Why don't we trust dads?

When Guy Ritchie met his children at the airport this week, he reportedly didn't just receive hugs and kisses. He also got a list from Madonna's PA of do's and don'ts for the kids during their stay. These supposedly included eating only macrobiotic, vegetarian, organic food; not watching any TV or DVDs or reading any newspapers ("No FT? Aww, mum!") and drinking only Kabbalah water.

Whether you believe she set out these strictures depends on how much you trust the Daily Mail. But Ritchie and Madonna just separated weeks ago (although in media time, that already feels like years). Before that he was presumably living with the kids and looking after them as usual. (For a while there it seemed that all pictures of the couple showed Madonna out and about in the adult world while Guy was pushing Rocco on a bicycle and otherwise being daddy.) So why does he need a list of the responsibilities he fulfilled before then?

It's not just an academic celebrity question. Most couples I know have tension in their relationships when dad takes over and mums tries to stage direct from the wings. "They don't eat their spaghetti like that" or "That's not how she does her hair for school" or even "You're folding the towels wrong". Almost every dad I know has experienced it and every mum I know has guiltily admitted interfering, even though she knows it sets her partner's teeth on edge and that the kids will be fine even if dad does it a different way.

We've come a long way baby but we still don't treat dads the same, even in "equal" partnerships where both parents share the cooking, school run, disclipline and playtime. Inevitably when Dad looks after Junior, he's "giving mum a break" or "babysitting". When Mum does it, it justs her job.

Sometimes this translates into bestowing a "good dad award" on any man who deigns to wipe a nose or change a nappy. But other times it grows out of mothers not wanting to step aside (and perhaps lose their vaunted place of house CEO and martyr-number-one?) and let fathers do it their way.

I know I'm guilty of "suggesting" that my husband feed the kids certain things (macrobiotic meals not included) or "advising" him on exactly the right kind of baby shampoo. But I'm trying to reign myself in. After all, he's a great dad without my interference, and besides, every CEO has got to delegate sometimes.

Comments

[Steven Kinch]

Everyone is different and so everyone's experience is different. I think it unfair to say that the father is always suspected of impropriety by the system.

In my case, it was just my ex-wife and her family who convinced themselves of wrongdoing in the face of a social services and police interview in which she was advised that there was no evidence of anything improper. She interpreted that as "there is not enough evidence to prosecute but something improper has definitely gone on".

5 months and £50,000 of legal fees on, I have been cleared by a Court and have frequent and good staying contact with my daughter. I never received an apology from my wife who is still able to convince herself that she was justified in what she did.

The point is that the system worked for me and I had the benefit of great lawyers, an attentive judge and an accusation for which there was no substantiating evidence.

[David Pritchard]

I just wonder... should Mum and Dad really be playing *exactly* the same roles, doing exactly the same things? Isn't there a need for parents to play good cop/bad cop roles to a certain extent? I'm not sure that works if each one worries to the same degree about towel-folding (besides that being an absolutely ridiculous thing to worry about; no wonder parents are so neurotic).

[Fola Yahaya]

The problem is the obvious inequity of parental leave.
A dad's paltry 2 wks off work pails into insignificance when compared to the intense bonding of 6 months maternity leave. We do like the swedes and make parental leave the same for both sexes.
We've got a poll on this running at www.londondad.com...pls vote

[Cinderella's Stepmom]

My husband's ex nearly convinced him to stop seeing his kids in the divorce. "All they need is your money, they are better off not seeing you, you can see them again when they are 18." She told him that.

Luckily he didn't give in.

What he did do was fight for years to stay a part of his daughter's lives. He had to contact the schools to be added to contact lists. He tried to get a court order - what a joke. The CAFCASS officer took at face value everything said by his ex-wife and said that for his daughter to see him would be 'cruel' and put her at risk and my husband should have only indirect contact.

When the children DID come to us, they came with lists of what they could do, where they could go (not to their cousins' house or we were threatened with court order), what they could eat, we had specific places we were allowed to go on holiday, etc. My husband ignored all of this but it rankled nonetheless.

They are older now and have told us that their mother always made fun plans for times they were supposed to be with dad. Like someone else said - no overnight stays equalled more money for her. she used to call them up at bedtime, tell them how much she was missing them and then when they got teary she would ask 'won't Daddy take you home now'. It was easier not to have them overnight. And more profitable for her.

She nearly destroyed in children in her attempt to destroy my husband.

I think it is terrible that it is allowed to go on. My husband got no support from anyone including the family courts.

[LINDA]

Martin- not all fathers want to have their children overnight. I fought for over 6 years to get my ex husband to have our 3 children overnight every other Saturday. He used to have them on a Saturday between 10 - 6pm. He finally succombed to 10am Sat - Sun 2pm. Now its Fri 5pm - Sun 6pm. He has plenty of room (5 bed house). He was the one to have an affair & yet I wasn't allowed out to socialise. In fact I've never had a fortnight holiday since my divorce & yet he regularly expects to take time off & I'm supposed to fit in with his holiday plans. Not all ex wives are selfish!

[MM]

It makes me sick when I think of what a lot of men are put through when they separate from their children's mother - I couldn't bare not seeing my children for days, and it's clear, that while progress is being made, it needs to be made faster. However, of all the dads I know, only a tiny percentage are particularly 'hands on' with their children. While in hospital having my 2nd child, my first 2 year old child was not fed at all, or bathed, until the afternoon because he hadn't asked. I do worry about the 'being run over by a bus' scenario.
Perhaps, the fact that all the men on this blog are commenting on how they want to be, or are, very hands on has something to do with the reason that they're on this blog in the first place. My other half wouldn't dream of bothering with it. I don't think it's fair to tar all women with the same brush in terms of being control freaks - many would willingly share the huge responsibility of looking after children.

[Morag]

As a woman who rails against "modern parenting" it appals me to see other women relish the role of personal slave to their children and excluding the fathers. We co-parented until my husband died, and he was the better parent, the one they came to in the night if they needed help.

But I have raised my children to be loving, self-reliant and thoughtful. And they DO think for themselves. Whether they eat sweets or are good teeth brushers seems to me to be not much to aim for.

My sons' pre school teacher said she would much rather have a curious and interested 3 year old still in nappies, than a child with perfect toilet and table manners, but nothing between the ears. It's mostly maternal parenting that does this, make no mistake.

[Martin]

I really would not wish want I went through on any man, but we need a really high profile father to suffer at the hands of our current family law system for everyone to appreciate the injustice of it all.

There is one point that I always raise on these blogs. A father's assessment for child maintenance is affected by the number of over-night visits he has with his children. The fewer the number of over-night visits, the more he pays. But who determines how frequently the children can stay with the father? The mother.

Ergo, when the mother prevents overnight visits, the father has to pay more child support. Hence, mothers are financially better off, preventing children and their fathers having overnight visits.

[More please]

Good to hear instead of the usual demonising of men. In the sixties I was a rather rare male feminist. Not any more. My experience does illustrate some of the inequalities about which we rarely hear. After a 2 year marriage I lost my money, house and business to my ex-wife and she prevented me from seeing my daughter and the law and society supported her. There was an implicit assumption that I was guilty of something. That's my point men are assumed guilty! In fact she was having an affair with my brother in law. After 20 years my daughter found me thankfully. After a longer second marriage I got the children. They refused to go with their mother and wrote letters to the judge but it was a fight. Even so she got the money leaving me with huge debts!! I then began to experience more everyday inequality. I was expected to work in the evening while women with children didn't; I wasn't allowed to take time off when they were sick; I was demoted by my female boss because I wouldn't be able to cope; the school run mums organised help for each other but seemed suspicious of me; shops and supermarkets didn't offer to help me as they did women with children; I was even quized as to my motives wanting to look after my children particularly my daughter! There wasn't a single support organisation for men. In my search I was bombarded with information directed at supporting women. The only support I could find was for classes teaching me how to stop beating my wife while I had been the victim of violence. The CSA couldn't grasp the situation but when they did they were brilliant and even took my ex to court. And all the time men are portrayed in ads as idiots and in the news as evil. Some research in the US showed that men are just as likely to be on the receiving end of domestic violence and women are many times more likely to physically abuse their children than men. How accurate this research is I don't know but it should make us question stereotypes. Certainly when all else failed my ex made allegations that would have put me in prison.
But we don't need a 'masculinist' organistion simply one that promotes equality and fairness for both genders based upon well researched facts.

[Alan]

Well said Chris

[Chris FP]

Astonishing; the human life span is so short (for the briefest second of the universes existence we are lucky enough to be alive) and we (UK/EU) are lucky to live in war free countries.

Furthermore we are lucky enough to have the precious gift of children who are actually going to get to grow up....and yet people on this forum seem to think that there is a correct way to fold up a towel?! Please get some perspective - divorce, illness, war, death are tragedies - who cleans a house in a certain way or what labels a company puts in its products are trivialities.

[Renourd]

Gosh it would be refreshing for one female poster to say, yes what Madonna is doing is terrible. But instead a litany of defenses proving many of the criticisms leveled. Mothers have come to view children as chattel to justify their inflated senses of self and narcissim. Not one women is grown enough to accept that feminsm as an ideology and quasi political construct that has many failings is a valid critique. So get over yourselves, many of you have become horrible stewards of society, are lousy mothers because you only think of yourselves and are incapable of beins self reflective or critical. Men have come a long way baby. We are even capable of self deprecating humor. Look at the population rates of Europe, and then ask why they are so low. Maybe, just maybe, a factor is the men have realized you are too unpleasant and self absorbed to be around, and more importantly, too unreliable to be entrusted with the most special gift- life. There I am done with my rant.

[colin baker]

I sat through months of patronising court sessions in which the judge and solictors laughed at my claims that I had been bringing up my son prior to our divorce. I did get joint residency but they ordered that my son lived with his mother. hes moved 5 times in the last 3 years and both schools he has been too have complained to me that he is always late often never turning up at all, he believes it is normal to blow his nose on a towel and that he is "in charge". usualy when i go to collect him at 10am he is still asleep, in the same bed as his mother sucking a dummy ...he is 6 years old ! the problem is the attitude of the government, the legal system and womens organisations who still think they can do it best. the shame is these patronising idiots are harming children with their stupid ideas including my son.

[Matt]

I recently left my partner after 7 years together. We have a four-and-a-half year old daughter together who is obviously the apple of my eye.

When we were together it was me who had the strongest bond with my daughter. Don't get me wrong, she loved her mother also but we do things differently (neither way is wrong by the way everybody has a different approach to everything). It was me she'd dance to after dance class but not her mother unless I held her hand. It was me who read her bedtime stories and who taught her the ABC. It was me she ran up to and hugged when we picked her up from somewhere.

Three months after splitting I haven't seen my little angel. I dread to think how long the legal battle will take as her mother does everything to stop a loving father see the daughter who called him her best friend. I tell you all something, I will not be listening to my ex when it comes to childcare advice. She told my little girl I was dead when I left (which I have recorded) and it is me who worried most about dangers and the like.

It is not mother's that are right, it is parents - on both sides. It is my belief that men and women genrally have different approaches - not because they are men and women but because they are different people. I believe it is this fact that actually allows a child with two parents to fully develop by seeing both sides and making their own decisions about which route on any particular topic to follow. It is an early way for a child to learn the skills of differentiating between different ideologies (obviously at a low level) and the fact they get both views is what makes them rounded people.

When I finally get my angel back in my life I'll be doing it my way.

[Cousin Jack]

My daughter comes to me when she has really hurt herself , say something like falling off her bike. The other stuff she goes to her mother.

My children realise that that we parent differently. I also think they see a degree of "value self inflation" from their mother.Perhaps a mirror of what is seen on TV....

[AR Shams]

My wife says often I am a very co-operative husband and father as well because she finds me do household heavy works e.g. moving the fridge or a heavy steel cupboard from one place to another on her desire.

She tells often her children and other relatives, friend and associates about my good qualities.

However, she says sometimes, "Darling, you have a bad habit that you talk too much."

I just smile and say, "Honey, you nag most often."

Notwithstanding, we are living happily since last 22 years and the children are learning from us the pattern of happy family living.

[nebby]

When I have my 4yr old daughter,my ex normally issues me with verbal instructions,I smile sweetly and say yes and then forget all about them,screw her! I have my daughters interests at heart just as much as her,shame she can't figure that out for herself.My daughter knows i'm a softer touch than her mother,women place far too much interest on the petty,unimportant things (e.g no coco pops for breakfast),and not enough on the genuinely important one's (a childs right to an unobstructed relationship with their father etc),hence the break down in society.

[AR Shams]

My spouse (wife) and I share each other's works. Some of the too heavy works that need stronger muscular strength I do myself even if she often insists to do them herself.

I learnt it from my father and grandfather as well.

[C.Elder]

The poor image of men/fathers is not just in ads.The BBC has ongoing anti-male propaganda in its programs.Can anyone name any positive heterosexual male role model on any show made by the BBC?In Eastenders,all the males are boozy,thieving,criminal,womanizing,
cheating,incompetent etc etc.While the women are heroic, misunderstood,unappreciated,loyal,
enduring,struggling etc etc.Every other BBC show underlines these themes relentlessly. Man=BAD;Woman=great!
Of course this may have something to do with the fact that all the senior program jobs at the BBC are occupied by women with an agenda.And thus apart from football,men do not generally watch anything on the BBC.

[Proud feminist]

If a feminist had her way there would be equity in parenting. It is not about the woman wanting to do it all herself with the father playing no role. That is not feminism at all, that is going back to the dark ages. If your wife/partner doesn't let you take care of the children it's not because she's a feminist, it's because she's NOT a feminist and still believes that childcare and housework are women's chores. The fact that men still believe this situation to be feminsim gone wrong means that feminism still has a loooong way to go!

[Smug Mum]

My husband likes to do things his way, and I have learned not to stand in his way, but to gently point out the error of his ways and then laugh smugly in his face when it all goes horribly wrong (as it always does) and remind him that I told him so.

Works well for us.

[LINDA]

My ex hubby once told me when I was pregnant with our first child that he wanted to leave the upbringing to me until the child was 16 & could hold an adult conversation. And he never lifted a finger to help feed,change,bath,play or read etc. My son is now 18 & my ex is now taking him an interest in him. My 2nd hubby is the opposite. He has taken an interest in our sons from day one - (as well as my elder children) - & takes an equal role in their upbringing. I must admit that occasionally I go to say something should be done a certain way but have learnt to shut up as I can see the pleasure on the faces of both children & hubby! When hubby is at work I do things my way!

[Mum to be]

Here, here Nick! I'm so glad to hear a dad say that he can't stand how all advertising concerning childcare is directed towards mothers. I have long thought that there must be many fathers and other relatives (other than mothers) who take primary responsibility for child raising who can't stand this trend. "That's why mothers shop at iceland...", "Only a mother would know...". How must it make people (children in particular) feel if they no longer have a mother? And are children whose fathers take care of them meant to feel odd because it's not their mother who buys the breakfast cereal or shops at Iceland? The culture of dads being alienated from childcare and family duties will not end until these types of practices are stopped!

[Steve Chapman]

I think what actually irks some women is that they realise that men can look after and have fun with their young children just as well as they can, and the kids are just as happy with dad. Its female insecurities rising to the surface

[FronOneWhoKnows!]

When the ex presents you with her first list along with the offspring for your first w/e, do one of 2 things :

1. Rip in up in front of her and drive off leaving her in your wake, or

2. Smile sweetly, nod, and thank her for being so thoughtful ... and as soon as you are in the car screw it up and put it in the recycle bin when you get home.

The latter option is probably safest and for the best, but the former is REALLY satisfying!