Democrats and their delegates: You cannot be serious

I have been trying to keep my mouth shut about the Democrats and their delegate counting rules. It's none of my business really.

But honestly, it's impossible to stay quiet.

This morning The Times reported on the compromise decision to grant Obama four delegates from Michigan and no more:

To Harold Ickes, the veteran Clinton operative who once bit a man's leg in a political argument, the compromise was anything but democratic.

He was “stunned” at the “gall and the chutzpah” of this body of 30 individuals in deciding “to substitute their judgement for the votes of 600,000 voters [in Michigan]. Hijacking four delegates is not a good way to start down the path of party unity.”

Andrew Sullivan links to this extraordinary rant by a Clinton supporter.

Really, I'm not involved, I live in a different country but.....are these people unhinged? Have they totally lost their sense of proportion?

The Democratic Party told Florida and Michigan what would happen if they brought forward their primaries. They chose to ignore that warning. I don't think that any of them should be seated at all.

How can the Democrats claim to be the party of tough peace negotiations if they can't stick with their  threatened sanctions?

But Ok. Perhaps that's not realistic.

But how on earth can Clinton's people demand that votes be counted from a primary in Michigan that Obama withdrew from as a result of party advice?

I literally don't understand. The attempt to invoke civil rights or even the Florida recount of 2000 is an insult to the intelligence.

As John McEnroe would say "You cannot be serious"

Comments

[Andy C]

I'm not sure who it was who took the stand on Saturday and said "I'm not a member of an organzied party, I'm a Democrat"....but never has a truer word been spoken.

Same argument as you state above goes for this ridiculous notion of Clinton's that the popular vote matters. It doesn't. The rules clearly state that delegates matter. The popular vote doesn't matter now and it doesn't matter in November.

[C Byrne]

It doesn't really matter what the rules are. If Mr. Obamah gains the nomination, then it is a shoe-in for Senator Mc Cain. The innate racism of blue collar workers and the Hispanic bloc will guarantee another term for the GOP.

[Daphne Kenward]

Even RACIST can't argue with MATHS, not to say they did not try. Some said Hillary was winning when she was behind, the MATHS said she was behind, they found an argument they had no proof of. HILLAR had more popular votes, with no evidence to substanciate it. OBAMA won 12 in a rowe, then CLINTON PULLED REV WRIGHT OUT OF THE WOOD WORKS. Then they played the RACE card, then they pulled SEXISM, out of the HAT. Then it was the Florida Mitchigan Votes. Then it was the people who can't vote in the general election. OBAMA knew what he would have to face to win, and he knows what he has to over come to win the General Election. HILLARY thought she was white and she must win, and the racist said Hillary must win she is white. My God is there any Justice in the world, can anyone do anything based on merit. HILLARY was out in the lead for nearly a year and as far as she was concerned no Black guy could beat her, thats how she saw it. She took OBAMA for granted, never took him seriously, and McCain is about to do the same, and come unstuck. This old boy he thinks being a prisoner of war is a passport to the WHITE HOUSE. OBAMA is going to show him that it is about the people of AMERICA, and the people of the world, its not about him & the Rpublican Party, its about the country, its not about his RICH MATES & his RICH wife, it's about a bigger audiance the people of the UNITED STATES.That is what it is about for the first time, the people will count, the rich fat cats has ran things to line their pocket. This time people want change the change that really matters.

[Effie Powers]

As per your reference to the withholding of thousands of votes in Florida: How dare you say that I dont deserve to have my vote counted. I also resent Obama's standing there and requesting that my vote be dropped to 1/2.

[Corrupted Mind]

Daniel, you're a smart guy - so I don't know why sometimes you write stuff like this. Basically, I was speaking to a guy from Africa and he couldn't contain his laughter. Firstly and most importantly this is not a partisan issue - if what happened at the rules committee happened in ANY other country in the world we (quite rightly) would be peering down our collective noses at that 'uncivilised' place. The breach is a procedural one - that said the people who turned out (all 2 million of them) - had no way of changing the decision of their respective states to go early. Their votes had to be counted in some way. In florida (which you would note is relatively uncontested) the right outcome occurred. The will of the voters was recognised however the sanction for the state was that their delegates would only have half a vote. In Michigan, the rules committee made up the outcome - and that is just plainly unjustifiable. The argument has been made that all the candidates were not on the ballot however, Obama took a principled stand - and when someone takes a principled stand, they must be prepared to accept the repercussions - i.e. that they will therefore not receive any votes. (My personal view is that Obama made a mistake in taking himself off the ballot and should have left state governance to the Rules Commitee - but then that's me!) The last thing that should occur is that the result is just made up!

[marbury]

Well generally I sympathise but let's try and see it from the Clinton perspective. Obama chose not to put his name on the ballot in Michigan. Just because one candidate withdraws shouldn't in itself make the election invalid. Second, the DNC took the decision on Saturday to allocate a large part of the 'Uncommitted' vote to Obama, and to distribute the delegates partly based on the evidence of exit polls. I'm not saying this is wrong or right but it does represent quite a lot of meddling with the people's votes. So although I think the Clinton people's anger has a lot to do with the fact that they know they somehow lost this race...I don't think they're being entirely unreasonable about Michigan either.

http://marbury.typepad.com

[JOHN CHUCKMAN]

This behavior is not the behavior of a party. It is the behavior of an individual, an exceptionally ambitious and selfish individual.

The Democratic Party at the national level has close to disappeared. The country, which has always been conservative, is becoming overwhelmingly so. With prominent members like Lieberman – supporting McCain - what on earth can it represent?

And the Democrats for the most part cannot be distinguished from the Republicans when it comes to imperial wars. They vote to start them, and they vote to sustain them, and most never raise their voices against a stupid war crime like Iraq.

The people of the United States are reacting to sheer government incompetence today. Bush isn't a conservative, he is an idiot.

Obama offers hope not because he radical in any way but because he is thoughtful and sympathetic and can put a good face on the American Empire. He will not be a big agent for genuine change because that is not possible for anyone in today's America.

There are legions of powerful and devious men in the country’s establishment who work to keep America on imperial course. Their tolerance for change is close to zero. They can make a president look weak and ineffectual.

You have much the same going on in Britain. Tony Blair's pathetic "New Labour" is not the Labour party at all, not even a shadow of it.

It was only a marketing vehicle for Blair to enjoy power. It represented no coherent principles, and I think it pretty clear that Brown, left with Tony's wreckage, is in deep trouble.

[Marcus]

The problem, unfortunately, is that she is serious. It's the old Clinton win-at-any-cost strategy. And, she's inspired and inflamed a very vital part of the party, older feminists, into making demands that just have no basis in reality at all. She was content to let the delegates from Florida and Michigan go when she thought she wouldn't need them, but now, when it's all she has left....

The real question for the party has become whether or not the split in the base can be repaired. Nothing Clinton has done so far has even hinted that she will do anything to help clear this mess up. Most likely, if her older female followers do refuse to participate, then the outcome is certainly a McCain victory. The infuriating thing is that these "True Believer" Clinton supporters seem perfectly willing to allow a Republican victory if they aren't allowed to get their own way. And that gives pause to anyone of sense looking at the situation. How much are we Democrats willing to sacrifice in the way of integrity in order to win? How much should we do in order to pursue voters who are so out of touch with what the party stands for that they'll boycott because they don't get their own way? How much should we do in pursuit of the racist voters who won't vote for a Black man under any circumstances? Reward Clinton with the nomination in order to assure ourselves of the poor white voters who won't vote for a Black man?

Despite a Republican president who gives new meaning to malfeasance and shows every sign of becoming the most hated of American office holders, the Democratic Party is deeply divided, and shows every sign of not being able to capitalize on the Republican gift of corruption, greed and law breaking on an unprecedented scale.

[Simon Foston]

I'm strangely certain that Hilary Clinton wouldn't care about the popular vote if Obama was ahead in the popular vote but she had more delegates.

[duncann]

Imagine it was the EU and, say, Britain and Denmark's governments had broken some bureaucratic rule - would you think it fair that every voter in those two countries be denied the right to participate in an EU-wide referendum on an important issue, and wouldn't you think that it would store up huge problems with those voters for the future? The fault lies not with the voters but with the Democratic Party - if this is the way they run their own party, heck knows how they intend to run the USA. And Obama withdrew from the Michigan ballot most likely to boost his chances in the 'real' early primaries - other states were pissed off with Florida and Michigan. The whole thing is mess.

[Greg]

The Clintons also disenfranchise caucus voters because they refuse to include them in their math and the media isn't strong on that point as they should be. At what point does the media stop catering to the Clintons?

[David Cunard]

"I'm not a member of an organzied party, I'm a Democrat" was first said by the American humorist Will Rogers, who died in 1935.

It was Mr Obama who first claimed that the 'popular vote' was important and since superdelegates can vote for whom they wish, they may take this into account, especially if Mrs Clinton wins South Dakota, which was supposed to be an easy win for Mr Obama. Despite the pressure from the media, it's not over yet!

[Michael Sheridan, Sacramento]

The truly amazing thing is that Obama had sufficient votes on the rules committee to get an even 64/64 delegate split in Michigan, but forwent that and accepted a LESS favorable 69/59 delegate split in the hopes it would promote unity on the decision. And STILL the Clinton camp lobs complaints that she was "robbed" of 4 delegates, in a state in which her name should not have been on the ballot and knowing that 4 delegates with half votes would change her situation not at all. That's beyond brazen--that's pure gall.

[marbury]

Further to my comment above - the larger point is, what we're seeing here is, arguably, something rather admirable and peculiarly American: a reverence for the vote. Millions of people voted in these states, and as one of the commenters says above, they weren't involved in this nonsense over process. They just wanted a say over their party's candidate. So the voters have to respected somehow.

http://marbury.typepad.com

[Dectora]

Daphne Kenward. When you repeatedly use capitals in a post, you have already lost the argument and are,in effect,shrieking, shouting and drumming your fists on the table and yelling 'Everyone must agree with me'. There are two candidates, some Democrats support Obama and others Clinton: get used to this.

[S. Camara]

What I cannot catch with is problem of rules breaking is, does Obama break the rules or does he order the breaking. In an election contest, even in non democratic societies, an election is the choice between two or more candidates, not only one candidate. It was agreed that no candidate should present his bid in these two states. Who ordered? The DNC. Who accepted? All candidates. Why revive the ballot in these states when the electoral process is at its very end? why deprive one candidate and favor another? If any distribution of votes it should be 50:50 to be fair. But the logic in some Americans’´ mind is: Either CLINTON wins the nomination or the Democratic party LOSSES the elections. A very confusing and innerving reality.

[Daphne Kenward]

To Marcus:
With respect I read your post, it was interesting. Logic has it when you are losing, you try your hardest to win. Hillary was too desperate and she was willing to Destroy the Democratic Party to win. Like you said she has split the party and I feel it was her intentions to do that, she was classified as DIVISIVE, which is right it came across loud and clear in the campaign. She ignored the Rules though she had signed up to those rules regarding Florida & Mitchigan, using that to create another division. She then went on as you stated to use WOMEN to protest on her behalf, if that is the new Presidiential style God help us. Then there is the other split by these women she was using to create another DIVISION. You mentioned boycotting the election I don't see it so much, you mentioned the racial devide, I think once the healing process takes place the party will come togeather, because it will no longer be a HILLARY & OBAMA, it will be Democrats or Republicans, then there is the policies, the real issues should begin to dictate the general election in November. I do't know if Hillary will do any thing to help the party I guess she will, and I am sure many people will be lining up to run with her next time, that is if she is allowed to run given her disgraceful behaviour, but we have to get over that and move on. Your comments was really interesting.

[Abernathy]

While it is true that the voters in Florida and Michigan had no say in the Democratic party moving up their primaries despite what they knew would be the consequences, the point is, there are consequences. I agree that the delegates should not be seated at all. While this may seem unfair to the voters, the party made the decision for them, with full knowledge of what might happen to their states delegates. Perhaps the Democratic voters in Florida and Michigan should direct their anger where it belongs--with their party leaders. Clearly they cared more about the media attention they would receive by having an early primary than they cared about citizens of those states having their voices heard and their votes counted.

[Andy C]

Marbury,

Obama withdrew his name from the ballot in Michigan because the rules clearly stated the election wouldn't count. No candidates, apart from Hillary campaigned in Florida because the rules stated the election wouldn't count.

Hillary stated in January that Michigan and Florida wouldn't count.

Whilst I agree that the allocation of votes doesn't accurately reflect the original ballot, it's only fair that if the decision has been taken to seat some or all the delegates, then Obama should receive a proportionate amount of the uncommitted vote, clearly some of those votes were for him.

The right thing would have been to not seat all the delegates from those states - as the rules going into this primary season clearly stipulated.

[Abbott Katz]

As a New Yorker living in London, I share the outrage over the Clinton lunge for delegates that she knew were void from the start, a judgment to which she had acceeded. Harold Ickes is way wrong - the chutzpah, unalloyed and repellant, emanates from the Clinton campaign.

[P. H. Salus]

Does anyone else recall the single page vow that *all* the potential nominees signed last August? The one about states holding primaries prior to Iowa, etc.? Hillary Rodham Clinton
(who never saw a fact she couldn't weasel around) clearly doesn't.

[Jan]

I admit to being a huge Clinton fan back when he was President, and so was happy to see Mrs. Clinton running. But, boy have I been turned off! I think their true colours came out during this campaign. They say everything happens for a reason, and I thank God that this race has dragged out the way it has cause it has showed Mrs. Clinton up big time. Driven, over-ambitious, manipulative, hypocritical, vindictive, selfish, stoop-to-any-level, win-at-all-cost... I'm sorry but this is all people are gonna remember the Clinton name for now. Well, that and Monica Lewinsky...lol

[Joe B]

Maybe it takes the space of the Atlantic Ocean to have some objectivity. It is so rare to hear folks here in the US saying that Michigan and Florida voters have to suffer for the poor decisions of their state parties. So true, though. They broke the rules.

[Adam]

Just to be clear, this is the Democratic Party's nominating process. It's not a general election. If the Democratic Party came up with some Byzantine rules that said the vote of a New York Democrat was worth 8 times as much as a vote from a Texas Democrat, unless it was a Tuesday, unless it was a Leap Year, than so be it. As an American voter, you can choose not to vote in the primary for that party and wait for the general election to see which pandering, sniveling, gutless wonder the party nominated as their candidate as then choose accordingly.

God Bless America and God Save the Queen!

[Chicagoan]

I have to agree with the author of this piece. The DNC rules regarding the Florida and Michigan primaries were very clear - the states were stripped of their delegates before any voting actually occurred. For those people in the forums who said "they took our votes away" you are technically incorrect. The Democratic party in your state did you a disservice, with full knowledge of its likely consequences. Florida and Michigan voters were clearly apprised beforehand of the fact that their votes would NOT count. Obama and John Edwards both withdrew from the Michigan primary, as ALL of the candidates promised to do. Hillary stayed on the ballot in both states, and in my opinion this was a cynical attempt to do an end-run around the rules to which all candidates agreed well in advance.

The Clinton forces have attempted to change the discussion, however, by insinuating that no one ever expected that either state would actually be stripped of their delegates. This is not true. If Obama really believed that Florida's delegates would be counted, do you think that he would have "chosen" not to campaign there?

Giving a half vote to the two states was a gift. If it weren't for the fact that the states were so important for democrats to win in November, I doubt that the DNC would have given any ground at all. As for the business with the four votes in Michigan that were given to Obama... well, that does seem a bit odd. Most likely it was an attempt to simulate what the real outcome of the voting would have been if Hillary's name wasn't the only one on the ballot. Honestly, I think it's a little pathetic that she was the only one on the ballot, yet she only managed to get around 50+% of the vote there. If you are running unopposed, wouldn't it make sense that you should get close to all of the vote? And "uncommitted" -aka the Obama and Edwards protest vote - got almost 40%. At the time of the primary, many Michiganders were up in arms over the fact that they didn't get to vote for Obama, and they led a protest movement to vote for "uncommitted" instead. Given that they succeeded in getting a significant portion of the electorate to vote uncommitted (which was sort of like a no-confidence vote for Hillary), the DNC had a duty to at least guess how the numbers might have split had the vote actually been a real election with multiple candidates.

Of course, the compromise solution brokered by the Rules Committee has appeased no one. But even if the full delegations for both states had been seated, Hillary still could not have won the nomination. So why is everybody so up in arms about a measly few delegates?

[Deedlebum]

Good riddance to BAD rubbish !!!

[Jim]

Effie, Obama's people did not argue that your vote should be reduced to half a vote. They argued that it should be *increased* to half a vote, because your vote didn't count at all before the committee sat down.

Consider that Obama's people actually had a majority on the committee. They could have let your vote remain completely uncounted.

It doesn't matter in any case: whether the votes were counted as half a vote or a full vote -- or, actually, even if counted as 1.2 votes each -- Obama still gets the nomination.

[sweetalkinguy]

The correct term is shoo-in. It is a horse-racing term, the American equivalent of a walkover. Here, under Jockey Club rules, the runner in a one-horse race has to walk over the course before being awarded the race (and the prize-money), hence a "walkover" is an easy win. It is similar over there - the runner only needs to be told "shoo" rather than be ridden with heels, hands and whip.

[kh]

Mr. Finkelstein is exactly right. It doesn't make sense to have rules which stand only if it makes no difference in the results. This is not an election for office - I don't think the idea of anyone being disenfranchised applies here.

However, this being politics, a compromise that makes no difference in the end seems an appropriate solution.

[Karen]

Thank goodness someone finally wrote about the lack of logic regarding Michigan and Florida, regardless of which candidate you're for.

We teach our children that it is cheating to change rules mid-game--and the rules were agreed upon by Clinton, as well as Obama, pre-primary. When Clinton is losing, she stomps around like a 2-year-old to get her way and leads voters to believe it's okay to do the same. Divisive. Narcissistic personality disorder.

The votes should not have been counted as they stood. If voters in those states wanted their votes counted, then they should have rallied for a revote while there was still time, rather than whingeing, or instead, work to change policies for future elections.

[Nausher Ahmad Sial]

We are proud on the Hillary Clinton's contribution to the democratic process,but it is our humbally request to not take slot as Voice President from your party anyway.They are going to pay in gen election.

[RD]

I'm 64 and this is the first election I've paid close attention to. What an idiotic system we have in the US. Caucuses where you stand under a sign to make your notions known, the Caucus elects delegates who meet separately at state conventions and are not bound to vote for the people's choice. This is followed by so-called super delegates who can vote for anyone they choose and eventually the electoral college.

In the immortal words of Igor Stravinsky, "Who needs it!"

There's nothing democratic about this system!

RD

[Donna]

Obama won the nomination tonight! As an American I would like to know what you think. My daughter will be in London tomorrow and I told her to ask everyone she meets. Finally something to feel good about. We've waited so long.

[Alex]

Can any of you who support Hillary's position SERIOUSLY believe she'd be fighting this hard to say every Florida and Michigan vote to count (despite rules she agreed on months ago) if _Obama_ had won the majority in those states' illegal primaries?

Really? If so, I have a bridge I can sell you. Cheap.

[Karen]

Finally, someone in the media is speaking up. No matter if you support Hillary or Obama, we teach children that it's cheating to change the rules mid-game. Yet, when Hillary is about to lose, she stomps around like a 2-year-old with a tantrum that Michigan and Florida should count, when she clearly agreed beforehand on the rules, as did the other hopefuls in the party. As a public figure whingeing, she's made it acceptable for voters and officials to do the same.

If Michigan and Florida voters were so concerned about their votes counting, then they should have protested to have a re-election long before it was too late to do so, rather than protest, now, or change these rules for future elections and let this one be. To think differently is beyond illogical and dysfunctional within today's social constructions.

[dave jones]

clinton is doing the dirty work for Bush and Mcain in order to preserve the status quo of the preceding 16 years. we have had years of bombs, unjust wars, corporate rape and pillage, globalism etc. everything but betterment of the majority of the people. why would they want an Obama victory. Clinton has been more anti Obama than anti Mcain. they bat for the same side!!! as far as they are concerned, long may the rape and pillage continue .
she will try to entrench herself as his running mate now to keep her fingers in the pie. what a disaster that would be. as far as recounts go, another sign of a desperate woman who will do ANYTHING to be president.
and keep her true paymasters in charge.

[David Etherington]

When do we in the UK get the opportunity to vote in the Presidential Election? Is postal voting permitted?

[angelita]

The debacle with Michichan and Florida could have been settled before May 31st, but the DNC and the RBC had a operation eradication of votes agenda going. Screw the system on which State go first. A vote is a vote no matter what day of the week or month one voted. One voice, one vote. Not one voice, half vote.

D=Democrats
N=Nominate
C=Cheater

Votes
R=Robbed
B=By
C=Committee

[Dee]

To Florida & Michigan voters - you should vote your state representatives out of office. Since they chose to move the date. Obama did not cause your problem, Hillary was behind and took on the issue that Florida and Michigan should be counted. The DNC did the right thing to take away 1/2 of the delegates. This should be a reminder to all states in the future to never move the set date.

Michigan is a different story, the governor is a democrat and she signed the bill into law. The DNC should have given them 1/4 of their delegation instead of 1/2. Florida on the other hand is run by the republicans a democrat could do little is this case. Just vote them out of office and then you can control your own destiny.

[Joan Finkle]

The most chilling comment said on T.V. last evening:

"If Obama has Clinton as his running mate, he would do well to employ a food-taster"

Contrary to her frequent protests that she has the Democratic Party at heart, denial of the reality that she has lost the nomination, proves otherwise.

[Patrick Monroe]

What will her supporters think of her if she accepts 2nd place on the "Dreamers" ticket? If she had the "courage" to scoff at Obama's "Dreams", where did that "Courage" go? Was she lying then or is she lying now? I don't have a problem with the fact that this is buisness at the end of the day but the problem is, that's not how it is sold. The use of the hearts of us is a dirty and low minded tool. . . and it is unfortunate that it works on us so d*mn well.

[Mike Kemba]

For an African man writing from Uganda - a troubled country ran by a tinpot despot who enjoys US backing - this has been a most entertaining farce. Obama was always right for your country, America but the bigotry of the majority will not let them see it. The world can at best gird itself to face another eight years with another mad man at the head of the most powerul nation on the globe. I thought Bush's idiocy had put some sense into your heads!

[Dan from California]

Wow ... all of these men afraid of one smart woman! Spin it how you like!Obama is clearly not qualified.

[H.Ghoraba]

Clinton's ridiculous claims for the votes of Michigan and Florida particularly after the committee ruled out in the beginning that they will not be counted and especially when both Obama and Edwards removing their names from ballots (Can you blame them?) resembles a Track runner who wants to claim the Olympic gold medal for a race he ran alone by himself and still wants the gold medal despite the race was canceled . Is there is anything more absurd? What's next is that she can claim to arrange for some primaries and Caucuses in Canada and Mexico to give her some imaginary delegates and votes??!!!. It's clear that she is suffering from a post traumatic shock. Being so self conceited that she won't even concede after the primaries ended officially and with over 200 delegates difference. But lunacy knows no boundaries to her. She believes the presidency is like a claim to her god given right to the throne of the United Kingdom of America. She tarnished her half-lunatic husband legacy and he helped her do that by his endless stupid comments. This race was over 2 months ago but even with Obama declared as victor she says she is winning the race. She needs medic and probably some stupid Dr. Phil advice to keep her from a much deserved Sanitarium.

[Melime]

Hillary keeps talking about how she "won" the Michigan primary, but she conveniently forgets to mention how ALL of the other nominees withdrew their name off the ballot.

It's real easy to "win" when you're the only name on the ballot, duhhh...

[Shay]

Most everyone on this comment roll seems to understand the concepts of rules and voting yet mainstream media fails to mention these in their hours and hours of panel discussions. Clinton should be marginalized by the media immediately and Obama should never pick her to be VP, the battle has been too acrimonious to heal her and her supporters wounds. The more we waste time on Clinton the more we distract from the bigger picture. E tu Hillary? Democrat Americans have done an amazing thing, lets hope that the rest of America can be guided by honourable prinple rather than empty talk of freeing nations from their oil and money..oops...I meant tyranny and terrorism. GOBAMA! Go America!

[Sofie]

I agree with this article. The party asked ALL candidates to withdraw their names from the Michigan ballot. Obama obeyed (he didn't voluntarily withdraw), but Clinton didn't. She should have been penalised, not allowed a net gain over Obama and those who wanted to vote for him. Trying to ensure you are the only name on a ballot is not a democratic way to get a mandate. Shame on Hilary and her team for this.

[Peter Harris]

In response to C Byrne.
Does The Times seriously moderate these comments? Spelling and grammar would be a bonus...

[Paul Webster-Hughes (China)]

Hillary,
Go quietly, go quickly, go down the closest rabbit hole and play with the Queen of Hearts or Dormouse.... but please..... just go NOW.
After 8 years of GDubya systematically destroying your country, plus the leathery wings of McSame flapping in the darkness with a certainty of 4 to (God forbid)8 more years for the USA in the abyss if you continue your childish prevarications.....remember to pick up your bag as you leave.
sincerely,
Brewsta ->
a Brit who works in China, lives in Thailand and remembers a more gentle, caring, honest America.

[MCD]

This is all the fault of the Democrat Party.

The DNC made a decision to disenfranchise their voters by saying they would not seat the delegates if FL and MI didn't follow the primary schedule (knowing that the voters had no control this).

The state Democrat's knew they would be sanctioned for moving up their primary, thus disenfranchising their voters, and chose to do it anyway.

They completely created this mess themselves and don't know when to stop. Harold Ickes' histrionics, Hillary seemingly unable to comprehend defeat; it all resembles a circus of clowns with no laughter.

The Democrats are so inept and stupid, it defies belief. This is how they start off their march to the Whitehouse? They're a joke.

And don't believe this party unity BS. The Democrat's control my state and are bitterly divided here, causing unbelievable problems. They can't contain their contempt for each other and are unable to get things done.

[rodney]

Clinton lost she tought she would win but too bad she lost let her not even be in any slot of Obama's government let her go home and raise another ugly kid like chelsea.And about Michigan if you seriously think any of that would make a difference then you need a brain transplant.As it was well known Hillary was just George Bush in a skirt plain and simple bye bye hillary for life,....thank goodness we are free at last..

[anonymous]

The voters in Michigan were simply disenfranchised. Their votes were not going to be counted at all, and Obama supporters couldn't even vote for him symbolically. He played by the DNC's rules by taking his name off the ballot. It paid him back in the end, because even after she was given the Michigan and Florida delegates, even if they were split, he won. Hillary really cannot be serious. I don't mean to take sides, but it would be cheating. She had no competition and those votes were not a legitimate representation of the opinions of those in Michigan.

[Bob E.]

The Presidency of the United States is a LEADERSHIP position. How can anybody who has witnessed this campaign not see who the true leader is? Obama is more than qualified for this position. He has displayed calm and resolve while weathering a storm of attacks from all sides.

As an American who grew up in the racially divided city of Boston during the forced busing era of the 70s, I am proud to vote for a qualified man who happens to be of African-American descent. I am hoping to send a message to the world that America can still be great. I am hoping to get my country back.

[cay]

1. Sen. Obama and Sen. Edwards both removed their names from the Michigan ballot not under part advice but of their own volition in an attempt to pander to Iowa & New Hampshire. Melime is incorrect because Gravel, Biden and Kucinich kept their names on the MI ballot.

2. The DNC ignored their own rules which clearly called for a 50% strip of delegates, not 100%.

3. Iowa, New Hampshire and S. Carolina also moved up their primary dates without penalty.

Sorry to see the Times going in for the same misinformed commentary that the US media indulges in.

[growing pains]

As a baby boomer in the good ol US of A my first vote was in 72 for Richard Milhouse Nixon, who , generally villified by the outwardly manipulative liberal press, brought about relations with China, lowered the voting age to 18, froze gas prices when he sensed goughing, etc. Around the same time was a REAL female politician by the name of Shirley Chilsom, unfortunately she was 30 years before her time. Hillary was a smug, underachieving fool, with no sense of history for females in politics. No Hillary, you are not the standard bearer. Had you not been running against a black man, a liberal media loving black man, you may have had a chance. Thanks goodness you lost, America deserves a better female candidate than you. And, in this day of age more than any other, if the media, of which there is less and less influence because of blatant liberal lies and half truths, could not influence the election of Nixon's and Bush's, then it is a good healthy indicator of our country's independent thinking. Oh, and Micheal Moore...you can kiss my ass.

[dave jones]

dan
how is hillary qualified? by being the wife of an ex president? my wife isnt qualified to do my job and we've been together for years. how exactly is she more qualified than obama?
she is a disgusting woman who has stooped to seriously low blows during this campaign and now she has the gall to expect to be part of team obama!!
the woman is deranged

bye bye mrs clinton. your mask has been removed and your face revealed. dont look in the mirror, sweetheart. you won't like what you see

[A Todd]

I wonder what would have happened if they decided to run the Michigan and Florida Primaries again...now. Would Obama actually outperform Hillary in either of them bearing in mind how much his stature has grown through the nomination battle. If Michigan and Florida had held back their primaries as they were instructed to do so, then maybe Obama would have performed better in them and he would have crossed the delegate line sooner than he has and we wouldn't have to deal with watching Hillary Clinton rip her party apart because she refuses to follow party rules and accept that she has been out-manuevered, out-orated, out-funded, out-PR'd, out-thought and just plain beaten by a better and yes, black opponent!

[Martin C]

I have never been more conscious of being a part of "Two peoples divided by a single language"

[Bocetti]

Hillary Clinton disgraced good hearted caucasian americans by using racist tactics by making comments that she can get the "white" vote, clearly implying that is the only people's vote who really mattered and calling for all "whites" to vote for her to prove a point but it backfired right in her wrinkled racist face!!! Just as the United States was destined to have 50 states, then Barak Obama is destined to be the best President America has ever seen. Obama is like the Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods or Lebron James of politics. He came on the scene and immediately demanded and earned the respect and trust of the establishment and the american people. OBAMA for President!!!!!!

[Therese]

As a Michigan voter myself- I know we were ready as a state to accept our consequences until Hillary lit afire under the cause for Making Every [Hillary] Vote Count. She really put a chokehold on the Rules Committee by threatening to take her supporters with her to start a riot (would you trust this person as a leader??) so the Rules Committee caved in. Then Ickes argues - It wasn't Hillary's Fault (irrelevant) so give her the votes she earned and who cares what happens to the rest. Now, there's a caring, let every vote count position to take. Of course, the Rules Committee had to be responsible to the people who didn't vote, because we were told it wasn't going to count. They did only what they oculd do, either way, they were in the hot seat by caving in in the first place.

[Sarah F]

This is crazy! I dont see what all the hype is about Obama. Does anyone not see the fact that he is still wearing huggies?? This guy is way too new to the game and can hardly make eye contact during speeches. He can barely hold debates against other US senators how in the world (literally) is he going to speak out against Kim Jong IL????? WTF!!!!

[Cat]

Hillary Clinton got shafted by the DNC. By giving votes to Obama that he clearly didn't win in Michigan and by only giving the delegates from Florida a 1/2 a vote each was a spit in the face of the voters who took the time to cast their ballot.

The DNC last Saturday sent a strong message to the voters that their vote doesn't count and that they can and will give your vote to whomever they choose. They did to Hillary what the Republicans did to the nation in 2000 and 2004 General election. It was fixed so that George Bush would become President.

Obama doesn't have the experience to be our next President. His campaign his filled with racists, anti-semites and elitists. How the Democrats can turn a blind eye to all of this and choose him as their candidate is beyond anyone's guess. If they clearly want to lose this election, the Democrats are off to a great start.

If Hillary gives up and ends her campaign now, she will lose a lot of supporters who believed she will fight to make sure every vote counts. She should fight all the way to the convention in Denver and challenge the DNC's decision on Florida and Michigan. If she still loses that fight then she should run as an Independent where there are no party rules.

[Cat]

Hillary Clinton got shafted by the DNC. By giving votes to Obama that he clearly didn't win in Michigan and by only giving the delegates from Florida a 1/2 a vote each was a spit in the face of the voters who took the time to cast their ballot.

The DNC last Saturday sent a strong message to the voters that their vote doesn't count and that they can and will give your vote to whomever they choose. They did to Hillary what the Republicans did to the nation in 2000 and 2004 General election. It was fixed so that George Bush would become President.

Obama doesn't have the experience to be our next President. His campaign his filled with racists, anti-semites and elitists. How the Democrats can turn a blind eye to all of this and choose him as their candidate is beyond anyone's guess. If they clearly want to lose this election, the Democrats are off to a great start.

If Hillary gives up and ends her campaign now, she will lose a lot of supporters who believed she will fight to make sure every vote counts. She should fight all the way to the convention in Denver and challenge the DNC's decision on Florida and Michigan. If she still loses that fight then she should run as an Independent where there are no party rules.

[Jerry]

For the record, the quote: "I'm not a member of an organzied party, I'm a Democrat" can be attributed to Will Rogers.

[Daphne Kenward]

To Joan Finkle:
I also saw and heard the comments that Obama would be wise to get a food tasred if he had Hillar as Vice President. The reporter is absolutely right. Infact I would not trust none of the two Clintons. I think there is more to these two than meets the eye. They stole 2 Million dollars from a guy who they called a friend fitted him up got this in prison to shut him up. But they now have evidence against Hillar & Bill, and they want their money back. And there is a case against them and Hillary is looking at a 10 year streach, she does not want to get off that ticket because it is the end of The Clintons. If Obama is STUPIED enough to engage with her he either don't know about it or he is willing to help her out of the situation and I know what I would do is dump the loser. Because that is exactly what they would have done to him.

[Eric Richard]

I agree with Mr. Finkelstein. They should not be seated. States moving their primaries up are causing this blight on the American public landscape: the two-year election campaign. In 1960 John F. Kennedy was criticised for announcing his candidacy too early, on 2 January. Of the election year. This time around, they were already holding debates 18 months before the election. States should be made to push their elections back, not up. Better still, bring back the old pre-1968 system, when the party conventions were held to actually decide the nominee, and not to simply put on a show.

[D.V.Kulkarni]

When Harold Macmillan sacked half
his cabinet, he was supposed to have laid down his friends for his
life. In wounding Mr Obama, has
Mrs Clinton laid down her party for
her life? I refer to your comment
that the long primaries campaign
may adversely affect Mr Obama's
prospects in November.

[Deborah]

A small note from the US:

1. the decision to move up the primaries was made by the Republican-dominated legislatures in both states. In Michigan, ALL Democrats voted against the move.

Yet the Democratic Ntl Committee penalized the Democratic voters for a decision that was not theirs. Republicans, by contrast, imposed a fair and clear penalty from the beginning (they halved the delegates), which at least ensured there would be a genuine election in both states.

2. Obama did not withdraw because of party advice. He withdrew because of the (accurate) calculation that he was weak in large, primary-driven states, and he focused on caucus-states, which elect delegates through a very undemocratic procedure.

True, Clinton never protested these rules, but the Obama supporters are claiming to be better and to be true democrats. Hypocrisy is rampant on both sides.

3. Obama-supporter Donna Brazile, superdelegate and bigwig Party person, had threatened to resign from the Democratic Party if the decision was made by superdelegates, back in February, when Obama was leading in the votes. Now that the outcome suits her, of course, we hardly hear her complaining.

Obama people can mock Clinton's bogus statement she won the vote all they like. The fact is we are going to the polls without knowing what a real election will produce, especially since the Florida and Michigan electorates were never given a chance to show where they really stand.

What a gamble!

[Calvin Hobbes]

We enjoy the First Amendment. I see you do, as well.

[Andrew]

You're right...it's none of your business. The votes in Florida and Michigan needed to be counted.

[Tom Frick]

Good article, I agree. Florida and Michigan should not be seated AT ALL. And Hillary should be sanctioned for signing a pledge that these primaries would not count or be validated in any way, and then going back on her pledge.

It's her campaign that has CHUTZPAH !!

[JerryD]

Dan,

You're right that you should stay out of this. This was a very close contest. Anyone in the same position as Senator Clinton would work to get more delegate votes. The solution to get delegates....especially in Michigan was extremely unfair to Clinton. The Hillary Clinton haters forget the years of peace, prosperity and world leadership of the Clinton years. They show a lack of gratitude and appreciation to the Clintons. If we suffer as a country from having a novice come into office...you're only getting what you asked for. It's a shame the 18 million Clinton voters may have to share these potential mishaps.

[Michael Powell]

No, its none of our business, except that it ripples outwards across the Atlantic, every time a pebble is thrown their part of the pond.

Ms Clinton is a grafter. If you wanted to employ anyone to do a job, thats one to choose.

That some primary states were disregarded arbitrarily for holding contests at the wrong time is odd. I thought they believed in counting votes, and not just the votes that happened to be counted at the right time. Rules, especially arbitrary rules, are there to be distgarded, that's the evidence of history.

Rodham-Clinton is the more plausible candidate, and were not it for the colour of his skin, Obama would be history. We do need some redress in the balance that has hithertoo been white-centric and male-centric, but we also need a credible president, something that has been remarkably absent for too long.

Perhaps eventually middleclass-centric and rich-centric politics might also be put to rest. Not to say lawyer-centric, but we've also had too much of that over the last decade.

Let Hilary have her votes, she's worked hard enough for them as we all know.

[Peter Dawe]

Winston Churchill once remarked that you can always rely on the Americans to do the right thing - once they have exhausted all the alternatives. When Hillary Clinton finally concedes, she will confirm that she is truly American.

Throughout American History from 1776, three charactaristics have been evident - differnt ones being more prominent at different times. These charactaristics are hubris, hypocrisy and paranoia. The Clintons have exhibited all three, sometimes simultaneously; especially hubris, after which, of course, comes nemesis.

[C. Sharp]

Daphne Kenward----> "The Democratic Party told Florida and Michigan what would happen if they brought forward their primaries. They chose to ignore that warning."

Daphne, you are off to a good start. Now on top of voicing your indignation at the columnist go put your voice to good use. Call your representative. Email them. Snail mail them.

Responding to the columnist in the manner that you have is like getting cut off in traffic and then going home and kicking your dog. Address your ire where it is deserved.

[Janet em ess]

I, too, have been flumoxed by the endless (snore central) discussion and debate about the MI and FLA democratic party delegates. This should have been a non-issue. Rule: move the primary dates up and you're out of the game. Period. End of story. I guess this was a rubber band rule - boyoyoying.

[molaski]

"I also resent Obama's standing there and requesting that my vote be dropped to 1/2."

They started with 0 delegates since they didn't hold a sanctioned contest, per RBC decision that Hillary agreed to. That's why no one campaigned here. The 1/2 vote -- proposed by the Florida Democratic Party -- was given as opposed to zero, the original penalty. The RBC had to assign some penalty and it is the same penalty used in the past. You can resent all you want, but the 1/2 penalty had nothing to do with Obama. Moreover, it did not affect the outcome. Finally, pretending as though it was a legitimate election for delegate selection purposes would have been ridiculous since everyone was told that it was not a sanctioned contest.

[Randy]

I can hear Karl Rove's phone ringing...

The Master of the 51/49 formulas.

If Sen. Obama doesn't select Sen. Clinton as his running mate... Rove is back in business.

"A fact we can believe in"

[Mike in SF]

I could not agree with the writer more. The issue of these delegates was a moot one. In agreements with all campaigns, the FL and MI were invalidated BEFOREHAND, making any sort of vote that could take place skewed. Those states chose their own fate, they were warned beforehand. The "losing camp" cannot scream disenfranchisement after the fact to suit their own agenda.

[Haralambos Petrokolos]

USA the four ring circus - wouldn't it be wonderful to wipe it out and start again?

[Haralambos Petrokolos]

You see then and hear them on the the Oprah show - those screeming Moonies in the audience - what is it with Americans and their messiah complex? Is it a simplicity of spirit? Is it their world-beating gullibity? Is it an unnatural dependence on hope? Anybody?

[Jenny J]

First, the DNC did not ask anyone to withdraw from either Florida or Michigan. The candidates were told the election likely wouldn't count. Obama is the ONLY candidate who withdrew from either state. The question remains - why did he withdraw from Michigan and not Florida?

The candidates agreed among themselves to no campaign in either of those states. Only one did - OBAMA and he lost BOTH. Which is weird because he was campaigning in Michigan AFTER he removed his name from the ballot. That shows fantastic leadership and judgment.

RACIST! I'm a racist because I will never support or vote for Obama. RACIST! That's the only card he has to play.

(By the way Barak, there are only 48 states in the U.S. 57 states refers to your friends and $$ supporters in the middle east - Iran, Afghanastan, Libya, Syria...)

This is a sad day for the (Used to be united) United States.

Now you Obama supporters can stop twisting facts and tell the truth for once. Oops. I forgot. You support Obama. Never mind.

[Ria]

Democrats Delegates and superdelegates are coward.They couldn't tolrate that lady should rule the country thats why they all endorses BARACK.I think backward countries like India and Bangladesh are much better than this world's # 1 country Atleast there is no discrimination of man and woman.Its a shame for very advance country like USA that still there is a discrimination.God bless Hillary.You are a HILL you never ging to feel sad about that All our blessings are with you.

[A. Dunbar]

If Hillary truly had the best interests of the country, or for that matter, the interests of the Democratic party at heart as she repeatedly claims, she would have ended this farce weeks ago.

Sadly, it has been ages since we've had anything remotely resembling diplomacy, grace, poise or dignity in the oval office and Hillary has shown the world that she indeed is not in possession of these most critical faculties.

[Don Meaker]

We must keep in mind that Obama put Reverend Wright in the picture by choosing and staying with that church for 20 years.

Obama put the terrorist Ayers in the picture by visiting him, serving on boards with him.

Someone tell me what Obama has done?

[Don Meaker]

Kind of odd how Obama got votes in Michigan when the voters either chose Clinton or Uncommitted.

[El]

I fear we're getting the leaders we deserve in the U.S...

1. Accountability, responsibility, and the rule of law have suffered greatly in my country. It would appear that few expect anyone to suffer the consequences of their actions anymore.

2. My concern for the mental health of my fellow citizens grows daily. Logic no longer appears to be a value. In fact, it would seem that actual fact-gathering and critical thinking are now considered "elitist"...

3. When presented with facts, many of my fellow citizens appear to prefer responses more fitting to toddlers... "So?" "Uh-uh." "You're mean!"

I'm extremely relieved that at least a couple of posters actually know that it was the REPUBLICAN-led Florida state legislature that moved up the primary there, knowing it would screw the Democratic voters. Very few media outlets have mentioned that fact.