Who are the top-10 greatest F1 drivers of all time?

Look, I know this is a big question to ask and I know I haven't given you any warning but I have been meaning to ask it for a while and, it being a bit early to get into pre-Monaco predictions, here goes.

Who are the top-10 best Formula One drivers of all time? Err that's it. Send in your votes and one of the talented statisticians who read this blog - or several - will no doubt work out what the readers of this blog have decided(after 10 days). We need loads of you to vote so, if I may, I'd like to encourage the silent majority of thousands who regularly read this column, but do not normally comment, to make a contribution.

Of course I cannot simply pose this question then put my fingers in my ears and run...There have been some interesting stabs at this old chestnut recently which are worth considering. First my distinguished colleague at the Guardian, Alan Henry, brought out a book earlier this year entitled "The Top 100 F1 Drivers Of All Time"(Published by ICON Books/iconbooks.co.uk). Then F1 Racing magazine in its May issue(www.f1racing.co.uk) published the results of an e-mail reader poll, entitled "100 Greatest Drivers Ever".

Now there is a lot to consider here. The only thing I would say is that, if we are talking about Formula One drivers, then in my view, you have to look at the complete package. It is so hard to succeed in Formula One precisely because it is not just about driving and skill on the track but a total "life challenge" if you like. You have got to be brilliant on the track in every department; you need to be good technically; you need to have an educated sense of the business and politics of the sport; you need to understand how to develop your career and make the right moves at the right time and, all of that has got to add up to you being in the right machinery at what, consistently, is the right time. (This, for example, as many of you will have noticed, is why I rate Michael Schumacher so highly).

Henry's book is interesting and provocative. Alan is a great "student of the game" with unrivalled experience and a track record covering Formula One which goes back to when I was in short trousers. It is a standing joke with him these days about how long he has been in the paddock - just now it is something like 37 years(!) I reckon the cheeky-chappy in Alan was having a bit of fun with this pot-boiler, not least because he puts Michael at 11 and Stirling Moss at number one. Big calls both.

Here is Alan Henry's top-10

1 Stirling Moss
2 Jim Clark
3 Ayrton Senna
4 Alain Prost
5 Alberto Ascari
6 Juan-Manuel Fangio
7 Bernd Rosemayer
8 Jackie Stewart
9 Tazio Nuvolari
10 Mika Hakkinen

Stirling was obviously an incredible driver but can you seriously argue that a man with no world titles to his name - almost regardless of the reasons for that - can be rated the greatest Formula One driver of all time? On Michael, I don't understand that at all. The German is and was a motor racing colossus and the raw stats do not lie. They tell of a career which was oustanding in every respect and, unsurprisingly, given its scale of achievement, not without controversy. My view is that Michael's notorious bad days - there are three in particular - help to provide a key to his greatness. It was because he was always pushing the limits harder than any of his rivals that he occasionally went over them. Had he not operated on the edge, he would have been just like anyone else. Having made these points, I would add that Alan's assessment displays a sense of history which few can rival and must be respected for this reason alone.

The F1 Racing poll was constructed by asking a reader group to e-mail in their top-8 drivers starting from the beginning of Formula One in 1950. The results were collated, using the top-eight scoring system from the Formula One drivers' championship(eg 10pts for first, eight for second etc).

Here is F1 Racing's top-10

1 Ayrton Senna
2 Michael Schumacher
3 Juan Manuel Fangio
4 Alain Prost
5 Jim Clark
6 Jackie Stewart
7 Kimi Raikkonen
8 Mika Hakkinen
9 Gilles Villeneuve
10 Niki Lauda

In this ranking there is a more modern feel and the top-six, at least, feels about right. I asked Bradley Lord, the features editor of F1 Racing, about it and he made some interesting points, germane to the comparison with Alan's view.

"I don't think there were a large number of surprises. I think we were all quite reassured and quite pleased about how much it tallied with what you might think," said Bradley. "What you consistently see in this sort of thing, is a slight bias towards the guys who are currently racing compared to how you might think of it with 'total hindsight' on everyone - that's an inherent flaw in anything like this. Some people write in and say its ridiculous Lewis is at 15, but I spoke to Stirling Moss and he put Lewis in his top-five. For all the people who say this or that is ridiculous, it is always a matter of opinion in the end. Probably the biggest surprise for us was that Moss was not in the top-10(13th). That is an interesting 'correction'. For someone of Alan's generation, Moss is an absolute hero and legend because of the diversity of what he raced - he did everything - whereas in pure Formula One terms, he never won the title and was second four times. People probably lack an in-depth understanding of all of that. It is just an interesting correction by what it probably a fairly young voting panel."

I just had a chat with Alan and he said he found Nigel Mansell and among the hardest to place. Mansell won the world championship with the biggest performance advantage of any world champion, Alan believes(Williams FW14B). And despite what Alan says were his disagreeable traits as an individual, he was an "absolutely titanic performer" in the car. We also discussed Mika Hakkinen's somewhat surprising top-10 inclusion in both rankings. Alan said that one element weighing on his mind when considering Mika was that, when Michael retired, he highlighted his battles with Mika as among the high-points of his career. Michael clearly rated Mika who, by all accounts, was ridiculously quick in his pomp.

So there you have it. Just to finish off and to remind you of some of the leading, and not so leading, candidates, here are some other drivers with their Alan Henry ranking first and F1 Racing ranking second. Have a think and let me know your own choice.

Nigel Mansell(31,11)
James Hunt(37,20)
Ronnie Peterson(25,23)
Carlos Reutemann(15,34)
Chris Amon(13,46)
Fernando Alonso(32,12)
Lewis Hamilton(30,15)
Graham Hill(44,18)
Nelson Piquet(22,14)
Jochen Rindt(21,25)
Mario Andretti(19,24)
Emerson Fittipaldi(17,21)

"Heroes" pic - by the one and only IDR. Thanks for it.

Comments

[Harkirat]

Apart from Michael, Gilles also seems to be an odd exclusion from Alan's Top 10

[Keith]

1 Juan Manuel Fangio
2 Ayrton Senna
3 Jim Clark
4 Alain Prost
5 Michael Schumacher
6 Jackie Stewart
7 Stirling Moss
8 Alberto Ascari
9 Niki Lauda
10 Emerson Fittipaldi

[Derek Smith]

I've only been watching F1 since the middle 60s so cannot say one way or another about Fangio or Moss, although I've seen the latter in sports cars. But since my first GP in 66 I've been an F1 nerd and I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone who has seen both Prost and Clark drive can put them in that order regardless of any definition of the albeit woolly adjective greatest. In brings the whole exercise into disrepute.

One point about Mansell's 'disagreeable traits'. I was in the F1 Paddock Club for the 90 or 91 British GP at Silverstone. At the end of the Friday or Saturday's racing Mansell came into the compound on a monkey bike and, after refusing all requests from adults, took kids around the infield on the back of the bike. No press, no publicity, no hype. The kids were over the moon and had a story to tell. Not always disagreeable (although probably lucky to get 13th for 'greatest F1 driver' despite the 87 British GP.

[LUCAS]

I think you right. A driver is best seem when he does not have the best machinery. In this rule, Ayrton Senna was absolutely the best of all times. For instance, he won 6 times Monaco and shone there even in his first year. My top 8 (from the 80s, as I haven't seen F1 before that):

Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher
Nelson Piquet
Alain Prost
Fernando Alonso
Nigel Mansell
Kimi Raikkonen
Mika Hakkinen

[mersault]

I'm one of the "silent majority of thousands who regularly read this column, but do not normally comment" who felt it's time to make a contribution. Here it is:

1 Ayrton Senna
2 Michael Schumacher
3 Alain Prost
5 Niki Lauda
6 Jim Clark
7 Juan Manuel Fangio
8 Jackie Stewart
9 Emerson Fittipaldi
10 Nigel Mansell

[javiervivaespania]

I think only retired drivers should be ranked right now. It is not fair to compare Magic with the Kaiser, but still I will make an exception.

1 (*****) Fernando 'Magic' Alonso
2 (***) M. Schumacher
3 (***) A. Prost
4 (***) J. M. Fangio
5 (**) A. Senna
6 (**) N. Piquet
7 (**) N. Mansell
8 (*) J. Stewart
9 (*) Hill family
10(*) J. Clark

The stars show a balance between driving skills and fair play.

[Ale Santangelo - Argentina]

1. Jim Clark
2. J.M. Fangio
3. M. Schumacher
4. A. Senna
5. A. Prost
6. F. Alonso
7. J. Rindt
8. J. Stewart
9.N. Lauda
10. G. Villeneuve

Very difficult. What about names like Tazio Nuvolari or Graham Hill or even Stirling Moss.
Plus the fact that even people in our 40's haven't seen much of many of them.
My father use to say (I'm coming from Argentina) that Stirling Moss was better than Fangio.
I don't have enough elements to judge that.
But what I DO know is that there was a Lauda era, then Prost came in, then Senna, then Michael and then Fernando. Next, probably, Lewis.

[GP]

1.Ayrton Senna
2.Jim Clark
3.Michael Schumacher
4.Juan-Manuel Fangio
5.Alain Prost
6.Jackie Stewart
7.Tazio Nuvolari
8.Jochen Rindt
9.Stirling Moss
10.Fernando Alonso

A few thoughts: I would rather put Schumacher lower on my list. I always hated his refusal to have a top driver as a team mate with equal status. However, his statistics and business/professional approach were great.

If Mika Hakkinen is rated for his speed then Jochen Rindt has to be in my top 10. He was faster than Jackie Stewart who is on everybody's list. Also, didn't Sir Frank Williams say he considered him the fastest driver of all time?

The reason Sir Stirling is low on my list is because his choice of car and team was not based on racing results alone.

Fernando Alonso makes my list because he beat Schumacher twice in a row driving for a team that had the 5th or 6th biggest budget. Of course, Ferrari's was at the top of the list (with Toyota?).

One last note. Frank Dernie told F1 Racing Magazine that Nelson Piquet was a much better driver than Nigel Mansell.

[Weasel]

Talk about setting a cat among the pigeons - you just put you head in the lion's mouth Ed!

I predict this will be the blog to score the most comments so far and await the moist contentious squabbling ever - especially from the slavering pro Alonso rabble.

This is also a generational thing and it is nigh impossible for those drivers who preceded one's own generation to get a fair hearing. It will absolutely lack in objectivity.

Watch this space.....

[Cookie Monster]

I am not a huge fan of his, but Michael Schumacher not making Alan's top 10 list is just rubbish.

Yes, he wasn't the most sportsmanlike driver around, but that's racing. They are not there to make friends, they are there to win races. That he surely did by the bucket loads.

Sorry for not making a top 10 list of my own, I agree pretty much with F1 racing's list...

[J. Perez]

Ed, I doubt very much that many of the partisans that post here know ten drivers...

My list:

Ayrton Senna
Nelson Piquet
James Hunt
N. Lauda
E. Fittipaldi
Alain Prost
Gilles Villeneuve
J.M. Fangio
M. Schumacher
Jackie Stewart

Some faves of mine like Alonso, Kubica or Raikonnen will have to wait some years and some more titles to enter the list.

[IDR]

Well, well, well, it seems to me we are going to have some fun, and some of us (as me) will learn something about F1 history. Thanks in advance for all of those making very interesting and amazing stories about past glories.

Just before I make my proposal, I must say that you, Ed, have not made public your own top ten list.

Fair play Ed, you have to show us your owns.

It is quite easy for you to take the phone, call Alan Henry and others and ask them why and how they produce their own list, without making your own personal analysis for your Top Ten F1 Drivers.

For producing my list, I have not taken in consideration any F1 driver who is active. If they are currently fighting, that means that they have some space to improve (or to go down) then, they will have to wait a bit to be in my list.

Here I go:

1 Ayrton Senna
2 Michael Schumacher
3 Juan Manuel Fangio
4 Jim Clark
5 Alain Prost
6 Alberto Ascari
7 Jackie Stewart
8 Nelson Piquet
9 Jack Brabham
10 Niki Lauda

Ok Ed I take the glove and, despite I’m not statistician, I’ll do the maths. (Well Anon if you want, you’re welcome) I only hope comments under 300!

My only request is to see a long comment from “D” (no less than 1.000 words) giving us another wonderful story about some of the drivers he will include in his list.

Finally, have been funny for me to see who appears in 11th position in my list.

The last one has been Jean Behra. Now, I’m trying to learn something about that man…

Regards

[Hank]

What a great way to spend a wet afternoon. This argument will go on for ever but here's my list for what it's worth.

1. Jim Clark
2. Fangio
3. Moss
4. Senna
5. Nuvolari
6. Ascari
7. Jackie Stewart
8. Prost
9. Michael Schumacher
10. Mansell

Clark was a great natural driver and was always the man to beat. And let's not forget his victory in the Indy 500 in 1965!
Fangio dominated GP racing for the best part of a decade - not always in competitive machinery.
Moss was probably the best all round driver of his (or any other) day winning in sports cars, rallies and every other kind of racing. Unfortunately the only time he had the best machinery in F1 he also had Fangio as a team mate and he's the first to rate Fangio as having the edge on him in F1. But who can forget him in Rob Walker's little private Lotus 18 kicking the butts of the works Ferraris at Monaco.
Senna may have been the fastest of them all but in assessing his greatness his dark side cannot be ignored especially compared to the three men above him.
Ascari and Nuvolari were both great drivers of long ago in an era when motor racing was incredibly dangerous. Pushing too hard in those days was probably going to cost you your life so they make the list on the basis of sheer courage.
Stewart and Prost were both multiple world champions but Stewart just edges Prost on account of his contibutions to safety.
Schumacher won more often than anybody else but when you talk about greatness you have to look at his dark side so like Senna I've moved him down a bit.
Mansell gets tenth spot because he was always a racer, always gave 100% and never gave up!
The award for the most fun driver is shared between James Hunt and Innes Ireland.
And the unluckiest driver trophy goes to Chris Amon, a very fast driver who won Le Mans among many other races but amazingly never won a grand prix depite 96 starts!
Best rookie of all time goes to Lewis Hamilton; only time will tell where we will put him on the Greats List.

[F1-Insider]

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Jim Clark
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Juan-Manuel Fangio
5. Alain Prost
6. Jackie Stewart
7. Niki Lauda
8. Nelson Piquet
9. Jack Brabham
10. John Surtees

So why have I selected the above in the order I have and why have I left out some exceptional drivers (Mansell for example produced some cracking drives)?

I expect few here have seen many of these drivers race or know that much about a number of them, knowledge is everything! How can one compare a driver of past years with a modern hero when nothing is known of the forma?

Other than Fangio I have seen all of these drivers race and am aware of the abilities of the cars they had at their disposal together with the talent of the drivers they were competing against, this is why for example Schumacher is only 4th on my list as his car was the class of the field for most of his career, his team-mate was subservient and other than Hakkinen he didn’t face the quality of opposition as the others until the end of his career with Alonso.

AYRTON SENNA No 1, anyone who saw and followed his career will know why he is No 1, no question he is No 1.
Clark No 2, if his Lotus hadn’t been so fragile he would have one at least 5 championships and maybe more, like Senna he was truly exceptional. Schumacher No 3 his record speaks volumes although slightly blotted for the reasons given above.
Fangio No 4, never saw him but I know of the cars used in his day together with the then rules and I don’t feel his talent would have compared to the 3 in front (my view). Without doubt though, he was the best of his time, no question there.
No 5 Prost, he was nicknames the professor for a reason, a very clever driver, seldom drove to the max like the others but just look at his record, now that is special, Stewart No 6, Ken Tyrell said of Stewart he would test his cars lapping within a 10th of a second a lap every lap, in those days that was almost unbelievable, maybe would have won more if he hadn’t retired at the top.
No 7 Lauda, what sheer guts that man had, to come back after the fire and only just miss out in Japan to Hunt because of the crazy rain. To be broken by Enzo Ferrari to only come back later at Mclaren and take his 3rd F1 crown, the man is either a nutcase of super human brave. No 8 Piquet, driving the Brabham of Ecclestone he was all but untouchable, for a few years he was in a class of his own.
No 9 Jack Brabham, 3 world F1 crowns don’t lie and finally my No 10 is John Surtees, the only man to have won world crowns on both two and four wheels. Unlike all the others drivers above Surtees came to F1 late in his career as his real passion had always been motor bikes. To translate that speed and skill to 4 wheels and win the championship is awesome I doubt it will ever happen again and I am sure if he had dedicated his career to F1 from the start he would have been a multi time winning champion.

I have attached links (if it works) to my top 10 so any of you out there that would like to know more about the drivers before your time can learn more about them.

The above said, it’s all but impossible to compare the likes of Lauda to say Clark, different times, different cars, good fun all the same.
Reading these blogs I get the impression that most of its contributors of a lot younger than me but I promise you, if you don’t know of Jim Clark go and find out about him as he was in the Senna league.

[Felipe]

Even though I don't reckon Alonso as the best, he's definitely something, and definitely something more than Hamilton. I find this a bit pointless, and tiresome.

[colin grayson]

sorry ed , can't answer your question because , for me , it is the wrong question
my question would be , who were the best drivers who drove in F1 ; that may seem a little pedantic , but it makes a big difference to the answers ; it also leaves out the political element , who was the best businessman etc.;
does the element of sportsmanship not come into this either ?

[JamesC]

Here's my list. My view is heavily slanted by the fact that Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost and Nigel Mansell essentially got me hooked on Formula One.

I'm too young to really know anything about anyone before them, so have taken to hearsay and downright statistics with respect to the inclusion of the Legends from the Dawn of Time:

Ayrton Senna
Juan Manuel Fangio
Nigel Mansell
Alain Prost
Jim Clark
Niki Lauda
Sir Stirling Moss
Graham Hill
Jackie Stewart
Michael Schumacher

Graham Hill gets a billing for winning the triple crown of the Indy 500, Monaco GP and Le Mans even though two of them obviously weren't F1.

And, while I think Michael Schumacher would be hard for anyone through history to beat, I've marked him down on sportsmanship grounds – the term "greatest" regarding formula one drivers should include something other than skill. Had he not shunted Damon off in '94 he might have jostled those at the top of the list.

The current crop of drivers are either average or unproven for me at the moment. Alonso sullied himself last season with the attempted blackmail of McLaren etc, and Lewis while massively impressive in his first season, is having a tricky second season so far.

[bbarrero]

I think that with such an experience, Alan Henry's book is a very interesting read, even if someone could not share the same opinion.

For my top ten, I'd undeniably put:

1- Ayrton Senna
2- Jim Clark
3- Juan Manuel Fangio
4- Michael Schumacher
5- Graham Hill

There are now 5 left, maybe:

6- Jack Brabham.
7- Nelson Piquet.
8- Fernando Alonso.
9- Alain Prost.
10- Jackie Stewart.

It's interesting to note I've put five drivers I've never seen racing, although I've read a lot about them.

[Ben]

Ok Ed;

1 Jim Clark
2 Juan Manuel Fangio
3 Michael Schumacher
4 Ayrton Senna
5 Gilles Villeneuve
6 Stirling Moss
7 Jackie Stewart
8 Alain Prost
9 Kimi Raikonnen
10 John Surtees

Thanks

[Juan]

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Ayrton Senna
3. Ayrton Senna
4. Ayrton Senna
5. Ayrton Senna
6. Ayrton Senna
7. Ayrton Senna
8. Ayrton Senna
9. Ayrton Senna
10. Ayrton Senna

[Oliver]

Lewis Hamilton? Ok, I think he is a great driver but... this is his second season and he hasn't won a championship yet! Is he better than Piquet, Fittipaldi or G. Hill? Please...

[JB]

1 Fangio
2 Michael Schumacher
3 Clarke
4 Stewart
5 Prost
6 Moss
7 Piquet
8 Graham Hill
9 Lauda
10 Hakkinen

[Will]

Kimi Raikonnen? give ma a break, why's Mansell so underrated? I live in Germany ; I don't like Schumacher but I'm afraid its him, he's won nearly twice as many GP than anyone else, loads of poles, titles, fastest laps all that old shite, I watched him degrade Damon Hill for two years and and it hurt, I can't stand him. but watch the old tapes, he's the only one one could start virtually dead last and still win, overtake anyone, beat anyone.the last two years were not so hot but when youve got 500 million quid in the bank, and you already got 7 titles, the motivation starts to wane.
Schumacher is the greatest or would be if it were possible to compare drivers from different era's but its not.

[Bob En]

I find it extremely difficult to rank drivers by ability, so I won't. One of the problems is that statistics can give a false impression due to the varying level of opposition. Michael Schumacher won seven titles to Stirling Moss's none, but Schumi had relatively weak opposition, whilst Moss had Fangio to contend with.

[LWS]

The title is plain wrong. It should say "Who were...". Actually, we should talk with these acronyms too: "BH" and "AH" or "HE", the first meaning Before Hamilton and used to date any event hapenned before 2007 and the reamining meaning After Hamilton and Hamilton Era, to date any event happened after 2007.

[Carleton Twitchell]

OK..in for a penny,in for a pound...Im only going to include drivers Ive seen racing..so forgive the lack of pre 60s names...
1 Jim Clark
2 Stirling Moss
3 Jackie Stewart
4 Nigel Mansell
5 James Hunt
6 Graham Hill
7 John Surtees
8 Jack Brabham
9 Gilles Villeneuve
10 Niki Lauda

I rate them equally and am sure couldve listed more but ten is ten. For me as a spectator ( albeit TV -one!) these names were like F1 -Gods .Do we actuallu have an F1 Hall-of-Fame or is that a US thing?

[F1-Insider]

Reading these posts. other than me no one has given John Surtees (http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-surjoh.html) a mention.
He achievements in both F1 and motor bikes is unparalleled and extremely unlikely to ever be repeated making him very special.

How anyone can place Gilles Villeneuve in their top 10 drivers of all time I don't know (maybe too much wine)!

Good blog all the same as we're all entitled to our opinion (but surely not Gilles Villeneuve in the 10 ten, flamboyant he most certainly was but one of the greatest of all time, no way hosay).

[bbarrero]

I've found posts from F1-insider and Hank very instructive. I'm pretty sure that a chat with you both would become very interesting.

Also, I noted that few people hasn't listed Senna in their top-ten. I guess if they were watching some TV-soap opera on Sundays during his career.

Only joking..... ;o)

[F1-Insider]

@ Carleton Twitchell

You're having a laugh I think. No Senna in your top 10, let's keep it serious.

If you really follow F1 there is NO way you would have left him out.

[VERY FUNNY]

To Carleton Twitchell

Fantastic list: are you english?

You forgot Lewis Hamilton, Damon Hill, Jenson Button, Anthony Davidson....

The lack of pre-60's? Only including drivers you've seen: or only including english drivers you've heard of?

You're funny....err Ayron senna and Schumacher are not pre-60's. any serious list should include those two as number 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1). Then come the rest...

[augusto]

Ed,

I watch races regularly since 1978 (being 5), so my list only applies to drivers from that era (approximately).

This is not the list of drivers I love the most, but the list of drivers I found that had something that made them capable of an unpredictable "stroke of genius". You knew that, with them on the track, everything was possible.

1. Michael Schumacher (Nothing to say)
2. Ayrton Senna (Monaco'84, Donington'93 and many, many others)
3. Alain Prost (Nothing to say, just quick and cunning)
4. Niki Lauda (A professor for "the professor")
5. Fernando Alonso (Hungaroring'06, Suzuka'05 and '06 on Schumacher)
6. Mario Andretti (My first idol, quick on whatever with wheels attached)
7. Nelson Piquet (Overtaking Senna in Hungary'86)
8. Nigel Mansell (So many bright moments, 1986 and 1987 vs Piquet)
9. Mika Häkkinnen (Overtaking Schumacher in Spa'00)
10. (Vacant)

Two additional comments:

Looking to the past: From what I read, we could add many geniuses to the list: Fangio, Clark, Farina, Gilles, Hunt, ... but I didn't watch them with my own eyes

Looking to the future: the only driver I find nowadays that could join that list (as of May 2008) is Lewis Hamilton (not certainly the driver I love the most). Kimi is incredibly fast but, in my humble opinion, so perfect he is boring. Heikki Kovalainen and Robert Kubica have still everything to demonstrate. Massa is second to none on sheer speed, but not brilliant when surrounded by other drivers (he seems to have a negative net amount of overtakings). Today, only Alonso and Hamilton seem to be capable of the unpredictable. For Hamilton: Monza'07 on Raikkonen and Turkey'08 on Massa, for example.

Regards

Augusto

[F1-Insider]

@ bbarrero

100% agree.
ANYONE who ever saw Senna race in the wet where his class just went to another level would never forget it.

In a weird way loosing ones life when at the top like Senna and Clark will always make them more of a legend than those that just fade away (this includes Schumacher as he was soundly beaten in the last two years, so much so he resorted to the most blatant act of cheating I have ever seen in F1 during the Monaco Grand Prix qualifying - a real shame).

[Andreas]

All F1 Champions are great, because the selection is so tough. I think current competitors should be excluded because the picture is not finished. The obvious candidates stand out. Being dead helps a little, dont we love our slain heroes (Ayrton forever), even when they were as egoistic and ruthless than others (Michael)?

[D]

^
Hi, guys!

Just spotted this thread. (Am pretty busy at the moment!)

I'll give it serious consideration but, in the meantime, I think it might be helpful for a lot of people (me included!) if I list Alan Henry's full Top 100. It helps to jog memories with names that some, in retrospect, might wish they had remembered before they posted their choice here.

OK, brace yourselves: here's Alan Henry's Top 100!

1. Moss
2. Clark
3. Senna
4. Prost
5. Ascari
6. Fangio
7. Rosemeyer
8. Stewart
9. Nuvolari
10. Hakkinen

11. M. Schumacher
12. G. Villeneuve
13. Amon
14. Brooks
15. Reutemann
16. Varzi
17. Fittipaldi
18. Brabham
19. Ma. Andretti
20. Lauda

21. Rindt
22. Piquet Sr
23. Moll
24. Surtees
25. Peterson
26. Lang
27. Gurney
28. K. Rosberg
29. Raikkonen
30. Hamilton

31. Mansell
32. Alonso
33. Carracciola
34. Pironi
35. Ickx
36. Alan Jones
37. Hunt
38. P. Hill
39. D. Hill
40. Hawthorn

41. Farina
42. Scheckter
43. Wimille
44. G. Hill
45. Cevert
46. Berger
47. P. Rodriguez
48. Behra
49. J. Villeneuve
50. R. Rodriguez

51. Regazzoni
52. Hulme
53. Alesi
54. Montoya
55. Pace
56. Chiron
57. Revson
58. Siffert
59. Coulthard
60. Massa

61. Gonzalez
62. Bellof
63. de Angelis
64. Bandini
65. Patrese
66. Tambay
67. Button
68. Barrichello
69. Brundle
70. Warwick

71. Seaman
72. Depailler
73. Collins
74. McLaren
75. Alborete
76. Irvine
77. Ginther
78. Beltoise
79. Servoz-Gavin
80. Boutsen

81. Arnoux
82. Brise
83. Pryce
84. Ireland
85. Trulli
86. Watson
87. Musso
88. Sommer
89. Hailwood
90. Salvadori

91. R. Schumacher
92. von Trips
93. Lewis-Evans
94. Laffite
95. Castellotti
96. Taylor
97. Courage
98. Johansson
99. Mass
100. Redman

Go decimate that little lot!

Back soon(ish),

D.

[jlk]

Hi Ed
I am no IDR but I was a huge fan in the 60-70's lost touch and came back in the late 90's so my choices will reflect this bias.
1) Fangio
2) Schumacher
3) Moss
4) Stewart
5) Clark
6) Prost
7) Senna
8) Nuvolari
9) Rosemayer
10) Lauda

I disagree that Stirling should not be included. He was the greatest of his time bar none and maybe the greatest all-around ever. He got permanently upside-down with Enso and always drove second rate cars.
This is not a vote for the greatest cars but the greatest drivers!
Kimi is currently the class of the field but its too early for him.
Rgds
JLK

[Stelmara]

Brilliant blog. I'll think hard about this and post my list later.
Some of the names from the past, like John Surtees I will do some research on as it sounds like he was a very special champion.
I think to be in the top ten of all time that they have to at least have won the formula one championship so people like Villeneuve and Moss won't be in my list, it takes something extra special to actually win as opposed to being second (Moss).
Great reading anyway, there are some really knowledgeable people here.

[I own a ferrari]

This is my top 29 list (all the champions):

1. Michael Schumacher 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004
2. Ayrton Senna 1988, 1990, 1991
3. Juan Manuel Fangio 1951, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957
4. Alain Prost 1985, 1986, 1989, 1993
5. Nelson Piquet 1981, 1983, 1987
6. Niki Lauda 1975, 1977, 1984
7. Jackie Stewart 1969, 1971, 1973
8. Jack Brabham 1959, 1960, 1966
9. Alberto Ascari 1952, 1953
10. Emerson Fittipaldi 1972, 1974
11. Fernando Alonso 2005, 2006
12. Mika Hakkinen 1998, 1999
13. Jim Clark 1963,1965
14. Graham Hill 1962,1968
15. Kimi Raikkonen 2007, 2008 (surely)
16. Nigel Mansell 1992
17. John Surtees 1964
18. James Hunt 1976
19. Mike Hawthorn 1958
20. Nino Farina 1950
21. Denny Hulme 1967
22. Jacques Villeneuve 1997
23. Mario Andretti 1978
24. Jochen Rindt 1970
25. Jody Scheckter 1979
26. Alan Jones 1980
27. Phil Hill 1961
28. Damon Hill 1996
29. Keke Rosberg 1982

[andrew myers]

1. ayrton Senna
2. micheal schumacher
3. Graham Hill
4. Jackie Stewart
5. Alain Prost
6. Jim Clark
7. Juan Manuel Fangio
8. James Hunt
9. Stirling Moss
10. Nigel Mansell

[BW]

My top ten would have to be:-

1. Ayrton Senna (Genius)

2. Jim Clark (Absolute natural)

3. Jackie Stewart (retired at the top 3 World Championships in 99 starts)

4.Ronnie Peterson (his F1 career sadly cut short)and he didn't get the latest car when M Andretti did

5. Michael Schumacher (due to his poor sportsmanship that put F1 in a bad light)

6. J M Fangio (have only seen video footage of his driving and read about the Nuremburgring 1957 but it was spellbinding.

7. Alain Prost (boring to some, but a very talented and methodical driver who I seem to recall only wrote off a single racing car tub during his F1 career - unless my memory is playing tricks.

8. Niki Lauda (I don't think Niki was an out and out natural, but what he lacked in the early days of his F1 career he more than made up for later)

9. James Hunt (have to include James for his guts in getting into a F1 car in the first place, and his jokes with his one time room mate Niki Lauda)

10. Bernd Rosemeyer (before my time but the footage I have seen, eye witness accounts from people who actually saw him race e.g. at Donnington Park and the comments of Rudolf Uhlenhaut, a very brave man.

[Green Flag]

1. Jim Clark
1. Michael Schumacher
1. Ayrton Senna
4. Juan Fangio
4. Alain Prost
4. Jackie Stewart
7. Stirling Moss
8. Niki Lauda
9. Jochen Rindt
10. Mario Andretti

[AFO]

1 Ayrton Senna
2 Michael Schumacher
3 Jim Clark
4 Alain Prost
5 Gilles Villeneuve
6 Juan Manuel Fangio
7 Jackie Stewart
8 Niki Lauda
9 Emerson Fittipaldi
10 Alberto Ascari

:)

[Verbal]

I pretty much agree with F1

1.Michael Schumacher the Master Mind
2.Ayrton Senna - the Rain Maker
3.Juan Manuel Fangio - the legend
4.Fitipaldi
6.Kimi Raikkonen
7.Gill Villenuev
8.Mika Hakkinen
8.Gilles Villeneuve
9.Alain Prost
10.Niki Lauda

One thing interesting in all the serious surveys Schumacher is always near Senna
Raikkonen near Hakkinan and Alonso near Hamilton in that order.
Prost, Clark, Stuart and Moss etc I consider them hero's (not greats),nice guys that gave fans a good feeling about F1 rather than out right talented drivers Jacques Villenuve,Irvine and Damon Hill were such guys in the mordern paddock...Mansell also brought hope to British sport but that doesn't make him Senna.
Also consider this : How can anyone vote for Surtees, Brabham or Clark when they've never really watched him through a difficult race weekend, they'd sooner vote Berger cos they've seen him fall short. For me what endears a driver is not 100 wins in a car thats x.xsecs faster that everyone else but when the have to nurse a disadvantaged to victory, when they win races/championships that they have no business even dreaming about.

So in conclusion you will find this is mainly cut by Nationality and age then charisma/likability factor before ppl get to the talent factor which is what I'm interested in

[Johnny P-)]

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Ayrton Senna
3. Fernando Alonso
4. Jim Clark
5. Emerson Fittipaldi
6. Gilles Villeneuve
7. Alain Prost
8. Kimi Räikkönen
9. Jackie Stewart
10.Nikki Lauda

[Dean Rodrigues]

I'm backing this thread to break this blog's comment record. Could be spectacular...

- AUGUSTO: great analysis - very interesting way of looking at things.

I'll cut to the chase:

1. M Schumacher
2. A Senna
3. JM Fangio
4. N Mansell
5. A Prost
6. S Moss
7. J Stewart
8. K Raikonnen
9. N Piquet
10. J. Clark

[old danes]

1 di stefano
2 maradona
3 garrincha
4 luis suarez
5 zidane
6 pele
7 socrates
8 maldini
9 cruyff
10 hugo sanchez

none of current crop chosen

sh**, wrong blog!

[Anon]

Well, I ewasready for the stats about Monaco predictions, this seems to be a step up! But Im fine doing these too, IDR, but let's make up our minds before weboth do the tons of work!

First, I cannot believe Alan Henry's list. First, the man must have a nationalist bias. I don't know him, but I'll bet you anything he is British. I mean, the first twoguys are Brits who hve won between them two championships! THe third-placed guy (Senna) won more han them combined! Not to mention that both of them are famnous, but let's calm down, are they really better than Senna, Prost, and company?

Now on to me.

1.) Senna
2.) Fangio
3.) Schumacher
4.) Prost
5.) Clark
6.) Stewart
7.) Lauda
8.) Piquet
9.) Alonso
10.)Mansell

This is a very tentaive guess, and will probably changed mymind.

There are so many drivers which I fnd great. Graham Hill, Reggazoni, Ascari, etc.

I believe Fangio would be first in this list if not for his lack of physical trainging.

[Krish]

10. Prost
9. Moss
8. Ascari
7. Hakkinen
6. Stewart
5. Lauda
4. Fangio
3. Clark
2. Senna
1. Michael

[Gary M]

1 - M Schumacher
2 - Senna
3 - Fangio
4 - Moss
5 - Clark
6 - Prost
7 -Fittipaldi
8 - G Hill
9 - Stewart
10 - Mansell

Notes:

*Try as I might I just could not get Eddie "Magic" Irvine into my top 10. What he did to Senna in his very first F1 race is just quite amazing, and of course he came so close to winning Ferrari a championship before Schumacher.

*I also tried not to have Schumacher at number 1 and despite many clear reasons why he should not be number 1 I really could not think of anybody who deserves to be above him.

* I was not sure about Mansell, but his record in the US also convinces me he was truly a great driver. It is a shame that his fantastic drive to win the '94 Australian Grand Prix was overshadowed by Schumacher running Hill off the road to take the WC, both cars incidentally were behind Mansell at the time. We should of course forget the '95 McLaren debacle! ;-)

[Carleton Twitchell]

Well I had a think as Ed suggested and I posted my choice ..if you dont like it thats fine (or as they say in Bilston " You can lump it!") but its my choice ...I dont need to debate it or justify it with explanations ..thats the beauty of free speech in a democracy .
Tolerance is a hard thing to learn and even harder to maintain... its very important to tolerate opinions different to ones' own ...imagine living in a dictatorship where only the official line is acceptable.
Now lets rate the top Ten F1 Cars of all time huh???:)

[Paul]

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Ayrton Senna
3. Juan Manuel Fangio
4. Jim Clark
5. Alain Prost
6. Nikki Lauda
7. Jackie Stewart
8. Jack Brabham
9. John Surtees
10. Stirling Moss

[Jay]

To come first, first you must beat your own team mate who is in the same car. Schumacher never had to do such a thing so to call him great is to devalue the term. Remember Irvine? Most expensive road block in history yet when Schumacher broke his leg all of a sudden the Ulsterman gained half a second a lap.....how mysterious.

1. Senna
2. Fangio
3. Clark
4. Moss
5. Alonso
6. Stewart
7. G. Hill
8. Lauda
9. Prost
10. Schumacher

[Felipe]

I want to retract, it's been very interesting to read, especially F1-insider and Hank. I'm also looking forward like IDR to D, he's been too quiet recently. Really enjoy reading his informed comments.

I can't comment because I'm too young to know enough, but I really agree with not having any current drivers on the list. Too much can happen, and all the good ones are extremely young and still have time to make or break.

[Steve G]

Come on - what Alonso did was very, very special. He beat Schumacher two years in a row in a car built for a quarter of the money and despite being penalised for blocking a red car half a mile away and having a critical component banned after being perfectly legal for the previous 18 months (after a "team" protested). Alonso's two consecutive drivers' titles were as good as it gets.

Plus, if he hadn't have got that penalty in Hungary it may well have been three in a row and two in a row in different cars. I ask you - how many have done that .....?

[Maurizio]

My Top 10:

1. Juan Manuel Fangio
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Ayrton Senna
4. Jim Clark
5. Alain Prost
6. Gilles Villeneuve
7. Alberto Ascari
8. Nicky Lauda
9. Jackie Stewart
10. Mario Andretti

[chandra jayashankar]

I feel that dislike for Schumaker so extends to the European mind(predominantly British and Spanish)that people are willing to close their eyes on true greatness.On sheer weight of statistics,men of other sports are placed on top almost mechanically,for instance Rod Laver and Federer(Mc Enroe and Sampras were probably better),Bradman(had he faced the bowling and fielding of present day quality,men like Sachin and Lara would have been placed above him),Pele(was he a match for Maradona?).Schumakers's sin was that he is not British,and he nearly murdered f1 sport with his utter brilliance(as Simon Barnes once wrote),a feat not likey to be appreciated ,but surely to be applauded and unprecedented in any sport,probably with the exception of Michael Jordan.
Go ahead,plump for Stirling Mosses,Hills,Brabhams and Alonsos in fits on national frenzy and cheap jingoism.
And finally pray tell,was Senna,during his race days a saint?

[joao]

Only from mid 80s onwards:

1. Senna
2. Prost
3. Schumacher
4. Lauda
5. Piquet
6. Alonso
7. Mansell
8. Raikkonen
9. Villeneuve
10. Hakkinen

[Richard]

A qualitative comparison is impossible challenge.
Many of the potentially greatest drivers had their careers cut short by tragedy. Von Trips & Jochen Rindt for example.

More simple is to extract the 2 greatest drivers from each decade, and this will even provoke a challenging discussion.

Here is my list derived from this criteria.

By Decade - Races Won
Fangio 1950s
Moss 1950s
Stewart 1960s
Clark 1960s
Fittipaldi 1970s
Lauda 1970s
Prost 1980s
Senna 1980s
Mansell 1990s
Hakkinen 1990s
Alonso 2000s
Schumacher 2000s

An alternative is to review who has the greatest no. of Pole Positions. This list produces many surprises & does not reflect my personal subjective views which are probably less interesting & more provocative to your readers.

Pole Positions
Senna 62
Schumacher 44
Piquet 33
Mansell 30
Clark 29
Hakkinen 26
Fangio 25
Lauda 24
Hill 20
Prost 19
Hill 18
Villeneuve 17
Andretti 16
Arnoux 16
Alonso 14
Barrichello 14
Hunt 14
Ascari 13
Stewart 13
Peterson 12
Montoya 11
Ickx 9
Moss 9
Raikkonen 9
Coulthard 8
Brabham 7
Hamilton 7
Berger 6
Laffite 5
Massa 5
Reuteman 4
Fittipaldi 3
Jones 3
Rindt 3

Keep up the challenges Ed. Gorman.
Missing from the above is Hamilton - who may well become the best of all time.

[Ed Gorman]

It's coming on nicely, I'd say...

[Enrico]

Hi, here is my list. It is difficult to pick ten drivers but for sure Senna was the best one. Drivers from the last few years are not included since I think a driver needs many years and a lot wins before entering in such a list. However, Alonso and Raikkonen are in the right path to become part of the greatest drivers of all time. I hope Lewia Hamilton will do a great job in the future, but I believe McLaren is not a good team for him. They are not the same team as in the nineties. Look at Raikkonen, how many times did McLaren cars prevent him from winning a championship? Then he stepped on a Ferrari and he won at the first attempt (ironically with a huge help from his former team!!!).

1) Ayrton Senna
2) Jim Clark
3) Juan Manuel Fangio
4) Alain Prost
5) Stirling Moss
6) Jackie Stewart
7) Michael Schumacher
8) Alberto Ascari
9) Niki Lauda
10) Nigel Mansell

[colin grayson]

you have to listen to someone who really knew

when john surtees was F1 champion , enzo was at the height of his authoritorian phase and tried to dictate to him.....john promptly walked away ; afterwards enzo said that it was the greatest mistake of his life to lose such a driver

stirling moss , an up and coming driver at the time will tell you to this day that fangio was easily the best of the early F1 drivers ;I admit fangio was vastly experienced , being in his forties before he won the championship , having already driven the wheels off every other type of car

moss ? as someone here commented he spent most of his F1 time in inferior cars ...wanted to be world champion in a british car at a time when the british were at the minnows end of the grid ; but he won races anyhow ; after he beat the 200hp ferrari's in a 100hp lotus at the old nurburgring one year , a ferrari driver was asked how that could happen ; well came the reply , if you get around a lap here and get half the corners perfect you are doing well ....but him [moss], he gets them all correct every lap ; moss retired early after an accident of which he had no memory ; he said it could have been that he made a mistake , so , although he recovered , he wouldn't continue ; you have to realise that most drivers of that era retired in a box

it is a little difficult to explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it , but there is a level of concentration where you feel that it isn't you taking part , you are watching from above ; it's rather weird , and occurs , for me at any rate , on the rarest of occasions ; I have listened to a tennis player say he won wimbledon like this , and I have come to believe that the truly great drivers can maintain this level hence the existence of such as clarke and senna who are not available to comment
stirling , I don't suppose you are out there and would care to comment in an interview with Ed ?

as I said before , I won't give a list , but I will give you jimmy clarke as an example of what I believe a truly great driver has [ there are a few others , but I name him as I have stood and watched him doing private testing ,and been able to listen ]

clarkes attitude was ... you are the engineers / designers ; set up the car to be as fast as possible , and I will drive it however is required to achieve that ; you could see him racing different vehicles on the same day ....one with the wheels never out of line , the other sideways on ; didn't matter to him , he was equally adept at either

that , ladies and gentlemen , is , imho , what makes a truly great driver ;read some of the comments by moss on vehicles he drove ....didn't matter if it was a pig to drive as long as it was FAST !!! how many drivers today would say that ? at a guess that is why moss rates hamilton so highly , set the car up to be as fast as possible and keep it on the ragged edge ; pity the tyres are not up to it for the moment

[IDR]

Yeah Ed it's coming nicely... too much nicely I would say.

Any how, I'm already accounting votes for not having so much work at the end.

Up to Ed's comment, there are 31 posters with their list from 58 coments.

@Anon

Thanks a lot, but I'm already started to account. But for Mónaco, I'll give you the pleasure for making the stats! (And for some other more if you want to)

@ED

Cowardice must not be in your personal dictionary.
WHERE IS YOUR LIST?

[XescRei]

All my live i heard about Emerson Fittipaldi an also from Frangio...
my votes are

1 Emerson Fittipaldi
2 Fangio
3 Schumager
4 Alonso
5 Jackie Steward
6 Alla Prost
7 Mansell
8 Airton Senna
9 M.Andretti
10 Moss

[Julian Smallwood]

I assume w are talking GP not F1, if the latter then I have included two "reserves":
1)Tazio Nuvolari
2)Michael Schumacher
3)Juan Manuel Fangio
4)Jim Clark
5)Ayrton Senna
6)Sirling Moss
7)Gilles Villeneuve
8)Bernd Rosemeyer
9)Alain Prost
10)Jackie Stewart
11)Niki Lauda
12)Alberto Ascari

[D Dithmar]

1. Ayrton Senna - why ask?
2. Jim Clark
3. Emerson Fittipaldi
4. Stefan Bellof
5. James Hunt
6. Jackie Stewart
7. Juan Manuel Fangio
8. Michael Schumacher
9. Mario Andretti
10. Ronnie Petersson

[JaviG]

Well, I am afraid I won´t be very popular.
1. Alain Prost
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Ayrton Senna
4. JM Fanggio
5. Jim Clark
6. Niki Lauda (don´t like him, but)
7. Nigel Mansell
8. Gilles Villeneuve
9. Fernando Alonso
10.Mika Hakkinen

First of all, I only named drivers I saw racing, with Jim Clark and Fanggio as exceptions. I only saw some records and old images but it was too much leaving them out of the list.

Ok. Prost nr 1? No waaaaaaayyyy
IMO he´s the best. He shared team with Ayrton Senna, Nigel Mansell, Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, all of them WDC
Only Niki Lauda, once, finished with more points than AP (half a point, and we all remember how Prost lost at least 1,5 pts at Monaco) his teammates won 9 titles altogether, and Prost still managed to beat them all (including Senna).

2nd Schumacher. What can we say. Bizarre, but 1996-1999 impressed me much more than 00-04 period.

3rd Senna. So much talent, probably the most talented ever. But he did not want a top driver as teammate (Lotus), he had no choice with Prost.

4-5 Fanggio Clark. Can´t say much about them, but some pur them on the top, so...

6th, Lauda. He could have won more, but he had problems with too many managers.

7th, Mansell. Underrated IMO (not in Britain of course). If you consider that his weight was much more heavier than any drivere, and that difference was not corrected in the 80´s you can see that he should have reached more achievements (and he was so unlucky too)

8th, Villeneuve. Yes, he did not win any WDC, but as Prost said
"Some drivers race for the win. Gilles will race for any corner or any position". The purest racer ever.

9th, Alonso. The best pilot right now. Suzuka 05 (would have won had the stewards not told him to back off and overtake a jag again), suzuka 06 (a hell of a drive), Hungaroring 06 (Where was Kimi that day?), and more races like that.
If backed by his team, almost unbeatable (considering the pilots on the grid)

10th Hakkinen. He would have been 9th but his career was too short and he was kind of weak (in 2000)

[Rob Cliff]

I'd have to go with:

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Jim Clark
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Juan-Manuel Fangio
5. Alain Prost
6. Jackie Stewart
7. Niki Lauda
8. Nigel Mansell
9. Stirling Moss
10. Gilles Villeneuve

My favourite driver was Nigel Mansell, when he was on track sparks would fly with some unbelievable overtaking moves. I just think back to Hungary 89, Mexico 90 and Britain 87 (the race that got me fanatical about F1). I loved the Turbo era, I wish it was back with us!

Rob

[F1-Insider]

It's a shame so few know of John Surtees. Speak to Stewart or Moss and they would tell you just how good he was not forgetting F1 was not his main passion. Let's remember that he is unique as the only driver to be both F1 and World bike champion.
It's clear that the views of by far the majority here reflect the more modern era due to the ages of the contributors.

A thought Ed; why not have a similar blog with the 10 WORST F1 drivers of all time, now that would be fun as there have been a fair few over the years (now who's the worst driver on the grid today)??

[D]

^
Great pastiche, IDR! I'll install it as a desktop on one of my Macs!

Well, here's my list. It's not entirely clear to me whether we're restricted to those who competed from 1950 onwards because there is mention in the article of earlier drivers, So, I've numbered them twice (all-time and since 1950).

I didn't think it was fair to either Kimi Räikkönen or Fernando Alonso to include them yet because their true position cannot be assessed until their career is completed.

01 § --- § Tazio Nuvolari
02 § 01 § Jim Clark
03 § --- § Berndt Rosemeyer
04 § 02 § Jochen Rindt
05 § --- §.Rudolf Caracciola
06 § 03 § Stirling Moss
07 § 04 § Michael Schumacher
08 § 05 § Juan Manuel Fangio
09 § 06 § Ayrton Senna da Silva
10 § --- § Achille Varzi

11 § 07 § Niki Lauda
12 § --- § Guy Moll
13 8 08 § Jackie Stewart, Sir
14 § 09 § Gilles Villeneuve
15 § --- § Hermann Lang
16 § 10 § Nigel Mansell
.....................................
17 § 11 § Alain Prost
18 § 12 § Alberto Ascari
19 § 13 § Mario Andretti
20 § 14 § John Surtees
21 § 15 § Jackie Ickx
22 § --- § Richard Seaman
23 § 16 § Graham Hill
24 § 17 § Ronnie Peterson
25 § 18 § Phil Hill

Yeah, I know: that's more than ten in each list - but I'm feeling generous! :-)

And it's a lot more fun than debating the mess that a seedy prostitute-flogger has got himself into.

[Doug]

Surely the only meaningful rating of greatness is number of world championships won. There are lots of great drivers out there but one of the most important skills for a racer is having the ability to get a great car. Either by developing it or by using politics to get into it.

John Surtees - 8 (7 motorcycle)
Michael Schumacher - 7
Juan Manuel Fangio - 5
Alain Prost - 4
Jack Brabham - 3
Jackie Stewart - 3
Nikki Lauda - 3
Ayrton Senna - 3

[William]

To be honest, I ythink is ajoke fron Alan Henry to put Hamilton on 30th, I know britons are eager to have a champion again, but think with the brain...

[Marc]

Regarding Alan Henry's list - Rosemeyer and Nuvolari were 1930s Grand Prix drivers, before the term 'Formula One' came into use for the World Championship. Shouldn't his book be called 'Top 100 Grand Prix Drivers of All Time' instead?
Also agree that Alonso, Kimi, etc should not be on any list until they have retired.

[F1-Insider]

Unfortunately the links I had posted on my original comments didn’t work so here is my top 10 again with info links to al of them which some of you younger folk may find interesting if you really are F1 fans, trust me you will.
1. Ayrton Senna http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-senayr.html
2. Jim Clark http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-clajim.html
3. Michael Schumacher http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-schmic.html
4. Juan-Manuel Fangio http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-fanjua.html
5. Alain Prost http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-proala.html
6. Jackie Stewart http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-proala.html
7. Niki Lauda http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-launik.html
8. Nelson Piquet http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-piqnel.html
9. Jack Brabham http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-brajac.html
10. John Surtees http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-surjoh.html

[Magnus]

My criteria of greatness is how enthralling the sport became by the way the driver performed. The list is based on what I've seen myself and what others have said via reportage. Sorry to leave out Michael Schumacher but despite all his wins his racing style was not that memorable. That is, he never won a race that he should have lost and when things came to a crunch, he never made it. Remember how '97 and '98 finished:

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Gilles Villeneuve
3. Jackie Stewart
4. Juan Manuel Fangio
5. Nigel Mansell
6. Alain Prost
7. Tazio Nuvolari
8. Alberto Ascari
9. Lewis Hamilton
10. Mike Hawthorn

[CST]

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Juan-Manuel Fangio
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Jim Clarke
5. Alain Prost
6. Jackie Stewart
7. Niki Lauda
8. Nelson Piquet
9. Jack Brabham
10. Nigel Mansell

It simply has to be Senna. Watching him was unbelieveable, especially at Monaco. I wrote an article about this two years ago for my work website. My arguments are further explained in that article. See link.

http://www.cvdfk.co.uk/news/article.asp?view=769

Mansell has to be in there because he was involved in some of the most exciting races the sport has seen. He also pulled off some of the greatest overtaking manouvres the sport has ever seen. His overtaking in 1990 at Mexico City of Gerhard Berger on the outside of the Peraltada at 180 mph pulling 3G on old tyres to Berger's new ones is surely the move of the century!

[Romain from Grenoble]

Hello Ed and everybody. First post here for me. As regards my list: it is not actually a 'greatest f1 drivers of all time list', but rather 'my favorite f1 drivers list'. I mean : I do not rate them by driving skills, but by how much I like them :). This is why I speak mostly of drivers I saw racing ('ve been watching f1 since 92/93).

1. Alain Prost : Le Professeur. He was one of the best at setup tuning. He beat Ayrton (who also beat him other times). He won many world championships. He is very interesting to hear being interviewed (which is not the case of ... all current drivers a part from Sebastien Bourdais isn't it?).

2. Fernando Alonso : the most commited of the current drivers. He had a wonderful symbiosis with the Renault team and Michelin in '04-'05-'06 (well almost, a part from the 'i feel alone' moment at the end of 06). He had as much points as his english teammate in the english team last year, which is an achievement considering the english boss of this team :). He drives with his heart. He overtakes often (his pass at the end of the wet Nurburgring GP last year was thrilling). Also Imola 05, when he prevented Schumi from overtaking him : brilliant.

3. Ayrton Senna : The best qualifier of all time for sure. His quali laps were coming from another planet. His races were also very nice. The first laps of Donington 93: I didn't watch this live, but the replays are just amazing. Very sad he can no longer race. I really would have loved watching Suzuka 89 and Suzuka 90 with two of my favourites drivers fighting on my favourite circuit.

4. Juan Manuel Fangio : obviously I didn't watch him race, but according to my (Argentine) uncle : he is the best. And winning the championships with 4 different teams is an astounding achievement. Another nice statistic from Juan Manuel : he won 24 of the 51 races he took part in (according to wikipedia). Impressive ratio Juan.

5. Michael Schumacher : so much to say. So many race wins. Of course he was not always very fair. But that's fine with me, I just want to see drivers fighting hard. He was the best maybe at upping the level of his team. He actually resurrected the Ferrari team in the 90's (ok, with the help of Todt, Brawn, Byrne...).

6. Kimi Raikkonnen : Great guy. He really seems not to care about anything but racing. He is very probably another person when the TVs are away, but I can understand him : I also wouldn't like being recorded live for millions of viewers. But we can see he loves racing. Performance-wise, he impressed me more with his McLaren in 2003-04-05 than his current form with Ferrari. He seemed to control his car and his teammate more with the McLaren. Anyway, he is a great qualifier and racer (and my girlfriend finds him cute ;) ).

7. Jacques Villeneuve : He was impressive in his first seasons 96-97. The 97 championship was very enjoyable to follow, with two strong characters figthing all year long (and a great finale of course at Jerez). Pole position on his first race, hair dyed blond, his position against Max on the grooved 'shitty' tyres... he really was not corporate.

8. Jean Alesi : nicknamed 'graveltrap'. He did attempt overtaking (emphasis on attempt) often and this is great for us viewers. There used to be a joke carried on by 'Les Guignols de l'info' which was along the line "if I hear graveltrap on the right, and graveltrap on the left, then I know it is the end of the race". Also his only win in Montreal was emotionful : I was wondering for all the race "will he crash before the end?".

9. Takuma Sato : Another great guy. Always figthing whatever car he is in, and trying to overtake. Too bad the Super Aguri Team can not continue. I look forward to two things for Takuma and SA: I hope Takuma will replace Nelsinho at Renault, or that the Super Aguri Team will become Team Japan in A1GP. That would be great.

10. Jarno Trulli : He definitely is an exceptional qualifier. Although not as good as Ayrton, still top level. He does have problems in the races. I heard him say once that the grooved tyres do not suit his style and he suffers from graining. Of course this is no excuse, but maybe next year he could turn his great qualifying performances in race results with the slick tyres? Also, he has his own wine, and this is cool.

But the races are often boring with no overtaking. I'm looking forward to the next wet gp (please Ed, make it rain at Monaco), and also to the technical regulations of next year : we'll see new bodyworks on the cars, and hopefully more overtaking.

On a side note : I love this blog. We can often read some bizarre comments, but it is the price to pay for freedom of speech. There really are some very clever comments from everybody here. Very enjoyable to read :) .

Romain

[Jamie]

Ok as several others have done I am only choosing drivers I have seen racing. The only comment I have is that I too find it unbelievable that anybody could have a top ten without the genius that was Ayrton Senna in it ?? Oh well here goes:-

1.Ayrton Senna
2.Michael Schumacher
3.Fernando Alonso
4.Nigel Mansell
5.Alain Prost
6.James Hunt
7.Niki Lauda
8.Damon Hill
9.Juan Pablo Montoya
10.Kimi Raikonnen

Just also to say I put Lauda in not so much for his driving but for his incredible bravery to get back into a car and race again after his awful accident.
Cheers

[Matt]

This is harder than you think but

1. Juan Manuel Fangio
2. Alain Prost
3. Jackie Stewart
4. Jim Clark
5. Fernando Alonso
6. Stirling Moss
7. Ayrton Senna
8. Tazio Nuvolari
9. Jack Brabham
10. Mario Andretti

I'm surprised that Stewart is so under-rated - 27 wins from 99 starts is an amazing ratio, and had he not retired so early he could have easily raced until the end of the DFVs in the early 80's and picked up a few more championships.

Also, why forget Brabham? Piquet didn't make much of a mark getting 3 championships, and Lauda wouldn't have won in 1984 under today's "count all points" rules, but Jack also got three, including one in a car he built.

I think Senna is important here - not only did Suzuka 89 show Schumacher that playing dirty sometimes got results but his tragic death denied Schumacher someone to prove himself against. The folk on this list raced against the best and won, and I'm not sure I can say that of Schuey.

[Del]

A lot of people are forgetting that Alonso beat Schuey two years in a row with a team with a tiny budget in comparison despite what FIA threw at him. And the FIA took away his chance of scoring big points in Hungaroring last year which could have given him the hatrick and two in a row with different teams (which would have been better than what most WDCs have achieved - including Schu).

Unfortuantely the Hamilton-obsessed media and fans have enbsured Alonso will no longer receive the recognition he deserves, just bile. I remember James Allen last year: he could hardly bring himself to refer to Alonso as the current World Champion all year. How dare that dirty Spaniard beat our plucky English hero!

Alonso is top ten without any shadow of a doubt. No-one racing today has as much passion and bravery. There's a little of Senna in him (who was also ruthless).

[Ed Gorman]

A note from me. A few of you have sent in your top-10 worst drivers which is great. But let's wait 'till we've got this one out of the way first and we'll do that next after Monaco. So please start thinking but wait 'till you see the relevant post. I'll let you know as and when...

[Maritsa Solares]

Here goes my top ten:

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Fernando Alonso
3. Ayrton Senna
4. Alain Prost
5. Nicki Lauda
6. Kimi Raikonnen
7. Mario Andretti
8. Damon Hill
9. Juan Manuel Fangio
10. Emerson Fitipaldi

Let´s see if the two on this list who are still driving can outdo any of the others.

[IDR]

@MATT

Yup, amazing ratio.

You know, there are some few with even better ratio (Wins/Startings) than J Stewart:

Fangio 47,1 %
Ascari 38,2 %
Schumacher 36,4%
Clark 34,2 %

[Zeitnot]

1. Schumacher
2. Fangio
3. Senna
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Ascari
7. Stewart
8. Alonso
9. Lauda
10. Brabham

[PaulD]

Like many before me i feel you can only pick a top ten of drivers who you've actually seen (sorry Fangio et al)

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Ayrton Senna
3. Alain Prost
4. Kimi Raikonnen
5. Nigel Mansell
6. Fernando Alonso
7. Mika Hakkinen
8. Damon Hill
9. Juan Pablo Montoya
10. Eddie Irvine (Had to get him in)

[Clark D.]

Hi, there.
I would say:

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Michael Schumacher
3. J. M. Fangio
4. Alain Prost
5. Fernando Alonso
6. Jim Clark
7. Jackie Stewart
8. Gilles Villeneuve
9. Mikka Hakkinen
10. Niki Lauda

That's it.

Regards, Clark D.

[Clark D.]

To Alan Henry, Weasel, Hank and Magnus.

I've got a question: Is it logical to consider one of the best drivers in the F1 history a driver that never raced in F1?
I'm talking about Tazio Nuvolari.
He never run a single F1 race.

I think that there are many people here who don't know what they are talking about and just speak just to pretend they do.

Regards,
Nice blog, Ed

Ps: the best F1 driver in history was my nephew Martin, 4 years old.

[Joe]

1. Senna
2. Fangio
3. Clark
4. Moss
5. Alonso
6. Lauda
7. Schumacher
8. Stewart
9. Prost
10. Hakkinen

Just missed the top ten: Piquet; G. Villeneuve; Rindt; Nuvolari; Rosemeyer.

Alonso is the most underrated and under-appreciated driver of his generation. Utterly fearless, totally passionate and such a hunger for the win. The man who made Schumacher feel like an old man despite being in a cheap and cheerful car and with the rules men on his back. I love him as much as Senna.

Schuey? Credibility undermined by the moving roadblocks that were his teammates and too many favourable decisions (taking a stop-go after the finish line? Really?). Would he won so many races if he didn't had Irvine holding everyone up for several years? Less said about those dodgy Benetton days, the better. We all know deep down they were illegal.

Moss would have been a multiple world champion had he not been so patriotic and too damned polite. His Mille Miglia win was as good as any WDC year-long effort, full stop.

I am sorry to be rude, but anyone who has Hamilton in their top ten is an utter idiot.

[Clark D.]

Ok, I'll say it more politely:

Tazio Nuvolari can't be in, for he never raced F1.
And he appears in at least four lists. Beckham is as good an option.

regards, nice blog, ed

[Sarah]

Well, sticking to those who I have actually seen race in the flesh, so to speak:

1. Senna
2. Alonso
3. Schumacher, M
4. Prost
5. Hakkinen
6. Piquet
7. Raikkonen
8. Mansell
9. Hill
10. Montoya

Would love to have seen Moss, Fangio, Clark and Surtees race. On the last one, there are too many fans of F1 who don't realise how well regarded Surtees was. "Only one on two and four" is an unmatchable feat. Damn Enzo's eyes....

My dad met Fangio once!

[James C]

Credit to your nephew, Clark D, but I don't think PlayStation F1 drivers count in this.

[Paulo]

My top ten:

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Jim Clark
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Juan-Manuel Fangio
5. Alain Prost
6. Stirling Moss
7. Niki Lauda
8. Nigel Mansell
9. Jackie Stewart
10. Gilles Villeneuve

[Pau]

1. Senna
2. Fangio
3. Prost
4. Schumacher
5. Alonso
6. Hakkinen
7. G Villeneuve
8. Piquet
9. Hill
10.Raikkonen

[Verbal]

WHATS Nick FRYS PROBLEM ????http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=42655

Not content with helping the exit of Super Aguri so now he wants rid of all private teams from F1.

[dominguez]

Lewis 'amilton is the best driver of all time, cos he's British!

[jlk]

To Clark, Marc et al

Yes Nuvolari, like Moss, won races in every category as did Rosemeyer. This includes Grand Prix. They were also the only two who could master the beast of the age, the 500 BHP Auto Union.
Just because they raced pre WW 2 doesn't mean they should not be included.
JLK

[Becken]

1. Senna
2. Stewart
3. Clark
4. Moss
5. Fangio
6. Gilles
7. Lauda
8. Prost
9. Fangio
10. Schumacher

[Terence]

Stats dont often lie, especially rating drivers over long time periods. Some careers were tragically short - but over time cream rises to the top as F1 is a business and the best returns come from having the best drivers (however Fangio did "borrow his team mates car to win a championship - so for this i adjust his achievement downwards). My List:
1 Schumacher
2 Prost
3 Senna
4 Fangio
5 Brabham
6 Stewart
7 Lauda
8 Piquet
9 Ascari
10 Clark

[Mark]

It is very difficult comparing drivers from different times, especially when you haven't seen many of them drive. Did see lots of old F1 "high light" vids, but still... Anyway this is my top 10.

1. Juan Manuel Fangio
-->7 seasons in F1, he won 5 WDC and was runner up 2 times
2. Ayrton Senna
-->Unfortunately a career cut short, but seeing him drive was a joy!
3. Alain Prost
-->4 WDC driving against the likes of Senna, Niki Lauda, Nigel Mansell and D. Hill (all WDC's).
4. Michael Schumacher
--> Broke just about every record in F1, but is down on my list because he controlled Ferrari and contractually stopped his team-mate from competing against him.
5. Jim Clark
-->In 75 GP's he managed 33 pole positions, 25 race wins and 2 WDC's. Outside of F1 he, like many of his contemporaries also competed in all forms of motorsport and won.
6. Niki Lauda
--->3 time WDC and only losing by 1 point to James Hunt in the 1976 season after he crashed, missing a number of races that season.
7. Fernando Alonso
--> Youngest WDC, youngest double champion. All the more remarkable considering he started his career in Spain in a time F1 was not a big sport and so not well sponsored.
8. Jackie Stewart
--> Remarkable career, including 3 WDC's and also much appreciated for his contribution to safety in F1!
9. Alberto Ascari
--> Again a notable career winning 2 WDC before he was killed in accident (Almost identical in circumstances to the death of his father...)
10. Stirling Moss
--> Never won a WDC, but was runner up 4 times. He did win many motor races outside F1 and possibly should be higher on my list...

To make life easier for the analysis here just the names;
1 Fangio, 2 Senna, 3 Prost, 4 M. Schumacher, 5 Clark, 6 Lauda, 7 Alonso, 8 Stewart, 9 Ascari, 10 Moss.

[Anon]

Darn. I as actually get quite worked up to do the stats for this, but by all means, do't suspend your work just for me, IDR! Sure, I'll take Monaco. It will be nteresting to se how different the list will be for Monaco ofr if people prdict the exact same thing as for Spain.

[D]

^
Richard >

I enjoyed your posting but your listing and statistics for Pole (position, not Robert!) are very seriously wrong.

Do compare them against a more reliable source.

[Gary M]

@ JOE

"I am sorry to be rude, but anyone who has Hamilton in their top ten is an utter idiot."

Firstly, I do not think anyone has Hamilton in their list so therefore no idiots on this board then. But thanks for keeping everyone straight, It would be terrible if somebody actually had their own opinion heh?

But to be honest, coming from a man who had Fernando Alonso above Schumacher, Prost and Mansell I cannot be sure you have the right to be criticizing anyone elses choice?

But like I said, that is your choice and are welcome to post it, just the same as anyone else can!

[Anon]

I chage my mind, as predicted.

1. Fangio
2. Senna
3. Schumacher
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. G. Hill
7. Alonso
8. Mansell
9. Lauda
10. Piquet

Don't ask me why. Sorry IDR.

[IDR]

@ ANON

Don't mind. I sitll remember the first stats I made for the blog, and my comment on your choice:

"...some doubts from Anon..." Do you remember that?

Someway, this was expected. (just kidding, you're welcome).

I keep the old one... just in case.

@GARY M

There has been one poster that has included Hamilton in his Top Ten List.

But I'm strongly agree with you, nobody has the right to qualify other's choices.

[IDR]

@MARK

A pleasure to read!

And thanks a lot for the short list.

[Bojan]

1. Ayrton Senna *
2. Michael Schumacher
3. Juan Manuel Fangio
4. Jim Clark *
5. Niki Lauda
6. Alain Prost
7. Nelson Piquet
8. Jackie Stewart
9. Graham Hill
10. Alberto Ascari *
11. Nigel Mansell
12. Mario Andretti
13. Mika Hakkinen

Asterisks denote drivers who died in a racing car which means:
a) They could have achieved even a more brilliant carreer.
b) They were unlucky in one important element of racing - having just enough control over their own safety to survive.
That's why I put 13 of them on the list.

[Nick Williams]

Some intereting views so far. My list is as follows and includes 1 current driver but my top 20 would include 3 current drivers. I like to rate drivers on their achievements with the equipment at their disposal in relation to their results and how often they performed over and above the ability of their car.

1. Ayrton Senna
2. Juan Manual Fangio
3. Michael Schumacher
4. Jim Clark
5. Jackie Stewart
6. Alain Prost
7. Stirling Moss
8. Gilles Villeneuve
9. Fernando Alonso
10. Nigel Mansell

Many thanks..

[Antonio Xixon but in UK]

Away from the blog for a while, but I couldn't resist this one.

I didn't see most of the people racing, and I have to admit that I started to watch F1 with Schumacher in Benetton, so a "newy" in this sport, but still I'll have a go, but in a different approach: I'm going to put them in two lists, the first one in order of "hearing", that's it, in order of importance of reaction from my friends and colleagues at work at the mention of their names. The second one is my personal opinion.

1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Mansell
4. Stewart
5. Clark
6. Hill
7. Piquet
8. Hamilton
9. Alonso
10. Raikkonen

Note the fact that in nearly 50 persons asked, 95% didn't know that Fangio or Fittilpaldi were F1 drivers...This comes from a survey amongst staff from a central London Hospital ( University level people, supposed to be "cultural" ) and close friends.

My list:

1. Senna
2. Schumacher ( It "hurts" me, but you have to give credit to the German )
3. Prost
4. Fangio
5. Mansell
6. Fittipaldi
7. Lauda
8. Piquet
9. Steward
10. Alonso

I'd love to put a 11th list of three that deserve to be there: Hakkinen, Hill and Coulthard.

Analyzers, hard work isn't it?

[Julian Smallwood]

When I put Novalri and Rosemeyer in I did ask the question GP or F1. I expect the final results will be based on 1950 onwards. Do note if you're looking broader Ferrari's view of Nuvolari - couldn't bare being in a care with him as he made it "do impossible things".

On another note, I fer he usual British bias; notably anti-Schuey. He is eaten up for "controlling" the team whereas the reality was that he help recreate the greatet motor sport brand in history. Conversely, Fangio, genius that he undoubtedly was had no loyalty or desire to build a team whatsoever - the only champion to win a title with two manufacturers in the same season says it all. There must be a value in the loyalty and team spirit that drivers like Clark, Stewart and Schuey showed.

[red]

1. M.Schumacher (the king of all times)
2. N.Lauda
3. J.Stewart
4. A.Ascari
5. J.M.Fangio
6. J.Clark
7. G.Villeneuve
8. R.Peterson
9. F.Alonso
10.A.Senna

[red]

1. M.Schumacher
2WDC without the best car 94-95, +2WDC in a competitive field 00-03 +3WDC with dominant cars 01-02-04, incredible win rate if u consider he just drove 3 years with a dominant car, the only pilot which force FIA to make changes to point system and has a point system to his name, "antischumi" point system.
Won more races than team lotus and the sum of all brazilian drivers.complete package, fast out of box in every condition. the man who doesnt need to the best car for to be champion.

2. Doesnt it really matter? the winner takes it all.

[C. Class]

1. Jackie Stewart
2. Ayrton Senna
3. Francois Cevert
4. Jochen Rindt
5. Gilles Villeneuve
6. James Hunt
7. Jo Siffert
8. Elio De Angelis
9. Denis Hulme
10. Peter Revson

[Wintermute]

1 Ayrton Senna
2 Jim Clark
3 Alain Prost
4 Mika Hakkinen
5 Jackie Stewart
6 Juan Manuel Fangio
7 Stirling Moss
8 Giles Villeneuve
9 Niki Lauda
10 Nelson Piquet

[Speno]

1. Senna (the fastest)
2. Fangio (the best)
3. Moss (the most complete)
4. Clark (the most sublime)
5. Prost (the smoothest)
6. Schumacher (the most dominant)
7. Nuvolari (the most versatile)
8. Stewart (the most intelligent)
9. Ascari (the most confident)
10. Fittipaldi (the most stylish)

GILLES!! (just for the hell of it)

[brendan stallard]

Alan Henry is clearly a complete lunatic to ignore Michael Schumacher.

Senna was good, but Schumacher would have dealt with him, and Senna was running away from MS when he was killed. Senna was always on the ragged edge and no matter how romantic that makes him to some benighted viewers, it didn't work long run.

Schumacher was like Arkle, he changed the sport utterly. I well recall his mid years: when his race craft was so extraordinary that you could hear the "jaws" music playing in your head as soon as he got on the tail of someone he was getting ready to overtake. He intimidated everyone but Hakkinen that I saw.

He may not be loveable, but MS was the best ever. I miss him, he would surely contribute right now.

brendan

Yup, I remember that. I have such rouble making the right choice in predictions! Pat of it is that the whole field is so close, it's so vry difficult to get the order straight. I try to calibrate my predictions the best I possibly can, but to no