Bernie has a go at the top-five

Just as an adjunct to the top-five drivers thread which we will close on Tuesday morning (9.00am French time), here are the views of Bernie Ecclestone who has seen a lot of drivers come and go over the years. Along with his choices are some comments from him. On Felipe he did not say much only because we forgot to discuss him in detail. Apologies for that. (However I know he is a big fan of Felipe. When he made his initial selection he named a couple of drivers and then said "Massa, for sure"). His view of Robert is interesting and suggests, possibly, that he should be ranked above Lewis.

1. Fernando
"If he was still in a McLaren he would be showing Lewis the way home - I don't think there is any doubt about that. I never asked the guy - I'm going to ask him one day - when he signed for McLaren, whether he was told he was number one. Because if he didn't ask and he wasn't told, he would have assumed he was. Having a guy that's never been in a F1 car in the team with him, he'd expect to be number one wouldn't he? And that's what the problem was. When he found out, although he should have been number one, of course he wasn't."

2. Lewis
"The difference with Lewis is that, last year he didn't have to prove himself because he was the new kid on the block and he wasn't expected to finish a race. This year, people say he should have won the world championship last year, and therefore he's under pressure to make sure he does it this year."

3. Kimi
"I think the problem with Kimi is his desire to win is perhaps not strong enough for him to do what it takes to win. And that's not just while he is in the car. Michael's desire to win was such that he would work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to improve the car so that he could win. That's the difference."

4. Robert
"If you saw him in a McLaren or a Ferrari, I think I'd put my money on him blowing away Hamilton."

5. Felipe
"Smashing guy."

I asked Bernie to name one other driver in a lesser car who had struck him as having the quality to make it to the top.

Sebastian Vettel: "I think he's a guy that could get the job done."

Comments

[Richard]

Ed

Did Bernie explain why he thought FA would show LH the way home in a McLaren when he didn't manage it last year? Is it because of the added pressure LH is under this year compared to last year?

Very strange he put LH 2nd in light of his comments about RK - did he give his reason for this?

I can't help wondering how good Kimi would be if he did have the same will to win as some of the others. If he can still win titles without huge motivation, how good must his driving be to make up for it?

[Architrion]

Look at this!!!! Oh my God.... Now it seems that Bernie has spent too much time around here in Spain, and he has begun to talk as a true spaniard... Fer is his number 1.... ouch

[IDR]

Interesting list.

I couldn't agree more with Kimi's comment. What surprise me more is, despite this view, Bernie is rating Kimi above Robert.

Anon, you should consider this thread for your stats. shouldn't you?

Ed, nice to see you have asked Ecclestone for giving you his own top five...

or was Bernie, while he was reading your blog, who has espontaneously sent to you his own list?

[Anon (the real one)]

Striking. I would have expected his list to be something like Lwis, Kimi, Fernando, but nope. Anyway, it is a solid list.

9 at Tuesday- I'm on acation now so I have no idea whether we're Monday or Friday! Saturday- OK, so in three days. Would appreciate it if you posted a message saynig "Stop voting," because I'm going to go crazy if someone posts at 9:01.

BTW, nice job getting the five best drivers out of Berne. I would've expected some sort of, "Oh, but they are all so good, I can't choose." Wonder if a driver would be willing to give his top five (himself excluded automatically, of course).

[Lucy]

Wow that's great Ed Bernie always seems so reluctant to talk. Quite suprised Robert's not higher.

[CHIUNDA]

Definitely Bernie has his feet on the ground as an F1 fan. He seems to have a fairly good understanding of his product - unlike a certain colleague of his (do you think you can get a top five from Mosley?).

[D]

^
My God: Ecclestone and I agree on something!

Interesting that he, like I, rates Blitzer above Hyperbole as things stand today.

Fernando seems to be coming out top of pretty much everyone's lists at the moment. That says a lot.

Of course, we all know where Ecclestone would have put Michael Schumacher if he'd been told he could include Der Meister in his list.

So that's another thing that he and I would agree on.

This is getting very worrying...

[Kohque]

Smart guy this Bernie ;)

[Anon (the real one)]

Since this is the best drivers as seen by the blog member, I don't think I should count Bernie. Which is a shame because, there is a stout for a position (among the top five) which would be intensified by more voting...

[Bob M]

Ed, glad to see that Bernie has got the ball rolling. Am now looking forward to regular celebrity participation on your site. It only gets better.
So Bernie goes for The Big 5, as nearly every one else has done. Personally, I don't think the order is THAT interesting. Most of your readers, and Bernie, have honed in to The Five. that's what has been proved by your survey.
Who has the best chance of challenging the five? (let's go to the end of the season and speculate who the five might be then). I suspect it's Heikki who may be a contender. He has had an unlucky season so far, and yet has proved on occasions that he can be match for Lewis.
I am going to send you a piece on "punting/betting/gambling" tomorrow. There are so many experts contributing to your site; they may as well make money from their opinions!

[Juan H]

Wow! could not agree more with him! Fortunately he's British, and will not have to hear all those nasty things that some dedicate to the Spaniards!

[Kudzu Fire]

happy motoring!

[Oliver]

Felipe Massa doesn't deserve that fifth position.

[javiervivaespania]

Bernie, you know your stuff. And you have been very kind to Massa. He needs help because he will have to find a new team soon.

[17 points in two races]

I can´t believe it!!!
A Brit telling us LH is not the perfect guy!!!
Maybe, China, Brazil, Bahrein and Montreal means something.
FA without Ron Denis at McLaren would be perfect!!!
I remeber that FA beat Michael Schumacher twice, showing him the way home

[David Hodge]

Interesting post - I think Bernie's list is pretty much in line with most of us. Indeed, ignoring personality issues, I think we all agree Fernando is the best driver, regardless of whether we like his personality, etc, etc.

Just one more thing. Ed, I think you need to put your head above the wall. Please list your top 5 with your reasons.

[Richard]

@17 points in two races - 'I remeber that FA beat Michael Schumacher twice, showing him the way home'

Do you also remember that FA is the only reigning world champion to be beaten by a rookie teammate? That's one of his records we don't hear too often!

[Verbal]

WHen has Bernie ever said anything that didn't have a financial agenda
this is the guy that said he didnt want Kimi to be WDC cos he wouldnt promote the sport
and apparently hamilton is good for f1 cos he speaks for all black people.

[Augusto Baena]

I will try to answer the best current F1 driver, but "qualifying" my answer.

In my opinion, a F-1 driver is made-up of three types of abilities. These are: driving (i.e. behind-the-wheel), pits and mental. For the sake of argument, we can weight them 40-25-35%. (If this weighting surprises you, consider that every F1 driver is already an excellent driver, and I consider the difference is not always due to strict "behind-the-wheel" abilities. A proof of this is that off-F1 races by F1 drivers like karting, race of the champions, etc, is very often won by otherwise non-star drivers. Nevertheless I am open to discuss the weightings) Driving is made up of one-lap hotlapping, race pace, wet driving, close-hand dogfighting, race management & carefulness. Pits are made up of car set-up and development and team leadership and mental is made up of concentration and competitive spirit&mindset.

I made my own excel spreadsheet trying to mark most prominent drivers with the "limited" information I have. To make a long story short, these are my results:
1. Fernando Alonso: good overall driver, excellent at the pits and strong mentality. Some concentration losses and just good at one-lapping.
2. Lewis Hamilton: Very good driver (esp. one-lapping, race pace), team leadership and competitive mindset. Some concentration losses, carelessness driving and less set-up&development skills.
3. Kimi Raikkonen: Excellent driver (at every category), good at setting up the car, but mediocre team development and relative weak mentality (concentration errors, relative lack of competitive mindset).
4. Robert Kubica: excellent driver (one lap, race pace), good team development, strong mentality. I guess his set-up skills are OK (the BMW is hard to set-up, he always outquals his team-mate, etc).
5. Nico Rosberg: Fast and skilled, I don't have enough visibility about the rest of his abilities, but I think he is performing very well with the mediocre Williams.

Regards

Augusto Baena

[Alex]

Bernie is a rattled old man, his lucrative house of cards is looking ever shakier by the day and he is taking to random lashing out at all and sundry.

Alonso was beaten in an equal car by Lewis in his rookie year, all rookies improve and FA knows all to well he would be getting spanked this year had he remained. If he is so good, why would he need No1 status ?

Lewis, interesting as Bernie uses this as a snide attempt at putting him under more pressure. It is clearly not just Mad Max who has a problem with the Silver Arrows.

Kimi is a lazy drunk, no revelation there, I guess I am not the only one slowly loosing respect for him for not making the most of his talent and opportunity.

Robert we all want to see racing against the top cars, he is clearly an excellent driver.

Felipe, "nice guy" how damning.

What we should really be looking at is the smell coming from Renault. They were caught, pants down, company wide, cheating last year, a far worse offence than that of McLaren. This somehow through FIA "Justice" got no punishment and are now busy grafting McLaren parts on to their car. This is while McLaren are running with their wings severely clipped due to the draconian monitoring of the 08 car.

Is the 08 Macca [the only car] having real troubles with its tyres as it is the only team in the pitlane [forced] to run plain air in it's tyres ? Did Ferrari hope to retain the advantage of using different gasses to make the Bridgestones work optimally ?

I would welcome a breakaway series as I want to see the best drivers and teams fighting it out fairly, not a snide circus run by permatanned Mafiosi.

[Kohque]

@AUGUSTO BAENA,
Thanks for sharing!

I have also doing some numbers, but using a different angle. I try to measure 3 qualities:

1) Fast: Comparing drivers of the same team during qualifying (If both reach Q3, then the best time in Q2). I go as far back as 2003. The fastest drivers are:

Webber, Trulli, Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Kubica.

Massa has undergone the biggest improvement in terms of speed. It seems that the Ferrari car and Schumacher's advices have paid off, because looking back few years, he wouldn't have passed Heidfield. He may be at the top of his game right now, but he relies too much in fast qualifying for that. I wouldn't bet for him.

2) Consistent (most important): Check the drivers with less unforced errors counting every circuit since 2007 (working on it...).

3) Skillful (this is the most subjective): Not including retirements, I count the number of circuits where each driver gains positions versus the number of times they lose them (the number of positions is not important).

Looking at 1) and 3) is crystal clear who are the 2 drivers that completely stand out from the crowd: Alonso and Raikkonen. I can't tell who is better (Massa is not very skillful compare to them).

The newcomers (Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg):
Hamilton doesn't really stand-out yet, and apart for the fun of watching him driving one of the top cars and giving a great fight for the championship, anything said about him is hot air. He is going to be among the top drivers for years to come, and that should be enough for now. The same can be said about Kubica. Special mention to Rosberg because he is showing some great performances lately and is improving his pace, but again, it is too early to comment.

Underrated: Mark Webber.
This guy is not only fast. He is also skillful. He's gained positions almost in every race since 2003. The key is the number of retirements. I don't know if they are due to unforced errors or car failures, but it is the latter, then this guy should be driving in one of the top teams.

Bernie has probably include Hamilton and Kubica because he has a very good nose for business. It is easy to see the expectations and then play fortune teller...

[Augusto Baena]

@ Kohque

I loved the idea of tracking the number of races in which positions are lost or won. In high attrition rates, just finishing typically implies gaining positions (except for the poleman hehe) which is not necessarily good or bad with respect to the methodology itself (it would imply some sort of "survivability", which can be the driver's or the car's).

To measure "unforced" errors might be trick, because the definition of "unforced" in unclear. A puncture might be unforced, but some drivers put more stress on the tyres than others (notably Hamilton), a spin might look like unforced, but it can be an engine, gearbox or brake problem (e.g. Coulthard's weird spin in Monaco). When Alonso spun in Canada, they put the "team radio" on and he talked about a gearbox problem (which can clearly induce a spin), however, in post-race declarations, he talked about the spin as if it had been his own fault (he went into the dirtier side of the track). Close call.

But lovely idea, keep us posted on the results!

Regards

Augusto

[Jonathan Main]

Confused here. If Bernie reckons Kubica would blow Lewis away in the same car why isn't he no.2?

Very diplomatic is Bernie!

[Jaime,California,USA]

@Alex,

Did Ron Dennis really say and I quote "we were not racing against Kimi, we were racing against Fernando"?
Did Ron Dennis really say that no one at McLaren had ever seen the documents copied from Ferrari?
There are only two possible answers to the afore questions: Yes or No.
The point is to gauge your grasp on reality.

[Jaime,California,USA]

@Alex,

Kimi a "lazy drunk"? Mate, I think you need your own "breakaway blog series" because you have certainly lost it. You attack every driver that is a threat to Lewis with insults or derisive remarks. Don't worry you'll include Kubica really soon.

[Alex]

@Jaime,California,USA,

Yes, Ron did say exactly that, and he meant it. You see, he had provided his drivers with equal cars, rare in the F1 pitlane I grant you, but equal. He wanted Lewis to win as he was getting on with his job of racing for the team, not cheating them behind his back with his friends Pedro, Mike and Nigel. That, in a nutshell explains how he was "racing against Fernando".

Likewise, when he said nobody had seen documents, he meant it, he truly believed it. Others, rivals, in the pitlane describe Ron Dennis' integrity as beyond question, if you think you know better, we need to look at your "grasp on reality".

Look at the FIA findings, for all it was a kangaroo court, they did not say the cheating was more than a few individuals. This was/is not the case with Renault.

[AJPreston]

Hi Ed.. 1] Alonso, the man who beat Michael fair and square.
2] Raikkonen, So highly rated by team bosses, who must know a bit about this caper.
3]Hamilton, the best rookie season ever against all the odds.
4]Kubica, who must be shit hot by the look of things.
5] Webber, the complete package.. patient, qualifying demon, cool under pressure.

[Kohque]

@Augusto Baena,

Indeed, it is tricky! I've taken the view that the most consistent drivers are those that adapt faster to the car and the driving conditions. That means, that unless the car doesn't allow them to continue, the driver can keep driving to the end. Whether they gain or lose positions, it will enter into 3).

Alonso's case in the last grand prix was, in my opinion, an unforced error because he knew that he was dealing with a dirty track, poor brakings and gearbox problems. He pushed the car to the limit nevertheless and try to pass Heidfield taking a different approach at the turn were most of the dirt was. He knew he could lose control, but he chose to overtake (nothing to lose). It was an unlucky race for him.

Of course, my numbers don't take into account things like strategies or team failures. I assume they more or less cancel out with the ones made by other teams, but sometimes they can mean the difference between winning or losing the championship (however, the numbers I have only try to distinguish the best drivers, not the most successful).

It is going to take some time, but I will list all the unforced errors made by the top drivers and I hope we can have a long discussion about it :)

[Galko877]

It's pretty strange to make blind statements like Alonso would show Lewis the way home, when he didn't manage it while Lewis was a rookie. I think Bernie is political as always. The Spanish market is very important, so he is sending roses to Alonso and his fans. That's all.

[Julio Medina]

Alonso is the best and has winner mentality, Lewis is as good as long the budget and godfather Ron remain important, after that he will fade away as a curiosity of the sport.

@Alex,

How can anyone know better than you?
You just proved that you either believe you are Ron Dennis or you are in fact Ron Dennis. It is rather amusing to see that you are in fact as rabid a supporter of McLaren as some other bloggers are of FA. The fact that he,Ron Dennis, later admitted that he had seen the documents doesn't register in your fanatic mind. Anyway, it is already proven that McLaren cheated and you can use the five year old technique of blaming others but personal responsibility starts with oneself.
Let us know what Ron Dennis "truly believes" and "really means". :)

[christo]

@everyone who says Hamilton beated Alonso in his rookie season...how many point did Alonso have how many points did Hamilton have...ok now think about Hungaroring--Bahrein--Canada--Indianapolis
at all these places Alonso could have won or scored more points then Hamilton..but couldn`t because or his tyres where not ok due to tyre pressures this was proven...or due to the FIA giving Alonso a grid penalty whils this is not in the FIA regulation...
So YES Alonso this yeat even last year would have walked over Hamilton...was it not that Ron wanted his protege to win...

[tommy]

don't get too excited about this ranking - couse I think few of you misuderstood whole idea - what I mean there are 3 ways of understanding what he said:
1) the list is made degressively - from best driver to worst but meaning only pure skill and speed, without given cars - if not for sure Alonso wouldn't be first, would he?
Secondly, if we understand it in this way, then why Lewis is above Robert, if later on Bernie says that in similar conditions robert would be better? So this way of thinking is not correct.

2) this is ranking with drivers + cars, but why Alonso is on the first place with this year renault? so this is also incorrect.

3) The only way we can think about this ranking is that it is made without any rank, he simply mentioned 5 top drivers without any order...+ info that for him Kubica is better than Lewis...that's it....

[Laura]

Everyone know why LH finnished last year wuth the same points like FA, not because he was better or something like that. Unfair play coming from FIA and Mclaren, this is the truth. LH never win FA, he don't demostrate to be the best. FA is millions times better than LH, he fight against Schumi, Kimi,...In Mclaren FA had the enemies in his house Mclaren, Ron, LH and FIA, they had very bad behaviour with a doublechampion like FA, person who improved Mclaren car last year.

[LAK]

I don't necessarily agree with Bernie's order, but I think his views are quite honest and realistic.

[Denny]

Maclaren,s problems have been brought on by themselves; they got rid of their best driver for an upstart (who benefited from the set-up tips provided by Alonso). They allowed the squabble to develop and didn't punish LH when he misbehaved; the infamous not letting him past (despite team instructions) during the qualifying.

Strange that the FA punished one driver for impeding ... but not the other .. That demotion effectively cost Alsonso and Maclaren the WC last year ..

[Richard]

@Denny - "Strange that the FA punished one driver for impeding ... but not the other"

It isn't strange - LH may have broken team orders but he didn't contravene any FIA regulations, whereas FA did.

I'm sure the FIA would have loved to have penalise both McLarens if they'd had the opportunity. They even took the constructors points off the team for Alonso's misdemeanour, even though what he did harmed no-one but themselves.

[A Prost]

Dear Richard, as a respected blogger, could you tell me which FIA regulation did Alonso contravene in Hungaroring? I want to know which law he broke. The law of disturbing our boy? Please stop defending Hamilton.

I could name a few regulations that Hamilton contravened last year and went unpunished. In Japan he broke several, including when he suddenly stopped before launching when the first safety car came into pits – sill under safety car conditions)- Reg 40.7 Any car being driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or which is deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers at any time whilst the safety car is deployed will be reported to the stewards. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

Nurburing: Reg 30.7 Save as specifically authorised by the Code or these Sporting regulations, NO ONE EXCEPT THE DRIVER, may touch a stopped car unless it is in the paddock, the team’s designated garage area, the pit lane or on the starting grid. – cranes are not allowed!

Just have a look at the Japanese GP video
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x2WT0Y8FpxY&feature=related

Unfortunately for Hamilton, FIA will not tolerate a single infringement this year (why should they? - they know who’s behind Max Mosley's secret filming). Last year they did...because they wanted him to win the WDC. When will you get that? As you can see, I (and surely many of us) disagree with your opinion when you write: “I'm sure the FIA would have loved to have penalised both McLarens if they'd had the opportunity. They even took the constructors points off the team for Alonso's misdemeanour, even though what he did harmed no-one but themselves”. You seem to forget Hamilton’s misdemeanour (but we realise that you always speak half truths)

Basically FIA are right as long as they do not touch our hero.

Yesterday's penalty absolutely right! Are you going to debate that as well? I hope you're not.
Should Kimi have been black flagged - may be yes - but it’s his turn this year to have the FIA on his side. He openly supported Max Mosley!