Your David Davis reader

A round-up of comments on David Davis's resignation. We'll keep updating.

15.43: Bryan Appleyard: David Davis is Dudley Moore

15.31: Benedict Brogan's Blog: David Davis: Cameron cool under fire

14.34: Coffee House: Put your questions to David Davis

13.39: Nick Robinson's Newslog: A divisive Davis

13.31: Three Line Whip: David Davis: "bring it on, Kelvin"

13.15: Iain Dale's Diary: Kelvin MacKenzie Gaffe: "Hull is an Absolute Shocker"

13.09: Tim Montgomerie in Comment is Free: Davis won't divide us

12.30: Boulton & Co: Odds on favourite

12.05: Alix Mortimer in Liberal Democrat Voice: Down and dirty with the tabloid press

11.38: Jim Pickard in Westminster Blog: Going out in a blaze of glory

11.26: Coffee House: David Davis: the morning view

10.54: John Redwood: The two Davids

10.52: Jeremy Hunt: DD blindsides Westminster press corps

10.45: Guido Fawkes in Order Order: Freedom Fighter v Bottler Brown

10.41: Iain Dale's Diary: Thank God for Kelvin MacKenzie

10.32: Benedict Brogan: DD still has friends

10.29: Nick Robinson's Newslog: Laughing off a late life crisis

10.20: Alexander Baker in Labour Home: Labour should not indulge David Davis' ego

FRIDAY:

17.43: Fraser Nelson in Coffee House: The passion of David Davis

17.32: Politics Home: How split are the Tories over anti-terror legislation?

17.25: Three Line Whip: Labour to allow David Davis a free run

17.23: Benedict Brogan's Blog: DD: beware the Ken precedent

17.02: Stephen Tall in Liberal Democrat Voice: New Poll: Should the Lib Dems stand in Haltemprice & Howden?

16.55: Adam Boulton in Boulton & Co: David Davis's Downsides

16.42: Guido Fawkes in Order Order: Labour PPC "opposed to 42 days"

16.36: Dizzy Thinks: Is Brown about to follow Clegg?

16.30: Iain Dale's Diary: David Davis's walk into the unknown

16.18: Politics Home: Text of Davis statements to BBC and Sky

16.15: Lynne Featherstone: David Davis

15.57: Guido Fawkes in Order Order: Davis invited to stand as Libertarian Party candidate

15.39: Liberal Burblings: A prima donna act and a pointless by-election

15.29: Tory Diary: Dominic Grieve: Tories will repeal 42 days

15.19: Benedict Brogan's Blog: Grieve is permanent - and DD is out 

15.12: Jonathan Isaby in Three Line Whip: Dominic Grieve finally gets his chance

15.00: Fraser Nelson in Coffee House: Davis: the word in Westminster

14.54: Martin Bright in Bright's Blog: I Salute David Davis

14.50: Lord Norton in Lords of the Blog: Westminster rumour mill

14.43: James Cleverly: David Davis resigns on principle over 42 days detention

14.34: Stephen Tall in Liberal Democrat Voice: The David Davis resignation: what it means

14.30: Nick Robinson's Newslog:  Unpredictable politics

14.28: Andy McSmith in Open House: A rush of blood he'll live to regret

14.17: Tom Harris in Labour Home: David Davis: 'I have a cunning plan!'

14.15: Niall Paterson in Boulton & Co: Wow

14.09: Coffee House: Cameron responds to Davis

14.00: Three Line Whip: Labour celebrate as David Davis resigns

13.57: John Redwood: David Davis - what a stand!

13.49: James Forsyth in Coffee House: Will David Davis be denied a publicity triumph?

13.47: Centre Right Update: I cannot see an up-side for the Conservative Party in this

13.44: Benedict Brogan: A high-risk stunt

13.41: Sam Coates in Red Box: David Davis resigns: what does this mean?

13.39: Boulton & Co: Dominic Grieve is to replace Davis as Shadow Home Secretary.

13.24: Michael Savage in Open House: David Davis: a theory

13.18: Three Line Whip: David Davis's resignation is a rare move

13.15: Adam Boulton in Boulton & Co: BREAKING NEWS: David Davis To Resign

13.00: David T in Harry's Place: Why Did Dave Davis Resign?

12.50: Centre Right: David Davis is resigning

12.36: Nick Robinson's Newslog: Westminster rumours

Comments

[simon]

I don't see the point. He's been elected and he opposed the bill. All that another parliamentarian could do would also be to oppose the bill. Labour doesn't hold and can't expect to win the seat so it's harly another Crewe. Weird and high risk.

[Bob Grant]

Point one: why will no MP resign to give us a voice on immigration

Point two: All of the listed blogosphere pundits are already establishment commenters with TV shows columns or the like.

[TONY]

David Davis is a rare politician. Brown rabbits on about principle whilst trading with all and sundry as evidenced by multiple concessions and the deals he struck to (temporarily) save his job whilst attacking our civil liberties. I applaud Davis and Clegg, LibDem's leader, who will not put someone to contest Davis's seat. There is after all some hope for the reputation of our parliament and our Great British democracy.

[John]

What does it take for this government to listen? It is a dark day in our constitutional history when the writ of Habeus Corpus is so easily diluted by a Labour government on the slide. We the people have had to fight hard for our freedoms through out history against despotic and autocratic monarchy and the powerful. To all MPs who voted this through, hold your heads in shame.

[Finn]

Why are (mostly Labour) people saying this is 'just a stunt'? Well, yes, it is a stunt, and good for stunts! I'm sure Davis would like to be in government, then he could repeal the legislation, but he isn't, so he's doing what he can do to draw attention to how, he thinks, we're 'sleepwalking into a police state', to use the hackneyed phrase. Good for him; he has lost his job in the shadow cabinet (it doesn't look like Cameron is disposed to giving it back) and has to fund a by-election campaign in order to do what he believes is right. This is what we need - more conviction politicians. I don't agree with him most of the time, but you have to respect the guy. On a related point, what is a million people marching in London against the Iraq war if not a stunt? Stunts are useful things when you have influence but no power. The point of a stunt is to make a demonstration of something. The stunt in itself achieves nothing - what it does is to focus the attention of the target audience and get them to think a little harder about the issue. Maybe the resignation of a senior shadow cabinet member will get us to think a bit harder about the civil liberties we're giving up!

[james j mertins]

Bravo Mr Davis. For once a man in parliament. The British people have been sleepwaking into Orwell,s 1984 and someone has to waken them up. Mr Davis has done so. We are the laughing stock of the western world because of our policies. At any other time in our history we are more like the old Soviet Union than the British Democracy that people admire and repect. !camera for every 14people, resticted right to protest, more data and then some. Police powers that make some 3rd world countries seem liberal. We are no longer a democratic country. We went on the strets for the poll tax, it is about time we went on the streets and fought for our freedom

[Nick Winstone-Cooper]

This is just grandstanding and positioning against David Cameron.
It won't get through the Lords. If there is an argument against 42 days then there is a similar argument against 28 days.

The best thing would be for nobody to stand against him then it will be exposed as the futile gesture which it is.

[Mike Kemp]

Posturing, by an egocentric individual, who is seeking personal attention rather than putting the interests of his party first. If he really opposes the new Detention law then the best route to repeal it would be to work for a Tory victory at the next election and then seek to repeal it as Home Secretary with a Commons majority.

This is just 'gesture' politics and it utterly diminishes his credibility as a responsible member of an alternative government. I hope that Cameron excludes him from any senior role in the future.

[Highgrove]

Another cynical empty gesture by a narcissistic politico. "Resigning" as a member of Her Majesty's opposition, only to return in a ticker-tape victory parade after winning back his own seat, is all about self-promotion and nothing to do with principles. Send him over to Italy, a fellow EU partner, where you can be detained for up to one year without charge.

[Tom Smith]

Whilst I agree with DD on 42 days, is his "courage" not further evidence of a self-destructive streak? He threw away a good chance of becoming Tory leader by making a speech that he must have known was a dud. Now he throws away an even better chance of becoming Home Secretary in a Tory government.

[Andrew Towell]

Well, what this means is this is the 2nd person who is still willing to stand up for the people and put there neck on the line in the name of Freedom. God bless you David, you’re a true Man with spine to say what he thinks and give up a position of power and financial security in order to do so. If people are against you on this then they are in favor for the stripping of our civil liberties.
You are in the same category as when Robin Cook resigned from Labor because his party was sending the country to a war in Iraq, what a speech he made! Agreed with every word of it, that was a man speaking the truth!

The 1st person was Nick Clegg when he said he “will break the law and refuse to provide details of his identity if the government presses ahead with plans to make ID cards compulsory.” and “If the legislation is passed I will lead a grassroots campaign of civil disobedience to thwart the identity cards programme … and I expect thousands of people like me, will simply refuse ever to register.”

Well, you've got my support and vote Nick, I want my Prime minister to stand up for freedom and be willing to go to jail in the name of that freedom! We are Great Britain and are supposed to be the leaders of freedom and democracy yet we are the country that holds people without charge longer than ANY other and has more CCTV cameras than any other country in the world.

These two should team up and would win by a land slide at the next general election!

CCTV just documents crime, does not prevent it! A pair of sun glasses and a hood makes it totally useless for any kind of identification!

ID cards are a waste of money and will give a free pass to terrorists via "fake id cards", also they will encourage fraud as one form of ID mean’s no messing around, it’s accepted everywhere! The database holding all our personal details will be a treasure trove for hackers and that information will be worth a fortune on the black market throughout the world! No database or server is un-hackable, it would HAVE to be online in order to verify who we are via “chip and pin” function on card.

A DNA database that includes innocent people and children is a disgrace and should be triple checked by an independent public body and only be taken when a serious crime is committed.

There is not words to describe the injustice in being held for 6 weeks held in a cell without being changed or having any evidence against you, being told why you've been arrested and can be released at any time without so much as an apology! This is enough to send any sane man, insane!

President Bush signed a law suspending the right of habeas corpus to persons "determined by the United States" to be an "enemy combatant" in the "Global War on Terror". We also helped in this by letting Rendition flights land at British airports heading to and from the US, sometimes in order to be tortured abroad.

I’m just sick at the mindset of our current politicians, they practically committed treason by handing over power and sovernty to Brussels/EU via this so called “treaty”, but you only have to look at the constitution in order to see what the EU really want but settled for this Treaty! If they wanted a constitution, they will get it, in due time. One these are in place they are almost impossible to remove. I don’t want the EU to have a President and Foreign policy.

[Normal Mouth]

http://normalmouth.blogspot.com/2008/06/people-don-feel-unfree.html

[Sam B]

If Double-Dave is a libertarian, I'm a melon. You cannot take his stance on drugs and simultaneously claim to have any interest in personal freedom. This is a political ploy, greasy-pole climbing at its slimiest.

In a paralell universe where the government recently voted to repeal the 28-day bill, Davis has just resigned his seat in protest at Parliament's disregard for national security.

[Bobby King]

This is a stunt in a sense but why can’t you believe he accept in fighting for freedom and civil liberties? The stunt is that he’s just witnessed an extension of a law he feels may not have justification and is leaning to far towards encroaching on our liberties! David Cameron will be exactly the same as brown when he gets in office and be all for the stripping of our liberties and he does believer in bigger government and more power to the state.
You all think this is just a stunt but you do realize he has just given up a seat of power in a party that will probs win the next election (unfortunately) and also his financial security, he’s on the dole my friends, all because he doesn’t agree with locking people up without evidence, this is the sign of a real Politian, we don’t get many of them now!
You are resigning under a similar context ton Robin Cook resignation from Labor because his party/country was sending the country to a war in Iraq of lies about WMD’s and Sadam’s terrorist links, what a speech he made! Agreed with every word of it, that was a man speaking the truth!

Also a it’s in comparison to Nick Clegg statement when he said he “will break the law and refuse to provide details of his identity if the government presses ahead with plans to make ID cards compulsory.” and “If the legislation is passed I will lead a grassroots campaign of civil disobedience to thwart the identity cards programme … and I expect thousands of people like me, will simply refuse ever to register.”
Well, you've got my support and vote Nick, I want my Prime minister to stand up for freedom and be willing to go to jail in the name of that freedom! We are Great Britain and are supposed to be the leaders of freedom and democracy yet we are the country that holds people without charge for 6 weeks and has more CCTV cameras than any other country in the world! (for starters…)
President Bush signed a law suspending the right of habeas corpus to persons "determined by the United States" to be an "enemy combatant" in the "Global War on Terror".

How long before criticism of the government via dissent is considered a form of terrorism and/or inciting hatred and you’re sat in a cell wondering where it all went wrong and realizing it’s too late because government has also banned you from protesting and due to multiple terrorist attacks they’ve suspended elections and you can’t talk freely on the phone because they monitor and track everything you do and say.
You think that sounds wild, all it’ll take is multiple “terrorist” attacks against transport networks, government facilities and/or financial market and most of the powers are in place to turn our country into a police state under totalitarian governance.

We said that the terrorist’s wouldn’t change us and it’s “business as usual” but are they winning when we are stripping away the very basic’s of what our country was built on and supposed to stand for, stripped via new laws that restricts freedom is multiple ways… I ask myself that sometimes and I think you should too!

[Mark Burkes]

I have seen the comments 'I don't see the point' and 'its a cost to the tax payer'. The level of lethargy and lack of intellectual debate amongst so many of my fellow subjects / citizens is thoroughly depressing.

Its about the defence of liberty, justice, hard-won freedom and personal integrity. I appreciate we see little of these qualities in modern politics, but this is a rare occasion of a man who values principles and our freedom over his own political career.

For the first time in a decade I feel inspired to vote! Its interesting to note that none of these Labour 'rebels' have the guts to follow suit!

[brian ibstock uk]

the cost of David Davis's action
would run a school or hospital for two or more years.It's taxpayers money he's playing with

[Rene Fonyuy]

Terror Terror Terror and the draconian 42days detention!!!
Can the Government or the supporters of the 42days detention without charge bill be justified or is it another decorative provision geared to target the minority like those provided in the anti-discriminatory legislations which strictly speaking are unworkable and if anything are used as a toll to cover up discrimination and generally enacted to victimised and discriminate those in the minority whom the provision is allegedly intended to protect.
It is with Anger rather than sorrow that terror when mentioned or where there is a potential threat, it is enough to frighten and scare us all! It is enough to confine us to our homes or compel us to self-imprison ourselves for fear of being cut up in the act or of being the target. This fear of being a victim limited our freedom to roam the streets, malls or even holidays abroad. Using public transport will be a no no in those circumstance to most of us and others have live the experienced by dime of the 7/7 bombing as their usage of the public transport among other things had been coloured by the eventful tragedy. One can see from the above that the term detention or imprisonment is not narrow to being formally remanded in custody for 42days; it can be indefinite and indeterminate and could well go beyond the 42days period depending on personal factors as we shall see. However, it is worth mentioning here that the distinction between the indefinite detention or imprisonment and the 24days detention. The former is self impose through no choice of the victim whilst the later is imposed and dictated by the state. The idea is that anybody involved in terrorist act irrespective of your age, race, colour, political affiliations among other things will be held under the law but again we shall see that this is a seemingly uniform application of the law which is gear specifically at targeting a particular section of the public merely by reason of their religion and race.

As mentioned, everybody is a target of terrorist act unless of course you are part of the plot in which case you are oblivious to albeit deliberately to the consequences of your activities. Not a single person can rule him/herself out from the threat of terrorism, nobody can proclaimed immunity from terrorist act unless of course you are Osama Bin-Laden in hiding or Gordon Brown or his labour ministers or part of his establishment to which travelling is always under surveillance and special protection given to which the threat of terror is substantially minimised at the tax payers expense but worse still, they cannot claim immunity from the threat of terrorism as Bin Laden faced being Captured by legalised form of terrorism and brown and others still facing the potential threat from their self made enemies and they continue to add more to the list making life harder for the British public in the name of national security.

I am not going to go into the substantive law in this area but the general effect of these arbitrary provisions on those likely to be victimised of it abused to those who wouldn’t lose their sleep in abusing those powers is atrocious, disproportionate, irresponsible and the case for the existence of these powers are just unfounded. Let’s look at other supplementary or similar legislative provisions in the round are paying tribute to similar provisions that are already in existed and how they are affected on the ground and established the potential threat of these arbitrary powers. The Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 as amended provided for arbitrary powers to which the police as the eyes of the state can arrest, stop and search anybody at random for any thing or any suspicion based on any intelligence no matter how weak it might be. This all sound good from the crime control perspective given that the police will never complain and having excessive powers and will be adamant that more powers are needed to effectively control crime! They argued that we need not have any civil liberties at all for them to carry out there work effectively. This is no good to the due process proponent or where victim themselves fall prey to the abuse of these arbitrary powers although they would not complain when these powers are seemingly used to their advantage at the expense of others, they would cry vehemently when the reverse is true. As an individual, one would feel a sense of relief if told by the police that their suspect had been arrested and is in custody, their sense of satisfaction would be so irrespective of whether the suspect is actually guilty of the alleged crime or not as long as they could entertain the fact that the detainee could have been the culprit, on the same token, one would be equally aggrieved if he/she is arrested or detained to the satisfaction of another of a crime to which they had play no part, imagine the victim of the crime being satisfied that his/her man had been caught when in fact you are being detain for no reason at all.

The above damage would be mitigated if the police does not exercised this powers sparingly, if the powers are applied uniformly across the nation and to every potential suspect not by reason of their race , sex, colour, religion but because of their are reasonable suspicious, the evidence suggest that these powers and excessively abused and disproportionately applied to the detriment of other citizen who in light of the law are unfortunate to be black or Muslims or from Asian origin or by reason of their unwanted identify. As a young black guy, I have been stop and search on countless occasion within the space of four years, my fellow white counterpart do not even know that the powers to stop and search exist because they had never been search or stop for the 26years old of existent. Within need to be a genius to work this out, there is no doubt of the injustice built into the law or injustice endorse by the law when overtly manifested in the actions of police officers, no only one injustice can be seen in this argument but there are two so to speak. The first is being arrested for anything and everything based on subjective assessment of the alleged crime by the office who no doubt will have prejudicial views in his/her assessment which will no doubt prompt them to exaggerate the issue, secondly the arrest or the stop and search is aggravated by the very fact that the suspicion was and in fact in most cases is substantiated by the fact of one’s religion, race, colour or sex.

Various reports have raised these issues including the select committee on the excessive used of these arbitrary powers, prominent academia have expressed their discomfort and distaste for some of these arbitrary powers but one sad fact is nobody listen to them or those who sometimes consider these powers have nobody who represent the minority or when one person endorse their support through bribery or persuasion they are taken to represent the whole minority or the whole religion same as when one Muslim commit suicide or terrorist act the law will discriminate against all Muslims. We all know that when liberties are especially when only the minority are affected are considered by middle class white professional politicians, their judgment is no doubt coloured by their own interests albeit in an unconscionable manner which will inevitably be evidence in their recommendations and decisions. This does not imply that all institutions are racist or that they hold religious prejudice but they do have such element in their functioning. The problem is aggravated and extended to the prison population in the UK which consistently over the years had been made up of the minority; this population is very disproportionate of the overall population. It does follow without saying that the national SNA database or whatever it is call consist wholly or mainly of black fugitives or Muslim suspect who have had the honour to be acquainted with the police, in my view that database should be renamed the “black criminal database”. Discrimination is seen in all works of life in the UK, prior to start university I applied for student funding to which I was refused on the bases that I had previously been a Cameroon when in all I am committed to the UK, swore my allegiance to the queen, pay taxes among other things but on reflection one could say to hell with the allegiance because this is suppose to be a two way stream. Again I recently complained about racial discrimination, victimization and harassment conduct experienced whilst working the South Gloucestershire Council to which I was an employee, the investigating officers were selective of the issues they personal wished investigate which favours one of their own claiming at some point that hearing the evidence or interviewing witnesses would be unfair. In other words they acknowledge the unacceptable and discriminatory conducts but felt that it would be unfair to find her guilty of my allegations. This obviously meant that the injustice experienced and endure by myself outweighed the unfairness which they alleged would occur if a full investigation is instigated. This reason for pointing out these issue is the pint out the discrimination both at the individual level and at the institutional level which more often than not the institutional would hardly question any discriminatory act of their employee instead sanctions those act be deliberately falling to address and remedy problems that are identified or they built in a cover-up or paint a wash-wash or robber stamp commission to come across as doing something when in all they are aggravating the matter.

Bearing the above in mind, the effect and the impact of the 42days detention on those from the ethnic minority especially Muslims in this context will be severely disproportionate, put it simple, if someone from the minority could be stop and search 7times in the space of 4yrs, my chances of being detained under the terror law are substantially high to a white British or European who had never been stop or search in their entire life or had not be stopped and search in the last four years. Does that main my British citizenship is not worthy enough compare to others? The actions of the British government are akin to those of the apartheid South Africa which they are gradually trying to implant into the mains of the British citizens. This is so because certain group of people because of their race, religion will or are more likely to be locked up for 6weeks without charge or trial merely because they are inconvenient to the British society. Custody officers are normally less incline to release someone even if they are satisfied that the arresting officer was motivated by racial hatred, court on the other hand will tailor language to endorse such actions from officers instead of maintaining judicial integrity they have become part of the established which seeks to curtail individual liberties. What is true from this is that most if not all of us from the ethnic minority are being sectionalised, marginalised and alienated which is even worse than the apartheid policy in South Africa as most black men and women, Asia among other knew their place but we don’t know our own place here. You would do well to avoid it more if you knew what views were held about you and the black and Asians did well in South Africa to keep away as they knew their stand and their worth. Writing this might be enough to trigger charges over the terrorist act but that’s a risk am willing to take. I dread to think of the reaction from Downing Street if Robert Mugabe was the one enacting such a Bill in Zimbabwe, there would no doubt be an out-cry that human liberties are being infringed by a dictatorial regime but when those measure are tabled by Downing Street, they would gather favourable argument from the world, support from individual Muslim for instance whose view is only relevant to suppress the majority. Does that means that mean that human liberties and freedom in Zimbabwe are worth more than they do here in the UK? Do they not rate on the same skill? One start to wonder if Mugabe is right all along and it is increasingly hard to draw the line between Mugabe and the Brown Government or the old apartheid South African Government with the only difference being that Brown is silencing people quite using the law as a cover up. For all is matters, he might as well just get the court out of the way and use powers and suppression to jail or detain people rather than adding an insult by pretending that the court will safeguard such powers.
In conclusion, I can safely say that not only are the minority are or will be the victim of these legislation, its should be noted that not only the Blacks and the Asian pay for the price of apartheid in South Africa, some white who empathised with the regime were downgraded to the level of a black folk. Many people who happen to be inconvenient or find themselves in the wrong side of the law or supporting the interest of the minority will no down be the subject of these legislation and the only way to avoid such if the have the white or other disassociating themselves of any contact with a Muslim or a potential terror suspect as being a Muslim now is a prerequisite to gain the eligibility of detention under terror laws. Suppose you have a son who hangs about with his Muslim chaps and being a typical lad suppose your husband intermingled with Muslim friends whose views might be term by the government as radical and had been in the list of suspect, I am sure you will unequivocally agree with me that having those loved one detained for 42days with charge for associating with potential terrorist would be a grave breach of our civil liberties and an infringement of our human rights. We have a say in this issues as the electorate and a strong message should be sent to those scroungers at number 10 and those MPs who had supported the Bill and gambling with our freedoms and liberties should pay the ultimate price by being voted out of their offices, I should hope that out of the 315 who voted for this Bill, none of them should be in parliament after the next general election, lets face it, what are these MP doing for us? Nothing and I have experience it when I wrote to my own MP asking for intervention and help but all he did was agree with the decision I was contesting without ever putting up a case for me.

The 28days the suspect could be held without charge was seen as long enough compare to continental Europe and American where the threat of terrorism is seemingly the same, the length of detention in Australia is substantially lower than in the UK. The United Kingdom on the other hand had decided to enlist itself among the terror organisations by additionally imprisoning us despite the fact that we are already imprison by fear of terror and of being caught in those terror act. Not the UK are among those terror group and we are just as frighten to be caught up in their activities and if the British citizen were in fact sane, I would ask that they join me and ask that the Brown policy if not change should be added to the list of proscribed organisation.

I hope British men and women would join me and the likes of Liberty and their Director Shami, Tory MP David Davis, the Tories and the Lib Deb who have collectively and consistently had maintained their distaste for this Bill. Would welcome liberty as a true representative of the people s they truly reflects the views of the people against the arbitrary powers being dictated from Westminster by Westminster Dictators in the name of democracy, a new form of democracy is coming to light, DICTATORIAL DEMOCRACY!

[David from Cambridge]

The Ulster Unionists have sold out to the Catholics. Thay's what this is now about!

[ian payne]

Go for it David !!!!

[Cllr Ken Tiwari (ndependent)]

Is it not true Mr David Davis, that
you are a damn hypocrite !!!!!!

ou can't have your cake and eat it ?