Super Aguri throws in the towel; Mosley fights on

The gap between Spain and Turkey has been flat and now we get the bad news that Super Aguri has gone to the wall. There is a lot of sympathy for the Japanese minnows but spare a thought for Honda which has been behaving like a very benevolent charity for the last 12 months baling out a commercial disaster area.

I understand Honda has handed over £35 million in that time including a final payment of £100,000 to enable Super Aguri to race in Spain - this is serious money in anybody's language and money Honda will never get back. There is some grumbling about the way this largesse was received at Super Aguri but it is probably best not to get into that at this stage.

From a British perspective this all means one less man on the grid which is a pity, especially for Anthony Davidson himself who is a pleasant, modest chap who did pretty well with the tools at his disposal. Takuma was also a popular figure in the paddock and a driver who had his moments.

You might think the loss of two cars is a retrograde step which Formula One can ill-afford. Strangely however Bernie doesn't seem remotely bothered, even if he did expend some energy and time trying to construct a lifeboat for Super Aguri.

On another subject, Max Mosley, as we all know, is well on his way to redefining the concept of "over-staying ones welcome." The latest strategem in his arsenal is the appointment of Anthony Scrivener QC to provide an opinion for the FIA on whether the News of the World was right to describe Mosley's sado-masochistic fantasies as "Nazi-inspired". Mosley's man, Richard Woods, says the appointment was not Mosley's idea but that he may have taken part in discussions about it subsequently with "senior officers" of the FIA                                                                                       

The gameplan here is Mosley's strategy to choose the ground on which to fight his battles. He wants the debate to be about the allegations of Nazism and not whether or not he is a (remotely) fit and proper person to represent the FIA. Why? Because Mosley genuinely seems to believe that most ordinary right-thinking people will have no quarrel with the rest of it - the five prostitutes, the sado-masochism, the prison-camp role play, the personal/private deception and so on. Of course most of the 100 million or so ordinary members of the FIA would be quite happy to know that they are being led by a self-confessed pervert. I think not.

It will be a very bad day for the FIA if its members fall for this on June 3rd. Nothing has changed. Mosley should have resigned immediately to protect the sport and the FIA from damage by association with his personal predilictions which have made him a social and professional embarrassment.

Comments

[Dale]

Well said re spanky Mosley (as referred to on the BBC programme; ‘Have I got news for you’) and the senior officers at the FIA are, just unbelievable (words escape me).
What are these people on? Can there be any right minded person that could possibly disagree with the fact has and the FIA are bringing F1 etc into disrepute?
What is Ecclestone, the so called ringmaster doing?
I cannot fathom why F1 and the other racing formulas don’t form a new body and why the general motor clubs don’t do the same and leave the FIA and the grip of the inept few that run the thing where seedy deals, cronyism and money are their Gods.
It is time for a clean sweep, are their any noble people left in Motor sport? The likes of Williams and Dennis (up till the debacle of last year) were (and still are by many) seen as men of honour and it’s well known that Mosley did his best to all but ruin Williams re customer cars (well done Frank for challenging this) and it is well known that Mosley has a thing about Dennis (what was it he said? ‘not the brightest spark in the paddock’ or something similar).
Come on chaps and the big corporations show some balls and do the right thing.

[JO J]

I return to this blog like the proverbial fly to ....
I knew that EG - our moral leader - would have something to say on the latest news.
I'd like, if I may, to comment on this..
"Of course most of the 100 million or so ordinary members of the FIA would be quite happy to know that they are being led by a self-confessed pervert. I think not."
Well Father Gorman, how do you know that Gordon Brown or the Queen or your local MP is not up to something worse in their spare time?
You don't do you?
The only reason you know what MM does in private is that a colleague of yours in NewsCorp decided it was acceptable to get involved in a private citizen's private life.
Never mind dressing up like a nazi you seem to enjoy The Real Thing.

[Stelmara]

@ Jo J
What on earth are you on?
What was it Mosley said re the Mclaren in the spygate affair, we are not concerned with how the evidence was received just if it is correct (as HE SAW IT though it should be remembered that McLaren have admitted no wrong doing).
As the judge said when giving his judgement on the video on the News of the world website, you can't put it back in the bottle??
The fact is we don't know what Joe Bloggs is doing, if we did it probably would make a difference how we saw any public figure in the job they were doing and we would make a judgement on it.
I now know about how Mosley conducts himself and I no longer feel he is a fit or a morally right person to be the head of the FIA, the global (key word global) body of motor sport and I believe that my view is shared by far the majority of right minded people (I wonder what his wife really thinks)?

[Gary M]

Stelmara, There is no point talking to JO J about anything Formula 1 related, he/she has already admitted they have no interest at all in F1. He/She is here on another agenda.

I am beginning to wonder what JO J's real motives are and who he/she might work for.

JO J, Do you read this blog everyday and wait in hope that another article on Spanky where you can repeat the same old drivel for the 100th time? Despite being constantly told that you are missing the point and do not seem to have a good understanding of the issue at hand you still persist.

[Mr Beezle]

@Jo J
With regards to what goes on behind closed doors such as that of the PM, the Queen, Edward Gorman or even you is non of our concern. If we have any judgement to make about what such people may be up to behind closed doors we must think of them with the principle of charity. We should assume that they practice what they preach - they are people of good moral fibre who are consistent in what they say and what they do.

I would rather be proven wrong than proven right.

The same principal WAS applied to Mr Mosley BEFORE he was caught with his pants down. He has proved that he has, at the least, questionable moral fibre and as a result has shown to the majority of us that we were WRONG about an assumption based on the principle of charity. We cannot 'un-know' what we now know about him as all our assumptions - those we held in the past and those we might hold in the future - have a big element of doubt attached to them.

Like it or not, Mosley's true character has been revealed and to the majority of us, it simply gets in the way of what he was appointed to do in the first place - be a leader worthy or respect at the top of one of the greatest sports we have.

Mosley's game is over.

[Alex]

I cannot understand why Bernie does not seem to care. He must trouser the money they needed each race and for what ?

Max, on the other hand, is on even more of a hiding to nothing, in the name of research I have immersed myself in the world of S&M this last few weeks. Whips, chains, leather, latex and all the kinks you can imagine ... yet still, I cannot find any trace of "inspecting ze hair for ze lice" in anything other than Nazi Concentration Camp scenarios.

No doubt Scrivener QC will have looked into it far more thoroughly and come up with an expensively different, totally unbiased opinion.

[F1-Insider]

Do any of us who follow and know about F1 have any iota
of surprise @ Mosley's & his cronies latest attempt to deflect the issue onto the ground Mosley wishes to fight? I thought not!
Fact: it is impossible for S&M Mosley to do his job when he is banned from Grand Prix's is it not?
Does he now hold any respect in the paddock (maybe Ferrari excepted - self interests me thinks)?

This affair start with S&M Moseley bringing F1 & the FIA into disrepute it has now turned into an unbelievable ongoing saga of a bunch of fools making a bad situation worse & in so doing bringing themselves into disrepute.
Time for a wholesale change and either get rid of ALL the self interested parties at the FIA or simply get rid of the FIA & start over.

As for Jo J all I can say is, get a life!

[Anon]

I think thesetwo events point to the same thing: FOrmula One needs a new government.

Ecclestone/Mosley have done too many mistakes. They've managed to anger just about everybody, and now the fall of Super Aguri will probably discourage many others from entering F1.

Todt really is the man for this job. The man is clever but intelligent enough not to be a Ferrari man. He is good a politics and I can easily see him sell off F1 to other brands.

But it's a sad story. Killing off Mosley won't change enough. CHarlie Whitin, the complicated rules, the overly-complicated rules, Ecclestone- they all have to go. F1 needs a coup like the one that ousted Balestre. We need a democratic government- not one where the two eading figures of the sport come from the same cuntry. The teams and the drivers should have much more of a say in terms of what is more practical-issues like the safety car rule. For commercial usage of F1, we need Peter Sauber and Jean Todt.

[Alfredo Nieto]

The demise of a F1 team has always been bad news, especially when it's one of the small ones... which usually find young, talented drivers who end up in big budgeted teams.

Shame it had to be mixed with yet-another chapter from the Moseley Saga.

Sincerely hope that F1 won't end as a race between two luxury cars manufacturers (Mercedes-BMW) and a threesome of mainstream ones (Toyota, Honda and Renault).

[JO J]

Stelmara - You mention that MM said that he did not care how the evidence was obtained in the Mclaren spygate industrial espionage case.
Without knowing the details I would imagine that it was restricted to technical and business related information gathering, not filming anyone having sex.
But saying that, I would definitley disagree with MM that the way the information was gathered was irrelevant. But having said that... the case was in fact about spying.
Anyway, I've said before, I'm not defending the man nor his sexual tastes, only the principle that a person's private sex life is just that - private and to me the breach of privacy and publication by NOTW is a far greater and universally ominous crime than MM living out his fantasies with consenting adults.
So that's why I keep on bugging you.
I'd like to see people demanding that NOTW is dealt with first.
I'd like to read people debating the way in which they acted.
And this should be done BEFORE dealing with MM.
Because I can see if MM is sacked then the actions and dubious behaviour of NOTW will be seen to be vindicated and further debate stifled regarding the way in which massive organisations can invade an individual's privacy to orchestrate his downfall.
The moral outrage over MM's weird sex life is only valid if you first accept the even more morally outrageous behaviour of a massive organisation infiltrating a person's private life.
The venomous unambiguous judgemental language of the author of this blog reinforces my point.
Mr Gorman seems to have lost his marbles and goes completely over the top in his vitriolic comments and opinions of the way MM conducts himself in the bedroom.
And as many have pointed out - isn't this meant to be a sports blog?

[graham fudger]

Ed - I have to differ with you on this one.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a self confessed pervert. Indeed, in the Twenty First century, such an admission shows self awareness of a kind that actually makes a man fit for most things in life. ( or woman / or any person who prefers to remain gender undefined )

We all have our variants on the sexual theme, and in this instance Max is unfortunate enough to have had his tastes exposed for public consumption without his prior knowledge, which can't have been easy.

Now, that doesn't excuse the prostitution, or his subsequent public comments that such things are completely harmless. ( irrespective of the facts surrounding Max's own happy little arrangement )

But to fire him for being a 'perv' would be absurd.

That said, such debates are pretty much academic anyway - does anybody actually think that Max will be voted out in June ?

Clearly, there are some very naive people in this world - and Max is only one of them...

[JO J]

F1-Insider -
You say that I should "get a life."
That's the crux of this.
It is MY life.
Not YOUR life.
Not NOTW's life.
And that is what is behind all this.
What MM does in his spare time is
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

[Stelmara]

Annon
I agree with most of what you say but strongly disagree that Jean Todt is the man to take over as head of the FIA. Jean Todt is too much associated with Ferrari (where many within F1 and fans believe a number of wrongs have gone strangely unnoticed by the FIA and Mosley).
No, if the FIA are to remain as the governing body of F1 (which I personally hope Formula 1 sees sense and starts afresh with rules that will allow for engineering flare and imagination, and bring back real qualifying so we can all see who really is the fastest driver) a whole change of personnel is needed; it needs new people who are in no way tainted with the old regime so that all the teams will feel happy (if Jean Todt were levered in as both Ecclestone and Mosley want [now why should that be?] I can’t believe all teams would be happy for lots of reasons Ed could probably educate us on).
Reading the various comments on these blogs it’s clear to me that a few liberals are just not able to see the bigger picture and it doesn’t matter what arguments one uses to make the point of Mosley’s unsuitability to remain the head of the FIA and their activities around the world, a world made up of many different cultures, moral codes, laws and religions.
As has been pointed out here Mosley has actually been banned from a FIA Grand Prix event, what more proof do the liberals want that Mosley’s position is untenable (and that’s based on the small amount of evidence we know about, what else is in the tape)?
This topic will not nor can it go away whilst Mosley is in place, even if the vote goes in his favour due to politicking which is blatantly going on as I write, can you imagine the sniggering etc?
As for (blogger) we all know who I will not boost his ego by writing further about him.

[Aaron James]

Sorry Ed, the puritanical preaching is a bit much. Stick to writing about the sport, not imposing your own morals on the rest of society.

As we found out with Max those that seem most morally self-righteous are the ones with 'eccentric' indulgences of their own...

And frankly I don't see how on earth someone's _private_ life effects their professional life. Something Lewis Hamilton (Nurburgring), Kimi Raikkonen (Monza), Kubica (Montreal), and most recently Heikki Kovaleinen can all attest their lives to.

I really used to enjoy this blog, but the sheer sanctimony of your bleatings (and one wonders if it is at the behest of your Shepard) on this topic have sucked all the enjoyment out of the blog :(

[Jonah]

Jo J, your logic is very skewed. You seem to be suggesting that, were we to learn of Gordon Brown hiring prostitutes and role playing "Treblinka - The Highlights" we should turn a blind eye. Sorry, but leaders are meant to behave in a manner which reflects well on the bodies they represent; if the FIA were silly enough to retain Mosley (and I'm sure they won't), they would effectively be telling the world that prostitution and Nazism are OK by them. I'm hopeful that this is not the sort of message they want to be giving the rest of the world, just as - if Gordon Brown were similarly compromised - Britain would demand his immediate resignation.

Mosley may yet clear himself of the Nazism claims (I don't think he's on particularly strong ground), but that leaves him with prostitution and adultery. However one looks at it, he is unfit to represent a mainstream organisation.

[Derek Smith]

Many people seem to be making the excuse for Mosley that what he indulged in was between consenting adults. However, there is little evidence of this.

No women enter prostitution in order to be spanked by 67-year-old wrinklies. Their reasons are varied and many do start with their eyes as wide open as other parts of their anatomy. But it is, unfortunately, a fact that many are forced into prostitution for a variety of reasons: drug dependency, abuse, pimps, the need for quick money, lack of education, lack of ability, and the reasons go on and on. Consent is not a simple concept. Does an abused wife consent to being beaten because she does not leave the matrimonial home?

At £2500 for five women for five hours, we are not talking class of the field here and one would expect that the money was by no means divided evenly amongst the participants. One wonders if all women knew what they were letting themselves in for and if not, did they feel capable of leaving when they found out?

The use of prostitutes often comes into the realm of exploitation of the vulnerable. So lets hear no more about consenting adults. These were not some Stacey and Tracey that were picked up in a bar, nor were they the next door neighbours brought round for a game of Twister. These women indulged in these actions for money. It is possible that some of them felt they had no option but to sell their bodies.

[qed]

The difference between the McLaren and Mosley affairs is that McLaren committed a crime. Mosley did not.

One has to wonder why some people are so obsessed by other people's private sexual fantasies.

[Verbal]

I think Honda should be ashamed of Aguri's exit, they have systematically subotaged that team since last year when Aguri was threatening Honda's pace and the Aguri got into the points before the main team which was emberrasing. NOW Honda grassing on their sister team to the FIA...Oh Nick, its Renault you've got to beat, NOT Aguri

[graham fudger]

Hi Ed - Anybody who wants a little break from the current debate might like to take a look at a novel I'm reading at the moment.

It's called: Imperium ( by Robert Harris )

... a startingly good read for anybody with an interest in historical fiction.

[peter]

JO J..I not care what Spanky Max does for enjoyment Jo J, you are right it's Spankys private business. But I do care about TRUTH, INTEGRITY, HONESTY, HYPOCRISY and RIDICULE.
Max has shown himself to be lacking the first three but blessed with an abundance of hypocrisy and has exposed motorsport to ridicule.
Let's not forget that Max used the opportunity of the Ferrarigate issue to take the moral high ground with Maclaren and then proceed to rub Ron Dennis's nose in the dirt, implying that Ron had behaved in an immoral way.
Well, pot kettle black Spanky. You are finding out that a high horse is not the best thing to fall from. In the News of the World you have been taken on by an even bigger bully than yourself, and quite frankly you deserve everything you are getting.

[peter]

Max is just like Mugabwe in clinging on to power by fair means or foul. If he had any integrity he would have gone when he was redorded describing Jackie Stewart (autistic) as "a certified half wit"

Hey Max, maybe the people at Newscorp failed to see the joke about a much loved World Champ known for his INTEGRITY, and then decided to check you out.........

[Graham Fudger]

@ Derek.... It's perfectly likely that the ladies involved in Max's gratuitous binge were all well paid and more than willing. He's stated that publicly and we've no reason to disbelieve him.
Prostitution doesn't ruin the lives of everybody that participates in it. But it is a very complex issue.
Health matters, issues of trust and exploitation sit in opposition to an individual's right to choose what does or doesn't happen to their physical 'self'.
Many people think that the state has no place in such decisions, whilst the other side of the body-politic coin says that an unregulated sex industry leaves the vulnerable open to exploitation.
Personally - I am aware of the former, but side with the latter, and I'm a tad disapointed that the numerous journalists who have given Max's story so much coverage in recent weeks have continued to shy away from such an important issue.
Where is the positive voice of lived experience ?
Where is the negative voice of lived experience ?

[Citizen Kane]

I'm sure News Interantional will do it is utmost to roll out this old story just before FIA meeting even if there were newer stories to publish.. like this one
http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2008/04/murdoch

Btw if Max's friends were dressed up in Luftwaffe -outfits so from where on has Luftwaffe been the same thing as Nazis. Suggesting such thing makes me to wonder about the present level of school education in Britain.

[ALLMAN]

Now Ed thinks he is Martin Luther; this blog is getting funnier everyday.

Not.

[Weasel]

It strikes me, repeatedly, that Jo J must be a fly - an irritant with no meaningful purpose in life - kinda like Jesse Jackson.

[Weasel]

Sad to see Super Aguri go. I had wondered if David Richards was going to make a move with Prodrive to acquire the team.

Now for a few words on respect: regardless of the way in which the video of MM came to be in the public arena, and the rights and wrongs thereof (and you cannot now reverse the publicity, which would be like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted), surely it is now about respect? That's respect for the conduct of the FIA, respect for it's leadership and it's boss. Does anyone here still respect Mosley? Judging by his apparent personal vendetta and abusive use of the FIA as a money extortion machine, one would question, from that alone, whether he is fit to hold this office.

It would appear that he has lost the respect of many motoring organizations and car manufacturers across the world and that several heads of state or governments have deemed his presence in their respective countries to be unacceptable or offensive.

Ultimately, the salient question is this: Has his conduct brought the sport into disrepute? The answer must be, (regardless of how the information about his sexual behaviour came to public attention) unequivocally YES.

[Verbal]

@graham fudger ...Graham WHO ??? Ed whats this guy doing here Historical books..Graham just go away and find a blog somewhere where they debate dead-people and fore-gone times. How did you even consider posting that

[Dale]

Peter

TRUTH, INTEGRITY, HONESTY, HYPOCRISY and RIDICULE.

Exactly, Spanky Mosley has shot himself in the foot on all of these issues and he will never get them back, the ridicule will continue, he simply has no integrity and is a hypocripte and tells untruths (or maybe he told his wife where he was going this and the other times he trotted off for his S&M spanky time).
The few liberals here are just that liberals and will never see the bigger picture.

What must be remembered is (in my opinion) Ecclestone is one with spanky Mosley and if one goes then the other should and the FIA and F1 should be reclaimed.

[Gary M]

In other motorsports news, the rally driver Sébastien Loeb has been taken to task by the FIA (the organisation that Max Mosley is in charge of) for looking scruffy and harming the image of the sport.

It seems Mr Loeb who is the current world rally champion has dared to go out in public sporting some designer stubble and has even grown his hair long.

This as you can understand has caused some friction within the FIA who's chief role is to uphold the integrity of the sport. You will be pleased to know that Mr Loeb has been told to have a shave and cut his hair.

These are the real issues in sport, why we are wasting time talking about some small indiscretion of Max Mosley when there are people like Mr Loeb walking around looking like rock stars!!

Thank god for people like Max Mosley who are doing their upmost to defend the image of motorsport worldwide, after all what will be next? Lewis Hamilton wearing an earing? Fernando Alonso wearing ripped jeans?

Yup, you are pretty safe if you mess around with prostitutes in a german concentration camp fantasy but don't even dream about growing your hair!

[Gary M]

"The difference between the McLaren and Mosley affairs is that McLaren committed a crime. Mosley did not."

QED, you are going to have to refresh my memory as to what crime McLaren committed.

One of their engineers was caught with documents that were given to him by Ferrari, despite searching there was no evidence at all that McLaren had used these documents in the development of the car and the case was closed.

A few months later due to what seems like a blackmail attempt by Fernando Alonso to reveal some emails to FIA that may show that other poeple knew about these documents Ron Dennis himself called the FIA and the case was reopened.

Again after much investigation there was still not proof whatsoever that these documents contributed to the build of the car. All that McLaren were found guilty off was being in possession of confidential Ferrari documents and were fined 100 million for it.

This was not criminal court, they were not charged with breaking any laws.

A month or so later Renault were found guilty of exactly the same thing, they had illegally obtained confidential McLaren documents. What was there punishment? Oh yes, nothing. No fine or anything.

Those are the facts QED, be good to remember them.

[Anon]

Stelmara-

I wonder whether the teams would be that scared of Todt as prez.

I believe that Todt is a smart person who could put aside his own prejudices.

If, however, he can't, I am more than sure Peter Sauber can.

[Adrian Sebborn]

Thank you Ed. for another spot on commentary. The demise of Super Aguri, as with any other team, is a sad affair and a loss to F1.

As for Max, the FIA leadership really has lost the plot. The idea that the only issue is the Nazi connotation is farcical.

For those preaching that his private life should not influence his position, consder this. I am a high school teacher. How long do you think I'd hold my job if I was found to be consorting with hookers, let alone in sadomasochistic orgies? Do you really believe that that the head of the most powerful motorsport organization in the world should be held to a lower standard than that we demand of teachers or many other professions?

I believe that the best scenario would be for Max to survive the vote and then for the American Automobile association, as they have threatened, to withdraw from the FIA and form a new organisation along with the Germans, Dutch, Japenese, Australian, New Zealand, etc. clubs that have called for Max to resign.

This could well provide fans with a alternative & manafacturers with a fairer deal without one team (ferrari) sitting on the governing board, and new television rights.

It would, of course, mean that the 100 year television rights deal that Max sold to his friend Bernie Eccleston would be pretty useless but I'm willing to sacrifice that. Aren't you?

Instead of trying to fix this mess we should be calling for the FIA to be torn down and a new organisation to take it's place. One with sombody with a clean reputation at the top.

[BRENDAN]

JO J

WRITE ABOUT MOTOR RACING OR BUGG(Edited - moderator) OFF.

[ramplano]

Not again! Mosley......... I'm with Graham Fudger

[Jack]

Spanky, what a lovely name, would you allow Max to take your daughter out?

Would you trust max with the odd couple of mIll and know it wasn't being spent on a couple on new whips and boots?

It's like the little lad getting caught with a stolen jam doughnut in his hand, He got caught and has to pay the penalty.

Q.E.D.

It doesn't matter how you dress it up, how you try to defend having a whip round amongst friends, well paid guests, in someone else's flat, it brings the person, the position, ( professional, that is ) into ridicule and undermines the position of the FIA, and you have to wonder exactly what FIA now stands for.

[Demian]

If the season would only be raced in Europe and America, it would be no problem for Max. The western world is used to your pervert british manners after all :-P (just kidding.)
But the islamic races are a different thing. I heard those people have the custom of cutting the part of your body that caused the offence. If I was Max I wouldn't dare to even think of attending those races...

[A Pervert]

As someone who shares Mosley's prediliction, I can assure Derek Smith that the ladies whose pseudonyms were given in the NotW article of 6 April are all well known in the "scene" and very much into what they do. They enjoy this activity however strange this may seem to others.

And we are not alone. Google "Formula 1" and you get about 32,000,000, try "spanking" and its about 31,000,000. Maybe Ed should start writing for the latter group as well as the former as he seems so interested.

[D Dithmar]

Dear Jo J and others. This is not really a question of weather it was right or wrong. Of weather or not you and I think so. Weather NOTW is to blame firstly or secondly.

It's about looking at one simple question: Is Max Mosley able to continue in his capasity as President of a major international organisation. Will it be the same Max sitting at the end of this and that table. Will he be the best possible representative for all fans and participants in all aspects of the world that FIA covers.

And to most others in here (including EG), and everywhere else for that sake. This is NOT a case of F1. This is so much bigger as FIA covers all other big international motorsport and motoring as such. If I was the represetative from ie. the Ukrainian Motoring Club (dunno the real name) I could easily be persuaded to let Max stay, simply on the grounds that this is all used as a battlefield for an internal F1-war.

It is not an F1 war. It is about a person who over time has gotten way too much power, and isn't willing to give it up no matter what. Even if it includes not facing reality. Cos in real life anno 2008 no leader of Max's position can survive a scandal like this.

I can understand those who sympathise with a fundamentally good person who carries only a good name, being caught doing something like this in his private life, that isn't other ppls business. I can even understand ppl who sympathise with more questionable persons having their careers terminated if are seen walking out of something that might be a whorehouse.

But Max is, according to most, a person with a questionable reputation in some way or fashion, with a huge amount of potential selfmade enemies, who has a now confirmed and undisputed need for manipulative sex-domination outside his office hours.

He is without the shadow of a doubt a person that is willing to create enemies within his own ranks, to get his will. A person like that cannot afford to have any vunerable spots. And again. He isn't caught outside a "normal" prostitute's flat. He was caught inside doing things that is more than five times as quetionable.

In 2008 domination based sex with five prostitutes is above and beyond normal stainfree behaviour for a public person, and the simple fact that he didn't even consider going on a leave until this was all cleared, shows how badly he has judged the entire situation.

[Derek Smith]

Thanks for everyone's comments about prostitution and these women in particular. My experience of prostitution is limited to law enforcement so I suppose I see a partial side but it is a very sad one. Prostitutes are so very vulnerable.

Whilst I still believe that in law the consent of a prostitute is a matter of fact (ie to be proven in court) what is inarguable is that Mosley gets off on violence against women. It certainly puts him beyond the Pale in my eyes. The FIA have just said that those in the media spotlight in motorsport should set an example as they are role models: what does the defence of beating women say to a youngster, consent or no?

[A Pervert]

Derek Smith is well meaning but muddled. The sort of prostitutes Derek claims to deal with are miles from the ladies we are discussing here. The ladies on the UK S&M scene are all enthusiasts. They like this form of sexual activity. They all practice it with their regular partners.

How can any rational adult claim that lawful and consensual sexual activity undertaken by other adults who are simply enjoying themselves and not interfering with anyone else, is wrong? It is absurd to condemn something just because it's not to your taste.

All that matters in a job like Mosley's is the ability of the person doing it. What he gets up to in his bedroom is completely irrelevant.

It is clear that most of his critics don't like the way he does his job. OK, but don't pretend this has anything to do with his sex life.

The idea that he can no longer properly represent the FIA assumes that the people he deals with are deeply interested in other peoples sex lives. That is an extremely old-fashioned idea - very 20th century like when they used to persecute gays. The movers and shakers left all that behind years ago. It's time the F1 community grew up and got modern.

[Ken L (London)]

JO J

Could you tell me how to get into this Blogging-for Money business? I need some cash. :(

Do you get paid by the posting or by the hour? And how does it work? Do they just give you a list of URLs and what they want posted and where? Or do you have to monitor the sites as well, and keep slipping their client’s message in whenever you spot an opening?

Hey, if you can do it on a motor racing blog without knowing anything about motor racing, it can’t be that hard!

Lost my job a few days ago and don’t qualify for my state pension for a few more years, so I need to find a little earner. But I’m pretty good at putting political spin on things, as quite few smug bastards have found to their cost over the years.

I’d really be grateful if you could give me some pointers and tell me who to apply to for the job. Is it that Czech guy who was on the radio last week?

Thanks, mate.

[BoiledBunny BBC 606 F1 Interloper]

Having read Roebuck's column in Motor Sport can there be a better date for Mosley to resign than 13th May?

What a corrupt bunch! Why would you want your brand anywhere near these people?

[Graham Fudger]

Mr Pervert ... you sound like a bit of a cunning linguist...

What do you make of people who hurl anonymous insults at others just because they're a bit different ?

Not the sort of thing a real man should be getting up to - is it ?

Would you agree that prejudice comes in all kinds of ugly shapes and forms ?

[JO J]

I don't usually do this kind of thing. I find it fascinating. The more I read of MM, the more I can see that he's probably not too nice...
BUT
We simply cannot stoop to undercover snooping and publishing of films of people having sex in private and then justify our actions by saying that the guy deserves it.
That is a one way street.
He may well be real low life but that does not excuse what NOTW has done and..
For me that really is far more worrying.
I don't want to spank or be spanked.
You probably don't either.
You have not been switched on to s&m by this but...
You are all indulging in very unsavoury behaviour and you should think about that.

[Michael Bowen]

At least with Super Aguri leaving there'll be a bit more room at the end of the paddock for the McLaren motorhome.

Now, will McLaren get to move up a garage slot? Or will there now be an unused garage space in front of them (which might be an advantage)?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Derek Smith]

I don't want to change direction here entirely but:

A Pervert said: 'Derek Smith is well meaning but muddled.. . . They like this form of sexual activity.'

My apologies for being so muddled. I put it down to the - allegedly - 19 year-old-kid who was taken to hospital with her injuries but before my officers got to see her, her - female - pimp had removed her. It is so easy to get muddled in these circumstances as, what with, according to nurses and other patients, all the tears and sobbing, it sort of made me wonder about consent. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

Still confused about what I saw on the S&M videos I had to document. They must have been brilliant actresses as they had me fooled. I wonder why they complained later.

[F1-Insider]

Gary M
100% correct, I await the FIA case against The Times (News International)so that Martin Brundell can put facts before a proper court, how can the Renault affair, where it was (1 proven that they had the Mclaren files 2) that they were loaded onto a number of Renaults computers and 3) they received no punishment, work for the FIA, does this not just add to Martin's case as written in his article?
Few bloggers seem to be aware of the actual facts in this episode and unlike any normal court of law the FIA (pervy Mosley) are prosecuter, judge and jury.
I hope News International fight their corner with both passion and vigour of a like not seen before, let tye likes of Brundell tell the world a number of the seedy dealings that have and are going on at the FIA.

Oh, before a few start bleeding on about the Mclaren statement may I suggest you get a copy and read it carefully.

[A Pervert]

Derek Smith is even more muddled than I thought . He should not confuse criminal assault with consensual sexual activity between adults.

A little research on Google will soon show him that there are numbers of women who like S&M sex. This is always done with a "safe word" so that everyone involved knows that it is, and remains, consensual.

It's all about consent. Presumably Derek's "officers" were dealing with someone who either did not consent or withdrew consent. That (at the very least) is an assault and is quite different from a group of adults getting together to do something they all enjoy.

If Derek is anything to do with real law enforcement he should be able to distinguish between assault, which is a crime, and a lawful activity conducted by a group of like-minded adults in private to which each has freely agreed.

[peter]

Does anyone know what the state of play is re: FIA against News International.

I would love to see the FIA in a British Court, bombastic prats.

[JSSmith]

Did Max actually have penetrative sex with the girls?

My prediction is that his defence will be along similar lines to Bill Clinton, i.e. what exactly constitutes a 'sexual act'.

Odious though he may be, I suspect Max has a pretty strong case against NOTW.

I despise what Bernie and Max have done to F1 and would prefer them to have gone decades ago, but that's nowhere near as much as I despise the British Tabloid Media..."vermin "is too good a word for them.

It would suit me if Max went away from F1, but won his case against NOTW.

[Rod Williams]

QED is confused. Even if there had been evidence instead of just conjecture during Spygate, the culprits were not even McLaren employees: drivers are very specifically "Independent Contractors". If there was any crime it was by Alonso and de la Rosa.

As to why Bernie has been so circumspect, well call me crazy but $300 million - - and $3 billion - - are large amounts that I'd work to protect. So if this is true http://www.sportspromedia.com/mosley.htm the reason Bernie is trying to support Max is pretty obvious.

[peter]

I urge you all to read the link given on the blog by Rod Williams, very very interesting, well spotted Rod.

ps. I never quite worked out how a manager of a lowly photocopy shop recognised the importance and illigality of the documents he was copying and just decided to arbitrarily contact Ferrari...very curious.......

[Rob]

the irony is this man is guilty of exactly what he fined mclaren 50m for...if i were ron i'd want my money back..
he has some cheek staying. talk about arrogance. just bugger off is all i can say to him.

[D]

^
Spare a thought for the guys at Leafield who now have to find another way to keep their children fed and a roof over their heads, in a credit crunch, while everybody else is talking in millions and billions of dollars.

They're a great bunch of dedicated enthusiasts and they worked bloody hard.

[Derek Smith]

With regards to the SportsPro link kindly supplied by Rod Williams:

Mosley did not spend the first three years of his life in prison. He was, as was normal in such families, farmed out to a wet-nurse and then governess. Further, his parents were not imprisoned in Holloway prison as such, they were given a cottage in the grounds of the prison and had other inmates act as servants. They even had a vegetable patch, tended by prisoners. They were let out in the middle years of the war when someone in government realised they were posh.

The ‘advice’ to leave the country is a bit iffy. They went to live with their friends, Edward and Mrs S in France, some say to escape the rigours of rationing.

It also states that March was set up with five principals. I could be wrong but my understanding was it was four.

And there are many courts that can find people guilty and then impose no sentence. Criminal courts can discharge a case even when the defendant has pleaded guilty, a civil court can find for the defendant and then not only refuse to award damages but make the winner pay their own costs. And many internal discipline tribunals habitually award no penalty. In my experience as one of the board, it is the norm.

These are minor errors. But then the boot comes in.

There is no doubt that three members of McLaren were complicit in the use of data freely sourced from Stepney: Alonso, Coughlan and Pedro de la Rosa. Mclaren International stated quite clearly that their own investigations support this. When Coughlan told RD of the offer of information, although not the actual size of it, RD gave instructions as to Coughlan’s future conduct and set up firewalls to block contact from Stepney. Whilst many, including me, might feel something more robust could have been done at this stage - and I bet Ron wishes he had done so, this was never as issue with the FIA.

The article states that: “. . . in the end no hard-nosed lawyer or policeman would believe it [that Dennis was aware of the full extent of the use of the information by Alonso and Pdl Rosa] for a moment.”

When Alonso presented RD with details what he and de la Rosa had done and threatened to use the information against McLaren RD immediately informed the FIA. As a hard-nosed ex-police officer, I would have taken into consideration the immediacy of the report to the FIA – seemingly without time to refer to corporate lawyers (which I reckon was rather silly. They’ve got them on tap and an hour’s delay was neither here nor there.) Indeed, I would also have cognisance of the fact that RD could have gone to a trusted member of the FIA and told them a brief resume, thereby covering himself but still allowing time to consider what his response should be. I would also remember that Mosley stated later that he has since come to the conclusion that RD did not tell lies to the FIA and that corporate McLaren were not aware of Alonso’s and Pdl Rosa’s use of the set-up data. Further, as a police officer I would note that absolutely no evidence of any use of the information was found in the many gigabytes of information supplied to the FIA by McLaren one way or another.

I would also take note of the fact that McLaren did not admit their guilt post-penalty and instead put out a press release that stated quite clearly that they disagreed with many of the findings of the court. This is unheard of in such matters as the only response the FIA should have made in sich a reaction was the expulsion of McLaren. But they didn’t. This hard-nosed police officer wonders if they realised that if they were excluded a civil court would have found for McLaren.

The report is biased. But then all editorials take a stand and then produce evidence, rumour and conjecture to support it. One has to wonder if the is sufficient evidence to make the considerable rumour and conjecture dependable. My thought is no.

There was a degree of lack of supervision of staff that made McLaren to a great extent culpable. However, what one must say is that Ferrari, as the source of the information, were just as, maybe more, guilty of the same offence. What is clear is that corporate McLaren were not guilty of a calculated attempt at rule-breaking. There was no illegal traction control, no lead shot in the fuel tanks, no moveable floors. What McLaren have admitted to is nothing more than the dreadful conduct of some of its employees, most notably Coughlan, Alonso and Pdl Rosa. Ferrari have admitted to the same on behalf of one of theirs.

[Voyager]

I wonder what people would be screaming if it surfaced that ax was gay.. Would that as well have made him a self-confessed pervert?

I'm seriously sick of people who flaunt their bigottry. Let people practise sex their own way, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

Frankly I would be more ashamed of confessing to reading NOTW than admitting going to a (or 5) prostitutes. But thats just me.

[D Dithmar]

Hi Derek and thank you for a good and deep posting on this.

First of all you start of with a number of countering claims asto Max Mosleys past. I can not say that I believe 100% what is said in Sportspro. It's easy to see when they deal with hearsay. But what should make me believe more in your ability to research Max's past than Sportspro? Unless you are Max himself, then you are (as a private person) at best equally believable as Sportspro. At best.

Then you use a lot of effort on the Stepneygate case. Well from my heart I agree with everything you say. I am in no way impressed with what McLaren did, and for one I think they could have been punished more severely had it not been against the interests of the sport (in the money behind the sport that is). But when all that is said and done, I still sit here with a feeling, that if the roles had been reversed, and Ferrari had been on the recieving end of the illegal information, then the outcome would have been completely different and not half as hardlined from FIA. And that Max Mosley would be a key figure in the reason why there would be such a difference.

This might be me seeing ghosts. But it is one of the most recognised ghosts in the entire motorsport community. Both amongst ordinary fans, in the press and deep within the players in the sport.

That is not the real issue though. F1 and their internal wars, the coverage in the press of this issue and the story in NOTW that started all this is of minor significance right now. The main issue is: Is Max Mosley fit to be president of the FIA, when everyone is trying to avoid being seen with him? Is he fit for the job when he clearly sets his own interests over those of the sport? I think not - and I haven't seen one single argument supporting him in that specific issue.

[Derek Smith]

D Dithmar,

Thanks for the reply.

I was brought up in the east end of London in a left-wing political family and was shown the stuff that the Mosleys (father, son and weird mother) put out to stir things up as part of their Union Movement, the post war reincarnation of the British union of fascists party. These were crude but generated a lot of ill feeling at a time of a sudden increase in emigration. Mosley senior was used to frighten me at bedtime rather than the big bad wolf. It's glossed over now but there was considerable racist aggravation in London and lots of violence in the 60s and 70s. Modern research reckons that Mosley was not anti-semitic but whoever writes this stuff was never taken to one of his meetings in the 50s nor read the magazine his missus put out. Mosley senior sacked William Joyce before the war but not because of his anti-semitism but because he was an electoral liability with his extreme views. And little Maxey worked for daddy with some enthusiasm.

But I'm unaware of MM's current political leanings.

I reacted against my parent's beliefs when a kid, even joining the young conservatives (Blackheath ward, lots of au pairs) but later came round in some way to accepting it. So to a great extent I'm not writing about stuff I've learnt from a book but what I experienced as a kid.

But I agree that the fundamental issue is whether he is fit for purpose and my opinion is not.

[D Dithmar]

Again you impress me. Fantastic down-to-earth reply that leaves me corrected, in a way that makes me feel educated and not offended. More Dereks in all forums please!