The chain of events that led to Vettel hitting Webber

 

Times Online: Lewis Hamilton under investigation by FIA

This clip is worth studying. It shows how Lewis almost overtakes the safety car and then pretty much stops. Webber is then in danger of overtaking the race leader and brakes on the inside at which point Sebastian goes into the back of him. (Vettel was watching Lewis and thought he had a problem and must have been expecting Mark to accelerate ahead on the inside whereas, in fact, he braked).

Comments

[Jose, San Diego, CA]

After looking at this video quite a few times, I have a clear opinion. Vettel is the one to blame. Whatever he thought about LH, he should have kept some distance to Webber. They were not racing, they were after the SC!

However, I didn't like the way that LH drove behind the SC. But not only after FA accident! Even the first 20 laps! He was constantly brake-checking on FA. I've read about him keeping his brakes in working conditions, but no other driver was as exaggerated as he was.

And then there is the issue about the FIA regulations. If a driver has to be NO MORE THAN 5 car lengths behind the previous car (or the SC), during SC racing, I don't think LH was within that distance right when the accident happened. It would be nice if the FIA enforced their own rules.

Jose, San Diego, CA

[Joaquin]

From Spain:

Lewis did wrong, but I think the FIA have no problem with Lewis. F1 is a business and, for them, if Lewis win this year they will be so happy.

However, if Hamilton win this season, he will have been the best driver, no doubts.

Joaquín

[Augusto Baena]

Nice video, Ed

This led to a discussion of 7 hours after the race which could have implied Lewis being disqualified, a fact that was silenced by British press and exaggerated by Spanish press.

Anyway, from FIA regulations:
"40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially
drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the stewards.
whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane."

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/1754DB4574B7A2C0C1257329003642F0/$FILE/2007-F1-SPORTING_REG_13-07-2007.pdf?Openelement

I think Lewis clearly broke this rule. Perhaps not only this time (arguably), but this time it led to an accident.

I am not stating Vettel is non-guilty, I am saying Lewis is.

But FIA seems to be hyper-sensitive to some facts and so lenient on others that it undermines its own credibility (should there were any left).

Regards

[Leonard]

My comment is off topic being about the Newspaper article on Todt's interview about Stepney. A person who was ambitious for a job as high as Ross Brawn's would not behave the way Todt puts it - not after 15 years. What does Todt take us to be ... idiots? We have all worked in corporate environments and a guy who is shooting for a job that high is going to be as calm as he had been for 15 year. Todt, you are lying!!

[Alfonso]

I would like to say "thank you" to the fantastic team of Mc Laren.
I would like to say thank you with tears on my eyes to Ron Dennis specially.
Thanks to do not care absolutely nothing about the FA health.
The second worst accident of his life, he crashed at 160 km /h frontal against a wall, and no MC Laren people did care.
The tv did not show exactly the moment of the hit against the wall, then the team did not realize the importance of the accident.
he had to go to hospital for scan, and at night blue
spot appeard on his skin(I do not the english name for "moratones")
Ok Ron wants the team not talking and marginating to Alonso, I understand Alonso is for him the guilty of copying the Ferrari´s car, but the life (he could have died) is the more important thing.

[nico nuzzaci]

Maybe when Mark Webber said, “This is what happens when kids with no experience come in [to Formula One] and they f*** it all up.”, he was implying on the kid in front of him and the kid behind him ;)

But as the story goes, it's the kid behind him who got penalised.

[Leonard]

Augusto Baena - MY FRIEND PLEASE WATCH ED'S VIDEOS FIRST!!! This kind of behavior really pisses me off! We are not reading your comments because we have nothing to do.

[Antonio Xixon but in UK]

No comments. White and in a bottle...Lewis even opens wide in case that Webber was going to do the same as Vettel, so he knew he was pushing. If the stewards didn't find it punishable, fine, but then they should apply the same criteria next time, just to avoid favoritisms.

[karl]

Hamilton was guilty.It is clear.

[javiervivaespania]

AUGUSTO BAENA
Thank you for your clever comment, very well documented by the way.

The video probes that Hamilton was the guilty of the crash. He almost stopped the car. Rule 40.7 IS VERY CLEAR. Vettel was a bit inexperienced by getting distracted and fooled by Hamilton but THAT IS EXACTLY what Hamilton was trying. Has anyone seen our Champion Fernando Alonso doing something similar? He is a gentleman.

This a another document that I am putting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlATUojgCFc
and it shows how Hamilton takes the turn not so wide behind the safety car when he knows that the other cars following him are not so close to each other. He is a very tricky guy.

[LSG]

They are really funny this guys of the FIA.
They put a penalty to FA of losing five positions in hungary for breaking no rule; and LH is breaking them during the whole season (f.i. the crave helping him in Germany, playing behind the safety car causing an accident...) and has no penalty.
Its clear who is the one who have to win the championship. I dont know if its worthy to wake up so early this weekend to watch this english circus..
(Also Its also clear I am another "blind dissapointed fanatic" from Spain)

[Luis]

Jose, you´re absolutely right. I believe LH is a great driver who will fight for the championship in the coming sesson, and a lot of people in Spain believe so. However, I also believe he has been helped during during the sesson, and this is another example. Help from FIA, help from his team (extra laps, strategy, FA´s setups ...)Maybe Ron belives to provide the same opportunities to both drivers means "let´s cover the gap between the two drivers helping the rookie". Ron, it was only a question of time, there was not need to hurry. Look at the greatest, Senna, Schumy, Prost, they all started in modest team, they took some time to learn, and then they became WC. As Jean Todt said, the main responsible of the sitaution in F1 is Dennis

[Nick]

Lewis did nothing wrong, im pretty sure there is also a rule saying that under safety car, a driver cannot overtake the SC. So Lewis was slowing down to not overtake, and he was very close to the SC when he started to brake. Webber followed by braking hard, in an instance Lewis, Webber and the SC were in the same section of track. Then Vittel comes flying in. I think he may have tried to predict what would happen. But even if they had started moving again quicker it wouldnt have mattered, Vittel should have slowed down.

[Rob]

Watching the footage it seems to me that Hamilton is within 5 cars length of the safety car at the time of the accident. Firstly the safety car has exited the corner and will have been accelerating away. Furthermore Hamilton did not seem to break heavily, you don't see Webber catching up with him suddenly. Instead he simply dropped back by virtue of taking the long route around the outside of the corner whilst Webber largely caught up by coming across the inside.

Only after the collision between Webber and Vettel does Hamilton drop further behind the safety car and that can be interpreted as trying to avoid the incident as Webber's car is pushed past him.

[Carlos]

What I see is Lewis intentionally almost overtaking the SC then pulling hard right (to make sure the guys behind him do not pile up into him) and braking hard knowing the two guys behind him will have to do the same with less reaction time causing them to pile up. He even chose the best spot to do it (which after twenty times of roundy rounder gave him enough time to figure it out). Smart cookie. Definitely not Championship material. Nasty.

[dauda epoakara]

I swear, if Lewis gets disqualified or docked points as a result of this incident based on this video evidence, I will forever stop following F1. The guy was WAY OFF the path of the 2 cars that collided BEHIND him. THEY were the ones driving WITHOUT DUE CARE AND ATTENTION. Monster sour grapes from Webber! Lewis Hamilton has outdriven all the other "experienced" drivers in F1 this season and it's so easy watching the Japan race that the guy deserves to be World Champion this year. He was the ONLY driver who ran a FLAWLESS race while the others (including both Ferrari drivers and Alonso himself) could barely stay on the track. Give respect where it is due!

[Philip]

Hamilton had to take avoiding action as the safety car had slowed too much in the corner. Hamilton was smart enough to stop hitting the safety car and managed to control his car from sliding off the track. But Webber was going so fast that he was within 5 car lengths of the safety car while Hmailton was taking evasive action. Vettel was even closeer behind Webber. Both Webber and Vettel were guilty of driving far too close behind the leading car. Hamilton is completely blameless here.

And the maximum 5 car lenghs rule is OK on a dry or dryish track. But in the torrential flooded conditions, it is ridiculous and should be increased to 10 car lengths.

[PV]

Taken from 2007 GRAND PRIX OF CHINA
THURSDAY PRESS CONFERENCE:

"Q: (Ann Giuntini – L’Equipe) To Mark and Sebastian: without any desire to get into politics, would you say that Hamilton’s manoeuvres in the last race were not very far from being unfair or not under the agreement you generally have?

Sebastian Vettel: In the end it was my fault for crashing into Mark’s car, so I’m not here to blame anybody but I think it’s clear that the rhythm was not there. In the end we are all sitting in the same boat. It’s raining, there is a safety car for a long time and it’s quite complicated to keep the temperatures in the brakes and avoid glazing them. But at that point I was just distracted, you could say. I was looking to the right and I was sure he (Hamilton) was retiring, there was no power anymore and yeah, all I can say is that by the time I looked back I was already in Mark’s rear end so… It’s not to blame anybody but for sure the reason was the rhythm was not there.

Mark Webber: I think he did a shit job behind the safety car. He did a shit job and that’s it. He spoke in the drivers’ briefing about how good a job he was going to do and then he did the job the opposite way, so we know for next time, it’s no problem."

For your information: last news indicate FIA is investigating again Hamilton's maniouvres behind SC.

[Paul from Boston]

Lewis did the same thing many times through out the race. He was trying to force Alonso to pass him by pulling a break job behind the safety car earlier. This is insane, especially in the rain. It is not surprising there would be an accident as a result. F1 is allowing him to get away with murder in these races.

[junaid]

Is there anybody else who wants to urge the FIA to get the safety car driver docked points for his part in the incident? Clearly he was driving too slowly for the other drivers to follow without hazard....

Its just another racing incident in my opinion. If it was Schumacher leading the pack (or even Albers), followed by say, Heidfeld and Raikkonen.....???

Some of us are looking for a scapegoat - like the insurance refused to foot the bill - others are hoping to give the Ferrari drivers and Alonso a better chance to deny Lewis his maiden World Title.

Although i do feel for MW and SV, but thats racing i guess.

[Alonso'smiracles]

Lewis won't be punished. The only possibility for Lewis to be punished from FIA would be that he would have crossed his car in front of the SC, got out, jump on top of the SC and pissed on its windshield. Even though, if he would have done so while waving a Union Jack, maybe FIA would consider not to punish him

[Lewisfan]

I'm sick of the criticism of Hamilton - he's proven himself to be a masterful driver, and people are just unhappy that he's doing so well. Maybe it's because he's black but if they deduct points from him, it will be the most disgusting thing in the history of the sport. He has proven himself from carting to F1, and yet the nasty snipers still get at him and say he doesn't deserve to win. Everyone was in the same circumstance last week, and just because Hamilton didn't crash or retire and proved a master on the wet, it just upsets some people. How sad. I really hope Hamilton doesn't get penalised. At one stage, someone was even trying to blame him for the Kubica touch. I am so enraged, I can hardly breathe!!!!

[Eduardo]

What else do FIA need to punish his behaviour? FIA MUST punish his non sportive an illegal procedures.
What did they do with Schumacher on Monaco in 2006? What did they do? I´ll tell you: punish his non sportive an illegal procedures. Same rules, same attitudes, same penalty.

[Mark]

It seems to me, Hamilton is following the safety car offline, presumably to keep out of its spray so he can see where he is going. Vettel and Webber are following the safety car (in its spray - clever boys?) but they are taking their lead from looking at Hamilton's car.

Hamilton is accelerating and decelerating behind the safety car (everyone does this behind the safety car all the time to warm brakes and tyres and, I presume, so that the cars behind can't get a run on them on the straight?)

Hamilton accelerates and then brakes so that he does not pass the safety car (which he is obliged to do) and then Webber brakes too, for the same reason. Vettel is too close, can't stop and hits him.

What is the problem? Webber would have done better to have driven offline out of the spray of the safety car and Vettel should not have been driving so close.. simple.

[IDR]

I posted this on Permutations on Shanghai:

"The maths has his own paradoxes but nothing compared to F1 and FIA."

And now, L Hamilton behaviour in under investigation.

Maybe some FIA members are blogging here, taking some evidences from the video Ed showed us and some ideas from Augusto Baena regarding Art. 40.7 of FIA regulations!

[Jean Moseley]

I see no more to this video than a racing incident, an unfortunate chain of events brought about by a combination of diverse factors. To single out Hamilton and even entertain the notion of penalising him is to me staggering. But then again not entirely surprising as this season the amount of bad blood, puerile bickering, moaning and whingeing in F1 has scaled new heights. As a lifelong fan it sickens me.

[Mark]

Luis, you mention Hamilton was 'helped' by McClaren to Alonso's detriment with the extra lap strategy.

Well Luis, you need to carry extra fuel to do more laps, so what you are actually saying is that Alonso was unable to drive a faster qualifying lap than Lewis even with a couple of laps less fuel.

So what exactly is your point? Hamilton out-qualified Alonso, he out-raced him, he beat him, and more pertinently, he finished the race.

I thought Alonso was 'keeping his info close to his chest now and that was why he was winning'? So why did he get outqualified and outclassed at Japan?

Give credit where it is due.

[Pravi, Stuttgart]

According to a German press report – http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sport/formel_1/hxcms_article_507382_13987.hbs

“..In the F1 drivers circle there are suggestions about the existence of a “LEX HAMILTON”. According to Information filtered out by Renault - The race commissioner (Whiting) ordered Heikki before the Re-Start, not to drive too close to Hamilton. However, it was clear that it was not Heikki driving too close to Hamilton but rather Hamilton’s fault as he was driving so slowly”

There is no smoke without a fire – In the same way, the British press has condemned Alonso (without clear proof) for being a cheat and cleared the Team of all wrongdoing (also without proof), I hope they will this time follow the “smoke” principle, when it’s a British driver who is at the receiving end.

P.S. please also quote what MW had to say about Hamilton’s part in this accident, I am sure you know it so why don’t your print it, Ed?

[Lewisfan]

I’m sorry, but this is pure nonsense. Hamilton is allowed to back the pack up however he sees fit, and to claim that he was guilty of “dangerous driving” is insane. Driving off-line while behind the safety car is perfectly within the rules, whatever the reason for doing so, whether it is done deliberately to put your opponents off or not. It is the responsibility of the other drivers to ensure that they don’t have an accident, not Hamilton!
And what is this about rule-breaking in Germany? If a car is deemed to be in a dangerous position and has kept its engine running, the marshals are allowed to return it to the track to rejoin the race. That is in the FIA rules, and whether the car is in a dangerous position or not is down to the judgement of the stewards, whose decision is final. Suggesting that Hamilton “broke the rules” is simply yet more idiocy.

[Maverick]

Ed..
This is a nice video....as it shows the chain of events tht happened within those decisive few seconds. Wht i observe is tht Vettel was clearly guilty of crashing his car to Webber.Now..if we look at the events backwards...we notice tht Vettel crashed because Webber suddenly hit the brakes hard..and in the given scenario..it was not easy to look ahead and react cos things weren't tht visible....so the crash. Now, Webber had to hit the brakes hard cos he wanted to avoid overtaking Hamilton suddendly under safety car...and why the overtaking situation came at tht point for Webber...its because our little boy was playing around with his brakes( tht he claims ) and in doing so..he almost overtook the safety car and thus to avoid he took a different racing line and went way towards right.So..basically it all started because of Hamilton's poor driving behind the safety car.I'm sure tht's not the way to lead a race behind a safety car Mr. Rookie..and Mark's comments for Vettle holds true for Hamilton as well...and i bet..had this been done by Schumacher...all the world wud have come down on criticising his dirty tricks...but hold..its Lewis this time..who is bringing big bucks for F1..so the entire world including FIA is behind him to see him win...even if it takes ignoring incidents like these..bending the rules....alas...we F1 fans have to live with this now.

p.s : Where's Andy G....we r missing his technical insight :)

[richard boyce]

What would his motive have been?

To make sure Raikonnen moved up two places, scored more points and retained a chance of the championship?

[Allman]

The rule is quite clear and the video speaks for itself. LH should be punished. Ed has been calling other drivers names during the whole season and now that he has seen his beloved LH behaving in worst possible way he's unable to give his opinion. Incredible.

I wonder why such a nice guy (If you read the reports in the British media you could think he's perfect) put in danger the life of other F1 drivers acting like that.

[Jesús]

Crystal clear for anyone but the habitual blind Hamilton fanatics.

[G Neal]

If you study the film, LH does not brake sharply at all, neither does MW.

Vettel has admitted he was not looking and although undoubtedly, LH slowed down, it was not an erratic slam on the brakes.

So, MW drives for Red Bull, Owned by the same bloke who owns Torro Rosso. And who supplies Torro Rosso's engines? Yep, good old Ferrari. Seeing as FA was out of the race, the only driver to benefit would be.... Kimi Räikkönen. Nice one Ferrari but there just are not enough degrees of separation.

[John Mason]

I have watched the video with great interest a number of times. It is clear that Lewis was trying to maintain the correct distance behind the lead car and so he slowed. He also took care to move across to the inside of the corner so as not to cause the following drivers to collide with his car - which could have spelt the end of his world championship. No doubt it was the drivers following who were to balme for the crash. There was plenty od space for them. I am sure that this will be the outcome of the enquiry.

[Peter Friedrich]

The video makes it absolutely clear: Hamilton caused this accident by ignoring the rules (a stupid mistake, but nevertheless). Still that doesn't mean Vettel was innocent.
Hamilton should lose his points and be punished like Vettel in Shanghai.

[AndyC]

The Red Bull PR machine has slowly woken up to the idea that it's not good to have two of their drivers bitchslapping one another in public, so they have to find someone else to blame, ie Hamilton. Note it's taken them until Thursday to do this. If it were a serious protest it would have been lodged on Sunday night.

Anyone who saw the race will know that Hamilton was at times having trouble keeping behind the safety car, so bad were the conditions. He kept coming round corners to find himself too close to it, and slowing right down. Erratic/inexperienced yes, wrong in any way, no. The only thing that would have been a no-no is if he had been deliberately brake-testing, and why would anyone do that under a safety car when leading? The guy in front is the guy in front and if you're the one behind you have to look where you are going. I'd rather say it's an argument for not running races behind a safety car for lap after lap.

[Neil McIntosh]

Lewis in exceptionally poor driving conditions did what he could to staying intouch and within FIA regulations as concerns the safety car. When we was in danger of over taking the safety car he pulled out of the way of the following cars and they ran into each other. It is as simple as that. It a combination of poor driving conditions and in experience of Vettel and perhaps LH, but not worth penalising either.

[Kathryn S]

Two opinions after watching the video many times.

First off, Hamilton's claims that Mark Webber was "all over the back of him" do not seem to apply at this particular time in the race--and if, as Lewis said, he radioed that Webber should be asked to back off...it appears that Webber did.

Secondly, it seems that, unless Webber knew Hamilton was going to slow down to a near stop, there was no chance that Webber was going to avoid passing Hamilton. Even if Vettel hadn't smacked him, it appears Webber would have HAD to pass Hamilton under the safety car and thus been penalized. The ultimate screw job.

Sure does make things very, very interesting.

[Igor]

Lewis is guilty. He is not driving properly behind SC (he almost overtook it a few times during GP). However, in my opinion, Vettel could have avoided hitting Webber.

[LWS]

It was FA, not Hamilton. The SC was there just because FA crashed.

FIA should punish FA (all his points and all the points of the next season).

And the british media should state (again) how bad is FA, the man who crashed his car just to put Lewis' victory under suspect.

[NSP]

Interesting points of view, but you're missing the obvious question: What did Hamilton have to gain from trying to 'trick' Webber and Vettel into an accident, when they were acting as an effective buffer between him and Raikkonen? If positions had ended as they were, Raikkonen's challenge on the WDC would have been over.

Sorry to disappoint the anti-Hamilton mob, but Vettel had simply put himself in a position where he denied himself any escape route when Webber braked hard to avoid passing Hamilton under safety car conditions (itself an over-reaction: given the conditions, it's highly questionable whether he would have been penalised if he'd allowed Hamilton to repass at the first opportunity).

Yes, Hamilton goes wide and slows, but if you let the tape run on, Raikkonen does exactly the same in the preceeding corner without everyone behind tripping over themselves.

A 'racing' incident, pure and simple.

[Maverick]

Ed...
I really like tht this blog has life.Look at the readers posting and actually interacting with other people...and then u respond to my queries...( You corrected facts in ur post " Out of the mouth after my remarks"), earlier you had posted on Massa when i had requested....and other small things which u have done for others as well...its like 2 way communication..which is great !!!
Thums Up to you Ed.....keep this gud work going.... :)
Already looking fwd to ur next post.

[Pablo B]

Watching the video is clear that Lewis didn't only cause the accident; he also violated the rule 40.10
"...Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it."

But could you really imagine the stewards sanctioning to Hamilton?

I couldn't

Bets are admitted

“An FIA spokesman confirmed that the stewards were looking into the matter.
"New evidence has been brought to the stewards attention and they are currently investigating the matter," he said.”

“The Webber/Vettel accident was not caught on camera by Formula One's official coverage,”
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62978

If the youtube video is the "new evidence", Which evidences had they for punishing Vettel so fast?

It seems that punishing Vettel is cheaper than punishing Lewis, which is not a novelty for my, neither a surprise, only a fact that brings some new light on the unfair behavior of the stewards

“Tost (Toro Roso’s team principal) said he was spurned into speaking to the stewards after being made aware of a Youtube video of the incident behind the safety car when his driver Sebastian Vettel ran into the back of Mark Webber.”
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62981

I guess that the less unfair scenario that they can imagine is to remove Vettel punishment. But nothing will be made to "the untouchable one"

Regards
Pablo B

[Leonard]

Going by FIA's recent attitude towards McLaren, i am almost sure that the investigation will find him guilty and he will be punished.

The rule for 5 car lengths will apply to all drivers behind the safety car, starting with the much complaining Webber himself. Erratic behavior will at least be defined from this investigation. If the definition does not ban warming tires and brakes, they won't nail Lewis on that.

I don't think Lewis was dangerous to the other drivers, considering after all that he is allowed to use the whole of the road. We will likely see a refinement of the rule to provide for a driver avoiding dangerous maneuvers from another driver which was what Lewis will argue he was avoiding from Webber. Besides the 5 car lengths are supposed to be APART not necessarily BEHIND, so Lewis driving aside the safety car might technically be acceptable, since he was a fair distance away from it. But by the time Lewis's argument gets here, he will clutching at the straws.

[Pontus]

What Lewis did was WRONG and should be taken away his victory for driving his F1 car with no respect for the SC nor the rules for being "safe" on the track! Wide over the track, almost passed the SC, slowing down to almost a stop... I am a McLaren fan since 1984 but rules are rules, and Lewis did wrong - disqualify him for his win i Japan or let him not start in Shanghi!!!

[JOrge]

Interesting. From the FIA press conference:

Q: (Luc Domenjoz - Le Matin) Fernando, in Japan Lewis was quicker than you in qualifying. Do you think you have been treated in a fair way by the team or could maybe the team favour Lewis by making subtle changes to your car, like tyre pressures or wing settings?
F Alonso: Difficult question... I will not answer.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/10/6924.html

[xema]

press is doing so well with Lewis....I think the world championship should be given to them!!!!!

[Bruce]

He goes wide, stays near the safety car, the other two should be concentrating but seem oblivious. Annoying but they only have themselves to blame.

PS How come the Times is suddenly so popular in Spain? Very odd or even suspicious, particularly as it only involves Vettel, Webber and Hamilton. It seems like FA fans share the same whinging traits as their idol.

[Elizabeth Burgess]

Of course, an alternative explanation is that Hamilton finds himself nearly overtaking the SC, has to slow to avoid doing so and runs wide in the corner entry. When he does so, Webber is caught out, goes to the inside to avoid hitting Hamilton and slows. With Webber on his inside Hamilton can't turn back into the corner without risking hitting Webber so has to run even wider meaning a sharper slower turn to avoid running off the track, as soon as Hamilton has the car straight, he boots it to catch up with the safety car. Have a look at the relative positions of Hamilton and Webber at the point Hamilton might otherwise have turned in to the corner having already run slightly wide to avoid hitting the SC. If Hamilton had turned in at that point there would have been an very high risk of his being collected by Webber.

It's just a classic racing incident cars bunched up behind the SC, poor visibility and everyone jockeying for advantage. You might as well ask why Webber was running needlessly tight behind Hamilton, and Vettel behind Webber?

Frankly, I can't remember such a potentially memorable season being so utterly ruined for the spectator by ridiculous whining off track by various teams/individuals. Maybe it is time to give up on F1 and just watch MotoGP.

[Fernando]

I think Lewis was driving erratically behind the SC.

I recognize that this opinion is biased: a Lewis drop in the grid will increase Fernando's chances in Shangai and a few hopes for the title will appear again.

But I really think that his driving behind both SC was against regulations.

If they are not going to punish Lewis, this re-opening of the case may be one of the reasons they call it the F1 Circus

[Andy]

Hamilton came into the corner too fast and had to brake and move to the outside otherwise he would of rammed the safety car. On that part of the track he could of spun out if he had to accelerate harder and then saw Webber coming up the inside, so he had to continue off line. Vettel was driving too close in awful conditions and should of seen a big red flashing light hadn't moved away in front of him. Any punishment, like to disqualify Hamilton should of happened on the day of the race and it looks like no one complained then. He didn't brake test Webber like he did earlier with Alonso, so he will probably get a warning at most, anything else then who can trust FIA when they didn't penalise Ferrari for an illegal floor in Australia.

[the Monk]

looks to me like Lewis realized he was in danger of overtaking the SC and slowed down a bit .We are talking about a wet motor race not Sainsburys car park The others are nowhere near him .how good was MW that day ,he had puked in his Helmet not an ideal condition to be in in a wet race .All these hot shots just cannot believe a rookie can beat them especially a mixed race one .

[James]

Classic F1 stitch up this one. While I think it was just a racing incident brought about by severe weather conditions plus inexperience of a couple of the drivers thrown in, there was no rule breaking here and the assertion that Hamilton did this on purpose is just bizarre given he had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

My prediction? Lewis will keep his points but will be docked 5 or 10 places on the grid for China. That way, the FIA can be seen to not be favouring Lewis. Oh, and that should also give sufficient opportunity for Alonso and Kimi to close the points gap for the all important final race F1 showdown which Bernie craves. You heard it here first, sports fans.

[Carlos B.]

Bruce, what are you talking about mate?

just read FIA regulations in regards of this:

Article 40.10 of the F1 Sporting Regulations states: "The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind him. Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it."

the rule is so clear that explaining it is simply pointless, is now a matter for the FIA to decide whether LH deserves punishment, though just over the last couple of years i have seen drivers punished for a lot less

(Alonso in Hungary 06, Alonso in Monza 06, Kubica in Japan 07 for provoking Hamilton spin-off...)

i think the question is not whether Hamilton is guilty or not, the question is what is the penalty that fits the crime, i guess stripping him of his victory may be too harsh (and if they did that, the FIA people may just not be able to put a foot back in UK), though we must consider that Hamilton's actions cost Webber and Vettel a likely podium finish.

[Marc]

Let me put it differently, if Lewis would have staid the 5 lengths as is stated in the rules, Webber did not have to slow down abrupt and Vettel would not have plunged into Webber.
In other words Lewis' driving has caused the accident, and next let's review the starts of this year where Lewis more than once changed directions!!!

[luigi]

let´s see it in this way as a touchstone, is not this video just a great example of consecuences why those rules exist?

[Emilio, USA]

Don't worry folks!!
I have been told from a very reliable source that Dad Anthony is already talking to the stewards to solve this.

Nothing will happen and British press will do its best to help the national hero.

[Anton]

All these Spaniards commentting are, to say the least, one-sided when they say LH is being helped to win this year, but the fact is that no one is complaining that only Mclaren was punished, not the pilots, in the case of the information stolen from Ferrari, although both FA and LH's wins were, and still are, obtained with an illegal car. As for the Brits, they're happy for having a record-breaking champion, and who cares about ethics?

[paul]

obiusly,hamilton should be taken off formula one because of all his points has been won under suspect and not in the race.

[Igor]

FIA rules should state that any tyre or brake warming behind SC (and at the beginning of the race) is forbidden. Stupid accidents like this, would be history.

[Rash]

I suggest that rather than passing jusgement based upon one piece of footage of one lap through that corner, that the footage should be cross-checked with previous laps through the said corner to compare the SC's speed and line through it.

What if the SC was being inconsistent through the corner.

Huh?

Either way, it seems a little late for an enquiry. The timing has to be the most questionable part of this new investigation.

Maybe it has something to do with the usual Aussie-English banter quickfire before a big rugby match.

[Beazer]

He is obviously more than 5 lengths behind the safety car at the time of the crash. He should be penalized.

This new footage has just become available and it was not available on race day. Now that they have it why wouldn't they penalize Hamilton? It is clear that he is more than 5 lengths behind the safety...

[Tuesday]

Webber is winging because he didn't get on the podium. In everyday life if you crash into the back of a car, whatever the car is doing in front you, you can be charged of driving without due care and attention - if you appealed to your insurer they would never settle in favor of the car behind, the one that hit the car in front. I watched, nervously, as Webber hounded Lewis for a long period leading up to the collision, with Vettel sniffing his backside. Accidents happen, especially in motorsport. Vettel was to blame - he was the one shunting Webber up the rear end! Webber, sorry mate, unlucky, accidents happen and this time lady luck was not on your side!

[Shreyas]

The entire population of the world should be divided into three groups: a) People who don't know F1, b) people who know F1 and c) people who understand F1.

And people only in the group C should be allowed to comment on F1, especially in case of Lewis Hamilton. I am afraid, as of today, not a single Spaniard would fall into group C as one has to 'fanatically' follow F1 for at least 10 years to gain some understanding of this greatest and most complex of all sports.

[marcos]

If you want to see the video of the crash it is available in any spanish online newspaper and also in youtube (like www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte) , why is not longer available in this website is quite suspicious...

[Kathryn S]

Hm-m-m, video is no longer available.

How very interesting that we were all watching the exact same thing, but how we interpreted it was very, very wide ranging. The human brain is an amazing thing...same visual input...different output.

[IDR]

All of you have forgotten Bernie Ecclestone declarations.

FIA will punish L Hamilton because the instructions for McLaren drivers, was to crash between them, not F Alonso himself and L Hamilton having some incidents with Webber and Vettel.

Bernie is so hungry. What are those guys thinking?

When Bernie talks, everybody must obey!

BTW, the viedo is no longer available due to a copyright clim by Formula One Management.

This video was taken by a fan, wasn't it?

[Cap]

The video is no longer available. Hmm...

I'm baffled that everyone is going on about this incident. Where Hamilton should be punished is for his behaviour during the first SC re-start. He seemed to be brake-testing Alonso, tempting the latter to pass him before the line, then accelerating. In the wet, it was very dangerous.

Martin Brundle began criticising it, then James Allen cut in (almost like a bit of censorship).

MAVERICK: funny you're praising all the two-way communication on the blog. Ed thought about censoring it a little while ago, which would have defeated the object of a blog.

[Luis]

in case LW got punished, what would the punishmenet be? 10 positions in China, 10 points less since he won illegally. Most likely he won´t be punished at all, considering what has been happening during the sesson. The title is already decided, hopefully we could have two good races

[Sergio]

F1 2007 Sporting Regulations

40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other
drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed
will be reported to the stewards. This will apply
whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

40.10 The safety car shall be used at least until the leader is behind it and all remaining cars are lined up behind
him.
Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it (except under 40.13 below)
and all remaining cars must keep the formation as tight as possible.

[LWS]

Now the video is gone.

FIA is investigating if it was produced using false cars and distributed by FA. If FIA probes that, FA will be punished (-10 points). If not, FA will be punished (-10 points) because he has not stopped the distribution of the video.

[luigi]

so JUST this video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management. in fact kidnapped right to opinion? hope not

[rebeca]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hWIfBkVQUk
I can't see the video, that is the link with youtube.

[Beth, Kensington]

The only driver to blame is FA, because of his crash, if he wouldn't do it, no safety car for second time, and now nobody would been discaussing Hamilton driving behind the SC. Obviusly he had the crash on purpose and paid Webber and Vettel to simulate an accident, it's so clear.

[Jacob]

Ed:

Thank you for posting the video. In it, it´s very clear it is Hamilton fault.
I guess the didn´t punish him because as british like to say "political pression"

Andy G:
Where it´s said FIA have to take a decision right after the race?

By the way,I guess you must work in a farm. Because you are always talking about rabits and other animals...

I can imagine you there talking about F1 with your cows... Finally the mistery of the crazy cows has been resolved.

[Tuesday]

Webber is winging because he didn't get on the podium. In everyday life if you crash into the back of a car, whatever the car is doing in front you, you can be charged of driving without due care and attention - if you appealed to your insurer they would never settle in favor of the car behind, the one that hit the car in front. I watched, nervously, as Webber hounded Lewis for a long period leading up to the collision, with Vettel sniffing his backside. Accidents happen, especially in motorsport. Vettel was to blame - he was the one shunting Webber up the rear end! Webber, sorry mate, unlucky, accidents happen and this time lady luck was not on your side!

[José Luis M.]

Hi.

Does anyone know (Ed?) why the video is no longer available on youtube?

Thx.

[RANTAM]

I simply don't see the point to delete the video...

?¿?¿?¿

As it's removed I couldn't see the footage. But it's clear that Hamilton likes to 'play' if the SC is around. You just need to take a look about his driving during the previous safety car (the rolling start SC).

It's a pity, as this guy is a great driver..

Man, F1 is getting the 'F1 circus', as it was called in the past :-)

Is a YouTube video even admissible evidence? FIA will have to come up with better - if no footage is forth coming from Bernie, the complaint is still born.

[Maverick]

I believe tht Hamilton has played a part in causing the Mark / Vettle accident. And if Vettle is punished, Hamilton should also be punished.10 grid penalty is the least i expect.FIA guys..are you listening....why the hell are you biased towards one driver...the biggest culprit are the stewards...they went out of their way to punish Alonso in hungary...can i question..was there an official complain from any team/ official member...NO..it was daddy Anthony...he should not be allowed to enter the Paddock..wht is he doin there always? Then the stewards punished Kubica in Fuji...but not others for being part in the collision...shame on the stewards...and FIA is the biggest loser if they continue to have stewards like these.

[Phil H]

If they're just going to drop him 10 places on the grid, go for it. It can't help but make the race more interesting to watch, especially if it's going to be in the rain as Ed's weather report suggests.

[BTG]

dauda epoakara, come on! Go with Hamilton´s father and take a beer together!

[Mark]

As race leader driving in such extreme conditions Hamilton should have done better. Not only at the moment of the accident, but a number of times in the first 19 laps as well (as noted by Button and clear to see in the race coverage). He had the best visibility and the only thing he had to do was follow the rhythm of the SC, under such extreme conditions it is dangerous not to. The rules are clear and should be enforced, especially when the visibility of the drivers is as poor as they where last Sunday. Hamilton breaking resulted indirectly in one accident, but could easily have resulted in more with drivers not being able to see more then a couple of meters...

This year there have been a number of punishments that resulted directly from SC situation (Alonso's drive through in Canada, Massa's disqualification in the same race where both cases of breaking the rules that govern conduct under a SC situation) I think Hamilton should not be above the rules and his driving in this race (not generally) warrants a disqualification.

[Txus G.R.]

Show must go on!!

This video has been on the web since monday.Lewis is guilty for sure...The most blind is the one who doesn't want to see (Great post from Augusto Baena)

The FIA & Eclestone are interested in showing it today and open an "investigation" to increase the audience and the expectation before the free practice of tomorrow and of course for the whole racing weekend.
After Lewis's victory at Japan and the decreasing options for Fernando & Kimi for the final fight,they have probaly presumed,that the audience will low down for China & Brazil races,even more,due to the local time and the delay with Europen time...Bernie's circus,nothing new.

In any case Lewis must pay for his actittude in every lap he was following the safety car since race started (Even more after all the things he said about the start at Belgium with no reason because there Fernando didn't anything dangerous to anyone except keeping his line and there Lewis have no space to overtake him).A fair punishment should be the penalization of points he got at Japan and the lose of ten positions in the grid at China as Vettel.

[BTG]

It was FA, not Hamilton. The SC was there just because FA crashed.

FIA should punish FA (all his points and all the points of the next season).

And the british media should state (again) how bad is FA, the man who crashed his car just to put Lewis' victory under suspect.

Posted by: LWS | 4 Oct 2007 13:16:07

THIS IS FUN!!

[rudolf]

Hamilton is guilty, but he is the babe of the FIA

[Nick]

Watching the video is clear that Lewis didn't only cause the accident; he also violated the rule 40.10
"...Once behind the safety car, the race leader must keep within 5 car lengths of it."

I believe that not one instance of the video proves that he was not behind the SC 5 car lengths. Only after the crash when the SC gathers speed may he possible be at best 5 car lengths away.

"FIA rules should state that any tyre or brake warming behind SC (and at the beginning of the race) is forbidden. Stupid accidents like this, would be history."

If this is so, then why oh why have we seen a billion times people warming there tyres up behind a safety car. We all know this rule does not exist otherwise those cars would not last in the race. They would fly off if the brakes are not up to temp.

And also what does probably every countries driving agency say about driving in the rain, leave a bigger distance because braking distance is at least doubled.

Why did Hamilton brake? Well he didnt want to brake his nose cone. Why did Webber brake? Some may say because he didnt want to hit the SC car, some may say not to overtake Hamilton. I dont think the FIA would punish MW for briefly going in front of LH in those kind of conditions.
Why was Vittel looking at Hamilton? Cos he says he think he broke down, why does even matter! Vittel should have been concentrating on his own race. It would have been the best result for both Red Bull and Toro Rosso all season.

Maybe LH was braking harshly on the first SC period, but if i remember the race correctly, the only time LH backed the pack up alot was on the last corner when the SC lights had already gone out, hence why LH played the games. When the SC lights go out all rules about following it do not apply.

Also if i remember Kimi Raikkonen said that it was dangerous out there, and on the straights you couldnt see very far in front. You just had to hope that someone hadnt stopped in front or braked suddenly. Would Kimi be at fault if he had hit someone, or would the person who braked earlier be at fault? Neither, it would just be classed as a racing incident in very poor conditions.

Some believe LH was driving to avoid the SC, some believe he was getting some heat in his brakes. Some may ask why the SC was going so slow at that point.

One thing that cannot be said though is the distance that LG was away from the SC at point of the accident. If anything all three cars involved were within that 5 car limit of the SC at the time of the accident.

[EB]

My God!! If Alonso would have done it, he might well be banned from F1 for lifetime... I believe Hamilton should be penalised for it (he tried also something similar when FA was behind him when the SC)and all points given in Japan taken away from him!

[Nick]

and to quickly add, if LH did brake down, wouldnt all the blame be put on Vittel for not paying attention. So all this could have been avoided if Vittel was watching the car in front. (maybe he would of if it was a Toyota)

[jlk]

To All
I can't believe this s***! Is this a race track or a day care center for children! Whining, pissing moaning over this rule that rule LH shoulda done this FA shoulda done that! I guess F1 has put so many overlapping everchanging rules in place that is has come to this. It looks to me that no matter what happens on the track it is always "somebody else's fault". Why do you think we have an out-of-control legal system here in the States. Something happens to you? No problem mate, just SUE!
JLK

[Nick]

Right out off LH mouth, in a interview with ITV.

However after winning at Fuji, Hamilton said it had been necessary to brake sharply because of the braking material McLaren had been using – and suggested it was Webber whose driving had been erratic.

"We just needed to keep the heat in the brakes," he said.

"I was running quite a hard compound of brakes, so if I did light braking, I would have glazed the brakes.

"So I was making sure there was a little bit of a gap, maximising the gap that you're allowed and [using] it to my benefit.

"It was tough because Mark behind me was just too close, and all of a sudden he braked really hard and I don't know what happened – someone ran into him.

"I was constantly on the radio to my engineers to tell the Red Bull team to get Mark to make a little more of a gap because I couldn't go any faster because the pace car was in front of me.

"So I was trying to keep the distance with him and then I'd move over because I couldn't see Mark and then he'd just appear alongside me, so he kept outbraking himself.

"I felt something was going to happen, and I guess my instincts told me right."

[Al (Spain)]

It's so clear!!!
Safety Car must be punished!

No, seriously. Maybe Lewis did wrong, in fact I think it was worse at the end of first safety. Because with no reason, Lewis sunddenly breaks hardly (and Fernando has to do the same to avoid overtoke him).

But...Are you going to punish him in such way to, maybe change a championship played on track?

Without doubt Ferrari and Kimi Raikkonen are waiting for that, it's last opportunity for them...

[Pau]

Fernando was penalized for staying ten extra seconds in the pit lane and damaging Hamilton´s chances of getting the pole in Hungary.

Lewis damaged with his weird driving the possibility of a podium for Webber and Vettel. Even Button has also said that Hamilton was doing weird stuff when all drivers knew the safety car was not going in.

These are the facts but knowing how the FIA rules I do not expect much. This is a rotten sport because as Webber says, this is what happens when kids with no experience get into the sport.

[AJ]

The video is no longer available in youtube.

You still can check it at:
http://www.tu.tv/videos/fia-investiga-a-hamilton-por-accidente-e

It seems pretty clear to me and it is a real surprise the FIA didn't penalize him just after the race.

[Danny]

Hamilton is at fault. The weather was atricous and it is up to him to lead the field around properly, as he knows the people behind him will have difficulty seeing in his spray. His erratic driving led to the incident. He should lose all points from the race, as a 10 place grid penalty would not impede Hamilton and he would still win the championship in china as he has the car (Ferrari) to finish on the podium.

[Weasel]

Wow... Lewis is guilty, Alonso is innocent, Humpty Dumpty was pushed, Elvis lives, Machiavelli for President etc. - the conspiracist whiners are out in full force.

What I see paraded here is scary - can you imagine if you were on trial and these were some of the jurors? Talk about judgmental! Guilty until proven innocent eh?

The most concise and objective comment posted here is that of Elizabeth Burgess. Clear, rational and to the point. Thank you Elizabeth for this balanced view.

Let's look at some basics: when the safety car is out you are not meant to be racing. You are meant to be in a holding pattern. In those kind of conditions you keep your distance from the car in front and stay focused. There was no reason for the cars to be that closely bunched as the race was not about to go green. While everybody is trying to play the blame shifting game, at least Vettel took responsibility for his mistake/inattention. Would the rest of you drivers just please shut up and go racing.

For you bunch of conspiracist Einsteins: the FIA should dock all World Drivers Championship points from the mean and evil Safety Car driver for going too slow into that corner with the clear and deliberate intention of forcing the pile up behind him. This was a carefully orchestrated plot by the CNI (Spanish Secret Service) to exact revenge for Alonso being forced - yes, forced to crash. Since the Safety Car is a Mercedes (and next year Alonso will not be driving one), it has already been stripped of all constructors championship points anyway, so might as well finish it off and hang the Safety Car driver.

Man, some of the wacky theories posted here are too goofy for words.

[Augusto Baena]

Regarding those emails saying Lewis deserves to win this DWC, etc.

I believe Lewis deserves to win this DWC.

On the other hand, I believe rules are there to be enforced equally for everybody.

Almost every rule-breaking situation is arguable.

Therefore, FIA (as a referee in a football match) can take a "strict" approach or a "lenient / permissive / laissez faire" approach. A "laissez-faire" approach is something like: let's allow everything unless its undenniably faulty. "Strict" implies not allowing anything doubtful.

Both approaches have pros and cons. "Laissez faire" can lead to competition spinning out of control as teams cheat marginally more every time. "Strict" approach imply competition can be more determined out-of-track than on the track.

I assume any approach is debatable.

But, at least, it's important to be consistent.

I think FIA is, sometimes, very strict (e.g. sanctioning Alonso in Monza'06 for "disturbing Massa's airflow") and too lenient some others.

This race, sanctioning Kubica for hitting Hamilton made no sense altogether.

Look what autosport says regarding this issue:

"Kubica was clearly in a racy mood, and engaged in more boisterous antics with Ferrari's Felipe Massa on the final lap. The Massa incident went unpunished, the brush with Hamilton cost the young Pole a drive-through penalty. Neither incident should have earned the stewards' wrath.

In the aftermath of the Prost/Senna and Schumacher eras, it is understandable that the stewards want to discourage any potential for collisions with championship-altering consequences. But even championship challengers still need to race and earn their positions by fighting for them. In the current climate, any racer in the same zip code as a championship leader will feel obliged to slow down and figuratively leap out of the way to avoid a penalty – even if they are fighting for position."

I believe that, if you sanction Kubica for trying to overtake (he was being clearly faster than Hamilton at that time, as the Englishman was struggling with heavy weight), then you should punish Lewis for behaving erraticaly after the safety car, which led to an accident.

Either both or none.

Just to be consistent.

Regards

[owen haren]

Seems to me this video is about 4 days after the event.Do we have a case of professional or ethical jealousy instigated by who knows who? Why not congratulate someone with skill and a determination to win-

[NACHO GUINYOL SEVILLA]

Thanks to Andy Gorman for finding the News’s “Eye of the Hurricane” today. According to "El Pais" in Spain, FIA started its investigation after having watched this YOUTUBE video from some unknown spectator, and Webber and Vettel's reports on the accident. Hand in heart …I can feel it beating.