By not winning Sarah Palin lost

The conventional wisdom on last night's debate is that by not losing, Sarah Palin won.

I have the opposite view. By not winning Sarah Palin lost.

For a period, it was possible to view the McCain versus Obama election as a toss-up, but we have gone beyond that point. It is no longer a toss-up election.

And events that take place during the campaign should not be reported as if it was a toss-up.

Obama is decisively ahead.

His lead is clear, it is reflected in state races and it is consistent.

McCain's only hope is to shock the race somehow. He succeeded in doing it at the convention. He tried and failed during the bailout crisis.

But there aren't very many opportunities to repeat the trick and last night was one of those. It was a long shot, but still a shot.

So Sarah Palin needed to win last night. Of course Republicans feared disaster, but avoiding disaster wasn't enough. Avoiding disaster means the race goes on smoothly and serenely.

And if it does that, Obama wins.

So by not losing Biden won.

There was a point during the primaries, too, when the election was being reported as close when Obama was in fact unstoppable. We aren't quite at that point. But we are nearly there. And so is he.

Comments

[Roschelle]

great post. the bar was set so low for Palin that basically her showing up and not sounding like a complete idiot was all the republicans hoped for.

She did much better than I expected but clearly was out matched by Biden.

I think the mccain/palin crock express has come to a screeching halt.

[Lisa]

Palin waffled about nothing, failed to answer questions directly to her, changing the subject because she didn't know enough, and then tried to charm her way with 'hey y'all I'm just a simple govenor y'know?' attitude. I'd have to agree. Palin most certainly did not win.

[Rafa]

Could not agree more with your point!!
It can be said with more words but not better, the republican ticket needs a big shake up, or they are doomed. The repeated Bush mistakes are catching the republican bandwagon and beginning to derail it.
Let's hope the race stays at it is now, and so new and better policies come from US in a near future.

[Rafa]

Could not agree more with your point!!
It can be said with more words but not better, the republican ticket needs a big shake up, or they are doomed. The repeated Bush mistakes are catching the republican bandwagon and beginning to derail it.
Let's hope the race stays at it is now, and so new and better policies come from US in a near future.

[Jack Bauer]

Palin ducked the question a number of times by entering a monologue that appeared scripted. It had no relevance to the question asked by the moderator. She also kept trying to introduce the "folksy" American lingo. I have to say that Biden showed considerable restraint and did not attack her personally. As stated, it appeared that the debate had been dumbed down for Palin.

I have to say Biden appeared ready for office whereas Palin still has some way to go.

[eric]

Watching her well rehearsed performance.
She talks off the subject.
Has no Idea of detail.
Who toned down the questions??
And why.?
Playing on her sex and her looks.
Truly, a pig in lipstick

[Richard Young]

McCain also looks... tired. I mean, that's not surprising for a 72 year old former POW. But it counteracts the value of his years of experience and forces people to consider President Palin. Besides, the US must be near bankruptcy: even without the bailout, national debt is pretty horrific, and tax revenues are going to suffer badly in the coming recession. Anyone who fears big government can relax - President Obama won't have any money to spend. And he'll do a much, much better job of restoring America's standing internationally. Even a right-wing paper like the Times has to applaud that, right?

[Ed Engels]

It's obvious, John McCain & Palin will win, despite the media bias.

[Steven M.]

Palin's searing insight into the current, massive financial crisis was that it was caused by "greed and corruption". No sh*t, Sherlock.

Just like George W. Bush, Palin is every bit the complicit Washington crook who feigns surprise when things go wrong, despite having sat back and tolerated financial mismanagement for the past 8 years of their rotten Republican regime.

[simon russell]

How much more interesting, and revealing, would the 'debate' have been with either Paxman or David Dimbleby to ensure that they answered the questions they had been asked, not the one they wanted to answer...Palin rambled on but said nothing of substance, Biden actually answered what was asked and came across as assured. Palin as VP? Good grief, and we thought W getting elected was bad...

[PJ]

Can't agree with you. The non-partisan pundits are right to say that she did reasonably well. She needed to restore confidence in her nomination, which she did. Apart from that there is not much she could do.

Besides, in 1988 the Democrat VP slaughtered his opponent in the debate - and still lost.

As for what she said/how she said it, what people here seem to forget is that she isn't talking to well-heeled and educated people - who would probably never vote for her anyway. She was talking to "Joe Six-Pack" (which should have been obvious). That's where she and McCain are mostly likely to pick up extra votes.

[Tom May]

You fail to note the most important thing: a lot of people respond to Palin because she is folksy and down-home. The fact that she didn't answer questions is almost irrelevant; the fact that she didn't stumble, stutter, and look as vacant as she has gives people permission to think she's great and come a long way and can do the job.

[Dave B]

A Luntz focus group says Palin won the debate, and Mr Luntz thinks the polls will follow.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video_log/2008/10/focus_group_says_palin_won.html

[mike]

Laughable. Im an objective neutral observer in England and Sarah Palin clearly won. 30 years in the senate and JB couldnt even beat the newbie in a debate hahaha Obama/Biden will destroy America

[Catherine Callaghan]

Thank you Daniel. You are right on the money with your analysis. I wish your colleague Gerard Baker was capable of telling it (and seeing it) like it is. Sadly, his reporting on the US presidential election campaign over the past few months has rung false at every turn.

[Richard]

Great post, nailed it on the head. With every passing day Palin becomes less and less appealing to they mystical undecided voter

[Andy]

I agree with the articles point- I read somewhere that swing voters gave a sizable victory to Biden.

But isn't this even more signficant?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/McCain_pulling_out_of_Michigan.html?showall

[David]

McCain owed it to America and the World to face the fact he is an old man and a cancer surviour at that. His choice of VP does not really reflect an ackowledgment of this fact. If the average VP has been a heartbeat away from the presidency, Palin will be half a heartbeat away. So what will she say to Medvedev when she has meets him over some incidents in South Ossetia? That the soccer moms are "like darned worried" about the resumption of "the doggone Cold War"?

I am not an Obamaniac and I'm certainly no fan of Biden. But America has had an amiable fool for a president for the last 8 years with catastrophic consequences.Please don't let them bring in another one through the back door!! Like Bush would have been a great guy to have a beer with - if he had not quit drinking, I am sure Palin is a great mom to talk to at the sidelines of a school soccer match and great company on a moose hunt. But we are talking about the Presidency of the United States here.

[John]

Palin said nothing as was expected. She was obviously heavily coached on how to avoid answering any questions and to hide behind the "straight talkin', working class hockey mom" image so carefully cultivated for her. It amazes me that anybody could claim that she won a debate when she said nothing of any substance. Then again, nothing about US "politics" should be a surprise after the Bush gang and how they stole an entire election.

[John O'Farrell]

Facts, Daniel, facts. Biden fluffed his way through with lies and inaccuracies.

Joe Biden's 14 Lies

1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.

2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.

3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping” the Outer Continental Shelf.”

4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.

5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.

6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting for alternative energy when he says he voted against it 23 times.

7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people's health insurance coverage -- they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false

8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska -- she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it's not a windfall profits tax.

9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO's International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.

10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation -- he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.

11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.

12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.

13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”

14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won't pay any more in taxes then they did under Reagan. (Regan's top tax bracket was 29%).

Source. http://www.johnmccain.com/McCainReport/Read.aspx?guid=343ba934-6417-4b65-ac9e-92348acb5e97

[MB]

Doggone it, that Palin gal's got moxy, I tells ya! Gee whillikers, whadda performance - she's a rootin' tootin' one-woman debatin' machine! That ol' varmint Biden sure had it a-comin' to 'im - yee-haw!
etc

To quote Kathleen Parker, my cringe-reflex is already exhausted...

[Adam]

I would rather have an experienced President and inexperienced Vice President than an inexperienced President and experienced Vice President. Who runs the show anyway. Palin did a fine job and proved to me that she is capable of growing into her role. Also I would like everyone to remember that every country that does not have the US's best interests at hart (Iran, Russia, France, etc) ALL want Obama to win...What does that tell you?

[Jody]

You must have been watching a different debate. Palin far outmatched the tired, old Biden. Remember, we Americans have been hearing him gas on and waffle for many years and there's nothing new there.

Palin won by a longshot.

[kerry]

There were times when Palin's inability to actually answer the questions made me want to scream in frustration. The folksy style was nauseating, and that wink?? Oh dear.Cringe factor 10 out of 10.

[ALAN]

Curious that so many people can pontificate on who 'won' this debate with apparently anyone defining what the Vice President does.
In terms of the present financial crisis someone in that role who was simply close enough to 'Joe Six Pack' to realise that these phoney mortgages were being oversold and then maverick enough to really make a fuss about it could have saved us all an awful lot of trouble.
No need for 30 years epxerience in the Senate!

[bill rees]

Neither party are the way to go fm what i can see,(Plus c'est change, plus c'est le memechose) but Obama seems the lesser of two evils - and not just becos of Sarah Palin although she comes across as a cross between Ned Flanders and Huckleberry Hound...all homespun and yeee haw - its very disturbing.

[Ken from suburban DC]

I disagree with your point. Given all the criticisms and negative soundbites on Palin, it was virtually impossible for her to "win". But she did well enough to neutralize the VP race. By her performance last night she also energized the McCain core constituency and perhaps significant numbers of fence dwellers. The race has shifted back to McCain Obama.

[Janet Roberts]

It has become a liability to be smart and well informed in American politics. If you demostrate intelligence and command of the issues, you are an elitist.
We live in the land of the "emperor's new clothes" and very few of the media are willing to acknowledge the absurdity of the candidacy of Sarah Palen.

[Howard]

I thought, and hoped, that with George W. Bush we had reached the bottom of inculture and incompetence and that we'll never ever "produce" something similar, let alone worst, on a presidential election.
Then Sarah Palin came.
I'm ashamed for my country.

[J Gary Fox]

Let's see after the election who is right.

Palin won the Public, Biden won based on College debating point rules.

The Public votes, British Columnists don't and there are only a few votes from debate judges.

[X Pat - London]

The US made the mistake eight years ago of electing a man who gave simplistic, down-home, joe six-pack type of answers. Rather than it being indicative of trying to reach a particular demographic, it was just the one before us was a simpleton not fit for purpose. Palin is very much the same. The bar was set so low last night you could have slid a fiver under it.

[Chris Kirk]

I know nobody wants to linger on their own mortality, but surely McCain must realize that he is more likely than most to die whilst in office. If he wins then there is a reasonable chance that this woman could become president (which scares the crap out of me). Surely he thought about this before choosing her as a running mate. Or maybe he was so desperate to win the votes of women and conservative Republicans that he didn't care.

[David]

Wow! No partisans here. I haven’t voted in a US election for some time. However, Palin’s selection has prompted me to register. Obama is a cipher who can’t speak coherently without a teleprompter. Even a heart beat away, I’d trust Palin far more than Obama or Biden.

[Diana]

Obviously some people have been "drinking the kool-ade". Sarah Palin did very well and as usual Joe Biden mis-spoke.
God help us if Obama wins and then "with no pre-conditions sits down to talk with Iran, North Korea, Cuba and Venezuala" as he actually said he would.
And God help the middle class with his proposed tax hikes.
McCain/Palin speak for the middle class. Obama speaks for socialists.

[Erik]

I see a post here by a Republican who claims Biden basically lied about everything. The source? McCain's homepage!

Instead look at what the neutral, objective, organization FactCheck.org said about both candidates lies:

* Palin mistakenly claimed that troop levels in Iraq had returned to “pre-surge” levels. Levels are gradually coming down but current plans would have levels higher than pre-surge numbers through early next year, at least.

* Biden incorrectly said “John McCain voted the exact same way” as Obama on a controversial troop funding bill. The two were actually on opposite sides.

* Palin repeated a false claim that Obama once voted in favor of higher taxes on “families” making as little as $42,000 a year. He did not. The budget bill in question called for an increase only on singles making that amount, but a family of four would not have been affected unless they made at least $90,000 a year.

* Biden wrongly claimed that McCain “voted the exact same way” as Obama on the budget bill that contained an increase on singles making as little as $42,000 a year. McCain voted against it. Biden was referring to an amendment that didn't address taxes at that income level.

* Palin claimed McCain’s health care plan would be “budget neutral,” costing the government nothing. Independent budget experts estimate McCain's plan would cost tens of billions each year, though details are too fuzzy to allow for exact estimates.

* Biden wrongly claimed that McCain had said "he wouldn't even sit down" with the president of Spain. Actually, McCain didn't reject a meeting, but simply refused to commit himself one way or the other during an interview.

* Palin wrongly claimed that “millions of small businesses” would see tax increases under Obama’s tax proposals. At most, several hundred thousand business owners would see increases.

[RDH]

As a good american conservative we in the states could care less what outsiders think or say......or in other words...."Mind your own damn business" and if that offends you...."Kiss our red, white and blue ".

[Bob Jones (USAF - Retired)]

I am a registered Independent and vote for who I think is the best candidate regardless of their party affiliation. Having said that, I have a few acquaintances who have their heads so far up Obama's butt that they are looking out his eyes. They have no capacity for independent thought. On the other hand, this is how I see the two tickets:
1.) Republicans - a walking corpse and a trophy wife
2.) Democrats - a jug-eared, paper-stapling Socialist and an alcoholic congressional good old boy.
Either way, we're screwed.

[HondaV65]

I don't know what you guys were watching ... but Sarah Palin mopped the floor with Joe Biden's hair plugs. I mean seriously ... this article is so slanted it's unbelievable. Ho Hum ... I guess we'll have to wait for a McCain bounce in the polls over the next three days to prove you've missed the mark on this analysis.

[Sharon F.]

I live in Michigan, where the unemployment rate is 9%. Mike @11:50 America is pretty much in the toilet now! Not much left for Obama/Biden to destroy. The Repug's made sure of that. It can only get better here because it MUST.
Oh yeah if you like being winked at, or the sound of Palin calling Iraq, "EYE"-raq, or the sound of her mispronouncing nuclear every single time, couple that with her inability to answer a question in a coherent manner, then she won the debate. For me it was like my head exploded several times, not a pretty sight kind of like the McCain/Palin ticket.

[Darnel]

Cry babies. She won no question and will boost McCain. Weirdo pyscho babble post in the first place.

[Margaret Dernier]

Unfortunately, the Cardboard Candidate, Obama the Shallow One, will win the presidency. The good thing about this it will show those who think he is some kind of savior that they were totally brain-washed. The U.S. is going to go into a deep recession or depression, and there is going to be substantial bloodshed in the Middle East when the Chosen One waves the white flag and withdraws the troops. As Thomas Jefferson, one of the Founding Fathers, said, a Revolution is needed every now and then to keep government in check. During Obama's reign, I predict we will see a massive revolution when Americans see they have been had by the current incompetent democrats.

[derk]

I see your thesis that by not winning, Palin really lost. I see your thesis that Obama is decisively winning. I see your thesis that McCain has to make shock news in order to keep up with Obama. Then your artical ends.Do you think we are all stupid? Do you just assume you are always right? ...Where is your support on any of the statements you made?

[Jim in Houston]

Once again, a Brit who has no vote is telling America the campaign is over. The liberal infatuation with overseas is hilarious. On this side of the Atlantic, where we actually get to cast a vote, the issue is far from settled. We know small, important details you lot seem to want to pretend aren't relevant. Like Obama's connections to ACORN, and ACORN's connections to Fannie/Freddie. Like his obvious Marxist bent. Like how many democrats select him in polls, but will either not vote at all or vote for McCain because of post-HRC bitterness or latent bigotry. Time will tell, but since you haven't done so well with predictions at home, maybe you need a better topic for gossip.

[Ken in MN]

I for one, DO NOT want another 4 years of the Forrest Gump Administration. Mrs. Palin is worse than unfit (if that is even possible) and Sen. McCain, dare I say it, is too close to finally cashing in his chips for America to take the chance that by electing him, they get 1 in 4 odds that Mrs. Palin will eventually become president.

[tony zizzi]

Stastically- The debate would not convince a percentage of right wing conservative Republicans to vote for Obama even if Palin had lost the debate and vise versa with Liberal Democrats. What the debate did was convince the few that are still undecided that the Obama/Biden ticket is more worthy of a vote.

[Pamela]

m an objective neutral observer in England and Sarah Palin clearly won. 30 years in the senate and JB couldnt even beat the newbie in a debate hahaha Obama/Biden will destroy America

Posted by: mike | 3 Oct 2008 11:50:15

Calling yourself an objective neutral observer does not make it so. Just like repeating "we're the mavericks" "energy independence" and "hungry markets" ad nauseum do not make them valid points.

[Tom]

Maybe it doesn't carry across the Atlantic, but to those of us in the American heartland Gov. Palin is a magnetic personality. She clearly held her own on the issues with the disingenuous Joe Biden (Obama was very dishonest in his debate with McCain - this is getting to be a problem for the Dem ticket), while 'talking directly to the American people' more effectively than any politician since Reagan. The fact is, the American people relate to Sarah Palin, absolutely adore her, and TRUST her - which is more important than anything these days. Biden? A DC lifer, do-nothing, pompous, greasy windbag. It was a slaughter.

[Experiment 626]

Daniel, I think you missed it.
Sarah Palin captured the hearts and minds of the Reaganites. A lot of politicians don't understand why he was so popular. Palin not only understands, but was able to communicate directly to the common people who voted for him.

I thought Biden won the debate by staying on message and presented his sound bites directly to the camera. Palin was not able to directly contradict Biden's misrepresentations instead leaving it to commentators to fact check. Joe was able to pin anything bad that happened on McCain.

But my wife really connected with Sarah's style. She had the key sound bite, "As an outsider, I am not used to how they speak in Washington. 'I was for the bill before they voted against it ...'"

Biden was able to shore up his base and won the debate by avoiding gaffes eventhough he clearly couldn't remember the general's name. But he worked the camera, made the questions his own, challeged Sarah anytime she looked good, hit McCain hard, and presented the Obama/Biden message.
But Sarah won voters by he calm, down home style. She is just a nicer person.

[OGBadpenny]

Joe Biden's 14 Lies; Assertions are not proof of lying…

Biden may even be in error on his memory of McCain faults, but putting the onus of proving lies is the responsibility of the accuser; so asserting a defense without exposing disproving facts of evidence, is itself a more serious lie…that’s a retaliation foul, which proves malice of forethought…

Intent to harm is more weighty than a mistake…once again McCain’s strategy backfires. So the question is: well then, just how did McCain vote?…show me the voting record on the issue, Senator……….

[Ambertolina]

What you Brits don't seem to understand is that among the dim-witted, tax-hating, USA-centric middle and southern Americans, Palin won the debate, and by a large margin. That's what's scary.

[Matty]

Yes, some American people like the folksy, homily-ridden speech of Mrs. Palin because it sounds just like them. That's part of the problem. The stakes are far too high for an undereducated, incurious, rural pseudo-populist with some rather dubious achievements. We don't need homilies - we need leadership, and both Obama and Biden exemplify that leadership. Palin is still out of her league.

[lonnie]

And you'd no doubt have voted for good ole George Bush if'n you had voted las' time, David. No???

[Todd]

I don't what you were smoking, but no one expected Biden to win; it was Palin's to win or lose. You libs simply have no concept or understanding of intellectual matters. If you did, you have understood Reagan, too. Remember the words of your beloved Winston Churchill (paraphrase): "To be young and conservative is to have no heart; to be old and liberal is to have no brain!"

[Suzy]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Sarah won. Biden was informative - but with many outright lies. Sarah, on the other hand, threw Biden's and Obama's words back in their faces time after time, and it was awesome!!!!!

[Heidi]

What was wrong with Joe Biden's eyes last night? They were pulled so tight he couldn't even squeak out a tear, as hard as he tried to a pull a Hillary weep last night. His forehead was perfectly shiny and smooth - nothing moved. Plus, his head was sweating but his forehead wasn't. Joetox was trying to look younger next to a gorgeous and vibrant Sarah. Instead, he looked weird - worse than John Kerry's hilarious face lift.

[Larry]

Lefties are an emotional bunch. They need to have a scapegoat or voodoo doll to stab all their anger & woes into. They also have to create a common enemy they can fight without the fear of reprisal. Customizing the "enemy" allows one to construct one with a "fool" factor in order to feel superior, sophisticated, and supply enough material for future mainstream media & pop-culture perceptions.

People talk about their disgust with typical Washington politicians but suddenly become real comfortable with them when confronted with an authentic outsider.

[Howard]

The final comment of Ellen Goodman of the Boston Globe resumes it all to perfection:
"Tina Fey still looks more qualified".

[Robert]

You have completely missed it. A significant number of Americans believe Washington does not represent them and has not for a long time. The revolutionaries wanted a government of the people, not the aristocracy that has developed. Obiden represent the old elitist mentality that thinks they know better than the people and looks down on them as simpletons. Obama - Biden and their ilk are the fools that need to be run out of town.

[Sam D.]

She kicked his butt. Obama supporters are socialists and need the government to finance thier lives because they don't have the guts or the will to do it on thier own. Obamaites should move to Europe and enjoy high unemployment and let those governments finance them like paid for 'holiday'. Whimps.

[Greg Mansur]

The fact that the rest of the world is rooting for Obama is all the reason, (and one of thousands) I need to vote McCain. A stronger America is not what the world wants and Obama is best to head it off. I look forward to the American liberal lunatics and their fellow Euro-sissies hanging their heads in dis-belief the morning after the election.

I really wonder when we will see people doing physical harm to one another over their political views. The verbal, and psychological abuse is so out of control. When will we learn that other people’s lust for power is distorting our own reality and preventing us from working together for the common good.

[James]

There is a tremendous bias in the media, which trickles down even towards their manipulation of polls. I can not remember an American presidential election where the media polling ever showed the Republican candidate leading until extremely close before election day. Now, with instant polling, their ability to try to control the paradigms of the contest is even more apparent.

On the surface, Joe Biden appeared to be more nuanced than Sarah Palin, but we soon learned that half of his 'facts' were phony. On the other hand, Sarah Palin is a natural politician in the mode of Reagan and Clinton. People want to like her because she seems normal.
She clearly undid the damage that the mainstream media liberal reporters did to her.

Obmama is a racialist politican and a socialist. His appeal to white guilt hits home with liberals. His appeal to huge government and wealth distribution appeals to liberals. They run the news business.

Remember, he was barely able to win the Democratic nomination from the crooked partner of a convicted liar. Short of massive election fraud, which is possible, I don't like his odds of winning.

[Matt]

Wow, what is it about this woman that causes left-leaners to become so...itchy?

I am an always-willing-to-be-persuaded Conservative who was impressed with Joe Biden's experience on the topics presented.

Further, I thought Sarah Palin should have been more substantive on the topics, although I do think most fair Americans give her a little bit of a "free pass" due to the fact that she's had - what - a month to bone up on issues outside her bailiwick.

Second, she clearly steered the questioning repeatedly back to Energy Policy. In other words, her strong point. I thought this was a little disingenuous at first, but in the final analysis it was very much blunted by the fact that the debate did then legitimately re-enter that territory, giving what would have been an awkward grab, run and possibly tumble into a grab, run - start to tumble - and be mostly saved. That was just extremely good luck on her part, in my opinion.

My honest, fair opinion of her is that she is a smart woman, is able to absorb information and create solutions based on her worldview (which at least half of America shares) and would be a competent, fresh and exciting president, were McCain to exit this mortal coil.

Proclaiming a clear winner or loser last night is not what I think a moderate did not see. Both held their own, both were competent debaters. Biden had the edge of facts and figures, Palin had the edge on connection with people and - in my view - her greatest moment was the "white flag of defeat" comment (during the first Presidential debate, while I though McCain came across as old and a little tired at times, I do think that his "bracelet story" carried much more gravity than Obamas, and was a truly touching moment from one point of view, i.e. do not pull out, win this for those who died).

In any event, I ramble...I just think this debate was mostly a draw excepting fairly fine points.

- Matt

[Rolley]

Interesting reading what you folks down under think about this race. You and the rest of the world are going to be reeling in shock when McCain wins. The polls are not even close this time. We saw that repeatedly in the Primary races. part of that is fed by the fact the media cannot objectively report on this race. Too many "reporters" get tingles up their spine when they see Obama. This myth of Obama's overwhelming popularity is just that, a myth. It is a shame the media has managed to foist off on the American public a sham like Obama who's only claim to fame is he was a community organizer (whatever that is). That is the pathetic state of American politics today. Obama may be the darling of the socialist world but Americans just don't connect with him.

[chandru arni]

I from India watched the debate. If US has to decide a President and VP based on one and half hours - 4 times over debates and not on their total performances in their respective fields it is a shame. Do CEOs get to power on debates ? Past and present performances and leadership in Politics or in Public Affairs are better yard-sticks.

[Mark]

Wow! What debate were you watching. You have obviously been drinking the Democrat kool-aid.

[Deborah]

I'd like to know how Sarah Palin "won". Simply showing up and not tripping on stage or drooling doesn't count. She had two or three days of what had to be intense coaching just to be able to reiterate GOP policy semi-coherently. Not to mention she didn't answer the questions. Last week she couldn't name what papers she reads and this week she is an expert on policy? Sorry, not buying it. I'll get back to ya on that! Her "gosh golly gee whilikers" approach galls me. The whole hockey mom thing is BS. Hockey moms get up at 4:30 to take their sons to games-and I'm pretty sure she doesn't do that unless there is a photographer there. Talk about dumbing down. It's insulting.

[Balls Flotard]

Like nearly all mainstream press, the author of this story is delusional. Palin wasn't going to let a clearly biased moderator prevent her from directly addressing the American public, she showed a firm grasp of the issues, all the while reminding Americans that she is one of US, as Joe Biden scowled and lectured, relying on innacurate statements and conveniently forgetting that he would have preferred to have been John McCain's running mate than to see Barack Obama elected just a few short months ago. Obama peaked too soon. Get ready liberals, to get steamrolled by the straight talk express. Our enemies and critics will be sorely disappointed next month, when McCain & Palin win by a landslide. It's not even going to be close.

[Laura]

Sarah lost? Really? What a shock that a European publication would come to that conclusion.
You can't stand that she actually makes a connection to millions of us in the great unwashed middle class here. I'm sure she is much despised in the UK for her stance on guns and abortion.
Newsflash- the majority of citizens here are not carbon copies of Hollywood or our sainted watchdog media.
This race isn't over yet.

[boye]

If Americans vote for Mcain because Palin reaches out to the 'joe six packs and hockey mums' then that will be unfortunate, for last night's debate shows clearly that she is just not ready for the job,she hardly answered the questions the moderator asked her but went on winking and saying what 'ordinary americans' want to hear, I only hope those ordinary americans wont be fooled once again like they were in 2000, but if they are, then they probably deserve these last 8 years of george bushs disatrous regime

[Viewing In]

It is unbelievable for some folks who believe that Palin is clearly the winner. She did enough to keep her from looking so bad. However, not enough to get McCain looking like the better guy. She did nothing for him. VPs are to help their partner and describe why you should vote for him....that was not done on Thursday night. She danced around important questions/topics but never addressed. Palin is talent in her own way but cleary does nothing for me as well as McCain. I was a Hillary supporter but now I am gearing towards Obama and Biden. Questions were answered with Biden responses but really unclear with Palin. At times I had to go back to see what was ask of her because she lost me in her talks...sorry no confidence there.

[Stella]

Palin is just a folksy school ma'am who should not be sitting across the table from world leaders. Is your bar really so low that you would even consider voting for her? She doesn't know her stuff - clearly demonstrated by her evasion of direct questions, and her regurgitation of a rehearsed speech (not written by her!).

[Mornin Joe]

You liberal pundits are all the same. Look as closely at any Dem's (Dodd, Shumer, Reid, Pelosi) after speaking and one would wonder how they dress themselves much less serve the public.

PALIN kicked 'ole Joe's donkey behind exposing more and more of his lack of knowledge and general perspective on serving the US citizens who pay him.

Obama is as empty as Biden is wrong when they speak. Since when has change been an objective or goal?

[Dan]

Finkelstein shows how little he knows about American politics. No Vice-Presidential candidate has ever won an election through a debate. In fact, the fact that this was even close did more for the McCain ticket than for Obama. On the flip side, the same was said about Obama last week. I think last night's debate was good for McCain and Palin, but it's not hers to win. McCain, ultimately, will have to win this election himself.

[Chacmool]

At least she hasn't made a history of plagiarism and lying, (see, Biden and Law School) or stealing other peoples life stories, (see Biden and Neal Kinnock). But I guess character doesn't matter to those who are blindly supporting this guy. Oh, and you might want to remind your "brainiac" candidate FDR did not go on TV to speak to the American public about the depression, or that the "articulate" Barack's last name isn't America.
Here's to say it ain't Joe as V.P.

[Mornin Joe]

The moderator I am sure is a liberal who filters the comments to show some equality in sides of the opinionated topic. Typical....

[Joanna]

As an American who is sick and tired of Washington elists who "know" more than us in the heartland, I am happy to vote for John McCain so in a few years we have a chance to have a Sarah Palin as our leader. A governor with an 85% approval rating is unheard of.

[Kazuki]

Americans are too stupid to vote for Obama. They will throw their country away for the last time.

[jack ovaltrades]

interesting article and I tend to agree, but remember that hillary almost overtook him in the dem primaries. what most over on your side of the pond do not recognize is the sheer dislike of bush. obama is not being vetted properly and will win by default. for all the 'issues' obama supposedly has control over, you didn't see biden do much except attack bush. my prediction is obama will be lyndon johnson version 2- trying to end a war he didn't start, bloated well intentioned but fiscally irresponsible social engineering, and dangerous learning-on-the-job foreign policy. if bush and the republicans hadn't squandered their chance, and we had a media that discussed issues vs polls and clothes, we would have a third party winner this time.

[Elena]

Funny, in presidential debates the media was saying that Barack obama went there as underdog, didn't score points but hold his own, therefore he won. Now Palin did the same, and she is a loser. where is the logic? The democrats' hypocricity is amazing!

[Kelly]

Biden lied repeatedly, answered questions like a well trained lawyer mouth piece. Palin knocked him out.

[Nicholas]

I'm Canadian - and we too are having an election BTW, however I chose to watch the VP debate instead of our own Leaders debate. Why?
Palin and Biden were much better entertainment. It looked as though Biden likes American Political Biographies while sitting in his leather chair in his private library and Palin makes a mean apple pie, served the American way - with a slice of American cheddar. I'd say she still has a shot - if it were a bake off, but since it's about politics...

[Foxxy Lady]

In my book, Sarah didn't lose, she won! She set Biden up to look like a fool. Just look at all the lying he did. What is scary is how easy it was for him to lie so convincingly through the entire debate.

[Patrick]

Drill baby, drill!!

Oh wait, drilling offshore will contribute less than 1% of total world production? And it won't come online for 30 years? And the difference it makes in the price at the pump will be less than the daily fluctuations? So therefore it won't even register to the average american filling up their tank? But by drilling offshore the oil companies will get even more money, and a lot in the form of government handouts?

Sounds like a great Republican energy policy.

If the Republicans win this election, this country is doomed. Mark my words.

Palin makes me sick when she says "Americans are desperate to tap into those domestic sources" ... what do you think we've been doing for the past 100 years, lady!? We done dried up all the oil over here, that's why we get 2/3rds from the middle east! But then she'll just invoke the republican myth that it was those darned environmentalists that blocked more drilling.... more lies. Fact is this country's oil supplies peaked in the 1970s and we are never going to return to those days. Do you honestly think we would choose to get our oil from the middle east if it were possible for us to get our own supply from at home? Do you honestly think that environmentalists have that much sway over our energy policy? If that was so, than how come we aren't doing anything about global warming? The logical inconsistencies are enough to make one's head spin.

McCain might as well come out and say "Americans, I have invented a time machine that will transport all of us back to the good 'ol days of the 1950s." Because that is the only way we are ever going to produce a majority of our own oil domestically again.

[John]

I love to read your highly intellectual political commentators state their opinions on certain candidates in a political system they cannot even begin to understand. Try venturing out of New York City on your travels to the U.S. and go to the heartland of this great country. Obama and Biden are elitist, uptight and completely out of touch with the average American. Obama and Biden do, however, fit squarely in the mold of those who envision European socialism as the penultimate government system. Those of us who support McCain and Palin value our freedoms, our individual state identities, and our ability to self-govern. We do not welcome a police state that watches everything we do, taxes us to the point of exhaustion, and turns a blind eye to those who openly threaten our way of life. Go about your day looking down on those of us who support McCain and Palin. We support them for the exact same reason that you disdain them; we do not want to live in a socialist political system like yours. And on that note, enjoy your weekend and someday soon I’ll be sure to stop in and have a pint of Guinness with you – because we all can agree that Guinness is non-partisan.

[Steve, Plzen, Czech Republic]

Palin also played the gender card by stating her motherhood status as a working mom trying to make ends meet, but was shot down by Biden being a single father, widower and over coming tragedy ... A very emotional minute for the long time career Washington Senator. He has class, smarts and will get the job done, my absentee vote is already in the mail for Obama.

[Jane Swanleigh]

Sarah lost? No. Biden lost. He exposed himself as the tired, old man he is who just wants this all to be over so he can go back to his resort home and drink a few beers.

It was clear to me, a normal middle class person, that Biden has no energy and no intention to be pro-active in anything.

Sarah is full of energy. Sarah has morals. Sarah is personable and savvy. Biden is just old and washed up.

[Sarah Martin]

Lost? Not so much. Palin proved to the world that she is capable of talking off teleprompter, unlike her opponent's principal.

The media hatred for this woman is stunning. Obama has never received the scrutiny and the grilling that Palin has had to undergo... and he's running for *President*.

[Adrian]

It's the first time I think this but I fear it's true: Daniel Finkelstein is too inside the media bubble for his commentary to be useful. This view of Palin's performance is true only from a media-centric viewpoint, which is absolutely not the audience it was directed at.

[Padraig]

Those who wrote that Palin won the debate shouldn't worry themselves - medical research has shown that you can safely take something for it, but please see your doctor if the symptoms persist.
And any Obama supporters who think that those who believe that Palin won are political flacks for McCain should be ashamed of themselves.
Everyone should remember that a large percentage of voters can only handle image and couldn't recognise substance if it bit them in the butt.
Modern day politics is purely image-driven, where pollies fear saying anything which cannot be easily retracted or explained away as being misunderstood/misinterpreted or taken out of context.
You can't expect anything else from a bunch of dumb bunnies who have never held down a real job.

[Sam]

The election is not Biden vs. Palin. It is Team Obama vs. Team McCain. If Palin became President in 2-3 years, she would have McCain's cabinet, staff, and council in place. Also, Speaker Nancy's Pelosi's House, in "loyal" opposition, would fight tooth and nail over everything. Palin would be much less influential than in Alaska.

Conversely, you have Obama picking the staff, cabinet, and council, and the hydra of Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Senator Reid, running a one-party government.

[PdB]

The US electorate seems to see Obama and Biden as patronising in the way they communicate; but it's Sarah Palin who is most patronising of all. Appointing her V-P entirely on the basis of her gender patronises female voters, who surely consider other qualities than that alone; and using 'small-town folksiness' to avoid serious questions, as parodied on SNL, patronises small-town voters who want to hear about the real issues.

Btw: @RDH, the 'good american conservative' - if you don't care, why are you reading The Times? If you have a good counter-argument, why don't you make it? It sure beats putting your fingers in your ears and telling us you're not listening.

The recent history of your country suggests that maybe you should care a little bit more what 'outsiders' think or say. Given the parlous state of Euro-American economies, it seems that we're all going to have to do it rather more in future.

[Maggiee]

The expectations were so low for Gov. Palin that it might appear that she "won" because she never had one of those "moose in the headlights" moments like she had so frequently with Katie Couric. It might also appear that she won or held her own against Joe Biden because Biden didn't pound her to dust. The fact is, had Sen. Biden trounced her as he could have, he would have been seen as a bully and mean and that would have made the debate a clear win for McCain/Palin in the polls. In the end, the debate won't have much of an impact on the polls or the election. What it is likely to do is take the heat off of Palin...which is good for McCain but only in as much as it stops the ongoing implosion of his campaign. If this was a victory for Palin, it was Pyrrhic at best and at worst it was an "everybody is a winner if they just try their darndest" kind of victory.

[Cyrus]

Biden did not win a thing. He said Obama wasn't qualified to be president months ago, So did Bill and Hillary. It's McCain and Palin all the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Michael]

Go Governor Palin....the post-debate rally in St. Louis rocked! When the mainstream media types dislike something then I know I'm right to like it.

[Jayne G.]

I am just devastated by the pundits who did not take Palin to task after the debate, and think that even this article is too kind, however I appreciate its sentiment.

I fail to see how any person truly interested in any important political policies could watch Sarah Palin's "answers" to the questions posed and think that she won, let alone "mopped the floor with" Senator Biden.

If the people who embrace Sarah Palin's plain-speak and everyman jargon truly believe that she is just like them, they are sorely mistaken. It is a facade to ingratiate herself to Americans who are downtrodden and tired of what they perceive as the "good old boys" in Washington. She is manipulating them with placating phrases because she lacks any substance or knowledge of the underlying issues.

As a woman, as an American and as an educated voter I am insulted.

[Sam-I-Am]

I love how everyone talks about Palin's lack of experience should she become President, but seem to forget that she is running for VP, and can't give any instances where Barry O has more experience than Palin and he's running for President! Name anything he's accompolished. (And don't give me the first black candidate for Presidency line.) Give me something real and tangible. Anyone? Anyone?

[Lawrence Kaplan]

Something you might like to know about polls in America. When polls are taken the companies apply an algorithm to the results which assume a certain percentage of participants are Democratic/Republican/Independent in order to "correct" actual reports by the participants who may be answering re their party affiliation misleadingly and to adjust for what the pollsters claim is a certain fickle factor, if you will.

You can search for detailed mathematical re-renderings of polling results and patterns and with stricter controls McCain has approx 4 point lead popularly - I don't know how that translates into electoral votes.

This is not as strange, or silly, as it might sound. For example, after Palin's first speech at the convention, most polling companies reported a boost of 4 to 6 points for McCain within one or two days. This finding was reinforced by pundits all over the world and it seemed true.

But it is hardly likely that people warmed to Palin that quickly. The pollsters results claimed that the boost cam almost solely from what the pollsters called undecided and it amounted to over half of them.

You may not believe this, but it is extremely unlikely for either of two reasons. If true undecideds resisted making a choice up to that point, it is unlike that Palin's speech moved over half of them. Likewise, if the undecideds were mostly disaffected conservatives (disaffected with McCain) it is equally unlikely that they would change their minds with one speech from a VP candidate.

This is not to say that Palin is influential, or unpopular. It is to say that the polls that showed here rise in popularly the next day are way off base.

So too with the popularity polls.

If you wish, I can go into this more, just remember post convention bounces are reported to have happened because the clients was to report post convention bounces.

The truth is this - we have no stricly reliable polling services.

[Kiara]

Anybody who is well educated in English could tell that Sarah was just going over the lines she rehearsed hard with her Republican coaches, faithfully. There was nothing more to her performance. She was a saleswoman for McCain who just seized every opportunity to sell McCain and his non-existent policies. At the end, it didn't sell for many.

[heather]

Typical as with all media, they have it out for Palin... Even with that being said, I think she held her own and did an outstanding job! Her governor rating is superb and she can relate to us "folks" unlike the elitists from DC. I'm fully confident that Palin is going to keep McCain in check - they have my VOTE!!