How much should you drink around children?

In case you suspected that all the fun stops when you have children, along comes the Portuguese government and removes all doubt.

Eamon and Antoinette McGuckin were taken to hospital and their kids - ages 1 through 6 - were taken into care temporarily after the adult McGuckins apparently passed out in a hotel lobby and bar. The plot thickens as stories report that Antoinette says she only had three beers. Friends and neighbours describe them as devoted homebody parents rather than as, y'know, ginhead chavs.

Even for the most upstanding of us, drinking in front of children poses problems. Seeing my parents drink married cocktails and sophistication in my mind long before Carrie ordered her first Cosmo. I remember my parents throwing parties for university faculty. My mother would wear her ankle-length multi-patterned skirt and turquoise jewelry, my dad would wax his mustache. They'd open the drinks cupboard to pour clear and brown concoctions into crystal tumblers that normally lived in the garage. We three kids could stay up and say hello to guests in our pyjamas. Later we'd sneak into the darkened kitchen after bedtime where we would listen to the clinking and chattering of the adult world.

These days most families I know are more likely to drink at barbecues or lunches were the children play while the grown-ups polish off a bottle of wine or several lagers. A friend recalls a fellow dad who had too much in front of his children. He felt so bad afterward that he's curbed his intake overall.

I've never gotten blotto around the under-18s but my daughter frequently brandishes her plastic stemware and says "This is my wine." Or she'll point to whatever her father is drinking (even if it's in a mug) and say, "That's daddy's beer." But so what? Drinking is part of the adult world. We drink responsibly. We don't drive afterward. And probably the thing that curbs our intake the most is knowing how we'll feel the next morning, when we'll have to play Barbies and football no matter how much our heads are pounding.

A big question is, does drinking around your children promote healthy drinking habits (witness the enduring story of Italian children learning to sip wine from their toddler years) or does it normalise a dangerous drug?

Do you drink around your kids and what is your stopping point?

Comments

[Gregory Penn]

If you're raising your kids right, none of this should matter, they should be intelligent enough to realise they don't have to do what you do, and have a degree of self-dependence.

If you drink infront of your kids, and they take up drinking, before legal age, you did your job wrong. It's not that you drank infront of them, it's that somewhere along the line, you messed up.

My father drank infront of me every weekend, nothing big, just a few beers, and sure he always got chatty and laughed at everything. But it never bothered me, he sat up and watched movies with me, and I never started drinking till I hit 16.

I don't know if that's early or not, realistically, I don't care either, and nor should you.

If you've raised your kids right, they'll be able to deal with seeing you a bit tipsy, and unless you have serious problems when you drink (i.e., anger or violence) it should be fine and acceptable to drink infront of your kids.

Society's gone so mad of late, everyone seems to believe our youth are so fragile and corruptable.

Believe me, they're not.

[Madeline]

My parents drink around me and always have done, I have seen my dad fall over in front of me before, and It has made me more cautious about drinking....I can see where it can lead now and dont want to sink to those depths. I have a more responsible attitude than most other 22 yr olds I know!

[JP]

With UKs key TV soaps focussed on the public houses that almost everyone can instantly name, we can't really be surprised at where we are, can we? I like a few beers and drink at home, but people willing to complain about violence on TV influencing people must accept that watching "life as normal" with the pub the centrepiece is not totally benign

[Katherine]

Article seems to imply that having a drink means having too much, then having a hangover. So sad. This is the problem in UK society. I live abroad. Families in Italy enjoy wine (a glass of) or beer in the company of children and teenagers. I can't recall having ever seen any drunken Italians in public. Such a thinkg would be considerred incredibly uncool, let alone laughing about it to your friends or colleagues next day.

[tooyoung]

I grew up on the continent and remember wine and beers being drunk often but don't remember seeing anyone drunk until I moved to the UK at 8 - I was disgusted and embarrassed to see parents friends slurring and falling asleep/passing out at a BBQ. However I soon got over this revulsion and drank pretty heavily from my late teens before recently cutting down hugely since going to grad school. I don't think parents' drinking is ever going to affect children as much as their peers' drinking habits.

[Edana]

Alcohol is something that been around since the beginning of society as we know it - it has always been socially acceptable (in western cultures anyway)

My parents were never drinkers, although both have drank alcohol, as they got older they would get ill from certain drinks and most of the time didnt really feel the need to do it..that was the way they were. I grew up knowing that it was an adults drink, and seeing people enjoying themselves with it, never being out of control. i was allowed to drink in moderation at age 16/17 as everyone else was doing it and my parents thought that if they let me do it (under their roof - and thus their protection) then it was better than me going out with my friends and doing it secretly...that made me very responsible with alcohol - i never saw it as a big deal and therefore never felt the need to abuse it or be stupid with it. I of course as i got older and started clubbing etc. had a few occassions where i got very drunk! but not often. Now, i drink quite often, its a social thing, its what my partner and myself do with our frineds - and we do it infront of our friend's children. NEVER hav any of us got out of control with drink infront of them and never will they think that drink is something mysterious. as they get older they will of course drink, but they will drink responsibly as that is what they are used to seeing. There is nothing wrong with alcohol, or drinking infront of children, there is something wrong with irresponsible, appathetic parents who abuse it and subject their children to that mentality. but thats a completely different thing.

bringing up your children to respect you (the parents) and to respect themselves is important. Educating them that alcohol is nothing special is probably half the battle to curb teenage drinking...but then sometimes no matter what you do, their peers have more influence over their behaviour sometimes....

[Paul Townsend]

I don't drink at home - I can't see the point. I do remember seeing my granny have an advocaat and then a single glass of champagne at her 40th wedding anniversary. We got outside the restaurant and in the space of a car park, I kid you not, she sang Of Danny Boy, cried for her dead mother, leant against a car and then slid down to the floor. A bit an extreme reaction maybe but I was only about 11. The lesson for me was; even a tiny amount of alcohol can make your granny unintentionally flash her knickers. I did not laugh as much as all the adults did as I was horrified to see my lovely granny like that.

[Paul Townsend]

I don't drink at home - I can't see the point. I do remember seeing my granny have an advocaat and then a single glass of champagne at her 40th wedding anniversary. We got outside the restaurant and in the space of a car park, I kid you not, she sang Of Danny Boy, cried for her dead mother, leant against a car and then slid down to the floor. A bit an extreme reaction maybe but I was only about 11. The lesson for me was; even a tiny amount of alcohol can make your granny unintentionally flash her knickers. I did not laugh as much as all the adults did as I was horrified to see my lovely granny like that.

PENIS

[E, Paris]

Haven't read all 109 comments but quite a few seem to question why young people at university drink. Several reasons (& it's dangerous to generalise) but a major one is feeling self-conscious. I had a mate at uni who was the best dancer at clubs...but only after a few drinks. & after you've had a few drinks & the night is young you inevitably have a few more (its hot in clubs & you're thirsty from dancing-amazing how many clubs won't give you tap water) until you can't keep track anymore & thats when you tend to overdo it. I've studied in the UK & in France. I've got falling-over drunk & I've gone clubbing hundreds of times without drinking a single glass. It depends on your mood/where you go/with who...Students in France get just as drunk as students in the UK but the general public don't.

[mumoftwo]

I think what Vanessa and myself are probably getting at is that to understand why young people, or indeed older middle-aged people drink, we have to get into their mindset. I can remember being that age, finding drinking giving you a real physical rush, as do your first experiences of sex. It's not a question of 'getting out of it so you don't remember', more getting into an enhanced experience which was, for me anyway, intense and very liberating (probably the same reason some people like drugs). I didn't sleep around, snogging was much more the in thing, although I didn't feel like I had to wait for 'true love' to have meaningful sex, and having had both, I'm glad I didn't, quite frankly. Now, times change, and I don't think I could get that adrenaline rush in quite the same way if I wanted to (hormones aren't quite what they used to be). Plus I don't drink anyway. So life moves on. I wholeheartedly support J's moves to encourage a variety of activities and experiences amongst students, some with alcohol and some without. Alcohol shouldn't be defining for students, nor a prerequisite for fun or sex. It should never get to the stomach-pumping stage. But not to acknowledge why some 17 year old might find snogging or a few glasses of wine an enjoyable experience...?

[M]

I have avoided posting on this thread, despite finding it very thought-provoking, because I'm quite ambivalent about alcohol at the moment. Not for any terrible reason, but I just remember being expected to partake of it, from having water with wine on holiday and "learning to like it", a snowball on Eurovision night the apex of cool at a friend's house, the drinking culture of university and the feeling of being more confident with a drink in my hand, very English, I guess. I just hadn't really ever considered that there was a genuine choice until now. It's the first lengthy time I've ever spent alone and would never drink without friends. I just feel better and look better the less I drink. I do wonder though, which of my children might be predisposed to drinking a lot - it could be the high achiever, who feels she has to be cool and prove it, or the more social and chaotic one, who is more susceptible to peer pressure. Hopefully neither, but when they tried wine and didn't like it, I didn't push it and now I just have what they're having.

[j]

to be fair, I think Vanessa is saying that staying at home discussing tea is a fairly dull activity compared with going out and having fun- but not specifically that you have to get drunk to have that fun. Though I agree that many girls do, and I and disturbed and mystified by this, which has really escalated since I was 17. Then we got high on giggles mainly.

[Delilah]

Vanessa, the intersting (if uncomfortable) question to ask is why fun for 17-year-olds is so closely associated with drunkenness? If the boy was really fun to snog and shag, why not set out to remember the experience in some detail? Is he actually a lot less shagalicious when considered sober? Perhaps she has picked up that getting inebriated before snogging and shagging will somehow preserve her reputation for discernment (there's a pretty pass)? Or is she so hampered by fears of her own unshaggability or the obvious dangers of what her peers have told her is "fun" that she needs to use drink to blind herself to both?

Cup of tea, anyone?

[mumoftwo]

Jane2, I certainly never had any regrets about drinking and snogging boys in my teens and twenties! Nor sleeping with them for that matter. I never suffered guilt until I was a mother in my thirties, and certainly not over a night of passion with a handsome guy. Those are the memories which are going to see me into old age...

[Jane2]

Vanessa
I don't know how old you are, but you have certainly given me an insight into why the d's do it. (Or did it). That is very valuable.
Only thing is, I don't know a single female who doesn't regret behaviour such as you describe, if not the next day, then some time later.
The regrets range from the physical (blinding headaches, vomiting, foul moods, the social (oh god, I made such a fool of myself) the emotional (I am such a bad person, I am such a worthless person) the pscyhological (I am such a worthless person and this is why my marriage is crap...)
Tea just doesn't have the same negative effects.
I cannot think of a single occasion when I drank tea, where I felt embarrassed afterwards. Well, outside of work situations, obviously. There's so much potential to put your foot in it there, the beverage can't do much to prevent it.

[Vanessa]

Come on people - drinking's fun! God, the idea of being 17 and thinking alcohol is boring but tea is cool? She has the rest of her life to drink tea. Sitting around talking about how dull alcohol is sounds desperately tedious in comparison to getting dressed up, going out, snogging an unsuitable lad and then giggling about it the next day.

[Delilah]

I hear what you say, J, but I don't particularly associate musicians with sobriety. My septegenarian mother sings with a major London choir and it all sounds pretty riotous to me. One High Church I used to attend (in central London) struggled with an organist who played like an archangel but was rarely sober or seemly (thank God for the organ curtain); and the choir were all cut from the same cloth. In fact, the mutual dependecy and tension between the sacred and the profane is one thing that I reallly enjoy about High Churches. And most bands seem to expect regular beer infusions through the night, whether they be rock, bluegrass, or jazz.

Maybe it's different in different music sectors. I haven't actually seen a drunken opera singer or chamber music quintet, but always assumed it was just because I knew so few personally. There were quite a few drunks in the Russian orchestra I used to know members of.

[Lucy]

Clearly this memory is proof of my extreme old age, but wasn't drinking a few glasses of red considered *good* for us once?

[j]

delilah, I agree about occasions where drink is unaccepatble- more or less what I meant with my music/ night classes thing. No way do you turn up to a rehearsal having drunk anything- and as it runs 7-10pm you are not very likely to drink afterwards either.

[j]

this has all been vey interesting.

I do agree with all those who say, at our age (creak creak) we should not be saying, "god I need a drink" or" boy I am going to get so bladdered" or even "I have such a hangover". All of which would be a bit disturbing on a regular basis.

Equally, I dont think of wine as something I should reduce to the absolute bare minimum because that is morally better than having slightly more. I suppose I dont know what I would do if tomorrow the "safe" limits were halved, I suppose I would cravenly do as I am told and halve my intake.

Eluned has a fascinating, almost fatalistic attitude to life. I dont dismiss the value of that, though I think I have the wrong temperament to join her.

[Delilah]

I like Eluned's post because it is true, drink and drugs have had a positive influence on my life ... there were some very good times. But there have also been bad times when the ONLY good times were when I was drunk - for the reasons outlined in my previous post - and from talking to neices and nephews in the UK, this seems to be the driving force behind the culture of drunkenness they have grown up in. As I mentioned below, every time a social or educational occasion becomes little more than a place for at least some people to drink TO EXCESS, the chances of people attending for reasons other than drink becomes smaller.

I think the way to deal with this is to increase the number of places and situations where drunkenness is not acceptable - yes, prohibition. If people know they can't rely on alcohol to make the occasion worth doing, they might find other ways to make the situation attractive. Perhaps severe alcohol limits at sporting fixtures might be a start.

I've just read an article in a back issue of Oprah magazine (January 2007 if anyone's interested) by Amanda Robb, who went for counselling because she was drinking 2-3 glasses of wine a night, and couldn't wait for 6PM when she could start drinking. She couldn't imagine going to Alcoholics Anonymous "what was I going to say? "One morning I woke up [dramatic pause] bloated"." Her friends point out that half of France drinks more than she does. However, being American, she sees a counsellor who encourages to do a cost-benefit analysis of how her drinking was affecting her relationships, job, health, finances. Despite finding that the benefits of alcohol slightly outweighed the costs - because it made her a calmer, if hazier parent - she decided to try to find other ways of getting the benefits she got from alcohol. She discovered that, indeed, she drank out of boredom and to make herself feel more positive about her life, which was unsatisfactory in many respects. For her, positive thinking thereapy (the YOU ARE A STRONG AND RESOURCEFUL WOMAN stuff) getting more childcare (from husband and in-laws), cutting back on bathnights for her six-year-old, using heat-eat meals, and actively doing things which she ENJOYED rather HAD to do, helped a lot. Even so, she ended up stopping alcohol completely, because she still found it led to binge drinking. "I was still in the cold, wretched clutch of something that, if I let it, would drop me someplace very, very bad."

[Jane2]

Lazymummy
Thanks for your illumination of Delilah's use of the word "prohibition". Knowing that she posts from US, I immediately thought of the 1930's illegal distilleries, the Al Capone era. Yes, restriction I would agree with, starting with a return to restricted licensing hours, and a ban on selling the stuff in supermarkets like it was cream cakes.
Off-licenses as we used to call them, what was wrong with them?

As to the problems of young people and excess, I do not know the answer except making it cool to do other things.
Young people have so much so young these days. Maybe they just have to work it out for themselves...
But there will be casualties in that route.
They do have to learn things their own way, and I totally think that it is best they do so, but at the same time one wants to show them the shortcuts.

[kieransmum]

"I'm just pretty certain that I know what experiences would benefit them and what would ruin them"

Can anyone really say that Eluned?
I know of people who would argue the opposite.

[Eluned]

I don't know, J. I'm not sure it's about risk exactly. More that I want my children to experience bad things because bad things and good things in the long run? I like who I am and it was drink and drugs, amongst other unsavoury things, that made me who I am. Not that I really *want* them to do LSD and ecstacy like me and my husband did but *if* they did I wouldn't be that upset because it was an invaluable experience for me that I wouldn't wish away. But having said that if I ever find out my children are sleeping around when they're older I would be devastated because that's something I'm really glad I never did. Is that hypocracy or what? It does sound like I want them to live my life again but it's not that, honestly, I'm just pretty certain that I know what experiences would benefit them and what would ruin them. Like I know Bryn would benefit from living alone and finding his own feet, being independent etc but Llion wouldn't. Llion would go to pieces and wouldn't even learn anything from it. He needs women in his life. I'm sidetracking - basically I'm not going to encourage them to binge drink and take drugs but I wouldn't be disappointed if they did.

[kieransmum]

I think LM's post is spot on. I personally hardly drink at all right now, still breastfeeding one and even between babies just wasn't that fussed. I'm enjoying the not-drinking phase of my life. Wouldn't want it to last forever, though. My husband drinks "an average of 6-7 500ml servings of beer a week" (his words, I just asked him).
It seems to me that there are two distinct issues:
how much you personally drink, which is a health issue, and how you behave in front of your kids and in public when drunk, a public sobriety issue. (Just stopped to go and pick up baby, now will see if I can keep my line of thought straight). Oh yes, this is what I was thinking: the one is kind of dependent on the other, you model responsible behaviur to your kids by drinking safely, BUT teenagers as a group tend to be addicted to excess, so it is a question of how strong your influence is versus peer pressure.
Interestingly, my husband was a teetotaller when he met me and never drank as a 'youth'- I never really drank to excess. Perhaps we are atypical. But I was certainly aware of a massive binge-drinking culture around me.
I got a bit annoyed recently when I invited a group of friends around to my house (we know each other through the local section of Mumsnet) and some of them started saying online how much they were going to drink, fall over on the floor etc. I didn't think it was appropriate to behave like teenagers. In the event, my worries were unfounded as we all had a lovely relaxed civilised evening so it was an interesting comment on how much bravado is involved for young people including mums saying "yes we're going to get really drunk" even when you don't intend to.
Gosh I sound middle-aged!

[BILL]

Know one says Dont Drink its being
resposable . See Webb . FASAWAREUK

[Lazy Mummy]

I want to comment on Jane2's response to Delilah's comment about the British not getting a better handle on alcohol & drinking without some form of prohibition.

I actually agree with Delilah here. I don't think - from what she said - that she's meaning total, 100% prohibition as in what the US did in the 1920s & '30s. I think she's talking about more restrictions on alcohol - changing the age limit perhaps, making it available from fewer sources (curtailing pub hours). Historical data (again, Marcus Linklater covered this in his article earlier this week) shows that drink problems in the UK have decreased when greater restrictions were imposed and that they've increased at times when alcohol has been less restricted.

Perhaps this correlation is not there in France or Italy or Spain - or even the US. But it does seem to be there in the UK. And that's why I agree with Delilah that some forms of restriction (I'll use that word rather than "prohibition") would probably help change attitudes towards drink & the norms around it (it was me that first mentioned norms on this thread, I think). Of course, as I mentioned earlier, I had a strong Methodist upbringing, so am comfortable around people who limit or curtail drink (and gambling). I've also lived in the US for a long time where people are, generally, more restrained in their alcohol consumption, though, as I also mentioned, I did my fair share of drinking sessions as a student.

I have to admit that I thought J's 2 glasses 5 nights a week was on the heavy side, but I'm coming from the US perspective where we probably drink 1-2 glasses 2 nights a week (3 max). But when I stop to think about my brothers & friends in Britain, I realise J's limit is moderate for that culture.

J's comment about night classes was an interesting one. I agree. It's all about providing more interesting forms of entertainment. And when we think back to the age of the temperance movements, the early part of the last century, there were vast clubs, societies, etc. for all sorts of things, all over the country (including in what would probably be thought of as sink estate areas now). People of all classes participated in things because education was seen as something valuable a) in its own right and b) as a way forward. We've lost some of that now, and it's a sad thing. We'd be a happier & more productive society if some of it were brought back, somehow.

I do think there's more of that type of thing in the US than the UK (more of a culture of self-improvement - with Americans being the eternal optimists / re-inventers). (Also, the coffee shops & tea shops are open much later here and people often go out for dessert instead of for a drink. OK, that can lead to other problems, but at least there are choices).

[j]

eluned what your post shows is that we all have a different attitude to risk. I know we promised not to nag about giving up the fags (alltogether now..Eluned, give up the fags..;)) but it's similar in a way. You are comfortable with a different level of risk from me, which probably means you will be a very successful small businesswoman when your kids are bigger and I will plod along as I am.

[j]

delilah what you describe is very interesteing and not a culture I have ever been a part of. It sounds very boring just to "go out" and I have often wondered what people did when they got there. now I know. They dont do a lot!

Bring back to good old evening class when you could do rubbish pottery or learn to dance. My mother was always going off to those all her 30s and 40s and now I see why- there was something to do when you got there.

[j]

Katherine, I was grateful to Lucy because your comment of "excessive and rather silly" was pretty aggressive.

Apart from that, no, I think not drinking is a perfectly valid choice to make. As the rest of my posts show, I drank very little while I was more able to play music, and my mother barely drinks as she is too busy playing bridge.

[Eluned]

Up until last October I'd been continuously pregnant/breastfeeding for the best part of two decades so I hadnt drunk at all. But I'm back on beer again and all is well in the world :] We drink in front of the children most days, he more than I, and to be honest I've never thought about it affecting them; it's just grown up drink to the little ones and the older ones arent that keen anyway. Although Llion did have a couple of bottles of Becks with me the other day and they seemed to go down well. But I'd rather he drank that than the alchopop crap his friends like. I got very drunk at Christmas and they found it hilarious and I got no sympathy the following day! I'm open with them about drink and drugs and all the stupid things I did with them when I was at school/university and I know Bryn has smoked marijuana but.. I don't know really, it's just something I ignore, probably terribly irresponsible of me but I think they'll be alright.

[Lucy]

Katherine, as I see it to evaluate behaviour, eg. to label it as 'silly and excessive', is to make a judgement. There’s nothing wrong with evaluating other people’s behaviour, but what yardstick we use says a lot about us. You describe someone whose early response to alcohol was interest. To get drunk on cheap cider at age 14 is hardly a healthy normal form of experimentation, even if you may have seen other children doing the same. At 14, *any* drinking is excessive - the body is still developing. Your example of smoking is probably different in kind. My dad hated his parents smoking and couldn't stand the smell as a child: he never smoked in his life, and lots of people of that generation had the same experience. The difference being that he never started to smoke; he didn’t smoke because he never indulged, not because he experimented at an early age and then adopted an anti-smoking attitude.

If someone has had a previous tendency to relate inappropriately to alcohol (or food, or whatever), it's important for them to gain a balanced view. If someone remarked that J's drinking seemed 'quite a lot to me', or 'far more than I'd care to drink', that would seem to me a reasonably healthy attitude: we are all different and some might not care for a glass of wine several nights a week. But 'excessive and silly'? That looks like an out-of-proportion response to me. Exceeding what, exactly? Not governmental limits, for a start. And ‘silly’? That implies some kind of childishness or laughable behaviour that I just don’t see in evidence here. I’d guess that someone who drinks a few carefully considered glasses a week is doing it because they like the taste, which isn’t a childish motive.

So, I'd worry that this out-of-proportion response came out of a desire to by hypercorrect, or hypercautious, with alcohol. That might be fine and healthy, or it might be a sign that someone was still struggling to have a balanced attitude towards alcohol. Maybe something about being 14 and drinking cheap cider was frightening, or unappealing, and they’re still upset or disgusted by it. Maybe they know they have to adopt a ‘no-tolerance’ attitude in order not to be tempted, or maybe the smell still makes them feel ill after that time they had far too much. Or maybe there’s nothing wrong at all.

My worry is that I would like to see a culture where teenagers didn’t feel the need to hang around bus stops drinking cheap cider (with fairly horrible additives – yuk!), but where a grown woman could reasonably expect to enjoy wine just as she enjoys, say, coffee or chocolate or anything else that tastes good. And a tea-drinking club would make me so happy!

[Katherine]

Lucy, I'm not quite sure where your comment "A desire to judge other people for their behaviour" comes from...we all have opinions and we're all here to discuss them - or so I imagined when I found this blog. Commenting is not judging - it is simply noting.
In fact, it is you that would appear to be judging rather than simply commenting, suggesting that differing views from your own are a "smokescreen" for alcoholism or eating disorders, which is certainly interesting! Do you think that children who choose not to smoke as their parents' generation did are hiding a desire to puff away on untipped Gauloises? Or might it be that they have watched their parents suffer the consequences of indulging in legal but ultimately dangerous practices and choose not to follow their path?
Like many people, though not many on this blog, it would appear, I like a drink in the same way I like lemon meringue or going to the opera - not something you'd want to do every day, but enjoyable on an occasional basis.
I'm not sure where you got "excessive drink-experimentation" from either, but I think if you look in any park or bus-stop during evening-time you'll find teenagers drinking. And although this is not the ideal, it happens - children experiment. Sometimes they realise alcohol's not all that special, sometimes they go on to produce the kind of distress that Annamac's suffered. I've been lucky with my children so far - although who knows what will happen in the future in this alcohol-obsessed culture?
And J, I wasn't aware that you needed "support" - far from attacking you, I supported your efforts to help your son learn, and simply commented that your own drinking habits, while clearly seeming moderate to you, may not seem so to others. Clearly my own seem excessively "abstentious" to others - but I'm hoping I'm not being attacked by other commenters for not craving alcohol...or perhaps I am?

[Jane2]

Delilah, I agree with everything you've said about social inhibitions, British cruelty to people who are different, and particularly everything you've said about boredom. D.1, since she gave up at last, has commented time and again on how boring it is to be the only sober person, and how boring these long evenings are when the only thing people have in common is drinking.
I don't agree about prohibition: I truly believe that it would increase the cachet of drinking among the young. I truly believe that for average young people (not people who are already alcoholics or on the way to being) a process of "denormalisation" is the only way forward. Others have posted encouragingly on this trend in certain areas. Making it cooler to do other things etc. I also think drink should be a lot more expensive.
For hardened drinkers and alcoholics, I think any solution is only as good as their will to overcome the addiction. Annamac has summed up courageously and incisively the problems with expecting or hoping for that. One other thing I disagree about, is that you can learn anything worthwhile from TV!!! In most cases no!

[Delilah]

What I've found is that however moderate and sensible drinking is at home, teenagers in Britain find a completely different culture at college and, depressingly, at work afterwards. The higher-flying they are, which means in some ways the busier/more sociable they are, the more likely they are to find themselves among peers who find common ground only through drink, and are more likely to reject and belittle a person who spends their spare time sober than one who spends it getting horribly drunk and out-of-control.

Although I don't entirely agree with expat's comment below, I do think a lot of British drunkeness comes from isolation and boredom. As does a lot of Japanese drunkenness, by the way. British culture can be very cruel; people are laughed at for being different, for "trying too hard", for making mistakes, or expressing the "wrong" sort of opinion. Which limits what you can do or say, which is very boring. Boring people and situations can actually seem quite interesting when you're drunk. Boring people drink to make themselves feel more interesting. But the reality is that drunks are boring to anyone who isn't drunk, so being the only sober person in a room can drive you to drink. Drinking to drunkenness passes the time and prevents boredom when you are prevented from doing anything else by social cruelty, or lack of money or opportunity. Drink is such an easy option; like TV it's a relatively cheap, universally acceptable way to pass the time, requires no skill; but unlike TV it teaches you nothing, develops no skills, and in fact stunts intelligence and initiative and wipes out whole memories. I've been in glorious drinking groups in University pubs where we thought we were being awfully smart but in fact the conversation had dropped to Common Entrance level. I've also been a part of groups of British "friends" who really had absolutely nothing in common except the fact that they were prepared to encourage each other to get blotto every week.

The comments about husbands and friends who won't turn up to alcohol-free events because "they can't have fun without alcohol" sums it up. It's one reason why I think legalising drugs in Britain would be a total disaster.

I'm not optimistic about British culture getting off alcohol without some form of prohibition; but perhaps encouraging a culture that applaudes doing things rather than sitting at a bar might help. In terms of helping our children, I actually don't think there's much we can do short of locking them up. Teenagers seem addicted to excess - American undergraduates, who aren't legally allowed to drink until 21, have bring-a-tub-of-ice-cream parties and binge until they feel sick.

[j]

Lucy, thanks for your support!

and two things since yesterday-

(a)

one story that bears out what has been said about the UK/Us attitude. Last night I was at a formal dinner for a US Faculty group visiting their UK peers, and it was hosted at the UK University.

Unusually, after they served one round of white wine, they left the bottles on the table, so I could see they had about 6. When they came back with the red, the hostess panicked.

There's far too much wine, she said. And she was right. They had provided overall 12 bottles for 40 people- about the 1/3 bottle I have always been told is the going rate for catering a dinner. And it was about 50% too much. I am guessing it was to do with the high proportion of US guests there.

(b)
I didnt drink much till I got married at 30, cos I was out every night doing music. Then I was permanently pregnant or breastfeeding for 6 years. SO I have only had about 10 years when I have had the option to drink every night. As I've posted elsewhere, I think the hardest time is when people dont have the option to go out and do a dance class or whatever. So I am wondering, if it is a worry, that younger people are starting maybe ten years younger than I did?

[Lucy]

Katherine, it might be worth considering the possibility that if someone has gone from excessive drink-experimentation at 14 (gosh, I'm staid ... that surprised me), to a later attitude that labels drinking within the government's recommended limitations and in a way that is clearly accompanied by a responsible attitude, as 'excessive and silly', maybe there is still some kind of uncertain or paranoid attitude towards alcohol? A desire to judge other people for their behaviour is a symptom of a personal problem that's well-recognised in relation to eating disorders, but which comes into play with alcholism as well. It may in some cases be the smokescreen of someone who really wants to pretend, maybe to themselves, that they are 'ok'.

Annamac - I want to join the others in saying thanks. You've really helped me to think about the dangers, and I think it's incredibly important/ courageous of you to give us the example.

[Rachel]

I don't think tea drinking has ever 'gone away'. Certainly as a child I drank tea from a very early age and thus have no addiction to soft or fizzy drinks. It is only since being in my mid twenties that I have started drinking orange squash and I only drink fizzy drinks as a mixer with a spririt. I am also very happy to order tea in a bar - the main obstacle is that most stop serving hot drinks after a certain time or do not have the facilities to make them.

At university I found that some clubs were alcohol orientated but it was perfectly possible to join in without drinking alcohol. Usually I did (and do) drink alcohol but I was (and am) perfectly happy to not drink alcohol as well.

I am glad that people are educating their chidren about alcohol but I think all children experiment at some point, whether they are 12 or 19.

[Jane2]

And thanks for the updates on tea!! It's very exciting to see tea making a comeback. I actually asked my GP if drinking too much tea could be bad for you, but she just mumbled something unspecific.

[Jane2]

J..Ref hobbies;
Yes, that's a very good way indeed of keeping the parents off alcohol. Having to get up at 7.00am or 8.00am on Saturday and Sunday mornings to drive for miles to childrens' sports fixtures certainly concentrates the mind. (Even without having any alcohol the night before, I often used to sit in the car and fall asleep for an hour as soon as I arrived at the fixture, thus missing the first match). Then I'd eat my sandwiches, drink my flask of tea, and natter all afternoon with the other mums, again, a bit like Alphamummy.
The sports kids themselves soon learn they can't play well after a late night, even without alcohol.

[Katherine]

J, I think you missed my point. My daughter's friends had a brief experimentation with cheap cider at 14, like many girls their age, and decided alcohol was not cool. And while you think your level of drinking is acceptable, they would think it's excessive and rather silly, which is interesting!
I also have two children in their mid-twenties and a son of 16 who would never dream/have dreamt of getting drunk at that age - children are all different, just as adults are. And I think this thread has shown quite how different we all are in our attitudes to drink!
Boys are markedly slower to have their alcohol-discovery time, so I imagine you'll miss out on your son's silly drunkeness since he'll be at uni. Children all experiment at one age or another. So well done for teaching him about drink and more importantly first aid - it is astonishing how few people know how to help themselves or others while partaking of a dangerous drug.
Most importantly, I would say ensure that you are open with your children at all times so that they know you are there in a crisis - our house has on occasion been used a safe house for accquaintances of my children who are too scared to go home to their own parents because they have drunk too much. I am glad that my children know that care and first aid is always available here, and it sounds as though your son will feel the same.
And like Supermother, I'm confident that my children have a healthier attitude to life in general and are more equipped to make decisions than those that can't be open with their parents.
Jane2, yes, London, Manchester and Cardiff - it's more acceptable now, I think, than 25-30 years ago when I was a teenager, to not drink alcohol at all, or just to drink on occasion. I think you're right about children rejecting their parents' behaviour!

[Annamac]

j, I don't laugh at all at you measuring out your wine: I'm the same! I only ever use a 125ml glass, have 1 or max. 2 and never, ever accept random topups. My mother has been on medication for high blood pressure since her late 40s , and as I'm now in my mid-40s, I'm keeping an eye on my own bp.
As for hobbies, it is true that it is more of a challenge to fit them around family commitments, but if we want to demonstrate to our children how to use their spare time wisely, it is up to us to make the effort. When my first child was very young and I couldn't go out at all (unless I hired a babysitter for both my then-husband and my daughter), I used to knit in the evening - not very well, but I have quite a lot of er, "interesting" scarves and it was strangely relaxing.

[mmmm]

A friend of mine up north goes to club night called The Whim Wham Club where all the music is from the 20's to the 50's. It sounds like the perfect thing to reduce dependence on alchohol for having a good time: There is a mixture of ages, and levels of dedication to the theme, ie some people are in proper vintage dress, others just in what they normally wear, some know all the steps to the Charleston, the Lindy Hop etc and some just join in with their own approximation, without anybody being snobby about it. There is also a good mix of ages. Tea and coffee served at the bar Of course it would be possible (and enoyable, I have to say) to go to this night and have a good few drinks, but equally possible not to since the focus is on so many other things. And it sounds like so much fun! I've been trying to find an equivalent night out in London, being in my late 30's an awful lot of clubs are foreign country to me these days. If anybody knows any please tell me....

My father talks a lot about how my generation has really lost out with the demise of formal dancing and I do wonder if that lack of focus has led to more drinking. Certainly friends who go to reeling balls get the equivalent of an aerobics class and are far too thirsty to drink anything other than water.

[Lisa]

Jane2
It stopped a couple of months ago, but there was a craze in London for Tea Dances. Once a month there was an event called "Viva Cake", which would start off in the afternoon with tea and cake, crafty things and a cake baking competition, then later dancing classes and then the rest of the night there would be dancing and a bar. It was tons of fun. You were ahead of your time :)

[j]

on the hobby point, i wonder if new mothers are actually more vulnerable to drink because they cant go out so often? in my pre-mummy days I was out singing or playing four or five nights a week, so I was a very modest drinker. The more music I do, the less I drink. You tend to end up down the pub after a concert, but given how dire their wine is, it's no sacrifice to drink water.

Maybe a good technique for us and for our kids is simply to have better things to do with our time?

[j]

annamac you may laugh but partly as I need to watch an inherited blood pressure problem, I measure out my 2 units in a measuring jug, and when it's gone, it's gone. I tell myself I am cool and stylish and it is a continental-type petit pichet but actually it aint, it's a pyrex jug :(

[Annamac]

Belated thanks to j and Gipsy for their responses to my first post on this thread. I have just this week finished sorting through a large box of my ex-husband's paperwork, which recently reappeared from storage (the executor of his will had forgotten about them). The papers included various medical reports and documents from his employer - all pretty much detailing his swift and highly unpleasant downfall due to drink. Alcoholic liver disease is always just around the corner for the heavy drinker. To those who drink wine every night: check the size of your wine glasses. Boringly banal, but important. If you feel you "need" a drink every night after work - get a new job. Or a new, stress-relieving hobby. Be kind to your liver, because by the time it starts to really indicate that it can't cope with how much alcohol you're drinking, you're already in deep trouble.

[Jane2]

Thanks to those who've given me some answers on clubs. Katherine, are the clubs you refer to in London? And how wonderful to hear of students who think tea is cool. I've never heard of it being on offer in a club, but so great that it's considered cool anywhere.
Years ago, when I was a student, I used to host tea-parties where people came in the afternoon to drink tea, eat home-made cake and talk about books. (Bit like Alpha-Mummy but all in one place).
After I met later-to-be-hub, I stopped because he complained that he couldn't enjoy a party where there was no alcohol.
About a year ago he admitted that his then best friend, (who was never invited to the tea-parties because he was big on beer) had felt upset because the parties sounded "cool". Lesson I learned about 30 years too late: do what you want not what you think will impress others.
Lucy, thanks for your reply (on the other blog) about feminism, do keep on reporting from the ranks of youth on what it feels like to be dealing with all this at 23. (Daughters don't divulge much).
Baggofones, those mothers sound like overgrown 14-year-olds. Maybe there will be a teenage rebellion, and their OWN children will reject this behaviour!

[j]

Katherine I think it is interesting that you, the virtual abstainer, have a 14 year old who used to get drunk on cheap cider, whereas I, the (IMHO) sensible drinker have a 16 year old who wouldnt dream of doing that.

I think 2 nights off plus 2 units on the other 5 nights counts as moderate in most people's assessment and I am hoping that making alcohol management a normal part of life like chocolate management will be a good strategy. So far it's working! (but we can never be sure..)

[Andrew Milner]

"I drink excessively to forget."
"Forget what?"
I dunno. I've forgotten."

[Expat Mum]

There's nothing wrong with drinking in front of your kids as long as you're showing them how to drink responsibly. This isn't the same as getting blotto or going out and binge-drinking at all.
As we've heard, many kids will get into the drinking scene without parental influence, but staying sober in front of them can't harm. Probably the worst thing you can do however, is let them hear you say "God I need a drink!" whenever something bad or stressful happens. That's not a good lesson.

[Katherine]

This thread has really opened my eyes to what other people see as drinking moderately...two booze-free nights a week, a glass or two with dinner, a gin and tonic most days after the children are in bed - it's really quite astonishing.
I like wine and whisky and keep a good stock of both in the house, along with champagne always in the fridge, but I rarely have more than a small glass per week! I've never had a hangover, even on the odd occasion that I've drunk a whole bottle, so that's no deterrent.
As I'm in the music business, I also go to these clubs about which you seem curious once in a while - it's generally chavs and ladies of a certain age doing the binge-drinking there. I've spent all evening drinking nothing but tea on many occasions - one of which when I bumped into my young cousin and her uni friends, who were also clubbing on tea. Of course they drink on other occasions, but sobriety - and tea - is cool amongst art students, at least.
My daughter and her friends are also past thinking drunkeness is cool - at the age of 17. What's adult is to drink tea, prefereably green, while lamenting the antics of 14 year olds doinng just what they did when they were 14 - getting drunk and stupid on cheap cider.

[Baggofbones]

Lazy Mummy - yes, I'm sure you're right that it's what has become normalised. I have overheard various depressing (to my mind) conversations between the mothers in my son's school playground. These mothers are pretty much all in their 30s/40s, mostly well educated and with good jobs - and yet the conversations are remarkably similar to those of our local student population: "Oh God, I was so drunk last night ... I've got such a hangover now ... blah, blah, blah". Whatever they may say to their children about the evils of alcohol/binge-drinking, their children will learn from their behaviour that this kind of relationship to alcohol is "normal", and that their role-model adults drink to get drunk. So maybe some parents need to modify their behaviour if we're to stand any chance of forming a new kind of "normality"?

[Lazy Mummy]

Did anyone else read the interesting comments by Marcus Linklater about British drinking culture in yesterday's Times? He was talking about temperance movements & how restrictions actually are/were the way that drinking problems were solved in the past. Sadly, these days, I don't think any government has the balls & I don't see any religious movements having the influence to make significant changes.

He talked about Quakers & Salvation Army, which reminded me of my strongly Methodist upbringing, where many people were teetotal. My family wasn't - any more - but drink was a moderate thing, couple of bottles of wine for large family gatherings, drinks on offer when hosting dinner parties, but nothing on a regular basis. Being involved in church events as a teenager meant lots of booze-free parties/events. Of course, it didn't stop me from binge drinking a few times at uni (late 80s/early 90s) but I also had long periods where I didn't drink at all - through choice - and didn't feel ostracised for it.

BoB - I think some of it is self-esteem, but more of the issue is just what's become normalised. It's how you change those cultural norms that's interesting to me. (And ultimately, what will, I think, have more of a long-term effect).

[Riccardo]

As Italian, I never drank wine or other alcohol before I was 18 years old. Everybody has a glass of wine during dinner or lunch because wine is the national drink, but people get drunk less often than here in England. Frankly speaking, having moved into the UK quite recently, the attitude towards alcohol here is something chocking as regards quantity and behaviour afterwards.
Italians usually exaggerate with food.

Riccardo, Surrey, England

[j]

Its also the case that teens with longterm health issues do get very bored with being good. Cystic fibrosis kids especially (I have friends whose teens are getting restive) get totally sick of taking the meds, doing the physio, etc etc. Same with diabetic teens.

[Lisa]

Hm. I thinking sporty-ness (depending on the sport) can lead to more drunkenness. I went through a phase of hanging out with the rugby players, and the level of drinking was unbelievable. Puking, passing out, getting undressed.
On the other hand, if you have to get up early in the morning for training, you're less likely to want to go out boozing the night before.

[j]

Jane2, very interesting and thanks for the warnings. I think I need some very honest conversations with Child A about it. I also dont get nightclubs at all but I cant handle loud music and never could.

I spent 20 years as a chartered accountant in the city and elsewhere (including my 7 years at home on a career break)and again I dont remember that kind of initiation boozing when I qualifed in 1987- but its a while back! I do remember some sleazy clients that took the male auditors to girlie clubs and they got plastered while girls squirmed over them..ugh. Some of the men thought ugh too, they had new wives and young kids. They didnt feel they could refuse though, rather similar.

I wonder if being a musician has protected me from boozing? you cant drink till *after* the gig (Unless you are a brass player, natch). By then the hype is enough and anyway, you have a different reason for all getting together, which is the music. Its somehow less personal, less all about you.

Maybe a good way to protect our kids is to develop strong hobbies? but Jane2 's girls were still vulnerable and they were sporty.

[Jennie]

Have been reading intro plus comments with great inteerst. Truly believe that the British, and British isles descendents in Commonwealth countries, have a major problem with drinking. In other words,they drink to get drunk. As I am an American, my British husband loves to tease that Americans go to a pub for "one drink," while he says "how can anyone go for ONE drink?" Living in Hong Kong, what I see from our British, Australian, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Kiwi friends is a desire to get "blotto."
I was raised by parents who thought it was alright to drink a bit of wine or beer in the home. I never saw my parents drunk but here in Hong Kong I cannot see how ex-pat children will not have seen their parents drunk or drinking heavily.
It seems obviously not good for children to see. And when we visit the UK, it is OBVIOUS that the culture encourages people to destory themselves.

[Jane2]

Re training up pre-students, the efficacy of same:
My two girls never touched alcohol before they went to university. Hub was careful to always offer them wine if we were eating out, and on the (rare) occasions on which we opened a bottle of wine in the house. The house and garage are full of unopened bottles of spirits (gifts to hub's business) and wine, but they just weren't interested.
They never went to clubs either, being content with their social group and, as both excelled in sports, they had plenty of self-esteem.
But when they went to uni, both (two years apart) seemed to make up for a backlog and went into overdrive. Even though my older daughter has twice been hospitalised due to medical condition she still put her life on the line indulging in alcohol. The younger one took to drinking a bottle of wine in her bedroom before an evening out. We just couldn't understand it.
And what is it with these clubs? They are part of the problem. There's basically nothing to do there except be deafened, so they drink to pass the time. (Supermother, you have girls the same age and have mentioned clubs, can you shed any light on the fascination of these health hazards)?
It didn't improve when older d started work. There's a tradition well-established in her office (not Chartered Accountants, by the way,J,but similar in structure) where the whole office are given the afternoon off the day the "qualifiers" get their exam results, and the qualifiers have to pay for the drinks on an open bar system. By 5.00pm many can't stand up, and the drinking goes on into the evening. This is the norm. One day a girl had to be taken to hospital for stomach pump before 9.00pm.
No-one stands up and says, "This is bad." That would be for wimps.

[Marc]

It's a fine line... or none at all... moderate or nothing. Parents have an absolute duty having brought the new life into the world to protect it, and this cannot be achieved for sure when one is 'half cut'.

If a binge drink is required, then the responsibility is with the parents to leave their children in the hands of safe custodians whilst they have their 'fun', much like handing the keys of your car to someone else who you can trust.

Simple.

[Lucy]

J, that sounds fantastic. Please, please, keep up the good work!

People have said that we drink to give us social confidence, but I think lots of young people feel very nervous about the lack of contol and don't want to be drinking in public until they know their limits and their new peergroup.

[j]

Lucy what is also interesting from yuor first post is the pressure that lack of choice gives people- you wanted to have alternatives but you couldnt see any.

We spend a lot of time where I work negotiating policies with student unions to have booze free and booze-alternative events. We've banned subsidised drink in student bars and any event which advertises drink as the main issue. We require soft drinks to be at least as cheap as booze. We have a modest muslim population of students but they dont help much on this as they cant even come to an event where booze is served-so they are not there to set an example. Which is a pity. What I can see from your post is that this work is really important and its not just a matter of being a misery and ruining young people's fun. There are lots of young people who wish the others would just shut up and get over the booze culture too...

[j]

Lucy, KM, Jo, many thanks. Agree on time out. I have 2 days booze free a week and I shall present it that of course, that is what adults have to do, minimum....

[Jo]

Hi. I think the UK social scene is built around pubs and clubs or having drinks with friends at home. When I was a student (2003-2006) we did love the cheap booze nights and drank quite a lot, however, most of my friends would be unlikely to drink a lot (or at all in my case) if they were going home alone and I very rarely had to clean up after them or myself. Sometimes though people forget their tolerance levels or drink too fast and therefore end up much drunker then they thought. My parents often had wine with meals or took us to family pubs on hikes and we got of have sips of alcohol which I think made drink very un-interesting to me. Now I probably quite carful with how much I drink. It is all about the learning curve and I do think there is a bit of preassure to drink as a student but it is probably the best time to do it as you have more opportunity to recover:-)I think exposure to people drinking in low quatities and it not being taboo is really important to being able to deal with it when you are older. J has the right idea and I am sure your son will have a great time.

[kieransmum]

Love the common sense, J.

When's that book coming out again?

[Lucy]

That sounds really useful, J - wish someone had taught me the first aid/ practical side!

As to 'In practice, it was perfectly possible not to be part of it' - yes, and particularly the binge element. What's not so easy is avoiding a drinking culture, as opposed to a binge-drink culture. It's quite easy to think drinking until you humiliate yourself and fall over is not your thing, but the constant 'glass of wine with that?' is a bit trickier. What I didn't like in retrospect was the way that a lot of us went from being tispy after a glass or two of wine, to sinking a whole bottle or two without trouble. Except, of course, to our livers and our pockets! We didn't set out to turn into heavy drinkers, but tolerance can rise scarily high before you notice you're doing the damage. Maybe encourage the idea of alchol time-out, J? Might be more of a girlie (detox-y) idea though ...

[mumoftwo]

Hmmm, I went to university in the late-eighties, early nineties and there seemed to be quite an embedded culture of drinking everywhere I looked, from clubs to parties to academic receptions. To be honest, I really enjoyed it; it was fun to be a drunk 19 year old. I had lots of fabulous nights out, dressed up to the nines, drinking Martini triples and 'getting off' with guys. Of course, when my girls go to university I shall be horrified when they go out and 'binge-drink' or have relationships with men they met on a night out, but sadly I won't be able to condemn as I did it myself (I don't think the casual sex thing had quite kicked in when I was younger, though I did have a lot of boyfriends and didn't have any intention of waiting for true love).

As for whether this reflects low-self esteem, perhaps, perhaps not. I haven't found it difficult to leave this lifestyle behind. I've become physically intolerant of alcohol and haven't drunk for about ten years (although I would still like to have the odd glass of wine, sigh). My father was also an alcoholic and having to clear up his sick is a strong childhood memory I wouldn't want to repeat.

[Annamac]

Agree with ExpatBrit. All the more so, as I have also lived in SE Asia and seen exactly what is described in EPB's post.

[j]

Lucy, that is very useful. I am going to be discussing with Child A exactly this kind of thing- what will he do in an event which is overtly booze-based? what will he drink? is he prepared to monitor and stop (in which case spirits and strong wine might be OK) or would he rather just relax and lose count(clue: low alcohol lager would be a good choice). I intend to take him down the pub to learn the brand names and see what's on offer so he can ask without looking a prat. He also needs to know that the wine we drink at home (old french claret) is way out of his student price bracket and he needs to be very wary of 14% skull-crusher Shiraz and Merlot especially if it's from a really sunny country like Chile or the US.

I'm also going to take thim through the first aid you need to care for someone who is out of their face (bin liner on the bed covered with towel for when they puke, bucket ditto, if possible sleep nearby, if its a girl get her friend to sleep nearby, never assume someone can get home OK if they are pissed, especially a girl but always get a girl to help you with a pissed girl). If that doesnt put him off, nothing will!

I think he has the intention not to binge drink, what he needs is a strategy and the knowledge. I hope.

[Sarah]

It's been said already, but there's a world of difference between drinking and getting drunk - the latter is obviously not acceptable when responsible for children, and not a good example to them either. However I don't at all see the harm in children seeing you drink moderately - I think taking pleasure in good food and drink is a good thing for children to learn, and part of that, for many people, is a glass or two of a carefully chosen wine with dinner, or a cold beer on a summer afternoon. Of course getting drunk should be discouraged, but that doesn't mean all alcoholic drinks should be discouraged, any more than the fact that binge-eating should be discouraged means you should never let your children see you eat!

[M]

So, Rui, how do you explain the Brits' failure to step up to the Cafe Culture offered by Dawn Primarolo?

[Rui]

I don't agree with expat brit. Anglo-saons are NOT anti-social. The homo sapiens is quite gregarious and so are anglo-saxons. The problem lies in the LAW limitations that prevents the brittons to develop a culture around drinking.

When the british government starts treating british drinkers like adults they will behave like adults.

[expat Brit]

The British (and Anglo-Saxons in general) are alcoholics because, at heart, we're antisocial (in the sense of "unsociable") individualists according to our upbringing. This "me against the rest of the world" mentality means that, to be able to let our guard down and mix comfortably with others, we need a drink or two, which can easily develop into a problem habit. In other parts of the world, there's no sense of insular individuals living inside their own bubble with distrust of everyone else, which is how Anglo-Saxon culture is constructed. In fact, in most of Asia, such as the Philippines where I live, people are proud of keeping face in public and would be aghast at being seen drunk. This Anglo social structure based solely on individual achievement produces constant stress on the "isolated" individual, and alcohol happens to be the best substance to relieve this kind of social stress. These days, Anglo-Saxon societies are more fragmented and socially isolating than ever, so I can only see alcohol becoming an ever greater problem. Strangely enough, when I stopped living in Anglo-Saxon countries, my occasional binge drinking stopped. I don't hang out with Anglo-Saxons any more. However, I've noticed that many ex-pat Anglos who hang out in tourist areas abroad with fellow Anglos only develop a worse drinking problem as they wallow in their shared sense of isolation. The key is to travel and open your mind to the way people live in other countries. You can learn so much from the less "me-oriented" cultures of other parts of the world, where people are naturally not so self-conscious as us Anglos and don't need to get plastered to open up to their fellow human beings. Pride in your country and pride in making a contribution to your community as a worthy member of society is valued highly in Asia, and those who are often drunk are viewed as losers and looked down upon. However, in the UK, being drunk and out of control is seen as cool. And yet it's far from that. It's a sign of tremendous character weakness and what I call the "social autism" of the Anglo-Saxon peoples.

[Annamac]

The binge-drinking culture was already thriving when I went to university in the early 80s. Actually, I remember it was already fashionable at my expensive girls' boarding school - and certainly drinking to excess at parties was also completely usual at the grammar school that I attended up until the age of 16. At my brother's expensive boarding school, they had an in-house bar which served beer to the 16 year olds (also early 80s). Yep, I don't see how they got away with that either, because the boys did not always drink moderately. Not surprising their results weren't up to much. I don't think binge drinking is a new issue at all, but it has, I think, become far more widespread as people have more disposable income in general than they did 30 years ago (even in these credit crunch times). And also there has also been the evil development of alcopops (yuk)..

[Baggofbones]

Lucy: binge-drinking was a big problem when I was at university (and I started at university 19 years ago - gulp). When I received my Information Pack through the post, I nearly decided not to go to university at all - it advertised nothing but pub-crawls and cheese-and-wine events. I was completely horrified.

In practice, it was perfectly possible not to be part of it. My friends were a mixture of binge-drinking types and occasional-glass-drinkers. I didn't drink any alcohol at all for the first two years at unversity (I think I was making a point that you could have just as much fun sober as they claimed to be having while drunk - and I could remember it the following morning). Then I rather gave up making a point, and allowed myself the occasional vodka and tonic.

Drugs were also around though, again, it was perfectly possible to avoid them. Casual sex was more of an issue - there was lots of it (often alcohol-related). Again, it wasn't my thing. I always felt that the whole alcohol/drugs/casual sex thing was caused either by boredom (teenagers had been given everything under the sun by their parents; had been on expensive foreign holidays etc etc etc, so had nothing much to save up for or look forward to) or by low self-esteem (most of my binge-drinking friends were not very confident in their sober states). I think the self-esteem thing is a really big deal - on the whole, teenagers with good self-esteem won't get drunk to make themselves seem "one of the crowd"/"more interesting" (if you have good self-esteem, you don't need to be one of the crowd). I'm convinced that casual sex is linked to low self-esteem, too - if you have high self-esteem, why would you waste yourself on one-night stands?

So far as drinking goes, it's striking that the rise in teen binge-drinking has coincided with teenagers spending increasingly less time with their parents. If you're coming home to an empty house, and if your parents are patently more interested in themselves and their careers than in being available for you, I can see why friends might come to take the place of family, and why alcohol/drugs/sex might have some appeal. After all, it's something to do after school...

[evee]

generally dont drink very much. would have a glass or two once our son has gone to bed...occasionally have a glass of white on a summer afternoon. i always saw my parents drink in front of me....not drunk...and it didnt have an effect on me. it did normalise drinking in moderation. if its never talked about and never done in front of kids it makes it a taboo subject and it becomes something exciting that kids will then want to explore in secret.

[Lucy]

J, about alcohol and university culture at the moment: watch out! A child who goes up to uni will typically have the (non) choice either of a week of activities revolving around drinking, many of which - eg. pub crawls - really encourage extreme drunkenness, or of sitting alone in your room, struggling to meet people and get to know them. I *wish* there were lots of activities that didn't require alcohol, but where I was, I just don't think there were. Similarly, every college dinner with the faculty, every careers event, every extra-curricular lecture, would be attended by bottles of wine. Often, high tolerance was equated with suave maturity, and student bars were willing to promote the 'wall of death' (a shot of all the spirits behind the bar) as a challenge, and to sell spirits in over-large measures with a nod and a wink. There was also - although I know of other unis where this was emphatically not the case - a drugs issue, and it was often assumed that alcohol was the very least anyone would be indulging in.

It can very easily seem that the drinking culture is not only sanctioned by the law, but also by older, more worldly-wise students (who organise the pub crawls of freshers' week), and by the teachers themselves. I'm not trying to excuse my generation, but more to give my view of what might be in store for your teenager. For my lot (nearly the last yeargroup before top-up fees) the student loan must have been a big factor - suddenly, we 18 year olds had all this money that seemed (in the first year) limitless.

Anyone else - how typical is my experience? I really worry about it all.

[Jane2]

Am really, really shocked by the post from Northern Territory.
In the UK I've seen alcohol implicated in, if not entirely responsible for, nervous breakdown, family breakdown, marital breakdown, physical breakdown and depression and nervous problems among other family members, often spreading over two generations.
In many cases it is not recognized that alcohol is an issue, and things like stress, over-working, incompatibility etc are blamed.
I used to be sick with worry about my 23-year-old daughter drinking, as she has a medical problem which doesn't mix well with alcohol. Thankfully, after a couple of very bad scares, she has learned her lesson and keeps off it now, but the peer-group pressure on her to have a drink is relentless, even when she has explained why she isn't drinking.
It is a big problem building up for people her age and younger who feel that they have to get wasted in order to be part of the group. I don't think any of them have the slightest idea what is happening to their livers.

[j]

"I think the UK does have a barking relationship with alcohol. When I went to University, it was expected that if you went out, you were blotto. It was encouraged with super-cheap drink deals (50p for vodka anyone?)."

v interesting Lisa- I am guessing I am about 10-15 years older than you are.

When I was at Uni I might have drunk two gflasses of wine maybe once a week, max. I saw people drunk maybe twice. I got drunk at my finals dinner and once more when I was young and naive at a party and I am *still* ashamed of it, 28 years on. (and no, I didnt do anything worse than just go to sleep in my room-I wasnt even sick).

I think the drink culter in the UK may well date back centuries as many people have said before but I also think that growing up in the 70s and going to Uni in the 80s maybe we were a generation that drank an awful lot less than the generation following us. So who knows, maybe our children will follow us and we will cycle back? after all, out parents grew up during/just fater the war and had fairly modest habits: the parents of this generation were that much younger and richer growing up.

I am surrently rampoing up child A's booze educaiton. At 16 I reckon I have 2 years to get him from never really drinking at all. to being able to go to Uni and know his limits and make his choices with enough experience behind him. I dont want him collapsing dead drunk on day 2 cos he has no idea.

[Clairey]

Gosh, this is a pretty thought provoking thread! It's never occured to me not to drink in front of my daughter...but that said I like a glass of wine max two and don't like being drunk (read out of control!)so have never been drunk around her.

However we have a social life that often (especially on these sunny nights) involves the village pub and friends with lots of children, a glass of wine and supper. I'd like to think we're all responsible and there is no mystery to alcohol for the children - but it has certainly made me think!

[Almudena]

I am Spanish myself and my sibblings and I did grow up with my parents and family having a drink or two in special dates and sometimes during meals. We grew with it and now that we are adults we do enjoy the taste and we do not look at it as a way to get "wasted". I think it is a lot to do with education. Why hide the fact that you drink? As soon as your kids are old enought they will do the same!

[Almudena]

I do not think that have an alcoholic drink in from of your children it is a problem. The problem is when the kids see you getting drunk and that you are actually are enjoying it. I got to say that I am Spanish and since I was very little my parents and family always have a drink or two when going out or special dates. We did grow up with it and now that we are adults we learnt to enjoy the taste, not to get "pissed" or "wasted". I think it is a question of education rather than hidding the fact that you drink,because sooner or later they will do the same! We do drink for socializing and enjoying the taste of the drinks, not to get drunk! English seem to drink to get drunk, in my opinion....

[Not such a yummy mummy]

I'd like to post something witty and intelligent but it's rapidly approaching the Chardonnay hour!

[D Dickson]

PS. A fundamental point often forgotten - Why does alcohol have the effect it does? Because its a poison. (Look it up)

[D Dickson]

Binge Drinkers - I'm embarresed to be British! How shameful that our so called population of professionals would degrade themselves to this level in public in the name of "fun"!!! (Yeah vomiting and breaking down your family is a great laugh!!!) And the ever popular justification "but everyone does it!!!!" Weak willed and pathetic. What happened to British pride? Respect yourselves, your families and your communities people!

[Nikki]

My granny was an alcoholic and I still remember arriving at her flat for a visit and she had sold all her Christmas gifts, food, clothes etc to buy alcohol and my parents were often called by the police to bail her as she's been standing in the street naked screaming abuse, drunk as a skunk.

I used to dread her visiting. The smell of wee and alcohol. The countless times my parents (who were living on the bread line as it was) would have to pay her bills and seek help for her - a thankless task for a chronic alcoholic.

She finally learnt her lesson when she suffered a stroke and the hospital refused to treat her in case she took the drugs in one or with alcohol. She died in the hospital and I breathed a sigh of relief.

Alcohol impacts everyones lives, some more than others. My parents are tee total (obviously after experiencing first hand the problems it delivers). My brother and I have also learned a hard lesson from witnessing the effects - we drink moderately but we have zero tolerance and sympathy for binge drinkers etc. especially those with children. I hope my children learn to respect their bodies and their families and don't go down the alcohol abuse line - it's my responsibility to ensure that happens.

[Lisa]

I think the UK does have a barking relationship with alcohol. When I went to University, it was expected that if you went out, you were blotto. It was encouraged with super-cheap drink deals (50p for vodka anyone?). You notice the barking attitude particularly if you go overseas, to places like the Southern Mediterranean (Italy, France, Spain) where people drink, but to enjoy themselves, not to get absolutely wasted. I think the UK's attitude is closer to Russia's: you drink to forget and escape. And it's not healthy.

[glitter_junkie]

I grew up in a pub, so I guess alcohol was all around me from birth. We had some alcoholic regulars, and it was clear to me, growing up, of the difference between people who drink regularly, like to drink, and those who are addicted. I don't remember ever seeing my parents drunk - although after 30 years of being a pub landlord, Dad can knows where his limits are. I rmember being shocked by going to a party when I was quite young where the supervising adults were really quite drunk and rowdy - I think I was shocked because I knew they were drunk, whereas the other kids didn't realise.
I was also stunned by my first boyfriend's parents, who were on a bender every weekend and drank heavily during the week. We might have had a cellar filled with alcohol, but my parents never did that.
Last night I went out to a houseparty. I was clearing up other people's sick at two this morning - story of my life it seems!

[witch-in-the-middle]

When my husband was away I won't have any alcohol so I'm sure of having a clear head in the event of an emergency. Likewise I won't have a drink if one of the children has a friend over for a sleepover. Otherwise we limit our intake to a couple of glasses at a time, usually with a meal, and not every night. Our children are 15 and 13 and I don't want them thinking it's natural to get legless every weekend. At the same time I don't want them thinking alcohol is somehow exciting and naughty. We usually have wine in the house, beer in the fridge and somehow when I take a bag of empties to the bottle bank it's not just jam jars and olive oil bottles....

[Debbie]

Where we live in the Northern Territory, Australia,out of control drinking is a massive problem and way of life for many people. Particularly amongst the indigenous communities where it leads to an enormous amount of domestic violence and child abuse. We currently have an intervention force in place from the government and bans on alcohol in most public places as well as in all the aboriginal communities. You go to jail, get your car confiscated and massive fines if you get caught taking any alcohol into an indigenous community here.

The levels of alcohol abuse here are a massive problem and at the bottom of most of the social problems we have here in The Territory. If you want to see the effects of too much drinking on families just drive down any road in Darwin and you will see it at the side of the road.

The appalling effects on the children are only to evident in the reports we see here, children as young as 2 yrs old being beaten and abused, women being beaten and killed in alcohol fueled violence. These are the levels where it is essential to protect kids and families by removing them from the situation to a safe environment.

Having said that, we have the occasional beer /wine in front of the children, and the kids have seen their dad drunk on a couple of occassions on ANZAC day. I don;t think thats the end of the world, as long as one parent is sober and their behaviour does not affect the child in anyway.

Seeing what we see here every day certainly has a sobering affect on us both and we both drink far less than we used to prior to moving to Darwin and prior to having kids.

[Lucy]

'Sadly, not many people in the UK want to face the fact our culture seems to have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.'

Spot on, thanks. I really hate the fact that it's seen as anti-social and wierd not to want to get at least tipsy at any given event if you're in your late teens/twenties. My partner doesn't drink (doesn't like the taste), and gets a lot of grief and general ribbing about it. I, on the other hand, went through the proud system of one of our great universities, with its charming habit of turning out (I dunno whether the stat is accurate) 1 in 4 alcholics, and probably drink too much. I wish people would realise that there's no *need* to make social events drinking events - even if you only have one drink (or three pints - yes, three pints could have me quite, er, blurry in the right circumstances), you still build up a habit. I think drinking the odd civilised drink in front of the kids is fine, but I think it's best if it's 'this goes nicely with the food' or 'now we'll toast the new year' drinking, not, 'mummy needs her special treat'.

Very sadly, yesterday I walked past the local dive pub and saw Mum and Dad putting child and Gran on the bus before they went in for their night drinking. I just found goodnight kisses at the pub door a little ... depressing?

What do people with older/ grown-up kids do?

[Yank]

There is a time and place, but I would never let my children try any alcohol even in sips. That is an adult drink with an age attached for a reason - and if I found out a friend was 'teaching' responsibility by purchasing booze for their children (ages 16 is still NOT acceptable) I wouldn't allow my child to that home. I come from an alcoholic upbringing and this is a very serious subject that is taken too lightly in this country!

I've never worried about having a glass of wine in front of the children - I think that there's a big difference between drinking and getting drunk. However, I'm really worried about how insidious drinking can be. I realised that most evenings my husband and I would open a bottle of wine to drink with dinner, and by the end of the evening it would be empty. When you tot up the number of units per week that that involves it's scary. I've never felt that I have a problem, and indeed I think that most of our social circle drink in exactly the same way as us. However, I'm currently not drinking at all (pregnant), and am seriously considering never doing so again...

[Delilah]

I think the danger is the link that forms in children's minds between becoming drunk and having a good time. I think this is less to do with parental behaviour than what the children pick up from adult society as they enter their teens. In Britain an undue amount of socialisation revolves around alcohol. I think this stems partly from a lack of alternative pursuits - people seem unable to think beyond meeting in a pub or restaurant ostensibly to talk but mainly to drink - but mostly from an assumption that if alcohol is not drunk, the event will not be a success. One thing I adore about the US is the rather Puritanical attitude to alcohol, which excludes alcohol from many public and youth-orientated events. If you had to wait to get drunk to have a good time, you'd wait a long time - so oddly many people (including teenagers) go ahead and have a good time anyway.

I have some sympathy with this couple - I once passed out in a hotel bistro after crossing the atlantic solo with three small children; the usual fatal combination of packing, early start, travel (bucket flight, no booze, one stopover, hand-luggage consisting of nappies, contraband Marmite sandwiches and billions of five-minute entertainments), arrival, train and taxi to final destination, jetlag, a plate of spaghetti and one half-pint of stout. Fortunately my children also passed out - one with his face in a plate of food, we still make jokes about it - my sister had to shake us all awake and help us to bed, and even then one bed got soaked because I was too gaga to remember bedtime pull-ups.

[Baggofbones]

Does it promote healthy drinking habits? It depends on how you do it - like everything else, really. Do you promote healthy eating habits - and by that, I mean not turning food into any kind of issue? So many women are on diets of one kind or another that children are bound to end up having an odd relationship with food.

But I digress!

I don't really drink much (even as a student, I would make a Coke last most of the night), but have no particular reason not to drink much - I'm just not that bothered. I like a G&T sometimes after the children have gone to bed (or sometimes while they're having their bath, or while I'm making supper), but never if my husband is away (just in case I have to drive them to A&E in the middle of the night - not that I'm anxious or anything). The children (nearly 4 and 6) get a very small taste of wine with supper on Saturdays, courtesy of Daddy (who likes a couple of glasses of the stuff with supper). I hope we're teaching them that alcohol is fine if drunk sensibly, but I dare say I'll be eating my words in another 10 years' time...

[J]

Annamac, thank you for telling us that story. You right that the damage drink can do is terrible. I am old enough that my ma-in-law's father had taken "the pledge" ie was teetotal, because of the damage that drink did to his own father. And not so long ago, the Quaker villages built for working people provided their first taste of sanitation, schooling for children and decent health care- but they were resolutely booze-free- the quakers and Sally Army werent teetotal for a whim, they had hard experience of the damage drink does. I think you should be reassured though that many people have managed to break free from that heritage of alcohol abuse in the past. I am sure that with your thoughtful and compassionate support she will be fine.

On the couple, I see she "only had 3 lagers." 3 lagers would finish me off, no trouble, if they mean 3 pints of premium strength lager. Maybe it is true that they are not experienced drinkers. Still no excuse though for not stopping after one and saying, hmm, I feel a bit odd.

[Gipsy]

*hugs* Annamac. Thank you for sharing on such a personal level.

I've a close enough relationship with more than one person with a drinking problem that I simply don't buy the whole 'drinking is a sickness' thing. That seems like a cop out to me - it absolves the drinker of responsibility for their actions and in my experience, drinkers are very good at dodging responsibility for their actions as if whatever happened when they're drunk is just wiped clean when they are sober. I also know that people can have a drinking problem and otherwise seem to be functioning quite normally and doing quite a lot.

So it is possible that this couple do indeed have a drinking problem. In which case they need to do something about it. I've seen people that have pulled themselves together, but not without reaching a landmark moment first. I hope this is their landmark moment.

I do have compassion for these folks if it was a one off though. It wasn't like they were out in the middle of the street, or passed out in the middle of a field long after the bands have finished and everyone else has gone home, with three scared and cold kids. From what I've read they were in a hotel lobby at the point they passed out. This is something that will haunt them for a long time, and I can't help but feel for them in that case.

As for what is acceptable drinking and what isn't. Well, I don't see anything wrong with a glass of wine or two at a BBQ, for example. At a child's birthday party recently I had a bottle of beer. But then I'm in the lucky position of never having to worry about who is the designated driver etc because hubs isn't allowed to drink for health reasons.

[Mary]

I drink far less since I had children - hangovers and toddlers just don't go together.
But it's never occurred to me not to drink at all in front of them. They've had the odd sip, generally don't much like it but know that we drink wine, beer or whatever. There's no mystery about it, they just think of it as something that we like but they don't. Rather like liver or olives.

Sadly, not many people in the UK want to face the fact our culture seems to have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Everyone thinks of an alcoholic as being the tramp sitting on the park bench with his bottle of rough cider and his sleeping bag. The truth is, many alcoholics die before they even get to that stage. Alcoholics are people like your doctor, your child's teacher, your husband. You. People can go on for years, functioning on a fairly reasonably level as far as the outside world is concerned, whilst their liver is working overtime trying to keep them alive and their personal relationships are disintegrating, along with their sanity in some cases. Plenty of children are raised by alcoholic parents who have professional jobs. Maybe the couple on holiday in Portugal have a chronic problem with alcohol, maybe they just made a rather horrendous error of judgement. Whichever, I think they should be judged harshly and found wanting.

I grew up in a hard-drinking household of old colonials. My parents drank every day, but I never knowingly saw them drunk. I drank watered-down wine from a very early age and was introduced to spirits by my parents in my early teens. I hated spirits then and still do. I enjoy drinking wine and beer and have a (small) glass or two probably 3 or 4