Do we need Wikipedia in Latin?

I’ve only just caught up with the fact that there is a version of Wikipedia in Latin: or, to be precise, Vicipaedia.

I have to say that it is all very well done. I explored it, hoping to discover some dreadful howlers. But a ten minute glance gave them pretty much a clean bill of health. And there is plenty of earnest worrying about how to translate such termini technici as ‘link’ into Latin. Ligamen, nexus or vinculum? Oh help…

They haven’t got very far yet. Check out  the section on “professores rerum classicarum” (professors of  Classics) and you’ll find they’ve only got to three: the distinguished, but unlikely trio of Barry Baldwin, E. R. Dodds and W. L. Westermann.

But my problem with this enterprise is not its accuracy in Latinity or its progress. It is: what on earth is the point?

I am a great supporter of retaining Latin where it is traditional or useful. I don’t want to get rid of  Latin mottoes on coins. Nor, for that matter, do I want to ‘modernise’ the speeches made on our Cambridge Honorary Degree day. They are delivered in Latin, with written English crib provided – for the benefit of those whose Latin is a bit challenged.

For one thing the slight incomprehensibility with which Latin clothes the whole occasion makes what might be the oozing flattery of the speeches in honour of those getting Hon. Degrees a bit less offensive. It also (as you’ll see if you take a look at James Diggle’s published Hon. Degree speeches) it allows a lot more wit than you’d get away with in English. Try him on Jacques Derrida – I always wonder what our Chancellor, Prince Philip, who has to listen to all this, made of that one.

Much the same goes for college grace before and after meals. “Benedictus benedicat etc etc” makes it a whole lot easier for the agnostic crew to let it all wash over them, while apparently satisfying the believers.

I’m pretty keen too on the general idea of using Latin in books meant for modern classical scholars. If you are a publishing a collection of ancient Latin inscriptions, you might just as well publish the commentary and explanation in Latin too. After all, anyone wanting to consult a Latin inscription is, by definition, bound to know the language – so it can be more inclusive to publish the commentary in Latin than in one particular vernacular, whether English, Swedish, or Japanese. It’s the lingua franca argument.

But that argument doesn’t extend to the likes of Vici – or to those charming Finns who waste their spare time putting the news into Latin and broadcasting it to the waiting handful.

The whole point about Latin is that it is a wonderful language, with wonderful literature worth reading on any evaluation of the world culture. But it is also well and truly dead. It doesn’t help the cause of Latin one bit to pretend that it is remotely worthwhile inventing new Latin words for “web” or “wind turbine” or “EU”.

So sorry if I’m being a killjoy, but I’m hoping that Vici dies a death.

(With thanks to Frank Wilson and Tony Francis for alerting me to Vici!)

Comments

[Francisca Parva]

Thank you for this article which has certainly provoked some interest! My reply can be found at:

http://tinyurl.com/5sacuf

[Fausta]

Tony wrote: "I wouldn't go about criticising Cambridge chairs and these kind of people anyway, not once they are dead or established. It's not going to make one many friends with the gods."

I'm just wondering if you'd care to elaborate on this? Are you seriously saying we shouldn't criticize university dons because "these kind of people" are like gods and if so I presume both parts were said in jest???

[Richard]

Another reason not to treat Latin as a modern language:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7333788.stm

All best,
R

[G.]

Scelerate "humilissimus" potius quam "humillimus" scripsi. Quod oportebat mihi satis clarum esse, nam in alia mea nota recte "simillimam" scripsi.

[Jane]

Not sure who is being castigated for fetishism, or on what grounds.
What I found exciting was the way the ancient language leapt out at me, similar to the guy's tale about the football team banners in Italy.
I was forced to sit in a hotel room in Portugal for ten days, nursing sick daughter, while we waited for clearance from medical insurers to fly home.
Desperate to hear any English spoken, we tuned in to a Brad Pitt film which was screened in English with Portuguese subtitles.
Romantic heroine asked mentor when it was OK to give up on a relationship if it didn't seem to be successful. "Never" said Brad Pitt. "Nunco" flashed across the screen in the subtitles. Heroine asked the question again, when is it OK to give up? "Never".. "Nunco"
I was so excited I texted my other daughter back in England to look up nunco in her Latin dictionary and confirm my 30-year old memory from O-level Latin. She texted back, "Yes, the word for never is numquam".
This brought some much-needed delight to an otherwise difficult period of time.
I felt I'd touched a link which had been passed down from generation to generation for two thousand years.
Having been brought up in the UK, where Latin is the language of power, (the church, the law), and is used to subjugate, to legislate and to pontificate, it was stunning to hear it in everyday use.

And the advice about never giving up on a relationship has come in handy from time to time, as well.

[Lidwina]

But what is point? And does a website in a just-about dead language have more point than a professorship in Classics?

[SW Foska]

- 'Gheorghiu' is quite common, it is really the Greek form 'Georgiou' in Romanian orthography (many Greeks settled in Romania over the centuries but they are thoroughly assimilated). 'Standard' is Georgescu, although people only really started having these -escu surnames in the 19th century, before that you would be 'al lui Gheorghe' (George's), which you can still hear in villages.
- The '-ica' diminutive for the Christian name 'Gheorghe' is 'Gica'.
- Any more questions? I'm hoping to drum up enough clientele to set up a pay-per-minute Hotline.

[Tony Francis]

Gheorghiu is a frequently seen Romanian name. Is this just a common last name, or are these people exceptionally talented?
Florin Gheorghiu (including his win in the Nimzo-Indian in 1966 over Bobby Fisher: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb5 etc)
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florin_Gheorghiu
Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gheorghe_Gheorghiu_Dej
Piano prodigy Teo Gheorghiu
http://www.harrisonparrott.com/artists/Teo_Gheorghiu.asp
and finally Angela
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Gheorghiu
It would appear Angela not only sings La Traviata, but is la traviata (my understanding is that "la traviata" means "the troubled girl". Other sources give: "the fallen woman" or "the woman who strays" - maybe these latter descriptions aren't fair to her. Maybe "La Tempesta" would be better.)
Concerning Wiki: I am not retracting anything I previously wrote. Someone added something to one of my articles. I was faced with a trilemma: 1.) leave it (it was written in a dorky and misleading fashion); 2.) revise it; 3.) delete it. It was pertinent, so I rewrote it, which was quite a bit of work. Years ago I was whining to my old editor. In old Jewish wisdom/guilt, he said, "You are the only one who can do it. It isn't a matter of who can do it, and won't. They can't. You can." And so it is. I am back writing on Wiki. They are still the same jackasses as before. But, there are so many sub-par articles needing attention. If you want to call that a lover's spat, so be it.

[SW Foska]

Alternatively, Romanian 'Gorica' could be a diminutive of 'Grigore'.

[SW Foska]

'G', thankyou for your observations. I would try to write Latin too but I might be asked to pay myself (badly) to translate myself (badly). Just by the way, 'Gorica Pirgu' is a man's name, that of a character from the classic Romanian novel 'Craii de Curtea Veche'. "-ica" is a standard diminutive suffix to masculine names, e.g. Ionica, Petrica. 'Gorica' is maybe from 'Goran' a common Serbian name also possible in Romanian. It is pronounced 'Gorika' and the stress is on the 2nd syllable, unlike 'Gorica', the Slavic name for Gorizia, which is pronounced 'Goritsa' and stressed on the 1st. Both derive from Slavic 'gora' = mountain.

[G.]

Gratias tibi ago, o Ricarde, propter notitiam huius paginae interretialis de nuntiis Graecis, quam nunc cotidie diligenter conabor legere, ita ut tandem et Graece tam volubiliter quam Latine scribere possim.
Sed, de Gorizia, oportet monere Slovenice Goricam appellari, quod nomen eiusdem dominae est quae hic scribit.
Foska: haud mirum sit G, Gambrinum, atque Gamberini eundem virum esse. Sed, etsi clarissimus, humilissimus quoque, nam non solum Vicipaediae mihi opus est, sed multi studii ac scientiae. Scribo quam velociter possim, nec libro grammaticae utor. Sed, ut dixi, quodvis initium feci, ac paenitet me quod nemo mecum secutus est.

[Richard]

I knew Tony F. would return to the wiki fold. It's like watching a lovers' reunion. We must all pretend to forget all those words written in anger.
R

[Tony Francis]

Dearest Foska: The Wiki article on Istro-Romanian has been deemed to have "weasel words". I didn't see any weasel words, but it appears to have been written by someone who uses English as a second language:
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanian_language
The article on Istro-Romanian grammar carries a "needs to be re-written" tag. It appears adequate to me:
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istro-Romanian_grammar
Istro-Romania seems to be yet another patch in the patchwork of the Balkans:
http://www.istro-romanian.net/
The UN endangered language list declares Istro-Romanian to be a "seriously endangered language".
http://www.helsinki.fi/~tasalmin/europe_index.html
My mother's Austrian grandfather used to converse with travelling Gypsies in their own lingo, much to her delight. I see from the list that Gypsy is Romani and considered extinct.

[SW Foska]

tony, i was not talking about Friulian but about the putative dialect of Romanian which Amelie had claimed existed. Incidentally there is a dialect of Romanian near Friuli called 'Istro-Romanian' but it is not 'more latin' than standard romanian. there are apparently only 350 speakers left.

[Tony Francis]

Dearest Foska: Are you suggesting the Wiki article concerning Friulian is in error? If so, you should offer to revise it. By the way, I am back writing on Wiki. One can curse the darkness, or light a candle. This reminds me of a Catholic Church, St. Anthony's, in Wichita, KS which was recently restored to its German condition, complete with German written above the altars, as originally built. Above one of the side altars was a gold leafed incomprehensible phrase. I finally figured out it was Vietnamese. Some German restoration!

[Amelie J Smith]

Dear Fosca

Thank you.

[SW Foska]

Richard, no such dialect is recorded by either the older or newer Atlasul lingvistic roman. By the way, I'm against fetishizing 'preserved' latin. Anyone is free to rhotacize, palatalize, plunder other lexical funds, add alloy wheels, whatever.

[Tony Francis]

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

[Richard]

I meant "west Asian", of course. I was trying too hard not to say "oriental" in case somebody told me off.
R

[Richard]

When I was visiting my partner's family in NE Italy (near to Trieste, and nearer to Gorizia), the football team from Udine, further up towards the mountains where Friulan is spoken, won a great victory.

See here for Friulan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friulian_language

The local TV news showed the crowd cheering and greeting their heroes with many flags and banners in the team's black and white colours. Rather as when the arabic numerals stick out from something written in a script like Japanese or Chinese, the word "habemus" suddenly popped up from one of these banners. "My goodness," I thought, "This mountain language really is very archaic!"

In fact the banner read "Bianco e nero? Habemus campioni!" ("Black *and* white? Habemus Champions!").

It was a joke on the recent installation (coronation? inauguration?) of the new Pope ("habemus papam" says the cardinal when the smoke has turned white...).

Anyway, Amelie's first comment referred to local dialects in Romania, not to "standard" Romanian. Is the point perhaps that some Romanians speak a dialect which lacks (many of) standard Romanians words with Slavonic and east Asian roots? Or is more conservative in its phonetics (as Sardinian is more conservative in many ways than "standard" Tuscan Italian)?

Best wishes,
Richard

[Oliver Nicholson]

Someone once pointed out to me that Lucifer of Cagliari (mid-4th c. bishop) liked to use "narrare" in stead of "dicere" and that modern Sardinian dialect habitually uses a derivative of 'narrare' for "to say'. I do not know if this is true.
OPN

[PL]

Dante, in his "De Vulgari Eloquio", remarked that the Sardinians have no vernacular of their own but only speak "grammatica" (i.e. Latin). No doubt that was an exaggeration. But I'm told that even today the dialects of central Sardinia are-- in their more obvious features at least-- the closest thing to Latin you can hear on the lips of ordinary people. For instance, instead of "andiamo" they say "eamus".

[Jane]

Ref survival of Latin in modern European languages-
Portuguese contains everyday vocabulary which is virtually unchanged from Latin - you can almost hear the word slightly mutating down the centuries
Examples "nunco" = never
"hoje" = today

[SW Foska]

1. Amelie, I usually charge £300 a translation, and even then I'm not rich. But as you're new, and as nobody else has leapt forward, here goes: 'Your opinion is somewhat debatable. I don't know if you or Mr. Gambrinus understand Romanian, but few specialists would go so far as to designate that language 'a form of latin' Pretty much verybody recognizes that it has Latin roots, but it also has Slavic and Thracian ones, an extensive Turco-Oriental vocabulary, and other secrets too, which distinguish it from Latin.'
2. Hi Gorica, thanks for your judicious comments, how is Curtea Veche? Just about the masculine vocative, it may be "identical to that of the Latin second declension", but it is also identical to the Slavic. E.g. Lord in Serbin is 'gospodin', the vocative is 'gospode'. While the Romanian feminine vocative is more Slavonic than Latin: sister 'sora' becomes 'soro'.
3. Tony, by 'Oriental' here I mean nothing Saidian, but need a generalising adjective to refer to that group of vocabulary of Persian, Arabic or Turkish origin which came via Ottoman Turkish to most Balkan languages.
4. Finally, and hopefully relevantly, 'G' does need Vicipaedia to tell him that it's usually not 'lingua romana' but 'lingua dacoromana', a term coined by modern Romanian linguists to avoid saying 'valachica' which is what mediaeval latinists really used. And Romania a 'civitas'? If only!

[Michael Bulley]

Loved the comment from Thomas Wibberley (the first to this piece). I felt it had to go (pointlessly) into Latin verse somehow. At last I wrote a pointless, even witless, piece of verse (non-Ovidianly). Wibberley’s comment was witty, though.

utilis haec est res at semper inutilis illa.
illa modo placuit nunc placet haec mihi res.