories" I just pretty much keep my mouth shut. It makes me sad that there are so many bitter and resentful people out there but maybe it is just because the British would really rather complain than brag.

lilysmum

[holly]

Hi Caitlin. I too sometimes wonder if I am the only one who really doesn't have much to complain about when it comes to my husband. He is a great dad too but when everyone else is telling their "my husband is so bloody rubbish stories" I just pretty much keep my mouth shut. It makes me sad that there are so many bitter and resentful people out there but maybe it is just because the British would really rather complain than brag.

lilysmum