Should Israel talk to Hamas?

Rabbi Michael Lerner writes a piece in The Times today in which he argues that trying to destroy Hamas militarily will not bring peace to the Middle East.

Correct. Of course, correct.

He also thinks that the best way of having peace is for, er, both sides to stop fighting each other.

And I am pretty sure he is correct about that too.

So here are the interesting questions.

If Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, Iran and the surrounding Arab states decided that they weren't going to fight Israel any more, would accept its right to exist, and would agree to a Palestinian state formed out of the West Bank and Gaza, would Israel carry on fighting them? 

I think the answer to that is no.

But if Israel simply said it would release all the Palestinian prisoners, withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, open all borders and lay down its arms, would Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah and Iran leave Israel in peace?

I am pretty sure the answer to that is no, too.

And if Israel at least showed willing - made the offer of a Palestinian state, told the Palestinians they could have back the West Bank and Gaza, withdrew unilaterally from one of those areas as a firm gesture - wouldn't they then be able to win back liberal opinion?

After all, if the Palestinians and Hezbollah and Iran and so forth, still weren't satisified with that, and still went on fighting, then liberal opinion would turn back to Israel, surely?

Well no, again. And we know this because Israel did all these things, the Palestinians turned them down, and liberal opinion deserted Israel entirely.

The problem with Michael Lerner's article is that he thinks that since not talking to Hamas and not dealing with them doesn't work, that talking to them must work. This, however, doesn't follow. 

Comments

[r wilder]

Can we also ask:- will Hamas talk to Israel? Because we all understand that if Hamas recognised Israel, just as Fatah now recognises Israel, the opportunity for self rule to peace talks, to peace will be a reality.

[mouse]

Well, Dan, it's going to be a long process, after all we should not hae been in this place already, the diplomats failed us in the time they had available, and that's a grevious mistake. Your logic is fine, but to solve the problem, you've got to be non-logical. After all the Pallys are very hurt after being shoved off their land beaten up or killed and left in the desrt for 60 years. well, wouldn't you be. So it's like dealing with achild in a temper, so you've got to be non-logical and patient. How about giving them a state they can be proud of with fully functioning hositals roads, and schools and universities and industries they can turn their hands to. How about promising them water in the future and moving the settlers back inside the '68 boundaries?
How about feeding them and tending their wounded? How about respecting their religion and bringing up their orphans in that religion?
How about saying sorry and making up?
And how about being patient and putting up with all their nonsense until they calm down and see their future with a little bit of hope in it.

Otherwise the people who come after Hamas will be even more extreme. There has been a pattern. In the '60's the PLO burnt a few planes, assasinated a few people, hijacked a cruises liner and it just grew from there.

it's called turning the other cheek, and the hardest thing in the world to do, ( and what we partialy did in N Ireland), but it's the only way.

[marke]

So . lets carry on bombing Gaza back to the stone age ... lets over turn the Hamas elected goverment ... lets play into Irans hands!! ... and carry on with business as usual .... (don't forget our road to peace was negotiating with the IRA, but that is on our back yard .. not far far away)

[George]

Israel has lost the trust of fair minded people as a result of it`s disingenuous actions. It has also made implacable enemies of all of its neighbours. Not too clever really.

[Jez W]

Someone once told me an Arab saying (i only have their word it is used) and it goes;

"Slap me in the face shame on you. Hit me again and shame on me."

It's translation is self explanatory i think.

The situation is that the mid-ground politically is become more and more elusive with every rocket fired, settler home constructed or drone guided missile dropped.

The brakes have to be slammed on here as an opinion.

Each side is in danger of dehumanizing each other- and this is a downward spiral.

In an attached article in CC today by Bruce Anderson (Independant) mentions;

"Species pseudo-differentiation": if you decide that your enemy is from a different and lower species, it is much easier to kill him in battle.

You can find this all over.

The thing is that the stakes are so high and repercussions so serious that any loss of disciplne from the IDF has massive fallout potential... this as the next phase may be to enter into Urban combat- with approximately 15,000+ Hamas fighters who don't care about using whatever shields they can lay their hands on.

A Hamas suicide bomber can blow up a train carriage, a school bus or a nightclub full of revellers and it is translated (by some deluded individuals) as freedom fighting. An IDF missile goes astray, a burst of machine gun fire at something construne as the enemy but isn't or it just all goes to pot- and you've got about 3 billion Al Jazeera subscribers on your back.

A tight rope is being balanced on here with no net.

[Geo]

If Hamas did stop fighting Israel, it would lose all purpose and fracture again with an even more nihilist splinter group becoming the palestinian 'government'.
Its less about jews and islam and more about palestinian 'entitlement'.

[Calum]

What is there to talk about? Hamas does not recognise Israel and wants to commit a second holocaust.

[Jonathan]

Er, Daniel, Israel did unilaterally hand back Gaza.It became a terrorist base.

[Oskar Jarneving]

Looking at it from an outside perspective I firmly believe that Mr. Finkelstein misses the point. He agree on that destroying Hamas will not lead to peace. He argues that not destroying Hamas will not lead to peace neither. Am i correct? Then my question is; why destroy Hamas? The outcome will be the same. Only that forcing into Gaza results in the slaughtering of innocent children and women. And that will not help Israels matter at all. Five years from now, Hamas will have a new organisation and new arms, and the conflict starts again.

In my opinion Israel's behaviour is incredibly unresponsible and shortsighted. Israel must begin communicate with the international community. The same goes for Hamas.

[Jonathan]

Thank you Daniel for this excellent piece. The overwhelming majority of Israelis desire peaceful relationships with our neighbours. The problem is that they do not wish to live in peace with us. If we could be certain that giving up more land would lead to a permanent and proper peace between us and the Palestinians we would pursue it with vigour. However experience has shown us that this is not the case.
What westerners completely fail to understand is that conflicts in the middle east are never simple and last for eternity. One only has to look at the myriad wars and disputes that exist within the middle east in which Israel has no part at all.

[F Khan]

Until the root cause isnt addressed there can never be peace! Israel continues to occupy palestinian lands violate all treaties, murder civilians indiscriminately, control resources/aid, enforce blockades and then blame organisations such as Hamas for the problem. If you look at the current situation where were the media reports/evidence to indicate that Hamas ended the 6 month ceasefire by firing rockets into Israel? We are only told so by Israel but not given any evidence. Israel is basically punishing the people living in Gaza for electing Hamas into power.

[Richard, London]

Rabbi Lerner, in his well-meaning article, ascribes a degree of rationality and strategy to Hamas, and it is not clear that they have one (outside the battlefield). Do these terrorist movements even want peace? Perhaps they are happy with the status quo. Might peace not threaten their existence, and the power of senior militants?

[Lawrence]

There must be no room to talk to murderers who seek to kill Jews, and behave like the Nazis - they even use the same propoganda.

[peter]

Well said and clearly explained. The other question is why does liberal opinion desert Isreal so readily? I can only postulate it is the sentimental love of the underdog, particlarly indulged by we Brits. But of course it depends on the perspective, since it is Isreal who is the underdog when viewed as an island in the Arab world - a world with the oil resources to fund a potentially good quality of life for Palestinians, whether in the West Bank, Gaza or permanently in their 'refugee lands' of the past 60 years.

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

Thank you, Daniel. So elemental a question, yet one rarely asked in the mainline press.

The world is horrified by Israel's bombing of this densely populated area, and rightly so, but the bombing is only a more intense horror than the blockade.

The word “blockade” comes so easily, so cleanly, without any feeling for what it reality means. It is one of that class of terms you find dissected in Orwell’s great essay, “Politics and the English Language.” It truly means here an entire population is abused and tortured for months because it voted the wrong way.

I do think most of us, if treated in this fashion in our homes by a foreign power, would use any means at hand of protesting and fighting back, even if that fighting is hopeless, as it is. It was, I believe, a former Israeli Prime Minister who said that if he were a Palestinian, he would be a terrorist.

The blockade and the bombing and the invasion have nothing to do with homemade rockets. Those rockets long predate the Hamas government.

And defenders of Israel’s bloody excesses insist on muddying the water by saying that the rockets are the reason for this mass murder, for that is just what it is, mass murder.

Israel's secret service, Shin Bet, quietly subsidized Hamas for years, deliberately creating a future competitor for Fatah. It clearly never feared Hamas.

Hamas prospered. Why? Partly because it served many humanitarian needs in Palestine with perhaps ninety percent of its work being humanitarian, but also, of course, because of the endless, grinding oppression of Israel’s Apartheid.

When Hamas finally was elected in a cleaner election than that of George Bush, it was also in large part because the poor people of Palestine had become exhausted by the corruption of Fatah. Just as Americans with Obama, Palestinians wanted a fresh start with some people that seemed to be doing something right.

Yes, Hamas mouths anti-Israel stuff, but so what? Israel is full of people saying ugly anti-Arab stuff. It is not hard to find a number of disturbing quotes by fairly prominent Israelis calling Palestinians “roaches” and “vermin.” There are also prominent advocates of simply driving all the Palestinians under an artillery barrage across the Jordan River. Others are on record as saying they should be “eliminated,” whatever was meant by that chilling word.

As in international affairs generally – what someone like Nixon or Bush has said of Russia or Cuba – I do not focus on such statements, and when a government does focus on them, you know it is being dishonest. Governments and politicians everywhere make statements that do not reflect their actual behavior. And just so, Hamas.

It is always actions that count. So what have Israel’s actions been?

Israel immediately said an elected government was a bunch of terrorists.

Israel refused even to talk to the government although that government indicated on more than one occasion it was willing to talk to Israel and to work towards some kind of modus vivendi.

You really do not have to like your neighbor to get along with him or her. Peace requires that, often. It is the common experience across much of humanity. And with so much at stake, you might expect Israel to show some slight flexibility and even generosity. Look at the immense sacrifice of Anwar El Sadat for peace.

And it was not Arabs who gave the world the Holocaust, the event that gave the final impetus to the foundation of a state that had been talked and written about for a century previously. Yet it was Arabs who were made to pay the price with land and homes and olive groves that go back countless centuries. Now they continue to pay with abuse and severely oppressive conditions.

After all, events around Israel’s creation as a state – especially including the bloody terror of gangs like the Stern, Irgun, and Lehi - did create the circumstances of these unfortunate people, as every honest Israeli knows. So why not some flexibility and generosity towards future peace? But we never see that from Israel. We only see one-sided conditions set even for talks decade after decade, the one-sided conditions today including the arbitrary removal of an elected government.

But Israel wasn’t satisfied with just ignoring and calling an elected government names: it arrested illegally a major part of that government, literally kidnapping them. Likely, they have been tortured for information, as Israel has practiced torture on prisoners from its founding. And it boldly assassinated many other members of Hamas using Hellfire missiles from its jets, killing scores civilian bystanders in the process.

These arrests are of course on top of something like 9,000 illegally-held Palestinians in Israeli prisons, Israel releasing a token couple of hundred every once in a great while, with great fanfare and publicity, to bolster the public image of Abbas and a party which was rejected in free elections.

Hamas, of course, achieved precisely the early promise of Israel's secret service by ending up fighting Fatah. The events weakened the voice of Palestinians and gave Israel fresh themes in its ceaseless efforts against Palestinian nationalism.

You must remember, Israel has never really given up the dream of Greater Israel. As late as the Camp David talks with Jimmy Carter, the then Prime Minister of Israel, an old Irgun terrorist himself, kept bringing it up as a needed goal of Israel’s, and there are many quotes on record by famous Israelis supporting this clearly destructive goal.

Of course, were Israel simply to seize these areas, something it is perfectly capable of, there would be worldwide revulsion and rejection. But the impulse nevertheless is undeniably there, always quietly working away in Israel’s plans, policies, and negotiating postures. Greater Israel includes Gaza, the West Bank, Southern Lebanon, and a slice of Syria. It is based on interpretations from ancient texts, there being no maps worthy of the name from two millennia ago.

Once Hamas was left with only Gaza – a weak and vulnerable place, effectively the world’s largest outdoor prison camp, surrounded by fence, and with no ability to receive anything by land, air, or sea except with Israel’s permission – the stage was set for today’s events. Hamas in Gaza was ready to be strangled.

The leader of Fatah, Abbas - a weak and ineffectual man whose party, in fact, lost an election but “leads” and is the only figure Israel even pretends to talk to – was left in the West Bank with Israeli and American protection and help, Israel actually supplying guns to Fatah during the struggle.

Abbas appears to be a man with whom Israel can work, but that means a man with no democratic position, a weak voice, and a somewhat step-and-fetch-it public posture. What does this say of Israel’s genuine respect for democracy and human rights?

Here is an actual quote from an early Lehi publication. Its vicious tone was fully realized in and around events of 1948 which included frightening Palestinians into stampeding away with false radio broadcasts and genuine village massacres:

“Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We
are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us
the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the
world: "Ye shall blot them out to the last man." “

The day Israel completely gives up on the idea of Greater Israel and the day it begins treating its neighbors with respect as human beings is the day we will see the foundations of peace.

For sixty years Israel has maintained what an early Zionist advocated, an “iron wall” towards its neighbors. And it has manipulated events time and again with black ops – as Shin Bet’s subsidizing Hamas or the horrific attack on an American spy ship during the 1967 war in an effort to draw the U.S. in, or the assistance towards Apartheid South Africa’s becoming a nuclear power in exchange for strategic materials.

Well, you cannot make peace with an iron wall.

[Michael May]

John Chuckman seems to forget about terror attacks, by Palestinians, on Israel. These are not in any way isolated instances.

The last fifty years have seen state and non-state Muslim actors throw themselves against Israel and her citizens. No amount of talking has ever produced results.

Every deal that has ever been offered has been broken (in most cases by the Muslim side of the equation).

Given that talking doesn't work, and that deals don't work, that turning the other cheek always seems to end with some maniac setting off a bomb belt on a bus (Londoners should empathise with this), what can one do?

When a third party, like the EU, puts troops with guns in the middle, and uses force to ensure the separation, maybe I'll believe that third parties have anything meaningful to contribute.

In the meantime, enjoy the caliphate your policies are entrenching in your own democracies.

[Adam]

8 years, 8 years Hamas has been launching rockets into israeli towns, let us just stop for a moment and clarify, not into settlements, not into fanatic right wing settler population, not into disputed land but into an internationally recognised sovereign state and its civilian population.
during those 8 years Israel has completely withdrawn from Gaza dismantled any and all settlements there and removed all settlers only to find the missile attacks increasing due to greater Hamas Control over the territory and the ability to launch from closer range. Imagine for a moment an extremist separatist movement taking power in Scotland hell bent on repaying England for the centuries of wrong doing and occupation firing missiles into cities in northern Britain on a daily basis, How long before the British government reacts?.
all this outrage at disproportionate civilian casualties coming from the UK reeks of self righteousness, how many Iraqi and Afghani Civilians have died in the last five years as a result of a war that England along with the united states has waged thousands of miles from its own borders for reasons as of yet unknown? running close to a 100,000 when I last checked in Iraq alone http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ far more then Palestinian civilian casualties in all the years of the conflict added up,
In that time how many missile (or any form for that matter) attacks by Iraq on the UK?
As a general rule one would do well to clean his own house before commenting on the state of another's.
I know I might be coming across angry so I will give some background: I was born in England to Israeli parents, moved to Israel at the age of 4 and returned to live in the UK about 7 years ago, I was brought up in the Israeli peace movement and in Israel would be considered a strong Left winger, my believes have always been and still remain that the only long term solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict is a peace founded on a Palestinian state on all the concerned territory with Jerusalem as a joint capital for both people and a recognition of displaced status for people forced from their homes. these believes have never changed but they cannot and do not exist in a vacuum, and can only come to be if reality and not only Ideals are taken into concentration. I get frustrated with the views taken of Israel and its actions in this conflict these days in a way that I never used too because they seem to be based on a blind idealisation of right and wrong, black and white with complete disregard to the facts of recant history, the occupation was a mistake, a wrong that needed (and still needs) to be put right, but the biggest mistake in the attitudes that seem to prevail in Europe especially is that the current violence is a result of the occupation, it is not, it is in fact a result of the peace process, this is painful to say and by no means a suggestion that the peace process should be abandoned, but it is a fact non the less. I was living in Israel in the early Nineties and can tell you that the mood was euphoric the overwhelming majority of the Israeli population was behind the peace processed and truly believed that the conflict was coming to an end, but what happened in reality was that every concession handed to the Palestinians was used to find new ways of attacking civilians in Israel, it is easy to forget but suicide bombings did not occur before the peace process began, Israel armed Palestinian security forces and helped train them only to find these weapons and skills turned on Israeli civilians. Non of this is to say that the peace process was a mistake but the results of it cannot be ignored. to wrap things up in a less harsh tone then that in which I started It must be remembered that any elected government in Israel Is not elected to end the conflict but to protect its citizens, it is my belief that when all is said and done the two are still intertwined but such a conflict takes a long time to untangle and is bound to suffer ups and downs during that time if the two elements are found to be opposing the first duty of the government must be to protect its citizens, would you not expect your government to do the same?

[Paul Freeman]

Of course Israel should talk to Hamas. In fact I am sure Israel does so, via intermediaries. They just don't like the non-answers they get. I think Mouse's idea is fine and noble, why not give the Palestinians lots of money via the EU and other countries to build a decent society? Oops, that's been happening for forty years and look where we are....Hamas. Outside intervention will end this, nothing else, and if we value the West we'd better make sure it's UN and Western intervention, and not Iran's.

[Patrick]

When two cultures hate and distrust each other as much as this then dialogue will lead to nothing. Let the Jews and Muslims fight. One side will win and then it will be over.

[David Katz]

The question should not really be "Should Israel talk to Hamas?" but perhaps "How could Israel talk to Hamas?". Hamas is an organization that in its founding charter cites the complete destruction of Israel as one of its primary aims.

Indeed, reading the charter proves quite illuminating, with quotes from Islamic hadiths such as "The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)."

So how does Israel talk to someone like that, exactly? You can't. The only thing that can be done now is to remove Hamas' ability to attack Israel by force. It's pretty much the last ditch option we have here.

Those who spend their time marching through London, wearing keffiyehs and waving signs with idiotic statements such as "We Are Hamas" are supremely ignorant. They don't really know the facts behind the war, believing it's something akin to the situation with the dictatorship in South Africa, rather than a liberal democracy fighting for its existence. If they really want to make such statements, perhaps they should go live in Sderot or somewhere, and have rockets fired at them all the time. Would they still identify with Hamas then? That's an interesting question.

[Yalf]

Hamas is a fanatical religious organization.You can't talk about peace with fanatics.It's like talking about rationalism with Torquemada.

[mauro]

700 mental ill people in Israel are from the region that suffers from rockets booms around Gaza in the last 3 month.

Yes, people living in Israel near Gaza – 400.000 - have an armored room in their house or apartment, because Israel was aware even 10 years ago, that terrorists will use missiles.

700 mental sick people do not function normally and need special treatment.

700 – Journalists count Gaza casualties. They don't count Israeli mental sick people, affected by the booms and strikes of rockets.

Please, visit our hospitals. There you will found the truth about the situation in Gaza now and why Israel reacted against Hammas.

Mauro - Israel

[Jonathan]

Has John Chuckman been asleep for the last 15 years or is he just so full of rabid anti Israel hatred that he has failed to notice that Israel has given up the dream of greater Israel and handed back 100% of Gaza and 85% of the so called west bank? I mean why let facts get in the way of a good rant. We are told not to be bothered about what Hamas is saying now , which in a nutshell is that we will never, never stop fighting Israel with every voilent means at our disposal, but at the same time Chuckman can't wait to bring up a 60 year old quote from an organisation that no longer exists and vest it with grave meaning.
People like Chuckman do not begin to help the situation. They are part of the problem.

[absolutetruth0]

The problem here, I feel, is simply that Hamas forces a paradox in the region, which in turn forces Israel to take actions which are in direct contravention of it's overall objective.

Hamas, like any other military organisation is willing to sacrifice the lives of it's soldiers. The IDF is no different... people sign up ready and willing to die for their cause, even where they are sent to fight under conditions that they may not feel is necessary.

Israel does accept that it has a duty to ensure that any action it takes is either in response to threats to its civilians, or is an action which does not put it's civilian population at risk.

Hamas, on the other hand, forces a paradoz because of it's position on the killing of the people for whom it is both responsible and accountable. Hamas frequenly and as a matter of it's overall strategy fully accepts that it's own citizens will suffer and be killed as a result of its military actions towards Israel. The paradox is that the Israeli's, who are the only of the two antagonists to support the preservation of human life, then take military decisions based on political pressures to respond to the threats their civilians face, and consequently take actions which inflict massive suffering on Palestinians, and which contradict what they say their aims are.

Both Hamas and Israel are to blame for this, but it is very clear that the problem cannot be levied upon either Hamas or Israel. The problem is not that either party is intrinsically evil, but that the relationship that exists BETWEEN them is toxic because the relationship dynamic is based upon the suffering that both peoples have been forced to endure by the political failure of those that represent them to remedy the realtionship sufficiently.

This is why the conflict will continue until one party is willing to START a ceasefire and seek alternative means of communicating to eachother. Currently, Israel and Hamas only communicate with eachother by the exchange of acts of violence. What they need is an intermediary that is willing to talk to BOTH parties. In this regard, the people who are responsible are the political entities in this world who task themselves with intervening in the process, but who refuse to talk to Hamas. Blair... Middle East envoy? The Quartet does not allow him to talk to Hamas on the basis that it is a terrorist organisation. The Quartet needs to change it's approach and allow Blair to engage with Hamas on the grounds that it is a "democratically elected entity".
The international community must understand that excluding Hamas from peace process talks means that Hamas's only method of communication is via terrorist action, and until Hamas is given another way to express itself, then the relationship between Hamas and Israel can never make any progress and never be repaired.

To conclude, I would say that in every conflict in history, there have been verbal exchanges before any kind of ceasefire has been implemented. This conflict is no different, and Hamas need to believe that they can be part of a process that allows them to express their concerns effectively, while simultaneously allowing the international community to impress upon Hamas that, once it has been elected, it's primary concern should be to take no actions that risk suffering being inflicted on the people whom they have a duty to represent.

Israel, of course, is wrong in taking such disporportionate military action. BUT... if Netanyahu gets in at the next election, then he will introduce a policy that makes no concessions to Palestinians, and would extend the current military operations to include an effective re-annexing of Gaza. This may seem liek a full scale war, but it is nothing compared to what will happen if Kadima lose the next election.

It also makes all of us exist in a paradoxical situation... we want peace, but we know that Israel can't have it unless Hamas steps up to being FULLY ACCOUNTABLE for the consequential suffering of it's people that arises from it's attacks on Israel. At the same time, we know in our hearts that Israel is wrong to to do this to the Gazans. We need to really ask ourselves, though, if there is any other option? If Israel did nothing, then after the next election, a Netanyahu administration would engage in an offensive to wipe out Hamas. This administration does not want that... it simply wants Hamas to commit to a ceasefire that will form the foundation for the reparation of the relationship that exists between the Israel and Hamas.

A ceasefire is the only option, but ISrael cannot do it until the rocket fire stops, and Hamas is currently perfectly at ease with the idea that it's own people will die in the process.

Come on Hamas... realise that if you call a ceasefire... YOU WIN.

[Richard Young]

There are only two outcomes: peace and the annihilation of one or both sides. Assuming we don't want the annihilation options (although plenty on both sides would countenance it for the other, sadly) and that neither will come about at the snap of someone's fingers, how do we get to peace? Well, not shooting is a start. Then everyone has to talk.

For the process to get past stage one - there have been ceasefires before - one side is going to have to be big about this. And given that Israel is a bona fide state, I can't help feeling Israel needs to be big about it. It needs to prove it won't allow extremists at home to dictate policy and extremists in Gaza and elsewhere to become the dominant voice for the people they move amongst. That means moderate and proportionate responses to rocket attacks - hard as that may be to stomach.

That's not happening now - and although I can't pretend to understand Israeli politics, I can't help feeling an electoral system that produces fragile and fragmented coalition governments is partly to blame for the aggression we're seeing. This thing needs ten years of political stability on both sides for any sort of decent dialogue to get going. Some lives will be lost, on both sides, as extremists attempt to justify their existence while things get going. But eventually, maybe, we might end up with a broad peace.

(And, yes, I appreciate this is unlikely.)

[Linda Dial]

Hamas declared the truce over. When the truce is over, the war is back on, as evidenced by Hamas' prompt launching of unprecedented numbers of rockets at Israel. This was Hamas "talking". Hamas asked for everything they are getting on a silver platter. What's going on now is a form of communication, a kind of "talking". Israel started "talking" on 26 Dec. Their responses to Hamas' messages are loud and to the point. To translate, Hamas is saying, "I am going to nickel and dime you to death!" and Israel is saying, "I raze your nickel and dime and give you no quarter! Though middle eastern languages can be difficult to grasp, Israel and Hamas are deep in conversation at the moment.

[Mark]

Hamas has already said that they will recognise Israel if the Palestinians are given a state along the 67 borders, which means the land the UN recognises as Palestinian.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7358188.stm

[A Walton]

Many Palestinians have supported Hamas,even though they knew what their policies are. So by continuing to attack Israel, what else can they expect. They also generally become parasites. Expecting the world to look after them, while obtaining weapons.Those organisations including our useless Brown, say Israel should stop, which means turning a blind eye, while their Citizens are murdered by missiles. The first duty of any Government is to look after its citizens, a dying art in Britain.

[ally g]

What about killing children? Is that right?

[Mr. White]

Once and for all, Israel have to win this war with hamas. Talking peace or a ceasefire shows weakeness in the mind of hamas. It is a perfect time to get rid of danger that hamas can do in future. Israel have to take hamas out of the picture and let Palestinian authority control Gaza. I hope that the people in Gaza have learn to live in peace by not putting terrorist group in power again. I am sad that women and children are dying from this war, but I believe Palestinian people in general knows that something like this will happen when they elected hamas in power.

[VR]

The situation facing Israel is more similar to WWII, not N. Ireland. Back then the British prime minister wanted to talk to Hitler and you know how well that turned out.

Once London and other cities started coming under the rocket fire, UK did not spend too much time worrying about 'proportionality', they fought the Germans and yes, many civilians got killed, but last time I checked no one blames the Brits. And yes, Churchill did give "we shall fight them..." speeches.

For those of you who believe (like I do) that peace is the ultimate goal, remember that every time two sides got a bit closer, Hamas did its best to sabotage it by firing rockets or sending suicide bombers.

Hamas is the cancer, cut it out. If Israel manages to weaken it, the prospects of peace will be better.

[Ashiq]

Yet again a blatant lie is propogated in order to muddy the waters and demonise the Palestinians.

Israel has never offered the whole of the West Bank to the Palestinians instead demanding that it keeps control of the bits that would allow it to maintain a stranglehold on any Palestinian nation including it's water supplies.

Also it was not Hamas that rejected the cease fire but Israel. Hamas merely asked that the ceasefire be extended to include sessation of Israeli attempts to assassinate some of it's leaders which Israel in turn refused to do. Strange concept of cease fire....

[Bill]

"Israel has lost the trust of fair minded people as a result of it`s disingenuous actions. It has also made implacable enemies of all of its neighbours. Not too clever really."

George! Do Israel's 'disingenuous' actions include defending itself as it did during the 6 day war in '67 or the war in '75?
Who began those wars? Do you honestly think Israel would be any more secure if it returned the land Jordan and Syria lost in those wars? Is Hamas joking when it says (in its charter) that it will essentially annihilate the State of Israel? Who is providing most of the training and weaponry to Hamas? Iran perhaps?

Implacable enemies of its neighbours? Who of its neighbours have ever been anything but implacable enemies?

As for killing civilians and children. Suicide bombers in Israeli shopping districts, markets and restaurants, maybe?

[Francis Tuttle]

The problem with the question posed by D F is what he means by "Israel". Does he mean the Israel of 1948? Or the Israel of the British Blueprint of the 30s? Or the Israel of 1957?Or 1967? or 1975? Or the Israel which has continued to colonise Palestinian land? The Israelis themselves can't agree on where their land begins and ends. Were we talking of any other country without an expansionist ideology-- Canada or Australia, say--the question and answers would make perfect sense. But not with "Israel".

[alex]

Compare Kassam rockets to F-16 bomber. 4 israeli dead and over 500 Palestinians dead in the past few days and over 1000 injured. Is this what you call defending your state.

Britain never attacked Ireland with bombers but they found a peaceful solution which is not possible with players like Israel who want to judais jerusalem, west bank.

Why are we in this mess in the first place? because israel is occupying arab land and oppressing its people. This is why many muslims are angry with the Western World. USA has given the green light for the attacks and how can we take The USA very serious regarding democracy.

well said JOHN CHUCKMAN because everything you said is correct.

islamonline.net

[peter c]

so long as the fundamental cause of strife between the 2 sides remains, the problem will continue. Israel occupies Palestinian land unjustly and must shrink

[mouse]

To all the posters who say "what about this and what about that,
I ask why is it still" an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?" All that happens is that we end up toothless and blind (to steal Ghandi's line)

I take the point that EU has funded some restoration in Gaza ( as the US funds Israel) but is it enough? Look at the relative standard of living of the two populations.

If we retain this mindset, the conflict will go on for another 60 years, with a similar amount of suffering.

What monumental folly the last 10 years have been. Are we condemned to repeat it?

To say that Hamas throws reconciliation attempts away is to misunderstand that we are dealing with " angry children" - can't we be more generous and patient - and just?

[Geoffrey Morton-Haworth]

Margaret Atwood, in her recent book “Payback: Debt and the Shadow Side of Wealth”, asks two key questions: Where will it all end? and Where should I start? She wonders what if the president of the United States goes on television post-9/11 and says:

“We have suffered a grievous loss – a blow has been struck at us that was motivated by a obsessive desire to harm us. We realize that this was the work of a small group of fanatics. Other nations might bomb the stuffing out of the civilian population where these fanatics are at present located, but we recognize the futility of such an action. Nor will we accuse any bystander nation of being involved. We realize that acts of vengeance recoil upon the heads of the inventors, and we do not wish to perpetuate a chain reaction of revenge. Therefore we will forgive.”

Just imagine – Atwood says – the impact of taking such a position, not that there was a snowball’s chance in Hell of this ever happening. Instead, having broken International Law (according to the Secretary General of the United Nations), America now seeks global coordination to counter an economic crisis, which, in the words of Nobel Prize-Winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, comes with a “Made in America” tag on it.

Similarly, I am shaking my head, like millions of others no doubt, at the breaking news of Israel’s assault across Gaza’s borders… where will it all end? Who knows?

But Rabbi Lerner is right, there is no other place to start than constructive dialogue, for a very simple reason. There is no change without learning and no learning without communication.

Of course, communication is not what you say – it is everything you do. In that sense, Israel is communicating very clearly, and the message is one of arrogance, hatred and destruction.

[victoria williams]

Of course Israel must talk to Hamas, so must the EU and the US. One reason for the present conflict is Israel's efforts to divide and conquer and it simply will not work, nor will their efforts to solve the problem militarily. Israel hastried to avoid anything that might lead to a successful peace process - they continue to think that they can agree a moderate settlement by only negotiating with the weaker party. It won't work. The longer this goes on and the more radical Israel's opposition becomes then the more Israel will eventually have to give up. Best for the population that they recognise this and formulate a solution before the demographics overwhelm them.

[ronnie]

Rabbi Lerner this morning was suggesting that hamas would live in peace with a country it wouldnt recognise as having a right to exist and that further that 900000 palestinians would come and live in a Israel as presumably non existant citizens of a country that wasnt allowed to exsist and tha t further Israel should give up the right to control its borders and well just more of the same gibberish. More importantly who did what when and how doesnt really help. what matters is that hamas is pledged to destroy Israel and love it(as I do) or hate it as do others no one can seriously expect Israel to discuss it own annialation

[sherlock]

But, Israel IS talking to Hamas, and they are using the only language that people like Hamas understand.

[Michael May]

"Compare Kassam rockets to F-16 bomber. 4 israeli dead and over 500 Palestinians dead in the past few days and over 1000 injured. Is this what you call defending your state."

Well, yes. If the response were perfectly proportionate, then the firepower of the IDF would be focussed on killing civilians, with a particular prediliction for mudering children (a la Hamas).

The sword was raised by Hamas. You know what they say about swords.

[mike g]

it doesnt matter what we all think, deep down we all know this is never going to end! one petty fight after the other. That is the cold hard truth!

[50/50 no line error]

Patrick 5 Jan 2009 15:36:04. Patrick has got it.

Israel's creation in 1947 was opposed militarily by Arab/Muslim states. They lost big time. Israel won Gaza and the West Bank with their blood in another Arab instigated war to destroy Israel.

If you accept the right of Israel to exist then you acknowledge this.

If you do not, then you support the elimination of the the country and its people. Simple.

They have tried voluntarily giving back Gaza. What happened?

If you (idealists) want to give back all territory ever taken in war, then maybe the US should hand themselves back to the UK? Get real, people. Its not going to happen.

[Adam]

100% correct Daniel. It's encouraging to know that there are still people who see the reality of the situation notwithstanding the anti-Israel propagada spewed out almost daily.

It ought also to be said that Israel (and indeed the US, EU, UN and Russian) policy is not to refuse to talk to Hamas - it is to refuse to talk UNTIL (1) Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist (2) Hamas renounces violence (3) Hamas agrees to be bound by previous agreements reached on behalf of the Palestinians.

Why on earth any country should be expected to negotiate with a terrorist group who deny their very right to exist (and in fact in their constitution strive to attack not only Israel but on Jews worldwide) is beyond me. There is no compromise to be had until that changes.

The way forward is and has been clear for a number of years. Unfortunately the Palestinian people suffer for their leaders' failings; when Arafat turned down the deal at Camp David in 2000; when Hamas force the situation on the people of Gaza. But the fact remains that Israel has no choice and that all responsibility for the suffering of the Gazans rests squarely on Hamas' shoulders.

[tone]

Daniel Finkelstein.........some of your comments are right, but it must be remembered that Israel never gave Hamas, a democratically elected government, a chance. it kept up it's blockade during the truce, and carried out assassinations, which only served to drive Gazans into the arms of Hamas. Isreal must show that it wants peace....before it was established it tried to kill many british soldiers, including my late father-in-law. nothing is learnt by ignoring the lessons of history. as long as the right of israel to exist is denied, and the right of the palestinians to have an independent state is also denied, there will never be peace. as an irishman, i know just how volatile a cocktail of nationality and religion can be. yet, as ireland has shown, solutions can be achieved....but only by talking, not bombing. both sides must step back from the brink and stop causing suffering to innocent civilians.

[melvin polatnick]

Three bearded men are seated at a small round table in a Damascus motel. They have been in discussion for nine hours and the subject is the price of peace in Gaza. The agreement has almost been reached it is now only about how quickly a billion dollars will be transported to Hamas. There have been no discussions about ideology or religion only about the size and delivery of the extortion payment. The men are getting tired and peace will soon return to Gaza.

[Eric]

Of COURSE Israel should talk to Hamas, starting with "Throw down your weapons and come out with your hands up".

[Lenny]

Absolutely not, other than to arrange it's own mass funeral.

Hamas's ideology is that of genocide. The essential problem with Hamas is not the missiles and rockets it showers on Israel, but the core belief that killing Jews is a prerequisite to redemption.

Hamas's ongoing attempts to kill Jews, which have led to the current Gaza War, are a symptom of the far deeper problem -- the ideology teaching that Allah demands the extermination of Jews. And no amount of 'jaw jaw' will alter that!

[Mladen Andrijasevic]

Should Israel talk to Hamas? About what exactly? Should the talks be based on the Hamas Charter Article 7: “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"? or Article 13: “There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by jihad."? Link to the Hamas Charter you may find here:

From Be'er Sheva, under Grad attack, with anger
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/12/from_beer_sheva_under_grad_att.html

[Eric]

Michael May: Mr Chuckman, (or Abdul as he's sometimes called in these parts), is quite well known for his anti-Israel biased postings on Canadian threads; to repeat an old saying, "If you're thinking of giving him a berth, make sure it's a wide one".

[Norman]

(1) what would you do if the northern U.S. states were being bombarded daily by rockets from Canada, or the southern states by rockets from Mexico--and those governments werer firing the rockets?
(2) if the Hamas was able to bring in TONS of rockets each year since the Israelis left Gaza, why didn't they instead bring in medical supplies that they claim Israel denied to the citizens?
(3) going back several hundred years, why didn't the Turks, British, Egyptians, or Jordanians ever agree to a Palestinian state... but only the Israelis?

Norman

[Mike Helswoerth]

When England flattened Berlin during the second world war, in response to German rockets coming in at it us indiscriminately, we took the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. Was that disproportional? Of course not!

[Sam Leith]

Palestinian actions in conducting military operations from within built-up civilian areas, thereby increasing Palestinian casualties, constitute war crimes.

It is important to note that Israel is not required to refrain from attacking Palestinian combatants simply because they have chosen to hide behind civilians. As Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention makes clear, the presence of civilians “may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”

Palestinian attempts to use civilian shields is unlawful. The fact that Palestinian terrorists dress as civilians in carrying out attacks does not render
them immune from attack - it simply makes them lawful targets that are also violating international law.

[Robby]

Hellllllllooooooooooooooo people

open your eyes just one time,
Gaza was under seige for along time,
Israel blocked food and midicine from them, they even cut the power from them, maybe Hamas did throw missiles on Israel but that was to wake the world up they're dying of hunger and sickness and the world is sleeping.

where were you when they were starving????
now things are only getting worse for them, innocent children are dying, women are killed

are you awaken or not yet???

[Barry]

David Ben Guion- First Israel Prime Minister
“If i were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country.it is true god promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. Ther has been Anti- Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

[Paul Henry]

After 40 years or so isn't about time that politicians and media recognised the grim reality of the situation?

There will never ever be peace unless one happens to succeed in entirely exterminating the other. The less depressing alternative (as we have seen for all these decades) is eternal war.

In the face of this, I think a new honesty is needed in recognizing that root of this conflict has always been religious extremism. The Zionists on one hand want to reclaim the "Holy" land and the Islamists desire to expel the Jews from Muslim countries.

So there will never be any peace or any meaningful peace talks or peace process. It simply will go on and on as it always have. Journalists like Daniel Finkelstein should, at least, be absolutely frank in pointing this out.

Personally, I say plague on both their houses.

[Angiox]

The real question is: When the op finish, will Israel have someone (Hammas or non-Hammas) to talk with?

[Diane, Chicago]

Thank you, Daniel, for such a simple and powerful analysis.

It's truly reassuring to read this type of blunt perspective in mainstream media.

[Richard the Lionheart]

I think all of those who feel they need to defend Palestine need to know the history first. Then once you've looked at it, you will change your mind. If you do not then it will show that like Islam you despise Jews and your argument is not just false but exceptionally dangerous and insidious.

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

And an answer to the original question :
"Should Israel talk to Hamas?" -
NO. They should completely obliterate Hamas. Hamas are the instigators here, following on the Isalmic ideology of the destruction of Israel and Judaism. If Palestinians want to be used as Human shields then that's their choice but personally I'd get out, flee to another country and let Israel have the land that is rightfully theirs.

[Isreali civilian]

I'm sorry Alex, but you don't see the complete picture.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, and don't want to occupy the strip. But still, Hamas is continuing to bomb Israel, directing their rockets to us - civilians.
Now, after 8 years of living threatened by not even being able to walk in the street, Israel decided do protect it's own civilians.
What do you thing was Britain's response if it would been attacked by near by country?

Hamas are lunching their rockets toward Israel from their cities, if a F-16 is bombing back, it's Hamas' responsibility for the loses of Palestinians.

I fell sorry that you don't look at the complete picture, and hope that you the British will understand that this was our last alternative.

Thank you for reading, and sorry for my poor english

[Patrick]

Israel would not be on any 'palestinian' land if they had not been attacked in 1967 by armies from Egypt, Syria & Jordan!

Despite being vastly outnumbered they not only repelled the attack, but re-unified Jerusalem (east Jerusalem occupied until then by Jordan!) and gained the 'West Bank'.

The truth is that their enemies don't want peace, but the total destruction of the State of Israel.

Negotiations are not possible under those conditions.

[Alastair]

Anyone who has bothered to read the hamas charter will know that the question is irrelevant. In the circumstances the only potential solution is the absolute and total annihilation of hamas. We must all hope that Israel succeeds, whatever the cost to the Palestinians They made their bed by voting for hamas...

[William H chalk]

if britian had not fought back in world two where would we be and where would we have been if the usa had not at the end supported us
we would be in the history books the same as the jews
some of the stuff I have read on here like for isreal to give up its lands to the likes of hamas
hammas iran etc they have told the world in the media tv etc etc etc that there intentsion is to wipe isreal of the face of the earth
tell me honestly then who is next for the hammas iran and muslim to wipe out
in london they walked down our streets stateing kill the infidels thats us
they dont want peace they want vengence for what we gave them the knowledge and expertes in our universities etc to help them build democracies
and this is the thanks
ultimately if we dont stand up they will when they have the bomb use it like the civilians they hide behind knowing they will be killed
if some loony throws a brick through your window ever day would you try and talk peace knowing he wants you dead not your house just you

[BEN]

WE TALK TO THE IRA WHY CAN'T WE TALK TO HAMAS . WE WANTED FAIR ELECTION IN PALESTINE AND EVERYBODY KNOWS IT WAS A FAIR ELECTION AND HAMAS WON FAIR AND SQUARE.ABASS IS ILLITERATE. BUSH , THE WORST US PRESIDENT IN HISTORY IES USELESS.THE ATROCITY AND MASSACRE HAS TO STOP. WHERE IS THE INEFFECTIVE UNITED NATION?

[Wilfred]

The problem with Hamas and Hezbollah is that they want two realities to exist simultaneously - the path of peace and the path of war. They talk and act the path of war - by continuing with their rocket attacks and denying Israel's right to exist - and then when they are counter-attacked they play the diplomatic, peaceful, victim card - ooh look, I'm being oppressed! It's the tragedy of the good Palestinian secular folk that they are currently led by total donkeys.

[Geoff]

I've read an awful lot of convoluted comments over the last week which seem to me to designed to avoid answering the simple questions that Daniel asks.

Here is my question. What would happen next if the Islamic terrorists got what they say they want?

[George]

Absolutely. And so should the US. Anyone understanding how Israel used mass terror to ethnically cleanse Palestine in 1947-48 knows Israel has no right to complain about others using terror. Begin, Shamir, Sharon, they were all terrorists, with less blood on their hands than Hamas.

[Ros Morris]

While the entire raison d'etre of Hamas is predicated on the destruction of Israel, at any cost to Palestinian civilians, there will never be a constructive and realistic peace between the two sides. There is simply no one person with whom to have a dialogue. It is naive to believe that there would be. For Europeans, and, especially, the Media, whatever Israel does will never be of any use. They want Israel to lay down, supine and die. For them the only good Jew is a dead Jew. It is extraordinary that inspite of the so-called 'dispoportionality' of the Israeli response that there are so FEW deaths in Gaza. Any death is, naturally, unwanted but while the Palestinians continue to use their populations as human shields; build tunnels stuffed with weaponry beneath their houses, hospitals, schools and mosques, then the outcome can only be that people will be killed. The crocodile tears shed by 'celebrities' and the media are an affront to millions of others in the world who are facing terror every day of their lives. From Darfur to The Congo, Zimbabwe, Burma and Sri Lanka. The rampant hypocrasy that Israel has to confront in hysterical terms is utterly depressing.

[Alan]

I despair at the stupidity of Israel's policies. Hamas may not be pleasant but nor are they al Qaeda. They can be negotiated with. Yes, any country under rocket attack would have responded in a similar manner, but given the crippling blockade it's hardly surprising that Hamas fire rockets. Israel may be sharp tactically but strategically they are off the wall. How exactly do they expect to win? What does victory mean? Whatever they do the solution remains more or less the same as the one offered by Barak when he was their Prime Minister; a fully independent Palestine with its capital in East Jerusalem. Hamas can keep their long term goal of replacing Israel with an Islamic state as long as they cease the war and get on with the messy business of governing. The only alternative to this is genocide, which for a huge range of reasons is thankfully a total non-starter.

[Jonny Cavell]

When I saw the headline "Hamas: Israel has legitimised the killing of its children" I thought it would be about how Israel's leadership thinks it's legitimate to kill innocent Palestinian children. It's no surprise to find out that The Times turns this around 180 degrees in a most shameful, biased manner.

[Doron]

even though being an Israeli I have not entirely decided on my opinion concerning this "war".
back I do consider that if Hamas had the ability or that people in Israel were not able to protect themselves and avoid casualties, the amount of casualties would have been the same on both sides. the fact that Israel has so little casualties does not mean that Hamas does not try to harm Israelies only that we have the means to avoid that outcome. Hamas would have been quite pleased with itself to see a lot of dead Israelies. This conflict will not end any time soon, not as far as I can see. and I do not know if there is any way to end it. Wars never did and never will and talks and peace agreements.. well, how will Israel know that they will abide by them? if we do trust them, we might be putting ourselves at risk..

[Mount J]

Very disappointed with this from Mr Finkelstein. Reductionist to the extreme of an extremely complicated situation. Can only mean bias.

[GALE]

ISRAEL IS TALKING TO HAMAS IN THE LANGUAGE HAMAS WILL UNDERSTAND. THESE TERRORISTS MUST GO! WHY DON'T THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE UPRISE AGAINST THESE KILLERS. HAMAS ARE MARTYRS THINKING THEY WILL GO TO ALLAH BY STRAPPING BOMBS ON THEMSELVES AND USING SUICIDE TO KILL OTHERS. HOW NUTS CAN YOU GET? IF THATS THE CASE LET THEM ALL BOMB THEMSELVES AND WE WILL BE RID OF THEM STARTING WITH KOMENI.

[Michael O'Leary]

No one has anything to lose by talking. The management of the creation of peace in Palestine and Israel has been abysmal. You cannot expect Palestine or Israel to be objective. There has to be someone or an entity (USA/EU)to chair and manage the project to prevent backsliding on issue. Clinton in respect of Ireland could always be relied on to break impasses and talk respectfully to parties, cajole, bully but never to disrespect people or parties. The same cannot be said of the Bush administration. Project management on this issue has been abysmal. If these people (US/EU/ISRAEL/PALESTINIANS)were working for a private company they would have been fired for incompetence. Bush could not care, Blair is out of his depth, Rice is a poodle, EU is not coordinated, Israel is playing games, Palestinians are not getting respect and proper treatment or results.

[Richard Prior]

Daniel, As always you clearly parameterize the arguments.

Hamas have today declared terrorist intent against Israeli citizens globally.

This is a declaration of war against the world & I would therefore vote for the complete obliteration of any terrorist organisation that has made such declarations.

[Jim Oliver]

What short memories we all have.
Throughout most of my lifetime there were "the troubles" in Northern Ireland. British government after British government stated that "We will not negotiate with terrorists". And the troubles went on.
Until somebody found a way for Sihn Feinn and the British and Irish to all sit down and talk it through.

Daniel Finkelstein's opinion:
"The problem with Michael Lerner's article is that he thinks that since not talking to Hamas and not dealing with them doesn't work, that talking to them must work. This, however, doesn't follow."
may sadly be so, but, I cannot see that forty or so years of bombing and killing Palestians has brought a solution, neither can I see that a further forty years of the same will prove any more successful.

The only possibilty for peace in the region is for all the interested parties to get together and talk.

Up until now, the Israelies have shown little interest in serious negotiations. Their massive military superiority in the region and the support of the US allowing them to bully their neighbours without the global condemnation that such behaviour deserves.

Perhaps the forthcoming regime change in Washington will help. We can but hope.

[Chris]

It's time to stop pretending that a 2-state solution is still feasible.

[marksany]

we could only talk peace with the IRA once their leadership understood that they could not win - is Hamas there yet?

[Nathan]

Anyone inclined to believe JOHN CHUCKMAN's selective history of palestine should read up on the history of Zionism and the British Mandate.

For me, there are some simple principles at play here. Zionism has only ever sought to build a home for Jews in palestine. On the other hand, every Arab authority in the region has wanted the state of Israel wiped clean from the map. No man of any moral fibre can support the latter over the former. Daniel Finkelstein, while clearly a Jewish partisan, is correct. We know that Israel will never stop fighting for it's survival. What we don't know is whether the Arab world has the collective maturity to live and let live. History tells us they do not, but history also tells us America only elects white people. I live in hope, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Peter Mullally]

How can Israel be occupying arab land? Palestine is the name that was given to Judea and Samaria etc. ie Israel. We have the Roman empire to thank for that, and where are they today? Arabs and Jews have always lived together in various parts of the world, after all they are brothers. Like every family they have problems!The element that has caused the present day situation, however, begins with i and ends in m, it will not take most people long to guess what that is. Thankfully there is hope for us all, because the Jewish Scriptures assure us that there will be a lasting peace one day in Israel. Shalom to Jew and Gentile everywhere.

[Candida]

Video that goes to the heart of the problem:

http://seedhom.blogspot.com/

[Wallace]

Like it or not, there has always been and will always be, armed conflict among and between countries and peoples. Territories and peoples will forever be conquered and subjugated. Israel has determined that Hamas is a threat to its safety and sovereignty and should be eliminated. That Hamas prefers to hide behind the skirts of its mothers and children is a choice they made, and the consequences are predictable and sad. We can object all we like, but IMO, Israel answers to its own populace, NOT to the opinions and whims of a schizophrenic world community. War is hell, folks, and it's pretty sad when we believe our thied party bleatings should have an impact with either combatant. War is hell, kiddies!

hamas wants the destruction of Isreal....How do you negotiate that?

[sammy4231]

Hamas is in total control of the situation. They can stop firing rockets any minute. They don't care about anything except keeping an enemy in front of their victims/citizenry to stay in power. The Iranians, Cubans, Venezuelans, and North Koreans do the same thing, if a little more artfully, by using media to keep the fear factor up; and not by shooting at superior military powers.
If you bite a bear you get bit by a bear. Let 'em fire rockets all year. Let 'em lose.
Shooting rockets and hiding from the inevitable retaliation behind civilians gets those civilians killed. Blame who you want --- I blame Hamas.

[Shih]

Let's get straight. Since Israel launched attacks on gaza. 8 Israeli's dead. 4 civilians 4 soldiers. 3 soldiers 20 injured by israeli's own weapons(tank). Seems like israel is doing a better job of killing their own than Hamas.
Gave back Gaza to the paletinian people only to control every aspect of their life
Oh it's election time in Israel. The top 2 candidates launch a invasion on Gaza to gain domestic support, and forget about their own corrution charges. A tactic George w Bush did quite well back home in USA.
They complain about China having no western outside reporters in tibet and other parts of china( a region they have helped develop). Curretly allows no outside reporters inside Gaza. The amount of hypocrisy is amazing!!!!
Any one with no bias can see through this if they look from a outsiders perspective. Whoever has the best weapons can spin it whatever they want.
The solution is to have all borders removed. In time all the people in the area will be forced to interact and become one. This will not happen. One group has everything(Israel).

[simon o'brien]

For the past eight years the Bush Administration has granted much support to Israel. So as Obama takes office, there is pressure on his Administration to continue that support. Obama sympathises with Israel and vows to sustain America’s interest in Israel’s security, ‘our first… commitment in the Middle East must be… Israel… America would never distance itself’ (Obama.com). Norman Birnbaum believes some Israeli’s are becoming irritated by Israel’s inability to present peace, ‘it is pressing all the harder to prevent American politicians from discussing these problems as freely as they would were they Israeli’s. Obama has made the decision not to challenge it. His stance on the issue is similar to Bush’s. But as tension rises in Israel he may be forced to recalculate the status quo. He campaigned as a liberal, with universal justice being a common theme. So will he break with American tradition and confront Israel’s perilous realism. He and Secretary-of-State Hilary Clinton will face this issue immediately after his inauguration. Israel’s bombings of Hamas targets in Gaza, in December 2008 and January 2009 have led to a humanitarian crisis. 11 days after the first bombings in Gaza, there are 2,700 wounded (france24.com). Most cannot transport to hospitals. Even if they could, the hospitals are unable to deal with casualty numbers say the Red Cross. Half a million are left without water. The American public may want Obama to focus on the economy (the main issue in his election as president) but his views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will have to be addressed straight away, ‘he is going to have to engage with the… issue in a way that George Bush didn’t when he first came to office’.

[nazmi tabur]

İsrael, we know these they can set on fire all the world for cook their egg.

[louis kopf]

Ros Morris,athan,sammy4231,Peter Mullally,sherlock,Geoff,Wilfred,David Katz, Jonathan,Linda Dial,peter.All of these comments are right on.Protect your country and fight it"s your right. USA, NRA.

[Phil, London]

I have read all of your posts, including the articles mentioned, it's very interesting to see a few essential points have been missed.

I will not claim to 'know' the history of the conflict because trying to find it's root makes me dizzy, I have searched and searched. One thing for sure, is that winners in battle will record their own history (thus omitting some of the truth (defeats)).

Before I say anything else, I can assure you that my heart bleeds for those who have been injured, or worse still, lost loved ones. I take no joy in watching the reports from this, or any other place on the planet where pain seems to have such a strong hold. I'm sure I don't need to say, there are many of these, Chad, Uganda, Congo, Brazil, China, Sri Lanka, Burma, Iraq, Afghanistan to name but a few!

I would ask, why isn't the world/UK/EU making such a big noise about these other places, but that would be another question for another article. Anyway, moving on to the points I feel have been missed.

Firstly, the psychological stance of these two nations, particularly in the areas that are closest to each other. I don't know ALL the facts and figures for violent acts committed toward each other because being in London, that would be impossible. However what seems obvious to me, may not be to others, why for example, would the people that call themselves Palestinians, wish to 'negotiate' with Israelis, when most of them now feel they have been oppressed by them, all of their memorable lives?

Alternatively, why would the Israeli - who lives in fear of being killed by a bomb blast created by somebody who no longer values their own life, but believes their act is one of martyrdom and will bring them glory in the eyes of their god - want to discuss niceties? Not to mention the repeated threat that Israel should be annihilated/wiped off the map?

This kind of gesturing between the two cannot bring peace, since those in the direct line of fire on both sides will be fearful of the other!

The rest of the world seems to make this issue so black and white, with some seriously ill educated comments made about 'just talking it out' or 'why can't everyone love each other' - get real, the whole world is in turmoil. Greed, money and religion fuel wars globally, it just seems that it's only this one that gets as much coverage! I haven't seen all you 'pro don't kill the children' banging down doors in protest at what Mugabe and his 'gangsters' have been doing, or do we need to remind you that they use the machetes over there? Don't use that as ammunition to say I'm pro innocent killing, it's quite clear I'm not!

So why are there so many people bothered by this one? Oh wait, it's that psychological thing again... Both yesterday and today, a freely distributed paper on the London Transport system stated the 'killing of a family of 7' and 'massacre of the children' or something very similar. So we 'Brits' who don't bother to read anything other than the headline (because many of us can't) then think that Israel has the full intent, to sweep through the north/south of Gaza, purposely finding innocents to kill!!

The papers/media of the world have a lot to answer for, as usual, they have more blood on their hands!

Secondly, something we tend to negate, is the religion of these two people. I'm sure not all Israelis are 'Jewish' just as I'm sure not all Palestinians are 'Muslim', but that doesn't stop there being links with either party in this battle for 'peace'. I must mention here though that to be part of Hamas, you'd have to be part of the 'Islamic Resistance Movement).

I do not know the ins and outs of these religions, however there seems to be a stark contrast in comparing death in each (when I say religion, it might be better to use the term faith).

It doesn't take much research to learn about the stance of the Muslim who uses his faith (and the text in the Qu'ran) to justify Martyrdom for example. Being careful not to tar people with the same brush, I am only including those that agree with Martyrdom when I make the following statements.

On studying the Jewish Torah, I cannot find anything other than the explicit command not to MURDER (be careful, to Murder, is very different than to kill in defence or battle, or essentially civilians by accident'!).

With that in mind I find it hard to see Hamas/Martyrdom/home made rockets, as any sort of language that indicates a desire to end a war between themselves and Israel/Jewish People. Taking into account your mention of cease fire violations by the Israeli special forces, I also have to agree that this doesn't show much cooperation in ending the battle.

Regardless of this, it is impossible to deny that there is a motivation coming from the Hamas side (Hamas means Islamic Resistance Movement, I ask, resistance to what exactly?) to wipe out the Jewish (under the guise of the nation of Israel). Not only (as stated) has this been voiced in their charter, it's also clear that their god commands it of them!

Thirdly, I cannot condone the continual parading of the idea of suffering in Gaza due to the Israeli people, purely because, when Hamas won their leadership from Fatah (who accepted the state of Israel), the US, EU, several Western states, Israel and the Arab States, imposed sanctions suspending all foreign aid until they recognise Israel (as well as 2 other conditions). It was promised that these sanctions would be lifted should Hamas agree to these three conditions, the other two included accepting some agreements with Fatah (I'm unsure of what these were/are) and denouncing violence. So, I ask, why has it continued since this happened in 2006?

In my honest opinion, to draw an analogy, if you tickle the tail of a cat long enough, he will turn and lacerate your arm... By no means do I condone the killing of civilians, but I do agree with punishment in order to carry out something forewarned. That stands for either side!!!

Would it not be fair to say now, that Israel, through methods of leadership, politics, monetary aid and war, have achieved/claimed a piece of land, in much the same way, that British, American, Arab, Russian, and other nations all have in the past?

Lastly. My prayers for those suffering due to blindness of others. For it is only those actively tickling the tale, whether it's one side or the other, causing the heartache for the majority.

[you plonkers]

Can anyone verify the comments about muslims(moderates included?) and their duty to kill all infidels, is this true?doesnt sound like it...... The exact definition of infidel, is non believer in god, but due to racial hatred, on both sides, the use of the word nowadays refers to white christians or just non muslims in general, the morph of the word infidel is similar to the word 'kaffir'(black people) in south africa really.

[Phil]

Negotiations with the Arab states or their proxy terror armies must be made from a position of undeniable power.
The people of Gaza prayed for war, voted for war, and geared up for war - even launching the first attacks. Hamas has literally got what it asked for.The Israelis simply responded in the sensible asymmetric fashion required.
What people don't seem to understand is that this warfare IS negotiation - the prelude to truce. As for lasting peace? Not in our lifetimes: it would require the reformation of one of the worlds most potent ideologies and the commitment of the civilized world to create.

[victor]

no they do not deserved any talk,
this has already been tried they don't understand it,
they needed to be treated in this fashion.
I don't think people around the world need to think much about it there are a lot of other things around the world which need to be considered or require any sort of interference other than about a country responding to any terror attack against any terrorist group that also for their own Self-Defence

[Matteo R.]

NO government has the right to kill hundreds of civilians, even if it is to stop a terrorist group. It's wrong for Hamas to try to kill Israeli, why is it right then for Israel to slaughter hundreds of innocents?

[Kamal]

This bloodshed is created by the creation of Israel itself. Before this Muslims, Christians and Jews lived relatively peacefully in that land.

If you follow the news, Israel provokes rocket attacks by having settlers attack Palestinians, razing their land before harvesting etc. Israel will never see peace unless recognizes the rights of the original people of the land, not only the rights of the squatters from Europe and America.