Are our expectations of giving birth unreasonable?

You had the home birthing plan, the pool installed, the aromatherapy oils to hand and your breathing exercises perfected. But then two hours in, an ambulance was called and your karmic birthing experience totally disrupted as you were wheeled into theatre to have a Caesarean section.

Disappointed, would you tell your midwife what for, or even worse, attack her?

A news in brief story in today's Times reveals that more than half of NHS midwives say they've been verbally abused, and that one in twenty had been assaulted. The report from the Royal College of Midwives said this was because women often had unrealistic expectations of the pain and risks involved in giving birth.

Breedagh Hughes, a former midwife and Royal College of Midwives board secretary from Belfast was quoted in The Times this morning saying: “Women now typically have only one or two children and they expect them, and their births, to be perfect."

Who are these women who have not been informed that childbirth is painful? Are you one of them?

Comments

[LM]

Well, Eluned, you can do the smoking & drinking woo-woo I can do what I want with my body thing again when # 6 has been weaned. :)

Ta for sympathy (and to MM - had heard about pumpkin seeds, but not about protein in large amounts). Yes, we've seen various doctors & alternative practitioners, have identified a couple of minor issues & a lot of stress and have given up all our vices (not that we had many left anyway) so we'll see what happens. Perhaps it just isn't meant to be - but in the meantime, are worth a try.

[madge]

"I suspect, however, that my lovely experience was mainly due to 2 very good epidurals. My, obviously subjective and personal, view is that given that we no longer expect people to have an appendix removed (or similar) without pain relief why on earth should we be expected to give birth without it? The technoglogy exists to have happy, pain free deliveries - and hurrah for that. If men gave birth they'd never advocate 'breathing' in lieu of a local anaesthetic!"

I have three children: all induced as overdue. First was born after 24 hours, 3 hours second stage, with epidural, episiotomy (sp?) & foreceps as close as is possible to a c-section without actually having one. Second one had a second stage timed at 3 mins, no pain relief at all (no time!). Third was very similar to second, but slightly slower and with gas & air for the second stage of about 15-20 mins.

If you'd ask me after first, I would have said epidurals are fantastic, it's like a switch, away goes the pain, best thing ever. However, I would say now that, despite being the scariest, for me no. 2 was the "best" because of the experience of my body being in control ( as well as being the one with the nicest midwife). With the epidural I was told to push by the midwives looking at the monitor: with the others I understood "uncontrollable urge to push" and the natural rythym and pauses of giving birth and it was fantastic. Probably the unmediated endorphin rush at the end also helped!

So now I would say that epidurals certainly have their place esp in long labours. I do not think I could have got through no. 1 without it. However, in my experience epidurals have disadvantages in terms of taking away some or all of the feedback about what your body is doing. I would certainly take the feedback with bearable pain option over the pain-free but no feedback option any time: but would also choose pain-free option if faced with the prospect of hours of pain that I could not bear.

[Eluned]

I'll try the ginger thing, I've been eating ginger biscuits but don't think that's the same!

Thanks for the reassurance Luce. I'm not really worried or anything, I'm just not the sprite slip of a thing I was 17 years ago when I had Llion. I don't feel old but I do feel forty which, all things considered, is quite old to be having a baby.

Told the Persian in laws the news last night and they're on their way over now. Eeps. I have a lot of tidying to do and a lot of children to scrub! :]

[Gipsy]

Congrat's Eluned!

I wasn't at all worried about having a home birth or a hospital birth, but hubs was dead keen on hospital. His first son, from a previous relationship, wasn't breathing when first born and that was a really traumatic experience for him.

My birth plan was to not rule anything out. I wish I had prepared better for a C though. I didn't think I would have one for some reason, but wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened. It was not a pleasant experience, and it meant that I was kept in hospital for five days, which was far far far too long.

My family doesn't do home births, for some strange reason. My grandmother had all 13 of hers at home - maybe that put the kids off especially those that were older and present at the births? Who knows!

I think my mum had the best option - she had all six of her kids in a maternity home rather than a hospital. A nice half way compromise. It gave her a break from home, but wasn't rigid with routines and rules and overbearing staff. So my dad was able to be present as well (not bad for the 60s). Plus it was next to the high school, so the older brothers and sisters and my cousins could all come visit the younger additions before and after school (they all remember this because they got to eat the chocolates!).

On infertility - well, it took us 5 years to have baby 1, and frankly it doesn't look like I'll be having number 2 but I don't mind. I'm still surprised to be a mother at all - I had no maternal instincts till I reached my thirties!

[Lucy]

Eluned, may I say, you are not even close to the oldest mummy-to-be that I've known, and they've all be fine! (Just saying because you seem a little conscious of the age thing).

Crystallised ginger is good if you feel sick, btw, and if you're one of those who stay sick all the way through, better than mint tea when you get 'baby on bladder' syndrome.

Take care!

[Eluned]

Awh, thanks everyone! :]

I feel fine, ta. A bit seasick, tired in the day and restless at night but nothing unusual. I actually stopped smoking in April, LM, not a conscious decision or anything I just haven't felt like it. I wouldn't smoke when pregnant though, it depletes your nutrients and you need all the goodness you can get when there's two of you to nourish! I gave up the first time about five months before my wedding because I didn't want any toxins in my body should I conceive. I wouldn't have started smoking again if I knew I was going to have a sixth, I only took it up again last December when my fifth stopped nursing and I was certain I wasn't going to have another as I was starting to get grey hair in places I never even thought about getting grey hair, ahem. To tell you the truth I was sad to stop breastfeeding but thought, y'know, I might as well enjoy the relative freedom having my body completely to myself gave me and started getting v.v. drunk and smoking lots in a woo I can do what I want for the rest of my life kinda thing. Turned out to be shortlived. haha.

Sorry to hear about your troubles conceiving! I don't mean to pry but do you know the reason why you're having problems and have you been trying long? Lots of my friends and one of my cousins who are opposed to conventional fertility stuff were helped greatly by the FertilityCare programme from LifeUK. Miracles happen! And I'm sure if you've already had a baby it's just a matter of time.

Huge congrats Eluned! I am also up duff - number 3 due early dec. I'm really looking forward to all of it, including the birth.

My first 2 were helped by lovely, warm, helpful midwives. I also - spookily - rather relished the feeling of not being in control, as, being a total control freak, this was a really novel experience for me.

I suspect, however, that my lovely experience was mainly due to 2 very good epidurals. My, obviously subjective and personal, view is that given that we no longer expect people to have an appendix removed (or similar) without pain relief why on earth should we be expected to give birth without it? The technoglogy exists to have happy, pain free deliveries - and hurrah for that. If men gave birth they'd never advocate 'breathing' in lieu of a local anaesthetic!

[MM]

In contrast with the 'how not to get pregnant' blog, LM, it could well be nonsense, but I was told by a nurse at a fertility clinic to get my husband eating pumpkin seeds and for me to eat a high protein diet. I don't know if it was the diet that worked, but number three did come along, before resorting to handstands after sex - me, not my husband.

[LM]

Eluned,

Congrats, lovely news for you. Of course, I'm insanely jealous as don't seem to be able to get to #2, let alone beyond, but very happy for you (lots of my friends are having 1st or 2nd children at 40, doesn't seem to be problematic for them, so I think that having been successful the other times, you'll be fine this time too).

Hope you're feeling well and getting all the rest you need (hahahaha with 5 others to look after). Just out of interest - do you stop smoking while pregnant (that's not meant as a dig, just curious remembering discussions a while ago).

[Lucy]

Thanks, Jane2. I'm going to ponder a little, but don't think I'm ignoring you while I go silent.

[Jane2]

Lucy
re previous post, email probably inappropriate (privacy considerations) - I have now set up my own blog, it is called ableblog-sensibilia.blogspot.com
Feel free to place literary discussions and any other chatty stuff on there!

[j]

back from hols I will add to the congratulations for Eluned!

On anxiety, someone posted that it was all about avoiding situations that make you anxious. Of course, in childbirth that's almost impossible- you have the hospital, midwife, doctor that you have and you have no options about changing your mind and not giving birth.

As I remember, on axiety managemetn its about the analysis- what can I change and what can I not change? and what is plan B if plan A falls flat? What I am seeing in these posts is a real fear that nobody will pay attention or listen- a fear of disastrous communication. Maybe a birth plan ought to focus as much on communication as on specifics of planning the event?

First births are awful beforehand as you have literally no idea how much it will hurt, subsequent ones were less scary for me even though no 1 was by far my least successful birth in terms of time (28 hours) and interventions.

[Ingerid]

On the good Scandinavian statistics - home birth in Scandinavia, was common up to the 1960s and then had a comeback from the 1990s. But being a mother from a Scandinavian country and having lived in the UK with children, I can certainly support and understand the statistics that indicate that countries where women have a high status in society do "better on births", so to speak. While birth, pre- and postnatal care seem to sort under "women's issues" in the UK, in Scandinavia they are perceived as issues vital to society. UK society is by comparison neither child nor woman-friendly. But there is hope - attitudes in Scandinavian countries have changed immensely ony since 1980 or 1990.

[Jane2]

Thanks Lucy. Yes, I am interested in female voices, not just the Paston females (though weren't they formidable!) Until Alphamummies, so many female voices simply went unheard... Their interests (childbirth, pain and so on) just didn't matter to the men in command.
Would you care to email me the details of the lyrics you mention on jane.saunte@yahoo.co.uk Thanks

[Lucy]

Hey Jane2, lovely to hear from you. I did see you on the other blog and appreciated your comment, btw! (I always have a strange sense of wasting precious academic time if I go too off-topic there, on account of the posts being vetted before they're put up, or I'd have been chattier). Are the Paston Letters your thing? I ought to know more about them, actually. At the moment I'm doing the Pearl-poet's stuff, which has an incredibly unsympathetic female character or two, but if you want interesting female voices in medieval, look at the lyrics. I think some of them are possibly female-authored and very interesting re. Mary. But I ramble...

Delilah - I just meant that it seemed to me one could make all sorts of comparisons with animals, but they are just that - comparisons. I don't much like the idea of holding up an image of 'natural' birth over women unless they themselves find it helpful. Personally, I'd be pissy about someone comparing me to an animal in labour! But I do agree with you that hospital births sound terrifyingly clinical at times.

[Kim]

Eluned - forgot to say: Congratulations! Or Llongyfarchiadau! Great news.

Also wanted to add that I thought the key line in Kelly's comment about her caesarean was 'Calm, friendly faces and lots of smiles'. To me, the attitude of staff makes a huge difference. Even a difficult birth can be bearable if staff treat you kindly and pleasantly. I had a long labour but I was helped enormously by the fact that the obstetrician and two midwives who finally delivered me (after goodness knows how many midwives on different shifts) were lovely, competent, friendly women.

[Katharine]

"So I don't have a problem with women throwing their weight around and not being grateful for the crumbs offered by their local obs and gyn and midwifery departments. If anything, it sounds like we need to be a lot more demanding."

Hear hear!

[Kim]

Caroline: "Only people who idealize childbirth as some perfect, magical experience or who have prepared birth plans (what an oxymoron!) in minute detail are likely to suffer from what you call 'trauma'."

And you know this because...?

[Jane2]

Lucy: I've been looking out for you on the other blog, thought I might find you on here. Are you going back to your postgraduate work in Cb soon?
Would be interested to know which medieval texts you're poring over; have recently been reading a translation of the Paston letters, am wondering if the originals are less sanitised. How do the women come over, in the original rather than the (translated by men) popular version?
Eluned: congratulations! how lovely that you shared your news with the Alphamummies!

[Delilah]

Lucy, I'm confused. Humans are not like cats or cows, but they are like mares?

I'm not suggesting that women in childbirth should be ignored, but that complications would probably drop if hospitals did not routinely ignore the very primitive reflexes that govern the process of birth in all mammals, including humans. Imagine being expected to do a poo under a spotlight in the middle of Victoria Station cheered on by a chap with a stopwatch and you'll appreciate why labours slow down and often stop altogether in hospital. And whether you're dealing with cats, dogs, mares, chickens, or rabbits, whipping them out of their nests onto a brightly-lit table - even if you don't shout at and bully them - brings on such an adrenaline reaction that labour usually stops completely, sometimes permanently. Cervixes will close around pups that have partially entered the birth canal; pups will sometimes be pulled back into the uterus because the message the primitive brain picks up - in the same way as we react unreasonably to a loud noise - is that the mother may have to run for her life. This can be fatal for an animal with a small head and a roomy pelvis - how much worse for humans - but we do it to almost every woman who opts for a hospital birth. No wonder some midwives get sworn at.

Incidentally, I've not been able to throw much light on the historically low rates of perinatal deaths in Scandinavia, but the WHO expressly links it to high female status resulting in excellent standards of care before, during and after labour. So I don't have a problem with women throwing their weight around and not being grateful for the crumbs offered by their local obs and gyn and midwifery departments. If anything, it sounds like we eed to be a lot more demanding.

[Lucy]

Delilah, humans are not like cats or cows. We are unfortunate in that we are badly designed to give birth, especially if we prefer a small number of live births per woman (and we do prefer this), rather than a large number of pregnancies resulting many fetal and maternal fatalities. Mares, like us, struggle to give birth and often require intervention. It is true that hospital births are not ideal, but the analogy you make with animals is not helpful, I think.

[Caroline]

Kim: Only people who idealize childbirth as some perfect, magical experience or who have prepared birth plans (what an oxymoron!) in minute detail are likely to suffer from what you call 'trauma'. The reality is that childbirth is and always has been a painful, chaotic and oftentimes damned dangerous business.

Perhaps I just know too many people (two) who have lost babies during childbirth (both due to eclampsia). That is traumatizing, and leaves lifelong scars. Being screamed at during labor or left alone (as long as not medically dangerous) is no comparison.

BTW I do speak from experience. The 16 hours before my daughter was finally born were horrific. But as soon as it was over, I was over it.

[Kelly]

Throughout my pregnancy I was utterly terrified at the thought of giving birth. Not so much the pain (although I can't say I relished the thought) more the uncertainty of what would happen, the thought of others seeing me
in such a vulnerable state and of being out of control. After much worrying and drawing up a ridiculously detailed birth plan, at 37 weeks I found out that my baby was breech. I am not ashamed to say that I was OVER THE MOON to be told I could have an elective c-section. My birth plan forgotten, I walked into the hospital the day I was due to give birth with no greater a worry than whether I bought big enough knickers for the immediate post-partum period. Staff were amazing (thank you, RVI Newcastle) and my recovery - whilst painful at times - went without a hitch. My memories of the birth itself are wonderful. Calm, friendly faces and lots of smiles . For me, it was the perfect birth. Do I feel like I am somehow 'unwomanly' or that I have missed out on an amazing experience by not giving birth 'naturally'? Not on your nelly.

[Delilah]

According to the WHO, EU birth trauma (especially brain injuries like cerebral palsy) and perinatal mother and baby mortality stats have fallen precipitously from the 70s, despite birth rates falling almost as fast (so as others have pointed out a larger proportion of them being more-difficult first births). So Yasmin and others, your chances have never been better for a successful outcome - healthy mother, healthy baby.

On the other hand, I'm intrigued to note that current EU rates have reached the low rates which Nordic countries have maintained since before the 70's. I suspect the Nordic countries got their results through excellent PREnatal and POSTnatal care, and having babies at home unless there is a good reason to go to hospital (picked up through the excellent prenatal care). I would love someone else with more time/expertise to confirm or debunk this.

If you ask a vet how to care for a pet in labour, they will recommend allowing them to CHOOSE a warm, DARK, CONFINED nesting place and NOT DISTURBING THEM AT ALL during labour unless they are in obvious difficulty; so it seems obvious to me that standard hospital conditions are likely to make even a normal labour more difficult; a good reason to encourage properly-supported home births.

Would also be interested to know how the UK stats compare with the EU-wide ones.

(That was me, Eluned, and I was apologising for having a go on the birth control thread - but clearly since my computer isn't letting me sign my name, there was no need ...)

Lucy