Olympia (almost) burns...but Paris survives

First let me apologise for writing about the antiquities of ancient Greece, when so many people have died in the terrible fires -- probably almost a hundred casualties altogether so far. It reminds me a bit of the “bombing” of the Parthenon in 1687, which everyone now laments as the loss of a great building, forgetting the hundreds of women and children killed in the process.

But, conscience apart, even as I’m writing, it is not entirely clear what exactly has happened to which ancient sites in the Peloponnese.

The good news seems to be that the Greek and Roman remains of Olympia have escaped (and a lot of them, let’s remember, are of Roman imperial date and not from the fifth-century BC well-springs of democracy at all). The Greek Archaeological Service is very good on disaster planning, and almost certainly its fire protection devices, as well as the brave fire-fighters and a dose of good luck, played their part in keeping the site safe..

But the news reports have tended to concentrate on Olympia alone – when, in fact, there are any number of sites round about whose loss would be almost equally troubling in archaeological, even if not symbolic, terms. I think here of the temple of Apollo at Bassae on its romantic hillside (the temple itself is now  covered with a strange almost post-modern tent, as you see in the picture). We still don’t know whether this has made it. Let alone the much less well known temple of the “Great Goddesses” at Lykosoura in the valley below. And that’s before we start to think about the Byzantine churches gone up in flames.

At this point I begin to feel grateful for the dispersal of antiquities around the museums of the world.

Suppose Olympia and its museum had actually gone up in smoke (and fire quickly turns marble to a little pile of lime). At least some of the sculptures  of the key temple of Zeus would have been safe in the Louvre (like the one you see here). And if the temple at Bassae had been destroyed, then it would turn out to be a good idea after all that its sculptured frieze was in the British Museum in London.

This is not an argument about the quality of care these monuments are given whether in Greece or abroad (and almost all guardians of the Greek heritage -- Greek or foreign -- have something to be embarrassed about). It is more the “stuff happens” problem. Nature sometimes seriously messes up. In other words, like it or not in aesthetic or political terms, there is a very practical point to these Wonders of the World being split up.

There’s also an argument here for the old-fashioned plaster cast gallery. If the Olympia sculptures were to be destroyed in both Greece and France, then you would still be able to find a perfect set of replicas in the cast gallery of the Museum of Classical Archaeology in Cambridge (and in other plaster cast galleries the world over). Half a century ago many of these cast collections were themselves threatened with the (sledge-)hammer. Now we are a bit wiser about our fragile hold on the masterpieces of the past – and the need to protect them in a variety of guises.

Comments

[Some Greek girl]

I didn't really take the time to think about your post, but I've skimmed through the comments and I'm disgusted by the amount of pride and nationalism of most of these greek people. They have no argument whatsoever but their superiority, they claim they're the bests, the most ancien people in the world, etc. But they seem to forget Egypt, Mesopotamia, China and all these people that were sometimes far more advanced than Greeks. As for the being the best part, they rely on achievings of people who had lived 2 500 years ago in order to have everyone forget that they are not so great anymore. I'm Greek too and I really love Greece, but I'm lucky to live in another country. Indeed, you just have to take a step outside Greece to see that every country has something special. And Greeks are just as good as anyone else.

[Bob Smith]

What always seems so weird in these discussions are that some of the works in Greece were created by Romans.

Egypt is another example. There is little cultural link between Egypt today and the luck of the draw that placed another civilization on the same land ...

[Ioannis Georganas]

Regarding the appalling message of "Romana" I have only one thing to say. If it wasn't for all the foreign schools and institutes of archaelogy in Greece, very few research excavations would have taken place in such important sites as Knossos, Olympia, Delos and Delphi (to name but a few). The work of these institutes as well as their facilities (i.e. libraries. labs) are simply of paramount importance to the archaeology of Greece.

[Vasilis Tomaras]

After reading most of the comments on the article, I decided to write a few words, mainly targeting my fellow Greeks. It is very sad to realise that a lot of Greeks in a spontaneus effort to "protect" the greek heritage attack the professor using a rude/pathetic approach. Please do relaise that this type of reaction is what provides the opportunity to claim the inability and immaturity of our country in preserving the antiquities.

Greece is suffering a major disaster.. This, would have an affect in ancient ruins no matter how well organised the country was, or how big the support from other countries would be. We all need to respect the facts... British help would ofcourse be more than welcomed, but is the professor in any way related to this??? no...

I try to be very careful in my comments towards the article itself, considering the professor's competence in the area. nevertheless, my homble opinion is that approving/encouraging the dispersal of antiquities around the museums of the world to avoid didaster (or to "spread" the risk), can only be heard as a "light" academic discussion over a cup of tea... Antiquities belong always to to their birthplace and people as sensitive as the professor and all of us, should always be in the frontline to protect them from any possible enemy, natural or not.

[Micheal Cooper]

It seems an inabilty to speak Greek has alienated me from the conversation but I feel it's time for a few people to sleep on it before they hit post. That might lead to a fairer discussion/ debate

[ROMANA]

O ELLHNIKOS POLITISMOS EINAI O ARXAIOTEROS KAI GNWSTOTEROS POLITISMOS PAGKOSMIWS....ERXESTE APO OLA TA KRATH EITE NA TA THAUMASETE EITE GIA ANASKAFES (PALI KALA MAZI ME ELLHNES ALLIWS OSA MPOROUSATE THA TA EIXATE PAREI KAI AYTA STIN XWRA SAS)KAI ANTI NA EYXARISTEITE THN ELLADA KAI TOYS PROGONOYS MOY POY EXETE DOYLEIA KAI ERXESTE STHN PANEMORFH KAI PIO ENDIAFEROYSA XWRA (ME EYRWPAIKA PROGRAMMATA POY ERXESTE FREE KAI MAS POYLATE KAI YFAKI!!!!!).EXETE FIMIOYRGHSEI TOSA INSTITOYTA STIN ELLADA GIA NA MPOREITE NA DIKIAIOLOGHSETE TIN EPIMONH PAROYSIA SAS......TI DOYLEIA EXETE STIN AKROPOLI ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI????TI DOYLEIA EXETE STIN AIGINA ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI???TI DOYLEIA EXETE STON TAFO TOY MEGA ALEKSADROY ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI???? TI DOYLEIA EXETE STON PARTHENONA ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI??? STIN ARXAIA OLYMPIA ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI????EXOYME POLLOYS ELLHNARES ARXAIOLOGOI POY EINAI IKANOTATOI EPAGGELMATIES, ALLA TO SHMANTIKOTERO "ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ" POY MPOROYN, THELOYN KAI PANW APO OLA SEBONTAI THN ISTORIA TOYS KAI TON POLITISMO TOYS.ΕΙΜΑΣΤΕ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΣΕΒΟΜΑΣΤΕ ΤΗΝ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ ΜΑΣ!!!POLEMISAME GIA TIN PATRIDA MAS KAI TIN ISTORIA MAS!!!EIMASTE YPERIFANOI POY EIMASTE ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ KAI DEN THA EPITREPSOYME SE KANENAN NA MAS PAREI OYTE ENA BOTSALO APO OPOIADIPOTE PARALIA.....POSO MALISTA NA MAS PAREI THN ISTORIA MAS!!!!!!!!!

[Neo]

Since Prof. Beard is so keen to preserve the Greek antiquities, I suggest she carries out that task personally. Ideally she should place herself in front of them, I am sure neither burglers nor fire would want to approach

[Sophia]

I am shocked and astonished by the comments made by my fellow Greeks. Most of them demonstrate arrogance, ignorance, rudeness, pressumption, extreme and blind nationalism. Britain does not need to steal anyone's history, as many of you suggest, it has its own history and has made great contributions in science, engineering, the arts and many other areas.

The Parthenon marbles stand for an extraordinary period in Greek history and influenced the way in which civilization developed in the western world. Like every other Greek I would like to see them back in Greece less because they are 'owned' by Greece, and more because they should be best seen in the context they came from. But has anyone thought what we should do if we had a British monument left in our land independentely of the way in which it happened to be there? Would we had to send it back to Britain? Do we have to turn all the Ottoman mosques back to Turkey?

Has anyone thought what a museum is?A museum houses objects which are taken out of their context. Decontextualization is a problem in itself, and applies to all objects found in a museum. However, the museum phenomenon has larger benefits in terms of building knowledge, scholarship, educating the society as a whole and fostering cross cultural links. Do all museums in the world have to send all the Greek monuments or vases back to Greece? I am not advocating for the one or the other position. I am simply suggesting that there is no easy answer to these issues.

It is time to understand that we are responsible for the antiquities we hold in our land which connect with every other country's history in the western world and not just with ours. As to how proud we Greeks feel about our past, perhaps it is time to concentrate in those things we can be proud of about our present.

Certainly we cannot be proud of the way in which everyone expects the state to be the only agent that takes care of disasters instead of engaging in a collective program of caring and cherishing our environment and heritage, before disasters hit. The Greek people showed fantastic strength in fighting the fires themselves, but we should have a co-ordinated program of prevention.

We cannot be proud of objective opinions and civilized behaviour either, as these comments show (many of which have been astonishingly petty and offensive). And as a matter of fact, since everyone is so confident about knowing ancient Greek history, it was the Europeans who taught us our 'glorious' history after the first establishement of the Greek state. The poverty and deprivation during the previous centuries meant almost no inhabitant of Greece knew anything about it. We should acknowledge these facts and learn from nations that have something to teach us, in the same way in which these nations assimilated the lessons they learnt from us. Our ancestors, who many of you quote in this blog, would be appauled by these ugly and uncivilized responses to someone who has devoted her scholarship to their accomplishments.

Whether British people behave well on holidays is a totally different issue. Also, it is unfortunate that Britain did not help Greece, but the professor's article has nothing to do with this. Let's rise above narrow mindness, national sentimentalism, national barriers, who likes us and who does not. Let's speak less about what happened 2000 years ago in our land and more about what happens now and what we need to do in the future.

[anthony alcock]

BA: no, I was giving lectures on a cruise ship that stopped in Athens for two days.

[Strathclyder]

Dear Costa,

I've live in Scotland for a long time,in Glasgow and in Edinburgh, and I can assure you that this phenomenon of throwing up and passing water all over the place is taking place every single Friday and Saturday. I've seen girls 15 years of age, to be so drunk that would sleep all night until 9.00 am in the center of Edinburgh, literally on the road. It is therefore no disrespect of our Knossos i.e. but rather a disrespect to themselves. They literally humiliate themselves. In Britain this is called the nation's disgrace. So don't be offended if you see a British Girl throw up in Rhodes. As for Oral Sex Contests, well I think that next year I must go to Rhodes for holidays, that would be fun... :P (sic)

Kind Regards,

S.P

[Kostas A.]

How can you say things like that when the Brits dont have any respect for other cultures and civilisations.
Do i have to remind you that your loving home town people pee and throw up on our streets?Go to the Palace of Knossos in Crete and take pictures with their pants down laughing?That have oral sex contests in hotels in Corfu, Zakinthos,Rhodes and Crete (thanks to your club 18-30)?Did you see how was Athens after the Champions League final on May full of beer cans,drunk people harrasing girls fighting in broad day light.
You dont have any right to say that we should have the replicas when we in Greece see your civilisation EVERY summer.
Kostas A.

[Kostas Archontakis]

Dear mr.Mary Beard,i visited,last November,London and i went to the British Museum.I can't express to you my grief when i saw the Parthenon Marbles and a whole temple from Lydia in your museum.Yes your museum is beautiful (and also brings to London lots of money from tourists)but when someone buys stolen goods doesnt this makes him a thief?(and i believe that you recollect how Lord Elgin chopped the marbles with saws to sell them to you) Or in order to give you another example,we feel like a mother that has her child taken to foster parents.Wouldnt this mother do anything possible to get back her child that loves so much?I know that you dont have children (i.e civilisation) but its better for an originator to have the authentic things and you the replicas.What if we had two original Stonehedge menir and you had replicas?Or if in the port of N.Y had the Cutty Sark boat and you had a replica.Wouldnt you try to get the original back?
I believe that deep down you know I m right.
Sincerely
Kostas Archontakis

[Spyros Iakovidis]

Dear Caterpillar, I wish more of the responses to this article were as objective as your view. I have to apologise to both readers as well as the author for some of the comments made by my compatriots, but please note, as I have already pointed out in my earlier comment, that this is a very sensitive issue for us Greeks. I still cannot agree with the author's view, but in a democracy (first thought of and applied by Greeks) anyone is entitled to their view, as many of my fellow Greeks seem to have forgotten. In any case, if you are still interested in helping those affected by the fire, the Bank of Greece has opened an account to this end:
SWIFT: BNGRGRAA,
IBAN: GR9801000230000002341103053.

[caterpillar]

I have travelled around much of the Peloponnese, and have visited many of the "out of the way" sites that this rich and beautiful country has to offer. When I heard that Ancient Olympia was threatened, I scoured news sites, not so much for news of Olympia, but for all those lesser sites that have given me so much pleasure and inspiration. So far, to little avail - i just hope they are safe. (I have also looked without success to see whether there is some way to donate to help the Greek people dispossessed or to help the restoration efforts, again to no avail.)

I understand, though cannot condone, the rabid nationalism and misguided patriotism that has driven many of the more rabid comments here. But as Ancient Greece is a major wellspring for our European society, then one can argue we are all its descendants and so all have a "stake" in it as heritage. A Spaniard has as much right to "feel" a deep connection to the Acropolis as a Bulgarian as an Italian as a Greek as a... well, you get the point.

Being critical of nations' ability/inability, desire/lack of desire to maintain, respect and otherwise steward remains - whether ancient, neolithic, art deco or napoleonic - is also counterproductive. Mussolini drove a road through the heart of Rome's Forum, many of the smaller Roman and Greek sites across Europe seem depressingly neglected and unloved by all but the hardiest students and scholars, Britain is unable to protect its own heritage (see the abuse of the Cerne giant http://www.bbc.co.uk/dorset/content/image_galleries/cerne_giant_vandalism_gallery.shtml).

None of us is perfect, all of us (and sadly I suspect we are a minority) are united by our desire to preserve, study, understand and - crucially - to "spread the word" about our collective heritage. It would be far more productive to start there than to engage in petty remonstrations based on knee-jerk reactions.

[ΑΝΔΡΙΑΝΑ]

UA EPREPE NA NTREPESTE GIA AYTA POY GRAFETE. APODEIJTE OTI DEN YPARXOYN OFELH THS XVRAS SAS GIA TA ARXAIA MAS. POLLES FORES EXOYN KATASTRAFEI ARXAIA KAI BIZANTINA MNHMEIA STH XVRA MAS KAI TA EXOYME FRONTISEI GI AYTO ERXESTE KAI TA BLEPETE. KALO UA HTAN NA EPISTRECETE KAI AYTA POY EXETE KLECEI EKMETALEYOMENOI THN KATASTASH THS XVRAS MAS EKEINH THN EPOXH, ALLA DEN MPOREITE NA TO KANETE GIATI TI UA DEIJETE STA MOYSEIA SAS? AIVNOI PERIHGHTES. PANTA UA EPISKIAZEI O POLITISMOS MAS ESAS KAI TOY OMOIOYS SAS. O ALEJANDROS SAS PROBLIMATIZEI AKOMA!!!!!!!

[Adrian Moon]

Some of the people making accusations here might reflect that Greece's record on preserving antiquities which do not fit its national mythology is not unblemished. There is the well known neglect of its Ottoman heritage and at the present time Greece's 'Archaeological Council', if it is fit to be graced with such a name, wants to destroy two important Art Deco buildings just to improve the view of the Parthenon from the restaurant on top of the Acropolis Museum . I may be biased because I spend a lot of time in India but I get the impression that, despite spasms like the Babri Masjid, it treats it's non-Hindu Mughul and British heritage with more respect than Greece does its eqivelants.

[maria likaki]

o leonidas eipe STOUS PERSES:

MONON LABE.

KAI EMEIS SAN APOGONOI TOU LEME:

MONON LABE.

MONO ETSEI THA KATALABETE ti tha pei ellinikon pneuma.

alla tha subliroso kiolas oti otan kratoi den exoun istoria prospathoun na klepsoun tin istoria ton allon gia na fanoun spoudaoi.

[BA]

"It reminds me a bit of the time when I was nearly beaten up by a waiter in a cafe in Athens at the time of the Falklands War for being British."

Hi Antony,
Were you drunk out of your mind at the time and were you exposing yourself as many Brits visiting Greece do?????

[stella]

pws tolmaei ayti i anistoriti vretani na ekthetei aytes tis epikindines apopseis;;den ntrepontai gia ton viasmo twn glyptwn tou parthenwna;;mas zitane epiplewn k alles arxaiotites;;;k malista se mia toso dramatiki stigmi gia tin patrida mas;;oi ellines den paradinontai apolitiste vretanike lae.

WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT OUR HERITAGE?

[anthony alcock]

What an amazing response to relatively harmless and intelligent comments. It reminds me a bit of the time when I was nearly beaten up by a waiter in a cafe in Athens at the time of the Falklands War for being British.

[Thanasis Tsiamas]

Dear author,

I cannot help but to be reminded of the following ancient saying (perhaps you have heard it):

ΔΡΥΟΣ ΠΕΣΟΥΣΗΣ ΠΑΣ ΑΝΗΡ (in your case, ΓΥΝΗ) ΞΥΛΕΥΕΤΑΙ

'When the oak tree falls, every man/woman tries to get for himself/herself some wood'

This phrase is commnly used when people try to take advantage of another person's misfortune

It is always sad to see the laws of the jungle still aplying in human societies....

With respect...

[Aristoklhs]

I have a brighter idea. Lets send some parts to the Moon, Mars, Pluto or load them in some space-shuttles and send them somewhere out there.The aliens will know what to do.
So if a big meteorit crashes on earth, or the sea level will arise because of the global warming or a similar catastrophe occurs, they can be admired by other intelligent beings.

[Cleo]

I find many of the responses here absolutely extraordinary. I'm all for passion -- but not when it is blind, and divisive. Since when did one have to be Greek to share in the wonder of Olympia and express anxiety at its possible damage? As someone who works on this material, MB has more right than many of us to worry about the cruelty of these fires, the lack of information, and the tendency all of us have to privilege certain sites over others, no matter how wonderful these might be (none of which is a criticism of those who are currently doing their damnedest in an impossible and upsetting situation). It is at times like these that we might see a silver lining to the cloud that is Elgin and a ray of sunshine over otherwise dusty cast collections -- all of which (whatever we think about their original motivation today) have done a vast amount to celebrate and perpetuate the greatness of Greek artistic production.

[DIAS ( ZEUS )]

Dear Mary...
First of all to make such ill comments/sugestions at the time of national crisis in Greece.. it just shows the type of person that you are..Unless of course it's the English ( british )way.you guys are well known for that. since you are such an educated elit person then i'm sure you know how you became the U.K. ask yourself why was MARY QUEEN OF SCOTLAND KILLED? Do you think lord Elgin should have had the same fate ? i could really go on but i won't i'll leave you with this.. examine your own shortcomings before sugesting anything to anyone let alone tell GREEKS how to protect their heritige .. Unless the English still beileve their motto " devide and conquer" after all that's what you did in the Balkans during the 2nd W.W. .............

[Strathclyder]

It is also very interesting to point out how easy it is to misinterpret ideas when they are presented via e-mails,blogs and the internet in general. I'm not surprised by the thoughtless reaction by many Greeks, as we have learned to be oversensitive about our heritage.Nevertheless it is always good to have an open mind and realize that the Professor has been studying our Culture in her entire life, and loves every aspect of it, as we do.This not propaganda on her own behalf. She simply observes that
there are some advantages of the current situation of the marbles i.e. being split up. She does not suggest to demolish the Greek Museums and scatter all their ancient fortune to other places. In view of the current legal obstacles that prevent i.e. Elgin Marbles from being brought to their country of origin, there are nonetheless some advantages in this status-quo of their being split up. (που σημαίνει, αρχαία όντας διαχωρισμένα, και οχι ΝΑ διαχωριστούν όπως υπαινίχθηκε ο μαλλον αδιάβαστος δημοσιογραφίσκος του Εθνους). In any case it appears that many people will still answer as if they have no read Dr Beard's article. This is only a sign of how biased we are with the Brits. That's no wonder, on the other hand, bearing in mind how a Scotsman in the 19th Century, came to Athens, and practically destroyed the Parthenon.

[happy student]

These comments are (almost) all mad. Someone said they felt sorry for Prof. Beard's students. No need to worry, it's great being taught by her...I promise you!!

[george]

fuck!! of!!!!

[marianikolopouloi]

leave greeke people to protect their monuments and their history they are clever people enough.Britain if it like really to help greece it would send army and elicopters like it do to iraq war.Leave greece alone

[marianikolopouloi]

IF YOU WANT TO REALY HELP GREECE AT THIS DIFFICULT MOMENTS YOU CAN SEND AEROPLANS AND ELICOPTERS AND ARMY LIKE YOU SEND TO IRAQ.BUT BRITAIN IT DIDNT HELP GREECE.WHY?IS ANY REASON?LEAVE GREEKE PEOPLE TO PROTECT THEIR MONUMENTS AND THEIR HISTORY THEY ARE CLEVER MORE THAN OTHER PEOPLE ALL OVER WORD!!!!!!!!!!GREECE BELONKS TO GREEKS AND NOBODY ELSE.

[Maria]

First I would like to say how I pity Mary Beard, the Professor of Cambridge (something is seriously wrong there!) and all like-minded people.

Not only has UK offered NO ASSISTANCE, but also criticises the Greek government. The fires going on in Greece is a national tragedy and no country could ever be well prepared. How well prepared was UK for the floods??? It is all very well looking from a distance and making accusations, isn’t it?

Secondly, I thought that her article was very insincere as she first ‘apologises’ for writing about the Hellenic marbles when Greece is suffering! I do not expect a non-Greek to understand how proud we are about introducing civilisation and of our entire heritage. At least throughout history we have always fought and argued for what is ours and not try and build our civilisation and culture by stealing and copying others like you tend to!
From this viewpoint I understand why:
1) UK refused to give back Greece’s national treasure and
2) Mary finds the chance to say in her own way that they should not be returned.

Writing such article at a difficult time for Greece only goes to show what kind of people you are…insensitive, self-interested and completely unkind! Also for Strathclyder: We can read and interpret very well what Mary wrote in her article as well as sense your bitterness from your comments.

PS: Mary your next article should perhaps be on how the British Museum should be renamed to something more appropriate…like ‘International Stolen Treasures Museum’.

[Vassilis Tsantilas]

Peter Harris wrote (29 Aug 2007 22:46:34):

"...Surely a religious cult site that none believes in anymore is no more in the soul of a Greek..."

Are you sure my friend? Check this url http://www.ysee.gr

From YSEE's first press release (17 July 1997):

"For years, we the Ethnikoi Hellenes, i.e. contemporary Greeks who STILL respect and honour the rites and beliefs of our ancestors, the Hellenes, remained stoically patient when faced with the systematic (and not at all coincidental), negligence and degradation of our monumental and living ethnic heritage by a "Greek" State, which is obviously enslaved by an economico-religious giant whose cultural and logical interests promote the open scorn for our real (i.e. pre-Christian) ethnic Tradition.
Lately however, probably as a counter-effect of a few small attempts to have our word made public and spread inside modern Greek society, we realised we could not afford the luxury to remain silent in front of this open but "quiet" war against real (pre-Christian) Hellenism.
This was due to the fact that our adversary seems, for the first time since the Middle Ages, to resort to intolerant and aggressive acts, which cannot be openly committed in a supposedly democratic society..."

[Anna]

Mary Beard has made a valid and sensible point about the protection of antiquities of whatever provenance. It is not just Mother Nature who 'messes up'. Many valuable artifacts are found in volatile and remote areas of the world, eg, the Buddha statues at Bamiyan now sadly gone forever due to the Taliban. What about the cultural heritage of Iraq that has been destroyed or looted? These issues will be always be contentious so long as there is conflict in the world. This surely is an argument for greater international cooperation to recognise that history 'belongs' to all of us as members of the wider human race and transcends purely national interests.

[Labrini]

PEOPLE DO NOT PANIC! LET US ALL THINK TOGETHER!
We all want ancient heritage to be safe! Let us see how. Is splitting it and scattering it a solution? As one person already pointed-out it not so easy to “give away” ancient stuff. To whom what? A whole Byzantine Church to London? 3000 statues to Paris? 1 million pots to Berlin? A couple of ancient temples to Madrid?
Who would pay? How much? Smugglers would rub their hands! Who would realize such a momentous project? Replicas could be a very good idea. Do not forget that many Greek and Egyptian art pieces are known to us through roman copies! You have to think of the volumes though. It is impossible to copy and save all! I went to Cairo and the Director of the already full beyond-belief museum told me that there was so much stuff in the basement to fill another 3 museums! Believe me this cannot happen even if we wanted to!
The only alternative is for people like Mrs Mary Beard to prove they care. Through her connections, she can organize some kind of “squad” or movement for the protection of antiquity in its natural habitat. They can put pressure to governments internationally in order to assure that proper protection and prevention measures are being in place and check that they are being maintained. They can form a group of trained volunteers to come and help when catastrophes occur all around the globe because “stuff happens” everywhere.
When I was in Egypt I wanted to see Queen Nefertari or Nefertiti and I was told it was in Berlin!!!!!!!! It was an awkward feeling… I went to Berlin and saw it. Odd.. Splendid but alone, without its kingdom, without its soul.. looking like a refugee!! You know after all, it really is not only about the stones and ruins. The people who made them at the time did not hesitate to ruin them by making wars themselves anyway… It is about getting the atmosphere… Ancient Thebes belongs to the Sahara and the Nile not the Louvre, Saint Sophia belongs to Constantinople, The Parthenon to Athens, the Colosseum to Rome, Japanese Pagodas belong to their beautiful natural scenery. Otherwise we can visit “Little World” in Disneyland or Las Vegas and pretend we’ve been everywhere!!!
Let us learn from other’s stupidity let’s apologize to the world for not being well prepared for whatever was that we could prevent. Let the world understand that it is not always easy to face nature in a countryside full of antiquity. Let us use solidarity and all these good minds to work together with sensibility and respect to find a viable, realistic, historical and above all local solution for all things ancient and valuable for us and for generations to come. Think also that our things will be of great value some centuries from now, so let us protect not only antiquity but also the present achievements.
And do not forget nature!! Animals and plants they are also very valuable! Many species might be extinct due to disasters. They are also our history but more importantly they are our future survival!! Let us be productive not destructive!

Peace to you all!

Labrini.

[John M]

...and let's send some of the Crown Jewels to New York, in case the Tower of London catches fire. :)

[Georgios, Barcelona SPAIN]

Fortunately we live in democracies in which all of us can express our point of views freely.
What I find shocking is the fact that the views of the author "coincide" with such a tragic moment for Greece and indeed for the rest of the Western World, due to our close cultural ties with Greek ideals and civilization!
It is so easy to criticize a country and its people (even indirectly) in such a difficult moment.
Instead I would have expected a bigger intellectual effort from the author of the article, transmitting perhaps an entirely different message of compassion and support to the Greeks. Why not say: "Let's help Greece and its people (to whom we owe so much) to reconstruct all that is lost, let's return the heritage that we stole from that country and help with the necessary infrastructure to keep all monuments safe and ultimately protect the civilization that made us Europeans in their place of birth!".
This would have been an adequate form of expressing true solidarity and respect for the country and culture considered to be the origin of our civilization.
Unfortunately the author has chosen the easy way. i.e., to attack and try to "plunder" again the country's history.
I'm shocked by your ideas, but I'm mostly surprised by your lack of respect in view of the hard times through which Greece is going. By the way, I have a question to the author: Since you hold such a dear interest for Greece and its heritage, in what ways are you going to contribute in helping the country restore all that was lost? Or are your perhaps contemplating the possibility of following your country’s example by doing absolutely nothing to assist?
Let's just hope that in 2012, when your country will host the Olympics, the utter expression of our Greek humanistic culture and ideals, your authorities will be able to ensure the safety of all your monuments and museums. Because it would be a shame to have to send away, say, the jewels of the British Crown in museums all over the world in order to better protect them, right?

DEAR MARY ANTIQUITIES ARE SAFE ONLY IN GREECE

[Costas]

Dear Mary,

there are quite a few points in your article making me wonder about its objectivity and its intentions. First of all, there is a lack of explicit reference on the matter of who is the rightful owner of the antiquities. To my mind, an antiquity belongs to the place it was initially located, and the people of this country should be responsible for taking care of it, therefore the antiquities and monuments of Greece belong to the Greek people. More regrettably, the article uses the sentence "and a lot of them, let’s remember, are of Roman imperial date and not from the fifth-century BC well-springs of democracy at all" to imply that many of these antiquities are not Greek heritage. This is a clear perversion of the truth. There are a lot of museums around the world hosting exhibits found locally but belonging to eras that the land was under occupation, or to eras that different civilizations flourished in the same land, and no question was ever raised on the proprietorship of these items. Note for instance the The Graeco-Roman Museum in Alexandria, and the fact that multiple museums in Italy (Gabii, Barracco Museum, Capitoline Museums) host antiquities found in Italy and having originated from Greek colonies in Italy. And taking the analogy even further, does your implication mean that that buildings erected in Paris during 1940-1944 (German occupation) are not actually property of France?

The second issue is your assumption "Suppose Olympia and its museum had actually gone up in smoke". But then again, suppose that the British Museum, Louvre -or any other hosting facility- had gone up in smoke due to a fire, or collapsed because of an earthquake. Would the damage be less painful? Again, choosing this specific example seems to be in the line of directing the reader towards the view that Greece cannot guarantee the well-being of its antiquities, so they would be better off elsewhere. And simply making a generic statement "and almost all guardians of the Greek heritage -- Greek or foreign -- have something to be embarrassed about" is not enough to alleviate this feeling.

I see however some light in the ending paragraph of your article "There’s also an argument here for the old-fashioned plaster cast gallery". Yes, replicas of valuable masterpieces should be made, not only for preservation purposes but to enable people from all over the world to admire these artifacts. Greece has never been reluctant in sharing with the world, so my best guess is that the Greek ministry of civilization would give permissions to make copies of antiquities for public display or study in museums abroad. But there is always one original of everything, and this should be given to the rightful owners.

[Δημητρα]

I am so deeply sorry that there are still people who take advantage of national tragedies to make out their-obviously political-points.
I feel obliged to tell you that YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES for not respecting not only the fact that 74 people have died the past few days, but also for not respecting the one and only historical truth, which is that Hellenic (Greek,for those who are not aware of the term) people were the ones who created their own civilization and it belongs to them and them only.It is as simple as that and honestly I don't understand why you won't get it at last.
In God's name, show some respect and stop it.
P.S.:Why don't you mind your own problems for a change? I have many friends living over there and they assure me that there are many...

[melina]

I have no words to express my dissapointment about your comments!But what i want to tell you is another story! One year before the September 11, a cousin of mine, who borned and live in NY told me: i feel super safe that im living in NY because NOBODY can harm me NEVER!
I thought then that he was very arrogant and one year after, unfortunately, i remembered again his words...

[astrojoggi]

Nice idea!!!
It's time to create authentic coppies for the Museums around
the globe...
and bring back what belongs to us...
Thxs

[CosmaL]

Dear Mary,

Modern greeks politicians - don't give a shit-sorry for the word- for the greek history, momuments, and the same greek people! They only care how to be again on top and earn more money.
Well, for these kind of people and if its better to be protected i agree with you-only for the bad politicians.
I believe new people are most capable and interest to protect the ancients.
People in the ages 15 to 35-40 like their country (as in any other countries too) and can do anything to help it.
Unfortunately, some countries-UK included- think that they can "protect" ancient marbles and etc better than the same countries.
Its a good reason to earn much more money and underexpose the other civilizations.
Well, you're not better than us, in fact you "step on" other countries civilizations.
I clear up, that i agree with you only because you love the ancients and that these people aren't capable to to anything right. They burn so many people and fortunes. But, you cannot say that you'll protect the ancients better than we do. So many years they were protected! And who's saying that you won't have the same problems? It'll be in a museum with all the thiefs looking for a chance to steal or the personell to clean it with chemicals(With chemicals??????? are you serious??? it's worst than fire).
But if they were in their natural environment? Nobody stolen parthenon so many years...except this one who brought them to your country...elgin was his name, remember?

[Smiley Goldwire]

Well actually, Paris seems to be a safe city.I don't know about England, becasues floods may happen as we have all seen this summer...The moon would also be great, but there's a slight problem with the meteorites.....What kind kind of logic is that?
By the way, apologising on account for the timing of the artical (my god....there are steel funerals taking place over there) isn't a sign of humanity.On the contrary it shows that you have surpassed every possible ethical doubts you have had about this....Congratulations, you give a good example of how a person with classical background should be...

[Strathclyder]

And now that my fellow Compatriots have realized - I hope - that the real morons in this case are in fact themselves who didn't even bother to read carefully a simple English article, it is high time they apologize to Dr Beard, THE CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR, who perhaps knows more Ancient Greek than themselves. And for God's Sake, don't always believe what you read in Newspapers. The Journalist in Ethnos is clearly suffering from Down Syndrome. - Such is his stupidity. He didn't even put his name under his article. I'm wondering how these people get these kind of jobs. It infuriates me!

Regards,

The Strathclyder

[peter harris]

While I do agree that Eileen has a point, I think she is maybe taking what these people says a little too strongly. This is not necessarily what that article in Greek said or the view s of a majority of Greeks. It seems that many of the people posting here (not all may I add) range from the misinformed to the downright loony. As someone pointed out before they have most likely not taken the trouble to read this article.

If some kind of lively debate could be proposed I would be all for it. Prof Beard says that an advantage of dispersal of cultural cache across the globe is that in the case of disaster (whether it is these fires or terrorist attacks in Paris or floods in London is beside the point) not all of them are destroyed. She has not come down in favour of anything. Only a fool would say that there are not arguments of both sides of this debate.

What would be nice is if people would stop hyperbolising about the monuments of Greece being etched on their soul (or someother similar statement). Surely a religious cult site that none believes in anymore is no more in the soul of a Greek than Stonehenge is in the soul of an Englishman/woman.

[Eileen]

It is appalling that the Greek media distorted Professor Beard’s comments, though hardly surprising since the press in every country engages in the same behavior. (See Angelos’s comment:
“You just have to read the short resume of the article on a Greek internet news site to feel anger against the author. The site literally says that the author proposes the dispersal of our antiquities around the world.”

It does occur to me that perhaps the Greek press simply could not read English well enough to understand what Mary actually wrote. I am not criticizing their intelligence, I can only read a few random words in Greek; or maybe the Greek internet site ran Mary’s comment through an auto-translator. The automatic translators will always garble the truth.

Mary, I hope you will re-post your remarks in Greek, so our Greek friends will be able to understand what you actually said.

Maybe we need Esperanto after all!!

Dear Madam,

I'm very sorry for your students and your University.

[Strathclyder]

... και συνεχίζω διότι την παρεξήσατε απο μια και μόνο πρόταση. Την ακόλουθη

"there is a very practical point to these Wonders of the World being split up.

ΔΕΝ ΕΝΝΟΕΙ να διαλύσουμε τα Ελληνικά Μουσεία και να τα στείλουμε απο την Νεα Ζηλανδία ως το Πακισταν. Απλώς κανει μια ΠΑΡΑΤΗΡΗΣΗ στο ΣΤΥΛ here's the bright side!!! Συνέπως αν και τα μάρμαρα ειναι ένα αναγκαίο κακό να βρίσκονται στο Βρεττανικό Μουσείο, αυτό θα μπορούσε να εχει και θετικά σημεία. Και η Κυρια κάνει απλως συζήτηση. Κατι που ποτέ δεν μάθαμε να κάνουμε εμείς στην χώρα μας. Για όλους εκείνους λοιπόν που εσπευσαν να την υβρίσουν βλακωδώς συνιστώ να εκτυπώσουν το κείμενο της και να το γράψουν για τιμωρία δέκα φορές στο τετραδιάκι τους. (deadline 3 Sep. 14.00)

Y.Γ οσο για τον Κρετίνο του Εθνους ο οποίος πληρώνεται για να διαστρεβλώνει την πραγματικότητα λυπάμαι. Τυπικός Δημοσιογραφίσκος.

[Clayton Burns]

If Mary Beard has made errors in her comments on this matter, she should accept reality. It may well be true that there are limitations in the Greek approach, but is Cambridge without sin? When along with Phillip Knightley I noted a good number of curious aspects of Christopher Andrew's "The Mitrokhin Archive I," I tried to communicate with Andrew of Cambridge about the textual corruption in his book. He did not answer.

I object strongly to Cambridge's participation in the international sweatshop English trade. This is no better than language slavery. What is Cambridge doing mixed up in the TOEFL trade? When I went to a major ESL conference in Vancouver, I asked Cambridge reps about who I should write about Cambridge practices in English. They said nobody. There was nobody with the analytical skill to grasp what I was talking about. Cambridge remains fixed in fourth place behind COBUILD, Oxford, and Longman, because of a lack of imagination.

I am not impressed by the Cambridge contribution to improving texts for learners of Greek and Latin. It would be a good idea to examine the corpus revolution in linguistics in terms of grammars, dictionaries, and CDs for English learners and start there. We also need true grammar readers with a much more advanced level of analysis.

TLS is a valuable product. It should not be cheapened by thoughtless comments.

[Strathclyder]

Με έκπληξη μου παρατηρώ το πόσο εύκολα παρεξηγείτε τα λεγόμενα της άνω κυρίας,η οποία προφανώς λέει όσα λέει από αγάπη για τις αρχαιότητες. Παιδιά, ΕΠΙΤΕΛΟΥΣ, μάθετε να διαβάζετε.

[Maria]

Ντροπή και αίσχος. Τι να πρωτοθυμηθούμε. Τον καθαρισμό των μαρμάτων με χημικά ή την ενοικιάση χώρων του Βρεττανικού μουσείου για δεξιώσεις...

[Susannah Assima (UK)]

The Times should issue an apology for allowing this "academic" moron express such inflammatory views at such an inopportune moment.
You should also rename the "British" Museum to INTERNATIONAL Museum. There is very little that is British in that building. It is just full up with artifacts that you have STOLEN from all over the world. Primarily from Greece and Egypt. Shame on you. If you don't know what the word "shame" means, just look it up in the dictionary. (There must be one somewhere in the "British museum).

[Strathclyder]

Before making comments on this Article some people should read it twice. Please!

[Dora]

I would like to be supportive of the professor's ideas but then I would not be Greek. I would also like to claim that the government has not failed its people at this point but then I would have forgotten the people burnt at fire either on duty or just trying to save their home. Yes, the country did not do its best at this point, but then again even since the fire department's strength was doubled due to the help of the other European countries fires are still burning after six days. With strong gales and 170 fires every day across the whole country even the largest fleet of firefighting planes in Europe could not prevent the disaster. Remember the US (the master of the universe and most well-prepared country of the world) after hurricane Katrina, remember the vast fires still burning in Sicily, remember all disasters of a large scale that have happened all over the world over the last few years. Remember 11/9 and the hit at the Twin Towers. Remember the hits in London just a couple of years back. It was only because they did not happen outside the British Museum or the Tower of London that no-one ever suggested to remove the Crown Jewels or other antiquities and scarce them around the globe. If the fire had not gone anywhere near Ancient Olympia no-one would have even cared about what has happened to the other antiquities, and we have so many of them spread around the country. Can you imagine how many people burnt because we did try to save our heritage? Can you imagine how many villages were burnt to the ground destroying their peoples lives because everyone was around the ancient stadium trying to save it? And we did save it! Little was smoked and that can be restored. Your 'preservation' of the Marbles of Parthenon can never be restored. You were the only country that did not send any help yet you criticise everyone of what they did or did not do. It is easy to criticise from the safety of a country that does not have any earthquakes or claims to be so well prepared against any threat...any other than terrorism. Yes, 'stuff does happen' and the government has been caught with their 'pants down' as it was put. However, remember your doings before you criticise someone else and you have not done a few......

[Basil Assimakopoulos]

She should be ashamed for writing such rubbish. Instead she should concentrate on why this country has not offered any assistance towards fighting the fires in Greece. Yesterday morning some government official, interviewed on BBC, stated that the UK has not given Greece assistance because "we were not asked/invited".
Greece has issued a plea for help to the European Union. I assume this country is part of that Union.
While 20 countries are helping Greece with additional equipment and additional personnel, what is our response? A GREAT BIG NOTHING.
"We have not been invited" we say.... I don't remember who invited us when we went to Iraq. No wander the rest of Europe does not like us and is laughing at us. All we are good at is SPIN, yet once again. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

[Nikos]

Between two natural disasters, the first being our patrimony being stolen by "thiefs" -excuse me, I meant "curators" such as the good Dr. Beard- with a stiff upper lip proper manners and lineage, and the second being fire, we Greeks prefer fire.

Sincerely

[Anna, Athens]

Thank you, your points are quite interesting; we will bear these in mind, next time we find out that your cleaners insist on cleaning "OUR" marbles with chemicals after the long night parties you 've been given inside the British Museum. You may have forgotten the "incident", we haven't.
"Remember: we have History, you have story"

[Stelio Valtzis]

Dear Author,

It is true that Britain has managed to collect many ancient monuments of the world, when it was playing the role of the empire.

Unfortunately for you fortunately for the "Collonies", UK is no longer an empire thus has no rights on the heritage of those countries.

Please, instead of asking for more, push your Goverment to return world's heritage where it belongs,not to mention all the money that the British Goverment has collected from museum visitors.

Perhaps you are trying to exploit a disaster for the benefit of the British museums. Perhaps you might only want to suggest ways to protect the monuments... If the second is your motive then criticize the Greek Goverments but stop hoping UK will collect more of the world's cultural heritage.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

[SV]

Dear "Professor",

I find it a waste of my time to answer to inconsistent thoughts like yours. However, I would really appreciate if you could stop talking about "proposals" on how to preserve antiquities and concentrate on your day job.

Next time you need to read and think thoroughly before you express any inconsistent ideas especially with such bad timing like this one.

[Vasilis]

The author is right. I totaly agree with her. We should move most of our antiquities to the following places:
EDGEWARE ROAD, TAVISTOC SQUARE, KINGS CROSS and LIVERPOOL ST. in LONDON. Much safer. I am no academic but after this I think that I can become one too...

[Yulla L.]

Dear Author,

I am truly saddened that individuals like you are also professors. You surely and justifiably may think that you have earned your title through your work and knowledge, but what you have not earned so far and can never earn is the privilege of history, culture, and of a past rich in beauty, wisdom, civilization and art. You as a Brit cannot ever be proud of such a thing. As a professor, you should be able to indicate basic respect to a country that has offered the world a chance in knowledge and progress. I am truly very sorry for you. Your title alone at the specific University should have taught you that words and writing should be used to help and improve situations, inspire and unite, comfort and enlighten people not insult, ridicule and indicate ignorance and lack of respect, especially at a time like this for my country!

[Nicolas]

Great, in the pure tradition of her ancestor, lord elgin I mean!
I suppose as "professor" you'll understand the meaning in Greek:
MOLWN LAVE!
If not, take a laxative it will help you purge other brilliant ideas!

[George Hatjakis]

UP YOURS MY DEAR...

[Parthenon]

They were Greek and they will remain GREEK for ever in GREECE

[Elena Kalia]

It is interesting to read point of view, epecially from a British lady. If the British are more interested in Greek antiquities than the Greeks themselves then why -unlike other European countries - they haven't sent a single person to help to save the country, the people who are now killed or missing and the valuable antiquities? I think they are more busy having their army in Iraq. It's a shame.

English were and still are anti-greek and they don' t lose any oppurtunity to prove this. After the biggest disaster that we have ever in Greece they English wake up and as oppurtunists that they are they wanted to built their propaganda againts the returning of MArbles, on that National Tragedy. People who did nothing and without history always searching to make one , by the remainings of the other. Even if you are a professor, it is clearly that you are serving oppurtinistic the disortion.

[Maria Pouli]

we should also consider to evacuate the British Museum from the Greek and Egyptian antiquities given that the UK is constantly under terrorists’ threat; we all know about the number of incidents and victims the last couple of years. About the empty building… well, we’ll think of something.

[Alex]

"(and fire quickly turns marble to a little pile of lime)."

Marble doesn't burn.

About everything else:

No.

[Spyros Iakovidis]

LEt me begin with the realisation that, as a classics professor in Cambridge, you surely know more about the ancient world than I do.
As you must have seen from previous readers' comments, this issue is very sensitive in our country, especially when the UK is involved in any way, due do the Parthenon marbles being held at the British Museum. I am pleased to see you admit that all guardians of Greek heritage have something to be embarrassed about, as is indeed the case. The fact of the matter is, that us modern Greeks cling on to our ancestors' history (with good reason, as the latter is the cradle of today's civilisation), and thus views such as the one expressed in your article are considered little short of treatchery. I can not agree with such a view, as is however the case with the one expressed by yourself. Of course the creation of replicas, as well as documentation of all ancient sites and artefacts is of paramount importance, in order that all scholars may have access to them even if physically they cannot do so, however I believe that their grandour can only shine in their natural habitat. What would the Parthenon be were it in a museum? What would Rome like without the Colosseum or Cairo without the Pyramids?
It is a universal truth that 'stuff, as you eloquently put it, happens'. Still, it is better in my view if stuff happens in the original site rather than somewhere else. It is our duty to preserve all such sites for future generations. This however involves not only their physical presence, but their meaning world over, as well as their appeal, which was created in large because of their location.

[Chris Con]

Many thanks for your concern about our civilization and history but I dont think foreign nations (especially Britain and USA which are constantly under terrorist threats) are able to look after our monuments simply because they luck the love and care about them and at the end of the day they dont have any sort of connection with them. For you they might be a nice piece of art to look at, for us is our identity, part of our soul. We would sacrificed our lives to save them. Would you? Nevertheless an interesting idea for academic discussions but totally unrealistic.

[Nikos]

Find your history dear Mary. When we were bulding Acropolis, you were still in the caves.

[Irene]

I think those are excellent points, Mary. Many artifacts, large or small, in museums around the world most likely would have been lost otherwise through natural disasters or political upheavals. If one weighs that against national pride . . .

[Atha]

Only a citizen of a nation with no ancient history would have thought about that. Greeks are proud of their history and they are not giving up their inheritage, no matter what some would like to show in order to profit from the recent disaster

[Jorgo]

Bevor you British peacemaker blaming other countries about her owns you better should give peace in front of your garden with Ireland and give the Parthenon marbles back in Greek.

[andreas]

Unfortunately i have to agree with you in some things and i want to say my opinion for this only. That's what happens when Greece is acting with politic thinking, letting politics without any care about the greek culture, control our culture and our history. The disaster that just happened in ancient Olympia is unfortunately and example of the minister's of culture inability. A person that has the management of our history and our culture didnt know what happened there and he didnt know what to do. He gave false information to the media and to the people, how can we expect for him to protect the ancient Olympia?

[Aggeliki]

I wonder with what other idea you will come in the future trying to steal our ancient culture and inheritage.But you are professionals in that since the British Museum is full of our ancient things.Shame on you!!!OPPORTUNIST...

[Constantine Haas]

I am not sure how academia works these days, but I can still recognize a "formal fallacy" when I see one.
The argumentative deductions in the above article are as illogical. Furthermore the ratio veritatis does not produce the ratio credentis. In plain English... this a biased article and the argument's conclusion has been constructed in advance, its justification followed. I do hope that the reasons for that would be of a personal nature and not because of politics.
In any case although the Professor is not a teaching Archeology, Law or Ethics it is still surprising to see scholars from Cambridge put forward arguments as naive as the one above.

[Bonobong]

Dear all,

I ve read a lot of opinions on this interesting article. Most of them are not objective at all and just reflect each commentator's personal view of the world. I think blogs have a great power to distort reality.

Also, greek media have the power to do this. And they do so because it seems a lot of uneducated people work at them. Or, they are very clever and just want to keep the rest of us 'stupid'.

I am pretty sure that a lot of the greek commentators on the article above did not even read it. You just have to read the short resume of the article on a greek internet news site to feel anger against the author. The site literally says that the author proposes the dispersal of our antiquities around the world.

I am one of the people who believe that anyone as interested in the Parthenon marbles, or any other wonder of the ancient world, as I would like to believe most greeks are, are in perfect position to protect them. In consequence, I believe that we would be perfectly suited to protect any hellenic antiquites dispersed aroung the world. Greece is a perfectly safe country with still much more individual freedom than in places like the UK or the US where governments use 'terrorism' to take away individual freedom.

People around the world and in greece do not understand the magnitude of the disaster that has befallen us. It has nothing to do with how well prepared one is. We seem to have a lot of crazy people in our country setting fires and doing things that show that we have no respect for our environment or our fellow citizens.

So it seems that merely the quantity of information, which has multiplied a million times with the advent of the internet, has nothing to do with its quality.

At least I read the article and understood the author's rationale. People should focus on what is real and what is trully under discussion and not just throw rubbish out of their mouths to satisfy 'other' interests.

To be honest, the article had very very bad timing. One can't be rational under such circumstances.

Yours,

Angelos

[kb]

What about scattering the British crow jewels around the world in case something happens in the Tower of London?

[GB]

The real bombing in Parthenon is not in 1687 because of Morosini bombes,

http://cosmosair2.blogspot.com/2007/07/1687-2007.html

but in 1816 when Elgin taking advantage of the political situation, he also managed to remove for safety, not for still, the famous Parthenon sculptures in the British Museum, London.
Since today we are not capable to admire the antiquities. Probably I preferred take the Greeks like me, make a definitely diasporas, like Vespasianos when take the treasure and remove Hebrews all over the world, after the destroyed of Solomon church in 67 a.D. Because the civilisation is not produced in the place where the men makes the statues, not produced of the power and his violence, but produce everywhere with the knowledge and not in the museum elsewhere.

[Thanais Fourlis]

I am really suprised that people show so much interest about our antiquities. You just seem to forget certain details like that the ones that are in the British museum are stolen, that in order for the English archeologists to clean them and make them white again they destroyed it, that London is a number one target for terrorists attacks and the target could easily be a museum, and of course that one of the countries that was not bothered in sending help with the fires was England. I am sorry but i think that our history is ours to protect and other countries should not be jealous about it. How would you feel if some parts of your history were being exploited by another country?

[penelope]

Along with milions of people I was worried to death following the news coming from Greece in regards to the fire in Olympia; I do agree that Greek or foreign -will have something to be embarrassed about if ever something happens and weloose these marvels. But to say that the antiquities should be dispersed in other countries in order to be protected, I think is at the vey least outrageous and offending to Greek people; We should aways remember that stuff happens everywhere,(and has happened in noumerous places), without any warning most of the time. Therefore, they should stay in their original place and in their original environment. I believe that adds to their value in the sense that seing them in their original environment your mind travels back in time and you really feel the history in making.

[Stratos Koutouzos]

Dear author,

I partly agree with you. However, i need to make few comments. First of all Greece is full of antiquities. The most important ones are protected at museums in Athens, Thessaloniki, Crete and in other smaller cities and there is not a descent person in this world which will say the opposite. There are a great number of ruins of ancient temples in our countryside and unfortunately it was not possible to be protected from such a big fire like the one that we all faced in Peloponnesus. Greece had a disaster and this is a lesson to us. However, I disagree when you say that is good that you have parts of our history and culture in the British museum in London or Louvre. Please create museums with monuments from your ancient civilisation, use replicas if you need to have monuments from other civilisations, and return the marbles of Parthenon, and Niki of Samothaki to Greece. It belongs to Greek people is part of our soul, part of our heritage, and the best place to be is at the New National Museum of Athens which has been build at Acropolis.

Furthermore, please try to protect the Marbles of Parthenon, for as long as, are exhibited in the British museum in London by not using toxic liquids when you try to restore them (as you did few years ago). Fires, earthquakes, and floods can be a big disaster for Greeks and our civilisation, but stupidity can be even bigger disaster.

Kind Regards,

Stratos Koutouzos Athens - Hellas

[Dimitris]

My ancestors even as close as my great grand father gave their lives fighting >I feel asame for not being able to clame the same

[Vasilisa]

An excellent idea! But why force it only in Greece? We should "destroy" Colosseum and take its parts to USA, and of course UK which are peaceful and they have no threats (like terrorism!) of course, they protect their people and towns from natures disasters (remember Katrina).... But don't forget to protect also the Stonehegde, which is the only monument that you have to show from your ancient civilazation.... Seperate the stones and scatter them around the world.... that should do the work! Good thinking!!!!!!!!!!

[Christos]

why don't we give you the acropolis and the parthenon as well?

[dimitris kipouros]

professor,
it is shame to proceed with such speculations.
this is not a argument to keep marbles of parthenon in london.
marbles will return home.
d.kipouros
athens

[moraitidou sophia]

I read the article and I think that the British once again try to find reasons to keep what is not theirs.However it did not come as a surpsise to me since they try to become experts on other people's history and antiquities since theirs is small and of small importance.We are more than capable of taking care of what is ours.People fought hard to save the place and the article is an insult to them.

[Andromachi Poula]

I am strongly courious why are you asking of getting the Greek monuments. You have already grabbed many of them without asking to. I am also wondering what might remain in the British Museum if all foreign monuments were given back.
Everything is beautiful in the land it belongs to. In your museums, each monument is nothing more than an illustrated exhibition article.

[Penelope]

If you want to take dinner in the British Museum on our history you can do that on what you have stolen.
Your "experts" can also destroy status trying to "repair" them.
If you are jealous of our history you can just tell us.

[Iliana]

I m wondering what other reason you will find in order to take and the rest of our ancient culture and inheritage. But of course..a country without such inheritage is trying to steal from the others in order to attract tourists only, to your large museums!!!Shame on all of you who dare to make this kind of statements for the greek people now that our country has been in this crisis.
I m not proud for what happened..of course not..And a last thing..If I had to give away these materials to be placed in a museum in another country for their own safety I would never never choose yours. I would prefer to give them to France..to people who respects the origin country and deserves to be respected for this.
I m really sad that for one more time my opinion has been reinforced by this article.

[Nikos Franghias]

Greeks say no more. Break the Parthenon in pieces and disperse them in the World Museums. No worry, it didn't made it even in the "New Seven Wonders of the World!" Even better, give all Parthenon NOW to the British Museum (and make Mary Beard find her balance :)

Ο ΣΥΓΓΡΑΦΕΑΣ ΘΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΛΟΓΟΚΡΙΣΙΑ ΤΟΥ ΣΧΟΛΙΟΥ ΜΟΥ ?

ΜΗΝ ΣΧΟΛΙΑΖΕΤΕ ΧΩΡΙΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΜΟ , ΘΕΜΑΤΑ ΠΟΥ ΑΦΟΡΟΥΝ ΤΟΥΣ ΔΑΣΚΑΛΟΥΣ ΣΑΣ .!

[Teacher Dude]

Don't believe the government's crude attempts at damage control. Only the main museum in Olympia survived intact. Most of the surrounding area, including many buildings housing ancient monuments and even the IOC facilities have been burnt to the ground.

http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=826828

[Tony Francis]

Paleontologists have been displaying replica skeletons for some time. The largest T-rex, named "Sue" was involved in litigation for five years. It was unclear who the owner was, or if it was found on an Indian Reservation. A federal court finally decided it belonged to a rancher who had land next to the reservation. (He was a Native American.) He sold Sue at auction by Sotheby's for $8.4 million in 1997. But it turns out that the Sue on display at Field Museum in Chicago (who bought Sue) is a replica.
http://www.paleoclones.com/about/about.htm
There is at least one other replica Sue travelling to various museums:
http://www.dbs.nus.edu.sg/dinosaurs/sue.htm
Apparently Sue was 28 years old when she died from a bite to the face from another T-rex. Replicas are available from Portugal:
http://dinocasts.com/prod_catalog.asp
Several rare skeletons were lost during the bombing of Berlin and other cities in WW II. Most museums and universities have more bones than can be displayed. Wichita State has a wonderful skull from a sabertooth tiger in pristine condition. They had several vertebra displayed which were labeled: "Apatosaurus" which used to be what we called "Brontosaurus". I asked a geology professor how they knew it was an apatosaurus? She said because of other bones at the site. The next week, the display had been removed! I knew a lawyer who bought a full sized Stegosaurus replica for the lobby of his office. It was pretty bizarre. Later, he lost the building in a bankruptcy. I don't know what became of the skeleton. There are dozens of places to buy replicas:
http://store.dinosaurcorporation.com/nattoyshir.html

[sm]

In one of the national museums in Latvia they've got a whole bunch of life-sized replicas, e.g. the stele of Hammurabi.

Impressive!

Why don't other museums do this?

[anthony alcock]

I agree about the usefulness of good copies. My own interests are largely in the written word on various materials (papyrus, parchment, wood, pottery etc.). I have never seen the originals of some of the things I have worked on, and it doesn't really matter. With other things I am glad that I was able to read the originals, but mostly because the photographs taken under excavation circumstances, sent to me when I got home, were pretty crap.

[Fred Bullock]

Mary,

Just to let you know, the temple of Apollo Epicurius at Bassae is not currently under threat. A friend who works at the site and lives close by at Ancient Figalaea confirms this.

Last week I was on hols just three kms south of Zacharo at Kakovatos and ironically decided to visit Ancient Olympia on Friday 24th August, since a new museum (opened 1982) has been built to house Hermes et al since I was last there.

After my visit I returned to Kakovatos via Krestina and Zacharo and the fires started in that area later that afternoon.

I feel fortunate to have been one of the last to have seen the Sanctuary in all its beauty, because what I have seen since of TV footage, the fire did everything except damage the ancient stones, including decimating the sacred hill of Kronio overlooking the Altis.

I have lived in Athens for some five years after a long time in Australia, and I do not share your optimism as it relates to Greek ability to react to disaster. The Fire Service is grossly undermanned and underequipped.

As the Greeks themselves are now openly demonstrating, the Government was caught with its pants down, notwithstanding an earlier warning of an impending disaster with fires a few weeks ago in June/July.

Unlike in Australia where bushfires are expected every year and is ready for it, it seems that Greece is not.

I feel this more than any other issue may succeed in toppling this Government on Sept 16th.

[Lazaros]

I wonder what British would say if the stolen Parthenon marbles had been destroyed during one of the major fires in London...What would they tell a Greek who can claim that his anchestors inheritaged them to him and they're part of his culture. Probably "sorry...stuff happens".

[Stratos]

Peter Harris said: "Mount Parnassus (to use the ancient name)"
Mount Parnitha was burned. Mount Parnassus is further northwest near Delfi. All of our mountains still use their ancient names. As well as the rivers.

[peter harris]

Surely the museums of Greece must have some kind of plan in place in case of fire or other eventualities? You would certainly hope so considering the large cultural (and financial) cache they've found themselves sitting on.

[Robert]

I was in Athens two months ago during the heatwave and at the time of the first fires on Mount Parnassus (to use the ancient name). it was certainly scary to see the smoke and flames from the centre of Athens - and the papers there claimed this would cause climate change and a rise in temperature of a couple of degrees next summer. So it is a surprise that the fires are still breaking out. I am intrigued that the reports all seem to accept that it is arsonists at work - I always wondered if these arsonists are not just the universal heavy smokers that are the legacy of Greece being a major tobacco-producing country in the past. You only have to watch people throwing their cigarette ends away...

What worries me (and so I agree with Mary) is not just the possible destruction of major materials such as those at Olympia (in my memory one of the very best museum displays in Greece)but also of those off-the-beaten-track Byzantine churches - like Samari in Messene. One fears that, like the case of the Iraq war, it takes time to learn from later reports that we have lost cultural monuments as well as lives.

[Events]

Excellent point about ¨stuff happens¨. It does and there is no way to predict what may happen in the world to our cultural heritage in the form of ruins and to people. It is a very unfortunate event in Greece and hopefully they will recover quickly, so they may again welcome those who have yet visit and marvel at what is part of our collective human history.