Is anyone convinced by electric cars?

Following an article about the G-Wiz in Body&Soul on Saturday and my trumpeting about electric cars, I have received several emails pointing out that they do not deserve their squeaky green reputation.
Les Cowley says the following: "If the electricity they consume was generated purely from wind turbines or nuclear power then they would produce little CO2 emissions and other pollutants   
but, and it is a large but, in the UK they actually lead to additional electricity demand and use electricity made by not very efficient fossil fuel power stations.  The car might look very green but every time it is charged a power station somewhere conveniently out of sight and out of mind burns more coal, oil or gas and emits more CO2 and other pollutants."

Thank you Les - you’re not the only one whistling to that tune.

George Woods also tells me my enthusiasm for electric cars is misguided: “The electric car has a very low overall energy efficiency - from the primary fuel, coal or gas - of around 30%.    A small diesel car will be about twice as energy efficient and produce less than half the carbon dioxide per mile compared with the electric car. However, the electric car used in London is causing carbon dioxide creation at a power station elsewhere and this suits the London Mayor."

According to Jenny Urmenyi, the carbon footprint for a G-Wizz is little under half that of an ordinary car: “The batteries used are lead acid, which will deteriorate after only a few years. This reduces the range of the car until the battery is replaced. This is not only financially expensive but energy expensive as well. Further more, lead acid batteries are not particularly efficient energy storage devices, as they require about 40% more energy than that which is retrievable from them.
Whenever the subject of green energy is discussed, the energy used to make things should be included. Electric cars will normally be used in conjunction with a conventional cars and therefore the energy and the raw materials used to manufacture the car should be taken into account."

All of this tells me what a dark green bunch you are and how seriously you take vehicle emissions. I’m left looking a pasty shade of lime.

Comments

[Jim Whitton]

It strikes me that everyone is keen to use green technology as an excuse not to alter their lifestyle. An electric car means you can carry on driving - even if an electric car is not as energy efficient as it sounds. What happenened to going on two legs or two wheels?

[Ian Murdey]

Steps to health and/or ecological improvement are inevitably small. This does not mean that they should not be made however. If electric cars are in any way better than our 'usual' models then that's a step in the right direction and should be applauded.

Similarly, trying to pursuade people to use two legs or two wheels will not work if we take an all or nothing approach. For example, a change of behaviour on one day per week is a small change but a start and most people's behaviour change needs such small starts to become ingrained. Don't be so dismissive of small changes - remember many small changes add up to a big effect and there really is no magic bullet that will produce a big effect in one go.

[Keith Joyhnston, MD GoinGreen]

It is good to see that electric cars are generating real debate - something that was non-existent as little as a year ago!

I would like to address a couple of points raised by readers if I may:

1. The G-Wiz electric car is the most energy efficient car available in the UK today, consuming just one quarter as much electricity as a similar small size car with an internal combustion engine - so it is excellent at preserving scarce fossil fuels.
2. The issue of electric cars switching pollution to power stations just does not hold up to scrutiny. When charged using electricity from coal fired power stations (the most polluting kind), the impact of those emissions in a G-Wiz is a reduction of 74% compared to a similar size internal combustion engine car (independent research by Eco Lane Consultancy). Of course, when charged using electricity from renewable sources (as all our customers do, using either pure or partial green electricity, depending on the company and type) then the impact is to reduce emissions from 75% to virtually 100%.
3. At a time when we need to reduce emissions drastically (the smart money is now on 90% by 2030), electric cars offer the only affordable, mass commercially available solution - today, not at some distant point or place in the future (usually ten years if you listen to the big car and oil companies).
4. All our lead acid batteries will be safely disposed of and parts re-cycled wherever possible - this is our responsibility and committment. Later this year, lead acid batteries will hopefully be replaced with lithium-ion, which are expected to have a lifecycle at least twice as long, and possibly three to five times as long, and so will be better for the environment as less amounts of harmful materials will be used. The G-Wiz ac drive has been designed to be upgradeable to li-ion batteries, so customers do not have to buy a new car when this happens!
5. We and our manufacturer try very hard to be low carbon companies. For example the body panels of the G-Wiz are now made with 100% recyclable materials, something that cannot be said for 99% of all cars.
6. Remember, your choice of car has - with the possible exception of your home - a greater impact on the environment than any other choice you make as a consumer. Choosing an electric car enables you to do the same journeys, on the same roads, at the same times, with the same flexibility. The difference is that you are no longer polluting to an environmentally unsustainable degree, plus if you have switched from a petrol car, then you are (in London) likely to be saving at the very least £600 per month doing so!
So, it is not only smart and caring to be driving electric (for your kids, if not for yourself or strangers), somehow it seems to be cool as well. It's also a lot more fun to be at the beginning of something big like this, just ask anyone who actually drives an electric car!

[Andrew Harmsworth]

Oh good grief! Of course electric cars are a good idea - their motors are nearly 100% efficient! This compares to a typical petrol engine of around 30% efficiency. And electric cars will mostly be charged over night, when electricity is needed to be sold... so power stations don't have to shut down.

Anyone afraid of electric cars should watch "Who Killed the Electric Car?" on DVD. Nobody I've shown this film to is not convinced that their next car should be electric, or at least plug-in hybrid.

Electric cars are the future - not these silly hyrogen things!

[Andrew Harmsworth]

Additional: lead acid batteries are being replaced by NiMH and Li-Ion this year, so why moan about lead acid, an old, but cheap (critical point) technology?

[Anna Shepard]

Thank you Keith, that's really useful information and fuel for a decent defence of the electric cars when next someone argues against them.
One question: when you say all your customers do use pure or partial green electricity, what do you mean? How do you know how your customers are charging their vehicles.

[Tim Kevan]

far more important than eco-cars is the fact that for the first time, it was reported over Christmas, an inhabited island has finally submerged below the sea. Can't understand why it hasn;t received more coverage. I've put some links on my blog at http://timkevan.blogspot.com/2007/01/first-inhabited-island-falls-into-sea.html .

[Les Cowley]

The 74% reduction in emissions for the G-Wiz appears to be based on quoted CO2 emissions of 63g /km when charged from coal generated electricity. It certainly has a low carbon footprint. That is not the same as the 'zero emissions' or 'gadzillion miles per gallon' claimed in some quarters for electric vehicles generally.
The figure appears to be based on the maximum range per charge - in the stop/go and frequent accelerations of everyday urban driving the range would be rather shorter and the corresponding CO2 emissions/km greater.
We all want to decrease our CO2 emissions in the most effective way possible and for that we need truly comparable information in order to make informed choices. Petrol and diesel vehicles have to present their CO2 emissions/km as generated over standard urban and combined driving cycles run under closely controlled conditions.
The same driving cycle information could usefully be presented for electric and hybrid vehicles using the present mix of UK electric power generation as a fair basis.

[Keith Johnston, MD GoinGreen]

Regarding your question 'how do we know our customers charge using green electricity', it is because they tell us they do and much debate ocurs during the purchasing process. Strictly speaking it may be true that a minority of our customers do not charge using green electricity as we do not make it a condition of purchase (maybe we should), however people who buy electric cars not surprisingly care for the environment and apart from the choice of car, the choice of fuel is the next major consideration on both cost and environmental grounds.
For info on green electricity just google 'green electricity' or visit http://www.greenelectricity.org/renewables.html for another good starting point. Basically it is available just everyhwere these days, and depending on whether you want to be very green or slightly more green, you can pay as little as no premium at all to switch supplier.

Regarding Les Cowley's comment that 'figures are based on maximum range per charge', this is indeed true. So if you drive faster you will get less range and pollute more, just like any other car. The point is, there is no other car available that is sustainable at an affordable cost. Simple. The rest is detail. Go drive electric, it's fun and your kids will thank you for it!

[Les Cowley]

“The rest is detail.” Only with the detail can we properly compare different options on the same basis and make effective quantitative rather than qualitative contributions to our environment.

[joe]

I suspect that however inefficient the electricity generator actually is, it has to be far more efficient than extracting and transporting a bulky liquid and burning it in millions of small engines.

Can someone tell me how George Woods calculated the comparable efficiency of a diesel compared to an electric? Did he take into account the energy used in the distribution of petroleum, for example?

[john gregory Flinn]

It really is interesting to see these diverse technologies for electric cars etc., developing as an attempt to reduce the planet's 'carbon footprint' (I think that's the correct cool jargon!).
One imagine's the community of Engineers and Scientists could be excused a little self-promotion here. Instead we hear the vocal vacuities of a few Celebrities having to be redressed, as reported in Wednesday's Times by Mark Henderson.

The posters' calculations about the efficiency, or whatever, for these vehicles may have neglected the amount of nuclear electricity imported from France which, incidentally is going to increase. Here, in France electric cars can charge-up with electricity, 80% of which is nuclear generated, and could rightly feel smug compared to the coal and gas burning in Britain.

However it is quite amazing how quickly this 'carbon footprint' ruse has achieved 'received wisdom' status, and is now completely politically correct! Ref; my post under “Fancy whacking this guy....”of 14th December.

No doubt Denial of Carbon dioxide's major role in Global Warming will soon be a 'thought-crime'; people will be shunned, have their bank accounts stopped, be denied access to the media, brought to court for aggravated Denial, lose their jobs, have their businesses disrupted or even closed, services withdrawn and generally classed as beyond the pale. Oil firms, power generators, holiday package businesses, 4x4 owners, and others related to travel will receive organised protests, threats and even wilful damage, with the police turning a blind eye on the grounds of 'Green Relations'. There will be investigative journalists searching out companies that overstep the green footprint, and receive awards for their 'courage and acumen'.

Ian Pearson, 'CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER' (are they serious, it reminds me of Labour's Minister for Drought in the mid-70s?) accused Ryanair yesterday, 5 Jan 2007, of not taking the carbon cause of GW seriously enough. He is reported to be standing by his accusations in today's Times - so, its starting already!!

One day even the Hague will figure in sentencing corporations, individuals or nations for Denial, and send in armed investigators to root out non-compliance.
It could just develop like Denial of the Holocaust! With those oxymorons in Greenpeace and the FOE pursuing alleged green criminals - I mean, after all they are a threat to the whole planet are'nt they.......?!

[Rupert]

I think the point about electric cars is missing the point somewhat. What is needed is some real changes to install a public transport infrastructure so that the number of individual car journeys are curtailed and a more efficient less polluting form of transport is used.

There are already car clubs springing up, this mixed with a sustainable public transport system is surely the way to a greener society.

That and generating clean energy from renewables, whether they are wind turbines, solar power or bio-diesel

[Stephen Betzen]

I agree that we all need to 'learn' to walk and Bike more... unfortunately this change on a systemic level is not going to happen, so the development of cleaner alternatives is necessary.
I am a huge fan of the ever elusive electric car... I feel the PR engines of the auto and big oil sectors are heating up over it becomming a possibility. They want to distract us with hydrogen cars, hybrid cars and anything to keep electric cars from hitting the roads. Suddenly I am seeing more and more misinformation (like the stuff that started this thread) about electric cars. They will play to our environmental side and give us selective facts. ie. forgetting to mention that even though we talk about coal plants being inefficient/dirty (compaired to other power plants)... our cars are still worse (much smaller power plant?). I hate coal... but our cars are more dangerous.

Who killed the electric car touched the nail are the head (I wish they actually hit it)... you can't make as much money on an electric car. They need fewer repairs, no oil changes, fewer checkups, they don't need new infulstructure (like hydrogen stations), don't pollute nearly as much, they last longer and they don't need gas stations.
With new battery technology, allready existing, they can flash charge in 10min. This is being applied to the new cars from pheonix motorcars (light battery, fast charge, high capacity, long battery life).

Walk, use transit and ride a bike if you can... but we need electric cars. (I'm in Texas...we need them too)
I'm done.
Stephen Betzen

[Alasdair Philips]

My stepdaughter has a small single seater electric car that she has had for 8 years. http://www.3wheelers.com/cityel.html
It has been excellent for her and she has done about 14,000 local miles in it. However, it uses 3 x 100Ah lead acid traction batteries, that now cost £150 each, and we have only managed to get 12 to 18 months useful life out of a set (and we have tried various makes, bought "the best" and have been careful with the charging regimes used). So, about every 15 months, 3 large and heavy lead acid batteries need to be sent off for recycling. This is a large extra energy and pollution cost to running the car.

[grahaem brown]

Anyone without off-street parking, or living / working close to one of the cark parks where they can be charged does not realistically have the option of switching to an electric car.

How can London cities be persuaded to encourage them more by installing many more on-street charging facilities?

Is there an "Interest Group" to promote this?

[Terry Farrell]

The only place an electric car makes sense is in a congested city where pollution is a problem.

Everything else is hogwash.

The inefficiency of lugging batteries around, of generating electricity, carrying it to the consumer to charge those weighty batteries far outweighs any benefit.

Purchasing 'green electricity' is only good until the demand for green electricity out strips supply. Then Good Energy has to meet the excess demand by purchasing from other non-green supplies.

Cycle or walk. Work from home. Use public transport. Send children to local schools. Shop smartly.

[Ruggero Cordani]

Dear Anna, all well & good with this battery car business,but I think the choice in the UK is limited, -& expensive. You are asked to pay around £9-10,000 for a vehicle with very limited range, carrying capacity, & no mention of all the facts! How are the `dead` batteries to be dealt with? present environmental laws say that lead-acid batteries must be disposed of via approved centres.

Lithuim -Iron present an even greater danger - IF irresponsibly disposed. Also Lith-Iron cells are very expensive, Citroen USED to offer free replacement, however as the cost of these cells is nearly equivelent to the price of a new vehicle, they ceased this offer.

I would also point out that while you are driving side by side with vehicles which have undergone mandatory crash test, the G-Wiz has not. Should you be involved in an accident, how would you fare?

This technology will only spread IF we are offered a vehicle at reasonable price, with decent range, & practical carrying capacity.

I`ve looked into this tech, having got rid of a decent Diesel car, I do find these cars, at present, unattractive.

Also how long will the free road tax, free parking, last?

[Mal Stein]

Interested to see the general debate on electric cars.

We are holding an exhibition / seminar on sustainable engineering and part will be a carshow featuring very nearly No Internal Combustion Engine cars - hybrids, car share, electrics

As we are outside of London the congestion charge should not distort the economics - come along and see for yourself?

[Mal Stein]

Interested to see the general debate on electric cars.

We are holding an exhibition / seminar on sustainable engineering and part will be a carshow featuring very nearly No Internal Combustion Engine cars - hybrids, car share, electrics

As we are outside of London the congestion charge should not distort the economics - come along and see for yourself?

[Bria Lauren]

Mine's not electirc but a petrol/electric Hybrid and complete heaven! It's saving us £2000 p/a in petrol, has a tiny road tax, no congestion charge for London and does NOT need charging from the national grid. Drives like a dream and you can feel very smug sitting in traffic jams, completely still emitting NO fumes. The down side is breathing in everyone else's fumes but I won't go there as our other car's still a BMW!!! I

[dr venables preller]

At the present time hybrids are the most practical eco car, with reasonable range, higher energy efficiency than petrol or diesel alone, and a demonstrable commitment to the cause, so you’re on the right track Bria.

Battery technology has a way to go before the power storage problem is solved for electric only passenger vehicles. I understand The joint high energy battery development project between Anglo American and Siemens (The Zebra Battery) ceased or was put on hold a few years ago, which is an indicator of the difficulties faced.

Meanwhile, incremental improvements to existing technologies offer a greener solution than in the past, with higher energy use efficiencies from lighter vehicle construction using composites and alloys, and more aerodynamic shapes. These constitute an evolutionary step to the time when electrical storage to a multiple of current energy densities becomes available. The best of current small cars using biodiesel used for dedicated capacity working is also progress, in a sense.

The best market force to drive forward solutions must be cost and taxation. Hybrids currently being produced for the Californian market, where the changeover is driven by government quota could be affordable given appropriate tax incentives.

On the subject of aerodynamic profile, it always amazes me how commuter trains, frequently with an end profile which increases energy waste from air resistance to at least 35% of traction power have not been given the ‘Eurostar’ treatment. The cost benefit would be enormous just from a front-end removeable fairing, fitted to the carriage end.

Time to write to the train companies, Anna?

[Mom]

If I were buying a new car, I would certainly get a hybrid. My 20-year Jetta finally got to the point that I did not want to start spending money on it! A young boy bought it to renovate! He was excited about having a car made before he was born!! I have now started walking and taking public transportation. It is one car off the road, not much, but certainly a start!! My children and grandchildren will not let me get a bicycle, as the traffic and the driver's manners leave a lot to be desired. So I will walk from now on. I would take trains, if here in America they would get serious about them. We have all this land, and no tracks. Just stupid. I personally would love to have monorails all over, up in the air!! What a good view. It will happen long after I have beamed up! Cheers!

[rob matthies]

In reply to Alasdair Philips' posting, would THIS kind of 'no-cost battery' (a reuse of batteries from the recycling scrap pile) solve your concerns?
http://climate-change-solution.blogspot.com/

[Tom]

I agree with Ian in his earlier post. I think people are all too quick to be dismissive and negative about attempts being made to curb people's carbon usage. Ok green cars might not be 100% perfect, but as he rightly says, a little today is better than nothing at all. I've found in the past that green types tend to be a very pessimistic and negative 'bread' maybe that's what makes them 'green' in the first place.

[Bria Lauren]

Good point! I know what you mean about the pessamistic attitudes. Its almost as if the more miserable one is about it all the more that person must know the 'truth'. Of course they are correct about the realistic out comes of all of this if things don't progress but I really think that things can NOT improve without relentless positivity (which of course the pessamists will misinterpret ignorance!!)

[MIke Bibby]

Electric vehicles are only economically viable where governments (i.e. taxpayers) subsidise them.

Ignore all the claims about 'pollution-free' electricity generated elsewhere; even if the electricity WAS not only pollution free but also cost free they simply don't make sense.

Why? Simple, they all need a new set of batteries far too often - even lead-acid ones will cost about £1500 every 3 years (or £500 a year). This equates to 100 gallons of diesel, or around 4000 miles a year - more than you will do in an electric runabout.
So even with free electricity, its more economical to use a small diesel runabout. The only reason electrics look reasonable is the subsidies the taxpayer stumps up for - free road tax, free parking, (even free electricity in St Albans)

[Mekhong Kurt]

While acknowledging there have been a vast number of either misunderstandings or outright misrepresentations regarding any number of green issues, that moving towards a greener lifestyle has a might strong attraction in many ways.

For instance, I live in Bangkok, where practically all interior lighting is fluorescent -- more efficient than incandescent. But I use only the lights I need at the moment.

Also, some parts of the year, even in my rather hemmed-in residential compound (an apartment complex), the shotgun arrangement of my front room, hallway, and kitchen allow me to open the front and rear doors and often have a breeze, which, together with using a fan, let's me avoid using an air-conditioner -- avoid it a lot.

The climate here in Bangkok is such that much as I love a hot shower, I virtually always can shower without ever turning on the water heater (a wall-mounted electric one that itself doesn't turn on except when the switch is on and water is flowing, an arrangement far more efficient than the gas hot water heaters I grew up with in America.)

Further, I also love to luxuriate in the shower. But now I'm in and out, ASAP.

While I do take taxis almost daily, first of all, I don't own a motor vehicle at all, and haven't for years, and, secondly, I virtually never travel further than just under a kilometer from my home, as practically everything I need is within that distance from where I'm sitting right this moment. So, in terms of vehicular carbon footprint, mine is relatively small. And it helps that more and more taxis here are going to more alternative fuels that do indeed lower their impact.

All of these steps have proven easy for me to adjust to, and have saved me a fair amount of money on water and electricity bills. (Nothing I use at home is gas-powered.) And I *hope* it has significantly reduced my own carbon footprint. even global warming is nothing more than a mad scientist's nightmare (which I don't believe for a second it is), living in heavily-polluted central Bangkok makes me quite eager to see *anything* that results in cleaner air. That's from a two-pack-a-day smoker, too, for those unfamiliar with just how bad air pollution can be here.

No, I'm not a tree hugger or anything like that. I do hope I'm taking a rational, well-measured course that benefits me personally -- and those around me.

[Terry de Winne]

How about using waste electricity to charge the electric vehicles? That which is required as an off-peak demand load for the generators and currently (no pun intended) used to light vast stretches of motorway and street lighting.
It then becomes truly carbon neutral, as opposed to requiring additional generation capacity.
The reason why off-peak supply is not favoured by suppliers? A constant load cannot be guaranteed. Not a difficult problem for a fourth-former, but beyond the capabilities of government because it means negotiations with (now) privately owned generators and a capital cost for control systems.

[Francene McClintock]

The electromagnetic fields in these electric cars are very dangerous. Get an EMF meter and check out your driving environment before puchasing. Biofuels made with algea and renewable electric source (100% biodiesel) or ethanol with synthetic cellulose or extracted cellulose and renewable electric sources seem to be the way to go (diesel or alcohol designed internal combustion engine).

[Alex Stall]

The issue is that the underlying technology for electric cars as well as other forms of energy are outdated and not very efficient. Until someone comes along and find a better way to power cars, we will be stuck in this rut for a while. The key here is new technology in the energy field, whether it be new batteries, better generators, or more efficient alternative forms of energy production.

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