Do children actually know when they're sleepy?

As with most working parents, we have treated bedtime – along with broccoli-consumption – as an absolutely non-negotiable event. As we have to knock off huge swathes of work/housework/trying-to-have-a-relationship once the kids are asleep, no flexibility has ever been allowed into the routine, primarily out of fear. Kids are like sharks. Once they have tasted blood/been allowed to stay up until 10.30pm because “I’m not sleepy”, they will never go back to their old ways. Dora and Eavie – seven and five – have their bath at 7.45pm, story at 8.15pm and lights off at 8.30pm, no exceptions, I don’t care if you’re hungry, bagsy no returns. Even loosing one evening means that one of us, if not both of us, will be having to do a 2am shift later on in the week.
But recently, I’ve been starting to wonder if this firmness need go on forever. After all, I am starting to realise that whilst babyhood is about doing everything for a child, childhood is about teaching them to do everything for themselves. Dora, for instance, is a naturally skimpy sleeper, like her dad. They seem perfectly happy and functional on late nights and early mornings, whilst Eavie and I would, if left to our own devices, lie-in until 11am, and then preferable alert Room Service to our need for a bloody big tray full of toast.
But when Dora, at 8.40pm, goes, “I’m not sleepy yet – can I watch Hannah Montana on my iPod?”, I start shouting “NO NO GO TO SLEEP YOU’VE GOT A BIG DAY TOMORROW MUMMY’S GOT TO WORK GO TO SLEEP GO TO SLEEP I’ll give you extra pudding tomorrow if you go to sleep now GO TO SLEEP GO TO SLEEP!” But she often stays up until 10pm anyway, getting increasingly more fretful as I make her lie there, awake and bored out of her mind. “Just close your eyes and you’ll soon go to sleep,” I say, but that is actually a lie. She rarely does. Poor thing.
So recently, I’ve been thinking I should allow her to manage her own bed time. Surely, she is old enough now to recognise if she is sleepy or not, and to quietly watch a bit of TV/read/listen to music until she drops off? But then, the old fear kicks in. What if she goes on some insane Charlie & Lola bender, gets totally wired, goes all Fear & Loathing In Crouch End, and doesn’t drop off until 6.55am? What if we lose a night?

Comments

[Sho]

M-o-T - the nap thing is one of the reasons I'm very glad that my two go to school here (Germany). The whole school set-up is very different - with kindergarten until age 6 and then school - which equates to what was primary school when I were a lass (back in the 70s - 1st year junior started at age 6 or 7)

Kindergarten is mostly non-academic (in fact, it's one thing that I hate about schools here - children aren't encouraged to read or write or do basic maths until primary school). It's generally either mornings only (up to midday), or up to 2pm (including lunch and a nap) or up to midday - then from 2 until 4pm.

And the headmaster of my #2 daughter's school (secondary - she's 10) says that 8pm should be the latest they go to bed!! (we don't stick to that - they'd just talk until midnight anyway)

To be honest, I'd like it if my employer would let me have a nap at lunchtime too!

[mumoftwo]

Jan, I've noticed that when I go to my husband's family on the Continent, they think we're incredibly odd trying to put our children to bed at 7pm! They do keep their naps for much longer though, I have a friend from Eastern Europe who remembers having naps at school til she was about six! Here, my just three year old who really still needs a nap can't have one as she goes to a pre-school without napping facilities, so she often has a quick cat-nap in the buggy on the way home. Very few children would be up at 7am and then stay awake til 11 with no break, even on the Continent.

I'm interested as to how they view time together for the mum and dad though- there must be little couple time, and only family time, I wonder if anyone minds or whether that's seen as an advantage.

[jan]

It's a cultural thing. The GUILT you lot seem to feel if your kids sleep late even once! I had the opposite--no one here ever sends their kids to bed before 10.30 regardless of age. The children seem to survive. Of course, I was the crazy foreigner who tried to get the children in bed by 9!

[Kelly B]

Hey Crispin Willis,

This is the internet and anyone can comment whereever they like. You obviously hate people without kids but hey, maybe we're just smarter to wait until we're ready and can provide useful advice anyway. You are close minded.

[Geraldine - South Africa]

I toatlly agree with Frankie. There are owls and fowls. I am an owl, As a child I had a strict bedtime imposed with lights swtiched off. I would lie awake for hours every single night for years. Terrible!
People have different sleep needs - I cannot go to sleep before about midnight...and I am now over 60. I function well and have been successful and happy all my life. So, when my children came along, I did not force them to have a strict bedtime. We would read to them and try to wind them dowm but none of this rigid "You WILL go to sleep now" type of parenting. And they are both grown up now and also doing well as people who listen to their biological clocks.

[crispin willis]

bless people without children for their comments but if you do not have children you cannot give advice or comment regardless of how many friends with kids you have or whether you are an aunt or uncle many times over!!!

[Rachel]

Bedtime is bedtime... end of story. (no pun intended!) A routine is essential both for wind down time and actual bed time. Do adults go straight to bed from activity? Not usually, so nor should children. We start at 6 on the wind down, bed at 7 for our 5yr old and 8 for our 8yr old. It works for us.

[Helen]

My parents had a strict rule - in your bed at a set time. I could read in bed. About half an hour later my dad would come and remove the book from where I'd dropped it, mark the page and turn the light off. The best thing about this rule, from their point of view, was our apparent good behaviour on holidays when other children would be whining in the guest house about bedtimes!

[Amanda]

Whenever I let my 5 and 7 year olds stay up, even for an extra half an hour, they are always exhausted the next day and always say "its your fault for letting us stay up. You're our Mummy, you should force us to go to bed". So.

[Theta Sigma Mummy]

Caitlin - put some talking books/audios on Dora's ipod and let her listen to them in the dark (you know, with the light turned off). She'll probably drop off to sleep much more quickly and easily this way.

[Jen]

My (now 18 yr old) daughter had a strict pre-bedtime routine. As a single mother who worked full-time I never got her back from the after school club until 7pm (this was in Paris), then it was dinner and a bath, then a story, then bed. The bath was an essential part as it seemed to have a calming effect. Then she'd get into bed and I'd climb on to it and we'd snuggle up and have a story, at the end of which it was a kiss, cuddle and lights out. Never had a problem with her. As she got older, she was allowed to read in bed, and sometimes I'd find her asleep with the light still on. No TV in the room, EVER. It's possible this is not as easy to do with more than one child, but my mum raised 7 of us like that, and apart from staggered bedtimes due to age, it worked like clockwork. You have to be firm!!

[LM]

Sally,

Parents (particularly those of young children) like to tell war stories about sleep deprivation but it's really not that awful for most parents most of the time. And even if it were, the answer to your question is yes, it's worth it - a million times over, and then some.

[Sally]

I just babysat a 3.5yr old whose parents routinely let her stay up till 9.30pm. Personally I think this is WAY too late for a child that age. I am not a parent myself but an aunt & have loads of friends with kids. I watched this little girl get tireder & tireder having tried to put her to bed, then the dad rang & said (unexpectedly) that the mum was coming to pick her up, so I kept her awake, Mum never turned up, had to call the Dad at 9.45pm, he got back at 10pm. Child and I were both exhausted. Maybe not a 'normal' night for them either but I was struck by how even if the parents were still together, they would not have had ANY time to themselves.
I really want to have a family but reading all these posts is putting me off! Do the benefits outweigh the lack of sleep??!

[Supermother]

I like a bed room with very little distraction. The children know that I can't even have music on if I'm trying to talk.

Children love a stable bed time routine where the same things happen every day. it makes them feel safe and cared about.

[Jarrad]

As a non-parent I can't help thinking that this is another one of those things like "You can play on the XBox after you've done your homework"....what I mean by that in my ignorant naivete is that as long as you make your mind up early as to what the rules are and then stick to that, the child knows nothing else and it just becomes the way it is.

It always seems to me that the bigger a deal you make something, the bigger a deal it becomes.

[Marie]

My mum died when I was 4 and I grew up with a string of childminders and little routine. I believe that if I had had one it would have given me a much needed sense of security and taught me some basic life management skills which I ended up having to teach myself with great difficulty (still learning).

My dad also let me me stay up as long as I wanted reading. This led to a passion for books but also meant I spent my school years yawning, moping and sleeping through class. I wish he had made me turn of that light - it might have led to me being happier and actually leaning something.

I now have two children of my own and they have a very clear set routine. I believe this gives them an all important sense of security and the energy to run rings round me all day long!

[LM]

pre-bedtime routine: by which I mean, before the bedtime routine begins, not part of it (not so articulate today).

[LM]

Am surprised at how many people seem to allow their children TV/videos/video games as part of the bedtime routine. In our house, TV is strictly pre-bedtime routine. To parents who allow TVs in bedroom/as part of bedtime routine: what are the benefits you've found of going this route? (I'm genuinely curious, not trying to sound snide).

Incidentally National Geographic recently ran an article on importance of darkness to us (humans) & how electricity/electric light has enabled us to screw with our diurnal rhythms - as self-professed night-owl, made interesting reading but I still can't force my body clock to change, unfortunately.

[ww]

I have found it necessary to still have a very strict bedtime/lights out policy during termtime for my 10 year old, as she is otherwise likely to read until the small hours and she suffers when she has fewer than 10 hours sleep. During the holidays, the rules are more relaxed. If given a choice regarding bedtime during termtime, she persistently makes the wrong choice. So we've reverted to the no-argument-lights-out-now bedtime routine for the time being. But each child undoubtedly has different needs in this regard, so you have to keep tweaking your arrangements as time goes on. However, parental needs also have to be taken into account.

[A mother]

Fascinating.

In my family, there are no fixed bedtimes. The people in the family sleep when they are tired and wake when they are ready.

Essential characteristics of this life style:

flexi time working and education

plenty of beds in different rooms so that there's always somewhere quiet for someone to sleep

Advantages? At a very young age, children learn to trust their own physical cues about when they are tired. They learn how to go to sleep when tired rather than trying to go to sleep because someone else tells them they should be feeling tired.

But this lifestyle just isn't possible for families locked into both-parents-work-full-time-at-set-hours-and-children-are-in-external-childcare-or-school-at-set-hours.

Worth experimenting with in the holidays though.

[Frankie]

I was forced to go to bed much earlier than I needed to and consequently lay awake for ages. This has led to a lifetime of difficulty in sleeping as I can never just get to sleep straight away. Children have their own natural body clocks too, the same as adults.

[Kalyani]

If you give Dora free reign over bedtime and she decides to stay up until 6 AM, she will learn a great lesson. After dragging through school on an hour sleep, she will completely understand the reasons for going to bed early, and probably won't do it again!

Rather than a bedtime, I designate an "adult time." At 8, the kids go to their rooms and play quietly (read, watch a movie, play a video game), but they can stay up as late as they want (we've already gone through the "staying up til 6 AM" lesson). This give the adults time to do grown-up things, but doesn't force the kids to stick to a schedule that doesn't fit their bodies.

[Charles Law]

Our elder boy who naturally would fight going to bed usually has a full night's sleep because of his diet of homework, sports, Scouts and piano practice. In other words heis naturally "bushed".

[Mia]

"loosing" - urgh, you'd think a Times journalist would be able to spell!

[BMB LULU]

I was that non-sleepy child and my parents tried everything with me, bedside lamps, books, story tapes.... The up-shot is I am now 35 and still need light, books and the spoken word to get me off to sleep. Were these habits learned or am I just a shocking sleeper? Actually I think the latter is the case as I now rejoice in 5-6 hours a night which is double what I lived on from 18-30.

I do have two tops tips for insomniacs (and the parents thereof):

1. Invest in a lumie-lamp (sp?). These are the bedside lamps that simulate sun-rise in the morning and slowly dim at night. Absolutely fantastic when reading in bed as your eyes will slowly droop as you lose the light to read by. Inevitably you (or your partner) will wake with part of a book in your face/back (particularly lethal after Christmas with all those hardback book gifts) but a few crumpled pages are a small price.

2. Subscribe to BBC Radio 4 podcasts. Not only a great opportunity to catch up on the output you missed but if Melvyn Bragg's "In our time" doesn't have you snoring within ten minutes nothing will. Thinking about it, this would also be a fantastic threat for the children...."if you don't xxx its the whole "In our time - Darwin Special"....all 5 hours"