Pubgoers who dislike children should get over themselves

I've resisted blogging about the story this week about an increasing number of complaints about children in pubs, mainly because this kind of story inevitably leads to harrumphing about kids taking over the world. "No longer can one enjoy an adult evening without feeling that one is dining in a crèche," one pubgoer told the Good Pub Guide. Cue commentary like this piece from the Guardian where a dad of two argues that pubs should be dark places where grown-ups (well, men) nurse pints in contemplative silence.

Naturally the problem is with parents who don't discipline their children, are insensitive to others around them and don't give a toss about the social contract. But these parents and their children are unbearable everywhere - in the supermarket, at Pizza Express, even in the playground. (They're the ones watching as their child pushes your child off the climbing frame.)

Besides, bad behaviour in pubs is hardly restricted to the under 12s. If we're considering banning folks who intrude on our self-determined "pub experience", I'd like to suggest we also ban men who refer to themselves in the third person, groups of girls who squeal with laughter, people who talk to much about real estate prices, old men who go on and on about how children ruin everything and Australians, because they can get pretty trolleyed and start calling everyone "mate".

It's ironic that publicans are looking to banish children, considering the grim news that 36 pubs close their doors every week across the country, leaving many villages without a local. Coming from the States, I love concept of the local. A place you pop into for a pint, a juice, a Sunday lunch; where you run into friends and greet the barmen and barwomen by name. We have more than half a dozen pubs near our house, almost all of whom "allow" children. Yet just as every restaurant doesn't have the same atmosphere, every pub doesn't have the same feel. We visit only a few as a family - that ones that make us feel truly welcome. If we want a child-free environment, we go to the one that's recently decked itself out with silver foil wallpaper or the one with the thudding bass track.

After all, initiating your children into the ritual of popping to the pub for a drink and a packet of crisps is a lovely way to carry on the pub-going tradition. They don't have to eat dinosaur-shaped chicken nuggets to enjoy a walk down the road, conversation with their parents and perhaps a bit of colouring. If patrons are ruining the environment for others - whether they're 19-year-olds on their fifth pint or a family of five - they should be taken in hand and that's management's responsibility.

The pubs that have thrown off the Victorian attitudes about children are the ones we enjoy the most, and a lot of other families agree. They don't end up as playground free-for-alls. Instead, the kids play in the garden, or read their book or talk to the other children. The adults chat, lend each other extra napkins for a spill, step in to prevent quarrels.

Sounds like a great place to go on a weekend to me.

My favourite pubs to take the kids:

The Herne (pictured) - opposite Peckham Rye park, has a conservatory area and a back garden including a small climbing frame and a friendly atmosphere among the patrons. 2 Forest Hill Road (Corner of St Aidens Road), East Dulwich, London SE22 0RR

The Leather Bottle - a pub in SW London with a good-sized parking lot and a big garden. No children allowed inside last I checked, but perfect for sitting outside at a picnic table on a warm day. 538 Garratt Lane, Tooting, London, SW17 0NY

And one that we visit without them:

Balham Bowls Club - a converted bowling club with the original bar, old scorecards and mismatched furniture along with an eclectic mix of locals. 7-9 Ramsden Road, Balham, SW12 8QX         

Got any family-friendly pubs you love?

A pub suggestion from a poster:

Wendy V posted this family-friendly pub on the Isle of Wight: The Wight Mouse Inn, Chale. "I often take my six year old to The Wight Mouse Inn, which has a large garden with sea views and a good play area, plus an indoor soft play room (separate from the main building)."

(Picture: the garden at The Herne)

Comments

[Andrew Munn]

I'm sure that all my thoughts against kids in pubs have been stated very eloquently here.

I have lived & worked overseas for many years now, so maybe my comments are a bit less valid.

However, if I were unfortunate enough to live in the UK again, I wouldn't be spending twenty quid a (every) night in the pub, as I used to.

The smoking ban/pubs etc is just another part of our culture that Blair & co have ridden rough-shod over!

[Martin]

Sod pubs, if you can't stop your kids from screaming in public you shouldn't take them out in it full stop.

[Adey]

Its simple - pubs are not the place for kids to play, scream, fight and run about. Many parents refuse to get their kids to sit quietly in pubs. I especially have a dislike for parents who think their kids are 'indigo' and should be free to always express their creativity.

[aubrey leahy]

Dear Castor.
Closing any day?
sounds like a load of old Pollux to me.........

[Mohclips]

Well how about pubs that don't take dogs anymore !??

Leave the kids outside, my dogs are much more well behaved than 99% of the kids i've seen in pubs.

Well behaved kids shows good parenting which gets my respect. :) Pity nowadays not many parents get my respect. :(

[Kat]

'..men who refer to themselves in the third person, groups of girls who squeal with laughter, people who talk to much about real estate prices, old men who go on and on about how children ruin everything and Australians, because they can get pretty trolleyed and start calling everyone "mate".'

Why would you want to take your children to pubs if it's filled with such people?

[fabbi]

I have lived in England for three years, and visited it many times. English people are not particularly fond of children. More demanding than gardening, more expensive too, children demand giving up on many aspects of our life in order to make them grow in safety, warmth and a sense of dignity. If more of all these would be granted to most English children, less English adults would be in need of so much alcohol. Some rural pubs are great family places, but,of course, they function more like restaurants, less like drinking dens.

[fi]

Its fascinating reading. I have a 2 year old a 7 year old and a 9 year old. I take them to pubs occasionally on a sunny afternoon, sometimes a sunny evening mostly outside and never after 7. They learn how to behave in public without infringing on adult time. Parents who take children into pubs after this time need stringing up. What child would truly choose to spend the time sitting in a boring old pub full of adults. Take them home and do something they enjoy. Then, when you've had enough and are kiddied up, get a baby sitter and go out for a grown up evening in a childless pub. Its not treating the children as second class citizens, its all about balance.

[Franziska]

Children in restaurants at any time of the day: fine. Children in pubs after 8pm: not fine. It's just not the place to be for kids.

[Hannah]

I don't yet have children of my own, but I remember my childhood. On fine evenings, we often as a family walked to one of our local pubs*, and sit outside, enjoying the modest playground or learning to sit and talk with the adults.

The key to that story is "fine evenings" - my parents were careful to ensure that we would be able to be outside, where we would not bother any "serious drinkers" but would also be able to play if we so desired.
We were generally accompanied by my uncle and aunt and their children, making four children in all.
We amused ourselves, and NEVER went inside, until we were old enough to help carry drinks (and then only with supervision).
And we were home and in bed at a reasonable hour (again, with parents)

The lesson is, as Jason wisely points out, one of common sense. With responsible parenting and a bit of thought, there is no reason why children shouldn't learn to socialise with adults in public, without being a nuisance.

But then of course the root of the problem is those parents who do not know how to behave themselves.

*PS the pub in question was the Tafarn y Trap, Swansea Road, Gorseinon

[Jon]

I was taught as a child

"Children should be seen and not heard"

There are appropriate and inappropriate places (pubs) to take children. Unfortunately there are too many parents in the UK who cannot distinguish between the former and the latter.

[Johno]

Maybe I should expand a bit. I am immensely considerate to pregnant women, the elderly and, generally, anyone in need or distress. Having a family may at times cause distress in your life as would your job, your spouse, life partner or your team letting you down. (Do we all get to act as if we were the first person to have a bad day at the office when we encounter the rest of the human race as we head home)? Obviously, there are degrees of importance, but the attitude that drives me crazy is from the parent that views their children as an affliction for which we all need to extend a level of courtesy (or tolerance) usually afforded someone that actually genuinely needs a hand - the aforementioned pregnant lady on the stifling hot tube, the elderly lady on that same train or, dare I say it, the bloke who's having trouble finding a taxi because he drank too much to blind himself to the couple sitting in his pub with their three darling, yet noisy little tykes railing on about Thomas the Tank while he's trying to watch a game and have a few pints with the boys. And, at what point did I say that I don't have kids?

[Rose Byrne]

I grew up in a country where kids were banned from the pubs. So what did the kids do while their parents were at the pub, got into trouble playing out on the streets! Safer in that out I'd say!

[Rose Byrne]

I grew up in a country where kids were banned from the pubs. So what did the kids do while their parents were at the pub, got into trouble playing out on the streets! Safer in that out I'd say!

[tsk]

On a brighter note, whilst I was pregnant I also saw just how kind strangers can be. An eye-opener all round, in fact!

[Whimsey]

TSK - despite what I've just said, I have to say I've personally yelled at a man who wasn't giving up his seat - a 'reserved' one too, on a tube train! - to a heavily pregnant woman with a toddler in tow too. It didn't help, I feel, that the woman was black, but the man was white.... (I was standing myself, I hasten to add, so had no seat to give up.)

[Whimsey]

Johno, you raise a tough but interesting point. We have a 'general rule' in society of 'women with children first' so to speak - ie, there's a general acknowledgement that looking after babies and young children is exhausting work, and so we 'cut some slack' for those who do it.

BUT we cut the slack on the 'general premise' that 'one day' it's US who are going to be the parents, or, conversely, us who have been those parents. ie - it's something that we offer to those in that situation, because we know that we'll in it too, or hve been in it. For that reason, I'm usually pretty 'helpful' to mums with buggies etc, because I know how challenging (euphemism!) it was for me to cope with daily life with a toddler in tow.

BUT, I can see that, if you never have children, it's quite understandable not to have that 'vested interest' in being considerate to parents with children, as you are never going to need to call on your share of returned-considerateness, or never have called on it. You are, basically, out of the 'kiddy loop' and so have no reason to be tolerant of parents requiring extra slack, whether it's space in an aisle or the one spare seat going, etc.

It's different, I feel, from the general rule that says 'be considerate of old people' because (hopefully!) one day we'll all be old, and we'll want to live in a world where people are considerate of our frailties and slowness, so there is something in it for us too, in being considerate to existing old people.

[tsk]

Johno's attitude is ghastly, but not unusual. I saw it often in those who would slip ahead of me to bag the last seat on the bus whilst I was heavily pregnant and holding the hand of my one-year-old.

[Johno]

I love children but I hate parents. I particularly hate the parent who thinks that the sheer act of becoming a parent entitles them to special allowances because the have blessed us all with their procreation. Because you have children does not entitle you to the only vacant seat at an airport waiting terminal - you must rush to get to it first like the rest of us. It does not entitle you to being able to dump your child on some poor unsuspecting friend, acquaintance or family member at the Sunday afternoon BBQ because "you need a break." And, it certainly doesn't entitle you to be able to go everywhere you went before you had children because "life shouldn't change when you have children." It does. It does change when you have children. It is damn rude to block an aisle with a stroller. It is damn rude to shush a bloke for saying f off when he is out having a pint with his rugby mates after the game. And it is damn rude to think, just because you have to live with them, the rest of us do to.

I am 23 now but my dad always took us to the pub. We would go with a big group of his friends who all had children the same age. We went during a hike/walk in the country and often had lunch or even just a drink and snack to refresh us for the walk home. We would never have been allowed to run around causing problems as our parents were quite strict about manners etc. These pubs usually had gardens and the parents weren't drunk. They probably had one pint (the men were very interested in good beer).
Since I am old enought to go to the pub on my own wtih friends I have never had a quiet drink ruined by children. I live in London so perhaps that is the difference. The pubs/bars I go to now and the time I go out mean that there are no children in them, even the ones that have a restaurant. I agree witht eh people who say that perhaps landlords should step in if there is a problem and if there isn't and the kids are well behaved then yes get over yourself or go somewhere else. I really don't see what most people are complaining about. (by the way don't have kids and not planning them for some time to come!)

[Bob D Buider]

The fact is adults like going to pubs, when they don't have children they generally don't want kids in pubs. When they have children, they want to carry on going to the pub so they decide that kids should now be allowed. I've seen this happen with many of my friends.

[Brit in Aus]

I agree that kids should not be in pubs. Why? The simple reason is I am 28 and every one I know (including me)has been drunk in a licenced place. I just dont think that it is a good image to give our kids, saying this is how you have fun.

[Holly]

It isn't just a case of badly behaved children but children enroaching on an adult atmosphere, whether it be playing, singing or crying (babies don't know they are 'behaving badly'). To those who don't have children and can apprecaite how sweet and lovely they can be (you have to have them to know this)they are just irritating. A screaming baby in a pub is never good. Adult noise is easier to block out.

[Caroline]

It's badly behaved children that are a problem, if they are seen and not heard it quite acceptable, Park them in the corner facing the wall for several hours and no one has any objections.

Letting them run around screaming, throwing toys around, blocking the walk ways with push chairs and every conversation being interrupted by a child starting to wail has made me leave a pub before.

Like others have said if I want to speak to my friends and respond with the comment that contains references to sex/swearing.......I don't want to be told off by a parent for saying it infront of their little Wayne or Waynette.

Ban them all until they are 14 and then only with a meal in a seperate dining room. At 18 they can join the rest of the populace as adults.

[Emma]

I've got to the stage of walking out of anywhere with kids in them due to lack of good parenting. It's a pub not a playground! Kids running around, screaming, slamming chairs/tables/cutlery is not my idea of a day out. Parents should remember to parent and to teach their children the social construct of how to behave outwith the house. That also means not standing trying to reason with them by bribery - pull them away from the danger/annoyance not tell little petal they will get something if you do it - mum has told you to do it you do it!