A serious matter indeed

The blogger Neil Clark has posted about what he calls "a serious matter". He is concerned that I allowed Stephen Pollard to call Slobodan Milosevic a genocidal butcher "in Britain's oldest newspaper".

He asks people to write to me to complain. Surprisingly, when I last checked my email I found that no one has yet done so.

Perhaps Harold Pinter doesn't write emails.

Comments

[Neil Clark]

Neil Clark is concerned that a regular contributor to Britain's newspaper of record was allowed to claim that Slobodan Milosevic was a 'genocidal butcher' when no evidence exists to support such an assertion.
If you or Mr Pollard do possess evidence, why don't you make produce it?
Or does being a neo-conservative mean that you can make as many outlandish claims as you like, without having to back them up?
(I'm sure readers can remember the case of Iraq's WMDs)

[Sarkis Zeronian]

On the Pinter link you give above which sends us to the International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic (the "ICDSM"), it refers to everyone's favourite King of Comedy (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1989667,00.html) as "Harold Pinter, Playwright, England International Law, Attorney, Russian Federation, Vice-Chairman ICDSM".

Well you loearn something new every day, I had no idea he was an attorney as well as a comedian.

[Juvenal]

Where is that word "alleged" when you need it...

[Tomáš Ruta]

I must support Neil Clark in here. Where is your evidence?

[Marko Attila Hoare]

Neil Clark is not being entirely accurate when he claims that none of us has ever provided evidence to back up our charges against Milosevic. In at least two blog debates with him, I put forward evidence indicating Milosevic’s responsibility for war-crimes in Bosnia, for which Clark was wholly unable to provide any response. Most recently, here (halfway down the thread):

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/neil_clark/2007/01/blairs_earlier_illegal_war.html

Meanwhile, Clark has never been able to produce any documentary evidence for his own accusation against the late Bosnian President Alija Izetbegovic, whom he claims recruited for the SS in Bosnia during World War II.

So far as Milosevic’s responsibility for genocide is concerned, this is easily demonstrated. The Srebrenica massacre was carried out by the Bosnian Serb army under Ratko Mladic. In his published diary, Borislav Jovic, former leader of the Socialist Party of Serbia and Serbia’s representative on the Yugoslav Presidency, describes how he and Milosevic arranged the formation of the Bosnian Serb army and Mladic’s selection as its commander. This was achieved through Serbia’s control over the Yugoslav People’s Army (JNA). Mladic was appointed in May 1992 to command the Second Military District of the JNA by the Presidency of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, a body over which Milosevic’s Serbia enjoyed a formal majority control. By his own account, Mladic formed the command of the Bosnian Serb army directly from the command of the Second Military District. In other words, a body formally controlled by Milosevic’s Serbia put in power the author of the Srebrenica massacre. Jovic describes how he and Milosevic concentrated Bosnian Serb JNA units in Bosnia to form the new Bosnian Serb army. Bosnian Serb forces were formally under JNA command until 19 May 1992, when they were transferred to Republika Srpska command as the new Bosnian Serb army. So the army that carried out the Srebrenica massacre was set up by a body controlled by Milosevic’s Serbia (both de jure and de facto). This is all described in my book ‘How Bosnia Armed’ (Saqi Books, London, 2004) in greater detail.

I don’t know how much evidence would be needed to satisfy Clark, but I suspect that nothing would ever suffice.

[Neil Clark]

Marko Attila Hoare ought to know that an official and exhaustive Dutch government report found no evidence of political or military liaison with Belgrade concerning the killings at Srebrenica.

Regarding Kosovo, despite the profligate use of the 'G' word by western political leaders in the spring of 1999, no genocide charge ever appeared in the ICTY's Kosovo indictment against Milosevic.

[Rodney Atkinson]

Sir,
Stephen Pollard accuses the late President Milosevic of Serbia of "genocide" and "butchery". This may be in tune with the kind of anti-Serb propaganda that the British media have bombarded him with but it is not supported by the Hague Trial where the accusation of genocide was dropped and even some prosecution witnesses defended Milosevic on other charges.

The true ethnic attacks emanated from Croatia (whose former leader was on record as having praised genocide and where war criminals continue to be sheltered) from Bosnian Muslims against Serbs and from the Albanian KLA whose attacks and ethnic cleansing of Serbs continue to this day.

Both the Canadian Ambassador to Belgrade James Bissett and the Canadian General MacKenzie (recently awarded the Order of Canada) have repeatedly provided evidence of Serb victimhood (one million Serbs are today refugees) and the lies and exaggerations of the accusers of the Serbs. It is time The Times provided more editorial balance in this matter.

Yours etc
Rodney Atkinson
(Author, Fascist Europe Rising)

[Ken]

OK, the Balkan Wars were brutal and plenty of crimes were committed. That is NOT the same as arguing that genocide occured. Referring to the Srebrenica Massacre only strengthens this argument. Nobody claims that massacres did not occur - they did and all sides carried them out - but that is not genocide.

[Barnsley's Beck]

So that's Mr Hoare's evidence?

" In other words, a body formally controlled by Milosevic’s Serbia put in power the author of the Srebrenica massacre."

That's it?

Please say it ain't so, Mr Hoare. This is your "evidence" against Milosevic ? All of it?

That's it?

Most hilarious thing I've read all week.

[marcus]

I submit my vote on the side of Neil Clark.
Demonization, in line with all the hyperbole that intends to inflame when reasoned debate will fail -- all 'bomb 'em to bits' campaigns rely on just such unsupportable rhetoric (read lies).

[Dima]

The best Hoare, Pollard and Co. can come up with is the claim that Milosevic allegedly appointed Mladic years before the Srebrenica massacre. He also manages to ignore the blatant illegallity of Bosnia's and Croatia's secessions among numerous other facts. The JNA is not the VRS and Serbia did not have command over either. Hoare is a real piece of work. He has even claimed that the Chetniks committed "genocide" against the Croats in WWII. The Milosevic trail revealed the active role played by western powers in deliberately breaking up Yugoslavia and the atrocities committed against Serbs by the KLA, NATO, Croat and Bosniak forces. The media prefer instead to rehash the same tired interventionist propaganda over and over.Pollard and his ilk have made a career out of lying and spinning in the service of power. Is there any reason to assume they'll stop now?

[Harry H]

The fact that Milosevic and Jovic assisted in the creation of the VRS is clearly not proof that they masterminded an atrocity that that army allegedly committed 3 years later! Izetbegovic created the Patriotic League and then the Bosnian Muslim army, but I would not consider that proof that he was personally responsible, or even necessarily knew about, the atrocities against Serbs in Sarajevo, Srebrenica, etc. Although in fact Mr. Delic did say that he had told Izetbegeovic about these atrocities and he had done nothing. And I have not seen any evidence that Mladic ordered any executions at Srebrenica. On the contrary, the official orders were to prevent any crimes.

No evidence has ever been presented that Milosevic ordered atrocities in Kosovo, let alone Croatia or Bosnia. The orders given to the VJ and Serbian police have all been presented at the Hague - prevent atrocities, protect civilians, etc. Thousands were even arrested for crimes, and the government in Kosovo at the time included many ethnic Albanians and other non-Serbs.

[Marko Attila Hoare]

According to the ICJ’s judgement “it is established by overwhelming evidence that massive killings in specific areas and detention camps throughout the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina were perpetrated during the conflict” and that “the victims were in large majority members of the protected group [the Muslims], which suggests that they may have been systematically targeted by the killings.” Furthermore, “it has been established by fully conclusive evidence that members of the protected group were systematically victims of massive mistreatment, beatings, rape and torture causing serious bodily and mental harm, during the conflict and, in particular, in the detention camps.” In other words, the Court accepted that Serb forces were guilty across Bosnia of actions consistent with genocide; the only thing lacking, in the Court’s eyes, was conclusive evidence of intent to destroy the Muslims as a group in whole or in part. This includes the period up to 19 May 1992, when Bosnian Serb forces were under the formal control of Milosevic’s Serbia and Montenegro / Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

The Court however accepted that genocide had taken place at Srebrenica, but by that time Serbia-Montenegro / the FRY was no longer in formal command of the Bosnian Serb forces, even though it was continuing to finance and supply them and exercised considerable influence over them.

In other words, for the spring of 1992 we have conclusive evidence of the guilt of Milosevic’s Serbia for massive and systematic killings of Muslims, but not enough evidence to convince the ICJ of actual genocidal intent; and for Srebrenica, we have conclusive evidence of genocide, but not enough evidence to convince the court of Serbia’s control over the perpetrators.

Mladic is - at the very least - guilty of genocide at Srebrenica by virtue of his command responsibility over those already convicted. And he was the same commander in charge during the mass killings of spring 1992, for which the ICJ does not feel genocidal intent has been proven. So both the Srebrenica genocide and the spring 1992 mass killings were carried out under the leadership of the same individual.

I concede it: Milosevic’s Serbia is as innocent as OJ Simpson.