Should the Austrian neighbours have interfered?

The horrifying discovery that an Austrian man has kept his daughter locked in a basement for more than two decades has led to the usual question - what have we come to?

How could the neighbours of Josef F not have known something fishy was going on? How could they have believed his story that his daughter had dumped her children on his doorstep?

There are two points worth making in reply to this.

The first concerns our instinct as a herd. Even if individuals had realised something was odd they might not have done anything about it. Why? Because of what social psychologists call pluralistic ignorance.

Being unsure what was happening each neighbour wouldn't have wanted to erroneously made accusations. Each person would have figured that the situation might be clearer to someone else and that, if it was, that other person would do something about it.

The Times leader makes this point this morning, drawing a parallel with the Stephen Wills case - the stricken cyclist left in the road as motorists swerved round him. I have written about this too, linking it with the Kitty Genovese case.

My second point is a little harder in the circumstances.

It is this - were the neighbours actually so wrong?

I hazard that instances of people imprisoning others in dungeons in their house are rare - even in Austria. Therefore if neighbours made a habit of interfering when the bloke next door behaved oddly they would generally be sticking their nose in when something entirely innocent was going on.

Given that such interference would almost never uncover a scandal and almost always involve unwelcome intrusion into someone else's business, isn't the case of Josef F, however shocking and disgraceful, a cost that has to be born to preserve a society with freedom and privacy?

I must say that encouraging Austrians to be more interfering and less respectful of other's individual freedom makes me nervous. On the whole, I don't think it would be a good thing.

Now, it may prove the case that the neighbours knew more than they were letting on and if this is so then condemnation is reasonable.

But hard cases make bad law. Terrible though this affair is, a general rule of intervening in one's neighbours' affairs might be worse overall.

Comments

[james hazan]

I understand that Austrians will be Soul Searching. Basement Searching is more advisable

[Lori]

I disagree. Normally, here in the U.S., the custody of babies has to be transfered with court hearings. For the authorities to investigate should be merely an inconvenience to the innocent, but in this case, could have saved the children's lives wasted and damaged.

[Rachelle]

Re: The spouse, Rosemarie Pritzl, just how much width versus depth intelligence do you need to live in a house for some 25 years, and not realize that there's an area of the house that is inaccessible for some reason? Also, babies tend to cry -- never heard a sound. Incredible.

[Vesna]

How could the social security and municipal authorities not even look into the story of children dumped on the door step? How can the custory of children be passed on without any legal process? Are we supposed to believe that the mother of the imprisoned and raped girl didn't have a clue and believed that a 19yr old suddenly leaves home and keeps dumping babies on the door step? Nobody heard screams of a woman in labour? Well done for the hospital staff to be persistent in insisting to see the mother of the ill teenager. Are the Austrians ready to provide the enormous amount of attention to the damaged children who have emerged from the cellar in order to prevent any future social trouble there?

[Martin]

@Lori:
From the reports Ive read, the room was heavily sound proofed and was sealed with an extremely thick door which required a code to open. The door itself was hidden behind a bookcase as i recall. The room was a secret basement room which nobody knew about besides Mr F.

I think that explains the lack of babies cries and unaccessible areas of the house, unless of course you frequently check behind bookcases for hidden dungeons in your own home that is :)

I do find the apparant ease with which the childrens custody was arranged very strange, however are you suggesting that child services rip apart the house of all prospective parents in search of this kind of thing?

This is a disturbing and shocking case obviously, but its an extraordinary and extremely rare situation. I dont think anyone can critise the neighbours or child services for not suspecting this kind of thing.

[Frans Hovens]

Elisabeth Pritzl claims to have been sexually abused by her father from the age of 11. And now her mother, Rosemarie, wants others to believe she never ever noticed anything? You probably have to be an Austrian police officer to buy this one.

[David]

Why is there a photograph of this man in swimming trunks on the front page of this website? Are we meant to look at his wearing speedos on a thai beach as sure signs of latent paedophilia and/or incest?

[Jo]

Perhaps write the story the other way around?

Who was the person who noticed something was wrong?

Which small, probably quite unthinking, action caused something to unravel and enough to come out into the open?

[No Name]

It is not a coincidence that most children held in captivity are female. Even in seemingly high functioning societies, the objectification of women as sex toys/play things pervades on every single level of social existence. That is coupled with the denial that mothers inact when their daughters are being raped in their homes. Only when men respect women as true equals will this kind of behaviour truly become obsolete.

On a related note, there is no way that mother didn't know what her husband was doing all that time - in the back of her mind she must have. No man is that detail oriented to hide that kind of thing. I assume she was too afraid to 'break up' her family and threw herself into taking care of the kids that were 'given' to her. The rest was sheer denial.

And what about the siblings? They never questioned? never looked for the sister? That seems so so strange to me - maybe they had been sexually abused too?

[sarah]

The Austrian policeman keeps insisting that it's illogical that Fritzl's wife would have had anything to do with it. I was abused as a child over ten years in my own Catholic house, while mother and siblings lived there too. I presume she knew her husband had nightly wandering habits. Surely Mrs Fritzl too must have wondered about where her husband was going off to so often, why he had stashes of food and clothing?

[Rachelle]

In response to Martin.

One need not be suspicious in nature to wonder what's behind a heavy bookshelf in one's own home, a bookshelf which Josef F had to move himself on the occasion... if only to provide food that was less than two weeks old. Yes, I would wonder and ask him at the very least. And nothing in his behaviour of 24 years was suspicious. When did he accomplish his 'deeds'? Strictly when the wife was asleep or away?

[mita]

I wonder about the siblings of Elizabeth. Why didn't they look for her, involve police or hire private detectives.

[peach]

Some questions about this case that hopefully the media will get answers to:

1) Who was the anonymous tipper? Did s/he know something?

2) Were the children/grandchildren abused as well?

3) What was the sound proof room for? Was that the rape/birthing chamber? Was that where Elisabeth went and her children were sent when they cried?

[Elaine Bolton]

I don't understand how the mother wouldn't have noticed some unusual occurances surrounding the necessity of provisions being supplied to 4 people. Wouldn't she have noticed more groceries being bought than brought into the home? Wouldn't she ever have seen some being taken into the basement only to dissappear. I have a hard time understanding how she couldn't know.

[tulip]

What I don't understand is why Elisabeth with her 2 grown children and the third child, couldn't have overpowered or tricked the father into letting them go, who is after all, 73 years old...
They may all have been frail and malnourished as well as scared, but after 10 years she could have been willing to try something or at least come up with a plan with even a smallest possibility of escape... After 20 years, she could surely have not had much to lose as it was either a life inside a cramped dungeon or one last chance to freedom?

[ciccino]

Austria must be the only place that one can legally adopt a baby found on his doorstep, then do it two more times without the authorities having any serious interest in where these children came from. Also, we know that in most cases of long term sexual abuse of children, the wife/mother is usually complicit at least to the point of silence. Neighbors thought this was all quite normal, obviously. A pox on the whole community.

[Jan Besseling]

Can you imagine if the father would have died suddenly. His daughter and her children would have starved to dead in the celler.
Who fed them when he was away on vacation?

[Gerry]

If the holocaust can appear in your midst without being noticed, why should a few extra babies in a basement cause a stir?

[George]

Living here in Austria, and being a foreigner, first thing I noted was the people's lack of social intercourse. I've been 3 years and don't know my neighbors at all, they are not interested.
It all explains why Josef Fritzl could get away with his heinous act so long, and it raises the question of the possibility of there being many more other similar cases yet.
I can not possibly understand the victim's mother lack of interest on the welfare and whereabout of her own daughter, and how they bought the stories of dumped babies! How could it be that only Fritzl saw them first, three times?
The Austrians need to change their social attitudes, interact more, and be warmer and more open.
The lack of curiosity is amazing in the country of creative greats like Mozart.

[Dave]

What is it about that culture that is capable of bringing the worst of humanity? not that Austrians are bad people by any means, but I find this case along with other cases and the fact that Hitler was Austrian interesting since that is a country with only 20 million people.

[christina Hemming]

The man is sick, the wife is sick and stupid, the neighbors, ignorant, the system is sick. Get some help, educate the masses on incest, its long overdue.

[bob]

@Lori

"an inconvenience to the innocent" Some stupid, social services busybody turning up your doorstep and telling you how to raise your child is an 'inconvenience'? What happened to being innocent until proven guilty? Oh no, you don't have that in the US, do you?

[Patricia Pemberton-James]

One of the descriptions given of this monster is that is he 'a control freak' - my sense is that his wife is probably so brutalised by all the years she spent with him she has become a virtual automatom - it's doubtful that she any longer even thinks for herself. Fear is so corrosive it is an ideal tool of control - witness death camps and abused spouses who stay with their abuser.

[Judith]

How did he get supplies of food, clothes etc to keep this secret family in and out of the house without his wife noticing?

[siburp]

Due credit must be given to the person/persons who noticed that something was wrong leading to the expose of the tragedy. The questions posed by Jo have to be answered so that public education value can save more young women who are being enslaved by those like Josef F. who needs young captives to satisfy their sexual needs.

How many silent sufferers throughout the world I wonder?

[Rasmus Thomsen]

The question of 'what have we come to?' should be put the other way around. Our ideal person is the one who helps those in need. And apparently we haven't come to that and the good Samaritan remains an ideal. We're still beasts who could care less for the wellness of others outside our family group and society is a structure set up by common effort to lessen our bestiality (and trade items of course). It was not so many years ago it was noted that anybody could become a Gestapo officer. The stories of bystanders mentioned here seems in line with this thesis.

[seward currie]

here is a country against the seal hunt in canada and let this happen to humans. strange people

[Susan]

It's rather incredible how many of you armchair lawyers are unable to understand the words 'soundproofed
room'.

Yes, babies cry. Who is going to hear them crying in a soundproofed room? Only the other people who are locked in the room with them, and that would be the mother and siblings.

How many of you know exactly what goes on in your home at all times? Not many, I'd wager.

[vrbas]

Those who have kids , would find hard to believe, that it took 19 years for one of the kids to get sick !? Shortly, there was the time, when one of those children need some medical attention, what about vaccination etc... I refuse to believe that somebody else is not involved !
As to, why wife didn't know anything ( if), !? In some European countries, especially Austria and Germany, wife is scared to question any story of Husband, especially when she is wrong, she gets reminded about that in almost daily cases, where children especially girls at young age are being tough to cook and do all house work like mother.........Not all woman have guts to confront their husband like in the western world.
If wife did know about case, its possible that... When Elisabeth was abused at the age of 11, she was blamed to starting everything, and in mothers eyes come to cold reaction, and therefore, deserve punishment whatever father choose.

[mark]

Only the lazy Austrian cops would believe the Mother didn't know. She knew all right... 24 years of no sex while he was away doing his evil in the basement... Come on Cops wake up! What did she think he was doing? Tunneling his way to Germany? Didn't she she notice the huge quantities of earth he dug out of there? It's not rocket science SHE KNEW.

[Carole]

The basement dungeon was dug out at some time. Did no-one ever question what this space was for - there must have many cubic feet of earth removed, it couldn't have been a secret operation, and then he had to transport the rubber padding and all furnishings into it. It couldn't have been done in a few minutes or a few days - it was a major house reno. Did his wife never go downstairs or wonder about the space? The whole scenario stinks - doesn't smell right at all!

how can the wife didnt know anything when he went shoping and came home with 10 bags and 3 went missing how did the bills go higher who deliverd the babys not him when all these years buying nappies she knew when he went out she must have looked outside the window to find he disapeared into thin air

[tulip]

I find it impossible to believe that the mother was dumbly unaware of what was going on from the year her daughter disappeared to the present. Most mothers do not give up hope, even 'bad' mothers of young girls like Scarlett, who was murdered in Goa, will do whatever they have to seek justice and find some answers. How could this docile Austrian woman not care, let alone not intuitively 'feel' that something was deeply wrong all those years?
I think the Austrian police (country bumpkins more like) need to act more professional and question the mother under suspicion, instead of trying to bury the case in their haste to lessen the tarnished image of their precious country further.

[leila Levine]

How did no-one hear his underground diggings when he enlarged the basement? And, did he not come back dirty after said digging?

Is his wife moronic not to question the arrival of the children they "took in"? Don't the local police question said arrivals?

I'm flummoxed.

[maggie]

It seems odd that this old man spent most of his days in the cellar, where no one was ever allowed, and no one bothered to question what he was doing in there? If after 20 years of spending every waking hour inside your cellar and then having nothing in hand as proof of 'work' you did and being secretive about it, wouldn't that count as the least bit creepy?

[andreas]

The only thing that matters right now, is that we make sure this guy spends the rest of his life in prison, and that elizabeth and her children have support. PERIOD.

[Carson]

It's completely believeable that Fritl's wife, tenant, neighbors and guests missed this.

I have seen numerous Austrians who lived under 1/4 mile from a death camp spend years there, see trains come and go, see smoke, smell the stench, and have "no idea" what was going on. Having "no idea" is part of the Austrian heritage -- they have generations practiced at "looking away."

[Andrew Milner]

The Concentration Camps were invisible, too. See nothing, hear nothing, do nothing.

[devorgilla]

Let's not be so smug. Fred and Rosemary West KILLED and PHYSICALLY TORTURED their victims, including their OWN daughter Heather. The damage here is psychological (apart from Elizabeth's rape). What do the cases have in common? CELLARS. The Austrians built nuclear shelters in abundance. It's something of a national fetish. Without the physical means to carry out such crimes they could not happen. This man Frizl is a monster, but he tried to save the sick daughter now in hospital.

If there were more cellars there would be more of this here too.

Anyone remember The Strange Enigma of Caspar Hauser? Wasn't he Austrian?

[Joan Moira Peters]

While this case in Austria has been uncovered, we may be deluding ourselves if we think that the same type of imprisonment of women and children used as sex slaves, is unlikely to be occurring anywhere else on the planet. In cities from Paris to Auckland, and in the countryside, there are probably many such victims secretly locked up in basements or attics with no means of escape, and with no means of contacting the outside world.
As the Austrian case has shown, to keep victims locked up in absolute secrecy - perhaps with soundproofing and remote controlled concrete doors - costs money and so this type of imprisonment is most likely to occur in the developed world.
Some years back, at university, I elected to do research study on the global trafficking of women and children into the sex slave trade. I considered this to be the worst form of exploitation and whenever the opportunity has arisen, in political writing and discussions, I have endeavoured to bring the plight of these victims to the fore.
Having realized the potential for such exploitation to be extensive and, moreover, hidden, led me to suggest in the piece I wrote at the time, that on occasion, without prior warning, hotels, for example, should be emptied out. (Just think how relatively easy it would be for criminals to imprison women victims in cheap hotels in the run-down areas of New York, for example, or any city, or, who knows, even in obscure upmarket hotels there may be women sex slaves who never see the light of day?) So upon the order of a suitably appointed authority and in the manner of a fire practice,
a building could be evacuated, sealed off and all occupants temporarily detained for interview. The aim would be to ascertain that no one in the building was being held against their will. Also, the entire premises would be thoroughly searched for evidence of hidden spaces for enslaving victims.
However, the scale and prevalence of sexual exploitation in the current era - with hundreds of thousands of women and children being trafficked into the sex slave industry in the West each year - is such that searches should obviously not be restricted to hotels but should apply to every type of building, including private homes, and this case in an Austrian private home confirms the necessity of such a strategy.
In poor countries it is possible that such sexual slavery could, perhaps, take place in the back rooms of brothels, yet it would be unlikely that such a degree of secrecy could be maintained, as in the Austrian case.
Those poor women exploited as prostitutes in poverty-stricken areas of the planet, are none the less victims, and also need to be rescued. On a recent televised broadcast one such victim was interviewed and related how she had been abducted as a child and forced into prostitution and had been kept in the brothel ever since, where she was still working at the age of sixty, still hoping to be rescued. This is an example of the plight of victims whose sexual exploitation is not so secretive yet who are still enslaved by their owners.
A recent televised documentary drew attention to a praiseworthy scheme, in Nepal, initiated some years ago and still run by Mrs Koirala, who received an award for her work. Women are not only rescued from regional traffickers and brothels, the scheme works preventatively, intercepting girls embarking on journeys, encouraging them and persuading their families too, that they should stay put if the prospect of their ending up as victims of traffickers seems likely.
Another award winner is Ms Somaly Mam, of Cambodia, who as
a child, had been sold as a sex slave. Her award (which was reported in The Times), was for her "dangerous struggle" to rescue girls sold to brothels in Cambodia.
In Cambodia, Ms Mam, like Mrs Koirala, founded a charity which provides safe houses for girls saved from brothel slavery. Even
Ms Mam's own daughter had been a victim after being kidnapped, raped and sold.
During my study referred to, I also formed the opinion that the legalization of brothels in the West, institutionalized the slavery of prostitution and that the women and their social milieu are likely to be victims of criminal syndicates which doubtless have ways to surrepticiously coerce women through threats, such as violence. Another recent televised documentary was about an eastern European country and drew attention to the way women can be forced into prostitution. The documentary filmed a play which was enacted by locals to warn village girls what could happen to them, and illustrated how a girl was forcibly injected with drugs, so that she became unconscious and was then transported and sold to traffickers in a drugged state, presumably so that she would be malleable and potentially able to be manipulated through drugs.
All these kinds of reports underline the need for spot checks to be made, to:
1) Rescue victims.
2) Deter criminals from thinking that there is anywhere they can imprison their victims for sexual exploitation, which will not be discovered.
If the government in Britain, for example, were to address the nation through the media, explaining the liklihood of such hidden sexual slavery occurring, not only in the brothels of the criminal underworld, but also in private homes, then perhaps the general public would be willing to countenance a policy which might result in their homes and cellars being randomly selected for checks.
So what kind of policing could be given the responsibility for such
checks even on private homes?
Perhaps a female-led squad of policemen, 'Officials for the Prevention of Vice'?
It is relevant to note that Saudi Arabia reportedly has a police
'For the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice'. It would be useful to know the jurisdiction of its mandate, and whether in that nation, any imprisoned victims of sexual slavery have been discovered. Since Islamic conservatism regarding women's freedom in society is frequently criticized by Westerners, care should be taken, as in all cases, to carefully investigate any doubtful claims made, to detect any sign of falsification.
It was heartening to see on the news that quite recently in Britain, some girls were rescued from traffickers in the sex slave trade. The authorities regarded the girls as victims and they were taken to a place of safety.
Yet that must have been a case of relatively overt sexual exploitation.
Even if the neighbours in this Austrian case, had been vigilant, they would not have noticed anything amiss, since tragically, neither the daughter, nor the children imprisoned with her, ever emerged from their dungeon into public view nor were their calls for help ever heard.

[I Sadler]

Is the mother really ignorant or just plain dumb? Knowing whats happening and yet kept silent? Has Elizabeth, the victim been drugged all these years?? Hadnt she had a chance to escape or at least a plan for escape for the sake of the children?? Is the social service system in Austria and in Europe crumbling??

[Moneim Aly]

It's baffling, incredible and astounding; How are we not to believe that nobody knew about this horror for 24 years and all that's involved of child bearing and rearing etc, etc. How could Elizabeth dispose of the rubbish. Obviously the monster scruitinized their diisposals. How about the didposable nappies (diapers) in the garbage? Could the (WIFE/Mother) or garbage men kow nothing about it? I do think other people are involved. Or...

[zuhri issa]

i think its the western culture ... its look like bombing house and killing family??? whats the defferant?!??!?

[Moses]

The father had planning permission to build a bunker, funded by the Austrian government. Elizabeth has revealed to police that her father told her that if she tried to escape (with/without children) he would fill the bunker with gas. Would imagine she then had no option but to 'go along' with him even if only for the sake of her children.

[R.Carneiro]

oh heavens, how could this happen ? numerous questions, and buts and if's. could elizabeth escape by tricking this monster ? could Rosemarie do something ? could her sibling do something ? etc. these 3 kids and elizabeth must have died a living death everyday for 24 years. oh god, i beg dont allow such a thing (locked in dungeon and type) to happen. i get a chill thinking what if F had met with accident, or died. these 4 persons would have died starving. 24 years ?? have mercy lord.

[Jane]

who deliver Elizerbet F

[lynne]

My heart goes out to Elizabeth and her family.She was badly let down by people like her mother who should have protected her.After all Fritzl did serve time for rape.His wife must of known what kind of man she married even if she did,nt know her daughter was in the cellar.Abuse happens in families when people keep quiet and don,t ask questions.

[Ray Harvey]

Why is there no Times 'Have Your Say' on articles regarding Fritzl ?

There are perverted people in every country; the worrying things here are the Austrian police and government. Yet again a case where they are trying to brush things under the carpet. It makes one think that there is a peadophile network in Austria that contains people at high levels within the government and tgovernment services.

[vrbas]

This case should be handled by international police, not AUSTRIAN!
Don't you ever forget, how good they are to cover up and protect people such is Kurt Waldheim, a war criminal and NAZI officer, who committed crimes at KOZARA,and even become president of UNITED NATIONS. Its very disturbing when police is not prepared to question wife !?
It is unbelievable, that it took 19 years for one of the kids to get sick!? I refuse to believe, that wife did not know!

[Helena]

Elisabeth Fritzl mother's (Rosemarie) had to know of her daughter's misery.

How come the father feed Elizabeth and their children for 24 years without Josef's wife knowledge?! (they were in the same house!!! for instance, how bought the groceries?)

How come he was building more rooms in the cellar without being noticed?!

He's wife had to know!!!

Rosemarie also didn't know about her daughter being raped since she was 11 years old???
Their neighbors knew that Josef was a Sex Offender. And his wife didn't found strange that Elisabeth runaway from home twice?? (before she actually "disappeared" - when she was 18 and could finally accused her rapist)
He was probably also raping the new kids.

I don't believed in this kind of women that "don't know" what their husbands are doing in their own house!
Is she deaf? Is she blind? Is she also a "prisoner" in her own bed? (that she can not move or, at least, anonymously call the police)

Josef's wife is as guilty as her husband.

Remember... 24 years!!! (and Rosemarie never found anything suspicious??? Not even the babies at the front door...) I don't believe!

And, of course, the social workers should have investigated Josef's life before allowed him to adopt any children. (he was in prison before for a similar crime)

It's about time for Europe (EU) to have an updated "List" in the Internet with all the Sex Offenders. (who knows if Madeleine is still in a cellar in Portugal, Spain, England, Belgian or Austria?!)
We have to protect our children first.

Do you know that, there are no Boarders between European countries?
(no Police or any kind of inspection at the frontiers)
It's the "paradise" for criminals.
(that's why Madeleine, and other children, disappeared so easily)

[Helena]

In fact there are pedophiles everywhere. For instance, in Portugal it's still on trial a Pedophile case that involves Politicians (including a man that was Ambassador in New York), the Church, and a very important and respectful TV host. (the country is in shock)
They are all very important men and there will be no "Justice".

The European Union President is Portuguese - Durão Barroso.

[kevin]

"I must say that encouraging Austrians to be more interfering and less respectful of other's individual freedom makes me nervous. On the whole, I don't think it would be a good thing."

The last time the Austrians got out of their box, with Hitler & all, was a bit of disaster wasn't it?

[Caroline]

It's incredible to read the rascist comments here. For me this is not a uniquely Austrian phenomenon, this is a story of fear and abuse. I expect that Fritzl's wife did indeed know what was going on, but after years of living in an abusive relationship, she was afraid; afraid of telling on her husband just like many other people who fear retribution from their partners. The other "upstairs" children also lived in this climate of fear and possible abuse. The longer it goes on and you are complicit in it by not telling, the harder it is to tell. The same applies to the neighbours.

This is simply a tragic tale of an horribly abusive man who has forfeited his right to a place in society. This could have happened anywhere in the world. Such abuse, albeit on a lesser scale happens all around us, every day. Bullying, domineering, abusive behaviour when was the last time you experienced it and let it wash over you.

[spring rain]

No, WRONG CAROLINE, THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH AUSTRIAN NATIONAL CHARACTERISTICS OF BEING SELF-ABSORBED, AND NOT BOTHERING TO DO ANYTHING OR ASK QUESTIONS WHEN THEY SEE THINGS THAT OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT RIGHT.

As for the groceries-have you not been reading? Fritzl, who clearly was purely Nazi evil SS (and folks, in case you don't know your history, Austria welcomed the Nazis with open arms) WAS STEALING FOOD FROM HIS RENTORS, AS WELL AS CHARGING THEM EXORBITANT ELECTRICAL BILLS TO GIVE TO HIS FAMILY IN THE CELLAR.

I tell you, cutting off Fritzl's private parts, slowly, very slowly, would be too good for the man.

And as for Elizabeth not doing anything all these years-have you all never heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? Clearly Elizabeth as a hostage for so many years, came to a kind of accomodation with her father, a kind of loyalty to him, which is a psychological coping response to hostage taking and also battered wife syndrome.

I'm not sure that the western world has heard of anything quite this bizarre and gruesome since the concentration camps of WWII. And happening as it did right after the other Austrian girl had been taken hostage for 8 years (but at least she was not locked up underground, and he took her places as well) I THINK THIS COULD WELL BE AN AUSTRIAN THING, AND THAT THE AUSTRIANS SHOULD DO WELL, WITH THEIR HISTORY OF PSYCHO-ANALYSIS, TO EXAMINE THE AUSTRIAN CHARACTER IN LIGHT OF THIS HORROR.

[Terrible]

I live in Brisbane Australia and am shocked to the core reading this unbelievable story. It has kept me awake at night. I find it very hard to believe no-one knew anything strange was going on. I think no-body wanted to stick their neck out. I think this man Josef should be made to spend the rest of his life in the cellar, alone, without television.

[DawnOnYou]

I am just OBSESSED with this story. It's all so very mind-boggling; with all of the details that are available, I still can't seem to wrap my mind around how he kept his operation going for so long. Sadly, at his age, no length of prison term would offer any justice.

I pray that Fritzl's victims adjust promptly and successfully to "normal" life.

[Ian]

Joan Moira Peters says

"So upon the order of a suitably appointed authority and in the manner of a fire practice,
a building could be evacuated, sealed off and all occupants temporarily detained for interview. The aim would be to ascertain that no one in the building was being held against their will"

and later..

"perhaps the general public would be willing to countenance a policy which might result in their homes and cellars being randomly selected for checks"

Just read that back for a second, then remind yourself that the vast majority of people are innocent of these crimes.

Do you honestly wish to live in a country where the police randomly turn up at the homes of perfectly innocent people and turf everyone out into the street whilst the place is searched?

There has rarely been a comment which deserves Franklin's famed statement "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

Your "solution" would make every last one of us live in the worst kind of slavery.

[Here is what should happen]

This girl Elizabeth was one of 7 children. Were any of her siblings abused as well? Will any of them come forward to make statements about their childhood and give their thoughts on their father and long lost sister?
I hope someone creates a website where people can donate money for Elizabeth and her children. They deserve to live every day with the best that money can buy and to have the best psychological treatment and physical rehabilitation possible for the hell that they went through.
The monster needs to be put back in the dungeon and waterboarded every single day for the rest of his life.

[Michael Cold]

One question!!
What would people say if this happened in our country, the United States??

[Rory]

It is a moral imperative for us - everyone, society, our individual communities - to question why and how people act inhumanely to other people.

Empathy - the ability to be emotionally attuned to other people - is a process that begins in childhood. When a child's emotional development is stunted it results in dysfunction, that stays with that person for life. In some cases it's directed inwards - depression, anxiety, etc. In other cases it's projected outwards, and in it's most depraved form you get Josef Fritzl.

When it happens across an entire generation you get The Third Reich, the Rwandan Genocide, Armenian Genocide and so on. German child-rearing manuals at the turn of the 20th C advocated the brutalization of children to make them disciplined. Up until recently quite it was standard fare in Ireland and Britain to think hitting a child did them no harm.

Empathy and understanding the emotional development of children is the key.

[Rory]

It is a moral imperative for us - everyone, society, our individual communities - to question why and how people act inhumanely to other people.

Empathy - the ability to be emotionally attuned to other people - is a process that begins in childhood. When a child's emotional development is stunted it results in dysfunction, that stays with that person for life. In some cases it's directed inwards - depression, anxiety, etc. In other cases it's projected outwards, and in it's most depraved form you get Josef Fritzl.

When it happens across an entire generation you get The Third Reich, the Rwandan Genocide, Armenian Genocide and so on. German child-rearing manuals at the turn of the 20th C advocated the brutalization of children to make them disciplined. Up until recently quite it was standard fare in Ireland and Britain to think hitting a child did them no harm.

Empathy and understanding the emotional development of children is the key.

[Suaad Ashaer]

The real issue here is that we have siezed to be 'social beings' and got too confused. There are no more social concerns or norms. Everything is permissible as long as tax is paid. No more family life or neighbourly community. to live in total isolation from the others allows for such catastrophies to happen. Is change too late? I personally believe so.

[Lakshman Dalpadado]

First of all we have to get things into perspective

The house concerned is vast a block of flats with underground cellars/bunkers built during the war.

Quite number of lodgers, over a hundred, have stayed in the block.
Fritzl has told that he has his office in the cellars.
He pilfered food, electricity from his tenants .

[Paul Paris]

He was probably breeding the pseudo-grand children for sex as well!

[Paul Paris]

He was probably breeding the pseudo-grand children for sex as well!

[Ian]

To GERRY,

The answer to that is simple: There was no holocaust. Take that Jew crocodile tears and offer them as a drink to your mother.

[Loo]

It has less to do with Austria's 'older' past (WWII) and more to do with its recent past - Natasha k. The same theme runs through both stories - the girl (young woman) goes missing, and the file is ... what? closed?

Do the police never look up cold cases? In Natasha's case a 10-year-old disappears (like Madeline and others) and then it is written off? That is very disturbing. Ditto for the three babies popping up on the door step, in this recent case. Was it still a closed file?

If Austria is so sexist, why was there never any attempt to find the father of these "doorstep babies" before Fitzl adopted them? Again, weird. In Canada you would never be able to adopt a baby without BOTH parents signing over permission. Last I heard, Elizabeth's "permission" letters were missing the supposed cult-father's signature.

[sv]

You are missing one very important thing.
paedohiles are charismatic. They are demon possessed.Their evil eye zooms in, very early, into a childs face, they don't see a child they see how you will look as a grown up are you pretty and if you are pretty.Pretty is a curse, so that anything beautiful becomes their appetite, their sexual selfish appetite.
I do believe that his wife didn't know anything, because, when you are being manipulated everyday, you ar enot a total human being but you become a zombie, she is a typical zombie houswife, who wanted to please her husband, after all the wife needs to know that shw is making her husband 'happy', she needs to be reassured that she is pretty, loving, adorable, dinner is cooked, she needs to score points from her adorable loving husband.
after all that is what a happy housewife's job is to make her husband happy. NOT KNOWING that the devil has two faces. she only saw one face. The ordinary citizen, old fragile, slow, good with his neighbours and so on.
Jekyll and Hyde case.
People have two faces, it's a battle of good and evil.

[kataklizma]

Spring Rain!

Natascha Kampusch was also closed in an undergound dungoen for 8 years. An only in the last year of her being hostage was she taken out of her dungeon from time to time... mainly to clean the house.

[Nate]

"I must say that encouraging Austrians to be more interfering and less respectful of other's individual freedom makes me nervous. On the whole, I don't think it would be a good thing." - D. Finklestein

I rarely post to articles, but was moved by the excerpt quoted above.

I agree with the general point that perhaps the neighbors' reluctance to alert the authorities to something 'fishy' is not necessarily a failure of their part (such as in the the obvious, chilling case of Kitty Ginovese) and that one should avoid irrational accusations in what could reasonably be argued was a case of 'not wanting to get involved in potentially very damning accusations you have no real evidence of'.

Good point, next time stick to it.

However, Mr. Finklestein's collective grouping of the "Austrians", whom we should fear cajoling into being "less respectful of other's individual freedom" (are we thinking of the Austrian, Adolf Hitler, here Mr. Finklestein?), to be a gross, painfully simplistic characterization.

It is flippant, amateur analysis that I do not think furthers the thesis. I do not know you or anything about you Mr. Finklestein, but you do write for The Times, and I would expect better of you and your editors.

- slightly peeved reader

btw - this post is not in anyway related to any previous comment, I have not read them.

[Steve UK]

Abdication of responsibility. Seems to be the most fitting phrase here. For the wife “the husband is in charge of and responsible for everything” (sure……) For the schools who registered these children “all the papers seem in order”, for the police, “no one has recently reported a sex crime by Joseph F”. From the adoption/family courts “it’s perfectly logical children keep getting dropped off at the same location with no follow up”. Thank God a medical professional said “THE BUCK STOPS HERE!”

Accountability helps to build a responsible society. We have all seen the damage done by people blindly following orders, be they given by; Presidents, Chancellors, CEO’s, or even SAT-NAV systems. If people don’t see those playing a part held accountable this sort of abdication of responsibility it will happen again and again. Our children our political & social leaders and ourselves MUST be held accountable for our actions or inactions for the world to become a better place. (or we could just hang him and repeat this next year, and the year after and…..)

[Netty]

It's too good to be true if Rosemarie didn't know what's has been happening for 24 years!!! I do not believe at all for such things.

Does she have a bounding relationship with her own children? could Rosemarie feel something strange gone wrong? 24 years ??? I believe Elizabeth told her when she was raped at 11 years old or even later.

How was the sibling doing? She sensed something was evil about her father right? why she didn't talk to her mum? Rosemarie...where are you?

[nocomment]

what kind of people who do this things? they are absolutely absurd and they should be treated the same way they treated others! mr f should also be in prisoned and then rape by other men!

[Derek]

In my 50 years of adult life I can only recall the 9/11 attacks as having had such a profound effect on my emotions as this terrible story out of Austria has.

A sense of complete disbelief in something that you know HAS happened. A disbelief that such evil can be planned and perpetrated.

From what I have researched on the Internet, especially at www.feralchildren.com it does sadly appear unlikely that Elizabeth and her children will ever be able to lead a "normal" life and I HATE that man with a passion for that situation.

He created his daughter, gave her life, then took that life away from her and replaced it with a living hell.

Please don't anyone try to tell me that there is a God. I bet Elizabeth prayed every day and night to Him but I guess His "to do" diary was full for 24 years.

As for Elizabeths mother, I honestly don't know whether she suspected anything though I think she did. Apparently she, Elizabeth and Elizabeths children are getting on well at the clinic so just try to imagine the betrayal they will feel if/when the mother's "kowledge" becomes apparent to them.

[Boxmoor]

Mt step-father raped me when I was ten yeas old. I was a very small child, not pushy, in fact very quiet and bookish. My mother knew. My sisters knew. But they did not stop it. Instead there was a known silence about i for the next eight ears until I left home. Even then, he came into my life and tried to wreck every relationship I had. But he had money. That is the crux. He had money so nobody locked him up. He was a barristerof-law. My mother simply continued to breed with him and in those 8 yearts she bore 5 children for him.
This was known incest- this was child moletation ag
reed by the amily on order to keep the drunken barrister/criminal lawyer/criminal happy whilst my mother bred his offspring.
People! Thy never can be understood. Mohers! They can be the mos culpable accessories to incest- for money. I think that incestuous fathers should be CASTRATED AND OUT INTO PRISON FOR LIFE.
A lawyer myself now.

[Boxmoor]

I agree with the various comments that neighbours were not to know.
The man was depraved and mentally ill.
The family was dysfunctional. All sexual offenders must be examined for mental illness. It is the only way to screen them. All sexual offenders must go onto a global register.

[SM Hussain]

To TULIP:
The reason why Elizabeth and her kids could'nt have overpowered the criminal Josef is, that not only were they frail and Josef was a powerfully built man who could lug a 300 kg door in place, but because the doors to the dungeon were provided with electronic codes that he had memorized. Killing him would have been suicidal. Apart from this, of the 8 doors to the dungeon, 3 were provided with electronic locks and mechanical locks as well.
It is probable that Kerstin, Elizabeth's daughter, was also raped as well. He could'nt have ignored her because she was already 19. The siblings of Elizabeth may have also been abused as well and I find it shocking that they meekly accepted her disappearance. Did'nt they notice something odd whenever they came to meet their parents? Their silence is utterly disgusting. And now a former tenant of Josef's apartment claims that he knew all along that Josef was abusing his daughter but kept quiet because of fear of eviction. After 4 long years, he finally left the house, why did'nt he go to the police then?
This former tenant, Elizabeth's siblings and the main culprit, Elizabeth's mother are equally responsible as Josef for aiding and abetting the crimes and keeping silent about it.
Next, the Austrian police are a bunch of morons. Even in the Natascha Kampusch case, witnesses clearly told them that Natascha was kidnapped in a white van. They questioned her abductor Wolfgang Priklopil, who had a white van, but "NEGLECTED" to search his dungeon from where she could have been liberated and would not have needed to stay there for 8 long years.
And now Josef wants to dodge jail by claiming insanity. What a tragedy!!!

[Ezra]

An aircraft recently landed in Seychelles with only girls from Eastern Europe as passangers. They were destined to the Labriz resort on the Silhouette Island for rich Arabs. Who cares? Neither the police, the immigration authorities, the airlines! Everybody with some knowledge that something is just no right looks the other way!

[xyz]

Why there is no much report on Elisabeth's siblings reaction to this whole ordeal?

[Yildiz Istanbul]

There's no way and possibility not to know and notice anything, if you live in the same house with someone in the same house for 24 years Mrs Elizabeth Frizl...........
The husband goes to draw plans down in the basement, then he comes upstairs sometime, how he looks like?? The expression in his face, in his external looks?? The way he talks and acts?? Come on, give me a break!! No suspicions all those years?? Who is she or the legal system trying to fool?? Not us, the educated ones!!!!

[Yildiz Istanbul]

Ezra, I am sure Elizabeth's siblings are coming out and telling their stories but the Austrian authorities are trying cover up the whole story with a warm blanket just like they have been for centuries . This is the most horrifying story that has ever come out in the past I don't know how may years..???? I think Rosemarie, the mother of aLL 7 BY jOSEPH and most willing to raise the doorstep found grandchildren sounds very suspicious to me!

[peninah]

I read many comments blaming Elizabeth for not escaping! Hevens sake, this was a SOUND PROOF room. The doors were opened by a code ONLY kept in the evil man's head. This is a man who has authority from his government to build nucler hind out, and the wife has nothing to do with construction. Think better people, our world is ENDING! EVIL DOMINATED!GOD IS FORGOTEN,repent men of this age, turn to God!!!

[peninah]

By the way, how old does it take one to notice things? I thing i read that the upstairs kids were left outside their grandparents house when they were only months old. How on earth would anybody expect such a kid to know anything was wrong! Please be realistic when you question things

[yvonne]

Culturally speaking, it's not just in Austria that a crime like Josef Fritzl's--along with the crimes of the social services system (apathy and neglect) --could occur.
"A society perpetuates itself and its structures by how it
raises its children"
Austra's cultural norm of disconnectedness between neighbours and resultant apathy can be found worldwide in many nations; and "all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to say nothing"
Austria and the many other nations in the world who practice 'arm's length' methods of child raising--perpetuate an 'arm's length' sort of culture and society in which neighborhoods of strangers can co-exist for decades next door to one another--seeing nothing, noticing nothing, and knowing nothing--about one another. While it is true that there will always remain evil on an individual level--in any and ALL cultures; it is also true that in many of the more interactive and connected cultures of the world, such an evil as J Fritzl's would NEVER have gone unnoticed and undetected by so many for so long!