Olympia (almost) burns...but Paris survives

First let me apologise for writing about the antiquities of ancient Greece, when so many people have died in the terrible fires -- probably almost a hundred casualties altogether so far. It reminds me a bit of the “bombing” of the Parthenon in 1687, which everyone now laments as the loss of a great building, forgetting the hundreds of women and children killed in the process.

But, conscience apart, even as I’m writing, it is not entirely clear what exactly has happened to which ancient sites in the Peloponnese.

The good news seems to be that the Greek and Roman remains of Olympia have escaped (and a lot of them, let’s remember, are of Roman imperial date and not from the fifth-century BC well-springs of democracy at all). The Greek Archaeological Service is very good on disaster planning, and almost certainly its fire protection devices, as well as the brave fire-fighters and a dose of good luck, played their part in keeping the site safe..

But the news reports have tended to concentrate on Olympia alone – when, in fact, there are any number of sites round about whose loss would be almost equally troubling in archaeological, even if not symbolic, terms. I think here of the temple of Apollo at Bassae on its romantic hillside (the temple itself is now  covered with a strange almost post-modern tent, as you see in the picture). We still don’t know whether this has made it. Let alone the much less well known temple of the “Great Goddesses” at Lykosoura in the valley below. And that’s before we start to think about the Byzantine churches gone up in flames.

At this point I begin to feel grateful for the dispersal of antiquities around the museums of the world.

Suppose Olympia and its museum had actually gone up in smoke (and fire quickly turns marble to a little pile of lime). At least some of the sculptures  of the key temple of Zeus would have been safe in the Louvre (like the one you see here). And if the temple at Bassae had been destroyed, then it would turn out to be a good idea after all that its sculptured frieze was in the British Museum in London.

This is not an argument about the quality of care these monuments are given whether in Greece or abroad (and almost all guardians of the Greek heritage -- Greek or foreign -- have something to be embarrassed about). It is more the “stuff happens” problem. Nature sometimes seriously messes up. In other words, like it or not in aesthetic or political terms, there is a very practical point to these Wonders of the World being split up.

There’s also an argument here for the old-fashioned plaster cast gallery. If the Olympia sculptures were to be destroyed in both Greece and France, then you would still be able to find a perfect set of replicas in the cast gallery of the Museum of Classical Archaeology in Cambridge (and in other plaster cast galleries the world over). Half a century ago many of these cast collections were themselves threatened with the (sledge-)hammer. Now we are a bit wiser about our fragile hold on the masterpieces of the past – and the need to protect them in a variety of guises.

Comments

[Some Greek girl]

I didn't really take the time to think about your post, but I've skimmed through the comments and I'm disgusted by the amount of pride and nationalism of most of these greek people. They have no argument whatsoever but their superiority, they claim they're the bests, the most ancien people in the world, etc. But they seem to forget Egypt, Mesopotamia, China and all these people that were sometimes far more advanced than Greeks. As for the being the best part, they rely on achievings of people who had lived 2 500 years ago in order to have everyone forget that they are not so great anymore. I'm Greek too and I really love Greece, but I'm lucky to live in another country. Indeed, you just have to take a step outside Greece to see that every country has something special. And Greeks are just as good as anyone else.

[Bob Smith]

What always seems so weird in these discussions are that some of the works in Greece were created by Romans.

Egypt is another example. There is little cultural link between Egypt today and the luck of the draw that placed another civilization on the same land ...

[Ioannis Georganas]

Regarding the appalling message of "Romana" I have only one thing to say. If it wasn't for all the foreign schools and institutes of archaelogy in Greece, very few research excavations would have taken place in such important sites as Knossos, Olympia, Delos and Delphi (to name but a few). The work of these institutes as well as their facilities (i.e. libraries. labs) are simply of paramount importance to the archaeology of Greece.

[Vasilis Tomaras]

After reading most of the comments on the article, I decided to write a few words, mainly targeting my fellow Greeks. It is very sad to realise that a lot of Greeks in a spontaneus effort to "protect" the greek heritage attack the professor using a rude/pathetic approach. Please do relaise that this type of reaction is what provides the opportunity to claim the inability and immaturity of our country in preserving the antiquities.

Greece is suffering a major disaster.. This, would have an affect in ancient ruins no matter how well organised the country was, or how big the support from other countries would be. We all need to respect the facts... British help would ofcourse be more than welcomed, but is the professor in any way related to this??? no...

I try to be very careful in my comments towards the article itself, considering the professor's competence in the area. nevertheless, my homble opinion is that approving/encouraging the dispersal of antiquities around the museums of the world to avoid didaster (or to "spread" the risk), can only be heard as a "light" academic discussion over a cup of tea... Antiquities belong always to to their birthplace and people as sensitive as the professor and all of us, should always be in the frontline to protect them from any possible enemy, natural or not.

[Micheal Cooper]

It seems an inabilty to speak Greek has alienated me from the conversation but I feel it's time for a few people to sleep on it before they hit post. That might lead to a fairer discussion/ debate

[ROMANA]

O ELLHNIKOS POLITISMOS EINAI O ARXAIOTEROS KAI GNWSTOTEROS POLITISMOS PAGKOSMIWS....ERXESTE APO OLA TA KRATH EITE NA TA THAUMASETE EITE GIA ANASKAFES (PALI KALA MAZI ME ELLHNES ALLIWS OSA MPOROUSATE THA TA EIXATE PAREI KAI AYTA STIN XWRA SAS)KAI ANTI NA EYXARISTEITE THN ELLADA KAI TOYS PROGONOYS MOY POY EXETE DOYLEIA KAI ERXESTE STHN PANEMORFH KAI PIO ENDIAFEROYSA XWRA (ME EYRWPAIKA PROGRAMMATA POY ERXESTE FREE KAI MAS POYLATE KAI YFAKI!!!!!).EXETE FIMIOYRGHSEI TOSA INSTITOYTA STIN ELLADA GIA NA MPOREITE NA DIKIAIOLOGHSETE TIN EPIMONH PAROYSIA SAS......TI DOYLEIA EXETE STIN AKROPOLI ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI????TI DOYLEIA EXETE STIN AIGINA ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI???TI DOYLEIA EXETE STON TAFO TOY MEGA ALEKSADROY ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI???? TI DOYLEIA EXETE STON PARTHENONA ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI??? STIN ARXAIA OLYMPIA ALLODAPOI ARXAIOLOGOI????EXOYME POLLOYS ELLHNARES ARXAIOLOGOI POY EINAI IKANOTATOI EPAGGELMATIES, ALLA TO SHMANTIKOTERO "ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ" POY MPOROYN, THELOYN KAI PANW APO OLA SEBONTAI THN ISTORIA TOYS KAI TON POLITISMO TOYS.ΕΙΜΑΣΤΕ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΚΑΙ ΣΕΒΟΜΑΣΤΕ ΤΗΝ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ ΜΑΣ!!!POLEMISAME GIA TIN PATRIDA MAS KAI TIN ISTORIA MAS!!!EIMASTE YPERIFANOI POY EIMASTE ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ KAI DEN THA EPITREPSOYME SE KANENAN NA MAS PAREI OYTE ENA BOTSALO APO OPOIADIPOTE PARALIA.....POSO MALISTA NA MAS PAREI THN ISTORIA MAS!!!!!!!!!

[Neo]

Since Prof. Beard is so keen to preserve the Greek antiquities, I suggest she carries out that task personally. Ideally she should place herself in front of them, I am sure neither burglers nor fire would want to approach

[Sophia]

I am shocked and astonished by the comments made by my fellow Greeks. Most of them demonstrate arrogance, ignorance, rudeness, pressumption, extreme and blind nationalism. Britain does not need to steal anyone's history, as many of you suggest, it has its own history and has made great contributions in science, engineering, the arts and many other areas.

The Parthenon marbles stand for an extraordinary period in Greek history and influenced the way in which civilization developed in the western world. Like every other Greek I would like to see them back in Greece less because they are 'owned' by Greece, and more because they should be best seen in the context they came from. But has anyone thought what we should do if we had a British monument left in our land independentely of the way in which it happened to be there? Would we had to send it back to Britain? Do we have to turn all the Ottoman mosques back to Turkey?

Has anyone thought what a museum is?A museum houses objects which are taken out of their context. Decontextualization is a problem in itself, and applies to all objects found in a museum. However, the museum phenomenon has larger benefits in terms of building knowledge, scholarship, educating the society as a whole and fostering cross cultural links. Do all museums in the world have to send all the Greek monuments or vases back to Greece? I am not advocating for the one or the other position. I am simply suggesting that there is no easy answer to these issues.

It is time to understand that we are responsible for the antiquities we hold in our land which connect with every other country's history in the western world and not just with ours. As to how proud we Greeks feel about our past, perhaps it is time to concentrate in those things we can be proud of about our present.

Certainly we cannot be proud of the way in which everyone expects the state to be the only agent that takes care of disasters instead of engaging in a collective program of caring and cherishing our environment and heritage, before disasters hit. The Greek people showed fantastic strength in fighting the fires themselves, but we should have a co-ordinated program of prevention.

We cannot be proud of objective opinions and civilized behaviour either, as these comments show (many of which have been astonishingly petty and offensive). And as a matter of fact, since everyone is so confident about knowing ancient Greek history, it was the Europeans who taught us our 'glorious' history after the first establishement of the Greek state. The poverty and deprivation during the previous centuries meant almost no inhabitant of Greece knew anything about it. We should acknowledge these facts and learn from nations that have something to teach us, in the same way in which these nations assimilated the lessons they learnt from us. Our ancestors, who many of you quote in this blog, would be appauled by these ugly and uncivilized responses to someone who has devoted her scholarship to their accomplishments.

Whether British people behave well on holidays is a totally different issue. Also, it is unfortunate that Britain did not help Greece, but the professor's article has nothing to do with this. Let's rise above narrow mindness, national sentimentalism, national barriers, who likes us and who does not. Let's speak less about what happened 2000 years ago in our land and more about what happens now and what we need to do in the future.

[anthony alcock]

BA: no, I was giving lectures on a cruise ship that stopped in Athens for two days.

[Strathclyder]

Dear Costa,

I've live in Scotland for a long time,in Glasgow and in Edinburgh, and I can assure you that this phenomenon of throwing up and passing water all over the place is taking place every single Friday and Saturday. I've seen girls 15 years of age, to be so drunk that would sleep all night until 9.00 am in the center of Edinburgh, literally on the road. It is therefore no disrespect of our Knossos i.e. but rather a disrespect to themselves. They literally humiliate themselves. In Britain this is called the nation's disgrace. So don't be offended if you see a British Girl throw up in Rhodes. As for Oral Sex Contests, well I think that next year I must go to Rhodes for holidays, that would be fun... :P (sic)

Kind Regards,

S.P

[Kostas A.]

How can you say things like that when the Brits dont have any respect for other cultures and civilisations.
Do i have to remind you that your loving home town people pee and throw up on our streets?Go to the Palace of Knossos in Crete and take pictures with their pants down laughing?That have oral sex contests in hotels in Corfu, Zakinthos,Rhodes and Crete (thanks to your club 18-30)?Did you see how was Athens after the Champions League final on May full of beer cans,drunk people harrasing girls fighting in broad day light.
You dont have any right to say that we should have the replicas when we in Greece see your civilisation EVERY summer.
Kostas A.

[Kostas Archontakis]

Dear mr.Mary Beard,i visited,last November,London and i went to the British Museum.I can't express to you my grief when i saw the Parthenon Marbles and a whole temple from Lydia in your museum.Yes your museum is beautiful (and also brings to London lots of money from tourists)but when someone buys stolen goods doesnt this makes him a thief?(and i believe that you recollect how Lord Elgin chopped the marbles with saws to sell them to you) Or in order to give you another example,we feel like a mother that has her child taken to foster parents.Wouldnt this mother do anything possible to get back her child that loves so much?I know that you dont have children (i.e civilisation) but its better for an originator to have the authentic things and you the replicas.What if we had two original Stonehedge menir and you had replicas?Or if in the port of N.Y had the Cutty Sark boat and you had a replica.Wouldnt you try to get the original back?
I believe that deep down you know I m right.
Sincerely
Kostas Archontakis

[Spyros Iakovidis]

Dear Caterpillar, I wish more of the responses to this article were as objective as your view. I have to apologise to both readers as well as the author for some of the comments made by my compatriots, but please note, as I have already pointed out in my earlier comment, that this is a very sensitive issue for us Greeks. I still cannot agree with the author's view, but in a democracy (first thought of and applied by Greeks) anyone is entitled to their view, as many of my fellow Greeks seem to have forgotten. In any case, if you are still interested in helping those affected by the fire, the Bank of Greece has opened an account to this end:
SWIFT: BNGRGRAA,
IBAN: GR9801000230000002341103053.

[caterpillar]

I have travelled around much of the Peloponnese, and have visited many of the "out of the way" sites that this rich and beautiful country has to offer. When I heard that Ancient Olympia was threatened, I scoured news sites, not so much for news of Olympia, but for all those lesser sites that have given me so much pleasure and inspiration. So far, to little avail - i just hope they are safe. (I have also looked without success to see whether there is some way to donate to help the Greek people dispossessed or to help the restoration efforts, again to no avail.)

I understand, though cannot condone, the rabid nationalism and misguided patriotism that has driven many of the more rabid comments here. But as Ancient Greece is a major wellspring for our European society, then one can argue we are all its descendants and so all have a "stake" in it as heritage. A Spaniard has as much right to "feel" a deep connection to the Acropolis as a Bulgarian as an Italian as a Greek as a... well, you get the point.

Being critical of nations' ability/inability, desire/lack of desire to maintain, respect and otherwise steward remains - whether ancient, neolithic, art deco or napoleonic - is also counterproductive. Mussolini drove a road through the heart of Rome's Forum, many of the smaller Roman and Greek sites across Europe seem depressingly neglected and unloved by all but the hardiest students and scholars, Britain is unable to protect its own heritage (see the abuse of the Cerne giant http://www.bbc.co.uk/dorset/content/image_galleries/cerne_giant_vandalism_gallery.shtml).

None of us is perfect, all of us (and sadly I suspect we are a minority) are united by our desire to preserve, study, understand and - crucially - to "spread the word" about our collective heritage. It would be far more productive to start there than to engage in petty remonstrations based on knee-jerk reactions.

[ΑΝΔΡΙΑΝΑ]

UA EPREPE NA NTREPESTE GIA AYTA POY GRAFETE. APODEIJTE OTI DEN YPARXOYN OFELH THS XVRAS SAS GIA TA ARXAIA MAS. POLLES FORES EXOYN KATASTRAFEI ARXAIA KAI BIZANTINA MNHMEIA STH XVRA MAS KAI TA EXOYME FRONTISEI GI AYTO ERXESTE KAI TA BLEPETE. KALO UA HTAN NA EPISTRECETE KAI AYTA POY EXETE KLECEI EKMETALEYOMENOI THN KATASTASH THS XVRAS MAS EKEINH THN EPOXH, ALLA DEN MPOREITE NA TO KANETE GIATI TI UA DEIJETE STA MOYSEIA SAS? AIVNOI PERIHGHTES. PANTA UA EPISKIAZEI O POLITISMOS MAS ESAS KAI TOY OMOIOYS SAS. O ALEJANDROS SAS PROBLIMATIZEI AKOMA!!!!!!!

[Adrian Moon]

Some of the people making accusations here might reflect that Greece's record on preserving antiquities which do not fit its national mythology is not unblemished. There is the well known neglect of its Ottoman heritage and at the present time Greece's 'Archaeological Council', if it is fit to be graced with such a name, wants to destroy two important Art Deco buildings just to improve the view of the Parthenon from the restaurant on top of the Acropolis Museum . I may be biased because I spend a lot of time in India but I get the impression that, despite spasms like the Babri Masjid, it treats it's non-Hindu Mughul and British heritage with more respect than Greece does its eqivelants.

[maria likaki]

o leonidas eipe STOUS PERSES:

MONON LABE.

KAI EMEIS SAN APOGONOI TOU LEME:

MONON LABE.

MONO ETSEI THA KATALABETE ti tha pei ellinikon pneuma.

alla tha subliroso kiolas oti otan kratoi den exoun istoria prospathoun na klepsoun tin istoria ton allon gia na fanoun spoudaoi.

[BA]

"It reminds me a bit of the time when I was nearly beaten up by a waiter in a cafe in Athens at the time of the Falklands War for being British."

Hi Antony,
Were you drunk out of your mind at the time and were you exposing yourself as many Brits visiting Greece do?????

[stella]

pws tolmaei ayti i anistoriti vretani na ekthetei aytes tis epikindines apopseis;;den ntrepontai gia ton viasmo twn glyptwn tou parthenwna;;mas zitane epiplewn k alles arxaiotites;;;k malista se mia toso dramatiki stigmi gia tin patrida mas;;oi ellines den paradinontai apolitiste vretanike lae.

WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT OUR HERITAGE?

[anthony alcock]

What an amazing response to relatively harmless and intelligent comments. It reminds me a bit of the time when I was nearly beaten up by a waiter in a cafe in Athens at the time of the Falklands War for being British.

[Thanasis Tsiamas]

Dear author,

I cannot help but to be reminded of the following ancient saying (perhaps you have heard it):

ΔΡΥΟΣ ΠΕΣΟΥΣΗΣ ΠΑΣ ΑΝΗΡ (in your case, ΓΥΝΗ) ΞΥΛΕΥΕΤΑΙ

'When the oak tree falls, every man/woman tries to get for himself/herself some wood'

This phrase is commnly used when people try to take advantage of another person's misfortune

It is always sad to see the laws of the jungle still aplying in human societies....

With respect...

[Aristoklhs]

I have a brighter idea. Lets send some parts to the Moon, Mars, Pluto or load them in some space-shuttles and send them somewhere out there.The aliens will know what to do.
So if a big meteorit crashes on earth, or the sea level will arise because of the global warming or a similar catastrophe occurs, they can be admired by other intelligent beings.

[Cleo]

I find many of the responses here absolutely extraordinary. I'm all for passion -- but not when it is blind, and divisive. Since when did one have to be Greek to share in the wonder of Olympia and express anxiety at its possible damage? As someone who works on this material, MB has more right than many of us to worry about the cruelty of these fires, the lack of information, and the tendency all of us have to privilege certain sites over others, no matter how wonderful these might be (none of which is a criticism of those who are currently doing their damnedest in an impossible and upsetting situation). It is at times like these that we might see a silver lining to the cloud that is Elgin and a ray of sunshine over otherwise dusty cast collections -- all of which (whatever we think about their original motivation today) have done a vast amount to celebrate and perpetuate the greatness of Greek artistic production.

[DIAS ( ZEUS )]

Dear Mary...
First of all to make such ill comments/sugestions at the time of national crisis in Greece.. it just shows the type of person that you are..Unless of course it's the English ( british )way.you guys are well known for that. since you are such an educated elit person then i'm sure you know how you became the U.K. ask yourself why was MARY QUEEN OF SCOTLAND KILLED? Do you think lord Elgin should have had the same fate ? i could really go on but i won't i'll leave you with this.. examine your own shortcomings before sugesting anything to anyone let alone tell GREEKS how to protect their heritige .. Unless the English still beileve their motto " devide and conquer" after all that's what you did in the Balkans during the 2nd W.W. .............