United > England

I know this post is going to provoke a lot of anger and criticism, but it needs to be said. Feel free to throw your comments at me about being unpatriotic or fickle, but this is how I and many other of United's hardcore feel.

I used to love following England. I was gutted when Southgate missed his penalty in '96 and just as hurt when Argentina scraped past us in 1998. However, since then many United supporters have given up on England. This is not because we are glory hunters who won't support a team who are not winning anything, as many uninformed like to think, it is simply because it has become very difficult to do both.

The dilema for me first started when Wembley used to echo with anti United songs at England games. And songs about the Nevilled even when they were playing and setting up goals at the time. It got to its worst for me when I was punched for not 'standing up if I hated Man U' as England played Cameroon in a pointless match. Then trying being a United fan when England played at Elland Road and the locals had David Beckham going near the crowd to take corners.

And the David Beckham issue was the final straw for most. Watching United suffer from Bryan Robson's injuries on international duty was one thing, but seeing our hero and a great player be torn apart and vilified for a mistake was another. Every club that came to Old Trafford booed his every touch and sang songs about him and his wife for two years. The hype before his first game back away at West Ham was like nothing else I have seen. The newspapers giving away dartboards with his head on and behaviour of football fans around the country was crazy. And yes, I do believe the fact he played for United played a large part of that. No one noticed that Batty and Ince had missed penalties, and when Rooney acted far worse to get sent off a few years ago the blame was all on another United pretty boy- Ronaldo- than it should have been. And when thousands of West Ham/ Leicester/ Spurs/ Chelsea/ Leeds fans sing "In-ger-lund" songs at Beckham and denounce his citizenship, the only answer United fans had was to chant back Argentina. And it stuck. The fact England fans suddenly loved Beckham again 2 years later only adds to the amusement factor and irony- talk about fickle. But whilst he was public enemy number one we stuck by him, and he paid us back as we lifted the treble and he had the season of his life.   

So I won't go to England games any more, either to sit amongst all the new fans at Wembley who barely make a noise apart from the boo the other nation's anthem or to spend two days causing trouble in Eastern Europe. And I cannot say I miss it at all, I was always ashamed of England's away support anyway and the large amount of scum who filled so many of the places on the terraces.  I don't deonunce anyone who does follow England, nor the United fans who are angered by their fellow Reds who walked away from the national team, it is just a personal choice.

I love being English (and British), I follow the national team in so many other sports with pride, but because of ths history in the last decade between United and England I made a choice, and it is club over country every time. I'd rather United won the reserve league than England won the World Cup and sent the country into fake hype overdrive with all the bandwagon jumpers who love football every four years for a few weeks.

So for me, this weekend is a welcome break from travelling all over the country to see United and I'll be in new York totally care free as England stumble through their qualifiers and the same idiots that sing songs at Rooney for being fat every week suddenly lap him up and hero worship him because his shirt is not red.

 

Comments

[Stan]

Simmons : Thank you for illustrating exactly why Oli is right.....

[Joe]

I have never and will never support England. I feel in no way patriotic, so obviously this is a major part of it. I also believe that certain clubs always have less of an affinity towards the national team - these are generally the larger Northern club. There are many in the North who always have and always will feel closer to their Northern roots than to any arbitrary idea of Englishness.
Also, as mentioned in the article, the attitudes of many of the fans when travelling abroad has never created a particular desire to be associated with them.

[Brian]

I'm a Palace fan, I would take promotion to the Premier this year and England failing to qualify for the world cup now.

I would take promotion and a guarantee of 4 years in the Champions League for England never qualifying for either Euros or World Cup.

I suspect most fans in our position would do the same.

[Harry Boulton]

Chris Gerrard, I'm with you. Even as a Utd fan my country has always come first. That's not a slight on my club but my club support came from the fact that my family came from Manchester. However, I was born, first and foremost, in England. AS a born Englishman, I cannot begin to even comtemplate not supporting my country.

[Ken Moore]

Both club and country are important and always have been. However, if I was playing football at a high professional level and was given an either or choice, it's got to be club......right?
Money talks, and you know what walks.

[Rob Hillery]

I am a massive Man United fan, love the club always will. The England issue is not problem for me, I don't put either club nor country first but treat them as eqaul. When it's International break I look forward to England, don't matter who they play. The fact that other fans sing about our players does'nt bother me I sing about Steven Gerrard when I go to Old Trafford but when England plays I support him and admire his ability as a player. It's all part of the game, I think because you have actually been abused for being a United fan at an England game you feel the pain when England play. I want England to do well this week, get 6 points and look forward to the Premiership again.

[Si]

Manchester United are bigger than England. This article makes good points, and the barrage of anti Unitedism that has followed just demonstrates that Manchester United provoke discussion. People can't resist talking about them because, whether you want admit it or not, they are a successful, well run club. I'm proud of United and everything they stand for and although I am proud to be English, I simply don't have as much passion for the national side.

[Chris Gerrard]

I had this discussion with my housemates last night. No matter what, England will come first!! The three lions to me as fan massive, we need a succesful side and slowly we are buliding to that!! Yes the players don't seem to care but if we get behind them not on there backs then it will be a different story!! Take 6 points in the next 2 games that is more important then the way we play!! I am Bristol Rovers Fan, and my support for them will never change but being an england is different!!

[Simmons]

Seems like your simply a glory hunter and not a true supporter. Your lack of enthusiasm for the national side is as a result of Utd players getting stick at times is childish. Just because Utd get spoiled with trophies more often than England has success doesnt mean to say they are not worth supporting. Word has it that most of the '66 squad played for West Ham not that I'm a supporter. Guess your just upset that 80% of the national side these days are londoners and so what. We are all English even the Manfoolians. It's about time we got the pride back into our national game and quitted the several divides in order to make England great again. COME ON ENGLAND!

[Hugh]

some great arguments oli. but i can't comprehend ever supporting club over country. having said that, inverness caley thistle FC are nowhere as good as Man U, and England are nowhere as loved as our national side - Scotland. Maybe Man U fans should support Fergie's and Fletchers's homeland as a substitute! come join the tartain army as many of my english friends have already done.

[Leigh Vernier]

Fact: few Premier players are locals. Witness Berbatov, Tevez, Vidic.
Irony is, fans are supporting a location concept (Manchester) that is totally false!
Given all their French players maybe Arsenal should change name to:
"Derriere-n-al"?

[Oli]

The same minute's silence that was cut short after 27 seconds because (a minority of) Ingerlund fans ruined it? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article3321474.ece

[Alex]

I don't understand this, who could forget the impeccable minutes silence that the England fans gave on the 50th Anniversary of the Munich disaster.

[Patrick]

To the article author, a bit harsh about International football. I mean, anyone who saw Euro 2008 knows it was a great tournament, with lots of modern, inventive football. And it seemed to be played in a good spirit.

The anti-England mob certainly put forward a highly articulate argument don't they?

[Tracey]

Hey Oli, this article is the gift that keeps on giving eh?

[Arul]

England fans have very less morals. How could you actually boo the other team's National Anthem? And besides, they don't have an ounce of gratitude in them for all that United players
have done for them over the years. Who was England's world cup hero? Sir Bobby Charlton. And the last time I checked, he was a United legend.

[Mike]

Im man u, all I care about is man u england come a distant second, aside from the fact there really boring and frustrating to watch I just dont feel the same way about england as I do UTD...maybe because Im from the peoples republic of mancunia rather than england??

[Neill C]

I'm from NI and it seems like i have been to more Engerland matches than many football fans in the north of england (2 World cup qualifiers home and away NI outsung England in both-obviously) what i dont understand is how england fans can spit bile at united players such as rooney and then cheer him on when he takes off the red for white?

[Barrie Collins]

The greatest honour given a sportsman is to be selected for his country, whether it be for tiddlywinks or professional football. He should NEVER decline this honour, nor should his team try to prevent him from accepting it. Country over club every time!

[paolo secondo]

An easy prediction: as soon as England play well, entertain and win, everybody will turn country over club!

[fergies taxi for smoking bulgarian]

as much as i hate to say this i actually agree with the united fan author - i have been a city fan for 40 years , i have only ever been to 1 full england game (at old trafford 3 years ago v northern ireland , it was like watching paint dry ! ) and several u21 games over the years at maine rd and old trafford . having lived in the manchester area all my life i have never felt any true affinity with our national team - the fact that internationals only moved north because wembley was being rebuilt is probably something to do with it , apart from the world cups from 1970 onwards (i was too young to really appreciate 66) the 73 qualifier v poland and euro 96 i have never had more than a passing interest in their results . as far as i am concerned there is no football on this weekend and i will probably take advantage of the break by clearing my loft (rock n roll or what ? ) i am far from unique , i have work colleagues who are season ticket holders at united and everton and they feel exactly the same ?

[Oli]

Yes Pippo, when Smith (and Rio too) came to United it took time for them to win people over. But when they showed us total commitment they won the fans over. I don't remember a time we vilified and hated a player on a Saturday (including singing songs about their family), loved and applauded them on a Wednesday, and then went back to hating them on Saturday again. And then repeating that pattern every few months.

[Pippo]

I would imagine that you used to hurl abuse at Alan Smith when he played for Leeds, and then probably stopped doing so when he played for Utd. This is the same as Liverpool fans slating Rio when he plays for Utd and then singing his name when he plays for England.

That's the way football is.

The Utd 'hardcore' need to get over it.

[Shreyans Chatur]

a very good article i must say....
i agree comletely wid u on dis one.....
england fans have always had a dig at united players who play for england.....
many of them have been hypocritical.....they wud love to see rooney play for england but they will boo him or abuse him when he plays for united....
i have also made the same choice.....united over england...anytime and evrytime....