The Bishop of Carlisle says the floods are a judgement on society for - among other things - tolerating gay unions. The Bish of Liverpool, James Jones, takes a milder line and just links them with global warming guilt, as if no weather system had ever got stuck in a groove before. The word "opportunism" springs to mind, and is one of the mildest which do so.
Opportunism may be far too mild a word.
Posted by: Doug Chaplin | 1 Jul 2007 15:41:34
How does the Bishop of Carlysle KNOW that the floods are a punishment from God?
Plato's dialogue Euthyphro comes in handy here. Does the Bishop know because he's a bishop, or is he a bishop because he knows? The answer (which Euthyphro, the expert in piety, couldn't fathom)is 'neither', because the Bishop simply does not know.
However, if the Bishop insists that he is right, then he is faced with a further problem, because punishment from God presupposes intervention in human affairs by God. But if God has to intervene in creation to 'put things right', then even the good Bishop will have to admit that this is an imperfect world, and not the product of intelligent design.
Charles Gidley Wheeler
Posted by: Charles Gidley Wheeler | 1 Jul 2007 16:14:53
Libby, somehow you expect this kind of thing in the USA but actually this is not surprising news given that this man said to Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight that the cause of homosexuality was devils residing in the rectum! You couldn't make it up, could you?...well he could. Apparently bishop Dow has expressed his sympathy for those who have been hit by the weather, but said that the problem with "environmental judgment is that it is indiscriminate". Some god he worships then - not only vindictive and random but also pretty inept and careless about his targets - a divine car-bomber! Of course it is a famous ploy of religious control freaks (Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are also on record for saying similar things about 9/11 and New Orleans) to say god doesn't only target sinners but also those who 'tolerate' sinners - even those who don't know anything about it. "Lord, lord we did not know", they cry. "Well, you know now, the Lord answers". Really?
I have a booklet written by bishop Dow - Explaining Deliverance, published by Sovereign World, Ltd. It is a priceless farrago of superstitous rubbish that this man purports to believe in. For example, some of the clues to look for in a person who may be possessed by demons include:
'irrational dislike of God's ministers', 'a strong sense of the presence of dead relatives', 'a sense of fatalism', 'repeated choice of black clothes' (catholic priests, then?), 'anorexia', 'striking cases of disease', 'the community (or national history) into which the person was born and brought up', 'experience of rejection', 'miscarriage or abortion', 'involvement in religious cults or sects'. 'dysfunctional or oppressive family features', 'use of certain alternative medicines'. This is just a selection. At the end of the book he tries to deal with the three reasonable objections to his kind of 'ministry': "Belief in evil spirits is a way of evading personal responsibility for evil..."; "Belief in evil spirits fosters a superstitious and primitive approach to the world"; "Deliverance ministry is dangerous and has been known to be followed by suicide or violence".
You might well exclaim "Oh, for Heaven's sake...!" Libby.
Posted by: Christopher | 1 Jul 2007 18:40:35
I must say that's impressive in a bad way. I thought Christians claiming large scale tragedy as a sign of God's retribution was confined these days to the US.
Good to see muddled reasoning isn't a US monopoly after all.
Posted by: Flavius Iulianus | 1 Jul 2007 19:08:53
The Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association calls the bishop "a Bronze-age primitive" and says he has a superstitious mind-set. They ask why, if it is Britian's approval of homosexuality that has caused the floods, far more catastrophic floods afflict Bangladesh - which is fanatically anti-gay.
Posted by: Barry Henderson | 2 Jul 2007 09:20:39
I think the recent floods are God's answer to all those prayers for rain offered up last summer during the heat wave. He is not bound to answer our prayers immediately, you know!
Posted by: Geoffrey Smith | 2 Jul 2007 13:04:52
Speaking as a Catholic-Christian I am dismayed by the Bishop of Carlisle's comments.
He is known for wacky views - particularly on disabled people.
It reminds me of some of the irrational views by muslim leaders who said the Tsunami was God's wrath.
Today's Genesis reading on Soddom and Gomorrah shows God is a God of mercy.
The God of the New Testament is love and mercy.
Typical evangelical nonsense from Carlisle's prelate frankly.
The evangelicals often misunderstand suffering.
Suffering is a mystery and cannot be explained.
Yet at the same time God is present in suffering and our suffering can bring us closer to God.
Jesus, on the cross, shows this and this is our model.
Please, Bishop of Carlisle, do some basic theology!!!
Posted by: Christopher | 2 Jul 2007 17:17:31
Are there other Anglicans out there who find what our bishops say is nearly always embarrassing? OK, when they say sensible things they are not reported, but there has been some very deep thinking over the centuries about natural disasters and a loving God, so perhaps we could have the benefit of some of that now? Or a message of sympathy and an encouragement to help?
Posted by: Frank Upton | 2 Jul 2007 17:27:49
The flooding is worse because of all the houses built on flood plains.
This is caused because of overpopulation, and the requirement of housing for the overpopulation.
Posted by: janh | 2 Jul 2007 18:22:22
There appear to be two Christophers posting here since I did not post the comment immediately above (2 JUL 2007 17:17:31) but am responsible for the ones before that.
Posted by: Christopher | 3 Jul 2007 01:55:19
"Embrace the risen Christ, or prepare to burn in Hell for eternity." Sounds like blackmail to me. “Floods are God’s punishment” falls into the same category. What kind of clown spouts that nonsense? Guess I’ve answered by own question.
Heaven for the view, Hell for the company.
Or, try Buddhism for a religion (more philosophy) that doesn't try to lay on a guilt trip its followers.
Face reality guys, thanks to Chuck Darwin, Christianity's washed up because it can't be reconciled with advances with science and technology. You are still confusing religion with belief in God. Organised religion; namely Mother Church is power politics. To choose blind faith over logic and reason you have to be terminally naive, gullible or American.
Posted by: Andrew Milner | 3 Jul 2007 02:28:48
Last year's Gay Pride in Brighton was a beautiful day, warm, sunny and temperate. Does that mean God approves of the gays in Brighton but not those in the midlands?
Libby, aren't you embarrassed to be part of this nonsense?
Posted by: Eric Blair, Brighton | 3 Jul 2007 09:03:15
Perhaps, Christopher (3 July 2007 01:55:19) if you were considerate enough to let us know your full name, such a confusion would not arise?
Posted by: Geoffrey Smith | 3 Jul 2007 10:34:30
We all have doppelgangers, Geoffrey. Once on Ruth's blog I confused you with the great BBC gardener of the same name, but not you said that composting meant rubbish.
Posted by: Christopher | 3 Jul 2007 12:22:38
"We all have doppelgangers, Geoffrey".
- Christopher ---, 3 July 2007, 12:22:38
How true! Once, when researching my family history, I investigated my own birth record. I discovered that in the same quarter of the same year no less than 14 births all named Geoffrey Smith were recorded. And I thought that I was unique!
Just goes to show that even a surname like Smith can be misleading.
Posted by: Geoffrey Smith | 3 Jul 2007 15:50:07
Eric and Barry, I am with you. It is classic lame-brain theology but sadly neither surprising nor unusual.
I am confused as to why we act when Islamic preachers preach hatred and do nothing when Christians do the same.
But is the same god who is supposed to suffer with us and offer comfort when our children are born with disabling diseases or are horrifyingly snatched from their beds? or are they also being punished for random (alleged) sins by unconnected people? Make up your mind, god-squad- remind me again why good people have to suffer?
As for why anti-gay Christians have such clear views when they have no gospel to quote on the subject and have to resort to the Jewish scriptures plus bits of St Paul- dont get me started...
Posted by: Perfectbod | 3 Jul 2007 20:47:23
Why is everyone always puting down things they do not understand. If you all were realy seeking God the living true God many people would be afraid to put down people like Jerry Farwell (Rest in Peace)and any human being on earth. No one is perfect, pray for one-another and seek God. Love thy nieghbor as thyself. What is wrong with this. LIBBY is not God because she studied all religions, it makes her a person who seeked worldy knowledge. The same way people worship the church and its systems,instead of GOD, is the same way Catholics worship the Pope. I am a born again Christian and when God said thy shall have no other gods before me(exodus 20:2)kjv and Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in the earth, beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.(Exodus 20:3)KJV GOD means it. So please stop putting down people who you dont know because you do not agree with many Christians and non-Christians that homosexuality is OKAY. Its a Sin like alot of things. Your not realy disagreeing with anyone but God+Jesus+Holy Spirit=God. So no matter what anyone says, you will all find out the truth. We all do not worship the same GOD, the SAME Religion nor believe the same thing. Someone has to be right and ALL find out at the end of thier lives journey....so pray your worshiping the right GOD....
Posted by: Tonya | 4 Jul 2007 01:10:30
Um, didn't that God bloke tell Noah, after the flood, that the rainbow was a sign he wouldn't use floods to punish us wicked worms any more?
So, Bishops, explain please why the floods are a result of our wickedness, gayness, whateverness?
Posted by: Jeremy Poynton | 4 Jul 2007 04:14:03
So does this mean that during the monsoon Indians are very bad and arabs are good all the time!!??
Posted by: James Rose | 4 Jul 2007 06:51:15
I've had a request from some friends in Kentucky, USA, (incidentally they're gay), asking if we could send them over a few immoral Brits as they're in the middle of a severe drought.
Posted by: Helen | 4 Jul 2007 07:56:08
The bishop's comment is a perfect example of why the delusional should not be given positions of influence in society.
Posted by: Sam Tana | 4 Jul 2007 12:46:33
Other Christopher posts a rather ill thought out post about Christianity being washed up due to 'Chuck Darwin,'
Christianity and science are not incompatible. Pope John Paul II accepted that evolution was a reality and science cannot somehow replace religion.
Science cannot explain why we are here, cannot explain the purpose of existence and cannot explain the human condition beyond how we are made up physically.
Science also demands interpretation and is not simply 'facts' - we don't simply have scientific 'consensus' on everything.
There are many good scientists who are Christians and it was a priest Father Gregor Mendel who discovered the genetic laws of heredity
Natural disasters cannot be explained. However, the suffering God on the cross is always present at these times.
Many draw great comfort from it.
Posted by: Christopher R | 4 Jul 2007 17:32:03
I guess this god doesn't like people in Oklahoma (just north of Texas) either, since some of them are under water. But Oklahoma is not known for its tolerance of gays. On the other hand, the weather seems to be fine in San Francisco....
So the bishop's god not only has the morals of a truck bomber, he's also got lousy aim. And is worthy of worship why?
Posted by: Tina Rhea | 4 Jul 2007 21:37:09
Hmmmm, I'm an Anglican who lives in the Buckle of the Bible Belt (Texas) and we've had two weeks of flooding, too. Perhaps I'll write to the good bishop.
But I must point out that God IS involved in natural disasters -- through the volunteerism and outpouring of assistance from people of good faith, particularly when the government mucks up emergency response. :>)
Posted by: Julia Langdon | 5 Jul 2007 08:09:33
Oh, and Helen, it's raining in Kentucky. Friends there (not gay, not inbred even!) reported that they've had quite the downpours, right after the roofers had removed all of the shingles from the roof of their house. Ooooops!
Posted by: Julia Langdon | 5 Jul 2007 08:13:20