Have children? Yeah, but what am I going to get out of it?

I remember very clearly what I thought I was going to get out of motherhood. I was banking on two things: one, that it was somehow going to "complete me" as a woman, and two, that it was also - and I never really examined the practical mechanics of this - going to give me enough time to write a novel. I think I'd read an interview with JK Rowling, and envisioned the child sleeping in a crib under the desk whilst I bashed out some fabulous cross between the two best books ever (Riders by Jilly Cooper, and The Railway Children.)

Well, hahahahahaha, obviously. Hahahaha. Having a child doesn't "complete you as a woman". As the minx-goddess Sarah Silverman said, "Today I learned that everyone has hole in their heart, but that you can’t fill it with a kid - because they’ll stomp on it and stretch it and make it impossible to fill in the future."

And as for the novel - well, I'm sure you can guess. As I discovered in the first few weeks of motherhood, having a newborn is a very special era in your life, when you have so little time that you often have to split having a poo between two separate days - summoned from the toilet by hysterical, red-faced screaming from what appears to be a semi-malignant otter in a pink towelling suit, who genuinely quite hates you.

But you know what? I reckon I have got a lot out of my becoming a mother. Probably more than my kids have, who are downstairs at the moment watching Tracy Beaker on CBBC, eating dry cream crackers they've scavenged out of the kitchen, whilst I write this in bed. Indeed, I reckon I've got so much out of it, I could make a list:

1) Learning that everything is "a phase". Not just biting, or a fear of Daleks, but socio-political movements, anger about the Euro, bird-flu, Alanis Morrissette. They all come, and they all go. There's not point in getting terribly worked up about them. All you need to do is hold calm in the centre.

2) Often, you don't need to do anything at all. Raising kids is, in many ways, like being sent to interview a fabulous, blingy r'n'b star. They don't really want you to interact with them very much, or ask them any questions. You've just been sent there to witness how fabulous they are, and occasionally go "Wow, you came from the projects. That must have been tough. You're amazing." Substitute "You came from the projects" with "You had to do a spelling test", and that's pretty much all kids want from you, 80% of the time.

3) Really getting a handle on the fact I'm going to die. I was never really that ambitious before I had children, because I thought I had approximately six million years left to sit around smoking marijuana, watching daytime TV and keeping a scrapbook of Richard Madeley's best sayings. But now I've made a child who's nearly four feet tall, I am very aware of the passing of time. I am going to die relatively soon. I need to get on with things. I've got my hustle on. Simillarly, I've...

4) Developed a work ethic. You never really know how much you can cram into a day until you've got kids. You also never know how many things you can do simultaneously until you've got kids. I can now easily make the tea, over-see reading aloud, keep on eye on a playdate, book a holiday, worm a cat, hold a conversation with my husband about someone we hate, and write a feature, all at the same time. All mums can. We never even mention it. And working until 2am just isn't a big issue any more. Let's face it - it's much, much easier than looking after a toddler. Working until 2am is a blessed relief, compared to attending a birthday party at ClownTown on the North Circular Road. Everything become very relative.

5) Lost my fear. I could never watch violent or scary movies before I had kids. My imagination was feral, and I once had a panic attack after my sister merely described to me the plot to The Blair Witch Project. After a three-day posterior labour, however, I came out of that hospital nails. I watched Gladiator when Dora was six days old, and didn't bat an eyelid as decapitated heads went flying through the sky. "Yes," I thought. "That was a bit like the Second Stage."

6) Made me more socially adept. I never really liked talking to strangers before. Indeed, if my husband invited his friends round, then went into the kitchen to make a cup of tea, I'd run off to the toilet until he came back. I was very awkward and self-conscious. Seven years of nurseries, play-dates, school-trips, school-gates gossip and sundry playground-hanging have changed all that. Firstly, it became embarrassing that my two year old was more socially adept than I was - going up to people and saying "SLIDE!" in a very cheerful manner, then playing with them for two hours. And secondly, you realise conversation between two human beings doesn't have to be the slick, Emmy-Award winning, West Wing-style patter you believe it should be in your childless world of pubs, parties and work. Humans are actually quite simple, happy people. You can just talk about the kids' shoes, the vicious local tom-cat, and the new chutney they sell in Budgens, instead. And feel a lovely, village-y, lo-fi glow about human interaction.

7) Introduced me to the best social circle I've ever had. Before we had kids, everyone we knew was an alcoholic. And to be fair, everyone we know now is an alcoholic, too. But these new alcoholics have kids, and have to be in bed by 1am tops, which has almost certainly saved us all from terrible cirrhosis. And I love the almost soap-like feel of seeing them twice a day, at pick-up and drop-off, and the constant flow of gossip and updates and running gags and plans to all hire a barge together, which never quite come off.

Looking at that list now, I realise that, actually, I was a little more than a spineless creature, lying on my back at the bottom of a pond before I got pregnant. I probably should have started earlier, really. I wasted fully ten years being some hapless, incompetent, wastrel-spenk. I'd probably be CEO of UniLever, and have won the Nobel Prize for being sexy and deep, like, if I'd got up the duff at 14.

Comments

[SB_Mary]

1. The thing I love (one of the things I love) about Caitlin’s writing is that she doesn’t say or imply “My life is/was better before/after having children”. She just points out it’s different. A deft touch, and with plenty of humour. Perhaps we could all take a leaf out of her book and stop drawing such a dividing line and planting our flags in either camp? Like men and women, there’s nothing to be gained from assuming either is inherently “better” or “worse”, and we are ALL denigrated when people do.

2. People are more than entitled to say “I am a better person than I was for having children”. We’ve seen it to be true in many cases. But when people say (or imply) “I am a better person THAN YOU for having children”… then back off.

3. If I thought I wasn’t “allowed” to read Alphamummy because of the implication that non-parents weren’t welcome here, I’d be, um, pretty narked. In fact I logged on to make a sarcastic comment about it before realising there’d be nothing to gained from it.

4. Emotions run high here, something some people can seem to forget. Posters are bearing their soul with heartrending tales of involuntary infertility, multiple miscarriages and that tragic term, stillborn. The word alone makes my eyes prickle. We ought to be supporting each other and having a care not to be over-flippant, it is easy to misinterpret. I bet Caitlin’s mortified at some of the comments posted here.

5. Some respect is in order for the people that juggle the organised chaos that is child-rearing (there! I said it!). Likewise, some respect is in order for the decision of an individual/couple not to take that route. It’s their decision. Nothing to do with you. It’s easy to get defensive when that decision is or appears to be questioned. If we wanted to be made like unnatural freaks, we’d read the Daily Mail.

6. Keep up the good work! Whether that’s pursuing your dreams, raising your children, pursuing your dreams while raising your children, pursuing your dreams while raising your children while writing an excellent column… you go, girl!

[Pat]

Just came back to this thread and it maybe worth some clarification. I don't have every aspect of my life in order. I never get to the gym and buying new clothes is a once a year event if I'm lucky - no time. Internet shopping is a great help and I love airport shopping if I have a business trip ;-)> I don't get to spend much time with friends and I keep buying books on the internet that I'll only get to read when my children leave home. I encourage my children to do some after school activities but also encourage them to have chill-out time at home as well so we're not drivign all over the place every evening. And I don't beat myself up about what I'm not !

Ad-mum I'm not trying to be a perfect mother, I'm trying to be a good mother and I think working mums have to learn that SAHM mothers are not perfect either and stop putting that pressure on themselves. Look at what you do well, you're a good mother too. I suspect you're trying too hard to be perfect because you feel you must if you work as well.

Although work is hard I would go insane if I didn't work. I need that challenge. I have a demanding job where I am good and I know I'm good. Therefore if I have to reschedule a meeting due to a clash with a school event or do a call from the playground I reason they have to accept it. I also accept that I would get a huge increase in salary if I moved to another company/country but I would lose the flexibility so I accept that as part of the deal.

It can be hard to switch from worrying about million£ deals to looking after the children but those skills applied at home can help you provide just as good (if not better) home environment for your children. I can analysis what my kids need from me and what sort of mother I want to be and focus on that rather than worrying about the extraneous things that need doing.

Apologies for offending people but I struggle with people who say being a SAHM is just as hard as working. I see plenty of SAHM's that cook junk for their children and do nothing to support the school or community but have lots of time to go to the gym, shop and meet friends. I know I spend more time with my children and do a better job of being a mother but I work a lot harder !

[KM]

ooh yes, J is so right, if you don't have contact with other bright adults you end up addicted to Alphamummy instead.

[Lucy]

I seem to be going anonymous. Dark suspicions that OH has deleted my cookie again.

That last anon. post was me

- Lucy.

Without wishing in the least to suggest I know what I'm talking about, I would like, very respectfully, to disagree slightly with the posts that concentrate on how Ad-Mum could tailor her work life or her nanny or her role in relation to the nanny. I am not a mummy but my memories of being a horrible annoying child are clear and strong, and I think that it is too easy for mums to beat themselves up and/or believe they are the source and centre of the problem. Please do keep in mind the possibility that your children are just being children - lovely, I'm certain, but also probably at times not quite angels and with a natural children's desire to annoy mummy. There is, to many children (I was one like this; I knew lots more) NOTHING more fun than testing the boundaries, trying to get a response, etc. Often, we didn't even really understand it wasn't quite so much fun for mum - if we thought about it at all.

So please - while the comments made are I'm sure constructive, don't feel you have to see this in terms of a problem to which changing yourself is the solution.

(Does that make sense?)

[Delilah]

I used to work 4 hours a day, with one full day a week (moved around to fit meetings etc). I had a lovely ex-nursery-nurse nanny (who is still an honorary auntie) looking after the kids. I didn't notice too many handover problems, although my eldest did used to kick my shins when I picked her up from school, I think she was just tired. I do think the fact that they had the same rythm each day helped.

It may be that they are slightly bored when you take over. Nannies have busy busy schedules with playdates and activities galore - after all, it's their job - and it isn't really the same as Being Home With Mother. Personally, I think children do better left more to their own devices, but you can't really ask a nanny to do that. It can be hard for them to adjust. Maybe you could be a bit more child-centered on the first day you are back, and leave the laundry and other things to the next day?

The other thing is to be honest with yourself about how much you allow work to intrude on your time at home - psychologically, if not actually juggling phone calls and rushing them off to bed so you can deal with something that came up on your "day off". If you're actually squeezing a full-time job into those 4 days, make sure you're being paid for it; and consider whether you and the kids might be better off with a nanny 5 days a week so you aren't running yourself into the ground.

[j]

admum you make it sound like going on holiday!

I think it is very true *of certain stages of childhood*. Do you by any chance have a child between 18 months and 4 years old? if so, it is going to get better, they get more normal and less manic and less unlike you. The day comes when you actually both genuinely enjoy the same ways of relaxing.

On your plan, sounds absolutely rational *but* I am guessing that you will need some contact with bright adults, whether other FT mothers or work colleagues, so dont burn every bridge.

[j]

singledad please please stay and talk to us some more. Bob is another man in the same position as you, but whose children are older- he's posting on the other thread.

[KM]

I know what you mean about the adjustment, and I'm honestly not sure what would work best - to work at managing that better, or to take the juggling route.
The thing I think you lose with the juggling route is a clear division between home and work time. Which can be equally wearying in a different way.

[mumoftwo]

Ad-Mum, I can also relate to that difficulty in adjusting between the two worlds, particularly the pace of life. I have found I have to consciously power down (say on the Thurs eve if you work 4 days) to really enjoy being with the children. When you are with the children, you have to stop yourself looking to achieve goals (which leads to you getting impatient and ratty if, say, they take a long time to tell you something) and start just being around them. I always say stuff the washing up at the end of a week and deliberately sit down, watch telly and have cuddles, chat, focus on them 100% just for a short time, then you get more into the family world and less in the business world of 'getting things done'. I don't think this happens automatically, it has taken me a while to work out how best to do this and how not to carry on with work-type goal oriented problem-solving behaviour when I arrive home. That's not to say I think SAHM have a less busy time, I've done it and it was constant and very full-on, but in a different way, with a different pattern to the day, so I can sympathise with adjusting.

If you love your job, I'd look to consciously try to manage the transition better, if you don't or you fancy a change of pace, then working a few hours a day might be a good solution (though I don't know if the feeling of never doing anything properly really leaves you once you are a parent and constantly multi-tasking!)

[Ad-Mum]

Hi KM. Huge thanks for your reply.
As per my reply to Delilah, I'm lucky enough to have a lovely nanny, so i have no worries about the children not being looked after properly when I'm not there.

I think that the issue is probably more with me. I find the schizophrenia of 4 days full on work followed by 3 days at home tricky to deal with. For example, doing everything at 100 miles an hour Monday-Thursday then slowing way down to child pace on Friday morning. Adjusting from debates with CEOs to persuading small child to eat their broccoli.

I suspect that both the children and I spend a fair bit of my 3 days at home adjusting to each other.

It certainly makes for an interesting life, but after 5 years of operating this way I'm starting to think that the stress caused, and time taken, by the constant adjustment makes me less good at either job than I'd like to be!

My hope is that if I stop doing the sort of work that I do now (which, unfortunately, I can't do on 3 days),and spend some time - at least initially - doing 100% children, then I can gradually build up a completely different and more flexible sort of employment which'll be less 'all or nothing' and more 'a bit of everything'.

Wishful thinking?

[KM]

SingleDad, what you said is beautiful and profound and I want to stick it on my wall. (elbows Caitlin out of the way). Please don't stop posting now, we need men who are thoughtful and interesting and care about their children on this blog otherwise it all gets very one-sided.
We seem to be getting a sudden spate of nice men, or at least ones who don't just post abuse and then leave, which is lovely.
(The nice men are lovely, I mean, not the shouty nasty ones)

[KM]

Took me a while to answer Ad-Mum's post, because I wanted to think hard before I did so. I'm SAHM at the moment but have studied whilst my first was small so have a sense of both worlds. There is no perfect solution, you will feel frustration and disappointment whatever you do.

What is most important is that clearly your children flourish with having you around them. That is wonderful and is the most important thing, whether they go into childcare as well or not. So no one is going to be damaged by whatever decision you make.

Some questions:
are they in a nursery or with a childminder? Long days at nursery can overtire and overstimulate some small kids.
If with a childminder, are they getting enough sleep/down time during the day?
Do you think they are actually suffering because you are at work, or do you think it is more a case of the grass is always greener?
I ask because the radical solution of giving up work MIGHT not be best, there might be other simpler things that you can do. Also, if you are only seeing them morning and evenings well of course they're exhausted and impossible - it doesn't mean the childcare isn't suiting them just as a working parent you're getting them at a bad time of day.

Can you cut back to 3 days without losing your job?
HTH. Sorry to be nosy.

[Caitlin MOran]

Singledad, I'm really genuinely moved by both your story, and your honesty in telling it, and just want to say "thank you for sharing," and are you fit?

[Ad-Mum]

Hi Delilah! To answer your question, I have a lovely nanny (ex nursery nurse) who looks after the children 4 days a week. She's not only great at playing with them, but also strict when necessary!

I suspect (and it's just a theory) that it's easier, and less disruptive for children) if you can do a more flexible/freelance sort of job which means working e.g. 4 hours every day, rather than not being around at all 4 days a week, then around constantly 3 days a week.

But, hell, I think that what we all know is that no solution is perfect.

SINGLEDAD - all power to you! Your son is lucky to have such a great Dad xxx

[SingleDad]

Yes. I have been going through much the same transformation since I became a single Dad when my son's mum died. I soon realised that my experience as a City high flyer was the only ground I had on which to make a beginning but that would be too limited as a source of ideas as to how to conduct family life in the best way for my boy. It has taken single mindedness (I am only now, after 3 years, looking to take on a "proper" job) but that has given me time to learn the value of what Caitlin talks about. As she says, I have also been relearning my beliefs and attitudes about myself, friends, work and Life.
Nothing will bring my wife back but learning about taking responsibility for more than being a 'dad' has given me (and my boy) so much. As important as healing is the assurance that comes from not having tried to 'get back to normal' by being just a 'successful' modern man. Trying as hard to make myself fit to be as successful a parent as I was trying to be a successful City type has changed me in ways that I think are good.
However, as Caitlin's article points out, this is 'just a phase' and it has been one which, from the financial point of view, I want to end soon. Thus, as a single parent I have had to accomodate the fact that being diligent about making a good life for my boy is a trade off against my future financial security. I am lucky to have a good education and some skills (and savings) to fall back on and I can't imagine how daunted many single parents (who don't have them) are.
I hope (and intend) never to loose the depth that learning to do the 'mother's side' of child rearing has given me. I expect to be a much better friend and colleague to people who are achieving all this while meeting the demands of a job. I am also much happier and I never want to lose that.
I salute the working (and not working) Mums of the World but I also admire the insights and depths that your position can give you. I am awestruck by the courage and achievements of single parents.
Caitlin, thanks for a great article!

[mmmm]

Hello Lazy Mummy,

Thank you for replying - unfortunately I'm reading this 2 mins before setting of to the airport so can't reaply but since you took the time to write I wanted to say hello, and I will reply on monday, watch this space!

[Lazy Mummy]

Hi MMMM -

Wanted to respond to your earlier comments (but a bit behind as this blog just exploded).

When I think about it, when I wrote my earlier comments, I was thinking more of friends/family who have chosen not to have children (and who have v. idealised views of what bringing up a child can be like) not of people who've been unable to have them; having experienced infertility myself, I do know how excruciating it is, and I certainly wasn't deliberately trying to offend anyone who has experienced it. I'm sorry if I offended you.

But (and I hate this metaphor - I know it's been used by other people on AM before) I do think there are things parents have in common just as there are for others who have trodden the same path as each other. I'm probably not being v. articulate here but just as anyone who's suffered infertility, or anyone who's adopted a child, or anyone who's been in a riot or a war zone together has a common understanding of some things, so, I think, do parents.

Hmm, in terms of fulfillment, I never thought I wanted a child until suddenly I did, and I never assumed that having a child would fulfill me or complete me as a woman or any of that stuff. And it didn't (complete me, that is - though it is, for me, fulfilling). I love my child, more than life itself, but I don't think I'm a better person for being a parent, just a more cynical one. Happier, yes. But also more stressed. Bigger highs and lows of emotion. And permanently exhausted. And still asking myself "What should I do with my life?"

[Delilah]

Ad-Mum, who looks after your kids on the 4 days you are out? I would guess that that has much more influence on the way they behave than the fact that you are at work.

[KM]

It wasn't Californian, LM, it was nice.

[Lazy Mummy]

(Oh god, I just realised how Californian my last post sounded. I apologise - in a rush between meetings but just wanted to post my thoughts...)

[Lazy Mummy]

ME - you don't give many specifics about your situation, but if your child senses that you regret their existence, this is going to have a long-lasting and damaging effect on them. From what you said, it sounds as if you feel stuck, and (having felt that way in the past myself) I know how hard and disempowering that can feel. Maybe one thing you need is help getting unstuck (or feeling unstuck). You need options.

I suppose you know if you have friends or relatives who can help you out (or the child's father - you don't mention whether you're together or not). As far as the job is concerned, I don't think you should despair, but as J says, start/keep looking. If you're in the UK, I think there are childcare places available (OK all the UK-based mothers can laugh at me for stating that). And if the job situation is partly related to qualifications, then I'm fairly sure that colleges have childcare options for students who need them.

Perhaps a good approach would be to write out your options with pros, cons & how a ranking for feasibility. That might help you come up with options and a plan. I wonder if counselling is an option, because to me, it sounds like that might help you.

[Kieransmum]

ME: J gives good advice, as usual. If you're still reading, how old is your child?
What kind of work, ideally, would you like to do?

[Lucy]

Me, I do hope it gets better. I think you are very brave. Best of luck.

Ad-mum, my mother spent most of my and my brothers' early years feeling woefully inept (so she says, and I remember it too ... oops) against mums who seemed to do it all effortlessly. But I don't think anyone (even Pat) manages with no problems at all! Everyone has to admit problems somewhere - as she says, she finds the paid work bit really hard. Comfort yourself though there was a mum whose children were constantly held up to me as a shining example by my poor frazzled mummy (the mum was also, according to her boast, a whizz at work ... too perfect, clearly). Nowadays, her children have grown up into utterly boring adults who have gone through life with no interest in anything, and, despite being quite bright, at least one of them is doing a dull, badly paid job that he doesn't enjoy. They never learnt to test the boundaries, and without mummy offering constant structured play, they didn't seem to know what to do. Seriously, they are quite sad, unsatisfied adults. So ... maybe your children are actually giving you a hard time at the moment because you are giving them the interaction and so on that they need to become exciting people?

(NB - Pat, I'm not trying to have a go at you by the comparison - what I mean is that people who claim to have *every single aspect* of life running perfectly tend to be struggling/ skimping in one or another way - and I know you weren't in the least making that claim. Argh .... these scary anti-mum posts are making me so jittery about upsetting people. :-(

[Gipsy]

Ad-mum - rest assured that Pat is the first working-outside-the-home mother that I've heard say that!

ME - my apologies! I often miss posts, I think because I either scroll too fast through comments or because I'm just not reading all the newly posted comments since I was last on.

Let me send you lots of *hugs*

[Mumofboyz]

"am I the only one who doesn't feel very good at it a lot of the time?"

No, Ad-Mum, you are not. I work 3 days a week and although in many ways it's perfect, I sometimes feel that as a result I'm neither doing particularly spectacularly in my career or as a mother. I'm always trying to do little bits of work when the kids are in the house and not spending enough time with them, which makes me feel guilty - I also wonder if perhaps I was with them full time I would be better at thinking up ways to entertain them.

But I also enjoy my work days, and think I would go slightly insane without them....and so, we muddle along. Still, who wants to be perfect? As Caitlin originally pointed out, often you don't need to do anything at all, and the children are still quite happy.

[j]

nobody seems to have answered poor "me" who posted that she is shattered, lonely and unemployed having a young unplanned child.

Poor you. You need to believe that the problem is soluble- the first step might be for a friend to give you a morning off-duty under the duvet so you can face the second step, which is to look into the various back to work support offered at the jobcentreplus, if you feel that really you need some employment and a break.

[j]

Ad-Mum now use your professional skills of analysis. you know that to sell people things, you have to get them to focus on a pretend world where the thing for sale is obviously important, and suspend their common sense about the wider world. ("you know how often you *really need* those favourite beige elasticated-waisted trousers? well now, thanks to rip-off industries you can have that all-important second pair always in the wardrobe...").

Pat is a good mother, and so are you, but if you cherry pick the things where she is strongest and compare yourself to that sub-set of her life, you will feel bad. I am sure Pat would be the first to say there are others things she finds hard but which you might find easy.

I do get a sense that you are finding your current decision very difficult. That may be because there are strong arguments on both sides- which turning it round means you are in the good position of having two viable options. Probably either way, you will end up with a good outcome, so your chance of a disastrous mistake is much lower.

[Ad-Mum]

Pat, you're exactly the sort of mother that makes me feel so inept.

[Pat]

Caitlin I especially loved number 2 !

I don't really get the bringing up children is hard bit though. My kids bring me joy and love and fun and from when they got to the no night time feeds age I've been constantly surprised by how easy it is. I work hard at a full-time+ job that can be done around school/children hours although obviously time for me is non existent. Looking after the children and talking to them is easy and relaxing. I seem to interact with them more and certainly bake/cook more than their friends mothers. (Although I'll admit my house is often messier). Paid work - now that is hard.

[Gipsy]

*hugs* Ad-mum - I think that just about all mothers feel that way. There's that 'mum' guilt gene waiting to kick in as soon as conception starts.

The only thing you can do is be the best mum you can be and not try to find a way of 'measuring' your success.

[Ad-Mum]

I completely agree with all the 'Motherhood is lovely' sentiment, but am I the only one who doesn't feel very good at it a lot of the time?

I wonder whether working 4 days a week does make it more difficult to do a good job of being a Mum.

I find that by the time I've spent 3 days at home with the children I'm pretty much in control and everyone is happy and calm. After 4 days in the office they're over excited, behaving badly and I feel totally overwhelmed.

Is it just me?

I don't know whether if I stop work (which I'm planning to do), I'll get better at it, or whether I'll just end up feeling inadequate for 7 days instead of 3.

I find running millions of pounds of business and a group of 30 people a hell of a lot easier than managing 2 children under 5!

But the challenge and constant learning is part of what I also love about it.

And Seraphine, I had 2 miscarriages and have a lot of friends who've had more than 3 and all have children now (some with a little intervention!). Don't despair!

[Kim]

GC - you ask "where was the judgement on anyone else?" Maybe in the words "Forgive me for saying so, but Good lord, what an awful way to live!"

I think that's fairly clear.

Lucy - agree entirely, and of course non-parents are welcome if they are interested and have something worthwhile to say. People who just pop out of nowhere to insult us are, for obvious reasons, less welcome.

I spent most of my adult life as a non-parent, so I'm reasonably sympathetic to the view that parents can be annoying - as a non-parent, there were some parents who really got on my nerves. You know, the type who both demand sympathy for all the sleepless nights they're experiencing and make pitying comments that imply that if you haven't managed to reproduce yourself you must be a loser. I try not to be that kind of parent myself - but the nice thing about Alphamummy is that because you're with other mothers, you can moan as much as you like because we're all more or less in the same boat. Does that make sense?

[Lucy]

GC et al (on both sides of the fence): it was very wrong for anyone, however flippantly they did it, to suggested that they wished Shoshanna's mother had not had her (not quite the same as wishing her dead!). That is clear.

Shoshanna's comment was, pretty clearly, patronising in tone and sarcastic in its wishes of luck to mothers - evidently, at best the poster took no trouble to consider that her statements might upset others, and at worst, she came across as mocking and belittling parents, and I for one thought a little more politeness would have been appropriate, especially (but not exclusively) in a blog aimed at parents.

I don't see how anyone can fail to realise that this blog does have a target audience of parents, and fail to extrapolate from that that many of its posters may be parents. GC, I would really surprised if you genuinely failed to notice this, despite the link from the Times online front page. I would be nigh on incredulous if every comment like Shoshanna's could be explained by simple 'failure to notice' the AlphaMummy logo at the top of the page.

@ Kim: I am not, as it happens, a parent, although I would like to be and hope one day to be. I do enjoy this blog, because the comment is interesting and informative, and because I genuinely want a forum in which I can think about issues to do with being a parent (eg. the often-raised issues of finance and childcare), which will hopefully leave me better informed when and if I do have children. I *like* this blog.

I don't see why I, or GC, or Shoshanna, shouldn't post here. I do see that we (and everyone else posting) are liable to attract more polarised and communal opposition than on non-specific fora, if we make comments that are inimical to the declared target readership.

[Caitlin MOran]

SCREAM Valerie P - you dirty bitch! I love you.

[j]

ps hang on, are there two Chloes posting, one with a new baby and one child-free? miight explain a lot...(glugs more white wine)

[j]

"Pity Shoshanna's mother didn't feel the same way!" was a revolting comment, as someone said straightaway. We get them sometimes and the normal reponse is to ignore them and hope they dont bother coming back- V, that means you, unless you apologise.

[j]

"Sorry to have an opinion, next time I read something I have have a view on I will just keep quiet! I'm sure I won't be in your future though I tend to associate with people with more about them. (Parents or not!)"

Chloe ironically I think Davide was (a) a drive-by troll and (b) agreeing with you. Ignore him.

I think- as I said before- that you made a good point. This is all part of competitive moaning fun that everyone enjoys, whether its how much it rained on your wedding day, or whatever. Coming to ti cold, I can see why it is hard for you to pick out where we are tongue in cheek and where we mean it. Underneath it is a serious point that we all have to grow up some day, and as you say, there are many ways to do it.

I dont think mothers are superior to child-free adults. I do think I have learnt a lot through parenting that I would have had to learn another way if I had not had children. But I also enjoy many of the same things you do, including my career and my free time.

[Valerie P]

8. Enormous Hips
9. A virtual lobotomy
10. A front-bottom like a ripped-out fireplace.

[GC]

"I'd agree that the comment directed at Shosh was out of order."

It's always nice to start by agreeing on something!

But I'd also say her original comment was uncalled for.

"it would be bad for me to go on a blog for non-parents and say "Wow! Looking at you lot I'm really glad I had a child!"

You're reading more into the orignial post than was written. "I'm really glad I didn't have a child" was there for sure, but where was the judgement on anyone else?

"It's not like just responding (say) to a column in a newspaper."

In this case it's exactly like that. There is a massive, bold link to this article on the front page of the website of a national newspaper!

It's not like anyone has set out deliberately to look for some mums to piss off.

[Kim]

GC - I'd agree that the comment directed at Shosh was out of order. But I'd also say her original comment was uncalled for.

You ask why it would be bad for me to go on a blog for non-parents and say "Wow! Looking at you lot I'm really glad I had a child!" Well, it would be gratuitously insulting for a start. Other people's decisions and life choices are nothing to do with me unless they directly harm me. And it's worse than that: if you go to a blog that is aimed at a particular group of people that doesn't include you, then that suggests you are deliberately looking for a fight. It's not like just responding (say) to a column in a newspaper.

[GC]

"I thought this was a blog about motherhood, not solely for their benefit."

And then I read the blurb....

[GC]

"It is a bit odd, though, isn't it, GC?"

No.

"It's one thing to read novels about the law if you're not a lawyer, quite another to hang out on blogs"

Yes. The blog is likely to give you a far more accurate impression of what people really feel and experience and beleive

"for lawyers."

I thought this was a blog about motherhood, not solely for their benefit.

The decision as to whether or not to have a child is something we ALL have to make sooner or later.

"I wouldn't make nasty remarks about their choices. I wouldn't go to a blog for non-parents and say "Wow! Looking at you lot I'm really glad I had a child!"

what would be so bad about that? As long as you aren't calling THEM names for not doing so?

I still don't see where Shosh implied anyone else had made a bad decision.

[mmmm]

Veering off topic slightly, but since you mention her Caitlin, wouldn't it be fab to get Jilly Cooper to do a guest blog on Alpha Mummy?

[KM]

Sorry to hear about your miscarriages, Seraphina.

Davide, you have restored my faith in my statistic that 90% of the men who post on AM are idiots.

[Kim]

It is a bit odd, though, isn't it, GC? (I'm referring to your first comment.) It's one thing to read novels about the law if you're not a lawyer, quite another to hang out on blogs for lawyers. I don't, for example, frequent blogs aimed at non-parents or doctors or gays...and if I did, I wouldn't make nasty remarks about their choices. I wouldn't go to a blog for non-parents and say "Wow! Looking at you lot I'm really glad I had a child!" or to a blog for gays and say, "Thank heaven I'm heterosexual!" It would be a bit off, wouldn't it?

[GC]

Love Kim's eye for sarcasm!

[GC]

"Pity Shoshanna's mother didn't feel the same way!"

Bloody disgraceful. Wishing someone dead because they don't want kids. I'm sure you thought you were being clever with the quip, but really, really just displaying a complete lack of grace.

Shoshanna laid no judgement on parents, in fact wished them luck, merely justified her on choice of lifestile.

And the notion that childless people shouldn't be reading a blog on Motherhood. What the heck kind of thinking is that? I've never been a fresh-faced lawyer fresh out of college and tempted by a job with a mafia owned firm, but I still love John Grisham.

Curiousity and an appreciation for good writing is a bad thing now?

[Kim]

I'd love to know where Carol got the idea that the state gives you loads of money if you have a child. Apart from the fact that it's not true, having a child is hugely expensive: you have to feed them, clothe them (and they grow all the time, the little blighters), buy prams, cots, beds, nappies, car seats, bottles and god knows what else for them. Anybody who has a child because they think they are going to be better off financially is sadly deluded.

Personally I don't care whether people have children or not - it's entirely up to them. I do slightly resent the idea, though, that those of us who are parents are raking it in.

[Lucy]

Eek, there's another Lucy posting! I agree the article was hilarious though, so that's ok - I just wanted to say a pretty broad range of people (most of whom are parents, but some of whom are not, and several of whom clearly have done some time either struggling to have children or feeling that they didn't want any). I feel a bit irritated when people like Davide and Barbara refer to 'you lot'!

[Caitlin MOran]

Haha M, it's true though, isn't it? And cats always want to sit on the laps of people who are allergic to them.

[Gipsy]

LOL @ Carol, very tongue in cheek.

I have to say that reading your comment is, I wish! I would love it if having children actually put money into my account (instead of sucking it all out). And I would love it if the time after the children are in bed was actually my own - three hours a day to myself, oh my goodness!

And oh wouldn't it really be wonderful if there were jobs like that, ones where you could start late and finish early for the same amount of pay!

[Carol]

Having children is wonderful. The state gives you loads of money - my hubby and I have never had so much cash. Flexible working means I can get the same salary as when I worked full time, but now I can start late and leave early to do the nursery run. Brilliant. Thank you Tony Blair. It's so important to have that extra time with my kids, though I don't think my childless colleagues understand just how important it is. They whinge endlessly about how they have to work extra hours unpaid so that I can start late and leave early. Well, it's not like anyone is paying me to be a mother, but mothering is far and away the most important job in the world, so it's only right and fair that mothers should be allowed to work shorter hours for the same pay. Childless people should accept that working longer hours and paying higher taxes are part of their contribution to child rearing. I don't understand why they complain about not having enough time for themselves either. I don't have any time either, until my kids are in bed, and then I only have 3 hours before my own bedtime. 3 hours to myself out of 24 hours in a day isn't a lot to ask is it? I'm sure childless people have a lot more time than that. Anyway, if they want a better lifestyle, all they have to do is have kids of their own - that's what I did.

[M]

We have numerous friends who have never had children and a few who say they don't like them. Those people are the ones our children are most drawn to, ironically, particularly when they were younger and possibly more repellent to them.

[AML]

Far from being smug I think most mothers enjoy and need a good laugh at their situation to relieve the stress of it all with the help of the hilarious and human pieces that Caitlin does so well. The comments on the other hand seem to mostly lack a sense of humour as well as rather misinterpreting the spirit of the article.

[Ms Ferozi]

I have two kids now, there came a time in my life when i wanted to settle down and start a family, i had a career but that was no longer enough. First child resulted in post natal depression due to lots of things mainly tiredness, broken sleep, lack of family being around and then later on juggling career and family life. Second time around i knew what to expect and the experience was better. I don't know that i wanted anything from my kids, but despite the daily trials what you get is love. Which is what we all crave in this world and that makes u feel good.

[Lucy]

Come on people, this article was hilarious! Thanks for the laugh

[Chloe]

Quote:
This is pathetic. I hope I'm not faced with any of you lot in my future.

Sorry to have an opinion, next time I read something I have have a view on I will just keep quiet! I'm sure I won't be in your future though I tend to associate with people with more about them. (Parents or not!)

[Davide]

This is pathetic. I hope I'm not faced with any of you lot in my future.

[Me]

I had an unplanned child and every day I wish I hadn't. Boy, was I stupid. It is the hardest, most draining job I have ever done. I can't get a job now and wonder if I ever will. I never wanted kids and I knew how much hard work they would be and sadly, I was right but I can't turn back the clock and just get on with it. I live a life of quiet desperation.

[Franziska]

My child was still born and for years I longed for kids. I have now finally accepted that it wasn't meant to be for me to have kids and life without it is really not that bad!!!

In no way am I aimless, self-absorbed and self-indulgent. I simply enjoy life and being an aunt to two wonderful boys.

I hate it though when I come across some narrow minded mothers who think that just because I haven't got kids I am not entitled to have an opinion about how to raise a child or child education etc.

[Sally]

Good article.

Some interesting adjectives from posters describing childless women from rather smug-sounding mothers: “self-indulgent”, “self-absorbed”, “not-quite-grown-up”, “ingenues” and “innocents”. Obviously patronising piffle and one shouldn’t take any notice but it is just a tad irritating to childless women, especially to those who cannot have children.

I have a question. Do women have children in order to attain a less self-absorbed and self-indulgent state? Don't think so; I imagine it is for selfish reasons such as to become "complete" or "fulfilled" or perhaps to "fit in". Once the baby is born they have no choice but to look after it and therefore have to become less selfish.

Women who do not have children obviously have more time for themselves (since when has that been a sin btw), but it does not make them "self-absorbed". Childless women also have more time to give to other people and one could argue that making that choice is a more selfless act than a mother looking after her child who has no choice. I also know plenty of family units who have no time for anyone outside it; call it a "self-absorption of the family".

[Chloe]

Interesting that some people view having a child as a completion to their life or a wake up call to how tedious their lives were before. Is this a reason for bringing a new life into the world?

If this applies to you then I am happy you have found fulfilment.

However, if you have a partner how do they feel about this? Was your life with them so empty to begin with? My husband would not appreciate this sentiment at all!

Also, please do not assume that because you only found true enlightenment through having children that the rest of us mere mortals are merely bundling along having a grey and meaningless existence. We certainly don't!

[Expat Mum]

Thank goodness - I thought I was going to read a drippingly loving article about the blessings of motherhood. This was funny, practical, and honest without being mean.

[Mollie]

I've only learned one thing on becoming a parent. How bloody marvellous I am! Everything I do influences my 3 yr old's view on life, his confidence, sociability, intelligence etc. The one good thing of being a single mum with a long gone ex means however my son turns out is done to me and looking at him I reckon I am doing a fantastic job.

Agree with the other comments on children haters reading blogs about motherhood.

[Gipsy]

Competitive moaning? Another sport that the Brits think they invented and that the Aussies are better at ... *ducks*

[Seraphina]

Interesting and funny article, Caitlin Moran is such a good writer, I also liked the otter description!
I'm neither a parent nor voluntarily or completely childless, I'm a part time stepparent who's had 3 miscarriages. Would still love to have kids, but realise that it's not all a bed of roses, stepparenting gives you tasters of how wonderful and how difficult it can all be. Sadly I've never yet been through the otter stage!
I was surprised some of the comments were hostile to posts by contented non-parents, surely it's ok for parents and non-parents to read blog posts about parenting, and surely the point of an article like this is to stimulate thought and discussion on the pros and cons of parenting?
Personally I'm always glad to read articles which talk about parenting honestly, like this one, very interested by the whole thing, and very envious of those of you who got to choose whether to parent or not, just remember that not all childless people want to be childless, and nor do they imagine that parenting is always wonderful fun.
It's nice to see many of you saying that it's hard work to be parents but you also enjoy and love it, I hope I get to feel the same thing one day!

[Jo]

I agree totally... up until I became a mum I had no direction, I was drinking too much and generally was going not very far in life. Since then I have a house, a degree, a career and great circle of friends. Children can make you realise something in your self that you never knew you had- strength and belief in your own abilities. If you can parent then you can do most things in life!

[j]

Chloe does have a point and it is easy to be smug and/or martyred about any situation where we are overstretched. We do it about kids, but also about who has the most awful ma-in-law (step forward Bernanrd Manning)the most stressful job hours, or the worst experience at the old roundabout on the A34 at Newbury. Competitive moaning is such a Brit sport- how does it come across to the US and Aussie posters here? are we worse than you are?

Though Barbara is guilty of only half reading this thread or she would have ssen that her points had already been picked up, eg by Delilah, and supported by others.

KM: the Knights who go "ni" are after you, now that you have been unkind about shrubberies..;)

[Deadbeat]

Seven things I got out of having children:
1) Stretch marks
2)Varicose veins
3) Swollen ankles
4)Red raw hands
5)Bad back
6)frustrated husband
7)divorced

[Gipsy]

*gasp* KM that's incredibly offensive to shrubs.

[KM]

Oh, can't we all just get along? :-)

Childless people are not the enemy. That's George Bush, isn't it?

[Chloe]

Thank you for this interesting article. It is a pity though that some people have chosen to make such derogatory comments about those who choose not to have children.

My husband and I have decided that having children is not for us. I am pleased to hear that this makes us 'self absorbed'. Are we bad people for choosing to have a life of freedom to do what we choose and when? I rather think not.

More selfish, I think, are the parents who seem to assume I need to hear every tiny detail of the child’s birth (over the dinner table no less!).

When I once complained to a couple who have children that I was tired (after working 14 hour days for 2 weeks) I was told 'I simply don't understand how anyone with children can possibly say they are tired".

I am so fed up with the view that my life is less fulfilling and worthwhile than those who choose to have children.

[KC]

I know this is a blog about having kids but just wanted to point out that lots of childless people out there aren't just waiting for the stork to arrive before they fulfil their potential... They have other reasons - like bills to pay, family (not necessarily kids) to support, parents to look after etc.

Many things happen in life that prompt us to grow up. Caitlin's lucky that her prompt was having kids.

[Kim]

Barbara, at least tell us who you're talking about so I know whether to be offended or not.

[John]

The mothers on here do seem really busy actually...

[Barbara]

My goodness - do the words boasting, self-satisfied and complacent mean anything to you lot? (Oh, sorry, I meant modest, self-sacrificing and, well, pretty much perfect).
"What am I going to get out of it?" just about sums it up.
Now, enough about you...more about me...and how marvellous I am...

[mmmm]

What, as in, then she wouldn't have been born? Gosh, that's pleasant.

[V]

Pity Shoshanna's mother didn't feel the same way!

[M]

Me too.
Also, speaking only for myself here, what other excuse for not embracing all the opportunities I mentioned would be as plausible?

[j]

on the stick for S theme- my stick was not about childcare but my pet hate- people who try to inflate the importance of what they are saying, and make other people feel inadequate, by adding a bit of Culture- but in fact they have never read said bit of Culture at all. Its especially ironic when the thing they didnt read says the exact opposite of what they think it says, as now.

So I dont see any reason why we should all get out there and read these Classic Works unless we feel like it- the point can be made perfectly well without- but I think its dishonest to try to make others feel small when in fact you havent read these things yourself either. (its not very nice even if you have read it, of course :))

[j]

I am going to support Delilahs point as well and say that there are many ways to grow up and many ways to learn unselfishness, and parenthood is only one of them, albeit the one we mainly share an interest in discussing.

[Eve]

Brilliant article. I was working at 11pm on a train home last night after being up at 6am with my fat little alarm clock, thinking how nice it was to have the peace and quiet to finish my work. Every minute of the day is full; sometimes this can tire me but it stretches me and I am never bored. I remember pre-baby I was often bored, taking up odd little hobbies or buying a load of random nonsense to fill my days, all with a sense of the quiet desperation another poster has referred to in a different context.

[Victoria]

I do intend (fingers crossed ) to have children, but lets drop the martyrish bull-s. It is a selfish act that is completely unnecessary. There is absolutely no debate that the world needs fewer humans, not more. Well done & all that on having children but really this whole "I'm such a good person now I've had children - excuse me whilst I polish my halo" crap is making me feel queasy!

[mmmm]

Kate, I don't know if you've ever read Bad Housekeeping by Sue Limb (my much thumbed copy is going to be my bible when I have children) but there was a classic scene where Dulcie Domum is enduring a horrendous kids party with endless arguments, shouting, crying, but peace is restored with the bouncy castle as everybody just so happy to be on it. This leads her to speculate how bouncy castles could be used as a tool for world peace as it's impossible for people to argue whilst bouncing together, and there is a delightful image of all the Ayatollahs (this was the 80s) bouncing on it together. Still makes me guffaw.

[Kate]

With my youngest about to start school this coming September, I find myself contemplating paid employment and was thinking that being Head of the UN would probably be a bit of a doddle - after years of averting/ diverting small warring factions on an hourly basis, I am sure that peace can be achieved by the skilled application of bribery and threat, dark arts that all mothers become masters of.
'If you don' stop pointing those guns at people/ tidy up all those landmines THIS INSTANT, then you'll have to go and sulk all alone in your bedroom on Saturday night while the rest of us get to watch Doctor Who and eat Pickled Onion Monster Munch to our hearts' content'.

There isn't an evil dictator alive whose lower lip wouldn't be quivering.

[Gene]

How to raise children:
Ignore them;
if necessary, chat calmly to them
and respect their privacy.

[Teapot]

Great article! It's got me thinking why it is that I'm so keen to have kids. Part of it is the fun, sharing, loving, being a team together. I think also having your edges knocked off (not physically hopefully) and learning to share and be humble. A bit like marriage (except for the poo and all..).

Of course you can do all of these things by caring and serving other people, as Delilah says (very wise). I think a special bond comes from living together though, as you can't easily escape in your grumpy moments. At least, that's what I hope I'll "get out of it" if we have kids.

Speaking of which, does anyone else worry about the trend for not having any kids, and not being close to anyone in a younger generation? Already old peoples homes seem to be full of "unloved" people, whose friends have died and who have no visitors. Not that that's a reason to have kids, but it's a reason to invest in relationships with extended family, biological or non-bio.

[KiwiUK]

Ok so I can't relate to the 'Learnt As A Mum', but I do make a good Auntie.
Things I've Learnt As An Aunt
1. Kids can be bribed with presents, but hugs and kisses are just as important... especially when they should have gone to bed an hour ago
2. Just when you think they've found every bone in their body, and the best way to damage it, they discover a new one - and scream blue murder to let you know.
3. No one is immune from being roped into nappy duty.. especially at 6am on Sunday mornings if you're staying over.
4. Kids are a great diet motivator. When your niece wants to know where your baby is, because you've got 'a tummy for 15 babies', you know its time to go on a diet.
5. Responsibility; you want to behave yourself so the parents will let the kids associate with you, and you think you should set a good example while you're at it.
6. Contraception: if you're not yet ready to take the plunge, the obligatory photo in the wallet and the credit card stmt reminding you of their last birthday present helps you remember to be careful
I'm truly blessed to have 2 nieces and 2 nephews who brighten my day every moment, and I thank my sisters for them every day.

[Delilah]

I'm tickled at the offense that I seem to have caused.

As someone who was childless not through choice all through my twenties, I have thought very long and hard about why I wanted motherhood so badly - with the result that I abandoned fertility treatment. The biggest crisis wasn't accepting that I would probably never have children, it was trying to plan my thirties and beyond without children. In the course of that, I realised that the easiest, and most selfish way of seeming to do something virtuous with my life, was to fall pregnant. It's a lot harder to choose the other avenues that exist to care for, protect, and serve human beings that you don't know and may not even like very well - but those avenues are there. Be honest - how much of the "trauma of childlessness" is caused by our society, which does not facilitate a life of virtuous childlessness? And in that society, is it unsurprising that so many childless women do end up aimless, self-absorbed and self-indulgent? (As, frankly, do many childless men?).

I have some childless friends who serve humanity as faithfully and generously as a typical parent, and I wouldn't classify any of them as "virgins" consciously or not, even though many of them are in the traditional sense. But they're pretty unusual.

Go out, do something good with your life, and stop being a virgin. Don't be angry if you can't cop out and do it through motherhood (as, miraculously, I eventually did).

[Lucy]

AJ, I think the reason Shoshanna is 'getting stick', as you put it, is that this is a blog aimed at parents. See the little bar at the top with 'AlphaMummy' discreetly written on it? I guess it is easy to miss and all, but that would be the sign that you're commenting in a forum full of people who *like* having kids, who *chose* to have kids, who may, therefore, get a little stroppy with someone posting patronising messages about why parenthood is a crappy, inferior state.

...

[AJ]

Wow I love all the stick Shoshanna is getting. The sound of protesting too much methinks? Personally, I know a lot of women who think that having children is not all it's cracked up to be; but of course, once you have them, you can't admit to that.
Besides, what's so great about having kids anyway? It's just a biological process designed to ensure the propagation of the species. Which - now that the planet is ridiculously overcrowded - really isn't necessary anymore. So, I'd rather have fun with my friends, develop myself as a human being and well, have more fun. Oh, that's right, *I'm* selfish for not hoisting yet another human being on our poor planet...

[Kim]

I don't think I know anyone who regrets having children, but I suppose most people wouldn't admit to it even if they did.

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation..." is always associated in my mind with a different quote: Cyril Connolly's "The pram in the hall is the enemy of promise." I think he was talking about men too, though, restricted and confined by the need to earn money to bring up children rather than fulfil one's creative potential. Then again, I haven't read the book, so I dunno.

[mmmm]

Hi Lazy Mummy,

I don't think it's about finding the right word - it's about not needing to find one word that will describe all women who haven't had children (yet or ever).

At the end of the day you can only really compare yourself pre and post children. Caitlin has done that in a very un-smug and intelligent way. Such comparison can clearly lead to a better understanding of yourself and others, which is a great thing. But it's a big leap from that to comparing yourself to others who don't have children. And my main question would be, why do you feel the need to do it? Doesn't seem like the sign of fulfillment to me.

Sorry to be po-faced about this, I know we all make some generalisations sometimes, but I'm sure that anybody who is childless not through choice and who has been on the recieving end of this attitude can confirm how much it hurts, and how unintelligent it seems.

I think in this case it was the way it was delivered, not in a naughty, smirking behind hand, I know this is a gross generalisation but forgive me it's how I feel sometimes way, but as a 'truth' which has now been discovered by people with kids. No doubt it's very satisfying to feel that way, but more productive to respect everybody for whatever they have taken on in their life, whether it's the same as yours or not.

In other words if it was put across with humour and self-deprecation, I would be happy to take it in the same spirit.

And I've met plenty of mums keep the 'ingenue' mentality, believe me.

[Gipsy]

It sounds to me that it wasn't the children that the older lady regretted, but the situation in which she had them. Change the man, for example, and it would be a very different story.

[mumoftwo]

You are well read, J! Does anyone know anyone who actually regrets having children? I do, one an older lady who said that if she had her time again, she'd travel as a nurse rather than have her two sons and settle down with her admittedly exceedingly boring husband for forty years for a life of dutiful housewifery. The other was a harassed dad of four under five who felt his life was completely not his own. I believed the first, but not the second (I think it was just a reaction to that particular time of hellish sleeplessness rather than a genuine regret)!

[j]

Caitlin, time to stop looking after those pesky children and get on with your career, aka writing that novel we are all waiting for :)

On Shoshanna I am always cheered up to read pretentious quotations from people who dont seem to have read the book. Her quotation should read: "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation...." Ironically it is from his essay on the economy, and is talking about those people who work full-time and do not take time away from their work to experience the important things such as childrearing.

[Gipsy]

I never felt that I needed to feel complete as a woman to have children, or indeed to be married or with a partner. I think that to be complete and fulfilled as a woman, or rather as a human being, you just need to live the life that is best for you, and put in 100 percent effort for everything you do.

That said, being a mum is absolutely bloomin brilliant. I love every second of it, from his little hands around my neck, to the poo that rolls down his trousers and across the floor :) It is quite simply the most fun I've had in my life. I've done all the going to galleries etc at the drop of a hat, and I'll do it all again in a few, twenty, years or so. And money - well you can't take it with you :)

and THAT said - I woke up one day and really really really wanted to have a baby. I know plenty of women who've never felt that, and are quite happy childless and will always be happy childless. I wasn't going to be happy until I had a baby, so that wasn't a route I could go down.

[Chloe]

having pooed out the next generation (another memorable CM phrase) a mere 6 weeks ago, the otter description almost had me spraying tea over the computer. from my nose.

despite the heinous sleep deprivation experiments being conducted by the boy, it really does feel like the best thing I've ever done. Just don't ask me how I feel when he's hosed me down with shit at 3am. again...

KM - loved your response to shoshanna. why on earth is she reading a blog on motherhood?

[mumoftwo]

I have several friends who have very consciously chosen not to have children, mainly because they like their life the way it is in the present and don't want to do the 'family' thing for twenty odd years. I think they are extremely sensible and self-aware for knowing this, and I can't say I've noticed any major personality flaws with them, tbo. Better to know yourself, I think.

[M]

So odd that recently, men keep saying to me - "you've done what you came to Earth to do" or use similar terminology, which makes me sound like either a pre-programmed drudge or a fellow religious zealot. I kind of take exception and I kind of agree that I have accomplished something great. I have always wanted children, I imagined myself with lots and I have never resented the time I have given up away from other things. Often I bemoan the mini breaks I haven't had, the novels I have in plan form, never completed and the opportunities I turned down. In reality though, I have discovered a lot about myself and fellow humans and their nature, been fulfilled and discovered a different kind of creativity. So much of what you say Caitlin is true, I wouldn't give it up for the world. Every so often, I reflect and think I haven't achieved as much as I could have, but I am fulfilled and that state isn't given as good a press as it should.

[Lazy Mummy]

Don't agree with Delilah's choice of words but since becoming a parent, I've definitely realised that those who don't have children remain more, erm, something like ingenues or innocents, but not in the traditional sense (eg: Victorian virgins). Probably the whole lack of responsibility thing - even if you have run Unilever or whatever - you've never been responsible for someone's whole life in the way every parent of a small child is every single day. If someone can come up with the right word, I'd love to hear it.

Anyway, Caitlin, loved the bit about working at 2am being easier than looking after a toddler. Especially since I was working at 2am when I first read the article. :)

[mmmm]

Ouch, Delilah, that hurts! No problem with anything else I've read here so far, all very funny and intelligent, but if you are going to talk about women without children being self-absorbed... well isn't there a lot of navel-gazing going on amongst mummys here?

As you are normally such an eloquent poster, I will presume an off-day meant you just didn't phrase this as well as you could have, that there was meant to be a layer of irony over this that didn't quite make it to screen.

On the other hand many a true word spoken in jest and all that, so if deep down that really is how you see your childless friends, please consider that a)it might be a bit more obvious than you think and b)they might find it a bit.. ummm... searches for polite word...

[Delilah]

It's so true. I've discovered that mentallly I classify women who haven't had children yet as "virgins" - sometimes I use the word absent-mindedly and have to correct myself ("I mean, she hasn't had children yet") - because there is usually something childlike about them, however old, sexually experienced, travelled, or wise they are. They remain a bit aimless, self-absorbed and self-indulgent and not-quite-grown-up. Not that that's a bad thing, as we all know growing up too much can make you boring and old.

[Nikki]

Brilliant post Caitlyn, had me laughing out loud - husband looking at me like a mad woman!!

Have had to read extracts to him and now he's laughing too. More funny posts like that plllleeaaseeeeee - love it!

We've a nearly 3 year old and a 20 month old and he's right now screaming (teething) so rather than worry about it, we've put the timer on and will check him at regular intervals - so you see - another skill learnt - better time and crisis management!!

[Wendy V]

Well, when you do finally get time to write that novel, Caitlin, I bet it will be a hoot.

As for phases, I'm finding the kids-at-university phase extremely civilised. Seems like only last week I was helping them stick and paste primary school projects; now they're producing work so flippin' brilliant, I feel like a dunce. Instead of getting school requests for dinner money, I get a nice note from one university asking me to tick which wine we would like at the graduation dinner. And I get to know bits of England that were previously just blobs on the map. And I"m a dab hand at cramming a child's entire possessions into the back of a Vauxhall Zafira.

My 6-year old son has phases entirely his own. Currently Greek myths are in (Shoshanna, cloth-vs-disposables soon makes way for more interesting stuff), which meant last night he didn't want to go to bed because there was an opera on telly about the Minotaur. With all the screeching and atonal music (Harrison Birtwistle...) I thought he'd last 5 minutes, but he stuck with it for over an hour and wanted us to record the rest. Blimey it was gory and took some explaining, and some deft glossing over. That's one parental art I've learned: when to explain and when to gloss.

[Kim]

I very much enjoyed Shoshanna's contribution. I bet you're a really fun person to be around, Shossanna.

Agree with Caitlin that the best things about having children are the ones you'd never expected. I've discovered that I now have licence to do a whole load of stuff I couldn't or wouldn't have done as a non-parent, to wit: visit the Doctor Who exhibition at Earls Court; whizz down the "fun rings" on our local dry ski slope; try out the inflatable obstacle course at our local swimming pool; go on the Dyno-ride simulator at the Science museum (oh, boy, can I recommend that) and, um, so on. Of course there's lots of dull stuff too but it's not really a balance sheet, it's more about getting a completely new and irreversible perspective on life.

BTW, I can't really believe that Caitlin was ever socially inept, can you?

[supermother]

Having babies was what I wanted from about age 12 or 13. I always felt I needed and wanted it. 5 is great. I would have been happy with 7 probably if their father had wanted more.

What have I got out of it? I don't see life as about what I get out of it but what I put into it but certainly it fulfilled my maternal instincts. I was always very mature so it enabled me to move into that maturity as a full time working mother of 3 working in the City by the time I was 26. I liked that - that I had all those gorgeous babies and that lovely career too.

It gave me things in common with older colleagues and clients. So I felt it had some business advantages too.

It kind of stabilises you too because you have those financial responsibilities to support your children (and spouse).

It probably preserved our not very happy marriage for longer than otherwise would have been the case - whether that's a good or not I am not sure.

[Mumofboyz]

Caitlin you are far too talented to be CEO of Unilever - fantastic article.
I think you should definitely write that cross between Riders and the Railway Children by the way. I can just imagine it: "Rupert Campbell-Black thought lasciviously about the nubile Roberta and her red flannel petticoat as he cracked his whip..."

[Eluned]

Another fantastic article from Caitlin, should have her own blog! :]

The really important things I've 'got out' of being a mum can't be described in words, I feel, but I'll have go. I've certainly become more confident. I used to compensate for my shyness with the dreads, colourful tattoos and loud clothes and I only ever spoke to non family members/close friends when I felt I had something relevant and interesting to say so I kept schtum most of the time! Now I can hold a conversation on any subject and with anyone. Definetly came into my own whilst pregnant and especially after giving birth. I just couldn't believe my body could do what it did without any assistance and I thought if I could do that I could do anything.

Closer to God than I was. I was always faithful and I stuck to the rules and everything but having children has made see that He really is on my side and always find myself, in between doing french plaits and picking soggy rusk crumbs out of the VCR, thanking Him for them.

I suppose it's somewhat of a foregone conclusion that you become more organised and efficient, but I'm still amazed. Pre-children I had my head in the clouds most of the time and it could take me hours to do the simplest tasks.

Been good for my health too. Gave up smoking, drinking, drugs etc which I wouldn't have if I never had children. I resumed the smoking when my youngest weaned but wasn't long before it was made clear I'd made a mistake in taking her off the breast so I had to stop again. But I think that was more God telling me not to go back to bad habits than her really needing to be nursed again.

Always been a muddler, bumbling through life with no particular expectations and doing whatever takes my fancy at the time. Very little thought went into marriage and babies, it just happened straight after being capped and it was wonderful and actually, yes, there is a sense of completion in having children. Like I've done what I was made to do, as a woman. Nothing wrong with my psyche :] Obviously I'm not absolutely 'complete' but that's good since I'm of the belief that the moment you realise you've done all you can is the moment you die. The love you have for your children is just a whole other animal and I would be most incomplete without it.

[Debbie]

Totally agree Lucy, although they drive me up the wall at times, having kids is the best thing I have ever done in my whole life (and I've done lots of really fun interesting things!).

There is a whole part of you that you just don;t even know exists until you have children, a part of you that can put your own preoccupation for the sake of your children. A well of love that you never get to express until you have a child. The love you feel for your child and your joy you take in them is totally different to any other love you feel in your life, even for your husband/partner. You only get to access that and feel it when you have you a child.

Ok enough of the mushy stuff. Recently when I did the first week of my baking apprenticeship, the head baker was commenting on the fact that myself and one of the other women (who also has small children) never stopped and worked like demons until everything was done and that we completed everything in about half the time the others did. We smiled knowingly (he is expecting his first child) and just said informed him we're working mums, we never stop and just keep going whatever until its all done and at some point in the distant future we might get to sit down and have 5 minutes peace and quiet to ourselves.

[Lazy Mummy]

KM & KLP - agreed (though not about the puke in public, thank goodness).

A life with children is rarely one of quiet desparation, more one of organised chaos and millions of fun, loving moments where your heart bursts with love, pride, joy and all those other slushy gushing emotions.

In other words, we parents have the last laugh.

[KM]

I couldn't put it better, Kappa: exhausted but happy.
That's me too.

[kappalovespi]

do you know i think i could count on one hand the number of times ive actually got to go to the toilet alone in the past 3 yrs, ive been peed on, crapped on, accidentally eaten baby vomit and been puked down so badly in a public place it drenched my clothes and underwear and call me mental but i flippin love it. yes trotting around my kitchen for hours pretending to be my dd's pet horse can get slightly tedious but never have i been more blessed than to have such innocence, honesty, wit and humour and total all encompassing love in my life. so what i cant remember sleeping a whole night or actually spending any significant money on myself, i got to see another human being take their very first breath and get to witness their growing, learning and embracing life, a treasure if ever there was one.

[Lucy]

Btw, KM, I love how your comment below appears as a little poem in sarcasm, with its perfectly regular lineation!

[Lucy]

'I'm not sure I want to be 'completed as a woman' (then what happens? you take the rest of your life off?)' - Oh, that made me snigger gleefully! Thanks, First Timer. I also like CM's phrase, 'now I've made a child who's nearly four feet tall', which sounds wonderfully as if she's equating motherhood with papier-mache making.

I'm probably horribly old fashioned, but I've always had a comfortable sense that, for me, having children would be a desirable part of life. I enjoy the part of a serious relationship where you start surreptitiously dropping comments about putative youunglings, and so on. And I lack driving career ambition to an almost embarrassing degree, so I'm not currently in a position to worry about what wonderful things I might never do.

I do find it quite strange, and upsetting, that mums so often seem to need (both for themselves and in response to other people) to justify themselves, as if no one really believes that bringing up a child is proper work. My mum, who was a SAHM when we were little, has a doctorate and currently teaches adults with learning difficulties, is forever feeling guilty that she 'didn't do anything with her life'. That seems to be quite a common, if extreme, worry. It's not a healthy society we live in, is it?

[KM]

Why, how nice of you to drop by, Shoshanna.
I'm sure we all feel encouraged by your words.

[Shoshanna]

Entirely by chance, I happened across your blog and read this post with interest. It inspired me to once again thank God for my early realization that I never wanted children-- between the horrific financial burden, the continual emotional drain, and the complete surrender of one's time, space, and energy, it sounds to me like a circle of hell worthy of Dante.

While I wish you all the luck in the world-- and it sounds as if you're going to need it-- I will be very happy to continue pursuing my own interests with passion and freedom, living with financial security in a paid-off, oceanfront house in a beautiful place, being able to travel on a whim and take off for the theater or an art exhibit without a second thought, and enjoy the wonderful company of creative, well-educated, interesting adults, who will never bring into a conversation the argument of "cloth vs. disposable."

When Thoreau wrote that most men lead lives of quiet desperation, I believe he could just as easily have been speaking of mothers. Forgive me for saying so, but Good lord, what an awful way to live!

[KM]

P.S, Agree about the otter reference. But what is it with the poo?

[KM]

"We start our scary senior jobs when we are older and wiser and tougher all round"

PLEASE keep telling me that J. I so want a scary senior job. One day.

[cat]

The otter reference is probably the best description of a small baby I have ever read.

[j]

heh heh Caitlin. So true and now we know what our mothers were on about when they said, you wait till you have children. It really does kickstart us into being adults. And yes, I am not sure if we finally realise that other people are only human, or if we only mix with other sleep-deprived inadequates, or a mixture, but people do seem less glossy.

I havent lost my fear though, its got worse. A child was nearly brained two minutes ago when the huge Victorian porcelain cistern fell off the wall. This is what comes of teaching them to flush.

Surely you will still win the nobel prize and be CEO? I think it is the little known benefit of the career break- we start our scary senior jobs when we are older and wiser and tougher all round.

[First timer]

Actually I find this quite encouraging. One thing I really want to do on my 'career break' is finish my degree, and one of my biggest fears is that this just won't be possible; but surely the super-enhanced time management skills will make it a breeze. And while I'm not sure I want to be 'completed as a woman' (then what happens? you take the rest of your life off?), I do think having children is going to be a really exciting, challenging thing to do.

[KM]

Oh dear. (KM examines her psyche mournfully).
Brilliant article, again.

[Maddilion]

Excellent, the jury's is still out on whether we have children, but reading the otter snippet aloud and watching his eyes fill with horror - I think we have just postponned it again! He adores his niece and nephew and will spend hours playing with them, but also loves handing them back to his brother too.
I am also of the school that if you have children to complete you or your relationship, there is something fundamentally wrong with your psyche first.