Mosleyitis

As some of you have noticed I have been slow to update this site on Mosley. This is for two reasons. First and most important, I am really enjoying the debate about the greatest drivers in Formula One. That would be a discussion about sport, wouldn't it? It is great to see so many points of view and, as I hoped, so many people have contributed who do not normally do so. It is fascinating reading about drivers whom people saw racing years ago. Great.

The second reason is that I am fed up with writing about Mosley here and I hesitate to keep repeating myself. He is very consistent in his behaviour which demands a consistent response and I accept that this can become very boring and tedious. The best way to have avoided this was for Mosley to have resigned but let's not go into that again(I have done that in today's paper).

This weekend Mosley's team leaked a letter he has written to the FIA presidents which basically says that the FIA is under dire threat and that only Mosley and no-one else can save it. There is no doubt there is something in some of his arguments but the, at times, apocalyptic tone is ridiculous and the letter should be seen for what it is; a smokescreen on the eve of his appearance at Monaco to distract from the unaltered reality that the biggest threat to the FIA is from Mosley himself.

One thing that amazes me about this is how people in Formula One go on about what a clever politician Mosley is and, indeed, several people have said this weekend that this letter is a great example of his cunning and political savvy. To my mind this stuff is incredibly crude; it is so obvious what he is up to and the letter treats its readers(the presidents of the member clubs) as if they are idiots. The tone is one of lofty condescension. "Leave it to me," says Mosley, "the place is(suddenly) on fire, they are shooting at us from all angles, but I'll save you(and me)...."

As an aside here, I and quite a few other correspondents had dinner with Mosley in London just before the start of the season. It was an enjoyable evening during which Mosley was largely going over the details of what he saw as his great victory against Ron. There was a brief discussion of the Concorde Agreement but there was nothing notable or alarmist about the tone and, in general, the impression given was that the FIA was on an even keel. Isn't it strange that not that long afterwards, we suddenly discover that the very same FIA is fighting for its life; Formula One is trying to cede from it, the negotiations on the World Rally championship "are critical to the FIA's future" and everything that the FIA is involved in just now is so crucial that only Mosley is capable of handling it?

Moving on, the next thing that happened this weekend is the revelation that the husband of one of the prostitutes who whipped Mosley and took part in the prison camp role play with him, is married to an officer in MI5 who has since been sacked. MI5 has strenuously denied it was involved in any surveillance of Mosley and even Mosley's people accept that. However Mosley believes this man may have been working "freelance" with others to trap him. Again, all I would say here is that the issue for motor racing and Formula One is not how he came to be exposed but the fact that this having been done, he is now very widely considered unfit for the office he holds.

Going back to the letter, it contains one detail which suggests that, finally, even Mosley himself has recognised that he is effectively persona non grata(as evidenced by official reaction to him in Bahrain, Spain, Israel, Turkey and Monaco so far). He tells the presidents that from now on he will leave "almost all public presentation of the FIA to the two deputy presidents". That would be Marco Piccinini and Michel Boeri(both of whom, according to one well-placed source, are "super-pissed off" with Mosley). Anyway the point is; why has Mosley decided to do this? It wouldn't by any chance be because Mosley is now considered, even by Mosley himself, as too embarrassing a figure to do the job?

Comments

[F1-Insisder]

Ed,
The letter (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/77511625__mm_letter_gb.pdf) when read as a whole can be read in several ways and I agree with what you have written.
However one reads the letter everyone here, the press and the FIA should remember that this situation has happened on Mosley’s watch, no one else Mosley’s watch.
Nobody forced him to make the arrangements he did with those prostitutes so how could it have been a trap as he says?
Whilst I do agree with you that it is blatantly obvious what he is ding, I like Jackie Stewart expect him to win the SECRET BALLOT on June the 3rd, which again says a lot about Mosley’s watch doesn’t it.
I have sad, like a few others that the FIA need F1, F1 does not need the FIA and it would be no bad thing to remove it completely from those that currently control it and this of course includes both Mosley AND Ecclestone who have masterminded the current rules F1 has to work to. The power that Mosley holds is the craziest thing I have ever come across; pray tell me what is the difference between a dictator and how Mosley has controlled F1?

I note with interest you state that you and other journalists had dinner with Mosley way before all this started and you touched on the Mclaren affair and I would be very surprised if you or any other journalist there said what most in F1 know to be true that what happened to Mclaren was not right, so many questions that the FIA/Mosley) should answer that as yet not been asked which I suspect in the main is because of the fear Mosley holds over those that work in F1, now what does that say about how Mosley and the FIA operate? I as others must have noticed just how slow the F1 press were to report the Mosley affair when it first became public, no other F1 related topic would they have held back the way they did on the Mosley scandal (you know this to be true). Surely it is time for a change, after all F1 is probably the world’s richest sport and most watched sport and in truth more a business than a sport so there really is no excuse for poor governance, the early days are no more.

Should the case the FIA/Mosley are bringing to court against News International re the Martin Brudell’s Sunday Times article go to court I hope that New International will employ the greatest legal minds and flush out a number of wrongs the FIA/Mosley are responsible for, let’s see if it happens (can you enlighten us on this)?

Lastly, IT IS your duty to report F1 and topics on the same so you should not give way on this just because a few may be getting bored with it or object on the views they hold, this IS the best F1 blog on the net and I can think of nothing more important at the moment that is gripping F1 – can you?

[B Cave]

Good article Ed and good post F1-Insider. Apart from all the excellent arguments for why Mosley should step down immediately, I feel a great sadness at the way McLaren were treated last year, which was clearly unjust. It shames F1 that this could happen because it shows that the competition isn't fair. A sport where the audience cannot trust the result or the arbitrators of that sport, is one that will eventually die. This is really really serious.

[McLaren treated badly?]

Anybody who still claims that McLaren was treated badly in the spy scandal last year should pay heed to the fact that the team issued a press release acknowledging that Ferrari data had permeated through the organisation to a far greater extent than what was initially realised. The McLaren team also agreed not to continue development in key design areas and to refrain from using carbon dioxide to inflate its tyres as a consequence of the study by the FIA into McLaren's actions. If people were to familiarise themselves with fundamental facts then ill-informed remarks would not be posted. Of course the inability of the majority of the British motorsport media to offer a comprehensive analysis of the spy scandal does not assist matters.

[colin grayson]

lets face it , max mosley has done a lot of good for F1 , I for one don't doubt that
but he his past his sell by date , and his unwillingness to resign confirms that ; he has brought the sport into disrepute , no other reason is necessary ; what he hopes to achieve by hiding in the background in order to see out his term escapes me ; perhaps he is arrogant enough to think that only he can bring about changes that are sorely needed
F1 has always developed partly by pinching other teams ideas , which keeps the playing field level ; how come renault and toyota were let off in the past but when someone at ML does the same thing it's a no no
and I notice that renault have some bodywork modification's recently ...look rather familiar to me , couldn't be somebody else's idea , could they ; everyone , of course has their brain blanked if they change teams
so why ML ; couldn't be personal , could it ?
hope you are reading this ron , and feeling a warm glow

[David Hodge]

Excellent piece and excellent analysis from F1-Insider. Thanks to you both.

Ed, I am worried about one little (almost throwaway) line in your piece. "...what he saw as his great victory against Ron". I think most of us suspected, from Martin Brundell onwards, and I think it confirms that the action against McLaren was motivated more by a personal issue between Ron and Max than anything else. I realise that certain people will immediately get on their high horse about McLaren being proven to be in possession of stolen goods but before they rant on this blog, please think of Renault also.

How much more unsuitability does this man have to display before he resigns? Truly, the emperor has no clothes.

[IDR]

The best drug for Mosleyitis is Mosleydol Forte 500 mg. (Ecclestone Pharmacy Industries, Inc.)

The only problem Mosleydol Forte is a rectal suppository, so one must be careful before proceed just in case somebody film you with your pants down and your finger in a not very nice position!

[Pau]

Perhaps Max's private spies are finding info, do you think the MI5 would release such information out of nowhere?
What would you say if they find proof that it was a set-up and that Ron was involved?

Max will stay until 2009 and then he'll be replaced by Todt.

[F1-Insider]

For the record, Mclaren have not admitted to any wrong doing. The statement released by Mclaren was do so to allow them to continue racing, the same reason is why they have agreed not to develop certain elements of their cars in 2008.
It needs to be understood (may do) that Mclaren were in a no way situation as unlike any other sporting body of legal system Mclaren could not win and I totally agree with the comments Martin Brundell put into print, the whole Mclaren affair was a ‘ditch-stunt’ (is that OK ED)?
David Hodge picked up on the comment reference Ron during the journalist’s dinner (I would bet all I have that not one of the journalists picked it up at the time – Ed can you comment on this)?
Spygate as it has become known was never spying in any case, Mclaren didn’t plant any individual at Ferrari. The facts are Ferrari, Mclaren and Renault were all involved in found out unsavoury practices during 2008, practices that have ALWAYS gone on in F1, it’s how F1 has operated for years in one form or another.
As F1 has become embroiled in so much money, money has taken over, when Mosey took over as FIA president both he and Ecclestone had already plotted out the future in a loose form. In my view F1 belongs to the teams (a view shared by a number of the teams) and not the FIA, The FIA own the brand Formula One but without the teams the brand is worthless, nobody knows this better than Ecclestone and Mosley.
It would appear to me that Mosley has decided that if he falls Ecclestone will as well, maybe I’m wrong we’ll see in the next couple of weeks if Mosley is still around.
The article in today’s Times is the best I have read on the affair to date and is extremely eloquently written and hits the nil on the head.
To finish and to repeat what I’ve written previously, the fact that not one team boss will openly come out and feel secure in speaking their mind says everything the F1 world and beyond needs to know about the Mosley ruled FIA. Like father like son (well I’m sure you can see the connection if things had been a little different).

[F1-Insider]

IDR
Very good.
I would add that as far as I am aware the medication you refer to are quiet large and really need the assistance of a third party to insert them which is normally done with a solid whack with a bat - better stop there - hahahahahaha :))))

[17 points in two races]

And go on... Now MI5, oh yes the Brits and the anglosahon hipocrisy!!! This was BLACKMAIL and you are using it.
In France they say "Cherchez la femme" and in Italy "Qui prodest" and the police say "Who is the beneficiary of this private video"
The answer: THE ENEMIES OF MAX MOSLEY.
To Stelmara: you could respect other views of the life, yes I read others brits papers like The Guardian, with love yours sincerely wooly liberal. Time ago, if you were single with a determinated age, you were suspicious of... Now these things don´t happens.

[Ben]

Mosely needs to be subjected to a bit of old fashioned people power. British F1 fans, at Silverstone this year, should do a mass protest if Mosley appears at the track; the site of hundreds of fans turning their backs on him, and slapping their backsides while wailing 'ooh yes' in a German accent, should get the message across.

[A Parker]

To McClaren Treated Badly, surely if Ron Dennis hadn't completely capitulated to spanky, his beloved team wouldn't have been able to compete anymore. What a disgrace that such an honourable man as Ron had to do that, when other teams do similar things and get away scot free. Ron wasn't even personally responsible for the so-called Spygate. Anyone who can't see that is either:

a. a FIArri supporter
b. an Alonso supporter
c. blind, deaf and dumb.

[Stelmara]

@ F1 Insider
Your take on the ‘spygate affair’ is absolutely right. I follow F1 and I have not seen or read anything where anyone from Mclaren has actually admitted doing any wrong doing and I agree with you that this sort of thing has always gone on anyway, remember Toyota what did spanker Mosley’s FIA do about that? Wish I knew what it is that spanker Mosley has against Ron Dennis, somebody must know what the cause of his hatred for him is ED Gorman do you know?
@ 17 points in two races
Get a life man if you have nothing sensible to say then why bother saying anything at all?
@ IDR good joke and F1 Insiders bat idea made me smile out loud.
@ A Parker, I agree with you. Ron Dennis together with Frank Williams are the two most honourable men in F1 and both love racing and let their drivers race

[Bill]

What the FIA need to think about before they all vote, is that if they agree with his letter about the situation that they find themselves in with the CRH and he therefore needs to stay, how it is that they have allowed him to become the only person that could possibly handle the delicate negotiations that he suggests are necessary, and why is the organisation structured so that there is no effective knowledge management or handover procedures in place that would overcome the situation he's put them in?

[andyps]

McLaren Treated Badly?

You say that people should read the facts of the case, but only talk about the apology McLaren made, without mentioning the transcript of the cases which clearly state that there was only a "suspicion" that the information was spread within McLaren. That was enough for the FIA, headed by Mosley, to issue an unprecedented fine. The "blame" was put on McLaren for not controlling their employees, conveniently forgetting that it was a Ferrari employee who gave the information away, quite possibly receiving similar information about McLaren to use within Ferrari. the was no suggestion that McLaren actively sought out the information.

As someone else said, why was it called spying? Spying is when you try to watch your neighbour getting undressed by peeping through the gap in their curtains, it is not spying when they walk naked through your front door.

The apology was the only way McLaren could create "closure" to stop further investigations by the FIA, interrupting the business of McLaren - developing cars to win F1 races. The fact that Mosley keeps bringing it up whenever possible, whilst McLaren have moved on, to me, indicates that Marin Brundle was correct in terms of it being a Ditch Stunt.

[Pierre]

A Parker - well said.

Everyone forgets that last years fiasco was NOT a spy scandal. McLaren were GIVEN the info by a Senior Ferrari employee. They did not embark on a smoke and mirrors mission to spy on Ferrari. This fact has never been disputed.

McLaren were guilty of not having adequate internal controls to limit the disemmination of the detail they were given.

In my opinion, Ferrari were equally guilty of breaking the sporting code etc. If Ferrari hadn't given the detail to McLaren, this scandal would never had happened!

How come Ferrari were not punished for their part???

[Jeff Bellamy]

The issue of the emnity between Mosely and Ron Dennis is interesting. I'm not sure there is one single incident that soured the relationship. Mad Max had previously referred to Ron as "not the brightest spark in the paddock". Could it be that the problem is nothing more than jealousy? Ron worked his way up from nothing having started ife as a mechanic, and now runs the McLaren team. Mad Max came from a privelaged background and was a director of the MARCH team, including its F1 operation, which floundered for a variety of reasons. Whereas Ron has made a success of each of the teams he's run, Mad Max and his chums - despite all the hype and boasts - failed. I think that may irritate Spanky, particularly as Ron doesn't come across as the most engaging of individuals.
Jean Todt as next president of the FIA? I don't think so. I know he's being suggested as the most likely candidate but I'm not sure he'll be able to remain unbiased when it comes to Ferrari. Perhaps the time has come for a new approach, and to appoint someone from outside F1 with no baggage or history.
As for Spygate I wonder what the modern FIA would have done in late 1978 when it became clear that some of the teams were prepared to go to extraorinary lengths to get data on and copy the Lotus 79!

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

To ANDYPS and others

I suggest that people who are not aware of the extent to which Ferrai data was spread through the confines of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes read the contents of the report made by the FIA Technical Department to the World Motorsport Council (published 5 December 2007), which can be found at the following URL.

http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf

Vodafone McLaren Mercedes made a full public apology based upon the findings of this report.

p.s. I suggest that A Parker learn how to spell before making ignorant, imbecilic remarks.

[ALLMAN]

Yes, now that's been discovered that Mosley was trapped in an ambush by God knows who (but very powerful people there is no doubt about it) is better for you to shup ut.

It's also very sad to see British fanatics supporting McLaren and Dennis just because they think that British are above laws. That says a lot about the pathetism of their country and how they think they can do wathever they want without a punishment, like in the good (and full of terrible atrocities) old days of the Empire.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

To F1-INSIDER

I think you will find that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes DID apologise.

Read on if you have any doubts.

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2007/12/7176.html

[A Parker]

McLaren treated badly, what did I spell wrong?

FIArri or
McLaren or
spanky?

[Stelmara]

@ Andyps and Jeff Bellamy and Pierre and A Parker and F1 Insider

Seems like we all agree that Mclaren and Ron Dennis were unfairly treated. If it were know during the case that spanky engaged in spanking for pain gain etc is there ANYONE out there, even the most ardent Ferrari fan honestly believe that the case would not have been looked at again and the end result somewhat different? Also can there be ANYONE out ether that honestly believe tat had the case been heard in a normal court of law in any country other than many be Italy that the outcome would not have been completely different? If Mclaren were guilty then so too were Ferrari and Renault and that’s just what we know about bet there is loads more that we don’t know about.
What should have happened last year is that the F1 teams not involved should have shown a little courage and come to the defence of Ron Dennis and Mclaren or stated publicity that both Ferrari AND Ferrari should receive simulate punishments to that handed out to Mclaren, that’s what should have happened;

Notwithstanding the ‘ditch-stunt’ (seems like we have to speak in code here) against Mclaren and the selling of F1 for 100 (one hundred can ANYONE believe that) years for a pittance, the devious manoeuvring to gain complete control over all aspects of the FIA, any of which should have been and are just cause’s for spanker Mosley to be sacked (if the FIA were allowed to do so as know body can actually sack him, couldn’t make it up) but we also have the whole S&M whipping orgy and the spanker refusing to do the right thing and continuing to bring shame on himself and the FIA and by association F1. Has there EVER EVER been a more blatant case of bring F1 into disrepute and inept response to it?

[Weasel]

Ed I think your assessment of Mosley's letter is pretty much spot on, although I see deeper issues.

My reading of Prince Maxiavelli's FIA letter sees the tactics of a desperate, drowning man, grasping at straws in trying to retain any iota of control he may have once had and at the same time not so subtly threatening Bernie Ecclestone and the transparently nepotistic and almost certainly flat out illegal 100 year deal. This latter being the epitome of what Americans call racketeering.

The implications of the letter seem to say that Maxiavelli IS the FIA and that the 100 year deal and it's continuance hinges on him and him alone.

I see Maxiavelli threatening Bernie Ecclestone and these would appear to be the tactics of a desperate man - to turn on your allies. So what Maxiavelli appears to be saying is 'Stick with me Bernie or you are doomed' and implicitly threatening to scuttle the 100 year deal if Bernie does not support him. This whole issue becomes somewhat moot if Maxiavelli gets a majority vote of no confidence at the June 3rd FIA EGM. The phrase 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you' springs to mind. Indeed, seeing such a less than subtle and thinly veiled threat from Maxiavelli, why would Bernie Ecclestone have any interest in seeing his former ally, the one who is now threatening him, retain any form of power? Et tu Brutus?

Of far deeper significance is the revelation of how corrupt the FIA is under the aegis of Maxiavelli, both as a vindictive money extraction tool - see $100m Mclaren fine - aka quasi legalized extortion and as a morally bankrupt and fatally flawed self enrichment bureaucracy.

The truth of the FIA's misdeeds are just beginning to come to light and this is the mere tip of the iceberg. The whole Mosley saga does indeed appear at least to question, if not threaten the continued existence of this self aggrandizing and egotistical dictatorship. Back to fascism eh Max? I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

The consequences of the exposure of Mosley's sexual eccentricities has in turn caused a deeper public examination of the inner workings of this secret society aka the FIA. This is classic MaFIA - or should we call it the MaxFIA.

Mosley seems, in his letter, to be breaking the honoured code of 'Omerta' (the code of silence) and such traitors to the cause are usually found taking passive swimming lessons.

The schism within the MaxFIA appeass to go so deep that it does indeed threaten to implode and, judging by the serious examination of alternatives by major commercial interests, it smacks of the Fall of the Roman Empire. One wonders whether Maxiavelli has almost single handedly precipitated the fall of the MaxFIA? And this is meant to be a smart man of devastating intellect and awesome power? Never mind Max, at least after the bloodbath is all over, if you are lucky, you will have one more foot left to shoot off.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

To PIERRE

The word 'mole' was used by Vodafone McLaren Mercedes employees in internal communications. Clearly these individuals believed that espionage was taking place.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

A PARKER

Read your opening sentence.

[F1-Insider]

Dear McLaren Treated Badly?

I am fully aware of the document Mclaren were, in effect, forced to write to the FIA to put closure on the continued intrusion into their 2008 racing preparations (certain shady background deals were done to force the hand of Mclaren). If Mclaren had not done as instructed I (and others) believe it was pervey Mosley’s intent to remove Mclaren from the 2008 F1 championship.
Even Mclaren could not cope with this situation as it would have had massive, maybe even terminal consequence for the Woking team.

However well any organisation is it is impossible to know what everyone is doing at every single second of every day when they are at work or at home, do you understand this? It is impossible.

As has been rightly stated by others if Mclaren were guilty then so were Ferrari as any information given to them was freely given by a senior Ferrari engineer (whom by the way is still not known for certain as Stepney has denied that the information came from him).

You would also be wise to review what Stepney said both before ad during his meetings with pervey Mosley and what pervey Mosley said in return to him, what was it ‘ we shouldn’t take notice of what Stepney says as he is an unreliable witness or something similar? Who is pervey Mosley to say who is and who isn’t an unreliable witness? Let’s not forget that Stepney has gone on record about knowing where the skeletons are buried. If this was to be formally investigated and found to be true then a number of careers may well be ruined, so at very high level in F1 and Mosley is aware of that, I’m sure.

Too many F1 followers only follow on the periphery and are not aware of the shady dealings behind the scenes. If Mclaren were guilty as you say they you must agree that Ferrari were as well for letting the most detailed document ever produced on an F1 team to be allowed to leave its keep. I can say boldly that not in a million years would the FIA fine Ferrari in the way they went after Mclaren and we as F1 followers should know why that is.

I for one believe the FIA are all but finished as there are so many faults with the way it’s run, so many secrets behind the scenes, so many favours given and paybacks owed. The only way that I can see that the FIA could recover is if a complete outsider were brought in and most, if not all the officials in place today are replaced, all F1 teams are treated equally and no more favours given or owed and the introduction of a proper legal framework in-line with an honest legal system (this will never happen, too many people have too much to loose).

[Evonne O]

Max should really go. He is damaging F1.

[KoJ Finland]

Although from Finland, working here in Guildford England we never see things like this back home.
In Finland many formula one fans believe McLaren were unfairly treated.
If an engineer from Ericsson gave an engineer from Nokia some information for free on a new phone breakthrough, like any business they would look at the information to see if they could use it, that's just business and what is F1 really, it's just a business pretending to be a sport.
If McLaren were guilty for accepting any information from Ferrari then surely Ferrari must also be guilty for allowing the information to be given to McLaren or am I not seeing the point?
Back onto the blog subject things like this don't happen in Finland, now what does that say about us? Too much dark in the winter too much light in the summer.

[andyps]

MCLAREN TREATED BADLY?

Please can explain why I think it is English companies who are above the law? That seems totally irrelevant here, we are not talking about law, we are talking about the FIA. If the FIA were consistent with their application of "law" Toyota would have been punished when two of their employees were jailed for industrial espionage (or similar) for taking confidential information from Ferrari to Toyota when they left employment in Italy. The FIA did nothing. Renault should have been punished when they were found to have McLaren confidential documents on the desks of many of their engineers, taken by an ex-McLaren employee. The FIA effectively did nothing. Ferrari should have been punished for letting one of their employees give information to a McLaren employee. The FIA did nothing.

The FIA article you refer to was a document produced to justify the FIA agenda - this agenda meant that McLaren had to do certain things to have any chance of being an effective F1 team in 2008 and beyond. Remember, the FIA is prosecutor, judge and jury in this situation, both the specifics of spygate, and everything else regarding teams in F1. If they don't like something, they can do what they like. If they aren't bothered, they can ignore things. Remember that Stepney told the FIA about the illegal Ferrari floor at the start of 2007 and they chose to ignore it. Why?

[Tom Sherrill]

Ed, thanks for the laugh from reading your perposterous statements in your article, "As some of you have noticed I have been slow to update this site on Mosley...The second reason is that I am fed up with writing about Mosley here and I hesitate to keep repeating myself...The best way to have avoided this was for Mosley to have resigned but let's not go into that again(I have done that in today's paper)."

Yes, you are so fed up with writing about Mosley and repeating yourself that you write TWO pieces on the same day about it. The piece linked from today's paper is a complete rehash of news previously reported elsewhere.

Another clue to your bias in this matter is your line where you write, "This weekend Mosley's team leaked a letter he has written to the FIA presidents..." This is simply not what happened. One or some of the club presidents who received the letter forwarded a copy of the letter to the media. The media reports then put their spin on it but curiously, to the best of my knowledge, none of them made available the full content of the letter to allow their readers to form their own opinion about the letter. Subsequently, the FIA published the letter because of the mischaracterizations of the content of the letter.

A number of comments posted here went on about the saga from last year involving McLaren and Ferrari. The idea put forward that because the media mislabeled the affair as Spygate that McLaren did nothing wrong because there were no actual spies or spying involved is laughable. The twisted logic continues with the suggestion that Ferrari should have been fined for having their information taken. That's like suggesting a woman who has her purse stolen because she left it unattended in her shopping cart at the grocery store, should be thrown in jail for theft because, afterall, she could have limited the chances of it being stolen by being more careful.

I admire the pluckiness of those who still try to convince those that think McLaren was treated unfairly last year by reminding them of the facts through the links they provided. However, the sad fact is it is probably just a waste of time as those doubters of McLaren's guilt ignored all the evidence at the time it was initially released, so it is just as likely that they will continue to do so now.

[Verbal]

F1-Insider - you are one of the people around hear whom when you put you mind to it, now and again you can come up with reasoned postings and convincing arguments but like Massa (or the Frech rugby team) rather irratic and we never know which side is going to turn up some time you do let your passion cloud your judgement.
Anyone who still believes McLaren were innocent in the whole spying saga can convince themself of anything and perhaps should re-read the court transcrips and the some links given by some people above.
The poor sods have even ended up with a long wheel base and guess what they have the "slow corner" and other problems associated with last years Ferrari.

[Verbal]

P.S - I hear Alonso actually has an exit contract which gags him from discousing spygate

[Dale]

Weasel
Excellent you hit the nail on the head. Corrupt FIA absolutely, MaFIA just about sums it all up to me and all this with formula one's blue ribboned event just a few days away the whole thing is mindboggling. What a disgrace those in charge are allowing this to happen.

[Jordi]

Stelmara: "...I have not seen or read anything where anyone from Mclaren has actually admitted doing any wrong doing"

That's true, and applies to anything that Maclaren and Ron Dennis do, anything.

Mosleyitis: I understand that many people in Brittan are suffering from that condition, it affects the ability to see clearly and it increases the need to control other people sexual behaviour, but let’s be clear and honest. The cause of this infection is not Max sexual preferences but the $100 million fine. That has become even clearer after reading the opinions of Parker, stelmara and others.

There is only one treatment, and that is preferential treatment for McLaren to win this year.

And last but not least, The M15 news is just the top of the Iceberg, can’t wait to see who is behind the all thing.

[Gary M]

@ McLaren Treated Badly?

"ignorant, imbecilic remarks"

Sorry dude but that is something that could be leveled at you! Just because McLaren made the apology is does not mean for a minute they really believed they were guilty. Are you really that naive?

They had been taken to the cleaners by Max Mosley, they had been put through months of hell and pressure at a time they should have been developing a new car. The pressure from Sponsors and from Mercedes must have been immense.

It would be entirely understandable if McLaren decided to do whatever it took to put an end to the matter and quickly as possible. This was what the apology was all about.

How is it that all we hear from people on this subject is about McLaren? Why does nobody ever mention Renault who were found guilty of the exact same charge as McLaren but were not fined a penny?

How about Ferrari who's own employee gave their "secrets" to a McLaren employee, ever heard of entrapment?

It is important to know that McLaren were not found guilty for actually using any Ferrari information. They were fined for being in possession of it only. Lawyers from both sides could not find any evidence that McLaren were using any of this information.

If there was really a case to answer, if there was really proof of wrongdoing why on earth would Ron Dennis still be there?

Don't talk to us about the British Press, and ALLMAN talking about the Empire!!??!!?? Give me a break ALLMAN, you really do not have a clue. What has this got to do with the British Empire?

I read newspapers that give me the facts i need to know in order to make my own mind up. I do not rely on newspapers that tell me what I should be thinking, I have seen enough Spanish newspapers to know the difference.

[Adele]

Mclaren treated badly?

Come on it is more like: Ferrari treated badly!

Sometimes you wonder who the "real" victims was.

If the roles was reversed and Mclaren were really the victims, then I just could have imagined the outcry.

Come it is 2008, a new season lets move on!

[Anon]

"If Mclaren were guilty then so too were Ferrari and Renault and that’s just what we know about bet there is loads more that we don’t know about."

Come on. Renault didn't do anything bad, the FIA had to fully recogniz that they did EVERYTHING possible to purge themselves of the information they received. To the contrary, McLaren did nothing. Alonso came out (for whatever motives, they are irrelevant) with the info. Therefore, Renault deserved to be let free while McLaren eserved punishment. I don't have enough personal knowledge to judge the intensity of the punishmnent.

And Ferrari? Are you talking about their illegal tech in Australia? Well, there is a difference between thatand getting info from an opposing team. And why do you care so much, since if McLaren had not screwed up inHungary (courtesy of the Hamiltons, as they reporte the incident which allowed McLaren to get a huge punishment, while Lewis infringed the team rules FIRST) and if they hadn't cheated, they would have won the WCC, illegal tech or not.

And to those who say McLaren weren't stealing because they gifted info, come on. THat's like a Louvre security guard offerring you the real Mona Lisa and you accepting it. You're still stealing.

[F1-Insider]

Andyps
Agreed, obviously a highly intelligent man.
Verbal
What you (and a few others) do not seem to understand is the point Andyps made, this being that the FIA is no normal court and in truth should not be referred to as a court.
Had the Mclaren case been held in a court outside of the control of the FIA and all the evidence was heard and looking at the FIA rules then Mclaren would not have been found guilty of using Ferrari information on their cars.
Of course they were guilty of a technical breech of the rules, but so were Ferrari and so were Renault.
Justice is not where one person is the prosecutor, judge and jury is it?
I except many out there will not accept that McLaren are anything but guilty and in any case unless the whole spygate is re-examined by a proper court that's the way it will stay (lets wait for Stepney's book).
No point in me labouring on this point any more as my views are now known but I can say that there are many people who work in F1 agree with my sentiments and the only reason they have not come out and said so on the record is because of the same reason that none (Ed can you tell us differently) of the journalists challenged Mosley during their dinner and that is how Mosley's FIA is run which brings me back to topic and amplifies the many reasons why Mosley is not a fit person the head the FIA.

On the longer wheelbase car, that was hardly a secret was it (this was known at their first test of 2007)? let's enjoy the season and see how it pans out.

F1 and passion go hand in hand:-)

[andyps]

re: Anon

I didn't realise that printing documents from discs and putting the printouts on the desks of senior engineers constituted "purging", you obviously have a very different interpretation of that word to mine.

Similarly, why was an offence punished by the FIA when a team had an internal issue between their two drivers which affected only themselves? It is always difficult to avoid comparisons with the red team, but when one car slowed down on the track to allow another to pass there was no punishment, so once again there was inconsistency from the FIA.

Re: Jordi

Yes, in my view Mosley should have gone because of the McLaren Ditch Stunt, yes, he should have gone because of the allegations revealed by the News of The World which have meant he cannot do much of his job fully. But I was convinced that he should have gone a long time before either of those incidents. There was the debacle of a US grand prix with only 6 competitors, there was the sale of the TV rights for 100 years without offering it to tender and the receipt of a paltry sum from the beneficiary of the rights. I could go on, but hopefully you get my point.

[Dale]

@ Anon
Renault didn't do anything wrong! From what I have read they had secret McLaren drawings on several of their computers and several of their staff have admitted looking at the information so I cannot accept that they did nothing wrong.
According to what I have read McLaren didn't have any Ferrari drawings on any of their computer for sure something isn't right.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

ANDYPS

"Please can explain why I think it is English companies who are above the law? That seems totally irrelevant here, we are not talking about law, we are talking about the FIA."

Please tell me where I stated that you claimed that English teams above the law. If you are unable to do so then please have the decency to retract your comments.

Incidentally, if you want to talk about teams not being punished for one of its cars slowing to let the other past, cast your mind back to Jerez '97 and Melbourne '98. In the former case, two teams were involved.

As for your tacit assertion that Ferrari cheated in Australia last year, are you aware that McLaren and Red Bull were also required to change the design of their floorboards? Are you prepared to accuse these teams of running an illegal car?

GARY M

My comment about ignorant, imbecilic remarks were made in relation to the claim by ANDYPS that,

"Anyone who can't see that is either:

a. a FIArri supporter
b. an Alonso supporter
c. blind, deaf and dumb."

This remark was totally baseless and infantile.

As for me being ignorant and imbecilic, or naïve, can all of you in the ‘Righteous Ron can do no wrong’ camp please explain why McLaren did not inform Ferrari immediately that it had almost 800 pages of Ferrari documentation in its possession and suspend any employee who had been found to use the information contained within? Furthermore, if McLaren did no wrong, and really is a team of principles, why didn't it bite the bullet and refrain from releasing a grovelling apology?

With respect to Renault escaping punishment, I think you should recall that McLaren initially escaped punishment. It was only when further information came to light (which it is alleged that Alonso passed on to Ecclestone) that a second hearing was held and McLaren was handed a punishment.

I would advise you against forming an opinion based on reading the newspapers that give you the facts as these publications are clearly lacking all of the facts.

Dude, you have demonstrated yourself to be both ignorant and naïve!

[Stelmara]

Reading this blog this morning things morning I'm amazed how the unjust McLaren case has all but taken over recent comments. As pointed out the McLaren saga, the Renault case, The Toyota non case. The USA Grand Prix, the unbelievable 100 year deal (still can't believe that one), the spanking, whipping and alleged Nazi style orgy, the dictatorial presentational regime, the alleged problems with the CRH (CVC/Ecclestone) and of course bringing F1 into disrepute.
The top event in F1 is only days away yet all that we are discussing is the spanker Mosley situation. I hope that the ITV reporters will have the balls to put some direct questions on camera to those they talk to at the Grand Prix this weekend and let’s see if any of those asked has the balls to give an honest and open answer (bets please).
What a total sham this whole thing is, an absolute sham and if shows not a single person in a good light. Right is always right and wrong is always wrong, maybe those involved in the F1 circus should remember that.
I have to say that there are some pretty good posts on spanker Mosleyitis and most provide a good read but surely there can be not a single person that really, honestly still believes that the spanker should stay as president of the FIA and I reckon the silly comments from the liberal types (you know who you are) are just a wind up as right is always right.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

Please accept my apologies ANDYPS.

I attributed a quote to you which was actually made by A PARKER.

I am very sorry about this.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

ANDYPS

Former Ferrari employees took software with them to Toyota and used this software whilst at Toyota. The quality of the results that these individuals obtained was only as good as the quality of the data that were inputted into the software. McLaren employees, on the other hand, had access to detailed information relating to the 2007 Ferrari, which internal communications demonstrate were being referred to.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

F1-INSIDER

"However well any organisation is it is impossible to know what everyone is doing at every single second of every day when they are at work or at home, do you understand this? It is impossible."

The FIA had no trouble finding out what had been going on inside of McLaren, did it?

[D]

^
Ed >

Poor you, having to pursue this story at the same time as you have to hop around the world, in and out of 'planes, hotels and Paddocks, to report on the racing, while all the time giving everybody their thrice a day fix on here, seven days a week, come what may.

Never in your wildest dreams, I imagine, could you possibly have thought when you took on the post of Motor Racing Correspondent at The Times that you would find yourself starting a piece with:

"MI5 was accused last night of failing to vet recruits properly after it emerged that one of its surveillance officers was married to a prostitute who exposed Max Mosley's involvement in a sado-masochistic orgy."

You've been bloody heroic this year, mate, and watching you grow in stature and confidence with every succeeding race, since you came to the subject with the wariness of being a newcomer in a complex "sport", has been a very great pleasure.

Have a great time in Monaco; you deserve it!

[F1-Insider]

McLaren Treated Badly?
Now you are being silly. As no drawings were found on any Mclaren computer and yet drawings were openly installed and viewed on Renault's computers maybe if the same forensic investigation that was carried out on Mclaren (where still no Ferrari data was found on Mclaren's computers) they would have found an awful lot more at Renault (it's all about who you know)!
You are very selective on the information you choose to look at.
You are of course entitled to your views (even if they are wrong) so enjoy.

[andyps]

re: McLaren Treated Badly

As you have, I apologise for wrongly attributing the statement:
"It's also very sad to see British fanatics supporting McLaren and Dennis just because they think that British are above laws. That says a lot about the pathetism of their country and how they think they can do wathever they want without a punishment, like in the good (and full of terrible atrocities) old days of the Empire."
to you as it was actually ALLMAN who said it. I stand by my comments, however.

In terms of Toyota/Ferrari there was obviously a view that Toyota did benefit from the information as Ferrari launched a legal complaint which led to the imprisonment of two Toyota employees who had previously been Ferrari employees. Maybe you know something I don't, but it seems strange that the FIA did not get involved in this like they did with McLaren. That is one reason why it would be easy to think there was a ditch stunt.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

F1-INSIDER

You must forgive me, as I am a mere member of the public who has to rely on information provided by others. However, you, with your tacit insider's insight, are either being selective with the information that you post, or fail to comprehend fundamental issues.

You WRONGLY claimed that McLaren did not make a public apology.

You FAIL to acknowledge that McLaren management was, at best, grossly incompetent in auditing the use of the Ferrari documents that had been obtained by its staff. You don’t acknowledge that McLaren could have done things differently.

You don't seem to be willing to comment on the content of the report by the FIA Technical Department.

You have made COMPLETELY BASELESS speculation about Renault. Perhaps you should be consistent and speculate in a similar manner about McLaren. Otherwise, concentrate on what are the established facts.

You have neglected to mention that in the days leading up to the 'Renault hearing', factually-dubious information was ‘leaked’ regarding the data that Renault had in its possession. Who was credited as being the source of this? A former magazine editor who now works for a (purportedly) gentlemanly F1 team. Nobody, to my knowledge, has denied this. Perhaps you could offer further insight on this matter. If the allegation is true, you could also share with us your opinion on the integrity of an organisation who would employ such an individual.

ANDYPS

Apology accepted. I don't think that it was intentional, and you are one of the few posters who has been able to continually express your opinion without resorting to childish remarks. Again I give my apologies for my error.

With regards to the Toyota issue, my understanding for the difference in outcomes is that there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that Toyota's design was being influenced by the design of a Ferarri. Thus, it was a matter between the two manufacturers. In the McLaren case, the FIA concluded that McLaren was directly using Ferrari data to improve the performance of its own car, and thus could have potentially have an unfair advantage.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

“Is the Ferrari wheelbase an accurate figure? Did it come from photos or our mole?”

These questions appeared in an email sent from one Senior McLaren Engineer to another. My reference is point 55 of ‘Report by the FIA Technical Department to the World Motorsport Council – 5 December 2007’.

Vodafone McLaren Mercedes did not deny that this correspondence took place, and, to my knowledge, offered no explanation for it.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

Further to my previous message to ANDYPS

In one instance, an organisation was using software obtained illegally from elsewhere, in the other an organisation was found to be using data obtained from a rival to potentially influence its own design. This is my understanding, and it could be wrong.

I am not a lawyer, so am not in any way qualified to reach these conclusions. Then again, the same can be said for a large number of people who have offered their expert/inside opinions on these matters.

[Verbal]

F1-Insider
We do appreciate the FIA - hearings are not a court in the conventional legal sense however it is commonly refered to as a court which to a large extent it is because:
1.The proceedings are conducted in an european law style
2.The legal represententives a hghly qualified qualified advocates/barristers
3.Contrary to what you say there is not only one judge,prosecuter and jury, there is a proper panel of adjudicators (about 18) from different countries and motoring bodies.

Mclaren were reminded at the last hearing of thier perogative to an appeal either to the FIA court of appeal or to a Criminal court in either england of Italy where the two teams are respectivly based.

If this case had been tried in a convensional court as you sudgest, a greater fine would have been impossed.
Ian Mill (QC) leading silk in interllectuall property, Commercial litigation and sports law - McLarens Legal Rep - this fellow is emensly intelligent if there was any argurment to exornarate Mclaren you bet this guy would come up with it and he explored all avenues by there is such a thing as flogging a dead donkey.

Maybe you are cleverer than Ian Mill and Prof.Amodio put togather, lets talk interms of specific articles and charges leveled, which one do you dispute and think would not standup in her majesty's court...enlighten us.

[Stelmara]

@ McLaren Treated Badly?
I think you need some chocolate mate, I've heard fruit and nut is good;-))
Seems to me like you can't see what others are saying and I for one think some flipping good arguments have been made in favour of McLaren.
I think you are now just flogging a dead horse and trying to wind a few people up.
Every time you say FIA I say Mosley, in my take on the McLaren case it was certainly a ditch hunt by one man and one man alone with the sheep following behind as they do.
As has been said the FIA/Mosley court is not a court in any real sense, maybe you should ask yourself why the FIA/Mosley operate this way, what do they know that genuine legal systems don't????????
Hope you enjoy your fruit and nut.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

STELMARA

Please inform me what I have stated about the pro-McLaren arguments here that is incorrect.

You appear to have become constipated on the 'Righteous Ron can do no wrong' information that you have been fed. Flush your system with laxatives and then feed on the facts!

It is posters such as yourself who are flogging a dead horse, as McLaren issued an apology and stated that it wishes to move on. Why can’t you?

[F1-Insider]

Verbal
A little story about a friend of mine: BSE (Bovine spongiform encephalopathy - Mad Cow Disease) was first discovered at the central veterinary laboratories in Surrey and after a few more bovine brains had been analysed together with other data available it was deed that the source of the infection was in fact the particular food pellets the animals were being fed.
Change the food pellets and over time BSE would disappear. The interesting point about this story is that during the out break exports of our beef ceased to the rest of Europe as they didn’t want their cattle cross infected, never mind their people.
France didn’t have BSE, Germany didn’t have BSE and neither did Holland etc. My friend the scientist thought this rather strange as in many instances the same food pellets were fed to cattle of these countries and more so why no cases of BSE?
Over time a few cases appeared in Holland and so on and a few years back a case was also discovered in Finland of all places (Finland have very little cattle).
Now why is this, could it be to do with the fact that when BSE were first identified at the central veterinary laboratories in Surrey that the UK actively started looking for nit whereas other countries didn’t look anywhere near as hard, if at all?
The moral of this story is the harder one looks the more one will find and had the FIA carried out a forensic audit of the F1 grid as they did Mclaren then more things would be discovered than anyone here could possibly imagine.
Sometimes it takes time for stories to be told and sometimes secrets are never told but often they are so we’ll all just have to wait.

What you say about the FIA and their court I say even Zimbabwe (funny Zimbabwe has been mention a lot of times since the spanking scandal broke, now why should that be) has courts but I would fancy being tried there, would you?

This really is me done on the Mclaren case as it’s pointless continuing, others will just have to make their own judgements and whilst doing so recall what Martin Bundle said and he is no ones prisoner, look where that’s got him (it’s reported the he fully expected not to be granted a press pass – the power of spanking watches over all aspects of F1).

As an aside I hope we see Marin at the BBC in 2009 as he is an excellent correspondent.

[Jordi]

To those that keep lying expecting that we all have forgotten about the true.

Here you have how McLaren DID use the information from Ferrari, that was not only given to them, but it was served on demand:

On 21 March 2007 Mr De la Rosa wrote to Coughlan: "Hi Mike, do you know the red car's weight distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro. ps I will be in the simulator tomorrow." Mr De la Rosa confirmed that Coughlan replied by text message with precise details.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/sep/15/motorsports.sport1

Mclaren was finned for spying and using that information, as simple as that.

Get over it and sack RD.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

F1-INSIDER

It is a shame to see you throw in the towel. I was looking forward to you providing evidence which refutes my remarks. Is this pseudo-intellectual drivel that you serve up a ruse for your inability to offer any?

It seems that, on the one hand, you are claiming that McLaren did nothing wrong, whilst, on the other hand, you seem to imply that all teams are involved in unscrupulous activities. (This, I presume, would include those noble souls at McLaren that you seem intent on defending?)

Please, before you go, offer your thoughts on the misinformation relating to Renault, and the integrity of a team who would employ the individual responsible for this action!

p.s. I agree(!) that Martin is a great commentator, and it would be a shame to see him go.

[Verbal]

F1-Insider - You started this one and you cant just ditch and run like that so here goes my response:
I hear your analogy and what you say about other teams but we were specifically discussing McLaren v Ferrari case so weather Renault or Toyota had a smaller or bigger case to answer is really besides the point, if you wish to open a debate on those specific teams or the grid as a whole then fair enough but you aren't a stupid guy are assume by muddying the waters at this late stage you maybe waving a white flag and saying you may have been over enthusiastic in your defense.
It most emberrassing at times how respectable people like Brundle (he worked hard to gain that respect, remember when he first joined Murry) spring up to defend fellow english men or teams when its clearly wrong or unneccessary.
How can you say its a witch hunt when emails, text messages and dossiers have been found, engineers and drivers admite to having access to private data. So Alonso and Pedro just decided among themselves to develop the car and were manufacturing parts, filling tires with different types of gas all off their own back and without any senior McLaren people knowing ? OK forgive me if I find that one hard to believe.
Thanks for re-opening one of my favourit subjects, favourity because I find it SO FUNNY that even in an open-and-shut case like this there are people who refuse to see the obvious. Who says there's no more blind faith ...even the educated, clever, intelligent and supposedly open minded have it...You see INSIDER, this is what passion can do to you....Next stop MONACO any predictions ?

[Anon]

didn't realise that printing documents from discs and putting the printouts on the desks of senior engineers constituted "purging", you obviously have a very different interpretation of that word to mine.

Similarly, why was an offence punished by the FIA when a team had an internal issue between their two drivers which affected only themselves? It is always difficult to avoid comparisons with the red team, but when one car slowed down on the track to allow another to pass there was no punishment, so once again there was inconsistency from the FIA."

1.) Renault denounced themselves to the FIA. They decidd o go report themselves immediately so as to prove there was no intentional misdemeanor and that they wanted to clear their name and had no intent o look a McLaren. If they did not denounce themselves, then who did?

2.) THe second paragraph I don't really get what you are talking about. You're taling about Hungary but I don't really get what inconsistency youe talking about.

3.)To Dale: the story from what I remember is very different I'm afraid. McLaren had a lot of info-on computer I do believe, and if it was on paper, who cares? They accepted it from a Ferrari engineer when they knew they should not have. Again, they acepted the real Mona Lisa from a Louvre security guard. THey knew wha they were doing. It's not like they didn't know who Couglan ws (or was Stepney the Ferrari engineer and Coughlan the McLaren mech? Either way...).

Renault did the same mistake, except this MECH WAS ON THEIR TEAM. He moved to it and then brought along McLaren info. THey then reported it to the FIA to insure their innocence. They alsosupended the guy. What else could they have done better? Better yet, why didn't McLaren do something along the same lines? You have to be pretty generous in your faith to believe Ron Dennis didn't know this was happenin. You (in general, not Dale specifically) that Ferrari bought McLaren to court before the final rndering- and so Ron Dennis had to have a solid idea of what was happening, and must have been suspicous. Bt this is considering that he actually was no behind spygate. I doubt that he actually did not see info pass through his test driver and one of his rea drivers that was leaked to him by a prominent engineer! He must have known about it (and i beliee he was the mastermind behind this. This is epculation, but I do't see Stepney, ALonso, and de la Rosa putting in extra hours cuz' they really wanna beat Ferrari).

I'm sort of in a mumble here. I trying to remember hard what happened exactly, but I think we should remember this:

1.) McLaren did not intentionaly denounce itself.
2.) Renault intentionally denounced itself to show it had no intention of circulating info.
3.) Briatore had seen wht happened to McLaren. He would have thoughttwice before risking another spy scandal which would cost his smaller team a lot of funds.
4.) Coughlan was a Ferrari engineer giving info to McLaren. McLaren knew who he was and wat they were doig.
5.) Macereth (or whatever his name is) was transferring to Renault. He brought some foloppies with him from McLaren. Upon Renault's discovery of what he doing, he ws suspended and reported to the FIA.
6.) Ron Dennis must have known what was happening in his team. If he didn't, then he deserves the punishment for not being on top of his team. Briatore found one lone engineer who spread some info with some other mechs without the permission of higher authority. Ron Dennis supposedly couldn't find out that illegal info was being transferred even though 1.) these carges had been brought up aganst him, and 2.) Two of is drivers, on prominent engineer, and who knows else knew where emaling each oter about it.

I'm in a hurry and these aren't complete thoughts. Back with more if necessary.

[Adele]

Mclaren where actually lucky, the rules where stretched for them time and time again, during the spy drama. Max Mosley actually saved them from being expelled this year. Most people only seem to look at parts of the story and in turn miss the bigger picture.

- At first when the Spy scandal broke out, everyone denied any knowledge of it.

- Then it came out that Mclaren only seeked some clarification on Ferrari's floor.

- Then it emerged that they actually have a 780 page dossier in their possession. (Incidentally the photo shop copier employee, recently stated that one of the things that told him something strange was going on, was when he discovered with the dossier a folded piece of paper. When he unfolded it, it was actually a perfect 1:1 scale model of the F2007.)

- Mclaren's first defense was that they were actually "whistleblowers", doing their faithful duty.

- After they realized that the "whistle-blowing" argument was growing thin, by the discovery of the dossier, they suddenly changed their story. They started to promise and swear that only one employee ever looked at the documents and only he knew of the existence of the documents.(Employment purposes)

- When the first meeting of the FIA took place Mclaren received no punishment, while they were found guilty of possession (this punishment of course set the trend for the Renault case). Mclaren's main defence was still that only one employee had the document for personal purposes, and thus it is not a corporate crime. Which is partly why they have been left of the hook.

- Then of course the email saga came to light, and the correspondence of Alonso and De la Rosa came to the fore front with more information then just the dossier.

- Which in turn prompted the extraordinary meeting. Keep in mind that Mclaren suddenly back tracked again. It was visible to everyone that obviously more people where aware of the information. But Mclaren changed their story again, this time they claimed that they didn't gain any advantage because of the information, and it was only three people in the organization that knew about the the information.

- Making such a claim was a bit dubious when you take into consideration that some of the information was being applied to their simulator.

- However, what really sealed their fate was the "live" information. That is the various communications that took place between Stepney and Coughlan; sms's, telephone calls and emails (this is also the part that can be constituted as spying). Passing on continuous updated information and clarification on existing information, was the problem. In other words not only does your competitors gain access to the secrets of your product but they gain knowledge on how to use and adapt the product, and of course there was the strategic information.

- Mclaren were founded guilty this time round, but they where still able to go on with their bid for the drivers championship. (A decision, many people found a bit conspicuous.)

- As part of their punishment there was to be a probe into the design of the MP4-23. It was made very clear in advance that should there be any traces found of the F2007 they would be banned from competing. Keep in mind that their main defence was still that they didn't gain an advantage and that they didn't incorporate any Ferrari designs into their car.

- Most people where certain that it was only going to be a procedural inspection of the car. Ferrari and Mclaren fans alike were convinced that noting would really be found.

- But as it were there was some designs incorporated of Ferrari into the MP4-23, and it was clear from communication within the team that much more people knew about the Ferrari information.

- Remember that they were originally strictly warned against this, and the original punishment was exclusion from the 2008 season.

- But Mclaren were let off the hook, with only a written public apology. (While they have been switching, arranging and telling tall tales to the public throughout the year.)

If you look at the case as a whole there is clearly a pattern that follows. In summary:

-Mclaren has gone through the whole 360 degrees: At first they knew noting, then they were whistleblowers, then only one employee was involved for personal reasons, then there were only three employees involved, then they didn't gain any advantage from the information, then they didn't incorporate any information into their cars, then much more people knew about the information and some of the information was incorporated in their design of the MP4-23 and finally we got the apology.

- Anyone that frequently needs to revise their "story" so much are hiding something because they are guilty. (How do you think, these actions look from a Ferrari perspective?)

With that Mclaren were also systematically left off the hook at various stages. Again a summary:

- First meeting: Found guilty, but no punishment however, left with a warning should there be any new information they would be punished.

- Second meeting: Found guilty - punished, but the drivers are still allowed to continue their championship campaigns. Left with a warning should there be any Ferrari designs incorporated in their 2008 car.

- Third meeting: Found guilty, no punishment left off the hook with a public apology.

One thing that is obvious, is that Mclaren had plenty of warning beforehand (surely enough time to clean house?). The fact that they continuously get caught out after clear warnings, makes them almost arrogant in a sense. Why did they keep on perpetrating? Did they think they wouldn't be caught out, or did they think they wouldn't be punished in any case?

Don't get me wrong I'am glad Mclaren are competing this year and I'am glad they are part of the ever decreasing grid (being such a historical team and all). But for all the warnings, Mclaren were left off lightly after consistently being found guilty or digging themselves a deeper hole.

Ferrari hasn't always been right in in the past, but most of the Ferrari fans are willing to admit as much. I understand that people are passionate about their team and go far to support their teams, which is part of every sport.

But this continuous denial and justification, of any wrong doing on the part of Mclaren is detrimental and a bit unfair.

Mclaren is an organisation made up of people, people make mistakes. Just be a man and admit that Mclaren might have been wrong or just keep quiet it you cant do that, and most importantly lets just all move on: this is 2008 the new season is already in full swing...

[Dale]

To F1-Insider

Blimey BSE (Bovine spongiform encephalopathy - Mad Cow Disease)I think F1 is suffering from a bad case of, MPM (Mad Pervey Max) at the moment.

I see that Ecclestone and CVC are writing a letter to all the voting delegates to counter the claims made in Mosley's letter. Nice to see the build up for the grand prix is going smoothly.

On Mosleyitis I think, without a shadow of a doubt that Mr Molsley is a 'spanker' and I agree that there was a (edit)against McLaren.

[Bojan]

Browsing through various figures related to Mosley's doing which were published these days I suddenly noted an interesting and amusing bit. He managed to sell to Bernie the F1 commercial rights for a century at a price of about 250 million dollars and to Ron a "one year" fine at a rate of 100 million dollars.
I gather this clearly demonstrates that Mosley might be quite a good salesman to deal with a single team or on a similar level, maybe as an assistant to Bernard E., however Mosley's commercial capacity seems to be far bellow the standards required for dealing at the level of an FIA president.
If Mosley opened up a discount store it might be worth paying a visit to check out his pricing. He may well be offering a bargain or two. :-)

[Derek Smith]

Anyone who considers RD or McL corporate were guilty of anything dishonest or unsporting (in the context of the F1 pitlane norm) should read:

http://www.wired.com/cars/coolwheels/magazine/16-06/ff_formulaone

A very readable and concise (3000+ words) resume.

Not for the prejudiced though, so I shouldn't bother Jordi.

But the most remarkable bit of news is the opening salvos between MM and Eccs. I wondered if I'd misread MM's Friday letter as it seemed to me to be an attack on his friend and mentor, the kingmaker Ecclestone. But Ecc's reply, carried in the Times today (21 May) was a very strong slap down.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3972611.ece

You must read it.

MM's tactics up until now have been sound and steady, if a little predictable (although that's not much of a criticism I suppose) but Friday's letter, which must have been written under advice of his 'team', is opening a new front. I can understand MM wanting to muddy the waters and to bring in subjects other than his fitness to perform the role, but to attack Eccs so publicly seems to me to be a risky move and in direct contrast to his strategy.

And just before Monaco. The danger is that the race and the king will become a mere sideshow to the big battle between the giants.

There's obviously much of this which is not common knowledge.

On reading MM's letter I could not help but think that he is setting up another partnership to run F1 in direct conpetition to Ecc's CVC.

It's confusing me.

[gordon]

Jordi, who is going to sack Ron? Mercedes Benz cant- they only own 40% of the shares, and anyway they dont want to. The King of Bahrain cant-he only owns 30% of the shares and he doesnt want to either, Mansour Ojjeh cant- he only owns 15% of the shares and, guess what, he doesnt want to either. The other shareholder is Ron himself, and he doesnt want to sack himself.

Personally I dont believe Ron was actually aware that the Ferrari info was circulating within McLaren until Alonso tried to blackmail him with the knowledge at Hungary last year. This might seem slack and maybe it is but McLaren is a big company and Ron has a lot to do. He is after all CEO of the McLaren group. Also dont forget that as soon as Ron learned that Alonso and De La Rosa had received and used the Ferrari info he informed the FIA himself.
And still McLaren got hit with the biggest fine in sporting history.

[KoJ Finland]

Hello again
A must read,see http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34866
The scandal steals the headlines again. CVC and Ecclestone have so much money tied up as the CRH of formula one that they will stop at nothing to defend their corner against Mosley's accusations so I think we have not seen nothing yet!

Formula one is a business and not a sport and should be run as such. It's only us fans who like to think of it as a sport, that my friends is the reality.

[F1-Insider]

Some excellent posts, those that have responded so passionately on their views of the ‘Spygate’ affair obviously love F1, so hats off to you all .
Those that disagree with my posts are doing so based on the knowledge they have but as far as I am aware they do not have access to all the information (knowledge is everything)!

I have conceded that Mclaren were guilty of a technical breech of the rules but contend so were Ferrari for allowing the information to leak from their team and so are Renault for first accepting the Mclaren date and subsequently loading it onto their computer systems. To my mind one cannot just look at Mclaren and how they were treated, one has to look at others (Renault) etc and compare any punishment with cases that have gone on before

I have a handicap here as I am replying to a few who strongly disagree with my take on ‘Spygate; with one hand tied behind my back and for that reason I really am done with this at this time (I WILL come back to it when information becomes widely known – wait for the book).

The statement made to the Times by Ecclestone is fascinating as it looks like there can be no turning back for either spanky Mosley or Ecclestone. The really interesting thing here is that the two foes know each other so well as both know where all the skeletons are buried. Some of which I suspect will damaging to both of them, this said it may be that one or the other decides to use knowledge that will have a damaging effect on the two of them ensuring neither survives. I think fireworks are about to be lit.

All this with the Monaco Grand Prix days away.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

GORDON

It was Fernando Alonso who informed the FIA, via Flavio and Bernie.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

F1-INSIDER

I understand that you are choosing to ignore key facts, but please, before you go, address the following matter.

Factually-dubious information was ‘leaked’ regarding the data that Renault had in its possession. A former magazine editor who now works for a F1 team was credited with these actions.

With your self-professed enhanced state of enlightenment, please offer further insight on this matter. If the allegation is true, you could also share with us your opinion on the integrity of an organisation who would employ such an individual.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

"McLaren has also written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise that it has taken an FIA investigation to find this information and have expressed our deep regret that our understanding of the facts was improved as a result of the FIA inspection rather than our own investigations. McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures and have apologised unreservedly to the FIA World Motor Sport Council." Martin Whitmarsh, December 2007

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

F1-INSIDER wrote

"To my mind one cannot just look at Mclaren and how they were treated, one has to look at others (Renault) etc and compare any punishment with cases that have gone on before (sic)"

As a number of factually-aware individuals have noted, Renault was treated exactly the same way as McLaren was by the FIA.

F1-INSIDER, is your hand really tied behind your back, or is it being constantly used for some other purpose?

[F1-Insider]

It's noticed that Mosley is reported to have help meetings today with both Ferrari and Renault (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67604)
funny that as these are the two manufacturing teams that have decided not to join the others (Mercedes, BMW, Honda and Toyota)in making any statement regards the Mosley scandal.
After Mosley's letter to the 220 delegates it looks like a lot of jockeying is taking place.

As an aside and just for the record Renault's situation was not the same as Mclaren's as Renault had on their computer systems Mclaren stolen data, Mclaren did not have any Ferrari information on their systems.
I proffer that had Mclaren been found to have Ferrari data on their computer systems (and the FIA looked very hard) when first tried then Mosley's FIA would have thrown the book at them.
There was no question in the Renault case that a) Mclaren data was on their computer systems and b)they acknowledged themselves that several of their engineers looked at and and discussed this information.
When comparing apples with apples one needs to be sure one isn't comparing apples with oranges!

If the FIA court operated on a normal case law basis then I suggest that Renault would not have escaped in the way the did (it's all about who you know)!

[Derek Smith]

From a previous post:

“McLaren has also written to the World Motor Sport Council to apologise that it has taken an FIA investigation to find this information and have expressed our deep regret that our understanding of the facts was improved as a result of the FIA inspection rather than our own investigations. McLaren has recognised that this entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention. We are, of course, embarrassed by the successive disclosures and have apologised unreservedly to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.” Martin Whitmarsh, December 2007.

Unquote.

So what did the Whitmarsh statement actually apologise for?

Well, not finding information which the FIA admitted did not prove that McLaren corporate (ie the company including Ron Dennis but not individuals in it) were aware of Alonso and PdlRosa’s use of the Ferrari set-up information.

There was, of course, no apology for not informing the FIA and Ferrari (really, tell Ferrari. Why?) of the source of the information which proved that Ferrari were blatant in their cheating, that’s Ferrari corporate of course, not just one or two of their staff, with the illegal floor they ran on their car for the first race in 2007. Whilst it does suggest that it could all have been avoided if they had, it should be noted there is no apology included. It should also be noted that they were not penalised for failing to do so either as, one would assume, they were not required to do so. Does anyone consider it was McLaren’s duty to tell Ferrari who their employee was who was expressing discomfort at his team’s cheating ways?

Whitmarsh also states that they were embarrassed by the disclosures but doesn’t specify which. It could be read that as the only, the only, dishonest behaviour proved against anyone in McLaren was against Coughlan, PdlRosa and Alonso (and who is not embarrassed by Alonso’s conduct in this matter) it was they who embarrassed McLaren (and the sport as a whole). Then he says that McLaren have apologised unreservedly to the FIA. This last bit is, of course, quite damming.

However, let’s examine McLaren’s ‘unreserved’ apology.

“. . . we do not agree with all of the conclusions that have been drawn” although they accept that “the central conclusion that some pieces of Ferrari information may have been disclosed via Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan, directly or indirectly to individuals within McLaren other than Pedro de la Rossa and Fernando Alonso.”

They say they do not agree with ‘all’ the conclusions. Guess which ones they don’t agree with. And then they say, rather cleverly, that the ‘central conclusion’ ie the main one, the one they were fined so heavily for, a world record fine that would have crippled a lesser team, may be right. The ‘may’ means, of course, that there is no proof of it. And, equally obviously, implicit in the word ‘may’ is that it may not as well. Unreserved? I don’t think so.

After a finding of, well, not guilt as even the FIA agreed there was no evidence, McLaren should have admitted full liability. That’s the rules. If they did not they would have been excluded from 2008. So McLaren took a big risk by not doing so. It showed bottle. It stuck two fingers up to the FIA. Eventually, though, even Max Mosley had to concede that McLaren corporate had no knowledge of the use of the set-up information by Alonso and PdlRosa.

It should also be noted that despite sorting through nearly 1.5 terrabits of data and 20-odd computers, the FIA investigators were unable to find any data from the 780 pages of technical info from Ferrari.

The worst that McLaren is guilty of is lack of supervision of staff. However, if that is worth $100 million, how much should Ferrari be fined for their lack of supervision of their senior staff member.

The collusion between Coughlan and Stepney over the 780-page document was for reasons that have not been disclosed as yet. It was certainly not for the benefit of McLaren. The only info anyone in McLaren, apart from Coughlan, was privy to was the set-up information. Really quite minor stuff. And even then it was only PdlRosa and Alonso. And there may or may not have been someone else, although no one knows who this person may or may not be.

And just to clarify one wildly inaccurate post: it was Ron Dennis who informed Max Mosley about the addition information that caused all the problems and the $100 million fine. This was as a result of Alonso bringing his dishonesty to the attention of RD. Alsonso returned after a few minutes to apologise for his behaviour, which has been reported as threats and blackmail, and withdrawn some of the things he said, RD then informed him that he had already told the FIA via Max Mosley.

There are four people who come out of this scenario with little or no credit: Stepney who, as the source and originator of the confidential, betrayed a trust and, it would seem, betrayed a friend as well; Coughlan for, at the very least, not exercising proper judgement; Alonso for a variety of reasons, lack of loyalty being one; and Max Mosley for, in my mind at least, not exercising proper judgement. Had he dealt with the matter properly and proportionately it would now be dead and buried.

There will be books written about Stepneygate but what is clear and unequivocal is that at no time has McLaren as a company been found guilty of any dishonest behaviour. The original information, of the illegal floor Ferrari were using, was disclosed to the FIA and it was, to McLaren at least, sourced from a concerned whistle-blower. All the other information went, it would appear, from Stepney to Coughlan and then Alsonso and PdlRosa, both of whom have admitted that they realised the information was sourced from a Ferrari insider.

The FIA’s report is quite clear on the matter. Their conclusion is unequivocal: there is no proof that McLaren corporate were aware of the set-up information being used nor that anyone in McLaren, other than Coughlan, had access to the information in the 780-page document.

We can make guesses of course, and that is the fun of our sport. But what we should not do is let prejudice blind us to the facts. That we don’t know everything is irritating in the extreme but that does not mean speculation should be given as the truth.

I, of course, could be wrong in my reading of the FIA's report and the comments from various principals in the matter. However, if you want to convince me otherwise, I'd suggest quoting a source.

[Anon]

Remember that Dennis's call to the FIA has notbeen confirmed by Alonso and actually denied by the FIA or Ferrari- but I've forgotgten the details of this case. Let's move on please.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

DEREK SMITH

Either stop this garbage about Ferrari racing with an illegal floor, or be equally forthright in condemning both McLaren and Red Bull for racing with an 'illegal' floor.

[F1-Insider]

Derek Smith

100% correct. If the case had been heard in a proper (non S&M Mosley court) Mclaren would only have been guilty of a technical breech of the rules as I have stated in previous posts.

Most within F1 know what the real position is but they also know that with the current set-up with Mosley's FIA there is nothing Mclaren or they can do about it if they want to be in the F1 game.

That my friend is the difference between knowledge and not quiet so much knowledge because many (maybe not so many) that justice is served at Mosley's FIA.

Anyway, Respect to you (expect the attacks to follow shortly)!

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

DEREK SMITH

"The collusion between Coughlan and Stepney over the 780-page document was for reasons that have not been disclosed as yet. It was certainly not for the benefit of McLaren. The only info anyone in McLaren, apart from Coughlan, was privy to was the set-up information. Really quite minor stuff. And even then it was only PdlRosa and Alonso. And there may or may not have been someone else, although no one knows who this person may or may not be."

You are plain wrong here. If you don't believe me then you really should read the following report (the link to which has already been posted, and the contents of which have already been discussed).

http://www.fia.com/public/mclaren.pdf

In this report you will read of communications that took place between engineering staff at McLaren.

As for your claim that Ron Dennis was responsible for the second hearing, there are many who would beg to differ. Bernie Ecclestone was given Fernando Alonso's Blackberry, some reports claim by Flavio Briatore, and shown the emails between Alonso and De La Rosa.

As you say, we should not let "prejudice blind us to the facts", or in your case incomplete knowledge.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

F1-INSIDER

"...they (Renault) acknowledged themselves that several of their engineers looked at and and discussed this information."

If only McLaren had done likewise before the FIA probe. Martin Whitmarsh subsequently acknowledged that Coughlan was not the only engineering staff member who had access to Ferrari data.

You should also recall that Renault allowed McLaren to investigate its internal systems.

I would still be interested to hear your take on the 'Renault dodgy dossier' which it is alleged (without any denials to date) was issued by somebody who was about to take up an employment posting at McLaren.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

All of you who promote the "McLaren is the most ethical and honest team in F1 line" should take note of the following article.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/bishop.htm

Can anyone ever believe another "we did nothing wrong" claim from McLaren again after being aware of this information?

[Derek Smith]

A brief reply to anon re RD's call:

It was not to the FIA but to Max Mosley, at least this is what RD said. This has not been denied by Mosley and some of his early statements seemed to acknowledge the source of the information was McLaren although he did not, in any report I've seen, name RD. However, his lack of denial seems to indicate that it is correct as he's picked up RD on just about everything else.

I can see no argument that MM was the person whom RD would have to inform after the decision of the previous hearing, difficult though it probably was for the man.

Whilst I accept that we will never know the full details, it does seem clear that RD set the ball rolling.

[Stelmara]

Derek Smith

I agree with you but as F1-Insider (who I also agree with) says expect the attacks from a noisy few;-))

Ron Dennis himself has stated 'on the record' that he contacted spanky Mosley and to what I have read I have never seen a denial of this from the 'spanker'.

McLaren Treated Badly?

Think you need some more fruit and nut mate.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

STELMARA

Double your dose of laxatives!

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

STELMARA

I seem to recall Max Mosley, in the Spa paddock, initially question the remarks made by Righteous Ron. It took a private conversation between the two of them to resolve matters.

Do you have information to prove that Bernie Ecclestone was not shown the contentious emails? I have not heard Bernie deny this claim.

[Stelmara]

@ McLaren Treated Badly?

I have made no reference to the information Mr Ecclestone relived or did not receive. I did make reference to the FACT that Ron Dennis has gone on record stating that he contacted Mr spanky Mosley (OK so I added the spanky bit)!

Reference the laxatives, thanks for the advice but you shouldn't judge others by your own needs :-))

Stella (maybe you find it difficult to see outside the box).

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

STELMARA

You are not just constipated on quasi-McLaren PR statements. Now you are choking on a harmless question.

You said that Righteous Ron set the ball rolling. Others claim that the second McLaren meeting would not have taken place if Alonso had not (either directly or indirectly) passed the contentious emails on to Bernie.

I merely asked you if you can discount the Alonso/Blackberry theory, given your assertion.

For the record, I flushed out all the 'McLaren did nothing wrong' garbage out of my system as soon as I first read it in the more partisan British publications, and have been dieting on the wholesome truth ever since. You could clearly benefit from going on a similar diet.

p.s. I have neither read the NOTW article nor checked its website, but from what I can gather it wasn't Mosley who was doing the spanking.

[McLaren Treated Badly?]

Who thinks that Righteous Ron's squad should have been fined a hefty sum AND suspended as punishment for Megabyte Matt's actions?

[KoJ Finland]

Must read

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34932

How anyone can say tat Mclaren were treated fairly after reading this is a crankpot!

The bit about the removal of the filter, giving MSchuey an unfair advantage for a number of races, was common knowledge after the Verstappen incident. Benetton were caught cheating and in a manner that put members of its own team, staff at the circuit and lots of other people at risk.

The fact that they were not punished for dangerous behaviour - let alone the cheating aspect - was one of many deplorable incidents that were not only common at t