Fernando is on his own at the top

EG writes: Anon(the real one) has done his maths and here is the result of our poll to find the top-five drivers in Formula One right now. The numbers confirm that Fernando is out on his own (he is my choice as number one) and, despite some voting along "party lines", the Spanish double world champion has won this particular race fair and square.

I have been a fairly strong critic of Fernando's conduct out of the car last season but have admired his skills behind the wheel. It is sad that such a great driver is tooling around in the wrong machinery and might yet go to even more wrong teams before he ends up at a right one, if he ever does. It is still a legitimate question as to whether Fernando will ever be world champion again. For example, if he does get back into a top car in two years time say, he may not be the driver he was last year. Only time will tell. In the meantime we are getting used to seeing him looking frustrated, like a bear with a sore head...

Anyway thanks to Anon for suggesting this thread and doing the numbers, despite being on the road this week by the sound of it. Here is his analysis.

ANON(THE REAL ONE) writes:

OK so here goes. A few notes before the winners.

First, the points system went like this: five points for first place, 4 for 2nd, 3 for 3rd, 2 for 4th, and 1 for fifth.

I had to ignore a lot of posts because they only listed four people or had a tie. I apologize but it is not statistically fair to post these and I tried to give warnings to people that their votes would not be counted.

Also, remember that this vote has been taken in light of the recent Canadan GP, where Kubica took his fist win, Lewis made the howler of his career, and Fernando drove like a madman until he well, failed (sorta).

The WINNER:

1st FERNANDO ALONSO
By 102 points, the clear out winnner. Fernando enjoyed a massive turnout from both Spanish and British. It may be a result of pity for him, to see a man who could certainly win races be humbled in a Renault. But one thing is sure: with such a margin, he would win despite any nationalistic votes (if you cancel all nationalistic votes, not just those for him).

2nd KIMI RAIKKONEN
Kimi had one big disadvantage in this poll - he was neither Spanish nor British, the two main pools of people from this blog(Note from Ed: Spanish readers have slipped to third in the rankings behind Britain and the US). But he tried hard and, after having fallen back 102 points, he kept pace with Fernando. At one point however, it looked like the 3rd place man would overtake him. And about that third-placed man, what a surprise!

3rd ROBERT KUBICA
He had a hard duel with the fourth-placed guy. Anyway, scoring your debut win gets you votes! I think there was one guy who claimed he was Polish and who voted for Kubica - so really, a well deserved "podium" finish.

4th LEWIS HAMILTON
Well, if this poll was taken right after Monaco, the results would certainly have been different. At one point, Lewis was within striking range of Robert and looked ready for the overtake. It didn't come though, and Robert drifted ahead and at one point it looked like he might snatch second from Kimi.

5th FELIPE MASSA
Felipe's inconsistency, alas, made his voting income very inconsistent. A lot of people (me included) simply didn't put him in the top five. A slight reminder though - he has finished in the points as many times as Lewis and Kimi and more times than Heikki. In fact, his retirement in Australia was mechanical which would make him more consistent than Lewis, who had two non-mechanical crashes. Not trying to bash Lewis (I think he's the better driver), but I had a feeling of pity for Massa.

So here are the totals for each driver.

Alonso 569 RENAULT
Raikkonen 467 FERRARI
Kubica 419 BMW
Hamilton 356 MCLAREN
Massa 157 FERRARI
Heidfeld 44 BMW
Rosberg 40 WILLIAMS
Webber 27 RED BULL
Vettel 21 TORO ROSSO
Kovalainnen 15 MCLAREN
Button 10 HONDA
Coulthard 9 RED BULL
Sutil 8 FORCE INDIA
Trulli 6 TOYOTA
Barrichello 5 HONDA
Sato 3 SUPER AGURI
Bourdais 1 TORO ROSSO
Fisichella 1 FORCE INDIA
Glock 1 TOYOTA

As you can see, I marked the teams they were driving for. Here are the combined totals for the team-mates. This way, we can see which team has the best line-up, in our opinion.

Ferrari 624
Renault 569
BMW 463
McLaren 371
Williams 40
Red Bull 36
Toro Rosso 22
Honda 15
Force India 9
Toyota 7
Super Aguri 3

Notice there were three drivers with no votes. They were Davidson, Nakajima, and Piquet. I find this harsh on Davidson and Nakajima especially, as even Fisichella, Bourdais, and Glock got into the points.

Unfortunately I won't be back until Thursday, so I won't be able to answer your comments. But anyway, really hope you enjoyed the post and thank you again Mr. Gorman to have kindly acquiesced to my request.

Take care all of you and hope for a great Magny-Cours Grand Prix!

Comments

[17 points in two races]

@ Richard
"Do you also remember that FA is the only reigning world champion to be beaten by a rookie teammate? That's one of his records we don't hear too often"
Yes he showed the way home to Schumacher twice, in 2005 and 2006 with a Renault the 5th budget´s team.
He is the youngest WDC, the youngest 2 times WDC and finally my apreciated LH is going to be too old for this record if he dont win this year.
Last year Ron Denis maked a perfect job: no WDR, paying money por cheating, and without the best driver on the track. He made the same mistake with Raikonen, Montoya, etc.
Hamilton has another record, the first driver who push the wrong button in five races!!!, nothing to say to the red lights ...

[D]

^
Thanks, Anon. Great idea and brilliant job. Well done!

Thanks to Ed, too, for hosting it.

Isn't this place great!

[David Hodge]

Big thanks to Anon (the real one) for his work on this. I think the list pretty much reflects the general opinion and I suppose the top 5 is not really a surprise.

Lower down the list is interesting. I agree with Anon. I too am surprised that Nakajima (fast but erratic) did not make it but Sato (fast but erratic) and Massa (even faster but erratic) did. Also, where was poor Ant? I suppose he has the same reputation as Alex Wurz whether that is deserved or not - brilliant tester, brilliant technician, brilliant communicator but just lacking that little spark for racing.

To be fair, every single one of them must be very good to maintain some sort of control of those machines - hopefully most bloggers here were able to see the Top Gear episode where Richard drove an F1 car and looked ridiculous - as he said, he could not think fast enough to drive it. Even Nelson Piquet Jnr can do that.

Anyway, looking forward to France, I expect they will fuel Lewis light for qualifying, he will get P1 then start P11. What does he do? A reasonable two-stop and try to charge through the field or a one-stop? As an aside, what are the rules - as he is pushed down to P11, can he then choose a fuel strategy or because he qualifies in the top ten before the penalty is applied, have to lock off his fuel? I just have a feeling this might be Heikki's first win.

[Derek Smith]

The word ‘best’ is rather woolly. Going by the range of replies, there would appear to be a need for the top-five best definitions of ‘best’ post.

In 42 years of following the sport I have come to the – hardly earth-shattering – conclusion that to be ‘best’ a driver must have many skills. One of the most fundamental is being picked for a team which has a chance of winning. Senna didn’t do much until he slotted into the McLaren. Mind you, I accept it was some time even then before anyone could define his driving as ‘best’. Would Schumacher still be regarded as ‘best’ if he had stayed in the Jordan?

Despite this, with Alonso wandering around the midfield in a Renault, he hits the top slot. It’s very strange.

So what does ‘best’ mean? It would appear that logic has little to do with it. Going through the listings one finds the rather strange fact that those who list Alonso as ‘best’ put the drivers who beat him last season behind him. In the case of Kimi, one could perhaps suggest that it was the car that gave him the edge but what about Lewis? Equal machinery, yet further up the charts. Indeed, many who picked Alonso as their first choice excluded Lewis entirely. So what definition of ‘best’ could they be using?

If I were to be asked the ‘best’ driver I have seen in my 42 years I would have no hesitation in saying Clark. So one must ask why. His qualities were that he was fast, faster in saloons and single seaters than anyone else in similar machinery. But would that alone be enough? It would, obviously, make him the fastest, but ‘best’?

The most abiding memory I have of him is that he seemed to transmit his enjoyment of racing. It seems odd for a chap with such a dour presence, but he made racing fun.

That’s not an award anyone in this top five can claim.

But isn’t ‘best’ what the driver’s championship is all about? The easiest way to find the ‘best’ five, albeit one that would not give so many column inches, is the tables. At least there is some logic in it. Fair enough, luck has a lot to do with it but luck has a lot to do with everything.

Senna, who surely must have been in everyone’s top five during his career, was by no means ‘best’ in his early years. In fact he made himself look a bit of a fool at times. So is ‘best’ something to do with one’s current form rather than historical? Those who criticise Lewis for comparing himself to Senna when making so many driving errors obviously wasn’t around in Senna’s early days. Indeed, his propensity for driving into cars, either deliberately or unintentionally, kept me on the edge of my seat. You never knew. Lewis needs a few more accidents before he should compare himself with one of the greats.

So what is the point of such posts? All this one seems to prove is that prejudice is a powerful block to logic and stops one looking to facts to make a decision. Indeed, some seem to use the post as a method of criticism.

I was sitting in the stands at Brands one year after final qualifying for the GP and discussing this very subject. I pointed out, very reasonably I thought, that Warwick was considerably smoother than Mansell. An old chap (about my age now I suppose) in the row in front had obviously been listening to our arguments and had had enough. He turned as said: Warwick is half a second slower than Mansell. He’s entitled to be smoother.

He then joined in our conversation and said that, in his opinion, the drivers who were on top of their game could only be separated by fractions and that any grading or sorting was a waste of time. It was a team event and any consideration of the drivers alone was a nonsense.

Perhaps it’s an age thing but I have a great deal of sympathy with his point of view. They are all good. Grading seems to me to be a bit pointless. That drivers are only as good as their last race is a vicious truism. Post Monaco, who could have voted against Lewis? Post Canada, who could possibly vote for him?

The drivers I’ve liked ‘best’ are those who seem to support the ethic of sportsmanship, who get on with the job, those who put something into the sport without making demands to get something more out. Clark and de Angelis would be in my list of all time ‘best’ but there’s little common ground between them on driving ability.

Is there an Elio on the current grid?

[javiervivaespania]

We all Spaniards are happy with the result. It also proved that all F1 lovers who are not unbiased by British nationalistic feelings also vote for our Champion.

I do not see why De la Rosa was not included in the list. Being a test driver is being also a part of the team and the job of De la Rosa is huge. He is the only one now in McLaren who knows how to set up a car and I know that Hamilton and Kovalainen rely heavily on him.

[Richard]

@17 points in two races -

As an Alonso supporter, it's not really very clever to talk about Ron Dennis cheating. There was no evidence that RD knew about what was going on, whereas there was evidence that your hero Alonso was discussing the Ferrari data with fellow Spaniard, de la Rosa.

The question is, why did he receive no punishment? Why wasn't he excluded from the championship for cheating? I expect it is down to money - those running the sport were probably enjoying the surge in popularity of F1 in Spain (and the increased revenue that comes from it), and they didn't want to jeopardise it.

At least Lewis can hold his head up high over this as there was no evidence that he had any involvement in it.

Do you not see the hypocrisy of criticising the team for cheating when your hero was also involved?

[MDH]

Yes, thanks Anon and Ed, certainly provided some entertaining comment over the past week, and also some interesting results!

Right chaps, what's next??

[IDR]

Anon (The real one) thanks a lot for taking your time to do the stats!

It is a pity you’re on the road not having the opportunity to comment with us the results until Thursday. Well a pity for us, you are on holidays!

I’m more than satisfied seeing many people, as me, thinks Fernando is the best current driver.

If you look at the overall package: Speed, Driving capacities, set up skills, consistency, race strategy, determination, practical approach and, yes, mental strength. Fernando Alonso is the most complete driver of the grid.

Do you remember the Volkswagen Golf GTI 16v? That car had a great success and suddenly starts to appear other sport cars as Opel Kadett GSI, Peugeot 205 GTI 16v… When you saw a comparison between them, the Volkswagen was not always on pole in every tested measure, but at the end of the comparison, everybody agreed Golf GTI was the best one.

The main weakness of Fernando is his communications skills. (One only has to watch Fernando’s Tv spots). All of us take our driver’s image based on what we see at the track and what we read at the press. And in the case of Fernando, I got the impression he is not conscious at all in many occasions about the big repercussion of what he says (and how his declarations are translated to another language in some other)

Anyway, I think as Fernando is not a real title contender for this year, the press (English press, mostly) is much more relaxed with him, and I think this is something indirectly reflected in the result of this poll.

I would like Fernando stays in Renault recovering the pace of the 2005-2006 car. But honestly talking this is something that not depends only on Fernando but the future plans of Renault and their commitment to invest hardly in the coming years also.

Keeping in mind the actual gap of Renault's car, all the changes coming for F1 and the motorcar industry without the best sales scenario for the future, it seems to me a little bit hard to believe Renault is going to push, as they should do to achieve those goals.

[Aaron James]

Ed, it would be an interesting question to put to Fernando this weekend the results of this poll and to ask him how he feels about his reputation now he isn't in a leading car.

In 2005 and 2006 there were quite some comments from Fernando that he didn't get the respect he deserved for those titles. In 2005 many said he was lucky to beat Kimi. In 2006 he owed a rare Ferrari engine failure in Japan to beat Michael.

It seems now though Fernando is finally starting to get the respect his titles earned. Maybe now that he is showing what he can do in substandard equipment we are all starting to view his titles in a slightly different light (I know I am as a die-hard Schumi fan).

It would be interesting then to hear Alonso's thoughts on how he is perceived by fans given the travails of this season and last.

Anyway thumbs up Anon - thanks for tallying everything up!

[Felipe]

Dear Richard,

You usually make some sense, so I'm going to assume you just had a lapse. There is no way that Alonso and De la Rosa had information on Ferrari and neither Hamilton nor Dennis knew about it. Supposedly Ron runs a tight ship and controls evertything... this seems like pretty big to me, and he would be doing a terrible job if he wasn't aware of this. Even though he's pretty bad a man managing...

[Alonso fan]

Alonso is amazing, He almost won last season even been the ->second<- pilot with the worst car. Also taking ridiculous penalties to keep him away from the battle...

If last wear battle between hamilton and Alonso was been in Ferrari, it has been a fair-equal fight... McLaren was completly biased towards Haimito

[IDR]

Oh my God!

I've seen photocopiers sales men better dressed than Fernando in this Pic.

At least one or two sizes less for the Jacket... or 10cm more of shoulders wide.

Maybe 30 Million € a year is not enough to buy a taylored suit.

He definetively needs a PR but a personal image advisor too!

[Stelmara]

What a silly man Alonso is, if he had knuckled down instead of having constant huffs he probably would have won last year and would be leading this year in a McLaren.
His problem is his head and I agree with Ed he may never be champion again as others are getting better and all the time and he is getting older.
As has been said, it should not be forgotten that Lewis beat him last year in the same car and would have been champion had he had just a little more experience and that is a simple fact.
I think Lewis and Robert will be the two leading drivers in the very near future and if Alonso isn't very careful he will end up being another Jacques Villeneuve and look how he left the sport, replaced by Robert.
I also think Kimi would be better off retiring now as he clearly isn't as focused as he used to be and he only became F1 champion last year because of the whole McLaren situation. Had he driven last year as he had 2 years previously for McLaren he would have breezed it, you have to take your hat off to any driver that still has it that says I have had enough, I am now going to do other things with my life, I wish him well.
I wonder how Montoya would have faired in this listing if he was still in F1 as hew was a great driver when he was great and a fabulous overtaker, lets start a campaign to bring him back.

Stella

[El Ponso]

Hi Anon, thankyou for going through all posts and putting up with some nonsense. The same goes for Ed.
Good job and good comments.
Incidentally, there's an interview with Fernando in today's papers, in Spain. He was attending a prize giving act (see picture above), in which he was presented with the award 'Dialogo' acting between France and Spain.
Among other things he said that he might be driving for another team in 2009. And guess what, it could be BMW!
I just thought that, as a BMW fan, you surely would be interested.
He's also asked about Hamilton, but as no doubt the british press would be echoing his comments in the usual manner (lost in traslation) I won't bother to mention those here.
Thanks again Anon, and keep up the good work.
Hasta luego.

[javiervivaespania]

IDR, the important point about this picture is that it shows the other Fernando, the one heavily commited to altruistic causes, like in this case, to the frienship between French and Spanish. There are many examples of his contribution to other good causes, like when he participated in a football match to raise funds for charities or when he donated one of those huge champagne bottles that was eventually traded in a tv programme for another celebrity's object, the cup that Rafael Nadal won in Roland Garros I think, which was later sold to a Spanish bank foundation in exchange for supplies and goods for some poor people in Southamerica. Fernando is not only the best driver in F1...

[Alonso fan]

For people (stelmara) saying FA is getting older:

FA has 3 more years than LH
FA has 2 more World Championships than LH

FA has enough years (Now I'm talking of years, not skill nor car) to double the WC of Schumacher.

Talking about records:
- LH the best rookie season
- LH get the best rookie car ever
- LH get as rookie ALL the support from McLaren ignoring a double champion <- That is record because was the worst strategy from a team EVER. GRATS McLata!!

[Derek Smith]

Does anyone else think that Mclaren have learned from last year? Despite being the poorer by $100,000,000 they have again run at the front. The lack of discord in the team might have something to do with it but RD seems to be buzzing again and it's good to see.

It would have been so easy for the team to sulk and blame everyone else (let's face it, they had a role model to follow in their own team last season), the only thing they've really done is to get better despite the restrictions placed on them. McLaren's qualified non-apology was a big risk and I thought that it indicated that they would carry all the fall-out into 2008 but I underestimated the team.

Before deciding whether Alonso is indeed the best driver on the grid one must consider that far from bringing 6/10ths to McLaren last year he nearly brought disaster. He cost McLaren $100m. That knocks him down the list to my way of thinking. Driving the fastest car and still ending up third isn't the normal qualification for best on the grid. The top drives get the team around them. Alonso alienated his.

Before us finding out whether he is up at the top we must wait until next season and see him in a car where, presumably, he will no longer be no. 1. I can't see Kubica playing second fiddle. Frying pan and fire - if the Pole is as good as he seems (despite his performance last season) he'll push Alonso in exactly the same way as LH did last. And maybe even push past him.

[Kormak]

Alonso getting older?

LOL.

Alonso 29/07/1981
Kimi 17/10/1979
Kubica 07/12/1984
Lewis 07/01/1985
Massa 25/04/1981

Schumacher 03/01/1969
Retired at the end of 2006. 38 years-old.

If Alonso does as schumacher he will be a top driver until 2018.

[IDR]

@JAVIERVIVAESPAÑA

Relax a little bit mate!

I think one can comment something in a more superficial way, and this doesn't represent an insult to anybody.

The fact is, independently of how much F Alonso would be commited with charity, I don't like the suit he chose for this event.

That's all. No second lectures on that, and not so difficult to understand, I think.

@ED

You were absolutelly right. Not a good idea to show the pic I sent to you.

[17 points in two races]

@ Richard

So as i thought, Ron Denis didn´t know what was happeing in his team. A man who chose the coffe in McLaren motorhome, didn´t know anything, but of course Alonso, Pedro De la Rosa begun to shout !!!A MIRACLE!!! A MIRACLE!!! We know what Mclaren has to do, we got a vision...
Of course Louis, was studing how to push the wrong button twice in between four races, how the red light is above the green one, and how to brake if he see the back of Alonso´s car.
TEN YEARS WITHOUT WDC AT MCLAREN WITH THE SECOND BUDGET IS BECAUSE RON DENIS IS DOING A VERY GOOD JOB!
Only one question, there was or there wasn´t a economic penalty for McLaren?
LH in Hungaroring 2007 told very bad words to Ron Denis. He began to talk in Monaco, and he continues...

Pd. I like very much the way he overtake. Not all is bad in that guy, but he thinks he is Schumacher son´s and he is only Ron Denis´s son in law

[17 points in two races]

@ STELMARA

Don´t you remember Montoya´s words?
He said "When I knew Fernando was going to McLaren, I told my wife he will suffer very, very much because of Ron Denis" The same said Coulthard..., and Kimi didn´t say anything (but probably he is very happy to change to Ferrari)

Please, we want to know more about your partyline with Weasel? Be careful, Mosley begun this way...

[M.C.]

Well said Dereck Smith, one of the few coherent posts in a million

[Alonso fan]

Derek
"he'll push Alonso in exactly the same way as LH did last. And maybe even push past him."

LH was not who pushed him there, was RD indeed...

[Kohque]

@Derek Smith,

One person alienating a whole team? Maybe, but unlikely. It is easier to see it the other way around. The one feeling alienated was Alonso. For whatever reason he just didn't feel supported. There are things that people seem not to understand unless they have been in a similar situation. When you have a home team, a home driver and a foreign driver, trying to apply equal terms does not result in anything near equal for the foreign person. Hamilton felt pretty much at home. The engineers got along with Hamilton easily. Alonso's poor English and different background made more difficult for him to get along with anyone. If on top of that you add the fact that he was the current champion and Hamilton became his main rival imagine how screwed he felt. He would have needed at least a year without Hamilton and the team behind him to strengthen their team work (and his English), but it didn't happen that way. He felt really 'foreign' and unsupported, so he left.

The 100m investment was done by Ron Dennis, so he is only to blame. He should have allowed both drivers to use their own strategies and take full control of their own engineers and data. At least, it would have minimized all that mistrust and bad blood between both drivers.

[Galko877]

"Driving the fastest car and still ending up third isn't the normal qualification for best on the grid. The top drives get the team around them. Alonso alienated his."

I agree with Derek Smith. Wholeheartedly!

[Javier]

Richard wrote:
@17 points in two races -

As an Alonso supporter, it's not really very clever to talk about Ron Dennis cheating. There was no evidence that RD knew about what was going on, whereas there was evidence that your hero Alonso was discussing the Ferrari data with fellow Spaniard, de la Rosa.

The question is, why did he receive no punishment? Why wasn't he excluded from the championship for cheating? I expect it is down to money - those running the sport were probably enjoying the surge in popularity of F1 in Spain (and the increased revenue that comes from it), and they didn't want to jeopardise it.

At least Lewis can hold his head up high over this as there was no evidence that he had any involvement in it.

Do you not see the hypocrisy of criticising the team for cheating when your hero was also involved?

Richard, if RD, Mw and Paddy Lowe did not know about the Ferrari data being discussed and tested by their engineers (remember "the mole" as per senior engineers write in internal mails and memo´s), he´s the worst manager a company can have.

I am afraid that it would be even worse than being caught cheating.

Personally I don´t believe it.

Regarding Alonso being "beaten" by a rookie, I have never seen a 4th place being so important to people.

Considering everything that happened to Alonso (although he is responsible too, he also made mistakes) which would be considered mobing by any judge, ending 3rd one point away from the WDC is not that bad...

Then you have stewards and marshalls, who were like Hamilton bodyguards...yes Alonso was beaten (LOL)

[Loh of Malaysia]

Take this from a Malaysian guy, Hamilton is REALLY GOOD, Alonso is BETTER.

Despite having his team strategising and racing against him, Alonso finished level points with Hamilton. You may say he lost to a rookie, but I'd say that was a tremendous achievement. When RD hate you, he REALLY hate you. Too bad RD, still no titles after 10 years. Could've won both, instead, you lost both titles and one heck of a great champ.

[Richard]

@ 17 points..., Felipe, Javier.

Can I just remind you of the earlier post. I was replying to the post of 17 points which criticised Ron Dennis for 'paying por cheating' whilst singing the praises of Fernando Alonso. My response was simply that it is somewhat hypocritical to do this when:

a) There was no EVIDENCE that Ron Dennis knew about the affair, whilst
b) There WAS evidence that Alonso was himself involved in it

Guys, please put aside your assumptions of guilt and hatred of all things McLaren for a moment and respond to the simple facts: Alonso was found to have cheated last year, so to criticise others for it but not him is hypocritical. If you can't bring yourselves to criticise Alonso for it, then perhaps you shouldn't bring up the subject of cheating at all.

[Richard]

@ Javier - 'if RD....did not know about the Ferrari data being discussed....he´s the worst manager a company can have'

What about the Ferrari management who allowed their own employee to walk out with all that data? They even prosecuted former employees for taking data to Toyota several years earlier, so they had prior warnings about the security of their data, and should have put safeguards in place back then.

And what about Toyota's management? Shouldn't they have known about the data their team was using which was stolen from Ferrari? Their car even looked like the Ferrari! So were they the worst managers a company can have too?

And what about Renault's management? Should they have known about the data their employees were using which was stolen from McLaren? Were they the worst managers a company can have as well?

No, clearly the worst manager in the paddock is Ron Dennis, because he was the one who got the $100m fine. Why there have been no punishments for the other teams is only down to the fact that all the others are good managers, obviously.

I don't suppose there's any point in emphasising Ron Dennis's huge success in F1, because it can only be down to luck - the 'worst manager a company can have' clearly couldn't have achieved it any other way.

[Derek Smith]

Kohque,

My point was that Alonso could not or did not get the team around him. I would suggest that both MShumacher and Senna did in whatever team they drove for.

I can't see where the suggestion that RD hated Alonso comes from. He might have done after the cheating was revealed, but I'm not sure that it started earlier. If RD did indeed despise Alonso from the beginning one wonders why he paid so much for him to drive for McLaren. Mind you, I bet RD asked himself that question at the end of the season.

It is a weakness in Alonso's make-up that was shown in the McLaren team. You can, and perhaps should, blame the team for some of it but if Alonso was to be considered in the same breath as Senna, MScheuy and Piquet (at Brabham at least) then he needs to sort out that side of his temperament. It's no good being the world's best driver apart from left hand bends. It's a requirement.

Mclaren have never seemed plrticularly to favour home grown talent. Indeed, I bet they use Finish in their dishwasher. Senna was a foreigner but he made McLaren his.

To wonder why Alonso failed in such a fundamental part of the job description for a F1 champion as getting on with his team, one cannot say it was because of his nationality.

[17 points in two races]

@Richard
There was no EVIDENCE that Ron Dennis knew about the affair, whilst
b) There WAS evidence that Alonso was himself involved in it

So you think with yours feet, so who is the king of hipocrisy?

We have evidence that Max Mosley likes partys with women paying, but if I see someone going out the same place every day, I don´t have EVIDENCE!! Isn´t right?
WHO IS THE HIPOCRITE? FA and De la Rosa must be talking with a wall, not with engineers and their boss super-super-super Ron-Ron-Ron DENNIS. A example of british integrity and equality (despite he was angry in Hungaroring 2007 and he was called weasel? by LH)

Of course, I didn´t remember that Kimi, Montoya, and all the drivers who change team next year, are previosly and carefully deleted their brains, so they can remember anything!

Of course Richard, I think Ron Dennis is a self made man, and I apreciated that, but 2007 was his annus horribilis (awful year, from latin)

[Didier Is Best (DIB)]

I wish there were more posters of the calibre of Derek Smith.
When discussing the best driver, I think the only question you need to ask is, given the choice, who would you put in your own f1 car.
I wonder if there are other people like myself who find it harder each year to have a favourite driver. In my view it is harder to chose between drivers' because their skills have had to change more akin to those of pilots.... demonstrating how important the car is nowadays. Obvious I know but true.
What I don't understand is why we don't go back to how the rules were in the early 80's. Give the teams tanks that last the race, together with 3/4 grades of tyres, the hardest of which capable of lasting the race. We'll see more diverse racing which I think is more interesting.
I was a Nelson Piquet fan, but can anyone remember Senna's great race in 1986(or was it 1987) at Italy?
I don't think great drivers' like Lauda or Prost would do well in today's f1 scene.
Discuss please, especially Mr Smith.

[Typical Spanish fan]

Richard:
"Alonso was found to have cheated last year"

No, he wasn't, McLaren was. ¿Who got fined?

"And what about Renault's management? Should they have known about the data their employees were using which was stolen from McLaren? Were they the worst managers a company can have as well?"

They reacted fast, closing the files and warning McL and FIA, Learn from them!

DEREK:
"To wonder why Alonso failed in such a fundamental part of the job description for a F1 champion as getting on with his team, one cannot say it was because of his nationality."

I think is more complex:
- being spanish
- Not being your son-in-law
- Not being "godfathered" since he was a child
- Not act like a hollywood star (like RD loves)

If you have a quick driver as LH is, binded to you and with your loved social-party-press skills. And you have a double WC who gets the best of every circuit with your car and a winner car. => Then teach the telemetry to the quick driver, bring together all the efforts of the team on the young guy and cross your finger in order the rookie don't act as a rookie.

OOOOH Epic FAIL!!!! If he had won it have been a Record, a lot of publicity, a lot of money and a great thing for RD curriculum.

But the rookie was a rookie, even with all the support and the best car and fuel-strategy, he fail. And now he is failing again...

Maybe RD don't bet sooo well.

[MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP]

Well, here we come again: Alonso vs. Lewis and/or Lewis vs. Alonso.

There is some people talking here about the Renault affair and comparing it to the McLaren’s affair. Please, could you explain to me what is the similitude between those two affairs, how can they be compared, any comments about Matt Bishop and the influence of Ron Dennis (and McLaren) on that?

I'll ask the following questions:

1) When will you guys recognise that Ron Dennis knew everything about Stepneygate,
2) When will you recognise that Lewis Hamilton knew as much as Alonso did (this is what Alonso has said in uncountable occasions - but no, Alonso must be telling porkpies - Ron Dennis of course wouldn't - even if he has a recent track record that demonstrates otherwise).
3) When will you recognise that McLaren treated Lewis Hamilton as No 1 (not necessarily because he was English but because he was Ron Dennis protégé, a McLaren bred driver) - so Hamilton did not beat Alonso - Alonso was beaten by his own team...
4) When will you recognise that some of the marshals/stewards decisions seen last year were most bizarre and clearly biased in Lewis’ favour?
5) When will you recognise that Alonso was not excluded from the championship because to do so FIA would have felt obliged to also exclude Lewis (and that was unthinkable, wasn’t it)?

When will you recognise...
I know the answer – NEVER

Your friend

MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP

@Richard,

It is a fact that Ron Dennis admitted that he knew of the existence of Ferrari's documents.
I don't know why you and a couple of bloggers keep insisting of his innocence. The difference with Renault is that they didn't try to cover it up as McLaren did. If you cannot discern this fundamental difference I suggest you chat with a lawyer.

Thanks to the Man From The Photocopy Shop for stating what 99% of Formula one fans already accepted as fact.

[Kohque]

@ Derek Smith,

I understand your point and I gave you some reasons for it (I don't agree with his decision to leave a competitive car anyway).

I didn't suggest that RD hated Alonso (you got that from another person).

The comparison with Senna misses my point. The only comparison would be with Hakkinen-Coulthard (Finnish-British), but Hakkinen joined 3 years earlier than Coulthard, which is in line with what I said: If Hamilton had joined a year later, McLaren team and Alonso may have worked things out with each other.

The job of winning championships is shared by all the team, but you insist in making the drivers the persons responsible for leading it when it is in McLaren where this feature is most removed from them. The biggest responsibility and leading role goes to the team manager. If anyone failed big time last year, it was Ron Dennis. The driver has the responsibility to drive the car as fast as possibly can and guide engineers to improve the set-up. In both counts, Alonso excels. I guess the engineers at McLaren excel in providing one of the most competitive cars of Formula 1.

Nationality is not the problem. The problem is language and culture, both of which need some time to work out.

[Derek Smith]

Max Rufus Mosely admitted after the swinging fine that he did not believe that Ron Dennis knew that two of his drivers, Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa, were cheating. Yet the only reason McLaren were found guilty was that, as MRM said, "One can only say it’s extremely improbable that Ron didn’t know. . . . When you’ve known somebody for 40 years it’s very difficult just to say, 'Well, I don’t believe you.' But in the end no hard-nosed lawyer or policeman would believe it for a moment."

And that was the sole basis of the finding of guilt, which MRM later retracted.

RD did not know of the 780pp document. He was given information about the illegal Ferrari floor, and another very dubious fitting, and was aware of its source but not of the full document.

Coughlan and Stepney colluded for reasons which have not yet been disclosed but there is little doubt that they did not do it for the benefit of anyone but themselves.

The only persons found cheating apart from Coughlan and Stepney, and by their own admissions, were Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa.

I don't like cheats. I'm all for a bit of rule bending and pushing the barriers but what Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa did was to betray the trust of their team in the most selfish manner. This wasn't a case of infiltrating the other team's pits and taking a few piccies, this was sytemised cheating over an extended period of time.

They were given absolution by pope Mosley but that doesn't stop them being cheats.

But that's over now and one can but hope that these leopards will change their spots.

I can’t help thinking that those who believe that RD is trustworthy are those who have been following F1 since well before 2003.

[guille]

I must say, generally speaking (there are some exceptions, although) and regarding the results of the poll, that british F1 fans tend to be far more impartial, less hooliganish than the spanish ones. It's a pity to see such fanatism in this sport. We have enough in football. And what do we earn if Alonso is agenius behind the wheel (which he is, undoubtely).

That doesn't mean there aren't britosh hooligans here, who react if any spanish fan says "hamilton".

I'm spanish, by the way.

Great blog, Ed

[Verbal]

fair enough, the people have spoke, cant argue with that...
Alonso has a few questions to answer in my book i.e. if he is so brilliant, WHY or how did Hamilton voted 4th, keep so close to him and at some tracks overshadowed him ??? all the other team mates FA has had have been no where and thats the only real measure of the driver. I ask again how bad/good is that renault how can we honestly with confidence say its a dog.

It should also be noted, and I think our learned friend has aluded, Raikkonen is the only one with a strong team mate, one whos made the top five.
The problem too is if one is of a calm disposition then observers especially those not well aquainted may asume one is uncarring or lost interest, I know, I've been there.

Interesting point raised by some bloggers here Alonso vs Kubica in the same car, I lookforward to that

Is Derek Smith the same man as F1-Insider
javiervivaespania - dont get carried away test drivers are as such for a reason

In France McLaren will go light with LH, perhaps even a 3 stopper and Heavy with Heiki

[MDA]

On the general subject of cheating in F1, may I refer everybody to one of Ed's early posts, "I spy" (April 5, 2007)? It makes it clear that trying to get "inspiration" from rival teams is indeed a widespread practice in F1 (yes, McL too). So I am really amazed at the display of shock and personal attacks that FA and PDLR get, as if they were the only two sinners in a world of perfect integrity...
I have read the two (and only two, as far as I know?) mails between PDLR and FA that were made public:
- in one of them, FA asks about the accuracy of a certain info on Ferrari, and he is then told that McL uses to get information from Ferrari through the relationship between the two employees that finally were caught exchanging a whole manual, and not just the occasional "Kimi will pit on lap xx" comment.
- in the other one, there is a generic conversation as to whether Ferrari uses a specific gas for their tires. "It could be important". According to PDLR, he asked Bridgestone directly about that possibility, got a denial and did not go any further.
In the world of F1, those two mails cannot really be considered that shocking, can they? Am I right in thinking that if there had not been a 780-pages book involved, McL would not have been subject to such a heavy fine?
Also, it is my understanding that no external party ever searched the McL computer system, is this correct? Because if so, we cannot say that those were the only two mails exchanged, but just the only two mails handed in by McL's employees, which is quite different.
Finally, one more question: is it true, as I have read in another blog (but Ed, I promise that it was just a one-off visit!), that Ferrari produced a letter by KR where he stated that when he was at McL they used to listen to the Ferarri team radio "with an intent"?
Thanks in advance for any answers to my questions, and regards.

[MDA]

@Derek Smith:

"I don't like cheats. I'm all for a bit of rule bending and pushing the barriers but what Alonso and Pedro de la Rosa did was to betray the trust of their team in the most selfish manner. This wasn't a case of infiltrating the other team's pits and taking a few piccies, this was sytemised cheating over an extended period of time."
Systemised cheating over a long period of time by PDRL and FA? And your only proof is the two emails that they handed in? (please see my previous comment on the contents of such emails) Could you please explain how do you reach such conclusion?

[Richard]

@17 points...

I don't really understand what you're going on about, except in your last sentence. I didn't say Ron Dennis has been successful because he's a self made man, I said it because of the success he's achieved in the sport i.e. his results - he's been at the sharp end fighting for titles for most of the last 25 years

[F1-Insider]

Derek Smith

No truer a word has been spoken. Anyone who has followed F1 for some time (50 years in my case) would have no doubt that Ron Dennis is a man of honour and integrity and is a real racer at heart. There are few that know him that will say otherwise.

The real reason behind it all will come out in the book one day but what is certain is if the FI were governed properly (with rules of the same) and fairly a 100 million dollar fine would not have been imposed or if it had McLaren would have appealed without the real fear of being put out of business (as they were)!

[Richard]

@Person who leaves no name - 'The difference with Renault is that they didn't try to cover it up as McLaren did'.

Try reading this:

"McLaren unearthed the alleged espionage while conducting an investigation of their own procedures during the case brought against them by Ferrari. The team were tipped off by a member of staff who had recently joined from Renault, who told of a weighty package of information running to multiple CDs that was passed to engineers at the French squad"

Renault had McLaren information for over 12 months. Yes, Renault were oh so transparent - ONCE McLAREN HAD FOUND OUT WHAT THEY WERE UP TO AND REPORTED IT TO THE FIA!

The point I made earlier is further reinforced by this. Renault had McLaren information for longer than McLaren had Ferrari data, yet Ron Dennis is criticised for being the worst manager ever for not realising it whilst Renault are defended. More hypocrisy.

[Pinaster]

Derek:
Do you really believe your words, or do you really believe youre talking to adolescents?
FA didnt bring to Mcl nothing more than loads of money. And if Mcl didnt get more money and prestige fron FA, you can blame RD for mismanaging his company and employees.
What do you think Mcl and RD are? Mother Teresa`s society branch?
Dear God...

[Richard]

@Typical Spanish Fan - I'd change my name if I were you, genuine Spanish fans might object to your ridiculously biased views and claim they are anything but typical.

'"Alonso was found to have cheated last year"

No, he wasn't, McLaren was. ¿Who got fined?

Please read the following:

"In a 16-page document, the FIA said e-mails showed that test driver De la Rosa and reigning world champion Alonso had been aware of the Ferrari data.
"The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via Mike Coughlan.
"Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from Nigel Stepney," the report states.

So, Alonso wasn't found to be cheating then? And you're arguing with the official statements from the FIA now?

And your statement about Renault:

'They reacted fast, closing the files and warning McL and FIA, Learn from them!'

I think my last post adequately covers this baloney as well! Yes, they reacted very fast once McLaren reported them to the FIA - big deal. They had the data between September 2006 and October 2007. Yes, we should all learn such a lot here - like how to avoid a $100m fine for committing the same offence as McLaren

[Alonso fan]

Derek:
All your comment is ****! Even you can't believe that. If so, you also should believe in St.Klaus...

How can 2 pilots use information about a car design?. That's information for engineers!!!!!

The whole SAINT McLaren, RD included, was found CHEATING, and was FINED.

I can't call RD a loser since he has 100x my money, xD, but he is not a winner.

NOTE: reRead your own post Derek, is hilarous, you are so innocent.

And please, PLEASE, link a video where Max Mosley say that phrase taked from a dream of yours...

[Richard]

@Man from photo...'There is some people talking here about the Renault affair and comparing it to the McLaren’s affair. Please, could you explain to me what is the similitude between those two affairs, how can they be compared'

I think most normal people fail to see how they cannot be compared. This is how the BBC reported it:

"An FIA statement said Renault were accused of "unauthorised possession" between September 2006 and October 2007 "of documents and confidential information belonging to McLaren".
That, it added, included "but [was] not limited to, the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, together with details of the McLaren fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars."
The charges levelled against Renault - the first hints of which emerged in September around the time of McLaren's punishment - are remarkably similar to those McLaren faced.
FIA president Max Mosley said at the time that the accusations against Renault revolved around an employee who had left McLaren to join Renault and taken the information with him."

It was only when McLaren reported it that Renault admitted to it. Regarding the accusations levelled at each team (and the charge that McLaren were finally found guilty of), please be so kind as to tell us all what the difference is.

[MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP]

F1-INSIDER wrote:

"Derek Smith

No truer a word has been spoken. Anyone who has followed F1 for some time (50 years in my case) would have no doubt that Ron Dennis is a man of honour and integrity and is a real racer at heart. There are few that know him that will say otherwise.

The real reason behind it all will come out in the book one day but what is certain is if the FI were governed properly (with rules of the same) and fairly a 100 million dollar fine would not have been imposed or if it had McLaren would have appealed without the real fear of being put out of business (as they were)!"

Could you explain to us the following:

http://www.sportspromedia.com/bishop.htm

(or shall we believe that Ron Dennis and McLaren are honourable?) - I wonder who's behind MM's case, I wonder...

F1-Insider showing his real colours, I must say.

[Richard]

@Man who chooses not to tell us all his name - 'I don't know why you and a couple of bloggers keep insisting of his innocence. The difference with Renault is that they didn't try to cover it up as McLaren did. If you cannot discern this fundamental difference I suggest you chat with a lawyer'

Firstly, please tell me where I've insisted on his innocence. All I've said is that there was no evidence that RD knew any cheating was going on. If you have some evidence, please tell us all, otherwise please shut up.

Secondly, as I've stated elsewhere, Renault only came clean once McLaren reported them to the FIA. How do we know how long they knew what had been happening, after all they had McLaren data between Sept 2006 and Oct 2007? This was far longer than McLaren were supposed to have been using Ferrari data. And it's not like their team boss hasn't got previous form (remember Benetton 94?)

Thirdly, it is you who cannot discern fundamental differences, or, rather, similarities. Renault were charged with the same offence as McLaren were, and it was not a charge of 'covering up'. If I'd need to chat with a lawyer, I'd first read up on the charges and discuss what's relevant, and not waste my time defending charges that haven't been made.

Before continuing to spread your poison, perhaps you should read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7006365.stm

And this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7085098.stm

[carmen]

Derek

About the triangle Hamilton-Alonso-Dennis.
It's not only about nationality, is about a boy who has grown up as a driver in Ron's team. It's so difficult to understand that having known Lewis for many years and having sponsored his career, Dennis would show a certain preference for him, and have a special interest in Lewis' success.

[carmen]

of course nobody in the team knew about the spygate affair. Only Alonso and De la Rosa. Alonso used all his ability as set up driver together with de la Rosa to work over night and hiding from all in the team to manufacture a new car with all the information taken from Ferrari. Dennis knew nothing, nor did the mechanics and engineers, nor Hamilton (he was too engaged with the Play station).
Of course Ron Dennis is very generous, he allowed de la Rosa to continue working for the team. Alonso also blackmailed Ron, that's why he continued having a car to drive after Hungary till the end of the championship. Could you imagine any other company boss acting that way? Would any serious boss permit them to work in his company, after all the problems and disrepute? You must be joking.
Come on, things are not so white or black. There is much manipulation and many hidden interests.

[Verbal]

@MDA - there were more than two emails between Alonso and de la rosa, there were also other emails from the two drivers to and fro enginers.
A third party did inspect mclarens computers but after some time and what they did prove was that
a) the initial inspection by mclarens experts had not been thorough and
b)Information/evidence on computers can be permanently destroyed, banks do it all the time.
While the dossier was the tip that gave away the ice-berg, it was not the reason Macca were fined, at the first hearing everyone new Macca had the dossier but they were not fined until after the 2nd hearing which revealed systematic spying.
Kimi did give a writen statment to the effect when he was at Mclaren, the team would routinly eavesdrope on rivals, needless to say when questioned Ron would not deny.
Finaly MDA, I did read the "I spy" artcle when it came out, and it is true all teams look at each others, monitor the cars pitting and refuelling BUT there is a difference between observing and activly seeking your rivals secret interlectual property.
many here will say otherwise but Mclarens December letter to the FIA, falls short of admitting the "allegations", I say read it from the FIA website and draw your own conclusion

[Derek Smith]

MDA,

In answer to both your recent posts:

Rather than go through the whole of the report of the FIA, I’ll say that the first email referred to in paragraph 3 of the report which concerns the weight distribution and the gas is on 21 March 2007 the last is on 14 April 2007, although the latter includes bits about the braking system of the Ferrari which is quite basic and McLaren were already were working on a similar system.

That’s three whole weeks.

My point, which I accept was probably badly worded, was that this wasn’t a reaction to an accident on circuit which revealed a hitherto unknown detail of a competitor’s car, nor was it a casual look into the cockpit of a car on the hardstanding. This was deliberate and over an extended length of time. The mind, as they say in law, went with the act.

There was ample time to come to one’s senses. Giving in to temptation on the spur of the moment is one thing. Ringing up Coughlan and demanding info is another, as is saying ‘we must have it’ to a team mate.

Further, about the full investigation into McLaren: 1.4 terrabytes of information, that’s equivalent to 4 million A4 pages of closely spaced type, were sorted through, plus 22 computers were removed and their hard drives examined and around a dozen McLaren employees were interviewed. (Stats from memory.) This massive investigation discovered nothing that was put before the hearing other than the statements made by the employees, and even then there was no evidence to support that McLaren International as a company had any knowledge of the info coming from Ferrari. The FIA agreed – not that it had any option – that McLaren cooperated fully with the enquiry.

That’s nothing, zero, zilch from all that info.

I’ve been involved in such in-depth enquiries and I can say that if there was the thorough investigation that MRM says there was and they found nothing then there was nothing to find.

So what seems clear from the FIA’s own enquiry is that corporate McLaren International did not have sight of the info that was going backwards and forwards between Coughlan and the drivers.

A small point: some say that LH did not cooperate with the enquiry. He did cooperate fully. What he did not do was to declare any incriminating emails and, despite looking, there was no evidence with regards phone calls or emails to link him with Coughlan or any dishonest behaviour.

The 780pp document was a separate matter and one which was resolved at the earlier hearing. What was clear at that time – and has not been overturned – is that the document was in Coughaln’s possession for his own purposes. I.e. he was acting independently of his role in McLaren. Indeed it has been reported that the document was taken to teams in the pitlane, not including McLaren, as a sweetener for employing Coughlan and another.

I’m not saying RD is as pure as the driven. What I am saying is that he is not dishonest. The FIA’s enquiry showed neither RD nor McLaren International to be dishonest. McLaren can probably (I could put it stronger) be found guilty of lack of supervision of staff, especially Coughlan. However, Ferrari committed the same offence, if it is indeed an offence, and were more culpable to my way of thinking as they already had doubts about Stepney whereas McLaren were confident (although in error I accept) of the honesty of Coughlan, Alonso and dlRosa.

As I say, I do not like dishonesty. However, there is no evidence to suggest that the dishonesty went beyond certain named individuals. Anyone can have their own doubts, of course, and indeed MRM suggested that he did at the hearing, although this appeared to be retracted later. But given RD’s history, I feel that one should give him the benefit of any doubt.

I was really upset by Tyrell’s use of additives to their fuel. I was, and remain, a big fan of Ken’s. His days with Stewart were thrilling. But I do not deny that the man cheated. The evidence seemed clear enough. I felt he let me down but it was the act of a desperate man who considered the rules were being manipulated against him. But I agree he cheated.

Give me evidence that RD was dishonest and I will, albeit very reluctantly, accept it. But that, I’m pleased to say, has not happened yet.

[Richard]

@Typical Spanish Fan and person with no name:

Regarding Renault's spying affair, you said 'They reacted fast, closing the files and warning McL and FIA, Learn from them!'

And: 'The difference with Renault is that they didn't try to cover it up as McLaren did'

Firstly, it's worth reminding you that Renault were in fact found GUILTY of possessing confidential McLaren information, just the same as McLaren were with Ferrari data.

In their full verdict on the Renault case, some very interesting information came to light:

"8.10. However, the WMSC notes with strong disapproval the fact that there were individuals of sufficient seniority within Renault who should have known that the drawings that Mackereth showed them contained proprietary confidential information. This organisational failing meant that they did not report the matter to their line managers as they should have done. Had they done so, the matter may have been brought to the FIA’s attention at a far earlier stage."

Perhaps you two would care to withdraw your comments about Renault's fast reactions and transparency?

8.7...."(a drawing of McLaren’s so-called ‘J-damper’) was used by Renault in that Renault admits taking it into account in preparing a request to the FIA for a clarification of whether a particular hypothetical system was within the rules (rather than for the purposes of copying it). The fact that Renault fundamentally misunderstood the operation of the system suggests that the ‘J-damper’ drawing did not reveal to Renault enough about the system for the Championship to have been affected."

And the final verdict:

11.1.1. finds Renault in breach of Article 151(c) of the International Sporting Code,

11.1.2. imposes no penalty due to the lack of evidence that the Championship has been affected.

So, Renault can do exactly the same as McLaren but because the FIA say the championship hasn't been affected there is no punishment. And it's OK to have the intent of affecting the championship, as long as you don't succeed - what a nonsense.

The FIA didn't even attempt to give this charade any credibility by giving even a small punishment to Renault. And what evidence was there that McLaren's actions affected the championship? Was it really that much different to Renault that it deserved a $100m fine and the loss of all constructor's points compared to no punishment at all for Renault? Folks, if this whole affair doesn't seem highly suspicious to you, you're either blinded by your prejudice/hatred or you're very naive.

[Pau]

I am sure Alonso is not very impressed by this award. As he once said, he wants to be WC. Leave the other awards, like MTV awards, for Hamilton.

To Richard: please read Whitmarsh's letter acknowledging the "mistakes" by McLaren. He apologised to a lot of people and implied many at McLaren knew about the spying going on. If you want to keep believing that Alonso and De La Rosa where the only ones in the spy scandal, then you need to have your head examined.

Looking forward to the Alonso-Hamilton accident in Magny Cours. Lewis' fault, of course.

[Pau]

To all the Alonso haters.

Did he bring the 780-page Ferrari manual to the copying store?

Why was he given the wrong tyres in the qualifying session in Hungary, which triggered him staying 20 additional seconds in the pit lane, while asking his engineers why was he getting used tyres? Did these mistakes use to happen in a perfectly organized team as McLaren?

Why was Lewis not punished after not following agreed-upon rules (THAT IS, NOT TEAM ORDERS, BUT RULES) like lowering RPMs to secure 1/2 in Monaco, and respecting the qualifying order in Hungary?

Still Lewis lost his championship when all he had to do was finish fourth in a car that could, at worst, finish fourth in China and Brazil. Still laughing so hard about that!

[Nath]

Who cares about RD? Let the drivers speak on the races.

Some food for thought:

What do you think LH would have achieved in a team like, lets say Renault i.e.?

[D]

^
Interesting comments.

As I said in the main thread, I felt this was a very different question to what we were asked in the All-Time Greatest.

In the latter, we were concerned with assessing drivers upon the merits of their entire careers: their rise, their prime, their conclusion. Completed careers, set against each other for comparison.

This latest exercise I saw as something in complete contrast. Rightly or wrongly, I felt we were being asked to look at the situation that exists in the month of June 2008 and say, "Ignore careers; ignore who's done what so far, ignore who's on the way up and ignore who's on the way down. Ignore who was the best three months ago, ignore who will be the best in three months time. As we stand here in the week before the French GP of 2008, in what order do we rate the guys who will be on that grid, for that race? That race, viewed in isolation. Today. Without looking back and without looking forward."

It was, and remains, my personal view that that was the only correct way to answer the question posed to us by Anon and I made my listing on that basis.

We are in the month of June. Had I been asked that same question in January of this year, my listing would have been slightly different. If I am asked the same question again in December, life will have moved on, the kaleidoscope will have turned and I would expect my listing to be slightly different again.

And that's the point I am trying to make.

Because when I was asked for the Greatest of All-Time last month, I found that I had no reason to alter the order in which I listed those whose careers were completed by 1965 from the order that they were in 40 years ago, after a very kind man named Denis Jenkinson indulged a young and admiring motor racing enthusiast over a long lunch at Spa and explained to me just what being a racing driver was really all about. (And, believe me, Denis Jenkinson knew!)

[Jaimie]

People have short such memories. Alonso is a double world champion but look at it this way. In 2005 the tyre rule changes completely ruled out Bridgestone and Ferrari and in 2006 Schumacher's blown engine in Japan is the only thing that gave the title to Alonso - because Alonso is in the record books as Champion for those 2 years doesnt tell the whole story. I cannot imagine any other "reigning" World Champion being beaten for speed by a rookie - not Senna, not Mansell, not Schumacher, not Hakkinen. It is almost unbeleivable when you think about it and everyone seems to have forgotten it becasue Alonso is racing against a real bunny in Piquet. How good is the Renault ? We dont know - in someone elses hands it could the equal of BMW.

[Alix]

This is why Alonso is my number 1.

I love this guy!

http://www.iht.com/multimedia/audio/2008/06/15/sports/alonsotechcenter.mp3

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

RICHARD

"There was no evidence that RD knew about what was going on..."

Perhaps google has failed you as Ron Dennis was aware of contact between Stepney and Coughlan, and also knew that his organisation presented information obtained from Stepney to the FIA!

Read the following article that Ed wrote if you are in any doubt.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2183421.ece

There are plenty more articles out there.

Given that McLaren was also asked to modify its design, along with Red Bull, Ron's comments really can't be viewed as anything other than self-righteous, self-aggrandising and extremely hypocritical.

If Ferrari won in Australia with an illegal competitive advantage, many would conclude that McLaren finished in second and third places with an illegal competitive advantage.

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

MDA

There is a report on www.fia.com released mid-December 2007 on the FIA's study of McLaren. I can't give you the link as the FIA site is down at the moment.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from it, but note that Senior McLaren engineers use terms such as 'mole' in correspondence.

Based on this report, Martin Whitmarsh was forced to write to the FIA an acknowledge that perhaps Ferrari data had been disseminated within McLaren to a greater extent than previously thought. The general press release that McLaren released at the time is no longer available on the McLaren website (Ed - do you have a copy of it, and if so could you please post it), but it made for interesting reading.

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

F1-INSIDER

"...Ron Dennis is a man of honour and integrity..."

...who is quite happy to employ Matt Bishop AFTER the bogus Renault dossier.

Will the story behind that be in the book as well?

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

DEREK SMITH

The Ferrari floor was as legal as the McLaren and Red Bull floor. The FIA made it very clear that the interpretation of the rule had been exploited, and that no rule had been broken by any of these teams.

If Ferrari, along with McLaren and Red Bull, cheated in Australia 2007 then it could be argued, for example, that McLaren cheated in 1997-8 (well before 2003!).

If Coughlan, Alonso and de la Rosa were cheating, then McLaren was implicitly cheating. Additionally, de la Rosa informed Alonso that information had been used in the simulator - would de la Rosa have control over the simulator, or would an engineer have input the data? If the latter is the case, then an engineer either wittingly, or unwittingly, cheated. Additionally, correspondence between senior engineers at McLaren included use of the term 'mole'.

I can think of many terms that could be applied to Stepney, but I am not certain that cheating is one of them.

I understand that you have met Ron Dennis on several occasions, and consider him to be an honest man. Perhaps this is the case. However, he really should have taken action when he first learned that Stepney and Coughlan were in contact with one another (re: floorboard), and there is no justification for his decision to continue to hire Matt Bishop.

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP

You said it all!

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

Can a RD/McLaren stalwart please offer his/her take on the Matt Bishop/Renault dossier affair?

[PHILOSOPHASTER]

STELMARA

Montoya was gutsy, but I wouldn't classify him as great - he certainly was not at the same level as M Schumacher, Alonso and Raikkonen. He ended up off the track as many times as he stayed on when he made his moves.

[Derek Smith]

Didier is best,

“When discussing the best driver, I think the only question you need to ask is, given the choice, who would you put in your own F1 car.”

That’s an excellent question.

I like Kubica. He shows character. Despite his dreadful start (and mid point) to last season he seemed to apply himself, sort out his problems and go for it. I only wished I had been sharp enough to recognise his potential then.

Massa has impressed me as well. Any number 2 in a Ferrari team has got to be suspect and he was up against Kimi, whom I used to think was class of the field but I’ve got my doubts at the moment. But Massa did what very few Fno2s have done and has shown the way to his team mate. And what a driver to do it against.

Further, I think both require minimal ‘managing’ on a personal level. Neither appear to be the type to nurse an imagined slight and after years of running various departments, I know my skills in this respect are very limited.

They’d make a nice pairing. I think if Kubica can keep up this application then he’s going to be one of the really goods. Greats I’m not so sure about. But very good. I still have my doubts about Massa’s ability to keep on the calm side of headbanging but my feeling is that if he manages to last the race he’ll be up there amongst cars that are faster than the one he’s in.

But as to whether it would be a winning team, well that’s up for argument. That said, Eddie Jordan seemed to be the one team manager who could relax and his team didn’t do that much. Apart from being there of course, and that would be enough for me. I’d like my team to run a party that spectators could attend after a GP.

I camped out at Donnington for three nights for a World Sports Car event and I was near the Mercedes enclave. After the race on Sunday we were invited in to their post-race celebrations (they beat the Jags and the Aston) and we had a great time. A lovely end to a fabulous weekends racing. Me and my friend went in wearing Jaguar caps and we got roundly cheered.

I agree to an extent with you about drivers becoming pilots. When strategy such as fuel load, when to have the softs on, how much fuel to put in mid race, pitting just before a safety car, can all affect the result fundamentally, it seems pointless starting the engines. But that said, skill will out in the end. But I think it takes longer nowadays.

But there has been too much fiddling with the rules. If you want more overtaking, it is ridiculous to have the cars do it in the pits. If they can get 1500bhp out of 1500cc then surely someone can come up with an idea that limits downforce or at least enables a car to get up close behind the one in front yet still be able to go around a corner. All my memories of great moments seem to revolve around overtakes. Still, as you get older, memory fades so it’s just as well there’s so few nowadays. I’ll never forget the roar of the crowd at Silverstone when Mansell took Piquet on the Hanger Straight. I couldn’t see it from where I was sitting but the noise left us in no doubt.

As to whether Lauda or Prost would do well in today's F1 scene, I’m of the opinion that they would be there or there abouts, especially now there’s no TC. No one could accuse Prost of being exciting to watch but he was a very complete driver, if one can modify ‘complete’. I would have liked to have seen Herbert, especially in his days with ankles, in today’s cars. I feel he would have enjoyed them.

Thanks for the nice words.

[Felipe]

And once again we fall back to the hate... a lot of views have some truth in them, but they are totally skewed by hatred and fanatism... Ed we need an entry on this weekends race...

[Alastair]

It's rather an irony that the driver many of you seem to think is F1's "greatest" is the only driver in the history of the sport to have colluded with his test driver to receive stolen information from another team, and then attempted to blackmail his own team boss with that information into giving him preferential treatment outside the boundaries of his contract.

[Richard]

@ Pau - 'If you want to keep believing that Alonso and De La Rosa where the only ones in the spy scandal, then you need to have your head examined'

Where exactly did I say that Alonso and de la Rosa were the only ones involved? Before you tell people they need their head examined, perhaps you should get your eyes examined.

[Phil H]

I think the dead horse has been flogged enough now, no?

Magny Cours thoughts anyone?

Lewis to run a light fuel load to get pole and minimise his 10 place penalty and then run a 3 stop strategy, diving up the inside of everyone at the Adelaide hairpin?

Renault to get Alonso a high grid position at their home Grand Prix? Ferrari domination? Another Kubica win?

[Richard]

@ Philosophaster - 'Perhaps google has failed you as Ron Dennis was aware of contact between Stepney and Coughlan'

I never claimed that Ron Dennis was unaware of contact between Stepney and Coughlan. I said that there was NO EVIDENCE that he was aware of was 'going on' i.e. that which was considered illegal by the FIA. I don't see that the link you posted shows anything different.

We could talk endlessly about McLaren's actions, but my point is simply that the McLaren/RD/LH haters are very quick to condemn McLaren for cheating but seem happy that other teams should get away with similar actions. I find this hypocritical.

Renault were found guilty of the same offence yet received no punishment at all. It seems that they were given the benefit of the doubt about whether the championship was affected whereas McLaren weren't. This is despite the fact that many would consider the FIA ought to give the benefit of the doubt to McLaren over Renault if you take the previous history of each team principal into consideration.

Toyota weren't even investigated! The FIA gave some lame excuse about this at the time, something like Ferrari never made an official complaint, therefore they could do nothing. What rubbish! Two employees received custodial sentences over this, and three of their most senior managers were on criminal charges relating to it for some time. Didn't the FIA think it might have been serious enough to investigate the matter, or is it outside the remit of the governing body to police these things (unless McLaren do it of course)? Mosley is famous for saying he didn't care how evidence was received in the McLaren case, but with Toyota, it seemed that he was happy to turn the other cheek. How convenient!

You should also remember that Briatore was calling for severe punishment against McLaren over the Stepney affair whilst the same thing was going on under his own nose at Renault at the time!

[IDR]

This thread was a good idea coming from Anon (The real one). We have used some time to build each one Top Five List, and we have enjoyed reading every comment.

Anon has done a great job, following each comment, and when the results are posted, the thread is full complete of hate and bitter.

Ed, please, should be quite useful if you open a new thread in which every person interested on continuing with the never-ending story about FA-LH-RD, can post there their comments living the rest of the threads clean of this.

You can update each month that thread just to be sure they can use it and never gets old.

May I suggest the Title? “The psychiatrist corner”

[Felipe]

Axil, thanks, really enjoyed the interview. Very natural and charming. I think he's a bit misunderstood.

[Alix]

He always is straight and sincere ...maybe too much for this hypocratic bussines.
Thanks to you Felipe!

[M.C.]

Didier
What a great idea!

I would have Hamilton and Kubica.
Oh boy that would be a great race

[Mark]

To people who belief that only Alonso and de La Rosa knew anything about the Ferrari info. have been proved wrong a couple of times. The FIA investigation (yes Ferrari conspiracy etc bla bla bla) have shown the information had reached quite a number of people, something McLaren them self have admitted. Besides that some people seem to be astonished by Alonso's betrail of Ron's trust, well if Ron felt that way why is De La Rosa still driving for him??? How can a test driver and a driver test things in the factory, like installing Ferrari data into the simulator(de La Rosa did) to see what can be gained, without some engineer asking a question... All of a sudden you have a couple of people with bright ideas and what not and Ron Dennis, a man who makes sure the exhaust of his cars are polished, has no questions?? Common logic dictates that he knew, the man is a known control freak. Engineers were trying things, as admitted by McLaren, that was directly copied from the Ferrari info. Added to that Ron Dennis was aware of a Ferrari leak, yet all of a sudden good ideas are popping up left right and center and he thinks "Well didn't De La Rosa do well at summer engineering school." Give me a break! Nobody beliefs that...

About the famous number one status. Recently Alonso, to the ITV I belief, explained the problem. He wanted to determine his own race strategy independent of Lew1s. Not a strange request from an experienced driver, especially not a double world champion. Yet, McLaren insisted on this one race Lew1s comes in a lap earlier and the next race you system... This year surprisingly its more like Lew1s gets all the shorter first stints... Weird, no?? Anyway given the experience from Alonso and the fact that his data was an important starting point I don't find it too strange that he would like to determine his own race strategy a bit instead of the useless artificial system they had last year.

Anyway all those believing in the complete nonsense of poor Ron Dennis being cheated by two Spanish employees don't really know all that much about Ron Dennis. The man did not rise to the top of F1 being an gullible idiot.

[Javier]

Jamie wrote:
People have short such memories. Alonso is a double world champion but look at it this way. In 2005 the tyre rule changes completely ruled out Bridgestone and Ferrari and in 2006 Schumacher's blown engine in Japan is the only thing that gave the title to Alonso - because Alonso is in the record books as Champion for those 2 years doesnt tell the whole story. I cannot imagine any other "reigning" World Champion being beaten for speed by a rookie - not Senna, not Mansell, not Schumacher, not Hakkinen. It is almost unbeleivable when you think about it and everyone seems to have forgotten it becasue Alonso is racing against a real bunny in Piquet. How good is the Renault ? We dont know - in someone elses hands it could the equal of BMW.
-----------------
Ok Jamie, I´d say that you have "selective memory".
Imola : Whose engine did fail? Yeees, Alonso´s one.
Hungary : Whose wheel did fail? Yees, Alonso´s one.

It is laughable to hear, read or see people talk about Suzuka. Schumacher had two mechanical problems, Suzuka and Interlagos. He lost 15 points (add 4 points as Alonso would have scored 14pts instead of 18)
Now add 6 points to Alonso (he was third when his engine failed in Imola), and 10 points in Hungary
(plus one as Schumacher would not have scored in Hungary)
Schumacher +19
Alonso +17
So Schumio lost just two more points than Alonso. The gap at the end was 13 points. Alonso would still be the champion...

[philosophaster]

RICHARD

Perhaphs you should have expressed yourself better. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Renaualt was not punished, just as McLaren was not initially punished.

Two former Ferrari employees took Ferrari software to Toyota and used this at Toyota. They were guilty of theft and using unlicensed software. There was no evidence to suggest that they were using Ferrari data to influence the design of the Toyota.

[Derek Smith]

Richard,

One point I'd like to take up with you if I may: you say that Renault were found guilty of the same offence. In point of fact, McLaren were not found guilty of having Ferrari information. It would appear that the only thing they were found guilty of is not knowing of their driver's and Coughlan's cheating.

Despite examining 22 computers, 1.5 terrabytes of info, and 8 interviews, no Ferrari information and no evidence to support any knowledge of it was found.

When the original enquiry into the possession of the 780pp document found no reason for any penalty, McLaren said that they had no information about any other confidential documents or statistics. MRM said that if what they were saying was a lie then they would be punished severely. When RD informed MRM of the emails that was, according to everyone, the first he knew of them. The punishment metered out to McLaren would appear to be solely for not examining the phone records of its two drivers. The only apology McLaren made in the letter to the FIA was that:

"We apologise unreservedly if our prior ignorance of some of these facts has misled the World Motor Sport Council and we can only assure you all that this was never our intention.

"We must nonetheless accept that our own investigations into this matter were insufficient, although we would ask you to have regard to the fact that such investigations were conducted during a highly intense racing season and under significant time pressure. As a result, our investigations focused most strongly on satisfying ourselves that no Ferrari confidential information had been used directly or indirectly on the 2007 and 2008 cars."

Or to put is in other words, McLaren's original enquiry was to support their contention at the earlier hearing that no Ferrari information had been used in their cars. Which is, one would have thought, what they should have done. They do, quite clearly say, that they were entirely ignorant of the additional information at the time of the first hearing.

The rest of the letter contains what are virtual rejections of every finding of the 'court'. As this wasn't challenged by MRM one must consider it probable that he felt what they said was correct.

I agree with everything else you said, Richard.

[MDA]

@Verbal, Derek Smith, Philosophaster:
Thank you very much for taking the time to read and answer my post, and thanks also to those of you who have provided further info on the questions. Philosophaster, yes, it would be great if you (or anyone else who has it) could provide me with the link that you mentioned. I confess that I am intrigued about the details around the whole spying/FIA investigation and the incidents at Hungaroing, seeing how they have had a major impact in the public image of McL, RD, FA and LH, and how differently people understand and value them.
Yes, I confess that I am a latecomer to the discussion (at the time all these things were happening last year I was snowed under with work, so I did not really pay that much attention to details) and I understand that for some bloggers this flogged horse is very dead indeed. And maybe I have some psychological problems, as others have not too kindly suggested, but I do hope that nobody was offended (just bored and uninterested) by either the tone of my emails or my curiosity.
In any case, I am very happy to be directed to a different thread for this type of discussion (if Ed approves it). I would even suggest that, instead of creating a new one, we could use the original "I spy". Funnily enough, I realised that it did not get any comments when it was originally posted - can you believe it! So if Ed thinks that it is a good idea, and we can still post under that thread, I am happy to obligue.
Best regards - MDA

[Richard]

@Philosophaster - 'They were guilty of theft and using unlicensed software. There was no evidence to suggest that they were using Ferrari data to influence the design of the Toyota.'

According to Autosport:

"Iacconi was found guilty of misappropriation of a CD-ROM with data, files and technical drawings, used in 2002 and 2003 to develop race cars while working for Toyota"

This has come from a criminal investigation and not from the FIA, so I expect it to be more impartial. No evidence at all came from the FIA because they didn't feel it was necessary to look into the matter, despite the nature of the criminal charges brought.

Just as in the case with Renault (Benetton), the boss at Toyota also had previous form with the FIA. The late Ove Andersson was in charge of the Toyota rally team when they were found to be using illegal turbos and were banned for the entire following season. Yet both Toyota and Renault were seemingly given the benefit of the doubt whilst McLaren were handed the biggest punishment know to man!

Can you really not see the inconsistencies here, or am I wasting my time because you will refuse to see the obvious no matter what is put in front of you?

[Augusto Baena]

Nath: "What do you think LH would have achieved in a team like, lets say Renault i.e.?"

My opinion:
He would have probably fared similarly to the best drivers in his generation (perhaps better): Kovalainen,

Kubica, Rosberg, etc

BUT (big BUT)

Today, Lewis is clearly above his "peers" because:
- you learn to be a champion in a top-team. In a lesser team you learn some techniques, set-up,

survive, ... but the difference between McL-Ferr and the rest is clear. Is like working for a

large Corporation vs the shop-round-the-corner. This is something Lewis is getting and, say,

Nico Rosberg or Sebastian Vettel aren't
- the pressure is much larger for a top-team driver. We marvel if Vettel or Rosberg score or

fare well, and we accept that they will more often than not have a crap weekend. We look more

the (scarce) achievements than their (frequent) failures. However, for a top-team driver, he must

deliver _every_ weekend. There are no bad days, no set-up glitches, no driving mistakes, no

preferred vs disliked tracks... a midfielder spins or doesn't make it to Q3 and no problem,

let's try harder next race, but Lewis needs to have close-to-perfect weekends every race. And

that is something only himself (of his generation) is learning at the moment. Not even Kubica

is under that pressure.

That is one of the reasons Lewis is performing -relatively- worse this year (the other is a

well-known statistical effect on the second season of "rookie-of-the-year" called regression).

Last season, Lewis had a "mid-field" mentality: winning is great, losing is understandable.

This season, he has a title-contender mentality: winning is good, podium is mandatory. Fernando had

that mentality the first half of last season (when he performed worse than Lewis). When

Fernando understood he wouldn't ever be champion in McLaren's hostile atmosphere, he shed-off

the pressure and outperformed Lewis (who, at that time, had the pressure to become champion

himself).

- After Hungary, championship standings were: Hamilton: 80p, Alonso: 73p, Raikkonen: 60p,

Massa: 59p
- Since Hungary, the standings would have been: 1st Raikkonen: 50p; 2nd Alonso: 36p; 3rd Massa:

35p and 4th Hamilton: 29p.

Hamilton was clearly the worst (of the top-4) since, after the Hungary affair -effectively

dismissing Alonso-, he was given all the pressure to lead the best car to achieve the driver's

championship... and he just couldn't cope with it.

So Lewis is getting an experience (to lead a top-team) his "peers" are not getting and hence he

is, today, in my opinion, the best driver of his generation.

Regards

Augusto Baena

[MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP]

Richard, on the 17 June, at 20:35, wrote (when comparing Renault/McLaren spy cases):

"I think most normal people fail to see how they cannot be compared. This is how the BBC reported it:"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7085098.stm

Richard, are you joking? The BBC report is dated 8 November 2007, 13:15.

Move on Richard, move on! The truth came to light a bit later:

http://www.sportspromedia.com/bishop.htm

Now, have a good reading as I think you obviously did not know or choose to ignore it! Which one is it?

I consider myself to be normal people and definitely cannot see anything in common. Do you really?

Any normal people out there?

Best wishes

MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP

[Verbal]

Derek Smith - you and one or two others keep repeating that no evindence was found that anyone else besides the two drivers was involved ..
first of all, the lack of evidence is no proof of innocence
also have you not seen the emails from senior engineers requesting details of "the red car" and refering to "the mole" ?
Thirdly I ask you again what use is engineering information to a driver (simulaters were configured, parts were manufactured, gasses were puchased and tested, brake materials, car balance) all this just between Alonso and De La Rosa ?...wise up!
fouth but certainly not least, the article (151c if i recall correctly) which Mclaren were found in breach of does NOT state or require the information to have been used or diserminated neither does it say senior management have to be involved, proof of possesion is enough and illegal under this article.
And for clarity Mclaren WERE found GUILTY at the first hearing, they were simply not penalised until the 2nd hearing

[MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP]

Richard also wrote (18 June 2008, 10:30:24)- in his answer to Philosophaster

"You should also remember that Briatore was calling for severe punishment against McLaren over the Stepney affair whilst the same thing was going on under his own nose at Renault at the time!"

Just to repeat what I wrote in my previous post!

Either you are not up-to-date (or you are refusing to see the obvious no matter what is put in front of you)

Best wishes

MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP

PS: who do you think is behind Mosley's case? It's becoming clear, isn't it? Sure, there is no evidence ...yet!

[Oliver]

In my opinion, Felipe Massa doesn't deserve that fifth place... Anyway, I might be wrong.

[Didier Is Best (DIB)]

I thought this blog was about the best drivers in f1!

Derek, thanks for the reply. I agree Kubica has demonstrated he is both quick and reliable under pressure, thus far. Massa I beleive has always been a little underated. I'm not convinced he has total self belief and that might be his nemesis.

I, like you, don't like cheats and this should have a bearing on ones view of a driver. I'm not as informed on the detail of the Alonso saga as some here, and I'm no great fan of his, but I'm prepared to give him a little rope as I'm sure all drivers and teams try their upmost to gain that fraction in the setup. That's part of the problem here, I believe.
I've followed f1 since 1978, my first hero was the great Ronnie Peterson, too soon forgotten. Blindingly fast, had all the flair and was so nice and modest with it... and a team player who stuck to a contract despite being the equal of his team leader.

In those days, drivers' were happy to qualify in lower grid positions, sacrificing ultimate qualifying speed for the best set up for the race, happy in the knowledge that over 2 hours thay could make up the places. That's what I'd like to see return today.

What really frustrates me is all this nonsense about graining of the tyres, lost heat and pressure in the damn tyres when following pace cars etc etc. Now that's boring, unless you are approaching f1 as an engineering project.

Sorry to go on for so long. To answer my own question, currently I think Alonso is the best driver on the grid. Perhaps he has made more mistakes than one would associate with a top driver, but I feel this is more down to his agressive attitude brought on through wrestling a relatively uncompetitive car higher than it ought to be.

This reminds me of my last great hero Nelson Piquet (snr)(you can guess who my 2nd hero was) in 1980 Austrian gp in the little Brabham. Amazing. Definately the best driver between 1980-85 (had to get that in)and, yes I was there in 1987 when that man Mansell had the good fortune to have a wheel bearing failure early on at Silverstone!! I did take some stick that day from the fans around me with my Nelson Piquet flag. Good Times.

[Kohque]

@ MAN FROM THE PHOTOCOPY SHOP,

Big thanks for the link! A real treat. And if you go down in the main page of the magazine, you will find something real juicy:

http://www.sportspromedia.com/mosley.htm

A sticked carrot:
"No right thinking fair-minded person could not believe McLaren and its top executives were guilty of the crimes they were accused of committing. The evidence was overwhelming and McLaren was given the benefit of any doubt there was. For once Mosley played it fair and straight."

The most important part, however, is about Mosley and Bernie's "honourable ways".

Sancho, where are thou?

[Derek Smith]

Dib,

Thanks for reminding us of the Great Ronnie Peterson.

Here's an idea, ED. How about which two drivers you would pick for your team out of all you've seen if your sponsors weren't that worried about winning.

Ronnie would have to be one of the favourites. He always came over as such a nice chap.

And what a time to start watching F1, with the two Lotus 79 drivers. That was a fabulous car.

Another idea Ed. Which car would you pick.

After hearing about the crash (I was working that day) I came home only to be told by my wife - another ardent F1 fan - that he was is hospital but seemingly ok. Broken legs and some more than minor but not serious burns. Then to hear on the radio in the moring that he'd died just seemed too cruel.

I'd have him in my team.

[Kohque]

If you are still not sure about the accuracy of the previous link, have a look an article by Richard Williams:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jun/05/motorsports

[Anon]

Well, I'm lucky to have gotten my hands on a computer! It's unexpected.

First off, I would like to heartily thank the people who thanked me, I really enjoyed your feedback and it was real fun.

Now that people have gone down with this spy affair again...

We can fight forever about it.

The thing is about these stories is that either position is hard to believe. It is hard to believe that Ron Dennis, the control freak, had no idea about the spying affair going between his engineer and hsi drivers. Do you really think that poor Ron would never cheat, never do anything dishonest Now, you could also think Ron Dennis lies (like I do, judging his gazillion (and still counting!) comments tat he does driver equality and then "We were racing Fernando" comes out) and you could think he was involved. This is what I believe.

Renault denounced themselves quite clearly. If you trust David Croft:

"Renault's actions in admitting the offence also counted in their favour."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7129049.stm

McLaren cheated! Do you really believe that they weren't cheating?
The most hilarious thing about PDLR and FA cheating, is that they had to have the engineering corp know about it, or else anything they learned about Ferrari would never have been used! It's not like they were going to stay up all night and fix their cars themselves! And with the engineering corp knowing as well as the drivers, do you thik RD and LH would never have known?

Also, in anything regarding strategy about Ferrari, they would have to have RD in the loop.

Renault were different. Renault denounced themselves to both the FIA and McLaren. McLaren then brought the complaint up. Renault did everything they could to clear their name- look at their car, do you honestly think that is McLaren stuff? If it is, serves them well! Oh, and I bet Fernando's fourth place in Australia is due to him being so used to the Renault, because it's a McLaren disguised in yellow! haha!

Heehee. I'm having a jolly good time here. Really, these spying affairs make me sick, almost just as much as Mosley. The only cool thing about them is that the McLaren-Ferrari one was adding tension between the championship contenders.

No, this is not what F1 is about. I talk about it because I disagreee whole-heartedly (but respectfully) with people like Richard.

For me F1 is waking at 4:30 int he morning and wondering why on earth my cell phone is ringing.

And then I realize: "MONACO GP!" And rushedly lift myself up and spill across into the room across the hallway, the guestroom. I then painfully put myself in a chair wishing it was a bed and struggle to keep my eyes open. And then the TV comes on. The suspense of qualifying, wondering whether Fernando can get into Q3 or if Felipe or Lewis will get pole position. Or it's a race, and I bring me face close to the screen to be able to identify the cars as they whizz around at the start...

That is racing. The little affairs of Mr. Briatore and Mr. Dennis and Mr. Ecclestone and Mr. Mosley are not racing. They are not politics either. They are a lesser form of politicians, "politicards" as we would say in Frnehc. THey are roughly the equivalent of schoolboys fighting in the playground over marbles. And if you enjoy that, great. Just want to remind you can get more out of F1 that incomprehensible FIA reports,contradictory news sources, and trash.

Regards to all of you, and bursting of excitement for French GP! It's promising to be exciting considering how one of the top drivers is already out of contention for podium (almost): can Red Bull, Williams, Toyota, or Fernando grab podium or at least a solid batch of points? Is David's podium in Canada a harbinger of more good results, or was it a fluke? Will Lewis control himself and learn hwo to race from the back, as he failed to in Bahrain, Brazil, and the Nurburgring? Will Kimi end his two-race streak with no points with a win? Will BMW do what lewis did iafter Canada last year: win two races straight?
Will Timo master Jarno? Will Heikki stop his points drought (one point in four races!!!!) and be allowed to be on equal treatment with Lewis? Sorry, but I believe that the team are biased against him. I think he should get top-driver status just for this race- I want him to win!!!

These are the questions I am asking myself. I'll let you guys to enjoy the playground.

Regards to all, and again, thank for the thank yous!

[Richard]

@Man from photo....

The Sportsmedia article is specifically about Matt Bishop's press release, whereas the BBC report is specifically about the Renault spying case. I don't see how the two conflict, and I don't see how anything in the Sportsmedia article diminishes anything in the BBC one. The only quotes in the BBC report are directly from the FIA and from Renault, and as far as I can tell, none of this information has changed. If it has, please show me. On second thoughts, don't bother, I'd rather talk about 2008.

Absolutely nothing is becoming clear about the Mosley case, there would have been a long queue of people happy to see him embarrassed in this way. Until you have some concrete evidence regarding who was behind it, you ought to keep your "normal" conspiracy theories to yourself.

Regarding your comment:

"I consider myself to be normal people and definitely cannot see anything in common. Do you really? Any normal people out there?"

No, there are no normal people out there, you're the only normal one, it's everybody else that's weird!

[Augusto Baena]

Derek,

I also proposed some additional "top-10 ever" surveys: top-10 cars (beauty, including imaginery, etc), top-10 cars (performance) and top-10 technological breakthroughs.

I also proposed top-10 personalities excluding drivers, and top-10 tracks (all-time)

Regards

Augusto

[IDR]

TOP TEN CARS ALL TIMES (beauty, technique, performance, stranger design...)

GREAT IDEA!

I would like too.

[Matt Black]

POSTED BY: JAVIERVIVAESPANIA
We all Spaniards are happy with the result. It also proved that all F1 lovers who are not unbiased by British nationalistic feelings also vote for our Champion.
I do not see why De la Rosa was not included in the list. Being a test driver is being also a part of the team and the job of De la Rosa is huge. He is the only one now in McLaren who knows how to set up a car and I know that Hamilton and Kovalainen rely heavily on him.

Well, well, well. What a surprise! So you're happy that this poll proved that all F1 lovers who are not unbiased by British nationalistic feelings also vote for 'your' Champion? This poll also proved that Spanish 'F1 lovers' most definitely are biased by nationalistic feelings. Any Spaniard vote Hamilton as No.1… or indeed above Alonso? Thought not.

Also the rest of your post is hugely ridiculous and proves you know very little of F1! Before Alonso, you probably knew nothing. Since Alonso you and most of Spain suddenly claim to be F1 fans. If McLaren had a Spanish truck driver you'd vote him higher than Hamilton.

[Richard]

@ Anon - 'No, this is not what F1 is about. I talk about it because I disagreee whole-heartedly (but respectfully) with people like Richard.'

Funnily enough, I don't want to talk about more of this stuff any more than you do, I only do it when I see something outrageous that begs to be challenged.

I've said many times recently that we need to move on from 2007, but the McLaren/Hamilton haters and some Alonso fanatics just won't let that happen. Perhaps you should direct your comments more to those people?

As you're clearly a genuine F1 fan, please try to resist the temptation to post comments about last year, and I'll do the same. We can then look forward to having some lively debates about this year instead!