Top 50 middleweights ever - No 1, Harry Greb

So we get to No 1 and the last card in the pack is Harry Greb. Perhaps not as well known as Robinson, Hagler, Monzon, Hopkins or Ketchel, but he stayed around the middleweight limit, despite boxing many bigger guys, and his achievements match any of those mentioned above.
In fact maybe his achievements outweigh most of those for one very simple fact - for most of his career, he was blind in one eye and late on he was losing his sight in the other one too.

But there is a fact about Greb that most people know - that he was the only man to have beaten Gene Tunney.

The bout Greb won was on May 23 1922 at Madison Square Garden. Tunney had nearly a stone weight advantage, but Greb boxed like he always did, swarming forwards, chopping Tunney up and eventually winning a unanimous decision. In fact Tunney and Greb boxed five times (it was the days when boxers boxed all the time - Greb had around 300 fights), Tunney won three, one was drawn and Greb won one. Tunney never lost again and went on to win the heavyweight title from Jack Dempsey, retiring as champion.

Greb was known as the Pittsburgh Windmill, an apt description for his non-stop attacking style. As well as Tunney he beat a host of champions and was very clever in the ring and also, often, quite dirty. Among the champions he beat were Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, Mike McTigue, Tommy Loughran, Mickey Walker (against whom he apparently fought an impromptu rematch in a bar after the fight).

Among his other notable scalps were Mike Gibbons, and heavyweights Billy Miske and Gunboat Smith. But if Greb was dirty, what of Kid Norfolk, whose thumb cost Greb the sight in his eye in 1921? When they boxed a rematch in 1924, Norfolk apparently head butted Greb into the second press row. He then repeatedly hit Greb low and Greb was disqualified when he retaliated. When they kept fighting at the end, the referee fled to the dressing-rooms fearing a riot. Both boxers were banned from boxing in Massachusetts for six months.

When he lost the title to Tiger Flowers in 1926 he must have been a physical wreck, but he was still considered unlucky. He lost a rematch in August that year and then retired, having an operation soon after to replace his blind eye with a fake one. He was seen at the Tunney-Dempsey first fight in Philadelphia the following month with a patch over an eye after the operation.

Sadly there was to be no long happy retirement for Greb. He died on October 22 1926 after an operation to remove a small fractured bone from his nose, an injury he had received in a car crash. He was 32.

For those wanting to read more about the remarkable life of Greb, there is a fantastic website dedicated to his memory. To reach it, click here

Comments

[Eileen Cohen]

I heard Leo Levinsky was the was the greatest in his day. After all he is my grandfather my mother told me so.

[Adam C]

Seems odd Robinson not being at number one, but you make a good case. The top 6 are very good fighters and Greb, like Hagler, was someone who went on to great things after a few losses early in his career.

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

Thank you Mr Lewis. The alphabets have many rules but not all of them are enforced. Unfortunately they are all profit driven organisations and money talks.

Ventolin - I cannot recommend Peter Heller's book 'In This Corner...' enough. The books consists of typed transcripts of former champs stories in their own words. Some of the efforts described to make weight are a real eye-opener.
One final word on Greb's lack of power. It was offset by a great chin, the stamina to throw punches almost constantly (a la Henry Armstrong) and no little amount of skill. But having little KO power should not detract from ones standing as a boxer: I like to think that fighters like Tiger Flowers, Pernell Whitaker, Jack Britton, Jackie Berg, Tommy Loughran, Paul Pender, Willie Pep & Harry Greb were not inconvenienced at all by their lack of power when in the ring.

[Ron Lewis]

You may call it laughable, Ventolin, but it's true. Jones and Hall both tested positive for the fight in Indianapolis in 2000. What was laughable was that the Indiana commission did not have any rules that banned drug taking so he accepted a fine, so it wouldn't go further. All the governing bodies swept it under the carpet.
But he's not the only one, Shane Mosley has got himself caught up in the Balco scandal, Fernando Vargas was banned, so was James Toney, while Evander Holyfield has been accused too.

[ventolin]

laughable !

you dredge up an unsubstantiated allegation against an all-time great

if there was any basis behind it, do you not believe that the media wouda been onto him like a hungry dog on a bone ?

the alphabet boys take doping very seriously & ban fighters found +ve

for wba :

http://www.wbaonline.com/legal/LegalStatements/worldchampionships.pdf

"18.5 Anti drug test shall be obligatory at all world championship fights and these tests can be
done either before and /or after the bout. The sample shall be taken in an official
ceremony form both boxers and preferably at the same premises."

for wbc :

http://www.wbcboxing.com/WBCboxing/portal/download/wbc_rules-regulations.pdf

"4.9 c) Antidoping Test Required. The antidoping tests are mandatory for every world title
or elimination bout."

you can read about the bans for anyone found +ve

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

Ventolin, please just type steroids in boxing into Google for evidence of steroids in boxing. I have attached one of my favourites here, if only to show that all the alphabets completely ignored steroid abuse. Perhaps you will be willing to concede that I was not talking absolute nonsense after all, or would you like more evidence? http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/hall-richard-interview.php

[ventolin]

creatine is a protein, little more than steak mixed in a blender - it is no wonder supplement - same effect can be achieved by eating plenty of prime steak

boxer's openly admitting to take steroids ???

absolute nonsense

find one boxer in recent times who's ever dared admitted to such - if they did they'd immediately be suspended by the alphabet organisations

if ole time champs starved themselves to make weight they were idiots - a few minutes consultation with a doctor back then who would advise on a low fat diet but still with reasonable carbohydrate & protein to allow training & not lose excessive muscle woulda allowed them to make desired weight ( boiled pasta with grilled skinless chicken/fish is the usual recommendation )

as for frequency of fighting :

- robinson had immediate rematch contract in case he lost on his tour - if he hadn't lost to turpin, he unlikely woud never have fought him again

- as for lewis, that's 3 meaningful fights in 1y & 14 others of no more than glorified sparring in order to earn a paycheck - you don't seem to appreciate the overall quality of of the "paycheck" fighters was low - the champs weren't fighting top-10 ring magazine contenders every coupla weeks, but catchweight contests against likely number 30 - 40 fighters - little chance of being outboxed & main worry was being caught by a sucker punch - avoiding that, little more than glorified sparring exhibition on their part

as for greb - it's been suggested already that his best chance was in his initial fight with an opponent when his windmill style surprised them ( but hardly ever ko'ed them ) - by rematches his chances were reduced as opponent was more aware of it - as stated tunney beat him on all the other occasions they fought & certainly didn't get banged up excessively as he'd "worked out" greb's style

as for his windmill style, i've read no accounts it was any different from before his eye injury, so there is little substance to statements that his style changed in any way because of it - commentators at time didn't mention any noticeable style change between before/after '21

fwiw, greb was much shorter than hagler 5'9 1/2 to 5'8, albeit reaches closer at 75' & 74'

as for hopkins, the fighter we saw against calzaghe bore little resemblance to the young, hugry fighter of the early '90s

the recent guy was short of stamina thru age & coud only fight sporadically in a round & still managed to knock down calzaghe & claimed not to have been hurt thruout with any legit punch

watch jones v hopkins, when you see a fabulous aggressive fighter, hitting hard with either hand & hardly taking a backward step in 12 rounds - it was only due to jones's unparalleled brilliance that he managed to claim the decision (how the ring magazine had hopkins at number 9 at the time is a complete nonsense - same as monzon being about ranked 6 or 7 by the alphabet group when he fought benvenutti )

calzaghe fought a shadow of hopkins

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

Mr Ventolin, we may have to agree to disagree on this issue. But we can agree, I hope, that every boxer worth his salt nowadays uses supplements like Creatine and that they are not lying when they openly admit to taking steriods in order to increase their body's muscle mass. Similarly, by reading boxers accounts in Peter Heller's excellent book 'In This Corner...' we can hear from the champs themselves about how they had to starve and dry out in order to make weight. Infact it was such a serious issue that it was the reason that the rules were changed to allow boxers to weigh in the day before a bout. As for fighting regularly being 'glorified exhibitions' this was simply not the case. It really was harder in the old days. When Turpin had to fight Sugar Ray Robinson twice in 64 days, this was no gimmick. In 1918 Kid Lewis only fought 17 times but defended his undisputed world welterweight title 3 times against all time greats like Jack Britton (Lewis fought him 4 times in 1918) and Benny Leonard. These fights are well documented as being really terrific grudge fights where the fighters took substantial punishment. After the 4th fight with Britton, Lewis fought a tough 12 rounder 5 days later.
Greb was the only fighter to ever beat Tunney and he did so hospitalising him for 3 days. Tunney said Greb was by far the most accurate puncher he had faced, had a granite chin and really long arms. His height and reach are almost the same as Haglers. The lack of genuine one punch KO power did not hold back Greb. His work rate was much higher than most boxers, so he landed more. His thinking was that if he was punching the opponent then he was less likely to get punched himself. Sounds a bit like Joe Calzaghe to me. Joe has been accused of 'slapping' and having no power but his non-stop action has yet to fail against noted power punchers like Lacy, Kessler and, oh yes, Hopkins.
Lastly, Greb had good reason for his style. He chose not to put too much leverage into his punches and relied instead on smothering pressure - this was because he was blind in one eye and had to ensure his good eye was especially safe from counters.

[ventolin]

it becomes a nonsense when anyone starts introducing talk of modern fighters using steroids/nutritional supplements/etc aside

they have drug-testing in boxing & some have been caught, but lack of positives indicate a relatively clean sport (only times it's likely to happen are light-heavys/cruisers moving up to heavy )

losing weight is a time immemorial ability & without drugs hasn't changed - gradual weight reduction over a few weeks (science was developed well enough back then to know near starvation isn't correct way to do it - anyone who did it this way back then was an idiot ) - a hopkins now is using purely diet & exercise to lose weight as he woulda 80 years ago

excuses about them fighting 20+ rounds compared to 12 now won't wash - it's simply a case of modern fighters putting in every once of effort into their given 12 rounds as the ole timers put in in there 20 rounds - if modern fighters were asked to fight 20 rounds nowadays, they'd simply adapt by proportioning their effort over a longer duration

as for them fighting every couple of weeks back then - most were little more than glorified sparring (frequency of fighting necessitated by poor paydays) - i have little doubt modern fighter could fight these glorified exhibitions if asked to (an easy 10 rounder) instead of the 10-15 rounds of sparring they woulda done in the gym instead - however, paydays are better for the elite & there is no need to fight at these frequencies

hopkins at 6'1 & ko power in either hand woulda been simply too big & hard-hitting for the 5'8 greb - the case that greb beat light-heavys depends upon their quality - most of boxrec comments go on about "greb facing the slow ponderous light-heavy who he outspeeded, etc"

as for tunney, it's worth noting that once the novelty value of the beating he got from greb, probably due to his unique windmill style was digested, he beat him 5 times in total

quite obviously, greb stood his best chance in a 1st fight against anyone, where his style may have unnerved opponents, who by rematches woulda been quite well aware of his style & much better able to dominate him

the light-punching greb with only 40 kos out of 260 wins certainly wasn't going to knock a hopkins out, whatever era & was more likely to have been ko'ed himself

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

Unfortunately, most modern reviews of boxers from a bygone age are wrong at the very start - Ventolin's is no exception. Times change, technology, rules and methods all change over time. Yes, by today's standards of weighing in the day before a fight rather than on the day, fighting only 12 rounds instead of 20 rounds, using 8oz gloves instead of 12oz gloves, using nutritional/protein/steroid supplements, plyometric training instead of starvation diets modern fighters have the advantage.
But consider a boxer like, say, Bernard Hopkins had he been born to fight in Greb's time. Would he have been champion over Greb? The answer is no.
Hopkins would have had to fight at light heavyweight or heavyweight as that is his ring weight. And, even if he could boil down to middleweight, what was left of him would have been suffocated over round after round of Greb's non-stop action as he faced about 70+ punches a round with only one of those new fangled flimsy mouthguards. Besides Hops would have still been too tired to fight after his other fight 2 weeks previously!
See? Now, imagine Greb born to fight in these modern times, with all the advantages of the 80 or so years we have gained from boxing instruction, the lighter gloves, the shorter fights, the supplements etc. Greb would have been a massive light middleweight.
In the end all you can do is dominate your era and beat those in front of you. The better the man you beat, the longer you last, the higher your standing. For instance Greb beat Tunney who went on to become an undisputed heavyweight champ. Hopkins failed to beat Roy Jones Jnr. Greb beat everyone he had to. Hopkins did not and hence the ranking. Incidentally, as for having no power in his fists, Tunney spent 3 days in hospital after fighting Greb.
I think Ron Lewis has got this list almost spot on and what is more, he is in accordance with lists compiled by a host of boxing writers/experts like Nat Fleischer, who actually saw Greb fight.

[ventolin]

greb didn't have dynamite in his fists & unfortunately for him that's his main startling flaw against most elite middles - most in that top-10 did & coud certainly have taken him out

read his boxrec record & various comments on his fights - there are accounts of him being badly staggered & on occasion on verge of being ko'ed - i have no doubts likes of hagler, monzon, robinson et al wouda done similar to him

as for modern elite middles born in his time & training like him, as long as they didn't lose their punching power in that time machine, result woulda been certainly the same - greb badly hurt & possibly ko'ed - hitting power is always king

as for greb's actual style, i'm informed no actual fight footage exists, just some videos of him sparring & shadow-boxing - they can be seen on youtube

now, assuming that was him actually trying flat-out (he had no reason to try anything but his best as he was trying to "sell" upcoming fights), the footage shows an excrable fighter, comments on youtube which put it best were :

"any 1/2 decent modern amateur wouda beaten that"

"hey ! that's how my uncle spars !"

like they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words & a video probably infinite numbers of photos...

[Ron Lewis]

Turpin came in at No 19. To view all the rankings, click on Boxing Blog Rankings at the end of the original article. To get to the top of this you really needed longevity, which is something Randy's career at the top didn't have.

[jack]

Why does Randolph Turpin never get a mention especially when the Yanks are calling the ratings.
They never want to hear that Turpin defeated Robinson and fixed him for his return in the States.
They knew his weakness was women and made sure he had plenty before the fight night return .

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

Greb may not have had dynamite fists but remember Greb fought light heavies and even beat Gene Tunney who went on to beat Dempsey for the middleweight crown - and remember too that in Greb's day you weighed in on the day of the fight, so yes, middleweights were smaller then. Could today's middleweight greats have beaten Greb had they been born in his time and trained in his way? A resounding NO!

[ventolin]

highly over-rated

top 10, yes, but lower reaches

reason ?

no punching power

it's great to have a buzzsaw style to overwhelm opponents unprepared for his style, but 48 ko's in 260 wins just won't hack it against others in top-10 who were mostly big, strong middleweights

in fights against these guys, you need to have the single shot hitting power in either fist to turn close contests in your favor - he didn't have it

[matthew syed]

Excellent list Ron - fair, wise, judicious and always interesting. I have no doubt that Greb and Robinson are the best middleweights of the lot, and I am glad you have come to the same conclusion. It is damnably difficult to pick between them. Feel that Mickey Walker was too low, but forgive my quibbling.

I look forward to the next list.

[Ron Lewis]

Jason, If you click on Boxing Blog Rankings, all the related articles should come up together

[Jason]

Could one of the site editors clean up this mess of a page, would love to read more of it but cant be bothered sometimes due to the messy links between related articles

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

I think the list is close to being right in my mind. My only concern is the high place afforded Hopkins, who never defeated a world class middleweight and was not even the top middleweight during his long reign.

[James Fairweather]

Did we get Fred Apostoli, Ron? I've forgotten what the full fifty looks like, but if he is missing, he and Les Darcy would be the unlucky ones, most probably.

[Ron Lewis]

Kid,
Throwing Sam Langford in the mix this late on is probably why I get no sleep. That was one of the reasons I asked for a few top 10s before I started, so I didn't miss out any names like I did with the original British list. Ah well, snubbed in life, ignored in death, maybe he'll make the light-heavyweight and heavyweight lists.
The biggest worry doing these as you go through is that you have overlooked someone. This time I actually had the opposite problem as I was some way through and noticed that I had Emile Griffth's name down twice. So I had to come up with a name I had originally discounted to fill a gap.

[John Jorrocks]

What a thoughtful, superbly constructed judgement. Greb gets my vote, too, over Robinson, even though, as you say, Robinson would top anyone's pound-for-pound list. I agree about Hagler at no. 3, too. May I say that it wasn't such a surprise that Duran gave him so much trouble? He was the best fighter - this blown up lightweight - that Hagler ever fought.

[James Fairweather]

Magnificent stuff, Ron. Greb is not only the greatest middleweight, but has a claim for high ranking among the light-heavies as well, based on his performances and results against the likes of Loughran, Levinsky, McTigue and, of course, Tunney. I know there are plenty of good judges who place him on the fringes of the top 10 175 pounders.

He and Tunney became great friends and admirers of each other's abilities. Greb had reputedly handled Dempsey with some ease in sparring and was asked to help the champ prepare for his defence against Gene in 1926. Greb is supposed to have refused, saying that he would feel like a thief taking Dempsey's money, because "whatever Jack does, he'll never be able to get himself in good enough shape to lick Gene."

Wonderful, wonderful fighter and an entirely appropriate choice for number one middleweight.

[Crashing Dashing Kid]

Undoubtedly the greatest fighter ever to fight at 160lbs - with the possible exception of Sam Langford who had to fight heavyweights because he was frozen out of the middleweight scene due to his colour. A great series Ron.