The statistics and strategy behind suicide bombings

I first came across M.Daniele Paserman on a football website. He'd done some interesting work on valuing goal scorers.

Now Chris Dillow draws attention to a rather different Paserman paper - the mathematical relationship between suicide bombing and Israeli targeted killings. Here's the paper's conclusion:

In this paper we assess the effectiveness of suicide attacks and targeted killings in the Second Intifada.

We find evidence that the targeted killings of Palestinian leaders by Israel
reduce realized Palestinian violence. We find, however, that intended Palestinian violence is increasing at low levels of targeted killings, but decreasing at higher levels.

There is little evidence to suggest that suicide bombings against Israelis reduce the number of subsequent Palestinian fatalities. Rather, we find that suicide attacks that kill at least one Israeli lead to subsequent increased incidence and levels of Palestinian fatalities.

Our results do not support the notion that suicide attacks and targeted killings follow the “tit-for-tat” pattern that is commonly postulated in the literature.

Chris draws the conclusion from this that suicide bombing is a bad military strategy. But this is only true if the Palestinian leadership minds how many people die. The deaths may help put pressure on the Israeli government. Increasing the reprisal attacks may, perversely be part of the plan.

Comments

[Luke]

You have rather limited yourself in terms of the debate, there, in reducing Palestinian and Israeli tactics to tit-for-tat actions. I can't claim to know this paper very well, but reducing the search to complex social questions to a mathematical equation is not an effective way of getting to the heart of a problem. Probably the most respected and thoughtful critique of this tactic is Pape's 'The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism.' He does find a strong link between its use in territorial conflicts, and the outcomes of those conflicts. Think Beirut, US Marine barracks... He writes that "the close association between foreign military occupations and the growth of suicide terrorist movements in the occupied regions should give pause to those who favor solutions that involve conquering countries in order to transform their political systems. Conquering countries may disrupt terrorist operations in the short term, but it is important to recognize that occupation of more countries may well increase the number of terrorists coming at us." He also reminds us, and many of us do need reminding of it, that suicide terrorism, like ethnic cleansing, is not a new phenomenon, nor is it particuarly Islamic one, nor is it always imbued with religious overtones. Until recently, the highest number of such incidents was in Sri Lanka and it was the Tamil Tigers, a Marxist-Leninist inspired national liberation movement, doing it. This should tell us that it is a tactic employed with varying effect in various contexts, and that any attempt to fit it into a one size fits all definition will probably not work.

[Simon]

"Increasing the reprisal attacks may, peversely be part of the plan." Change the "may" to "probably". Most insurgencies have tried as a central plank of their strategy to goad government forces into over-reacting against the general population (vide Gerry Adams & "Bloody Sunday".) Leaders of such organisations who can persuade, brain-wash or brow-beat untrained followers of limited "military value" to become human bombs (whilst avoiding "martyrdom" themselves) are quite cynical enough to include this in their calculations and then weep crocodile tears at the result whilst capitalising on it vigorously.

[MB]

Simon: you need to educate yourself about the terrorism of your own country's Army before you pontificate about Bloody Sunday. Where is your evidence for your accusation that Sinn Fein "goaded" the British Army into responding on that day? The march on the day was a peaceful march run by the Northern Irish Civil Rights Association (NICRA - a peaceful community organisation not in any way allied with Sinn Fein / IRA) and members of the clergy were present. The IRA guaranteed that they would not be present to a local MP. The Army, however, were told by their commanding officers to expect IRA snipers and to "get some kills" according to paratrooper evidence. The soldiers ended up running amok and shot 13 people dead, 6 of whom were under 18 years old, all of whom were unarmed. So it was the commanding officers of the Army who "goaded" their own soldiers into an illegal killing spree, not the IRA. That's the reality, I'm afraid.

If you do have some evidence to show that this was a IRA-staged event designed to provoke the military then please write in with the evidence and write to your local MP too so he can inform the ongoing Saville Inquiry as it'll be news to them.

The ignorance out there about Northern Ireland will never cease to amaze me - still swallowing government propaganda about an event that happened over 30 years ago. What hope is there for a peaceful resolution to the war in Iraq??

[Land of the Wine Lake]

Hmm.. isn't the missing factor here that Israeli lives are worth 10x the column inches of Palestinian ones ?

Doesn't this need to be factored into the equation ? And that one American life is, bizarrely, deserving of 5 times the column inches of each Israeli one ?

[JOHN CHUCKMAN]

Good God, nothing I have seen recently reminds me more of the Nazis than this Paserman stuff.

The Nazis were famous for keeping meticulous ststistics of their criminal savagery.

Of course, if you murder people - for serial murder is what Israel practices, 'targeted killings' being techno-Nazi-speak - they will not be able to do anything in future. What a profound conclusion.

May I offer the the fairly clear idea that if Israel just exterminated the Palestinians it would never have to be bothered by them again?

Have the world's Jews gone mad? An American Jew, a prominent lawyer, advocates killing the families of terrorists. A Jewish historian in Israel puts forward the ides of a slowly moving artillary barrage to sweep all the Palestinians away. Other Jews defend torture. And in Israel, they tear down the houses of families.

You cannot have a just society if you are not willing to practice justice yourself.

It is time for Israel to get serious about peace. It has abused these people for fifty years. It's time to start treating them like human beings.

What's wrong with two governments living together without liking each other. To my my mind that's the best we can we can achieve.

It's none of Israel's business who governs the Palestinians so long as they meet their obligations.

Many governments have lived for years without recognition.

Of course, Israel listens to no one in its affairs. Why in God's name is it Israel's right to set a list of preconditions for Palestine?

It's just arrogance beyond measure. They've abused these people for half a century. It's time for Israel to show it can in fact do anything else

[David Lucas]

Leaving Chuckman's ravings aside (poor - or undisclosed - Palestinian record keeping makes suicide bombing OK, if I have understood it), it has always struck me that suicide bombing is tactically effective:

1) Team of 4 palestinian gunmen infiltrate settlement - result is usually a couple of dead Palestianians and a few wounded Israelis - ocassionally a few killed.

2) Palestianian suicide bomber in a cafe - result - one dead palestianian and often many Israeli dead and wounded

Based on ancedotal news reports, the casulty ratios are far better from suicide bombing, even before considering the wider terror effect.

So it looks like suicide bombing is the effective operational choice for a Palestinian force - killing more Israelis for fewer Palestinian deaths.

Of course Israel may react differently to different tactics, but surely the question really is: is it strategically correct for Palestinian forces to attack Israel at all? And for that we need to discuss their strategies not their tactics.

[J.Taylor]

Land of the Wine Lake,

Can you please explain your conclusion where you claim, without batting an eyelid, that Israeli lives are worth 10x more .... but consider it "incredible" that American lives are 5x.... more than Israelis ? Surely, God created everybody equally, in all religions, so which one do you belong to ?

[stephanie clague]

Dear John Chuckman,

Your anti semitic babble has given us a good idea of your politics! Even you must know that Israel has been under direct attack by some of the most evil and cruel people ever to walk the earth! The Palestinians have had chance after chance to live in peace and they have ALWAYS turned them down or broken their word! Palastine is not a nation as we would understand it, rather they are a collection of criminal gangs/tribes/families with very different aims but ONE and that is to murder and kill jews! They will say/do anything to further this aim!
The other day Hammas killers gave toy guns to some children and made them run to the border in the sick hope that Israeli troops would think it was a genuine attack and shoot them down! For years the Palestinians have used the most evil methods to attack Israel but you seem blind to this, why? A senior Hammas man said what would the jews have to do to live in peace with the Palestinians and he said " TO DIE"! The jew haters will always find an excuse for their anti semitism and nothing Israel does will change that!

Long live Israel and freedom!

[James Hewitt]

Who is the real culprit here Israel? Iran? Syria? Hamas? Hezbollah?

For the past 50 years USA has pumped enormous amounts of money, armament and technical know how, TRILLIONS of Dollars with full moral support at all times without question to ‘Israel’.

All this has been done not to bring about democracy, fairness or any such high notion for the Muslims; it has always been for one purpose and one purpose only to make sure the OIL pipeline remains open.

With this back ground how does the USA/UK or any other western country expect to win their hearts and minds.

Muslims have the fortune and in many ways the misfortune because most Muslim countries contain vast natural resources which are needed by the west.

Fortunate because it brings income to these poor countries and in many of them this is the only income they have.

But unfortunately these natural resources have brought about “The Shah of Iran (placed there by the CIA", "Saddam of Iraq (propped by USA, especially during the Iran-Iraq war)". Virtually all other leaders of all the Gulf countries are there because of USAs backing, so where is the justice and who is the real culprit?

Suicide bomber/target-killing are both killings (to kill just one person is as if you killed all of human kind) and lets not be fooled by the Israeli propaganda of ‘oh it was self defence, we killed a terrorist’, how may Palestinians have they killed, made homeless there are no known records.

I am sure the number is in the thousands.

[WombatofMassDestruction]

Did you know the the IRA sent men over to teach the Palestinians how to build bombs.

[Ilan Seidner]

James Hewitt asks who the real culprit is here. Without delving into the multitude of causes for the Middle East conflict, one can still ask why the Palestinians are reviled and persecuted by their Arab brethren -- the same ones who fund and encourage them to carry out suicide attacks against the Jews-- and butchered by their own kind. Let's look at the record: They have been expelled by Kuwait and Iraq, bombed by Lebanon --where they are denied basic rights to begin with, oppressed by Jordan, and kept in refugee camps in Syria. Inside Palestine itself, they have fought each other in Mosques and hospitals, with little concern for civilian casaulties. One may elect to castigate Israel for real and imagined transgressions, but perhaps the root cause lies within Palestinian political culture and its murderous dreams.

[Andy]

Mr Hewitt, I see a bit of a contradiction here - if securing oil is the issue, and all the gulf states are supposedly American clients, why on earth would the USA want to pour money into the Arabs' avowed enemy, Israel?

[Richard]

Mmmm, I see there is considerable polarization of views, I don't see that changing anytime soon. I suspect the long term answer is one or both of two things over maybe 100 years: 1. When mankind realizes en mass that religion is unnecessary and people are being used by it. and 2. When middle east oil runs out together with ammunition and explosives.

[Dan]

It has alway been a matter of who, not how many, are killed.

One side kills at random, the other aims at the head and hands of the beast.

There is more to the picture than the maths.

[DGH]

Dare I suggest that MB educates himself about events in Ulster before patronising others whilst regurgitating PSF propaganda?

MB: “The march on the day was a peaceful march”
It was also an illegal march, permission for which was denied at the behest of the Irish government.

MB: “members of the clergy were present”
As if no member of the RC Church had ever had affiliations with PIRA: Fr. James Chesney, Fr. Patrick Fell, Fr. John Burns, Fr. Patrick Ryan are just a few confirmed examples of clerical involvement with the IRA.

MB: “The IRA guaranteed that they would not be present to a local MP”
And who could ever doubt the word of the IRA? Who routinely breach their much-touted ceasefires? The murderers of women, children and the elderly? Responsible for the death of 2.054 people according to C.A.I.N, and 2,148 according to David McKittrick et al’s ‘Lost Lives’ (1999)—and who are still murdering yet (Robert McCartney, Denis Donaldson)? Who lie about deaths they were responsible for (Jean McConville, Kathleen Feeny, John McCartan)?

MB: “The Army, however, were told by their commanding officers to expect IRA snipers”
This is known as a briefing. Ulster was an operational zone, and nine soldiers had been killed in Londonderry in the six months prior to the march (one dying of his wounds that very morning), two of whom were shot by IRA terrorists using rioting crowds as cover. On the Thursday prior three RUC officers were shot in Londonderry’s Creggan Road, only one of whom survived.

MB: “The soldiers ended up running amok and shot 13 people dead”
(14 actually, one of those shot dying on June 16.) How many soldiers on duty that day? Hundreds? Thousands? All armed, most with an SLR with 20 round magazine attached and I don’t know how many spare mags. If soldiers had really run amok that day there would have been an *immense* number of fatalities, not just 14. I don’t suppose we’ll ever know for sure the truth of what happened that day: whether the 21 troops who fired misinterpreted events in a confusing and emotionally-charged situation, or whether they were returning fire as they testified. Certainly, apart from Gerry Donaghy, those killed were non-combatants—but that is why terrorists use crowds as cover, so as to cause non-combatant casualties.

MB: “6 of whom were under 18 years old”
One of those six 17 year olds, Gerry Donaghy, was a member of Fianna Éireann, the IRA Youth Section.

MB: “If you do have some evidence to show that this was a IRA-staged event … inform the ongoing Saville Inquiry as it'll be news to them.”
Not really, as they have had plenty of testimony that this was indeed the case:
“The Saville inquiry had heard more details about the claim that Sinn Fein’s Martin McGuinness fired the first shot on Bloody Sunday” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1055872.stm)
Testimony of Witness X, former PIRA gunman: “On Bloody Sunday I was using a carbine. It was a joint operation. I was firing from Glenfada. I used two full magazines. I had four mags altogether.” (http://www.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/transcripts/Archive/Ts414.htm)
Testimony of Gen. Sir Mike Jackson: “As I sprinted across the wasteground, I had an absolutely firm impression that I was being shot at. What I thought was ‘Some bugger is firing at me’. I could hear the crack of incoming rounds but cannot describe this further, or distinguish it in my memory now from the noise that was all around.” (http://www.bloody-sunday-inquiry.org/transcripts/Archive/Ts318.htm)
“The Provisional IRA deliberately provoked troops during the civil rights march on Bloody Sunday in an attempt to win support for their violent tactics, the daughter of a former Sinn Fein vice-president said yesterday.” (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/16/nblud16.xml)
“Soldiers reported seeing a vehicle carrying dead bodies over the border into the Irish Republic on Bloody Sunday, it was claimed today. … Soldier INQ 2033 told the Saville Inquiry in London he believed the report from an army sub-unit came through late on the evening of January 30, 1972 after the shootings had occurred in Londonderry.” (http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=33975&pt=n)
“An IRA gunman sheltering in a doorway shot a civilian dead at a barricade on Bloody Sunday, a former paratrooper said today. Soldier U, giving evidence at the Saville Inquiry at Central Hall in Westminster, described in his statement how he saw an arm appear holding a pistol from the Rossville Flats.” (http://breaking.tcm.ie/2003/09/22/story114443.html)
“A member of the republican movement saw a man with a rifle and heard a shot before he heard shots fired by the Army on Bloody Sunday, the Saville Inquiry has heard.” (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3475975.stm)

Oh, and the Saville Inquiry is not “ongoing” as it wound up in 2004, although we’re still awaiting the release of the final report.

[Zened]

If you are serious about understanding the islamic problems with non islamic cultures and people, try to understand the debate on this link:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=27737
Its not about israel; its about infidels.
Also one cannot help notice that despite the montheistic claims, ancient human sacrifice cults have taken control of Islam. What difference is there between an Aztec submitting for sacrifice and a modern 'suicide bomber'?

[Dave]

To JOHN CHUCKMAN; Target-killing of the homicide-terrorist’s leaders is evil necessary!

[John]

Q: "if securing oil is the issue, and all the gulf states are supposedly American clients, why on earth would the USA want to pour money into the Arabs' avowed enemy, Israel?"

A: By creating and maintaining a military threat amongst these oil-rich clients, a market is created with a strong demand for America's highest priced exports - WEAPONRY. This, in turn, incentivises said oil-rich clients to sell, sell, sell their oil to generate the hard necessary currency to buy the weapons. Even when the seller of arms was the Soviet Union, the buyer of the oil was America & her allies.

[Nagraj]

Richard = Richard Dawkins?
As an indian atheist, I can claim to be on neutral ground here. Why should the palestinians pay for the mistakes and the anti-semitism of the west by losing their lands.
Israel is no "promised land", home of the jewsyada yada, it is a giant US base meant to keep an eye on its middle eastern oil suppliers to make sure they keep in line and keep the oil flowing.
That the Arab countries have been ruled since independence by greedy inept rulers since independence is no secret but it has been american dollars that have propped up and installed these regimes, overthrowing democracies in iraq and iran.
And for those that criticize and berate the palestinian tactics, one has to remember that all Israelis have at one point or the other served in the IDF and therefore cannot be considered "civilians" and when one has an arsenal of stones and kalashnikovs against an enemy which is the world's sixth largest nuclear weapons power, desperate means have to be resorted to.

[David Downes]

I think the tide is starting to turn, so to speak, for Islam. Islamic leaders are only now beginning to grasp the real impact of suicide bombing....and it's financial! For we here in Europe are turning away from doing business with followers of Islam.

Via our various media organisations, we've grown to realise that not only does Islam, at its extreme, loathe Western values and non followers of their faith, they also have scant regard for each other! They'll murder just about anyone and all in the name of Islam! Soooo tenth century...sooooo backward!!!

In the UK, I'm very much noticing a lack of desire to engage with Muslims, even moreso in business. Wether it's just a simple matter of hiring staff...people are starting to back away from getting involved with Islam in any way at all.

So as with suicide bombers in Israel, less extreme preachers of Islam are starting to count the cost of their lesser intelligent fellow Muslims....martydom costs...and big time!

[michael]

Global warming will finish off these loonies before too long with a bit of luck, and at least 90% of the restof us.

[jimmy]

stats are a secondary factor here. suicide bombing has many benefits including polarizing people. suicide bombing makes people want to fight. muslims want both sides to be galvinised and to turn extreme.

suicide bombing also provokes a reaction from israel that makes israel look bad. suicide bombing is always a pr victory.

we need to kill anyone associated with suicide bombers. not just their families, but their associates and anyone who may have encouraged them to suicide bomb.

we have got to get rid of suicide bombing at all costs.

[Dr. Senar Bass]

>>For the past 50 years USA has pumped enormous amounts of money, armament and technical know how, TRILLIONS of Dollars with full moral support at all times without question to ‘Israel’.

All this has been done not to bring about democracy, fairness or any such high notion for the Muslims; it has always been for one purpose and one purpose only to make sure the OIL pipeline remains open. JAMES HEWITT"

Yeah, Palestine sure had loads of oil wells...same for Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, et al.

Are you stupid or just lacking in the most basic knowledge of geography? There are ZERO resources in any of those countries. And the last time Israel had any axe to grind with any of the countries that DO have oil was sometime back around 1982 (Osirak).

I've come to realize that the reason America Haters always claim it's "about the oil" is that they are so small-minded and hateful themselves that they can't imagine any people or country would do things for reasons they themselves wouldn't espouse-- greed and blindness. Just keep on spewing your hateful idiocy, James.

[dn]

The west should not impose its ideals on the muslim world who are only fighting for their right to blow people up. Just because we don't like blowing up in western culture, doesn't mean that muslims feel the same way.

[dn]

The west should not impose its ideals on the muslim world who are only fighting for their right to blow people up. Just because we don't like blowing up in western culture, doesn't mean that muslims feel the same way.

[stephanie clague]

FACT 1
It is perfecly normal and proper for a muslim to lie and cheat as long as the target is an "infidel" This is in the Koran!
FACT2
NO "infidel" is innocent so it is perfectly right to kill ALL infidels that do not convert to Islam! This is also made very plain in the Koran!
FACT3
No muslim may give his loyalty to an infidel or put any infidel country ahead of a muslim country! This also is made very plain in the Koran!
FACT4
Muslims in Britain will never be loyal citizens because the Koran forbids it!
The way that our political elite listen and believe what they are told by muslims who are duty bound to lie and cheat the infidels defys all logic! Surely they must know that words are easy and its actions that matter and in this regard the muslims have told us all we need to know about their intentions! When Chamberlain and his appeasing friends listened to Hitler as he lied time after time, what went through their minds? It seems our leaders are making the same errors again with the muslims! They are so spineless and eager to swallow the lies and half truths of the muslim "leaders" that they cannot or will not see our nation sliding into to civil war and the terrible pain that would entail!
Wake up England before its too late!

[DGH]

Nagraj: "...one has to remember that all Israelis have at one point or the other served in the IDF and therefore cannot be considered "civilians" "

Really Nagraj, ALL Israelis? Was 14 year old Maria Tagilcheva, killed by a suicide-bomber outside a disco, was she in the IDF? Was 7 year old Noam Leibowitz, killed in a shooting attack as she returned home from a bar mitzva, was she in the IDF? How about 3 month old Shmuel Taubenfeld, killed by a suicide-bomber on a bus, was he in the IDF?

Don't tell me, Nagraj, they would have *grown up* to join the IDF.

With athiests like Nagraj, who needs screaming fundamentalists?

Sources:
Tel-Aviv suicide bombing at the Dolphin disco
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/6/Tel-Aviv%20suicide%20bombing%20at%20the%20Dolphin%20disco%20-%201-
Noam Leibowitz
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20Peace/Memorial/2003/Noam%20Leibowitz
Suicide bombing of No 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem - 19-Aug-2003
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/8/Suicide%20bombing%20of%20No%202%20Egged%20bus%20in%20Jerusalem%20-%201

[James Bowman]

Two words stand out amongst all this chit chat "Muslims & Suicide. What does that tell us. Well it means there is a problem with the interpretation of the Koran. we must see as a modern society that blowing yourself to bits does not give you a handful of virgins in heaven. Once this is understood we may see a change. But in reality, the western world has no stomache to challege these fairy tale beliefs and until it does we will never see a peacefull western society. A large percentage of muslims still believe in conspiracy theories because they are being brainwashed as children through the mosques which have no suitable supervision.

If professional doctors deem it logical and rightious blowing up civilians then we must look at the root, religion and its interpretation.

Iraq and Palestine are excuses not triggers to cut short their troubled minds its not just extremists as the government fobs us off with, its the bad teaching to muslims using an outmoded and devisive Koran. It has now become the enemy within.

[Duncan]

It never ceases to amaze me how humans blithely fail to heed the lessons of history. Using religion as a basis for the formation of political policy caused an enormous amount of pain and suffering in Europe for centuries. Fortunately Christians have largely lost their desire for martyrdom - something that was enormously popular at one time. We can only hope that it suffers burn out in the Muslim world before we are all in our graves.

Religion is the single most destructive force in history, from the Catholic zeal of the middle ages and then the inquisition to the Islamist suicide bombers today. It is interesting to note how the Islamic countries were so much more accepting of foreign regions in the middle ages and after which the Christians were savages to almost all non-Christian sects (particularly the Jews it would be interesting to note). During the black death throughout Europe the pope had to issue a few decrees that the jews were not to blame (largely because he wanted to preserve the cash payments he got from them I suspect rather than any humanitarian zeal).

[Andy]

I'm so tired of people spouting "religion is the most destructive force in history" while ignoring
1. Most of the great altruistic movements in hostory are religious
2. When violence is caused by "religion" it is usually tribal or political violence cloaked in religion; e.g. Ireland, where the issue has always been who rules the country, not what type of church they go to
3. Can anyone come up with anything more destructive than the mass murders caused by atheist regimes in the USSR, Cambodia, China etc? How can anyone blame these things on religion? (although I suppose there will be plenty of people willing to give it a try...)

[VultureTX]

Two points:
it has been posted by others that Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian lives and that US has spent vastly more resources in supporting Israel than it's surrounding neighbor countries.

Well the reason might be-

Jews gets awarded more Nobel prizes than all muslims put together.

Jews per capita create magnitudes more patents (intellectual properties) that are used to advance technology than muslims.

Jews despite having nuclear weapons
and the best army in the region (hezbollah claims otherwise) has not actually attempted to take over any other country. Whereas the same can't be said about its neighbors.
NOTE: the IDF did not depose Lebanon's gov, and "Palestine" was never a nation state for the Pali apologists. Remember Palestinians so annoy other arabs that Egypt and Jordan both gladly ceded territory containing them to Israel. Jordan even force marched ~23000 palestinians into the west bank before handing it over to Israel.

/And no not a jew, nor fundie. Just someone who appreciates people having a productive culture as opposed to one who glorifies death and blames others.

[Frank Upton]

When anyone defends the IRA and Sinn Fein, I always think of Flanders and Swann's lyric "They blow up policemen, or so I have heard, and blame it on Cromwell and William the Third". The point is that bombers, assassins and the people who egg them on do it mainly because they want to, it's exciting, it makes them feel important and it's kind of fun. All they need is an excuse.

[ed]

The reality is that today in Britain and other European countries there is a substantial percentage of muslims who hate everything the west stands for. If they had their way we would all be destroyed, if we refuse to accept their koranic laws we would be terminated and in their eyes this would be justified because it says so in their holy book. Make no mistake, these people are intollerant and brutal and the Taleban in Afghanistan showed only too clearly what they are capable of. Daily attrocities are taking place in Darfur, muslims killing non-muslim africans and getting away with it. We saw muslims murder innocent toddlers and schoolchildren in Beslan, theatre goers in Moscow, commuters in Madrid and London, workers in New York, wedding guests in Baghdad and the list goes on and on. What they all have in common is that the murderers are all muslims! It's high time the people of the civilised world woke up to the fact that their lives are in danger from these backward and hateful islamists and we need to either see the so called 'moderate' muslims acting to surrender these thugs within their own communities or face the facts, that they too are going to have to shoulder the blame and the suspicions that go with it. If they don't want to live in liberal democratic countries and accept OUR way of life then they know where the door is. I'm sure Iran, Syria, Saudi and Pakistan will welcome them all with open arms and they can live in a sharia paradise where they can pray all they want, cover up their women, and if they want to blow each other up with suicide bombings then we can even sell them some explosives and make a profit out of it. Do us all a favour!

[Keith]

Dress it up how you like the trial of the 21/07 bomb failures highlights the fact we now have a large number of refugee cuckoos in the nest that was the United Kingdom.

What is our government going to do about the multicultural mess they created by flinging wide the doors to our country in the hope of reelection? Probably open the doors even wider. Incompetent government or what?

Guess we'll have to be have a go heros as the government now advocates through the BBC paranoia programme! Shame our government doesn't have a go at shutting the door!

[Renate Baramy]

I have read with interest what everyone has to say. As anIsraeli I am amazed how much antisemetism still exests in the worl. Why shouldn't we have a country,everyone else has.The Palestinians are their own worst enemies, always saying no. What would you do if some government said they don't recognize you and that they wanat to send you into the sea, especially if he was your next door neighbour? I think the Palestinians should have their own country but they must make peace with us first.

[Andrew]

We have been spared the sort of campaign the Israeli's have suffered and they have the best security- they have to, as the aim of the Arab nations is the destruction of Israel at all cost.
Nevertheless, there are people trying to hit at us, or hit back at us and whatever we think of their methods we have to agree that it must be our dangerous involvement in Iraq is a major reason for bombs in Britain.
We have to accept this if we are to become involved in the destiny of turbulent countries abroad.
It is very sad that the majority of British people were actually against our foreign policy and yet have this increased threat to their daily lives- something which could have been avoided.

[Bob]

Personally, I find these comments a little frightening, because they suggest a polarisation that may take generations to resolve. And it is more disconcerting to think that these comments may be moderate in comparison with more extreme points of view held by persons who do not frequent this site.

[Andy]

Welcome to the real world, Bob! I think a lot of the "let's get out of Iraq it only provokes them" are basically frightened by the real world and want to retreat to some imaginary safe haven. If only.

[Josh]

I don't suppose realism has much place in this debate, but realistically, both the Israelis and Palestinians are victims in this conflict. If you can get your head around that, and see the whole thing as a senseless tragedy, you may be able to make constructive contributions to the debate. As long as you're predicating the view of one side or the other - albeit in an attempt to balance things as you see them - then you're exacerbating the problem.