Did Hillary steal New Hampshire?

My post on the exit polls and Hillary Clinton's surprise victory has received a great deal of attention from political pundits with its theory that the clue to her victory lay in the exit polls.

I argued that if the exit polls were inaccurate, as I believe they were, then the spiral of silence was at work. In other words people were embarrassed to tell pollsters that they were voting for Hillary.

But some readers and bloggers have another theory - fraud.

They argue that the Diebold vote counting machinery (The Diebold Accuvote-OS) can be tampered with. Why did Hillary do well against the odds? Because the Clinton campaign and the establishment hacked the machinery.

Here's how such an idea could take hold.

First, the Diebold equipment is vulnerable to fraud. And a vast conspiracy would not be required.

At the bottom of this post I've put up a You Tube video from Princeton University academics. It shows how a criminal could infect a large number of Diebold Accuvote-TS with access to only one of the machines for a very short period of time.

Second, vote counting fraud has formed a big part of American history. And that is within the living memory of many Americans. Don't believe me? Read Robert Caro's stunning second volume in his life of Lyndon Johnson. He shows how LBJ stole his seat in the Senate.

And third, there was a significant difference in the result from machine counts in New Hampshire and that from hand counts.

According to some estimates (note of caution - they are compiled by a supporter of Ron Paul) Hillary Clinton scored 5.46 per cent more in machine counted areas than in areas where there were hand counts only. Barack Obama scored 3.08 per cent less in machine-counted areas.

Having explained this, I have to say I don't hold with this conspiracy theory for one minute.

To start with, the Diebold AccuVote-TS, a machine that allows you to vote electronically, was not being used in New Hampshire. With the exception of a few votes by disabled people, votes were being cast by hand and only counted by machine.

The Diebold AccuVote-OS  machine is an optical scanner that counts votes that were cast by hand. It shares some of the hardware and software of the AccuVote-TS and there are some pretty serious questions over its security too.

However, fraud involving counting machine is much, much riskier for the perpetrator than infecting the vote casting equipment with a virus. The latter erases all evidence. But with a counter, the paper vote remains. At any point ballots can be counted by hand and fraud proven.

The next reason to disbelieve the conspiracy theory is the numbers themselves.

The very figures used by the theorists are the strongest indication that no fraud took place. Hand counting tends to take place in rural areas, machine counting in urban areas. So you would expect the candidate with a stronger rural following to do quite a bit better in hand counts.

And that is exactly what happened. Obama's strength in rural New Hampshire had been much commented upon.

And finally there's this. Not very scientific I know, but still. I always tend towards the simpler explanation - that Hillary just won - over the complicated and eyebrow raising one - that a risky criminal conspiracy, even if small, was involved.

Comments

[Steve W]

Its my understanding that the exit polls were "sort of" correct. Remember, exit polls are models of behavior. The exit polls coming out of New hampshire were correct in showing the proportion of female vote going for Obama versus Clinton, and the proportion of male votes going for Obama versus Clinton. The problem in the model was that they underestimated the absolute size of the female vote, which was breaking big for Clinton. When that is taken into account, the exit polls show the actual outcome.

[The 3rd Column]

Could be true or not -- one thing we do know is that Bush with the help of his brother Jed stole the presidency from Gore in 2004.

[John Allen]

@ 'The 3rd Column' - that was 2000, not 2004, and his brother is Jeb not Jed. Whatever Katherine Harris did for her Governor, the US Supreme Court was the body that handed Bush the Presidency in the end. For that, Bush can probably thank Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush.

As for the main issue here, I agree with Danny Finkelstein. Occam's Razor is best applied - except, to be honest, the competing theories aren't even equal in other respects. This is just angry bluster from the Clinton's opponents.

[MARK KLEIN, M.D.]

I am a lesser known GOP candidate who was on the New Hampshire ballot. I spent several weeks actively campaigning in the state handing out close to 10,000 brochures. Also did heavy signing in the Manchester-Concord area. I am very suspect the 19 votes I received are accurate. I have good reason to suspect foul play because the GOP systematically excluded me in straw polls. For example, I won the Des Moines GOP chairman's online poll with 52%. Romney got 14% and McCain less than 5%. My name was removed, the count reset to zero and was refused relisting. The party then refused my $15,000 fee for a ballot line at Ames. Looking forward to hand recount. If I did get the thousands of votes I anticipated, I'm back in the game.

[David Pritchard]

Actually, it *is* scientific to opt for the simplest explanation, if the facts don't point clearly either way. This is known as "Occam's razor", or the Principle of Economy. It is absolutely fundamental to science, because, without it, an unlimited number of fanciful theories could be introduced to explain phenomena, based on unprovable assumptions. This principle is the best way to debunk most conspiracy theories.

[Tim]

"Not very scientific I know"

As the above comment notes, the writer has made it clear that he is not very scientific. He just doesn't know it.

Daniel Finkelstein, which parts of your story do we take seriously, and which parts must we forgive you for?

And, how are WE supposed to know the diff?

It seems like such a tiny detail, but you made an excellent point, and then pulled the rug out from beneath your own feet, with all of us watching. Not terribly journalistic, nor even blog-worthy. At least you did not perpetrate a deliberate fraud. Right? (how would we know?)

[JERRY MCMILLAN]

JUST THINK BACK A FEW UEARS, WHEN BUSH WAS GIVEN THE PRESIDENCY BY THE COURT. BALLOT BOXS WERE FOUNG IN TYPES OF PLACES. BUSH WAS AND IS A CROOK AND HAS BROUGHT THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE U.S. DOWN TO THE LOWEST POINT POSSIBLE. HE SHOULD BE GIVEN A JOB DRIVING A GARBAGE TRUCK AFTER HE LEAVES OFFICE BE CAUSE THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF IT SHOW UP IF THE CIA DOES NOT DESTORY IT. HE AND THE CHAIN SHOULD BE SENT OVER TO HELP FIGHT THE WAR THEY STARTED FOR THE LAST SIX MONTHS OF IN OFFICE WITHOUT ARMER OR WEAPONS AND ON THE VERY FRONT LINE.

[Mark]

The UN has been involved recently in countries holding elections to ensure no foul play is involved.
This appears to have been offered to the americans of whom naturally refused.
If you want results that are 100% accurate then wouldn't having a third party count the votes be more appropriate?

In New Hampshire they had a corporate body do the counting, meaning foul play could happen, and why there is so much speculation.

[Post American]

If the U.S. Government cannot prove the accuracy or integrity of our elections then why should we pay their taxes or obey their laws???

[Roto]

People are in mass denial. Folks, I work with statistics in research science on a daily basis. The constant residual between the candidates as the votes came in, indicated clear anomalous bias in the data... (no variation)

I am a registered independent, and all I can say is...

Why is there no validation/verification/transparency in the voting system given the long documented history of vote fraud in this country!!!!!

PEOPLE ARE IN DENIAL that there could be any foul play...

OMG. keep fooling yourselves... Why WOULDN'T we want to confirm these results given the time and $$$ and how much is at stake...

We have gotten very accustomed to losing our freedoms...

We are in BIG TROUBLE PEOPLE.
...look what is happening in Pakistan... how is this any different????

[joe dickson]

this particular issue is a bit of a waste of time isn't it

[Steven C.]

Come on folks,exit polls...please! Hillary didn't steal New Hampshire and for the love of god Bush didn't steal Florida, Ohio or Guatemala. What is it with the left? You win some and you lose some,got it?

The problem with any polls this time around is the fact that Obama is in the election.The liberals are obsessed with race(draw your own conclusions).When asked who they voted for, many are frightened that they will be perceived as a racist if they don't say Obama.Iowa was a caucus where everyone could see who received your vote. New Hampshire was a secret ballot.

[Brian Napier]

Sorry About That , but just like "Columbo" aka Peter Faulk , I do have one more thing !!

Like most Americans I have honed in on race in The Race as that has garnered so much ink in The Press Stateside the past few days !!

I nearly forgot all about some other very key issues !!

Just prior to Our Primary here in New Hampshire certain facts began to come to light !!

Obama ,in The Illinois State Senate , actually missed 7 Critical Votes on the issue of Choice !!

That is Red Meat for most Women and it should be as no one but The Woman , herself , should have anything to say about what does or does not occur within her very own body !! And on that Obama had been totally AWOL !!

Obama Flip Flopped on The Iraqi OIL War !!

Just like Hillary and almost all of The GOP , he made the serious mistake of claiming that he preferred something which sounded rather akin to a long term Korea - like Post Iraqi OIL War Occupation !! Most Americans want totally Out of Iraq at the very earliest !! Checking my social calender , Yesterday would be very nice !!

Reading between the lines Obama's credentials as a real Progressive - Liberal came into serious question versus John Edwards who for the past 6 years has been talking the talk as well as walking the walk vis-a-vis issues of real concern to The Poor and The Middle Classes !!

At best Obama seems to be a quasi or even pseudo Progressive - Liberal !! Maybe's he's the Politico equivalent to Post Modern Art !!

Many began to come to the serious conclusion that Obama lacked BOTH Experience and Gravitas !! And we already have that problem in The Little Village Idiot of Crawford , Texas !!

These too were critical factors just before The New Hampshire Primary , and played into my elevated Pre - Primary hopes for John Edwards , but Post - Primary we seem to have gotten caught up in that old race question again , myself included !!

[oldasiahand]

The suspicion was that Bush won Ohio in 2004, and thereby the election, with some help from the Diebold machines.

Cheating is a good old American tradition. Kennedy beat Nixon in 1960 with 'help' from LBJ in Texas and Mayor Daley in Chicago.

[Cllr Ken Tiwari]

For those of us, have friend&relativ
in that beautiful America, we-I would like to see Hillary Clinton do
get to white house, in her own authority;as a president of this USA
in the interest of all American
citizens; reformed health service &
free but good school, godd welfare-
service for all americans!!!!!!!!!!
Cllr Ken Tiwari(Oxford UK)

[DK]

You are wrong in one of your claims that Obama's support is rural and thus hand counted whereas Clinton's in urban and machine counted. If you look at the breakdown of the CheckTheVotes site (Counting Method Comparison) there is an analysis of small machine counted precincts and large machine counted precincts compared to large and small hand counted precincts. The results are that there is a distinct bias against Obama even in small precincts that were machine counted compared to small hand counted precincts. These small precincts are generally rural. So even in small rural precincts where Obama has support he was apparently penalised in machine counted precincts. If this is a problem with the machines then there is every reason to suspect the machines have had a negative impact on Obama's vote in large urban precincts.

[Roger]

Is the Pope Catholic and do bears sh*t in the woods. Hell yes she stole it.

Although her mucky paws were not all over the Diabold electronic voting machines. There is a huge discrepancy between the paper vote counties and the electronic vote counties, not forgetting it is ridiculous to suggest such a huge swing in her favour at such a late hour.

[marke]

Hacking into these machines is a reoccuring theme ... Diebold contribute heavily to the Reopulican Party ... the best thing for the Repuplications os for Hilary to win!! ... therefore if the machines were hacked into it was by the Republican Party not Hilary

[Michael Stein]

If we're going to consider a conspiracy theory, it's just as likely to be the Republicans tampering with the machines, in order to get the Democratic candidate they think will be most vulnerable in November. :) (For the record, I do not believe that there was any such fraud in New Hampshire.)

[Don Lowell]

Hmmmmmmm, I thought Diebold was under strict republican control!!

Lindy

[JIm Lacey]

It never ceases to amaze me how someone who starts off with good, solid invetigative intent is then willing, at the cost of his own credibility, to evolve what begins
as unbiased research into....yes, another conspiracy.

Yes, the Diebold voting machine can be programmed to miscount votes by introducing a memory card that carries a secondary software program designed for the purpose, but you then concede that someone (oh my God, it's "Them" again) would have to remove this card (after infecting
machine #1) and begin introducing it to successive machines in order to contaminate them as well, and you do this in a way that shows 1 machine infecting 2, then 2 infecting 4, then 4 infecting 8, making it look
like it is the machines themselves doing the infecting from one to the next.

You misuse graphics to demonstrate your narrative:

1. Suggesting 1 person alone is doing this, or that

2. A team of 2 or more individuals is doing it.

Short of a small army of conspirators, that 1 minute
suddenly becomes 8 or 10 or more minutes, depending on how many total machines there are at each polling place.

The conspiracy also fails to be fair or logical. It conveniently overlooks the need to:

3. Have a solid idea of the total voter turnout in advance, because at least "x" number of machines will
need to be infected, based in turn on how many voters will use each
machine, or

4. The whole exercise is lost.

While anything is ultimately possible, the evolution of your report:

5. Suggests only (villainous) Democrats would ever do a thing
so wicked and that

6. (Villainous) Republicans couldn't be doing the same
wicked thing at the same time with still other machines in other
cities across the state.

No one is saying these things aren't possible, but surely no one so naive as to believe that dishonesty is a thing practiced by just Democrats, or just Republicans; by just men
or women; by just blacks or just whites, in which case,sorting out which Diebold machines were loaded with which malicious software is anybody's guess -- if in fact
even a single machine was.

Returning to paper ballots is certainly possible, but it invites ballot counters working late into the night, to become tired and make errors, etc. It also doesn't
prevent pre-stuffing of ballot boxes , etc., etc., etc.

It just isn't possible to have a 100% honest election because
that would require us to have a 100% honest citizenry. And though we all know God lives in America, and favors us over everyone else in the world, and that He is the only real god, there always has been and always will be "that 10%" (no conspiracy there).

Would the precious time wasted on such conspiracies as yours be used more positively the world wouldn't have to care much who got into office. Visit someone ill and dying in hospital, even if you
don't know them. Take them some wild flowers. Read them a magazine or newspaper or roll them around in their wheelchair in the hospital courtyard for an hour or so in the sun.

Conspiracies are real enough, but there enough conspirators on both sides that things probably balance out as they probably would have anyway.

Meanwhile, the real problem in America is not conspirators but,
as George Wallace noted that "There is a dime's worth of difference between the Republicans and Democrats."

Short of a civil revolution that changes this, the only change we're headed for is the face on the next political elite just voted into office. Now there's a conspiracy worth pursuing.

[Stu]

The editors statment is some what misleading. Please read the following report

Diebold Voting Machine Contractor Executive Has Criminal Background
Company responsible for machines throughout New Hampshire directed by convicted drug dealer

Thursday, Jan 10, 2008

It has been revealed that a high ranking executive at the company that was contracted to program all of New Hampshire's Diebold voting machines has a criminal record and has previously defended the illegal act of "swapping out" memory cards for the machines during live elections.
The revelations, which were uncovered by investigative journalist and vote fraud expert Bev Harris of Blackboxvoting.org and announced yesterday on the Alex Jones show, once again plunge Diebold and the controversial electronic voting systems into the spotlight.
Harris reports that Ken Hajjar, the Marketing and Sales Director at LHS Associates was arrested, indicted, and pleaded guilty to "sale / CND" (sale of controlled narcotic drugs) and sentenced to 12 months in the Rockingham County Correctional facility, and fined $2000. As things go for the politically connected, he was then given a deferred sentence and $1000 of his fine was suspended.
LHS Associates is a private company that counted over four fifths of the New Hampshire vote with no oversight whatsoever and also holds Diebold contracts for Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Vermont.
Harris exclusively revealed some of the details on the Alex Jones show yesterday as she was still awaiting triple confirmation on the information and a full copy of the criminal record from a source who was investigating Hajjar regarding a separate matter.
"They program every single voting machine in New Hampshire, Connecticut, almost all of Massachusetts, Vermont, and Maine." Harris comments. "But did state officials in five New England states ever do a criminal background check on this company's executives? Do the laws of these five states even ALLOW them to hire convicted criminals for services paid for by the state? What about over 500 local towns and municipalities?"
The story becomes even more compelling given comments made by Ken Hajjar himself in a recent interview as he revealed that he totes memory cards around in the trunk of his car and defends the concept of swapping out memory cards during live elections!
Other LHS staff members we spoke with, including Mike Carlson and Tom Burge, provided similar comments. They said they would open machines up during an election and swap memory cards as needed. This is illegal under Connecticut law and Deputy Secretary Mara told us she has since informed LHS that such actions were in violation of Connecticut election laws.
"In 2006, as Hajjar argued in favor of their policy to change cards during elections, I asked him about about the laws which govern chain of custody issues. His response: "I mean, I don't pay attention to every little law. It's just, it's up to the Registrars. All we are is a support organization on Election Day".
He said he had three memory cards in the trunk of his car and, in the event they had to be used, the chain of custody issues wouldn't matter since, "once you run the [pre-election] test deck through, you're golden"."

Bev Harris has also asked for complaints filed on a threat allegedly made in recent years to a New Hampshire woman, and any other reports for Hajjar or LHS owner John Silvestro. The pair grew up together in Lawrence, Massachusetts before moving to Londonderry, New Hampshire.
As we detailed in our report on Tuesday, John Silvestro has been at the center of a long-running public dispute in trying to deflect accusations made by hacker Harri Hursti that the voting machines are wide open to tampering and can easily be rigged.
Video of John Silvestro as he tangles with Harri Hursti recently surfaced on the web:
The Hursti/Silvestro saga formed the centerpiece of the recent 80 minute HBO film "Hacking Democracy".
The new revelations concerning LHS may prove even more explosive in the wake of Tuesday's New Hampshire results vastly differing from the pre-election polls and the emergence of clear widespread evidence of vote fraud involving the machines.
If the allegations are accurate, it won't be the first instance of Diebold employing a convicted felons to run its ballot printing operations.
Harris previously revealed that an embezzler named Jeffrey W. Dean, who specialized in sophisticated alteration of records of computerized systems, was a programmer of voting systems.
Dean was the senior vice president of Global Election Systems and a director of the company previous to Diebold's takeover in 2002. Despite Diebold's claim that Dean left the company when they took over it was later revealed that they retained Dean as a consultant.
Dean and his prison buddy John Elder, who did five years for cocaine trafficking, ran a ballot plant on the West coast and were also responsible for writing vote tallying software. Harris' research has further shown that Global Election Systems/Diebold vote machines were specifically built to allow tampering.
"It's weird, these guys are not even allowed to vote because they are convicted felons!" Harris commented yesterday.
Related Articles:

[Prescott]

come on folks, its obvious the whole thing is a scam, there is no difference between the republocrats or demopublicans. Why does every alternative point of view get shot down in flames with the derogatory term 'Conspiracy Theories'?
Go Figure, your grandchildren's freedom is as stake, they will be born into a world where individuality is nowhere and the brainchip is considered cool, as well as being filmed 24 hres a day. Wake up people, the world is being run by deeply sick and blackmailed individuals.

[Gordon Alexander]

I really am getting bored comatose by the coverage given to the American Primaries. How much coverage would any of our mid-term elections get over there?

I'm sure I speak for the vast number, maybe even the majority of perfectly intelligent British readers for whom this whole thing is simply little more than just "a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing".

[Bruce]

I don't have much time for George Bush, but I always like him a little better after reading the spittle-flecked rantings of those who hate him. Oh, and vis a vis 2004: the only *documented* instances of fraud in that election all benefited *Democrats.* See in particular the hinjinks in East St. Louis and those involving the "progressive" organization ACORN.

[bill]

Bush's victory in Florida was confirmed by a complete recount sponsored by the Miami Hearld. The loss of Florida was the result of Ralph Nader's drawing votes that would have went to Gore. Also Gore would have won if he won his home state.

[Mary]

THis is to Michael Stein's post: "isn't Diebold under strict Republican control?"
You have to understand just HOW badly the Repubs. in this country want Hillary to be the Democrat's candidate. If she is - the Democrat's, once again, WILL lose the White House.

[Garry]

Oh boy, another opportunity to bash America! Don't you people have anything better to do with your time. Probably not. You are way to busy find faults with the US.

[Dan]

Voting machines were not used in NH: please see the quote below.

Obama's not most unusual name on NH ballots
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/
2008/01/obamas_not_most_unusual_name_o.html
by Frank James

When New Hampshire voters go to the polls today, they will use paper ballots, not the computerized voting machines that have come under scrutiny because of their alleged vulnerabilities to hacking and glitches.

And here are samples of the Democratic ballot and the Republican ballot.

Reading through the sample ballots, Sen. Barack Obama doesn't have the most unusual name. That would go to "Vermin Supreme" a street theater artist who's on the Republican ballot.

[Matt in Florida]

A conspiracy of one is the best. Much larger, and they start leaking information.

The biggest voting conspiracies confirmed in modern US history involved LBJ and Kennedy, both Democrats. Despite all the shrill yelling, every Florida recount conducted by (let's face it) multiple liberal newspapers concluded that Bush won in 2000.

But, let's not forget that Al Gore sued in Florida to prevent nearly 15,000 ballots from overseas military personnel from being counted...because the military typically votes conservative. The liberal Florida State Supreme Court ordered the recount, in defiance of state law. The US Supreme Court only intervened to block the Florida Supreme Court from intervening in current Florida law and changing the voting standard after the fact. Katharine Harris tried to impartially enforce the laws CURRENTLY ON THE BOOKS.

This is the general difference between liberals and conservatives: respect for the law. If a conservative loses, generally he/she will concede the fight gracefully. If a liberal loses, the cries of "Conspiracy!" or "Unfair!" or "I'm suing!" start to multiply.

What happened in New Hampshire? Who knows? People may have lied to exit pollsters---it's been shown that the race and gender of the pollster influences the answer by the voter. In 2000 and 2004, laziness of the pollsters or the desire to concentrate where the most people lived resulted in exit polling data suggesting a Democrat was going to win. But when exit pollsters concentrate their efforts in cities (instead of using a stratified random sampling strategy), the result is that more liberal voters are polled more often, which results in a skewed poll. Conservatives are also often forced "into the closet" by fears of repercussions at work or in their social lives (just ask any Hollywood or academic conservative like myself), which could result in them lying to exit pollsters.

Barak Obama's strongest support is from young voters. Unfortunately, young voters are the most likely to skip voting, particularly if the polls indicate that their favored candidate is going to win in a landslide. "He'll win anyway, so why bother voting?" may have been the thought that doomed him in New Hampshire.

But an equally plausible explanation for the Clinton win in New Hampshire is the independent streak of their voters. When did New Hampshire go with the most popular candidate? McCain won in 2000, and Buchanan in 1996, but neither won their party's nomination.

[Rlloyd97]

May years ago "Not the Nine o clock news" published an annual with a big splash front cover story " THE SHAH IS HE REALY DEAD? story page 3"
on page three tucked at the bottom in small print was one word. "yes"

This is the same story except the word is "no"

[Lori]

I believe that the votes were definitely tampered with! Come on people! I interact with many people regularly, and so many ask my opinion about politics and other things in the business I own.
True, there are some Hillary supporters, but.............so many more really don't like her. Not only as a candidate, but also a person! Not to mention, the Clintons have a "reputation", and I am not at all surprised!

[Omar]

@Brian Napier

Stop lying Sir. On the issue of Choice he received the highest rating possible from Planned Parenthood for more than 5 straight years.

He has flipped flopped on the war. In fact he has remained consistent. EVERY year he has been in DC he has tried to bring in legislation that will bring the troops home. If you want flippers look at Edwards and Clinton. Mr. Obama has remained very consistent in that regard. As long as the Congress fails to bring the troops home he can't vote against the funding that would be political suicide in this country.

If you want one reason why Hillary won NH look at your candidate for his along with Barack's attitude toward her.

[Marcia]

people were embarrassed to tell pollsters that they were voting for Hillary.....thats ridiculous, as we have seen in the past, these elections are taken by thugs, ie. the thousands of people who were banned from voting in Florida / Jeb Bush. To say people were embarrassed just shows me that your head is in the clouds

[Ollie]

3rd Column wrote: "one thing we do know is that Bush with the help of his brother Jed stole the presidency from Gore in 2004"

You know, these Bush brothers are even more dastardly than we thought - they managed to steal the presidency in 2004 from Gore, even though John Kerry was the Democratic candidate. How's that for a conspiracy?

[kepha maruti]

i am a kenyan and i am currently dealing with violence due to disputed presidential election results in december. you mean there is election fraud in AMERICA?

[Daphne Kenward]

I think the Hillary Camp did exactly that to win the Election in NH, I think if that is the case it shows that H Clinton should not be trusted to run the country in such an important position. After what happen in the case of Bush who stole the election and then get it handed to him by the supreme court. Corruption in politics is what is making it so hard to get rid of politican who are not suitable for the Job.

[M. Randolph Kruger]

Well now here we go again. Bush stole the election in 04? Seems that a little lady in Palm Beach County said that, "I am willing to go to jail" to ensure that Gore got elected.... She did. Seems that the punch card ballots that were dimpled, dangling and punched chads were just that. The only way to get a dimple or dangling is if you stuff three of them into a holder and hit them through. The first one punches through, the second one will either punch or dangle, and the last one dimples.

Its a punch card and not something you have to use a shot gun to get thru. Its DESIGNED to punch through. The only way to get a dangler or dimple is by cheating. Thats the reason we got rid of them.

Then we can also cover provisional voting since the UK doesnt understand our processes. All votes will be counted, all valid votes will count. Start there. Okay-All elections are state elections and they have the right to set up their own voting laws. This includes federal elections. So if the process is corrupt on the front end you get it on the back end. This is where the poll watchers come in. I am widely regarded as the most fair and smoking hot SOB by both the Republicans and Democrats. In fact they both list me as THEIR poll watcher and send me to places where they are worried about fraud. Yes, even though I am a Republican they know that as an ex-military guy that I am one mean bastard about the process. You skew the process you get crooks in office...Rep or Dem.

Provisional votes are for people who dont have voter cards, or ID's or basically fall through the system. They have four years to register to vote or get new cards... Seems that certain elements cant get that done so they vote provisionally. Their names, information, etc are recorded and its a felony to put something down thats false. Its how we got rid of one elected this past year. The dead were voting and well, they got them and put them in jail. Good. So now you know about provisional, and standard voting.

But that not withstanding Palm Beach County and two others had a huge turnout. In fact, they had some 30,000 vote more than were registered to vote. That would seem odd to some but as a poll watcher I would have had kittens right on the spot. Amazing that they were all in a block of votes, they were also all for Al Gore and they were in the boxes neatly stacked. How nice that they all slid in there the same exact way.....

Opening the machines is prohibited by all state laws. I would have called for the marshals right then and I would have stopped the process by court order.

By the way, regarding the 04 election the Miami Herald, NYT and others paid as they do in every election to have the vote recounted. Yes they went thru the chads and danglers and the committee that always says voters are disenfranchised and yes, GWB did win for better or worse by a couple of hundred votes.

So here we go again... clear the tables for action.

[Jessica madele]

I think that after the Republicans stole the vote in 2000 and Bush promised 2b a uniter and promised that he will honor the democrats realising how they really won the majority vote and the delegates that came out as the majory was basicly a result of bias(which i wont go into right now)but my point is that the republicans hate the Clintons with a passion and cant take seeing how successfull the clintons r i mean hillary won New York which she hardly lived in and now shes winning again so they r in distress

[Dick Materson]

Perhaps Mrs. Obama should make a fake crying spell too in an attempt to g raner sympathy. Or perhaps Barrock himself should pullout his hankercheif and begin crying and looking for sympathy. I had enough of the Clintons b.s. during the 90's. If they act this way towards memebers of th eir own party, how can we trust them? They do anything for power.

[Dick Masterson]

Just as Bill Clinton stole the 1992 election, the Clinton machine is trying again to steal this election and it is already working. NH was first. Also note that Hillary, unlike the other Dems supported the Michigan carcas (sic intended) She is power hungry and I don't trust her. Not to mention that she is not electable, not likeable and not qualified.

[Yvin E. Fanfan]

The victory was correct

It is pathetic to detract Hillary's win. Pollsters were undoubtedly innacurate when Senator Obama led his enthusiastic caravan supporters across the state. Reallistically, a major factor in Clinton's victory was the nearly third undecided voters that floated the opinion polls when Obama was expected an easy landslide; and a large numbers of those voters had decided the election in Hillary's favor for her strong campaigning skills.

[Hava burn]

I as a citizen fear for my country i know not of what tomorow brings i am petrified with the path our Democracy is taking how can we sit around with faulty voting machines deciding our future why have we not fixed this problem last time we voted we never found out truthfully who our president was because our voting booths have not been updated in 50 years i think we should have perfect voting machines by now we have advanced in every other area so why are we still so far behind developed countries its sad

[John Doggett]

Fraud? Come on! During the last weekend at the Salem office where I was knocking on over 300 doors, Hillary's volunteers 6,000 of them knocked on over 70,000 doors not to mention substantially more telephone calls than that. Indeed standing at the Londonderry High School polling station at 7:55pm as it was getting ready to close a woman came running up to us and said "I am voting for Hillary; I forgot to vote but the campaign called me 15 minutes ago and here I am"

It is thousands of people like that woman that won Hillary the vote fair and square.

[Hilary Ugorji]

Its with great passion and malanchony i read most of the views here. 'Hilary stole the vote' what a shame. The right wing press forcast were rubbished. Well that reminds me something, no matter how much the press dishes out their hate and sigust against Hilary, The people who knows her better have the final say. Write anything, broadcast anything, even have the so called renown pundits to analysis, critique and debase Hilary Clinton!...Absolute power belongs to the people...We have spoken and we did it very loud.......She's matching to the white house, MBS, FOXNEWS, CNN and co, watch out, She who laughs last, laughs the best. Give her a break, stop dehumanising and assulting her. She's also an American, a woman, a mother and a public servant.