Why Israel should not be compared to the Nazis

 

Since my article on Israel in last week's paper I have received a huge number of emails. And I am very grateful for the large majority who wrote in agreement with what I had to say.

Understandably, however, I also received a large postbag from those who didn't agree with me.

One theme of the critics was that I had misrepresented the offer made by the Israelis at Camp David.

These correspondents suggested that what Israel had offered (that I respresented as an offer of a state in Gaza and the West Bank) was completely unacceptable because it did not offer a proper state - merely a whole series of cantons.

I am going to respond to this only by providing a link to an interview in 2002 with Dennis Ross, Bill Clinton's Middle East envoy, who helped conduct the negotiatations. It is worth reading in full, but for the moment I just quote this:

So the Palestinians would have in the West Bank an area that was contiguous. Those who say there were cantons, completely untrue. It was contiguous.

And to connect Gaza with the West Bank, there would have been an elevated highway, an elevated railroad, to ensure that there would be not just safe passage for the Palestinians, but free passage.

An even more common theme was to object to my having mentioned the Holocaust.

The objection came in two forms, often intertwined. The first is that the suffering of Jews in the Holocaust did not justify all Israeli behaviour and that it was deeply wrong to suggest that it did.

The second is that the only relevance of the Holocaust was that it was being repeated. What Israel is doing in Gaza is directly comparable to the behaviour of the Nazis.

Where do I start?

My article did not use the Holocaust as a justification for all Israeli behaviour. It mentioned it as a justification for the existence of the state of Israel. Actions taken by the state have then to be justified on their own terms.

Those emailers (a goodly proportion) who argue that the Holocaust is now a tedious cliche and basically irrelevant (an argument that, I must say, took me aback) were therefore missing my point.

The comparison with the Holocaust has only ceased surprising me because it is now so common.

It is, nevertheless, shameful.

The Nazis were attempting to exterminate all Jews. They established death camps to achieve their objectives, gassing men women and children simply to be rid of them. However strongly someone may dislike Israeli policy in Gaza, however cruel or unpleasant they may feel it is, the comparison with the Nazis is not a good one.

And if the critics wish to make the argument that Jews are oppressing others as they were once oppressed, they need not make reference to the Nazis. There are plenty of other examples of Jews being oppressed.

Why not call it a pogrom? Or argue that the Jews are behaving just like the Arabs behaved to them in the first half of the century. I would reject this comparison too, but I am intrigued that it is never used.

I conclude therefore, that my critics are not searching for an appropriate analogy.

They were simply desirous of being monumentally offensive. They succeed only in being morally frivolous. 

Comments

[Alex]

So Palestine would not be cantons but contiguous - connected by an elevated highway. Foolish Palestinians.

[Adam]

Daniel, it's so refreshing to hear your voice among the tidal wave of anti-Israeli rhetoric. Of course the reason why the Holocaust and Nazi analogy is made (rather than any other) is because it is so offensive - it's meant to be "ironic" that the Jews are supposedly doing to the Palestinians what was done to them. The fact that the "analogy" is in fact a hopeless distortion doesn't matter when the goal is not to further genuine debate, but merely to insult and attack the other side.

I applaude you for speaking up and shaming the people who consistently use this distorted analogy.

The only thing is, I fear that your honest reporting has ruined your chances of ever working at the BBC (aka al Beeb)!!

Alex - you're ignorance is evident. There are obviously going to be two parts to any Palestinian state - the Gaza strip and the West bank. The "cantons" argument is the (false) accusation about the West bank.

[Ian Tinn]

No, there's no comparison with the Nazis.

The Nazis mostly attacked countries that were armed and could fight back.

[ILikeSaltBeef]

As a gentile I find the attacks on Israel mostly from the chattering classes to be nothing more than badly disguised anti-semitism. Of course Israel's policies can be criticised without such criticism being anti-semitic (indeed much criticism comes from within Israel itself)but I find comparisons between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto, as made by Ken Livingstone and others abhorent as indeed are comparisons to the Holocaust.

[Bob Peter]

Great article. I'm interested in why some people in Europe (and the UK and Norway in particular) are pushing collective punishment of all Jews in the world simply because Israel has finally decided to defend herself after 8 years of rocket attacks.

[Mo]

What's about this twisted logic?

The Holocaust can be used to justify the existence of Israel if Israel was founded somewhere in Germany. What do Palestinians have to do with that?

Arabs behaved to the Jews the way they did because the Jews were immigrating to their country as a homeland. Is that as hard as brain surgery to understand?

[Asif]

It is insulting to start justifying Camp David Accords as reasonable and the Palestinians as irrational for rejecting it. The Camp David Accords were a mad land grab. Here is a more accurate map of what Camp David offered the Palestinian "state"
http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Enough of this spin. And funnily enough Israel has the audacity to call itself a democracy when it does this:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054903.html

[r wilder]

Why aren't Hamas compared to Nazis? They seem to have no regard for human life - either Palestinian or Israeli, they want to annihilate a people (Jews). Its become fashionable to equate Jews as oppressors, perhaps its a way of assuaging European guilt for their past horrors. Also interesting this phenomenon doesn't occur in the US.

[Steven]

Alex: why don't you go back and s-l-o-w-l-y re-read Dennis Ross' quote.

[Guy Thornton]

Well, of course, it wasn't just the Nazis. The whole of Germany, Nazi or not, jumped in with both feet to help torture, maim and murder helpless, starving, men, women, children and babes in arms. (Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen) Give me examples of Israelis "sardine packing" Palestinians - forcing them to lie in a pit one at a time so they could be shot in the head. Or of holding babies by one foot at arms length and shooting them. Holocaust? I don't think so.

[Simon Smith]

Useless article. What you forget is that any criticism of Israel, no matter how matter how valid, is usually linked with being anti-semitic and then the holocaust inevitably comes in to it. The big difference is, in 50 years time, there won't be dozens of films made about the massacres in Gaza and Lebanon.

[Nick]

So, Alex - there was a highway in the proposal. Outrageous, 'eh? Definitely warrants a few more dead Jews, I guess. Except I don't agree. I just can't accept that it is OK for the Palestinians to keep targetting Israeli civilians (and to repeatedly cite the Koran as justification, which is what the Hamas charter does). The basic moral argument in Gaza is clear. The Palestinians continued their unwarranted military actions against Israeli civilians, even after a ceasfire was declared. Israel showed restraint for months. What Israel is doing is simply to protect its citizens from would-be mass murderers.

We are also expected to accept that somehow Hamas is legitimized by its being a "democratically elected" government. Frankly, that legitimizes little, and even increases the guilt of the Palestinian population that voted for a party that has killing Israelis as a key plank of its platform. In a nutshell, if you vote for war, you sometimes get it. Maybe the Palestinians should have thought of that?

The idea that Israel is behaving like the Nazis is crass, offensive and also ahistorical - it is worth reading about Nazi ally Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, the grand mufti of Jerusalem. Doubtless, he agreed with the Koran's characterization of Jews and Christians as pigs and monkeys, a perspective still taught in the muslim world.

[luke]

Mr Finkelstein, I too took your original article as using the holocaust as the ultimate reason behind the Israeli brutality. Had the holocaust not happenned, would this be happening? Therefore - the current violence is Hitlers fault, right? When you follow your argument through its hard not to reach that conclusion. Perhaps then Hitlers actions still have influence over the Israeli people - an awful conclusion to come to. I personally will be taking Naomi Kleins advice and boycotting Israel and its products. Brutality is brutality no matter who commits it, and the Israelis are among the most brutal on earth right now.

[Erez]

Number of Jews in Europe 1939: 11.000.000

Number of Jews in Europe 1945: 5.000.000

Percent Change: -55%

Number of Palestinians in Gaza 1970: 250.000

Number of Palestinians in Gaza 2009: 1.600.000

Percent Change: +500%

Holocaust indeed...

[cinzia curletti]

I agreed with your original article and even more with your response. It seems like there's a certain pleasure in comparing Israel to nazi Germany, not just offensive but almost perverse. As if Jews can only induce sympathy when we see them walk around half naked in Dachau, patiently accepting their fate.

[T T Tsikas]

See if you can find Julie Burchill's "A War Too Far". As bad as things can get for Israel, at least it won't be bombed by NATO.

[Ian]

Luke - go back and the read the post above. Slowly this time.

"My article did not use the Holocaust as a justification for all Israeli behaviour. It mentioned it as a justification for the existence of the state of Israel. Actions taken by the state have then to be justified on their own terms."

[Andrew]

Daniel - I disagreed with you, but I give you great credit for replying - twice - to me. You made me realise how difficult a solution is, but I still disagree on a number of areas, though I find your reasoning much more worthy than the lame excuses Dominic Lawson gave in the Sunday Times.

For example - the only excuse he gave for the huge number of women and children killed was that Hamas are supposedly using women and children as suicide bombers...! (So presumably it is alright to kill innocents on the assumption that they may be suicide bombers - perhaps like that 4year old girl being buried - photo in the Sunday Times).

Also he said that Israel rang up people to tell them to get out - so that is OK then, ring up someone you are invading and if they don't leave, it is their fault they are killed.

He also insulted people who are against what Israel are doing by claiming that they must therefore be pro-Hamas (and luvvies to boot). I am not - it is perfectly reasonable to feel great sympathy with the plight of the Palestinians and their cause, without supporting the firing of rockets. (After all, haven't the Palestinians got equal claim to the land of Israel - it was called Palestine up to 1948! A question - what made the jews so special then - was it collective guilt? Isn't this just the same as the guilt we feel now about the Palestinians?)

You are right in that Gaza cannot be compared with concentration camps, but a closer parallel could be the Warsaw ghetto and I am afraid that the current kill ratio of around 100 Palestinians for 1 Israeli seems like revenge, and therefore quite akin to what the Nazis did in Poland, or France or wherever.

[Andrew]

How is being against what the Israelis are doing the same as being anti-semetic? Same as saying you are racist if you don't like reggae music. Idiotic non sequitor.

[Hol]

Bringing up the spectre of Nazism and the Holocaust is a much noted and frowned upon tactic in debates/reporting because the vast majority of the time, it's an unwarranted attempt to demonize someone or something. It's more accusation than comparison.

That's not to say that it should never be brought up - just that it's now an insanely overused debate device when most of the time whatever's being compared to Nazism is nowhere even near being in its legaue.

[Eric]

Israel are not the Nazi's however they are far, far worse than the apartheid regime in South Africa ever was and should be sanctioned in terms of trade, travel and sporting links just as the South Africans were.

[bernard ross]

The holocaust is not the justification for the state of Israel it was the catalyst. The Jews need no justification when the archaeological remains of the entire area show their connection with this land for 1000's of years. Furthermore it is disingenuous to deny the claim when Christians and Muslims owe their religious foundations to the jews of the area. The world ignored the pleas of Israel to stop the rockets and now the inevitable result occurs. The world is also ignoring the nuclear arming and threats of Iran: will the world then condemn the only inevitable result of nuclear war?

[Mac Qurashi]

True, Israel does not have gas chambers and concentration camps like the Nazis did, but the its goals are the same - ethnic cleansing. Since 1967, Israeli policies have dehumanized the Palestinians. They have bulldozed their villages and taken over their lands. Gaza is worse than a concentration camp as the blockade has chocked its economy and starving its population.

[Milton Hirsch]

Bravo, Mr. Finkelstein. When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, the "Palestinians" were presented with the opportunity to create their prototype state. Instead they destroyed the infrastructure left by Israel and launched waves of genocidal attacks against Israel. Were was, and is, the world's outrage?

[Jon]

It is interesting how everyone keeps harking back to the Oslo accords. If the deal was so good why does not Israel not put it back on the table?

I have heard a lot of rubbish about why not, if you thought it was fair then why not now? Or is the deal rather hyped on what was actually on the table?

Why is the great wall of Israel not along the green line or very close to it? Why is there not a settlement freeze in the west bank?

The bottom line is if you were a palastinian and wanted a just peace based on substantially 1967 broders, settlements removed from west bank, shared soverenty over jeruselem, compensation in lieu of right of return how would you acheive it?

Unfortunately it is only the US that can put meaningful pressure on Israel, and thanks to an exellent lobbying US public opinion mostly supports Israel.

The tradegy is both sides think there is a military solution to this, and short of genocide there isnt (and I hope we can rule that one out).

This conflict badly needs some common sense on both sides, and a LOT of pressure for a deal from the US, EU and arab contries. Unfortunately that is very unlikely and we will likely have another 50 years of war.

[Farrukh]

"Brutality is brutality no matter who commits it, and the Israelis are among the most brutal on earth right now."

Here here.

[JOHN CHUCKMAN, TORONTO]

Daniel,

I believe your remarks are short-sighted.

Comparisons with Nazi Germany indeed go too far, but they should also clearly signal you and other defenders of Israel's bloody excesses how deeply many are offended by Israel's barbaric practices.

The entire line, one we read repeated in so many places, that Hamas is responsible for this savage attack is false.

But it is more than false: it seeks to blame the victims for the bloodshed they suffer.

Israel has made not one honest effort to deal with Hamas, although Hamas clearly stated early on that an understanding could be reached. Hamas also kept scrupulously the previous ceasefire, demonstrating they kept their obligations.

Israel simply wants to eliminate Hamas. This is, on a small scale, the way those running the Third Reich did think, although we all know they pushed this to limits of human horror. It is certainly the way apartheid South Africa felt about the African National Congress.

Israel also shows no respect for democracy. The claim is made, over and over, that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

But democracy has nothing to do with behaving as a bully or even a tyrant. The American Confederacy, apartheid South Africa, France in Algeria, and indeed Israel prove that. As does America's creation of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

In a democracy, an angry or prejudiced majority can behave every bit as badly as people under any other form of government, and they often do.

In Canada or America, the Charter and Bill of Rights are intended to protect the minority against such a majority. That is the intent, and it is why America has felt it must keep its barbarism offshore. Some respect for principles.

Israel has no Bill of Rights. Likely it never will, because it is extremely difficult to create one that has any meaning for a national identity based on religion.

But even if it had one, likely it would follow the practices of the U.S. in keeping its horrors outside its borders.

Of course, as soon as we mention borders, we come to the issue of what are Israel's? They are truly undefined. They don't resemble those of the international agreements in the early 20th century. They don't resemble those for the UN acts establishing Israel.

Anyone knows you talk to your enemies if you want peace. Israel is no different.

[Adriano Albertazzi]

Daniel,

Nazi's - no. The mirror image of South Africa's apartheid regime - yes. And another thing, I lived in Israel for 5 years and the racism of Jews towards their Palestinian and Arab neighbours is appalling. In comparison, Arab views on Jews in neighbouring countries such as Syria, Jordan, Lebanon were far more moderate and civilised. Something that people like yourself should do well to highlight as Israel is fast losing the goodwill that many have afforded it for a long time.

[reasonable doctor]

For those who know their history, I would like to give a medical parallel.
Transplantation surgery involves a foreign organ into a "host" body. Needless to say, the body always rejects this intrusion and tries to destroy it. what medics do is "suppression" of the immune system, otherwise the transplanted organ will die, and may kill the body with it.
Arabs do not think in years and decades, but in centuries. They have seen invaders, occupiers and other brutes come and go, indeed they have been so themselves.
When the oil dries up from the Arab desert, and it becomes useless to the west, the latter will have no interest in protecting neither Israel nor the rotten Arab despots. Only then can Palestine be reclaimed for its rightful people. When the American empire collapses, which may not be so far now, the Israelis will wish they have managed to coexist with their Arab cousins, and not to have been used by the Americans in this way.
And by the way, I am an Arab, but of the sort who thinks killing people will never be justified, nor forgiven.

[RICHARD]

Israel blockaded Gaza for over 18 months, and constantly violated the borders during this time. It has now expressed a desire for Hamas not to re-arm. How dare a democratically-elected government have the right to defend its borders! An unarmed Palestinian state can only assist future Israeli incursions into Gaza.

It is true that comparisons between current events and the Holocaust are unwarranted, but the same can not be said of Sabra and Shatila.

[Ely]

1- Can anyone tell me why Palestinian blood is not human? There has been over 900 dead in Gaza so far and more than 2000 injured. This represents 1/3 of September 11 terrorist attacks and still counting...

2- To my surprise it's Israel who had broken the truce on November 2008 when it had killed 6 Hamas militants in a raid. Source: the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
Also this is a journalistic investigation aired by CNN to prove that’s it’s Israel who had broken the ceasefire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

3- Israel indeed had withdrawn from Gaza in 2005 and keeps saying that it had “evacuated” from Gaza. However, the siege of Gaza never stopped: no food, fuel, medicine could be brought into Gaza, even fishing was banned by Israel. In other words a large scale concentration camp.

4- Gaza is 12km long by 4 km large where 1.5 million people living in this 12x4 km. if we know that Hamas rockets do not dissociates civilians from military targets, I'll be delighted to know how mega tons bombs dropped from 10,000 feet could dissociate Hamas militants from pure innocent civilians in such high density of population?

5- I don't agree with anyone who could justify the killing of civilians by any mean. there is something more unacceptable than anti-Semitism, that is anti-humanism.

6- Why Israel had rejected the Arab peace initiative in 2002? major Arab states including Saudi Arabia offered to recognize Israel, establish diplomatic and economic relations in return for granting Palestinians a state within 1967 borders (East Jerusalem, West Bank without thousand of settlements and the Gaza Strip). However, such a reasonable deal, which required no more concessions than the rest of the International community demands, was rejected by Israel.

7- USA invaded Iraq because it "believes" on freedom and democracy to "liberate" Iraq under a forced UN Security council resolution. What about The UN security council resolutions since 1948 that Israel still not accepting (to my knowledge it's the only state in the world who defies the international community with no sanctions, nor military force to implement the UN Security Council resolutions). Here are some few:

* General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948: Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.

"Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."

* Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967: Israel's occupation of Palestine is Illegal.

Calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from territories occupied in the war that year and "the acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

* Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979: Israel's settlements in Palestine are Illegal.

"Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East."

* General Assembly Resolution 3236, November 22, 1974: Palestinian have the right to Self-Determination.

Affirms "the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine...to self-determination without external interference" and "to national independence and sovereignty."

* Security Council Resolution 1397, March 12, 2002: Reaffirmation of a Palestinian State

Affirms "a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognized borders."

For those who need facts, here is a link on what's going on in this conflict. Amazing to see 123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
For those who need to answer-back, please bring some facts and figures. Again, to make sure my position is clear: I AM AGIANST ANY KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIAN NO MATTER HOW ITS RELIGION, RACE OR SEXE. WHETHER DIRECTLY OR “COLLATERAL”.

[Neil]

There is no excuse for Israels actions they are indefencible. I find it sad that many try to do so and paint those who don't as anit-semitic.
The Palestinians have never been offered a viable state. The Israeli's have never been interested in peace. When they left the Gaza strip the continued their stranglehold on the terrorities, continued to confiscate land and harass the Palestinian people trying to go about their everyday business. When they elected Hamas in a free and fair election they chose to ignore the results and were responsible for the arrests of its members and overthrow.
Regarding the cease fire Israel never respected that. They continued an illegal blockade and targeted assassinations. They broke it a long time before Hamas did.

They paint Hamas as a terrorist organisation and anyone who works for them as a militant. So by their reasoning anyone involved in the functioning gov't is a terrorist.

How quickly they forget their history. Israel was after all founded by real terrorists who had the blood of innocents on their hands.

[Jez W]

There's just no middle ground so here an attempt with some questions also;

The manufacturing base of Gaza that disapeared with the Jewish settlements in 2005 mean't that there was nothing left industry wise and from CIA handbook;

"The Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in September 2005 offered some medium-term opportunities for economic growth, but continued Israeli-imposed crossings closures, which became more restrictive after Hamas violently took over the territory in June 2007, have resulted in widespread private sector layoffs and shortages of most goods."

-How would this be alleviated if an organisation like Hamas was taken out of the picture? Would a relaxation of trade routes be imposed with a strong emphasis on audited investment?

Gaza the Concentration Camp (German or British/Boer War); Gaza has very high fertility rate and (all due respect- Bombs permiting) has population life expectancy higher than Egypt- probably the same as Syria/Lebanon. A little lower than S.Arabia and quite lower than Jordan. It's not a concentration camp.

Bernard Ross; "the Holocaust was the catalyst for the state of Israel." The Balfour treaty was signed 22 years before the outbreak of WW2. On the flip side there is much of the planet on contested land; US, Canada, S. America, Australia, Transvaal.

Could an independant Palestinian state of Gaza ever become a viable economic state? Similar highly packed places are at the direct centre of trade distrubution points eg; Hong Kong, Shanghai etc. What would an agriculturally bare land with 1.4 million people within it trade?

Can anyone answer those?

[Sophie Johnson]

No, Israel should not be compared with the Nazis. Taki has a much better idea: ‘Israel can now safely be called the Bernie Madoff of countries, at it has lied to the world about its intentions, stolen Palestinian lands continuously since 1948, and managed to do all this with American tax payer’s money’ (Taki, 7/1/09). Besides, the Nazis only ever used their war machine to attack people who had countries and armies.

[leila Levine]

It is interesting to note that not one of your critics has commented on the carnage and fear created by years of Intifada, suicide bombers and rocket launchers. Perhaps there has been an insufficiency of Israeli/Jewish blood spilt.

[Naz]

Erez - Gaza may have increased in population by "+500%" in 30 odd years, but that's wholly due to the Israeli's caging them in like a sheep is caged in by a sheepdog.

Their might 1.5m Palestinians cooped up in an area the size of Shepherd's Bush, but are they as free as they were in 1970?

I thought as much.

[Rez]

Made me smile the other day.. Prince Harry calls someone a 'paki' and that makes front page news with condemnation from everyone including Mr Brown.. All these people dying in Israel/Palestine? but anyone of any influence is scared/not willing to condemn this.. Is this what this 'modern' world is all about? What kind of world are we living in when death of anyone else but the 'free' world is seen as acceptable? I personally think what is going on in Gaza will have a bigger effect on the world's shape than Prince Harry calling someone a 'paki'.. Judging by the newspapers looks like i'm wrong..

[Thomas]

Why Israel should not be compared to the Nazis

Well the very fact it has been compared says a lot about the situation

Would you again ask that question when Israel fullfills its strategy in the middle east and the only way it can is by using nuclear weapons

[Jabbar]

I am sad what Israel is doing to Palestinians, and also sad for what palestinians are doing/or at least trying to do to Israel. My only question among all the fuss is that are Palestinians responsible for HOLOCAUST? Palestine accepted Jews fleeing Europe, even when America stopped them!! Is not the truth?

[Barry]

Attempts to compare Israel to Nazi Germany are nothing but an example of turnspeak. There is a link between radical nationalists and genocide which some supporters of 'Palestinian Rights' try to avoid considering.
Jewish communities in Europe during WWII were not just massacred by German Nazis but were massacred by popular local radical nationalists such as found in Lithuania, Romania, Hungary and Croatia. These local radical nationalists were not strictly Nazis in the sense that the Hutu, Sudanese Arabs or Turkish perpetrators of genocide were also not strictly speaking Nazis. They just wanted to be rid of their local Jewish communities one way or another. No one would argue that the Ustache was not antisemitic because they had no interest in the Jews was local and that they would have restricted their genocide to Serbs had Jews never settled in Croatia! The Palestinian Arab Nationalists were no less radical then these local radical nationalists. Their leadership spent the war in Germany after all! Had Palestine fallen into Nazi hands, it is not the Germans who would have got rid of their 'foreign Jews', it would have been Palestinian Arabs. In so far as Palestinians are victims of WWII they are the 'victim' of the inability of the Germans to evict the British Army from Palestine so as to allow the Arab radical nationalist to do to the Jews what European radical nationalists were given the chance to do. It is after all the highest form of racism or apartheid to allow the white European radical nationalists to murder Jews but to deny non-White Arabs that right!

[Ranvir Singh]

Being Anti-Israeli is fashionable cos it's easy. After all the Israeli's are always guilty before any facts are ever unearthed. Remember the "massacre" a few years ago when Israeli's entered the West Bank yet no evidence ever emerged!
The Nazi comparison is an historically illiterate( free of true historical comparison cos the Israeli's aren't even close to committing similar horrors)simplistic attempt at an argument.
Yes i feel sorry for the Palestinians (you'd have to be hard hearted not to feel sorry for them).I think both Israel and the Palestinians should make peace but neither is sufficiently committed to it.
At least Israeli's protest against their govt's actions against Palestinians. Nothing similar occurs re Hamas' actions against Israel in Muslim countries or the West.
The thing that rankles me is that mention Israel and the passions rise for so many in so many parts of the world, yet where were the marchers for Rwanda, for the DOC now, Sudan, etc March for these and countless others and maybe, just maybe I'd then believe some aren't solely anti-semitic.
Yet for anti-Israeli marches they come in their thousands.

As for the comment from Mo(hammed?) by your reasoning every ethnic non-European citizen should leave Europe especially as we've immigrated to Europe as "a homeland. We'll use your argument justify right wing violence against ethnics hey? If it's ok for Arabs against Jews so it's ok for whites against ethnics??
" Not hard to understand cos it's not brain surgery!!

[M Spencer]

It's not yet a holocaust, BUT, Dov Weisglass, an adviser to the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, talked of putting Gazans "on a diet" and the deputy defence minister, Matan Vilnai, talked about the Palestinians experiencing "a bigger shoah" (holocaust), this reminds us of Governor General Hans Frank in Nazi-occupied Poland, who spoke of "death by hunger". The real reason for the attack on Gaza is that Israel is only willing to deal with Palestinian quislings.

[Dirk Wallis]

Holocaust maybe not, but a very grave incident that will work against Israel in the longterm.
This bombardment has been condemed by the UN, The Red Cross, MSF, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and many other governments around the world.

The Boycott, Divest and Sanctions movement to bring Israel into line with international law is gaining pace and moving into the mainstream. The EU will suspend the EU-Israel Association Agreement this year, and many other consumers and governments will make a statement in 2009. This will help apply pressure to a nation that doesn't listen to the UN, and has no respect for human rights.

[Hilary Blackman]

Thank you Daniel for giving a truthful and unbiased record of what is happening in Gaza. Why is it there was never an outcry when rockets were first sent into Israel. Is this acceptable to all those who complain that Israel is now trying to stop this permanently?

[ruxana]

I think most people think that if anyone has suffered as much as the Jews did in the holocust, they would be compassionate and benevolent, but sadly they are interested in keepin Palastine in tatters and ruin. To ask the occupied to show logic and sense is itself senseless. No one in the USA or UK would tolerate anyone displacing their land so why should the Palastinians. Would those in favour of Daniels comments above seriously keep silent and placid if Israel was created in some part of UK or USA, If so why wasn't Israel created here or in USA??? A state of Israel in USA would have been more sensible than putting a jewish nation in the middle of Arab-Muslims, how utterly stupid.

[Izhar Khan]

Mr Finklestein, the very fact that you pose this question at all speaks volumes.

[erez]

Nez- So now it's Israels' fault that the population of Gaza inceased 500% over the last 40 years? And is it our fault Gaza is so small? Have you ever looked at the map? Egypt is 10,000 larger then Gaza, and mostly empty. When don't they give their Palestinian brothers some land? What next? Blame Israel for global warming?

[wrighty]

Quoting Dennis Ross on Camp David is disingenuous: he is on AIPAC's payroll and himself Jewish. A better source would be Robert Malley, who gives a much more honest appraisal.

[S]

I am disappointed (but not surprised) that many commenters who clearly are anti-Israel have not unequivocally condemned comparisons of Israel to the Nazis, instead suggesting slightly less offensive comparisons (Warsaw not Auschwitz, for example).

Whatever your views on the Arab-Israeli conflict, such comparisons have no relation to actual events, and as Daniel says, serve purely to offend Jews and Israelis.

Such comparisons remove any possibility of a reasoned debate, and reflect very badly on anyone making the comparison.

On a side note, some commenters have made remarks that the Nazis WERE different to the Jews in that they only used their armies against other armies/countries. Funny, I didn't realise that Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and all other 'groups' the Nazis hated, had their own armies! I suggest these commenters read a history book.

Reading some more history books might stop people making the tired old Apartheid link as well, with the suggestion that Israeli Jews are racist oppressors (and ignoring the fact that since Israel's inception the Arab world has peddled rather a lot of anti-Semitic propaganda; ask yourself why there are no longer substantial Jewish communities in Arab countries to have some idea of this).

[K. Adebayo]

reasonable doctor | 13 Jan 2009 16:14:16

A lot of wishful thinking on your part.... What makes you think the Arab regimes and Palestinians are eternal and will outlast the US and Israel?

[mouse]

Well Dan, I think the number of responses you have got tonight are 80% the other way. What are you going to do now?

.....and both you and Lawson in the ST spent the 1st three paras of your articles on Holocaust references before launching into justifications. It's a common rhetorical ploy - " friends, romans, countrymen,,,,,"

You can't change other people, you can only change yourself. Please give us some solutions!... but perhaps, before you do so, remember the fable of the wind and the Sun?

[PC]

Zionism is raced-based nationalism. Now, where have we seen that before? Oh, yeh, Nazi Germany. Racist ideology is repugnant, no matter the race of the hater. Israel is a spiteful, hateful apartheid state. Time to boycott the Zionist Israeli regime, like we did the racist S. African regime.

[Patricia]

Is there any other group of people who have the necessity of a word to describe those who hate them? Where does 'anti-semitism' comes from? I only ask.

Norway is not seeking to punish Jews, Bob Peter. Perhaps our population is more enraged than most by the slaughter of trapped innocents because Norwegian doctors working in Gaza sent text messages to their friends describing the carnage they were witnessing, and the texts were sent on, and on, and on.

No terror, no killing, no harrassment. By either side. A 20 year truce, as Rabbi Lerner suggested.

[Zedy]

Daniel does raise an interesting point. why don't people go all the way and compare Israel to Hamas! now THERE would be irony!
they would say "you both kill Palestinians" (oh, I forgot, people are still in denial about the fact Hamas kill their own people). I think the problem is that so many people are in denial about Hamas that they think Hamas are too GOOD for us to be compared to!

[PC]

BobPeter: (that a verb, or a noun?) RE: "...pushing collective punishment of all Jews..."

What nonsense! It is the Israelis who are guilty of collective punishment. The Gazans have been under an 18 month long siege, no food, fuel, or medicine is allowed in. Schools are being targeted, entire families slaughtered wholesale, defenseless. This is ethnic cleansing pure and simple. Israel is trying to execute a second Nakba, terroizing the indigenous peoples of Palestine into fleeing the land the is rightfully theirs.

Israel has more UN resolutions condemning its actions than any other nation on Earth. What happened to Saddam's Iraq when he defied the UN is what should happen to Israel.

At the very least, we need to cut of the US funding of this abomination of a nation. Independent Jewish state my ass! More like an ungrateful, demanding beggar state. I hate paying for illegal settlements and apartheid.

Long live Palestine. Down with Zionism.

[Stephen Smith]

Unfortunately the analogy that I would use to describe Israel is as an abused child that grows up to abuse children in its turn.

If what is happening currently in Gaza is not genocide then surely it is an act of barbary that we should NOT tolerate. The permanent imprisonment of a people must be a crime against humanity.

I pray to Yahweh that if I had lived in Nazi Germany in the 1930s that I would have had the courage to denounce the persecution of the Jewish and Roma peoples as evil regardless of the personal cost. I am sure there would have been many good Germans living in that society who were unable to prevent the state from becoming what it became and most likely because of a very effective propaganda campaign similar to that being waged by Israel.

My words are not motivated by hatred. One of the lessons of the "War on terror" is that when we respond to hatred with hatred, violence with violence, we ALL become terrorists. My words are motivated by a repulsion of the hatred that I see Israel cultivating so that enables it to respond with acts of aggression and barbarity while portraying itself as the victim.

I consider to accept Israel's propaganda and to remain silent in the face of the suffering of the Palestinian people as though they deserved it for having democratically elected Hamas would be tantamount to a silent acquiescence of the persecution of the Jewish and Roma people in the 1930s.

Israel only has a moral right to exist when it can be a partner in a just, endurable and mutually beneficial peace with the Palestinian people. If there is a people who would be capable of making peace flower in the desert I am sure it would be the Israelis.

[PC]

rwilder: RE: "they want to annihilate a people (Jews)..."

NO THEY DON'T... They want their land back which was stolen from them, they want the illegal occupation and settlements to end, they want to be treated like human beings and not the untermenschen that the Israelis see them as.

Criticizing a nation is not the same as denigrating a race of people.

and RE: ...interesting this phenomenon doesn't occur in the US..."

I assume you mean armed resistance to occupation. Well, let the Zionists do here what they're doing in Palestine, and watch what happens.

You're point could be taken, however, as saying that the Jewish US population (nearly equal in size to the Israeli) lives in a much safer environment than the occupied territories. In which case, they should stay put if they're here, immigrate if they're not, and live in peace with the rest of us.

As long as they keep warring on their neighbors and stealing their land, detaining them at checkpoints, imprisoning and torturing, etc., then the Palestinians have a right under international law to resist occupation and oppression.

Interesting, the Nazis called the Russian partisans terrorists too, when they were defending their Motherland from invasion.

[PC]

And all this disparaging commentary about Muslims, from the people crying about anti-Semitism (ironic, ain't it, that Arabs are Semites, too?) is the height of hypocrisy.

I've lived in Muslim countries. Was never once bothered by anyone, was gifted by strangers in shops on Christmas, etc.

Of all the different religions I've encountered, not Muslim, Jews, Hindu, or Buddhist has ever knocked on my door, tried to hand me a pamphlet, or otherwise insult my freedom to my own religion and freedom from theirs. Only Christians have ever been so audacious.

All this crap about Muslims wanting to convert by the sword, while the US occupies 700+ military outposts outside the USA, and while the fundamentalist Christians eagerly await the fiery Armageddon in which all but the few that accept Christ (which would exclude Jews) will be exterminated by their warrior-Christ.

It's Jewish and Christian Zionists that are on a crusade, not the Muslims.

[Jonny]

Rnavir put it nicely. Where were the protestors in their thousands for Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia, Tibet etc. I'm not going to say that Israel is by any means perfect, but let's face it, Israel bashing was always and will always remain a sport.

As for comparisons with the Holocaust, this is simply ridiculous. The Nazis intentionally created devices to slaughter Jews, gays, political prisoners, gypsies and others. By building gas chambers and crematoriums for the sole purpose of murder is not remotely similar to the IDF entering Gaza to stop indiscrimate and illegal rocket attacks aimed at civilians.

As a Jew I abhore seeing Palestinian civilians getting injured or dying, but the Holocaust or even the Warsaw Ghetto comparison is way way too excessive. Besides, if there is a so-called Warsaw ghetto in Gaza, why hasn't Egypt opened its border to assist its so-called brethren? I see very few news articles on this matter.

To summarise: It is ironic that Hamas would dearly love to wipe out Israel and cause genocide among Israeli Jews, but fortunately don't have the means (let alone the brains) to do it. On the other hand, Israel could comfortably do this to Hamas but haven't and wont. Who's the Nazi then??

[Walt, Reading Pennsylvania]

Likening Israeli actions to Nazi actions is irrelevent and a red herring.
OK we'll stop calling Israelis Nazis.

Israel continues to slaughter civilians with vicious abandon.

THAT, Mr. Finkelstein is the criticism.
Now attack that statement.
No reasonable person would.

[Nick]

Israel is doing what it should: using force to stop rockets being fired at its civilians. The idea that the rockets are "necessary" because of the blockage is nonsense. Why should Israel not institute a blockade with Gaza? Let the Palestinians trade with Egypt.

Imagine this scenario: pretend that the majority of the population of France voted for a party that was founded with the primary aim of destroying England. The French then start firing rockets at the populations of Dover and other Englsh towns. Would England still have some kind of moral duty to continue to trade with France? To provide supplies and aid to France? Absolutely not. Would England's refusal to maintain an open border with France constitute some kind of human rights violation? Absolutely not. The same applies to Israel.

If the Palestinians want to be treated with respect and dignity, stop targetting rockets at civilians. Anyone refusing to see the difference between deliberate efforts to kill civilians and "collateral damage" that follows from Hamas cowardice (hiding behind their own women and children to help garner civilian deaths for PR purposes) is either stupid, or malicious.

[dave hall]

Why even bring the Holocaust into the debate? To do so suggests a need for justification.

Why not examine Israel's actions towards the Palestinians in isolation, and consider whether it is right or wrong?

[AA]

In the 8 years of rocket attacks on Israel innocents were killed...does this justify the killing of innocents in Gaza? If Israel claims to be a democracy and wants the Gaza to follow in its example why are they using far more force then they did? How would the leader of Israel armed with a .32 like to take on a father from Gaza who's child has been killed by the Israeli assult.

This would be no different to what the Israeli so called democracy are doing...

I love you daniel finkelstein - the only intelligent voice that I've heard in the media throughout the entirety of this conflict. your blog alone justifies the existence whole blogsphere. we minions can only dream that one day our minds will be one thousandth as insightful as yours. keep it up for the sake of our nation's common sense!

[Janet]

I was watching the excellent series on Anne Frank on iplayer and turned the tv on in the middle to the latest atrocities against children in Gaza. The juxtaposition between the two sets of events was startling.

More and more, I find myself wondering whether the psychology of Israel is similar to that of the severely abused child who grows up to become a murderer or rapist. I increasingly find it difficult to find any other explanation for the complete lack of compassion that Israel shows, when you would think that its history would lead it to stand hand in hand with the suffering people of the world.

[Felix]

People are reacting angrily to the concentration camp and holocaust comparisons because, in today's world, there is a ring of truth to it, and they are just not ones to admit so in public. I had thought of it even before the comments from the Vatican, and other parts of the world.

Given Hamas' apparent lack of effective military response, after all the boast of "mass graves for Israeli soldiers", the Israeli allegation of massive arms smuggling by Hamas is akin to the Bush administration's reason for destroying Iraq. We are still looking for the MWD, just as we are now waiting for the so-called Hamas military might.

In the meantime, Israel continues run its version of concentration and extermination camps in Gaza, while the West nods in approval.

Any more argument against Iran acquiring nuclear technology?

[Simon G]

I would say that anyone here calling Israel Nazis has far over-stepped legitimate criticism. Israel had no option but to defend 1 million of its citizens from rocket attacks fired in contravention of the Geneva Convention by a terrorist group (as recognised by the EU)

The UK and US invasion of Iraq has led to over 150,000 civilian deaths according to accepted figures. This is over 300 times as many civilians that have been killed in Gaza where Hamas terrorists have used civilians as human shields. Therefore anyone calling Israel a Nazi state is clearly guilty of anti-semitism.

Israel left Gaza years ago. Billions of dollars in aid has poured in but the humanitarian crisis is a direct result of Hamas using these funds to smuggle weapons and build tunnels rather than invest in infrastructure. Israel wants peace. Unfortunately Hamas is dedicated to Israel's destruction and its charter is full of the most disgraceful anti-semitism since the Nazis.

[patricia hoyer]

Please read professor of political science Norman Finkelstein's(yes Finkelstein)article "Subordinating Palestinian Rights to Israeli 'Needs'". A objective analysis of the
2000 Camp David Agreement.
Source: Journal of Palestine Studies;
the winter 2000 issue.
Google Camp David 2000

[Mark]

Daniel I am so pleased to read a view with which I agree. I can tell you I work in peoples homes and anti semetism is not alive and well, in fact the middle east countries in general are the ones who do not attract empathy or understanding. I am sure their will be many here who dismiss and despair of such views nevertheless I Know for a fact that once you gain the trust of people they will tell you what they really think. The people we are talking about here are not those who live off the taxpayer whist costing the taxpayer money in policing their protests, but the backbone of hardworking citizens. I would say the overwhelming majority, but in fact it was everybodies opinion, that Israel is fully justified in it's actions and while most people find loss of life abhorrent they are also fed up with the loss of life caused by people of middle eastern origin. Many still remember the jubilation shown during the American attacks when innocent people were deliberatly killed. Lack of respect for human life is obviously a huge problem in this area that will take generations to change and I'm afraid the change hasn't started yet. Incidently I am not Jewish and have no links with Israel. I am merely presenting the underlying feeling out there amongst those of a working class, mortgage paying background.You may be surprised to read that I would very much like to see a state of peace and tolerance but I do not feel optimistic.

[Edward Hubbard]

I know there is controversy about whether or not Israel offered the Palestinians a viable state at Camp David, but there is a rather obvious way of resolving the issue. The Israeli President or Prmie Minister could make the following public statement: "Israel is absolutely 100% committed to a contiguous Palestinian state which will include the whole of the West Bank and Gaza. We have no intention of annexing any of this land and will withdraw to the 1967 borders just as soon as we can negotiate a settlement which will guarantee our security." Such a statement would in no way be a sign of weakness or appeasement, but it would transform the political situation.

[William J.]

Thank you for drawing the line, Mr. Finklesein. The rhetoric of Hamas apologists has gone unchecked since this conflict began.

Indeed, the ignorance of middle east politics and cultures on this board--and in the public more generally--is appalling. So may speak with such certainty about an issue they know so little about.

It is nothing short of disgusting that so many would defend Hamas in light of the vicious criminality (not contrived, like many anti-Israel cabal) of which they have been guilty since their founding.

Hamas may have been elected, but they ejected their Palestinian rivals from Gaza with armed force. Hardly a democratic move, and as such their control of Gaza is illegitimate. Furthermore:

* They are utterly unrepentant that their objective is to entirely eliminate the state of Israel and the Jews that live there. Sounds a bit like a Final Solution to me.

* They intentionally use civilians as cover, understanding full well the propaganda value of dead children.

* They break up weddings for playing music and force women to veil.

* They indoctrinate children by way of games and demonstrations to hate Israel and Jews.

* They summarily and publicly execute individuals suspected of "collaboration" without trial or any semblance of due process.

* They use mosques, hospitals, and UN ambulances as military assets.

* They launched 5,000 ballistic missiles into a Israel for eight years, even after Israel has withdrew all military forces.

Please save your breath; these facts are not in dispute, and the evidence is widely available to any pro-Palestinian critic willing to take the time to learn about the entity they defend. Who then are the Fascists? Certainly not the Israelis.

Shame, shame, shame on the Hamas apologists. You play directly into their hands with your ignorance. Anti-Semitism surely is back in style in Europe.

[William J.]

Dirk, please point to a single armed conflict which the interest groups you cite did NOT condemn. It is their exclusive function to condemn armed conflict, and good for them, but don't suggest that their criticism has value beyond this.

[Andy Smith]

When the rockets were falling on Sderot, where were the chattering classes who now call Israelis Nazis?

When Hamas was murdering Palestinians (Fatah members) in a military coup, where were the chattering classes?

Annie Lennox, Bianca Jagger, why were you not in Trafalgar Square as I was last Sunday or in Sderot, as I was, last May?

[H.Jay]

As a Jew myself I really cannot see why you bother with all this 'Rishus' from the 'Goyim', for whatever our people do is always wrong in their eyes. If the IDF,Mossad or Shin Bet were to target individual Hamas people in retaliation for their Kassams etc., then the world opinion and protest albeit not via marches etc., would still be very much evident 'the Israelis are killing democratically elected officials and how do they know that the actual person(s) killed were those who sent or ordered sending of the Kassams, and such like. Even more important about 99 percent of the responders to your article, and to all phone-ins and now blogs I have heard and read extending over the past 20 years or so all claim that Jews have invaded an Arab land, and therefore has absolutely no right of a State of Israel. Given that all non Jews to all intents and purposes believe so, then the whole point of justifiying Jews living in the diaspora and in Israel is absolutely and totally meaningless, unless we address this historical issue to the world and keep on at it ad-infit.,and the Holy One Blessed Be He is on our side and on our side alone. Amen.

[Adri]

It's really very simple: Israel is no longer behaving in a manner deserving of financial or military aid from either Canada or the US. If they wish to continue slaughtering innocent civilians, many of them children and the elderly, then they must do so without ANY support from those of us on the other side of the world.
I am a hereditary Jew and I am ASHAMED of the actions of the Israeli government and military. While I feel empathy for the Israeli civilians caught up in this, I feel much, much more for the non-Israelis, because on top of the devastating losses they are suffering, they have been branded the 'bad guys' because they are *gasp* not Jewish and thusly evil.
As far as I am concerned, if a nation cannot survive on its own without any foreign assistance, then it does not deserve to be a nation. Let's see how well Israel does without the support of the western world.

[Alan Smith]

This is what the Palestinians wanted; they have baited and baited the Israelis and now that they are finally getting their just deserts, they are now crying. You can not have it both ways. They wanted war and that is what they got. About time too!

[T]

Unfortunately it is diffcult to see how the use of violence by a state can be used to force parties to the negotiating table for a lasting resolution, without a permanent military presence.

The creation of the state of Israel may possibly be compared to the creation of Kosovo; defining a territorial boundary for a specifc ethnic group. Like Israel this is the creation of an artifical system of living. Surely it would have been better to actually go with the forces of time and seek to create incentives for people like ethnic Albanians to live alongside Serbs.

Just as it should have been possible for Europe's Jews to return to their homes in Europe.

The aftermath of WWII led to a hasty decision to declare a 'homeland' for Jewish people, which it already was, but this territory is also the homeland of present day Palestinians.

The consequences of drawing up territorial boundaries as a solution to a deeper problem is not a real soltion. A peace process takes time and requires a political solution.

Surely it would have been wholely unacceptable if in Northern Ireland Protestant Unionists invited other Protestants from parts of the UK to go and live there and expand into Catholic areas. Just as it would have been unacceptable for Catholic Nationalists to invite people from the Republic of Ireland to live in Northern Ireland to move in on Protestant areas.

The ending of the Cold War may have shattered the bipolar power struggle, but it also tore apart the idea of ethnic groups living together peacefully in the Balkans. The collpase of Yugoslavia may well have been a natural process, but forcing the creation of a nation state and marking people's identities to mere territories is barbaric, unrealistic and will naturally erode over time.

The world is a place where many people with many different belief systems live, drawing up unnatural lines is de-globalisation in the making.

What is happening in Gaza unfortunately brings up the holocaust and learning from history rarely happens.

However I live in hope that the lessons from Northern Ireland and South Africa will remind people that time changes everything.

The present Israeli government certainly needs to be aware of the consequences for its action.

Let's hope that the Isreali people are not effected if imported goods from Israel into the EU are left on the shelves by consumers.

[dp]

Why not call it a pogrom? Because pogroms were also exterminations, often carried out by the state on its own citizens. A lot like what the Israelis do to Palestinians. Why not call it a pogrom? Well, because it would make them look bad, in having gone from victims to perpetrators.

[Chris]

You seem like an informed bunch of particpants:

1. Can anyone confirm that the British leaders of the time offered a large tract of land in Australia, called 'The Kimberley', to the Jewish leaders (Zionists?) of Europe in 1935 due to the perceived threat to their people's well-being? I believe the Jewish leaders rejected the offer as it was not the 'Holy Land' as promised to them by their 'God'. I read this in an old history book from a second hand store that I have since misplaced, but that was the story. The Kimberley is a truly beautiful place, as any Australian will tell you.

2. Can anyone confirm that the German National Socialist government of the time negotiated with France for the island of Madagascar, with the intention of deporting the Jews there, I think before the war, or at least before the war developed badly for them? Again, I think this was in an old history book, but I'm not sure.

Apart from that, every Nation has a right and a duty to defend itself; 'may the best man win', as the saying goes. However, this is fight between Arab tribes, and as such doesn't concern me, being a white man, and I don't see why anyone else should concern themselves too much with it, let alone take sides or get involved.

[Evin Daly]

Your article last week was the best I have read and spread on the subject of Israel. I am very grateful that you wrote it.
That you received so much correspondence - positive and negative - is a good thing. You have stoked the fires of truth. Keep it up Rabbi.
Shalom

[Julieti ferensi]

Am sorry, but I disagree with these comments.The fact that so many people have been killed in gaza for how many years now..plus these few weeks(which aren't even many days) nearly 1,000 are dead..how many more are going to die? we are just going to sit and watch all those civilians and just a little percentage off "hamas" die.The thing that matters are the innocent children,mothers elderly ect.So not supporting israls action does NOT make us "anti-semetic" I really don't think so!

''We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question - What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said "Drive them out!"'

I suggest you read this it is really, really interesting aswell as not being so biased with facts.'It is time to reveal isreal;David icke'
http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

[Bor]

Why should I be for israel and against Palestine, when all the jews want to do is bulldoze over the sacred sites of Christianity that I hold dear while the Palestinians do their best to protect and preserve them for us?

Also, never heard of Palestine part of bombing an innocent ship full of Americans known as the USS Liberty for hours, killing many innocent Americans, so I can feel the pain of the poor Palestinians to be honest, especially since my uncle was on that ship israel bombed!

[billy]

It seems to me that whoever has power will abuse it whether it is the nazis or the Jews.

[Jay Saxena]

This is a straw man argument: highlight a pretty silly comparison (made by people who were probably emotional about it), let it get shot down - and then claim that therefore the whole subject is similarly suspect.
The ISSUE is that the Jews took Palestinian land by force and have occupied it. Exactly the same as the Europeans who took the Americas from the Indians and came close to exterminating the Indian way of life. The Indians fought to try to keep their homeland, and the Palestinians are doing the same. They are fighting to get their homeland back from an occupier, a regional military superpower that is supported unquestioningly by the US and Europe.

[georges]

Sophie Johnson -

"The Nazis only ever used their war machine to attack people who had countries and armies."

Are you referring to the 1.5 million gypsies they murdered? I never knew there was a gypsy country with its own army.

[julia pascal]

Highy intelligent analysis. I also wonder why nobody has mentioned the killing of the Hamas leader AND HIS FOUR WIVES AND CHILDREN. Hamas' aim is to spread Sharia law. These four wives probably had no choice in marrying one husband. Nobody in the British liberal left seems to have considered the role of women who have no choice. Israel is a democracy where women have equal rights in law. Arab women can, and do, go to university in Israel. In Hamasland they are born to polygamy and no legal equality . Too difficult an area to tackle I guess. Much easier just to call Jews Nazis. There is plenty to criticise about Israel but at least Jewish women are politicians. When this area of Israel-Palestine is rid of all religious fanatacisim and is a secular region, there may be a chance for peace.

Jewish people have alway suffered.
If we go back to its beginnings we can see that they suffered because of the egyptian, then because the couldn't find the promise land, then because they finally found it but it was occupied by another tribe, and so goes the history.

They stablished in now Israel due to the Holocaust, but also because that special region was the one Jahve told them to be the promise land.

They are just trying to get even with the wrong people...

For me, they've been trying to look as the victims, the ones that have always been suffering.

[craig]

I have just returned from three years in Iraq. While Israel has the right to defend itself, I cannot believe that Israel has deployed its elite infantry units, armor, helicoptor gunships and F-16 planes, again a civilian population in a densely populated urban setting. The resulting carnage has resulted in the deaths of 900 plus Palestinians, half civilians, and death of 13 Israelis, incluing 5 soldiers by Israeli friendly fire. The use of cluster bombs(in the Lebanon 2006 debacle),and phosphorus,is essentially murder by high tech. The United States has supplied all the armaments as well as the green light to conduct this invasion, which, makes us complicit by association. How convenient to conduct an invasion, in between the Israeli elections, and the inauguration of Barack Obama. This cynical attempt at political expediency, is nothing new as long as Israel operates with the 'permission' of the United States. Israel also acted by proxy in Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua, in the genocidal war against civilians and Mayan/indigenous peasants, doing the dirty work for the US, when popular revulsion in the US prevented us from acting overtly or covertly.
Israel has become a client state of America and we her protector. The fact that Israel possesses up to 200 nuclear bombs in their arsenals in Dimona is winked at, by her protector,the US, as the hypocrisy is difficult to take.
A recent attempt by Israel to convince the US to supply bunker busting bombs and clear, safe air routes over Iraq failed, as there were fortunately, more level heads to deflect Israels desire to bomb Iran.
I will vote for the first American politician who does not pander to the Israeli lobby, Jewish vote, contributors, or key blocks of Jewish voters, in an attempt to burnish their pro-Israel credentials.

[Caz Black]

No matter what atrocity Israel commits, the Holocaust is always brought up as some sort of a justification.
How much longer will society accept this as a valid excuse for gradually committing genocide on Palestinians? It seems to be a case of the victim becoming the abuser. When will the cycle of abuse end?

[Ceedoubleu]

Daniel, please do not insult our intelligence with the lie about a reasonable offer made to Palestine. It was no such thing - a shrunken state, broken up by Settlements and Israeli military checkpoints.

If you are tired of frivolity, then stop pedalling the holocaust as an excuse for continued Israeli atrocities against Palestinians.

[David Roberts]

I, like most people, understand Israel's desire to defend themselves as, indeed, any country would do. However, it is way that they do this that is the problem with their epically disproportionate actions. Seeing Israeli soldiers parading the remnants of the rockets that land in Israel (which is obviously a crime) just does not remotely compare to that which the Israelis are raining down on Gaza. It looks to me like a forlorn, embarrassing enterprise.

As for those who simply describe anyone who disagrees with a Jew as being anti-Semitic, this is a pathetic exhortation to stifle argument that is potentially massively damaging as the phrase is an important one that needs to be used when appropriate. It carries with it important connotations but is being whittled down in utility day by day. Essentially, it needs to mean something, but by using it so freely it is becoming meaningless.

[Assad]

I can most certainly compare Israel to the Nazis, may be not in the circumstances surrounding the killings. But the brutality which Israel is raining down on unarmed Palestinian civilians. Hitler killed people simply for being Jews and Israel is killing people simply for being Palestinian. Hitler put the Jews in concentration camps and gassed them, Israel has put Palestinian in a huge concentration camp (Gaza) and is bombing them.

[Sam F]

Jabbar, you are entirely incorrect in arguing that Palestinians accepted Jews fleeing the holocaust. Every representative Palestinian body attempted to court the Nazi party - the Grand Mufti (the arch representative of the Palestinian Muslims) sent personal letters to Hitler encouraging his work and offering full cooperation. He flew to Germany to meet Hitler and received financial and military backing.

On the ground, during the Holocaust Palestinians were involved in an escalating war against Jewish communities (many of whom who had lived in Palestine for decades), repeating the violence of the 30s wherein whole Jewish communities were exterminated (i.e. Hebron). Palestinian groups repeatedly lobbied the British government to stop immigration - helping contribute to events such as the turning away of the SS Exodus from Haifa back to Europe where after most of its immigrant cargo where slaughtered.

[Miriam]

One thing I don’t understand mb you can explain.
Most Israeli complain, and rightly so, that Europe and the USA didn't act quickly enough to stop the slaughter of Jews in Nazi Germany but now they say that we shouldn't get involved because they haven't killed enough Palestinians for this to be compared to the Holocaust, should we wait till they do?
I know that the concentration camps are very different from Gaza but you can't just disregard the similarities, the large walls with armed guards stopping people to go in or out, the lack of food, water, medical supplies, electricity .. I could go on but I'm sure you get the picture.
You are right they can't be compared yet but for how long.
One more thing a Semite is an Arab as well as a Jew but most of the people seem to forget that especially the Jewish, I'm sorry but if they can't even share a word how will they ever share a land?

[Jane]

Any Jewish people reading these boards should take comfort in the fact that the anti-semites will always take time out of their very busy days to crawl out of the woodwork.

[Jane]

Patricia Hoyer. Norman Finkelstein is not an objective writer as you state. He is well known for his anti-Israel bias, ergo he cannot be objective. He never states 'on the one hand, but on the other hand', he only ever sees one side of the conflict. You can say he is pro-Hamas or anti-Israel, but not 'objective'. By the way, although Norman Finkelstein is Jewish by birth, don't make the common mistake of thinking everyone with a 'Jewish' name is.

[Jane]

Caz Black. Your comments re the Holocaust. It isn't actually Jewish people or Israelis who 'bring up the Holocaust'. It is detractors of Israel who seem to think it's a fitting comparison.

[Jez W]

H.Jay.

"Goyim"?

I take it because your not speaking Yiddish and just attached that to English, you may mean that as an insult.

If you are; Pull your self together man.

WTF is going on with this?

Israel seems to be in too deep right now not to see it through.

The Hamas seem to be using human sheilds to an unprecendented extent.

Could a Gaza, with all those people in it, ever be a economically viable state- if free of Hamas?

Can Israel see that addressing the West Bank situation is critical for long term peace?

Does anyone (apart from the Left and Islamic extremists here in the UK) want another weekend of protests?

If left, will Hamas just re-arm/recoup it's military capability?

Just a few questions that no-one seems to be able to answer because they're so entrenched-

A bit like the middle east maybe.

[Liz]

Ian Tinn

Oh, are we all imagining that Hamas have been ceaselessly firing rockets are Israels civilians? If that isn't "armed" I don't know what is.

[VA]

I think the comparison with the Holocaust by some commentators has not to do with the savagery or scale of that and Israel's current barbarism, but the underlying ethos that somehow the lives of another group of people are much less important than those of your own tribe, indeed even worthless. Some feel that, of all peoples, Israeli's should know better - hence the sharp reminder.

Unfortunately, like many religions, but even more so, the belief in a "chosen race" is likely to engender such a superiority complex.

That is why i subscribe to the Dawkin's view of replacing religion with an atheistic form of humanism, which would make it harder to sell this sort of unjustifiable brutality to the electorate.