Prince Harry: the Roman solution

I’ve found the adulation of Prince Harry -- who appears to have spent a couple of months driving a lap-top and something called a “Spartan vehicle” in Afghanistan -- a bit hard to take. OK, it’s easy for me to sneer, as I haven’t been in the Taliban firing line, but you know what I mean. Wouldn’t it actually have been more honourable if he had faced danger on some humanitarian project rather than pushing forward whatever military folly we’re committing in Afghanistan.

Almost equally insufferable were the interviews with the said youth, including his memorable comment about how he didn’t like England much.  To this, I had two reactions. One is that it is Harry’s job to like England. The rest of us are allowed to feel as ambivalent as we like. But, as third in line to the throne, he doesn’t have that luxury (though he has plenty of other ones). So he’d better just get on with it.

Second is that, if it’s the paparazzi who are bothering him, then may be fewer late night romps at Boujis could do the trick.

But further thought suggested that there was a Roman angle to this trip of the young prince to the military front line. In fact, Roman emperors knew a thing or two about the problems of sending the son and heir off to war.

The emperor Augustus had particularly bad luck. Two of his grandchildren and chosen heirs were sent to the front and never came back. Young Lucius was off to fight in Spain, but died at Marseilles on the way out. That was in 2 AD. In 4, his brother Gaius died in the east, after a war wound.

At least we’ve got Harry back.

Tiberius had bad luck of the opposite kind. He sent his adopted son Germanicus to the German frontier.  The glamorous prince didn’t manage to round up Arminius, the chief terrorist of the region -- who was presumably holed up, Osama like, in a cave somewhere. But he did score a number of successes which went down rather too well in Rome for the peace of mind of his jealous father.

Tiberius’ answer was to declare the war resoundingly finished (even though it wasn’t) and bring him back home for a triumph in 17 AD. It must have been uncomfortable for the emperor, putting on a grateful face at the ceremony. But at least it had put a stop to his victories.

Not that it was more than a temporary solution. Germanicus went off to the eastern frontier in 18 AD. The next year he died in suspicious circumstances in Antioch (Poussin's version above). The Roman governor of Syria was tried for his murder. Gossip on the street was that he had been poisoned at Tiberius’ orders.

Whatever the awkwardness of Harry’s current position, this story reminds us that his seniors must be grateful that he didn’t pull off any really major heroics. Imagine that, armed only with his lap-top and Spartan vehicle, he had single handedly rescued 20 wounded men under Taliban fire. The tabloids would have loved it. But the political problems of what to do with him next would have been a lot worse.

And who would have played Tiberius?

Comments

[Michael Igoe]

Lord Truth, you're so very right - but nobody listens. It's dangerous for some reason to criticise Israel for anything, careless of killing innocent bystanders, building that absurd wall. But even thinking this, I suppose, brands me an anti-semite. No criticism allowed, although I'm from another group annihilated in those camps, for having epilepsy. I've checked the facts.
Why has being a 'liberal', in any sense, become a mortal sin? I've checked my wrists, and they're no more weak than they were. My heart's not bleeding, to my knowledge, because I don't believe in 'hang 'em high' justice (so-called), like the dimwittery in Washington.

No, liberal I am and stay, in the proper sense of the word ('free-thinking'). I won't be dictated to by inferiors, in government or not.

[Michael Igoe]

I'm sickened - but anything but surprised - at the vehemence thrown at Mary's comments. 'She should stick to her books', make jam' etc.etc.
So someone who reads and is familiar with history shouldn't comment? The benighted Pres. Bush isn't noted for his literary concerns. Perhaps if he had done more reading, his country would be in a better state. I'm an (ex-) academic too, so I suppose I shouldn't comment either. Why not? Be sure I will, and have done many times.
But it's so often the case that the weapon of choice for the unthinking is a carelessly aimed dose of vitriol. Saves thinking no end. But it won't stop questions. Hand out the hemlock if you like. We know who wins in the end.

[Michael Igoe]

Well, I'm prepared to criticise as much as I like, royals or not. I'm an intending UK republican, and am ready to say so (as I've just done).
Wars were fought for free speech, yet a few (or more) above moan when we exercise that right re their own obsessions.
Too bad, I'm afraid, for some of us don't agree. And I believe that film of the younger royal not a fraction. Would anyone truly talk cheerfully aside to camera while firing a .50 machine gun at a supposed enemy? If he did, he should be on a charge. It's about as unsafe as riding a motor bike, handlebars removed, down a crowded street.
And here we go: 'It's his job to like this country'. And how do you enforce that duty?
As for the moralistic, half-witted, gripes about the Cranach poster, please don't even get me started.

[Tony Francis]

For those of you who are deluded into thinking Barack Obama will bring something new to US foreign policy, read of his recently quitted advisor, the appropriately named Samantha Power. This Irish/American 37 year old Harvard Lawyer has proposed "bringing solutions to places where no political solution is available". The solution will be enforced. In other words, "we have the military to make you get along. Get along or we will kill you." OK- maybe BO will de-emphasize Iraq. But Darfur, or maybe Israel/Palestine will be in the gun sights of "nation building". It's dangerous to let liberals of any stripe get their gommers on the US military. I have to wonder about a Harvard educated lawyer who calls Hillary Clinton "a monster" in front of a Scottish journalist. Well - duh! What do they give out up there at Harvard Law School, dumb pills? Or as one lawyer told me: "Even smart people make dumb mistakes. You can always count on it in every trial. Somebody is gonna screw up."
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Power

[John Gregory Flinn]

"...including his memorable comment about how he didn’t like England much."

I've not been able to access your link to Harry's actual comments, but no matter your post is interesting enough.

I'm not sure anyone is supposed to like England!
I have the firm impression Harry is right in line with the 'received wisdom' on that question.
Perhaps his view is a 'freudian' insight into the thinking of his peers.
He is supposed to like the UK, or Britain and 'the British', but surely, to reveal any preference - even negative - is hardly politic, and might be thought of as nationalist.

As I recall, the last person to express any love for England and its identity was Enoch Powell.
His concerns over it losing its identity, its future demise in the hands of politicians and its ensuing querulous people appear to have caused England to be cast into the wilderness, along with his ideas.
That is, according to Denys Blakeway in the BBC'c 'white' season.

Being 'ambivalent' about England hardly inflames passions, and seems to be the inverse of developments elsewhere in the Kingdom.
Perhaps it is an axiom.

[Tony Francis]

Dear Lord T: I shan't carpet bomb you about medicine in the US. I could tell you a lot, but I won't. Anyway, you have mistaken me for a B-52. Those aren't bombs from my bowels, but beautiful little flower blossoms of knowledge I am dropping in your general vicinity. By the way, you mention nothing of the cigar: did I win it or not? No matter; I gave up smoking some time ago. So had I won the cigar, it would have been only a pyrrhic victory. Or, perhaps a non-pyrrhic victory, since I wouldn't have smoked it, anyway.

[Lord Truth]

I cannot keep hurrying to my bunker at the approaching buzz of Mr Tony Francis, that human B 52,from whose hot bowels pours forth a ceaseless torrent of erudition-library carpet bombing indeed,but before ending my comments here,I feel I must say something more.
Mr Francis mentions American liberals...Ah ..what heart flutterings that word produced in my generation in years gone by...a positive atrial fibrilation of gigantic proportions...An American liberal,with a new vision...now everything would be all rite,all brite ..as the ads used to say..
Sadly the vision thing was totally phoney..indeed the International Herald Tribune(sorry Rupert) says only today that there is virtually no difference between the Presidential candidates-all will, for example, take the same hard line with Russia.
There are in fact only two things that matter for America and the world.One is restructuring the American healthcare system.President Clinton tried this and failed.Hilary tried this and failed.Obama will try this and fail.There are too many interested parties locked together to break it.
Then Israel.Until someone stands up to Israel, Muslim terrorists will continue to use that as a recruiting base and worse - the failure of Western moral authority here will continue to be used to justify more horrors elswhere.
How many times do Western ambassadors and leaders try to de- fuse crisis points in the world ,only to be met by a grinning-'But what are you doing about Israel?'-and great guffaws of laughter.Nor does it end there.Despite many other causes even Western street crime is partly fuelled by this moral failure-'Whats wrong with me knocking down this old lady-what about Israel?' Perhap you laugh-people who do that kind of thing dont read the Guardian.Sadly all the candidates are in the pockets of Israel and will support whatever it does.
How extraordinary that fifty years ago it was my dream and other young men like me, to work on a kibutz,talk all night to young brilliant Jewish intellectuals who had escaped the Nazis,about the future of socialism ,of science as we played records of the Amadeus string quartet ...
So what of the 'socialist' nation building that Tony trumpets?
As I have indicated ,America can control much of the world, with its CIA commercial travellers,briefcases packed with Dollar bills,collecting everykind of criminal rif raf to do its dirty work.Then when the right man is installed ,comes Tonys 'nation building'-only putting millions into the same corrupt pockets of the same people-money that never gets anywhere near the poor for whom it is -ostensibly- intended-is not socialism-nor is it nation building-it is nation breaking.
And modern America, whose G.I.s were so magical to me as a small boy,is very good at it.

[Tony Francis]

Dear Lord T: You are proving to be a tough nut to crack in this matter. Consider this: I write for federal judges, among others, in the 9th federal circuit. This circuit is, by far, the most leftist in the US. Some have said it is left of the Chinese Communists. About a month ago, a judge exclaimed about me: "You are the biggest liberal in the 9th Circuit!" Personally, I consider this an insult, and anywhere else in the US, so it would be. But he meant it as a compliment; a term of endearment. There is no finer appellation in the 9th circuit. He said it as if he had discovered a gold nugget, or a spare million dollars he didn't know he had. It was an uncontrollable, ejaculatory exclamation. I replied: "Your honor, I am neither liberal, nor conservative. I only follow the law as it is written." Now, if following the law, as written in the US makes one a bigger liberal than the Chinese Communists, will you concede the point? Can I light up your cigar now?

[Lord Truth]

No.

[Tony Francis]

Dear Lord T: It can be argued that the purpose of the S & P 500 is, inter alia, to provide employment at government expense. But Boeing recently lost a tanker contract from the US Air Force to Airbus. Our government is so completely socialist, and internationally so, that we are awarding $35 billion in US tax dollars to England and France to stimulate not the US economy, but those of the EU. Hardly makes the case that you proposed: we are getting ready to topple France and England. A patriotic, xenophobic, God fearing government would have kept those tax dollars in the US. Our government is altruistic, even to you lefties over there in Europe. Nobody but a bunch of socialist idiots in the US would do such a thing. Do I win the cigar now?

[Lord Truth]

A good try Tony,but no cigar.

[Tony Francis]

The US is the most socialist country in the world. The S & P 500 exists because of the largesse received from the US Treasury. And as J. K Galbraith explained, the S & P 500 exists to carry out the purposes of, and the general aims of the government. That sounds like socialism to me. Anyone with a job (even minimum wage) is immediately in a 50% tax bracket. The only question left between BO, Queen Hillary and Johnny Boy is: how quickly and close can they get that figure to 60%? That sounds like socialism to me. The federal government and the state provide financing for 65% of all health care, and completely control all aspects of medical care through laws and regulations. That sounds like a socialist system to me. Entering the Vietnam War with no military plan to win, and promises to create a US style welfare state there doesn't sound like conservative republicanism to me. This pattern has been repeated numerous times: Haiti, the Balkans, Somalia, and now Iraq and Afghanistan. Forget what Bush calls himself. This looks like the international socialism you all are pressing for. Oh wait, we don't call it socialism: it is "nation building". Financing this multi-trillion dollar war with borrowed Chinese money has unleashed the inflation genie. That is hardly conservative fiscal responsibility.
And no, this is not a religious war. If it were, we would have killed the Imams and resistors, baptized the remainder and turned the mosques into Christian churches.

[Felix]

"Roman emperors knew a thing or two about the problems of sending the son and heir off to war."

I think that the tradition of the Royal Family of doing military service is one of their redeeming features.

It is deeply disturbing that so few other prominent, powerful people in this country, especially politicians - Labour in particular, have served in the armed forces.

So it is that it is always other peoples children that you are sending in to battle, to be killed or (as should be equally heavy on the conscience of the sender) to kill.

[Paul Potts]

Dear Mary, I'm not sure I want you to post this one; you've had quite enough on this post anyway.

Yes, Richard. When Mr Blair appears before the court in the Hague on charges of Human Rights violation and mass murder, I shall die happy.

Yes and yes, Lord Truth, wherever you come from. Of course one regrets the death of so many at 9/11, but there are a lot more regrets to live with, such as the 30,000-odd killed in Baghdad in the shock-and-awe campaign, never mind the casualties, or Fallujah, where it was the hospitals that were targeted in order to conceal the body count. After the regrets, the concern, the care for all the victims, admiration of the sheer elegance of 9/11. Americans killed with American planes and American-trained personnel, and American funding. It won't happen again, I guess, if only because the "terrorists" are not all that interested. They've got better things to do, unless they need another publicity stunt.

Paulo

[Boomer]

Lord T:
Why do all roads lead to Socialist Utopia these days? The original blog was a nice bit of restless peasant keyboarding with clunking reference to ancient dysfunctional ruling families- lighten up, M'Lord. The socialist regimes in USSR, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia, did sterling work keeping the tin lid well down and tight on these hot-spots and gave the rest of the world a bit of a breather- but they didn't actually solve the political-socio-religious problems therein, did they? And what about the vein of Socialism-lite currently being mined at our expense here- I don't think a shonky bureaucrat and bug-ridden NHS, an education system that leaves 30% of primary school kids under-numerate and under-literate, and a transport system that charges Orient express rates for Shanghai express experiences- would that be the answer to third-world needs? 'Socialism: The Answer' is like the 'Peace on Earth and Love thy Neighbour' in-joke of the big world religions- probably the world's earliest and longest running bit of spin. If, in this 2008th year, with all the knowledge ofthe past behind us and the wealth of science and knowledge of the present in front of us, humans are still reduced to pathetic political and religious excuses for killing each other en masse - our only hope for the future is an interplanetery intervention- fast.

[Lord Truth]

It wasnt the Communist regime in Afghanistan who flew 'Our airliners into our buildings' but Ossama Ben Laden and his Al Quada -an organisation created, organised, funded ,trained and armed by the Uninted States and the CIA (with British help)
Until the morning of 9/11 Ossama was talked of reverently at Washington dinner tables as a great American hero
Unlike the heroic minded British,whose empire rested on the simple fact that it could put twenty thousand men anywhere in the world in the confident and unconcerned knowledge that within six months half of them would be dead either from fighting or disease,the Americans have always avoided fighting preferring to use 'proxy' armies their wealth can provide
Unfortunately, such collections of gangsters,fast buck merchants,wheeler dealers and other garbage are never reliable and are always liable ,particularly if they win, to turn on their creators.
As for Iraq the origins of that war were clearly stated by the Ex British Ambassador to Saudi Arabia on Television .The USA ,looking for revenge for 9/11 was prodded by Israel into choosing Iraq which was giving financial support to Palestinian suicide bombers
Another factor would have been that, however heavy handed the regime was-and as we now know the three factions there are basically opposed to each other and difficult to control,it was a fairly successful socialistic modern regime that had turned Iraq into a modern socialist state and must therefore be destroyed.
One wonders if, following Iraqs successful destruction and visiting the deepest bunkers in Washington where the highest military and political leaders get together to relax, one would not hear today ,after the whisky has gone round a few times, similar expressions concerning the need to to deal with those Goddam Commie Frenchies and-despite being a supposed ally, the need to kick the butts of those labourite limey bastards and their commie health system.
The US ceaselessly props up every kind of religious backed dictatorship on the principle that Religion in= Socialism out
If the world is to get back to anything approaching real progress America and 'the West' should realise that only socialistic regimes can get people out of basic poverty and thereby put out the flames that fan religious based extremism.
I do not personally believe in what I call the National Geographic Magazine(apologies) approach to humanity. The poor are not romantic creatures living their timeless romantic lives as fishermen or poor farmers.
Ultimately everyone wants exactly the same thing-education and healthcare-two cars in the garage and a nice house in a quiet Melbourne suburb. Socialism is the first step to getting there.

[Boomer]

Left-wing academics appear to have fallen upon hard times as opposed to their spears in these halcyon days and no matter how subtle and layered the article is, it still reads as a cheap and ill-considered whinge. I hold no torch for the monarchy; they are like insects in amber, nice to look and wonder at, but of no great significance. Harry is doing what young royals do today and tried to find a purpose for himself, and, even though it falls into the traditional royal 'jobs'list - no doubt it puts him into reality mode, and his skills in the field should be judged by his peers. Young men are hard-wired towards fighting and danger, and at least he is doing this in uniform albeit for reasons which he, and most of the army would not personally endorse. Old men send young ones to fight their battles- no change there then, regardless of circa. The streets of England are patrolled by hundreds of thousands of young men in a far more worrying uniform, with far more negative effect on our lives than Harry. Whether democratic or republican, a Roman government would not have tolerated a sub-class of hoodies and sturdy beggars, unlike the one-size-fits all British governments of recent times who seem to be prepared to wait a long time for this sub-class to disappear (devoured raw by their own young, presumably). So, please, Mary Beard, turn your attention to 'real' problems and lay off the Ginger Kid.

[Tony Francis]

Dear Lord T: The night this post on Prince Harry came up, I wrote a really brainy comment. Then I noticed that the Cambridge Professor had inadvertantly started up a food fight. So it wasn't exactly cowardice, but rather shyness that has kept me from posting. I think your analysis of the Iraq/Afghanistan War is far too complicated. I think it is more like: if you fly airliners into our buildings, you get our military and our welfare programs and our federal government poking into your business for the next hundred years. And if you are a country that is two countries over from the country that flew airliners into our buildings, you get the same. I don't think there is any more to it than that. But I could be wrong. Heavens knows, we've got enough of it here in the US. The Middle East might as well put up with it as well. Here is an example of how camouflage can create optical illusions in the desert. When I was with the US Army in Desert Storm, we certainly never did anything foolish like this (click to enlarge):
http://groups.msn.com/brothersoftheNam/thosesneakymarines.msnw
I shall post my brainy writing later.

[LADY LIES]

I'm presuming Harry hasn't been told he is brilliant all the time or certainly that it hasn't gone to his head. Presumably he likes to learn somewhat?

[Lord Truth]

I notice a curious absence of some of the regular "commentators" regarding this piece-cowards!
Eons ago it seems I used to go swimming -or dog paddling with Prince Harry,then a perky seven year old who liked to jump in the pool to cause as much trouble as possible rather than swim like the other seven year olds,so I do sometimes follow his exploits.
One should be careful about attacking any one in a military situation.I was in Tripoli when the Americans bombed it-a short attack but they kept coming back every few hours for a few days just to keep the Libyan forces on their toes-who sent up everything -even low angled six inch shells from old Russian cruisers-the noise was unbelievable -and distictly scary as was undoubtedly the London blitz and all blitzkriegs.Harry could quite possibly have become "five thousand pounds of education dropped by ten cents of Afghan lead"as Kipling wrote of the first Afghan war.
The whole point of modern Monarchy is that ,ridiculous and absurd as it is ,it is living and therefore links people to the past and generationally opens up possibilities for the future. The fact that Britian is still at the top of the world for scientific medical and technological research may well be conected not merely to its Protestant freedoms of thought but to the sense that human life is always renewing and changing and that is represented by a living monachy.What country-honestly- represents change more-(horrible)Britain or conservative America?Think about it...
As for Afghanistan it had a perfectly civilised Communist government that brought free and equal education for men and women equal rights ,healthcare and other socialist blessings. Socialism may not be suitable for advanced countries but it is the only way to get poor countries out of poverty until with a healthy educated population they can develop free markets.There is no alternative.I wish there was.
When African countries became independent in the sixties they had governments emulating British socialism.Then America (and Britain) effectively destroyed these governments fearing Russian and Chinese influence .The result is the chaos ,corruption and gangsterism we see now -as in Afghanistan

[Richard]

Vicky W.: no particular dig at the US was intended with my reference to the Hillary Clinton "iron my shirt" thing - every country has its neanderthal tendency, and it was simply the parallel that sprang to mind...

Indeed, it should be clear from my only semi-jocular republican comments that I have great respect mingled with envy for (aspects of) the great early republics (i.e., I suppose, the USA and France).

Who was it who commented, in response to the usual stuff about how much visiting tourists from the USA and France like the Royal thing, that "they like it because it isn't theirs"?

But of course any government will always have more important things to do than reforming the more-or-less decorative bits of the constitution, so I suppose we'll have them for a good long time yet.

If I were a US voter, I hope I would vote a) for universal good healthcare provision (which we Brits have, for all its over-emphasised faults) and b) to punish those who got us into the Iraqi war (which we Brits have lamentably failed to do).

Unfortunately, it seems to me from my rather limited knowledge of the campaign that a) means Clinton, but b) means Obama...

Best wishes,
Richard

[John Dough]

I'm sorry but can you really expect a young man to ever find happiness in a country whose popular press has spent 10 years picking at the carcass of his dead mother? If I was Harry I would have joined the taliban and bombed fleet street

[betty]

What savage attacks! No, not on Harry, on Professor Beard. She's damned as a classicist, a teacher, female, feminist, and then comes the ultimate insult, bitter. I haven't read the likes since Professor Greer last told the truth about something.

[Paul Potts]

Dear Mary

Is this what you have to put up with (and get rid of) with every post, or is it just because you mentioned a member of the British, or should I say, UK monarchy? Anyway, I'm glad I do not have a website.

I did not respond earlier. because it seems to me that it is impossible to write anything involving our monarchy without some kind of absurd posturing. Your article was free of that at least, unlike many of your respondents.

You attempted to make a parallel between modern and ancient history, naive and crude though it was. But funny.

Learning from history is a tricky business; it usually involves invoking dubious parallels in order to justify or condemn present political or military action. You weren't even doing that, I think. But one thing we can learn from history is "Keep Out Of Afghanistan". See the film "Carry On Up the Khyber", for example, or the Russian invasion, which took ten years of failure. Actually, it's the Russians, not us, that the Taliban want to get. Believe me - I have lived in Algeria, whose own war against their "fundamentalists" was conducted against an organisation created by and conducted by returnees from that war in Afghanistan. What we call "the training camps". Russia seems to have pacified Chechnya for now, but Tacitus got this one right: "They create a wilderness and call it peace."

It seems that NATO will have to learn this all over again. Whatever the problems are, they will only exacerbate them, from poppy growing to the generation of terrorists.

As to prince Harry (isn't he the gay one? But see what Paul Burrell hasn't yet said) the lesson is, I think, is to end this absurd media-monarchy. We do not need a President. Just make the Speaker of the House of Lords the Head of State, {"The Lord Chancellor") shorn of whatever powers Mr Blair's bodge-and-drop politics has left her, scrap the "Civil List" and sell off Windsor Castle and the rest to other foreign tycoons.

Paulo

[vicky whiting, USA]

Richard,

So sorry. I did not respond to the "Clinton, iron my shirt". Silly isn't it. Another thing to hang our USA heads about.

I don't like the candidates attacking each other either. I would rather hear about health care and setting up public transportation. Many Americans are losing their homes because we just can’t afford to live on our wages any more.

But that is my point. I want to read about how all countries are going to resolve issues, not read about how a very young man made a poor choice in a Halloween costume or spoke out of frustration, or my country, who is wearing a turban and who isn't. Our presidential campaign has turned into a mud slinging contest and I would rather see who is going to fix the mess we put ourselves into instead of hearing gossip. Now you would have to agree with that.

[vicky whiting, USA]

Richard, you silly,

Gas prices were my opinion as were the rest of the lot I mentioned. We are using more than 1/3 of our pay just to get to work. I merely spoke of my frustrations with my country. I cannot speak for the Prince or the Royal family, but it did make you think, now didn't it.

Over the last 20 years I have watched the media become brutal and seen them destroy people. Doesn't matter if a person is good or not, that is for God to decide. Aren't you bored by now with the media having nothing better to do than destroy the royals? After all, looked what happened to Diana. She was the people’s princess and she even touched our lives over here in the USA. Why would anyone allow this to happen to her children?

Her son's are trying being good human beings and its hard when you have flashbulbs in your face 24-7.

[priviledge]

For those reading - one has to remember, of course, that the life of the aristocrat, much like the life of the very brilliant scholar in elitist environments is a rarefied one all round (some scholarship environments are not so and the criteria that are applied differ, the coping mechanisms change). Of course, a prime example of "success" would be the bold and the beautiful brilliantly piroetting amongst the aristocratic class - it takes a fine mind, making fine choices to achieve that and one can admire it for its intellectual worth. That works, to an extent, and it works well because when the brilliant is no longer brilliant, or not told that it is special by all of its friends, then it shrugs its shoulders and nail paints and reads Aristotle in bourgeous cafes. Unfortunately, for most forms of brilliance, there has to be a "consolidation" point and a choice, and that is, ultimately, about knowing with whom or for whom one finally flies as oneself and finalises the process of maximising one's potential. The rest of the arguments are tripe, in intellectually progressive terms, I suspect, and in the reality of problematic management and the world of harsh brutality it is certainly all much more complex. I wouldn't advise the living with the murder part. It gunges up your work and makes you thick pile.

[Shefaly]

I think sending a Prince to a politically motivated war mixes monarchy (Bagehot's "dignified") dangerously with active and real politics (Bagehot's "efficient").

To some it may suggest that the Royal Family actually supports the war when they are never to take a political stance in public.

The best way would be to prevent the royals from making military careers, apart from administrative paperwork.

PS: He did say that he dislikes the shite papers print; I am surprised that both the elements got such little mention anywhere. The papers were in a bind, weren't they? Reporting it much would point the finger at them although 'I do not much like England' was screaming for the Sun's punny headlines!

[Bob]

Oh please. Harry needs to be reading Plutarch right now, but may be put off by your academic drivel. Three cheers for Harry!

[Tim]

Wow, Ms. Beard is angry; I thought the war in Afghanistan the "good" war?

[Luke Magee]

You say he would have been a better hero doing something humanitarian. How come then when he went out to Lesotho and did volunteer work and then came back and set up a charity to help Lesotho called Sembale, you did not do an opinion piece on it and the Times did not cover it in exhaustive detail? You say a Royal has a duty to like England. Why? He is Prince Henry of Wales and as such can quite happily dislike England like the rest of Wales, it makes him no less British.

[Oliver Nicholson]

Who says knitting and Classics are incompatible. I always knit my way through department meetings and two of my colleagues have now joined me - a lifted knitting needle is an excellent way of intervening on a point of order.

I am afraid I do not understand how the bravery of Prince Harry is meant to parallel the career of Germanicus. But I do know that what he has done requires courage I cannot even conceive of. And not the least impressive thing about him has been the fact that he and his father on his return both made the point (resolutely under-reported by the press) that if he was a hero so equally were the other 8000 folk serving Queen and Country in the East.
I think of the old man who taught me Latin and his descriptions of being an artillery subaltern on the Western Front with the duty of standing in the valley below his own guns, directing their fire, and knowing that if a dud fell short it would land on him.

One may or may not approve of the present wars or of the Labour politicians who got us into them. But if the latter are serious (as they frequently and embarassingly assure us they are) about finding the essence of Britishness, they could do worse than contemplate those loyalties which animate the men and women who are fighting them. As another Cambridge classicist wrote of men from Mary Beard's part of the world:
Get you the sons your fathers got,
And God will save the Queen.

(And no I do not see a witty subversive republican subtext in Housman's lines)

[Mark Donovan]

It is amazing, & sadly hilarious, that some of you Brits are still whistling "The World Turned Upside Down." It is not Harry's "job" to like England while the rest of you have the luxury to feel whatever you like; it is the right of Harry Windsor to feel whatever he damn pleases as a human being. And to think that a few nights of hedonistic pleasure in some night club is all he needs to get over the fact that his birthright is to live like the boy in the plastic bubble, shows how you do not recognise him as a free thinking individual. It also reflects how little respect you have for him and the Royals, by suggesting that going clubbing is all he needs to deal with his issues. So why do you want Harry and family to continue to take pounds from your purse and be the head of the country if you think so little of them?
Concerning that statement that intervention in Afghanistan is a folly, tell that to an Afghani family that lived through the rule of the Taliban. Ask the family of a child who died of a heroin OD. Whatever your feelings towards the many amoral policies in foreign policy over the past 6+ years, do not be so partisan that you do not see that the fight to free Afghanistan from the Taliban, and to not only help them establish a democratic government, but to help build a functioning infrastructure, schools, healthcare, plumbing etc... is an honorable and necessary one. We are helping them build a society. Ask them if they think that is a folly, or would they refer a return to the past.
As an American my sincerest heartfelt respect & gratitude goes out to every British soldier, every parent anxiously waiting for their child's safe return,and every family that has had to bury a loved one. These sentiments are now equally extended to 2nd Lt. Harry Windsor and his family just the same. Your great nation has fought along side our sons and daughters, and for that we respect, admire and thank you. Why do you not feel the same of your fellow countrymen, and hold a new respect for the first family?

[Larry L. Dreller]

Beard is disgusting!! Don't really care about her opinions--at all! What has she done that has been so uplifting? Alot of my friends have avidly been following Princess Di's fantastic children, and this rabid do nothing person sounds just like the scum Republicans in the States that belittle everything that is noble. Hats off to Prince Harry!

[David Lea-Smith]

I think Prince Harry and his brother deserve our pity. The so called 'adulation' Harry receives is akin more to pestering. I expect he would prefer a great deal less attention from the media and a chance at a more private life. Ultimately he could lead a spoilt life free of responsibility and certainly the obvious dangers faced in Afghanistan but the fact that he has chosen to serve his country in a dirty, unglamorous job is something that Harry and others in the army should be applauded for. As for the Roman analogies it was a different age and can hardly be compared to the present. All young Roman nobleman were expected to perform military service. They did not have the freedom of choice that Prince Harry does.

[Lester May]

It's a sad reflection on the people of our nation that those who wear uniform would die for the country - whether they like the country that much or not.

Yet the people who stay at home seem to carp about the military. I wish they'd just shut up and support those who serve in HM Armed Forces.

If you don't like the policy, then use your vote and use the democratic processes. Don't carp about those on the front line!

[Babak]

Question of the day:

Should the royals be able to do whatever they want?

[Steven]

Dear CHARLOTTEM,

Re: your comment that 'I also resent the comment made by Steven that Mary should 'Please stick to the classics and leave the real world to those with common sense and a proper education.''

I didn't actually make that comment - Tim Morris did in the comment below mine.

Good to know your Classics education has left you well-prepared to handle the onerous demands of everyday life.

[Richard]

"do some knitting"... "make some jam"...

I don't feel that those who respond this way to what they see as Beard's Nonsense make themselves seem very thoughtful commentators. (I seem to remember that there were rumours, when men waved banners saying "iron my shirt" at a Hillary Clinton rally, that the Clinton camp had arranged for this to happen, since they in fact made Clinton look good, in that people are more attractive when their enemies are clearly idiots).

Prof. Beard: I don't think you should retire from the world of public comment for a good long time. But if at some time in the future you were to turn [NB "remote future conditional"] into a Clapped Out Academic with Nothing Left to Say, I suggest you don't bother with jam or knitting (unless you really want to) and settle instead for the traditional and gender-neutral combination of food, novels and gentle alcoholism.

So next time somebody wants to tell the Prof. to shut up, may I suggest a non-sexist cry of "Beard, go and have a drink"?

Best wishes,
Richard

PS "homelessness, AIDS, lack of jobs, high gas prices, etc." - am I the only person to whom "high gas prices" seems oddly out of place in this list?

[Liam]

Is it really Harry's job to like England? Does his birth right completely eradicate any the right to voice his opinions? No.
And as for you saying he would have done well to aid some humanitarian struggle. Newsflash Mary. When you're in the army you do not get to pick and choose where you go, your are sent. That IS his job, and if you hear some of the comments from his commanding officers with whom he was stationed in Afghanistan you will understand that his work there was exemplary.
And about the paparazzi, do you think he's appreciated their constant baggering of him throughout his life? Their treatment of his mother before, DURING and after her death? Or are you one of these idiots who thinks its "our right" to intrude on the private lives of public figures? My guess is yes.
Harry gives the impression of someone who does not wish to simply conform because people like you believe as 3rd in line to the throne "it's his job."

[Babak]

Great article.

whoever put the royal prince on service with the gurkhas after their publicised oay disparity argument
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2775737.stm

at least had a sense of humour.

What amazes me is people's ability to seem personally offended by this article

[CharlotteM]

I think Mary has every right to say as she finds. As a classicist aswell I also resent the comment made by Steven that Mary should 'Please stick to the classics and leave the real world to those with common sense and a proper education.' 'The classics is the most proper education there is. At least she's not some dimwit who took a degree in media studies or something equally as embarassing. ALL HAIL THE CLASSICISTS!

[David John Marusza]

I agree; it is rather disqieting that he doesn't like England; it's even more jarring considering the evident Shakespearian overtones of sending playboy Prince called Harry off to a foreign country in order to make good...

[Disgruntled Expat]

Mary, Mary, Mary.

Get back to reading your dusty books on Roman history and stop trying to understand things for which you clearly have no aptitude whatsoever.

How dare you belittle a Prince of this country who has worked himself to the bone to achieve what he has. I've been an Army Officer myself, and I know just how hard they work, and how difficult it is to get through Sandhurst and beyond. He deserves your undying respect and gratitude.

No wonder he doesn't like England if people lik eyou are living there.

[DAN]

you're entitled to act as you wish with in the law, and so should harry. if you choose to right pompous articles harry can choose to behave like a slightly wild young man.

[kevan]

Mary - why don't you make yourself useful, go and knit something.....

[vicky whiting, USA]

Leave Harry alone!!! I cannot imagine being a royal and having my whole life public. To pull out of context in an article I read that Harry does not like England is ridiculous. Maybe he was speaking in frustration when he see's major social issues happening and the public are apathetic to the whole mess. We in America are the same way and yes, there are days I am not happy with my country either. Taxes, homelessness, AIDS, lack of jobs, high gas prices, etc. My frustration is not smeared on the headlines nor is the rest of the public there in England. He made a comment. We all do when we are frustrated. Let Harry and William grow up and discover who they are and stop being so rough on them. I am proud of both young men and I know their mother is smiling down on them.

[Robert]

There are some really off the wall comments today. I thought this was as usual a thoughtful piece, but nicely and lightly stated. It made me think about issues of dynasty, royalty, empire and so-called liberal intervention. These and other topical, but universal, issues were carefully handled in reaction to the surprising, but obviously micro-managed, announcement of the reason for Prince Harry's absence from the gossip columns of the tabloid press. This was a very provocative pieces of political manipulation, and I thought to contextualise it, as Mary did, through Roman imperial dynastic planning and military adventures made it much easier to understand. Those leaders who went into Iraq and Afhganistan without heeding the lessons of the past should not tempt all of us to do the same. I bet the Tiberius parallels could run and run.

[Olivia Rollins.]

To be frank I find this article offensive. As a woman myself and hoping one day to serve with the Brisitsh Army as a helicopter pilot, it seems upsetting that there is so little support for all our soldiers risking their necks out in Afganistan.. and from this article for what? Having been brought up with both parents in the army I feel I have experienced a great deal of what its like having family at war. Its not easy. I would like to say how much I appreciate both the Princes' roles within the Military and best of luck to them both at doing a damn good thing for their country.

[hortense vaughan]

Harry doesnt like England much because he want to impress Australians for his future application to be Australian GG; as GG Harry would have access to all the cheap duty free booze he could handle and be able to grope willing females fo the bunyip aristocracy and there would be free tickets to see the Rugby.

[Simon]

Mary, you seriously lack intelligence.

'Harry's 'job' is to like England'. He is saying he doesn't want that job. Whether you like it or not (i.e. live elsewhere in S Africa), it IS his perogative as to whether he likes that job and whether he intends to do it.

I dare say Harry has done more for the world in his efforts in the war than you have writing trash like this.

[Dom]

I think it's a sign of patriotism to have the guts to say that this murderous war is folly.
Biggest poppy crop ever last year...how many is that going to kill?

[Richard]

Come on, this is peely-wally stuff... Clearly some people are easily dismayed.

If we are to believe in professorial subversiveness, I demand out and out republicanism - arguably illegal: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_Felony_Act_1848 - and libelous smears on the parentage of leading royals. Rupert Murdoch's pockets are deep enough for the lawsuits.

So who's with me?
Long live the Republic!
Prof. Richard Hunter for president!
(If Australians not allowed, perhaps... well, I was going to say Germaine Greer, but that's no good, e.g. David Attenborough?)
We needn't have blood on the Mall unless it's strictly necessary.
The queen can live out her days in Balmoral with the deer and the salmon (surely a blessing for anybody). Prince Philip can work in a doctor's surgery in Tower Hamlets, to work off his apparent distaste for people other than white ones.

We have nothing to lose but our chains!

See if you can come up with a formula for the article most guaranteed to get the worms out of their holes: e.g. "Why we should send the Parthenon Marbles to Iraq"? Or you could try "Close down radio 3": that would probably do the trick.

Best wishes,
Richard

[Robin]

It's presumably this kind of 'sh*te' that Harry was talking about on his return from Afghanistan recently.

Only a dullard could write such a dithering piece as this.

He's done a good job and wants to go back. What is not to lke about it all? He's just a boy who lost his mum trying to grow up and do something positive.

Stick to making jam, Mary.

[Adrian]

Mary might patronize from the safety of her university rooms but Afghanistan is a tough place and the Taliban are tough fighters. Admittedly if you are inclined to think that way you might regard Harry as fortunate to have left now, the weather has just started to change in South Asia and soon Afghanistan will be very hot, dusty, flyblown and generally vile. Whatever Mary might know of the classical world anything east of the Bosphorus appears to just be a place to project her opinions and fantasies. I’m not a great fan of Edward Said but this would seem to qualify as ‘orientalism’.

[John Chuckman, Toronto, Canada]

Harry is just a slightly ridiculous young man.

He appears to have inherited his mother's looks and, unfortunately, her brains.

[anthony alcock]

Well played, Mary. Almost as much bile generated by this piece as by the one featuring Parthenon.

[Katharine Edgar]

It's interesting to compare Harry's rehabilitation with Princess Anne's. If I recall correctly she went practically overnight from 'Princess Sourpuss' to a latrine-digging humanitarian hero. Harry (being a prince rather than a princess) had to serve in the army to have the same effect.
Of course, to be fair to Prince Harry, he has already done the humanitarian thing, albeit in a typical Etonian-gap-year-(or was it just a few months?)-in-an-orphanage kind of way.

[White Rose]

Mary Beard? Who? Never heard of her. Don't know her! Don't want to. She seems to be in need of a good "Romanising". She's the original humbug.

[Keen Classicist]

Most of these comments are simply missing the point of this post. This is classic Beard stuff. She gets you to read it by saying something a bit outrageous (though is it so outrageous to take a bit of a swipe at all this ridiculous hype about the hero prince?) -- then you find that you're in the middle of the Roman empire and you begin to see why ancient history is relevant. Did anyone click on the links to Tacitus in the second part of the post?

This is the brainest blog out there. Keep it up Mary.

(And by the way... she did herself make the point that it was easy enough for her to comment when she wasnt facing the fire on the front line.)

[Cut-the-crap]

What is this Beard woman wittering on about, why is the Times running with such tripe.
Like him or not he wishes to serve and you have to say well done

[Steven]

So Mazza is a 'wickedly subversive' commentator? Gee, 'subversive' isn't what it used to be if a bit of royal-bashing-by-numbers gets the job done. I'm no fan of the royals, but if you can't respect a guy for putting himself out there where 99% of the rest of us have absolutely no inclination to ever go then you are no more 'subversive' than a particularly un-subversive cabbage. Rather you are quite sad and obviously in need of someone acclaiming you for being oh so very clever.

[Tim Morris]

Been away for a while. Have I missed something? At what point did 'wickedly subversive' become 'facile, sanctimonious spewings of the bitter and out of touch'?

Please stick to the classics and leave the real world to those with common sense and a proper education.

[RS]

To Mary Beard, I have to agree with all those comments above suggesting that your article is awful and ill-thought through. Harry saying he "didn't like England" was one of the most shocking things I expect ever to have come from a royal family member and I admire him whole-heartedly for speaking his own mind, instead of being a political puppet as you seem to suggest he should be. No Mary, it is not "his job" to like England as you so ridiculously put it. The whole point of Harry going to Afghanistan as you seem to have completely missed, was to illustrate that he feels he's no different to the rest of us, and quite right too, and hence if he wants to say he's not that fond of England, then so damn well be it. And if he wants to fight on the frontline, regardless of political misguidance (which is nothing to do with Harry), then so damn well be it. And good on him. It's ridiculous comments from people like you in the media (do you read the Daily Mail?), that give people like you such silly views.

[Mark]

It's reassuring to see Ms Beard has a solid grasp of ancient history.

Her grasp of current events is somewhat lacking.

[Peter]

Actually he said it was the newspapers he didn't like and the "sh***" they print. Strangely newspapers overlook that part of the quote.

[steve naive]

i'll tell you what the romans would do they'd invade another country for its resources whilst brutally murdering its inhabitants......i see nothing has changed then.

[Gary Fearon]

Alex got it right...crap article.

[klimt]

"Reverberations rock the walls, each ruin reels and sinks engulfed! Come, trembling aged feet, you must not fail me now. There your way lies: forward to slavery!" (Euripides, The Women of Troy)

The Taliban enslave, abuse and murder women who dare step outside the home with any thought other than their service. Their regime must not be allowed back. Human rights are equal rights for women. Well done Harry.

[Alex]

crap article.

[Jackie]

Prince Harry is in the invidious position of being 'damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.' He didn't ask to be born into the royal family, especially in the position of 'spare,' but has to make the best of it. As a young man with boundless energy, constantly in the media spotlight, he is forbidden, or criticised for, the usual exploits of the young. One place he can let of steam is by following an active, rather than a deskbound, career, and the armed forces are tailormade for him. He's universally acknowledged to be good at his job, and his men have nothing but praise for him. I just wish everyone would leave him alone to get on with it, but it seems its a vain hope, even here!

[Tom]

So, according to Professor Beard:
1. Harry should not fight for his country.
2. He should be more patriotic.
3. He should not enjoy his life while here.

I remember studying at Cambridge. This brings it back.

[Australianplonk]

Presumably the murder of Germanicus would involve loads of blood; pots and pints of it, yucky ejaculations (injections even) spreading noxiously through ceilings and floors? Must be ten times worse than any Britney hair shaving episode which, to be frank, for the bold and the bloody is a tiny pin prick on the horizon? Just thinking all of these things before having a dope using psrtie and running up the stairs with legalised drugs...

[Eugene]

That is why Bush Senior (see the Roman touch?) never sent ol' VV into harm's way. See? So stop criticising this wise dynasty,

[eyad]

i think that life of prince harry was very dangerous so i advice him to not repeat it to stay alive

[Antoninus]

As a late Roman reader, I enjoyed a lot many British comments here.

[patrick noctor]

God help those studying classics at Cambridge is all I can say

[Dean]

This is quite honestly the worst article I've ever read, 'something called a spartan vehicle' think that shows your knowledge on the matter!

[cathy hansen]

It seems Mary Beard has cast herself as Tiberius.

Naturally a professor in classics at Cambridge WOULD find the adulation of combat vets "hard to take" and less than honourable. Any service to country not PC approved by academia's armchair elites would hardly withstand the honors test. Why not send Mary Beard (teacher, feminist and female) to Afghanistan to pontificate her theories on paper and England will see if after 10 weeks she has nothing better to do than to SPIT sanctimonious asides at Prince Henry from the vantage of The Times in England.

Easy for Mary Beard to say IS right.

No wonder Henry would rather be in Afghanistan. England has become that place where only solitary confinement will "do the trick" and where it is one's "job" to "get on with it" (press S***s) and "LIKE IT!".
More Gospel according to Mary Beard.

[Edwin]

Harry is a noxious little creep; he was never properly investigated about the killing of rare birds on that estate; the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are the stupidest wars the British have ever engaged in, And yet, fair do's - Harry is doing what he ought to do. Has done the UK good in the Arab world as well, as people compare Brit royals with their onw ruling classes. But get them all home, please.

Prince Harry; Laptops; Roman Emperors and their offspring; all in one short article. Whatever you have been smoking, can I have some?

[Britishboringcorporation]

To compare Britain to the Roman Empire is wrong. The old cliche of Britain being ancient Greece to the US roman empire may be true since the US power today is similar to the Roman Empire.

Unfortunately Gordon Brown may be pivotal in relegating Britain to becoming modern Greece or Italy.

I don't blame Prince Harry for resenting his life in the UK. For all the money, prestige and other trappings,who would want Prince Charles'life (this is what Harry's seen of the future)? Waiting year after year for your old bat of of a mother to pass on the responsibilities of power.

Anything else worthwhile you try to do is mocked & meanwhile reverence for the monarchy is rapidly dwindling to an all time low. No thanks, Not a job for me!!!

[Michael J Lee]

I would like to send her - Mary Beard - to the front line - stupid woman!

[J Cline]

No, dearie, as a classicist you really ought to know better. The modern Roman solution would involve wiping whole pro-Taliban villages off the face of the earth with massive applications of ordnance, salting the earth so no poppies could grow there, and importing the Afghan survivors back to England as slaves.

Oh, we do seem to be doing the last bit anyway...

[Kevin Dunn]

What a smug, hypocritial and generally disgusting article! With people like you given prominient places in the media it's no wonder Harry is rerported "Not to Like England much."

[Norman Gee]

Mary,
have you ever thought that ridding the world of extreme terrorist organisations is a humanitarian project?
Or is that too esoteric for comment?
Harry is making a productive use of his time and developing a career in an elite unit for himself.One that Germanicus could have done with on his campaign.

[Steve Symmons]

It always puzzles why people assume that Roman history began with Augustus and The Empire (or Julius Caesar, at least). The Republican era lasted longer and was rather more successful in its outcomes. And a military career was an essential ingredient to political advancement (“Cursus Honorum”) regardless of what family connections one might have.
Now there is a parallel to consider…..

[Hugo Chav]

What nonsense! if you find all the price Harry stuff such a bore why write about it in the Times?

[Tom]

"whatever military folly we’re committing in Afghanistan"

*Whatever* folly? What would it take for a military operation to be worthwhile?

Does the author know what kind of world the Taliban want to try to create? The intellectual courage required to confront this truth might equal Harry's physical courage.

[arindam bandyopadhaya]

Robert Graves ascribes the mysterious death of Germanicus to the machinations of Empress Livia. Do we have someone similar now?

Regards

[HenryHand]

I think that you’re wrong to compare Prince Harry to someone in the Roman Empire. During that period, surely everyone in Italy actually had respect for those in power, whereas now, only those that read the glossies have any time for news regarding them. However, I think that now would be a good opportunity to mention that a play I once wrote as a post-graduate, observing the parallels of Present and Roman-day living, did compare the Emperor Constantine’s family to our current Royal Family. Nonetheless, I must say that your biweekly blog does keep me amused and brings new ideas to my mind about the similarities to our world from the ancient.

[anthony alcock]

Unlike Osama, Hermann actually took on Germanicus and his troops, but Hermann had the advantage of superior knowledge of the fighting ground, as Tacitus describes the swamp into which the Romans were driven "gnaram vincentibus, iniquam nesciis".

[abc]

Problem with the Germanicus party is that one ends up chasing shadows. Anyway...here's to managing hatred, Beard. Never realised it, or the jealous possession point. That's quite sad in so much ability.

[RichardH]

Come on Mary, be fair. Prince Harry is a young army officer who is obviously perfectly all right and, I suspect, good at his job when he is given something to do - and lets off steam rather too publicly when idle. In my view we have here a prime example of the modern hysterical, celebrity orientated, media in full cry.

You may think, as I do, that the fourth (British) Afghan war is a completely unnecessary and all round disastrous affair with no apparent purpose, as opposed to cooked up excuses, but it does not alter the fact that our troops have been sent there to fight and are doing so with considerable tactical success. The fact that strategically it can make little difference is not their fault but that of our abysmal politicians.

I f you should happen to be interested in the views of the troops themselves, have a look at 'The Army Rumour Service', otherwise 'ARRSE'. It contains a fair amount of fatuous material but, with a minimal amount of selection, you may find the most refreshing, down to earth and pertinent comment.

I must, of course, declare an interest in that I am of the generation that served in the army and made some of my longest lasting and most valued friendships whilst serving.

[Dorothy King]

Have to admit to not seeing the point of having a monarchy these days ... so sending the heirs off to war seems like a perfectly good way of getting them out of the way.

ANd since Fergie is so keen to talk about food for Weight Watchers in the the US, maybe she'd be good for feeding a few camps full of starving.

[The Worst of Perth]

I thought your Roman solution was going to be a crackdown on the press. Not that we're particular fans of Royals over here, but I'm just glad it's not me that has to go. Long may this new Germanicus party.
The Worst of Perth
http://theworstofperth.com/

[bobba]

I think Tiberius' role is sorted: Mohammed Al Fayed, of course!

[Peter]

Would there have been a Tiberius in this scene? From where we sit in America, Charles has never had all that much adulation to lose in the first place.
==============
Detectives Beyond Borders
"Because Murder Is More Fun Away From Home"
http://www.detectivesbeyondborders.blogspot.com/