How much should you drink around children?

In case you suspected that all the fun stops when you have children, along comes the Portuguese government and removes all doubt.

Eamon and Antoinette McGuckin were taken to hospital and their kids - ages 1 through 6 - were taken into care temporarily after the adult McGuckins apparently passed out in a hotel lobby and bar. The plot thickens as stories report that Antoinette says she only had three beers. Friends and neighbours describe them as devoted homebody parents rather than as, y'know, ginhead chavs.

Even for the most upstanding of us, drinking in front of children poses problems. Seeing my parents drink married cocktails and sophistication in my mind long before Carrie ordered her first Cosmo. I remember my parents throwing parties for university faculty. My mother would wear her ankle-length multi-patterned skirt and turquoise jewelry, my dad would wax his mustache. They'd open the drinks cupboard to pour clear and brown concoctions into crystal tumblers that normally lived in the garage. We three kids could stay up and say hello to guests in our pyjamas. Later we'd sneak into the darkened kitchen after bedtime where we would listen to the clinking and chattering of the adult world.

These days most families I know are more likely to drink at barbecues or lunches were the children play while the grown-ups polish off a bottle of wine or several lagers. A friend recalls a fellow dad who had too much in front of his children. He felt so bad afterward that he's curbed his intake overall.

I've never gotten blotto around the under-18s but my daughter frequently brandishes her plastic stemware and says "This is my wine." Or she'll point to whatever her father is drinking (even if it's in a mug) and say, "That's daddy's beer." But so what? Drinking is part of the adult world. We drink responsibly. We don't drive afterward. And probably the thing that curbs our intake the most is knowing how we'll feel the next morning, when we'll have to play Barbies and football no matter how much our heads are pounding.

A big question is, does drinking around your children promote healthy drinking habits (witness the enduring story of Italian children learning to sip wine from their toddler years) or does it normalise a dangerous drug?

Do you drink around your kids and what is your stopping point?

Comments

[Anon Koholic]

'Getting kids to drink sensibly' - Normalising it, allowing them access to it, and generally making it OK. This is a myth.
If someone is predisposed,for any number of reasons, be it though nervous disorder or psychological problem, to drink, it will be a disaster.
Even worse, a child who could have avoided alcohol dependency could be made worse.
Stop kidding yourselves parents. Alcohol may be 'socially acceptable', but that don't necessarily mean that it should be. Alcoholism comes from somewhere, did you ever stop and think it might be the home?

[Luke]

My parents had a glass of wine or a 330ml bottle of beer with the Sunday dinner. I used to have a drink too with them at Sunday dinner. I think that's one reason why i can drink a lot more responsibly than others.

[Gregory Penn]

If you're raising your kids right, none of this should matter, they should be intelligent enough to realise they don't have to do what you do, and have a degree of self-dependence.

If you drink infront of your kids, and they take up drinking, before legal age, you did your job wrong. It's not that you drank infront of them, it's that somewhere along the line, you messed up.

My father drank infront of me every weekend, nothing big, just a few beers, and sure he always got chatty and laughed at everything. But it never bothered me, he sat up and watched movies with me, and I never started drinking till I hit 16.

I don't know if that's early or not, realistically, I don't care either, and nor should you.

If you've raised your kids right, they'll be able to deal with seeing you a bit tipsy, and unless you have serious problems when you drink (i.e., anger or violence) it should be fine and acceptable to drink infront of your kids.

Society's gone so mad of late, everyone seems to believe our youth are so fragile and corruptable.

Believe me, they're not.

[Madeline]

My parents drink around me and always have done, I have seen my dad fall over in front of me before, and It has made me more cautious about drinking....I can see where it can lead now and dont want to sink to those depths. I have a more responsible attitude than most other 22 yr olds I know!

[JP]

With UKs key TV soaps focussed on the public houses that almost everyone can instantly name, we can't really be surprised at where we are, can we? I like a few beers and drink at home, but people willing to complain about violence on TV influencing people must accept that watching "life as normal" with the pub the centrepiece is not totally benign

[Katherine]

Article seems to imply that having a drink means having too much, then having a hangover. So sad. This is the problem in UK society. I live abroad. Families in Italy enjoy wine (a glass of) or beer in the company of children and teenagers. I can't recall having ever seen any drunken Italians in public. Such a thinkg would be considerred incredibly uncool, let alone laughing about it to your friends or colleagues next day.

[tooyoung]

I grew up on the continent and remember wine and beers being drunk often but don't remember seeing anyone drunk until I moved to the UK at 8 - I was disgusted and embarrassed to see parents friends slurring and falling asleep/passing out at a BBQ. However I soon got over this revulsion and drank pretty heavily from my late teens before recently cutting down hugely since going to grad school. I don't think parents' drinking is ever going to affect children as much as their peers' drinking habits.

[Edana]

Alcohol is something that been around since the beginning of society as we know it - it has always been socially acceptable (in western cultures anyway)

My parents were never drinkers, although both have drank alcohol, as they got older they would get ill from certain drinks and most of the time didnt really feel the need to do it..that was the way they were. I grew up knowing that it was an adults drink, and seeing people enjoying themselves with it, never being out of control. i was allowed to drink in moderation at age 16/17 as everyone else was doing it and my parents thought that if they let me do it (under their roof - and thus their protection) then it was better than me going out with my friends and doing it secretly...that made me very responsible with alcohol - i never saw it as a big deal and therefore never felt the need to abuse it or be stupid with it. I of course as i got older and started clubbing etc. had a few occassions where i got very drunk! but not often. Now, i drink quite often, its a social thing, its what my partner and myself do with our frineds - and we do it infront of our friend's children. NEVER hav any of us got out of control with drink infront of them and never will they think that drink is something mysterious. as they get older they will of course drink, but they will drink responsibly as that is what they are used to seeing. There is nothing wrong with alcohol, or drinking infront of children, there is something wrong with irresponsible, appathetic parents who abuse it and subject their children to that mentality. but thats a completely different thing.

bringing up your children to respect you (the parents) and to respect themselves is important. Educating them that alcohol is nothing special is probably half the battle to curb teenage drinking...but then sometimes no matter what you do, their peers have more influence over their behaviour sometimes....

[Paul Townsend]

I don't drink at home - I can't see the point. I do remember seeing my granny have an advocaat and then a single glass of champagne at her 40th wedding anniversary. We got outside the restaurant and in the space of a car park, I kid you not, she sang Of Danny Boy, cried for her dead mother, leant against a car and then slid down to the floor. A bit an extreme reaction maybe but I was only about 11. The lesson for me was; even a tiny amount of alcohol can make your granny unintentionally flash her knickers. I did not laugh as much as all the adults did as I was horrified to see my lovely granny like that.

[Paul Townsend]

I don't drink at home - I can't see the point. I do remember seeing my granny have an advocaat and then a single glass of champagne at her 40th wedding anniversary. We got outside the restaurant and in the space of a car park, I kid you not, she sang Of Danny Boy, cried for her dead mother, leant against a car and then slid down to the floor. A bit an extreme reaction maybe but I was only about 11. The lesson for me was; even a tiny amount of alcohol can make your granny unintentionally flash her knickers. I did not laugh as much as all the adults did as I was horrified to see my lovely granny like that.

PENIS

[E, Paris]

Haven't read all 109 comments but quite a few seem to question why young people at university drink. Several reasons (& it's dangerous to generalise) but a major one is feeling self-conscious. I had a mate at uni who was the best dancer at clubs...but only after a few drinks. & after you've had a few drinks & the night is young you inevitably have a few more (its hot in clubs & you're thirsty from dancing-amazing how many clubs won't give you tap water) until you can't keep track anymore & thats when you tend to overdo it. I've studied in the UK & in France. I've got falling-over drunk & I've gone clubbing hundreds of times without drinking a single glass. It depends on your mood/where you go/with who...Students in France get just as drunk as students in the UK but the general public don't.

[mumoftwo]

I think what Vanessa and myself are probably getting at is that to understand why young people, or indeed older middle-aged people drink, we have to get into their mindset. I can remember being that age, finding drinking giving you a real physical rush, as do your first experiences of sex. It's not a question of 'getting out of it so you don't remember', more getting into an enhanced experience which was, for me anyway, intense and very liberating (probably the same reason some people like drugs). I didn't sleep around, snogging was much more the in thing, although I didn't feel like I had to wait for 'true love' to have meaningful sex, and having had both, I'm glad I didn't, quite frankly. Now, times change, and I don't think I could get that adrenaline rush in quite the same way if I wanted to (hormones aren't quite what they used to be). Plus I don't drink anyway. So life moves on. I wholeheartedly support J's moves to encourage a variety of activities and experiences amongst students, some with alcohol and some without. Alcohol shouldn't be defining for students, nor a prerequisite for fun or sex. It should never get to the stomach-pumping stage. But not to acknowledge why some 17 year old might find snogging or a few glasses of wine an enjoyable experience...?

[M]

I have avoided posting on this thread, despite finding it very thought-provoking, because I'm quite ambivalent about alcohol at the moment. Not for any terrible reason, but I just remember being expected to partake of it, from having water with wine on holiday and "learning to like it", a snowball on Eurovision night the apex of cool at a friend's house, the drinking culture of university and the feeling of being more confident with a drink in my hand, very English, I guess. I just hadn't really ever considered that there was a genuine choice until now. It's the first lengthy time I've ever spent alone and would never drink without friends. I just feel better and look better the less I drink. I do wonder though, which of my children might be predisposed to drinking a lot - it could be the high achiever, who feels she has to be cool and prove it, or the more social and chaotic one, who is more susceptible to peer pressure. Hopefully neither, but when they tried wine and didn't like it, I didn't push it and now I just have what they're having.

[j]

to be fair, I think Vanessa is saying that staying at home discussing tea is a fairly dull activity compared with going out and having fun- but not specifically that you have to get drunk to have that fun. Though I agree that many girls do, and I and disturbed and mystified by this, which has really escalated since I was 17. Then we got high on giggles mainly.

[Delilah]

Vanessa, the intersting (if uncomfortable) question to ask is why fun for 17-year-olds is so closely associated with drunkenness? If the boy was really fun to snog and shag, why not set out to remember the experience in some detail? Is he actually a lot less shagalicious when considered sober? Perhaps she has picked up that getting inebriated before snogging and shagging will somehow preserve her reputation for discernment (there's a pretty pass)? Or is she so hampered by fears of her own unshaggability or the obvious dangers of what her peers have told her is "fun" that she needs to use drink to blind herself to both?

Cup of tea, anyone?

[mumoftwo]

Jane2, I certainly never had any regrets about drinking and snogging boys in my teens and twenties! Nor sleeping with them for that matter. I never suffered guilt until I was a mother in my thirties, and certainly not over a night of passion with a handsome guy. Those are the memories which are going to see me into old age...

[Jane2]

Vanessa
I don't know how old you are, but you have certainly given me an insight into why the d's do it. (Or did it). That is very valuable.
Only thing is, I don't know a single female who doesn't regret behaviour such as you describe, if not the next day, then some time later.
The regrets range from the physical (blinding headaches, vomiting, foul moods, the social (oh god, I made such a fool of myself) the emotional (I am such a bad person, I am such a worthless person) the pscyhological (I am such a worthless person and this is why my marriage is crap...)
Tea just doesn't have the same negative effects.
I cannot think of a single occasion when I drank tea, where I felt embarrassed afterwards. Well, outside of work situations, obviously. There's so much potential to put your foot in it there, the beverage can't do much to prevent it.

[Vanessa]

Come on people - drinking's fun! God, the idea of being 17 and thinking alcohol is boring but tea is cool? She has the rest of her life to drink tea. Sitting around talking about how dull alcohol is sounds desperately tedious in comparison to getting dressed up, going out, snogging an unsuitable lad and then giggling about it the next day.

[Delilah]

I hear what you say, J, but I don't particularly associate musicians with sobriety. My septegenarian mother sings with a major London choir and it all sounds pretty riotous to me. One High Church I used to attend (in central London) struggled with an organist who played like an archangel but was rarely sober or seemly (thank God for the organ curtain); and the choir were all cut from the same cloth. In fact, the mutual dependecy and tension between the sacred and the profane is one thing that I reallly enjoy about High Churches. And most bands seem to expect regular beer infusions through the night, whether they be rock, bluegrass, or jazz.

Maybe it's different in different music sectors. I haven't actually seen a drunken opera singer or chamber music quintet, but always assumed it was just because I knew so few personally. There were quite a few drunks in the Russian orchestra I used to know members of.

[Lucy]

Clearly this memory is proof of my extreme old age, but wasn't drinking a few glasses of red considered *good* for us once?

[j]

delilah, I agree about occasions where drink is unaccepatble- more or less what I meant with my music/ night classes thing. No way do you turn up to a rehearsal having drunk anything- and as it runs 7-10pm you are not very likely to drink afterwards either.

[j]

this has all been vey interesting.

I do agree with all those who say, at our age (creak creak) we should not be saying, "god I need a drink" or" boy I am going to get so bladdered" or even "I have such a hangover". All of which would be a bit disturbing on a regular basis.

Equally, I dont think of wine as something I should reduce to the absolute bare minimum because that is morally better than having slightly more. I suppose I dont know what I would do if tomorrow the "safe" limits were halved, I suppose I would cravenly do as I am told and halve my intake.

Eluned has a fascinating, almost fatalistic attitude to life. I dont dismiss the value of that, though I think I have the wrong temperament to join her.

[Delilah]

I like Eluned's post because it is true, drink and drugs have had a positive influence on my life ... there were some very good times. But there have also been bad times when the ONLY good times were when I was drunk - for the reasons outlined in my previous post - and from talking to neices and nephews in the UK, this seems to be the driving force behind the culture of drunkenness they have grown up in. As I mentioned below, every time a social or educational occasion becomes little more than a place for at least some people to drink TO EXCESS, the chances of people attending for reasons other than drink becomes smaller.

I think the way to deal with this is to increase the number of places and situations where drunkenness is not acceptable - yes, prohibition. If people know they can't rely on alcohol to make the occasion worth doing, they might find other ways to make the situation attractive. Perhaps severe alcohol limits at sporting fixtures might be a start.

I've just read an article in a back issue of Oprah magazine (January 2007 if anyone's interested) by Amanda Robb, who went for counselling because she was drinking 2-3 glasses of wine a night, and couldn't wait for 6PM when she could start drinking. She couldn't imagine going to Alcoholics Anonymous "what was I going to say? "One morning I woke up [dramatic pause] bloated"." Her friends point out that half of France drinks more than she does. However, being American, she sees a counsellor who encourages to do a cost-benefit analysis of how her drinking was affecting her relationships, job, health, finances. Despite finding that the benefits of alcohol slightly outweighed the costs - because it made her a calmer, if hazier parent - she decided to try to find other ways of getting the benefits she got from alcohol. She discovered that, indeed, she drank out of boredom and to make herself feel more positive about her life, which was unsatisfactory in many respects. For her, positive thinking thereapy (the YOU ARE A STRONG AND RESOURCEFUL WOMAN stuff) getting more childcare (from husband and in-laws), cutting back on bathnights for her six-year-old, using heat-eat meals, and actively doing things which she ENJOYED rather HAD to do, helped a lot. Even so, she ended up stopping alcohol completely, because she still found it led to binge drinking. "I was still in the cold, wretched clutch of something that, if I let it, would drop me someplace very, very bad."

[Jane2]

Lazymummy
Thanks for your illumination of Delilah's use of the word "prohibition". Knowing that she posts from US, I immediately thought of the 1930's illegal distilleries, the Al Capone era. Yes, restriction I would agree with, starting with a return to restricted licensing hours, and a ban on selling the stuff in supermarkets like it was cream cakes.
Off-licenses as we used to call them, what was wrong with them?

As to the problems of young people and excess, I do not know the answer except making it cool to do other things.
Young people have so much so young these days. Maybe they just have to work it out for themselves...
But there will be casualties in that route.
They do have to learn things their own way, and I totally think that it is best they do so, but at the same time one wants to show them the shortcuts.