Mosley wins the day

So, Max Mosley is to remain in office as FIA president after winning a vote of confidence with a clear majority at the extraordinary meeting in Paris today.

Is it possible for Mosley to continue as president in any credible way and leave the high-profile duties to his deputies? Could this victory for the governing body's disgraced leader precipitate a crisis in relations with Formula One? We know that the majority of teams, sponsors and venue hosts do not want to do business with him.

Ed will be updating his blog shortly but, until then, here's a clue to his thoughts taken from yesterday's blog post.

"In my view any decision which leaves Mosley in office is a bad one because it has already been established that he cannot do his job any longer, especially the most public elements, while his decision not to resign has opened raw wounds within his own organisation and outside it. Staying on is now a certain recipe for continued paralysis, not to say strife."

Have your say below.

Comments

[Dean Rodrigues]

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE JOKING. That is all.

[colin grayson]

as previously stated , makes no difference in my view , he will sit in the background and hopefully work on the rules and regulations bit while the other suits play politics looking to get the job next year

frankly , the team owners will be quite happy to do business with him in the meantime ....as long as they are not seen to do so

now , who will take over next year ?
am sure Betfair will start a book ...the last 2 have been european ....time for a change ?

[Lucy]

Unbelieveable, are these people spineless or brainless?

[Ray]

It's enough to make anyone sick to their stomach. One has to wonder what the fans think of the FIA members now. A squad of nodding donkeys indeed.

[colin grayson]

here's a thought ; how about a new president and a change of name

it's current name is in french with 2 official languages [ english / french ]...for younger readers french used to be an international language
so , how about changing to reflect modern realities
International Automobile Federation [ or Association ] with english and spanish ?
in case you think that is bias , I hardly speak spanish but speak english/french

[D]

^
It's what I predicted would happen.

Now for the consequences of it. The president of the Japanese Automobile Federation, in a letter to Max Mosley on 15 May 2008, wrote:

"The World Council has unanimously agreed that we should avoid (a) vote of confidence at the Extraordinary General Assembly on 3 June, because if President Mosley would get no-confidence, it would mean disaster to him, and on the contrary, if President Mosley would get confidence, it would mean disaster to the FIA."

I agree with that assessment.

What remains to be seen is the manner in which this disaster to the FIA will unfurl.

[John]

How low we have gone as a society into moral decline. The man's embarrassed himself anyway, it's surprising that he wants to continue! If I were to ever meet him I'd find it hard to look him in the eye without laughing or take him seriously at all. What a joke.

[Walt]

This result shows the side of F1 which is absolutely pathetic!

These people have absolutely no principles!

It is a disgrace and brings disgrace to the sport and those around it.

[Peter Hornby]

It is amazing what he has been allowed to get away with.

His behaviour does not allow him access to certain parts of the world with more strict codes of behaviour.

What sort of ambassador is that for a supposed international body?

[Chris, London]

Good for Max. He is a wily old goat. It would have been quite wrong to hound him out of office for consensual, private, legal activities which none of us had any business knowing about in the first place. How many of those throwing stones would be happy for their private lives to be posted online for all to see?

[Neil]

No great surprise he scrapes through again.

Depressing cronyism in F1 nowadays.

[Derek Smith]

By my reckoning - my maths has been known to wander from the accurate - Mosley got 103 votes from the 177 delegates. Withheld votes count against.

So MRM poled less than 60% on a confidence vote. If over 40% of those you purport to represent reckon you are useless then that's resignation figures in any other company. (Advice taken on the precise percentages but not on the need for someone so humiliated to go.)

[AndyG]

Bang goes the FIA.

It's just like the IOC and FIFA.

When the presential team tie up the small countries with various incentives, the valid majority can be dictated to.

Sports participants need to leave corrupt and failing institutions.

[Peter White]

Ed, you really are a shameless old tart.
Is it really the case that you can be so right and the voting members of the FIA assembly can be so overwhelmingly mistaken?
103 versus 55 for Max. 7 abstentions.

[Ray]

It's good to see Germany's national motoring body, ADAC withdrawing FIA workgroup activities because of the result. I wonder how many more will follow, such as the Americans.

[Damon - Birmingham]

At least part of the role of President is to be a figure head. What good is a figure head who hides away from the press in his private office (as he did at Monaco)? In any other organisation someone who can't do some of their duties is either removed from office or demoted.

As an aside - whilst its regrettable that the FIA may now get broken up I have to applaud ADAC for their swift response and the stance they have chosen to take. A voice of sanity in this madness.

[Kim]

I do find it staggering the amount we are meant to forgive, forget, ignore or pretend didn't happen. We are all too aware of the moral decline of this country with the morally and criminally corrupt way in which our children.

They say that the rot starts at the top and seeps downwards and you only have to look at the effect Amy Winehouse, Pete Doherty, et el and their cocaine habit has had on the population of this country to see that the public follow blindly like slugs.

The moral decline that is spiralling out of control starts at the top and if the top people can get away with it, well.........you do the math (as they say in the States!)

[Robinson]

Who is the master of clinging to power? Mugabe, Brown or Mosley? Its at least obvious how Mugabe and Brown have managed it (so far) but what sort of people have propped up Mosley and who do they really represent? What was the UK delegates opinion? All very depressing and deeply disturbing.

[JoseBelgica]

Now that this is over, can we focus on F1 instead?

[Evonne O]

This shows how stupid the FIA is really is!!! I am ashamed..:(

[beachcomber]

As much as I think he is probably a thoroughly dislkeable man, I dont see who we are to judge someone that has indulged in what were his own fantasies. He hasnt actually harmed anyone. He was in a private place, playing his games, albeit to some they may well be perverted, but that is his choice, and those that were taking part. I wonder at a newspapers invasion of privacy. Are they going to infiltrate my house at night to see what i get up to? I find the moral line taken by a lot of these countries rather daft and shortsighted.As for people abstaining, that is even more shocking, they should all have an obligation to vote one way or the other, that alone makes a total mockery of the vote of no confidence.
Having said all that, its only motor racing, its not going to change the world. Its a daft and dull "sport" that attracts a lot of bizarre people whether they be participants or followers.
I presume they knew of his lineage and past when he took over the presidency so dont cry about it now, especially as some of these now detractors may well have already known about his perverse proclivities.

[Ray]

Interestingly, because of the ADAC's position, we could well see the European GP at the Nurburgring not taking place if Mosley stays in office until October 2009.

[neil]

F1 isn't in crisis. F1 is over. It was a great party for the past 90 years or so, but the reality is that it no longer has any place in todays society.

As for the Moseley debacle, his privacy should not have been violated in this way, we shouldn't live in a society that cares about this stuff, but it was and we do and he should have walked 7 weeks ago.

[Jo J]

D licious
D lightful
D feat

Oh D a!

P.S. Excellent post Aaron James.

[mart]

D,

does that mean you give no credence to any of the views expressed here so far ? :) Because that's all I am saying--incoherent, simplistic and provincial prejudices mocking Max Mosley.

[F1Ranter]

To the people who keep saying what Mosley did was "legal" - they're wrong. Brothels and Prostitution are ILLEGAL in the UK. Secondly, this is not just about the morals of Mosleys actions, but the effect his personal life has on the sport. Thos of you supporting him don't seem to see that a majority of Major manufacturers and Countries DONT want to have anything to do with him. ADAC (Europes largest Auto Club) has frozen dealings with the FIA. America and Japan will follow suit shortly. Its only a matter of time before the FIA governs over only a small number of dirt-bike tracks in Italy and Ferrari. F1 should and probably will pull away from the FIA and start F1A (or something similar - with my full support), and Mosley's place in history will rightly takes its place along side his Fathers...

[Graeme]

In reply to Aaron James "It is the same with his penchant for S&M. It is completely discriminatory to suggest you cannot work with someone because of their legal, private sexual preferences."

I believe that the law of England says that prostitution is illegal therefore Mr Mosely was breaking the law by engaging the services of those 5 nice ladies! This act would certainly be illegal in other countries of the world that that as the presidant of the FIA he would have to deal with. His position is untenable.

[Patrick Pepper]

No vote is going to change the fact that Mosley is a figure of fun forevermore. Opprobrium can be overcome; ridicule never can be. F1 fans worldwide should now take banners en masse to track after track, ridiculing the wrinkly-buttocked old spanker. Whole grandstands full of them, from Magny-Cours to Monza. Either we will ridicule him into submission or we will just ridicule him - either way, great fun.

[Andrew]

Nice to see that the concept of the Old Boys' Club is alive and thriving... I can't help but laugh when I think back to all those times when Max would beat an F1 driver and/or Team over the head with "Bringing the Sport into disrepute". If he had any scuples, he would've resigned the very day this sorry story broke.

[Tunde Uche]

I wonder how Max will celebrate his victory tonite,....edit/moderator... 'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark'

[D]

^
Derek Smith >

I always have great respect for the opinions you express but let us also not forget that Margaret Thatcher used to delight in exploiting the mandate given to her by a first-past-the-post electoral system in Britain to ram the views of the 38% of the national vote cast in her favour down the throats of the 62% of the national vote cast against her and call it "strong government" - instead of governing with a wisely sensitive awareness of what her true level of support actually was.

I have always considered proportional representation to be what is democratic. Politicians who ignore the true "grass root" opinions of those whom they govern do so at their peril.

As I think we may shortly see in regard to the FIA.

Indeed the process has already begun...

[javiervivaespania]

Only Magic can reestablish F1's honor now.

[Dave H]

Given how irritated and embarrassed the manufacturers and motorsports federations have been with this, surely it hugely magnifies the risk of a damaging split in the sport and the setting-up of a breakaway series?

[F1-Insider]

@ JoseBelgica

I somehow don't think it's over at all, rather it may well prove to be the start of other things. As I write already one club has pulled away, how many will follow?
Honda, Toyota, BMW and Mercedes (and possibly Renault) it's time to take the lead - Ferrari CANNOT race against themselves. Do not allow yourselves to e in any way tainted by either Mosley of those at the FIA who voted for him to stay.
It is time to set up a new governing body, it is time to give us all some real motor racing sport - who has the balls to be the first to speak out for what is right for the governance of F1?

[C. Class]

The outcome of the vote shows what an incredibly sly old fox Mosley is and demonstrates why he was able to hold on to his presidency for 15 years. Despite his tendency to be a dictator, he was THE man for the job. But enough is enough, if he has any class, he'll enjoy the victory for a few day, negotiate a golden parachute and then retire at the end of June.

[MDH]

D,I think you should make yourself available as a future president of the FIA! You would get my vote (or 1/3 of a vote, or proxy vote......)

[McLaren treated badly?]

"If the 103 countries [who voted in Mosley's favour] were read out, I guarantee you wouldn't recognise 99 percent of them, with a few notable exceptions." (Paul Stoddart)

Why does Stoddart assume that F1 fans are as ignorant as he is? F1 is a better sport without his opportunistic whining. He bought Minardi with the intention of selling it on at a profit, and jeopardised the future of F1 in Australia whilst he waited for this process to be completed. Now that he has finished his financial transaction he should refrain from sticking his nose into F1.

[MDH]

D

Have you ever considered making yourself available as president of the FIA - you would get my vote (or 1/3 of a vote, or proxy vote......)

[McLaren treated badly?]

Damon Hill, the least-talented F1 WDC of all time, is now quoting Bernie. It is a shame that Damon doesn't quote Bernie when discussing Silverstone, the most atrocious F1 venue that I have been to.

[McLaren treated badly?]

C. CLASS

The President of the FIA is a voluntary position. No golden parachute will be given to Mosley were he to stand down.

[Alex]

"Only Magic can reestablish F1's honor now."
javiervivaespania

ROFL... thanks Javier for the first good laugh of this bad day.

I presume you do really mean Magic this time, you know, rabbits, wands, abcadabra etc. Still, even so, a tall order ....

[Dean]

Interesting perspective on Silverstone from McLaren Treated Badly? Obviously never been to Spa or Monza! ps - Damon's generally accepted by most pundits as underated - remember his drive at Suzuka in 94 where he beat Schumacher fair and square....in the wet!

[D]

^
Damon >

Although secret ballots are a wise thing at the fundamental level of an election, those who appoint others to vote for them at higher levels of administration should be entitled to know how their own representative has voted on their behalf.

How else can they have faith in the belief that their own vote is being applied to the system?

How else can they know whether or not to re-elect them?

That is why, in Britain, the population votes secretly but the voting records of their representatives are publicly available to them for inspection.

You were the one who opined on here a few weeks ago - in defence of the resolute and supremely arrogant refusal of the MSA representatives to tell their members for whom they intended to vote and why - that having a secret ballot was an advantage.

I pointed out to you at the time that it was a two-edged weapon.

Why do you suppose Mosley wanted a secret ballot?

Personally, I now applaud those who voted against Mosley, I disagree with those who voted in favour of him, I accept (but deprecate) the fact that some wished genuinely to abstain but I have total contempt for those who did not and have not reveal(ed) how they cast their vote on behalf of those whom they represent.

^
MART >.

No. Because what we were being asked to do in this thread, when it began, was to give an opinion on the verdict without knowing what took place at the meeting.

And what I was saying was that I wanted to know - before passing final judgement on the verdict at the meeting - whether or not anything additional was revealed at the meeting that would cause me to change the view I held before it began.

Although extremely unlikely, that was possible.

Suppose, for example, that Mosley had produced evidence that The News of the World had been duped and the video clip it posted was a fabrication, with all those appearing in it being actors?

Suppose, for example, that Mosley had produced evidence that the real story was that he had (with the full knowledge of the authorities) participated in something that was profoundly distasteful to him in order to enable the Police to capture a team of blackmailers?

Things are not always what they appear to be at first sight and one can only form a view based upon what one is aware of (and realising what one might not be.)

But none of that would have rendered it invalid to take a view and to comment upon the situation as it appeared to be before the meeting commenced.

I'm merely saying that further prosecution of that opinion should then have been suspended until the events of the meeting had been revealed. (Which is what I did.)

^
JavierVivaAlonso >

I do so love your postings. :-)

Where would we be without our much appreciated court jester at times of strife?

What you do for us here is invaluable.

[KoJ Finland]

Hello
Strange reading this result as it is what I expected yet still a shock in seeing it. Why should any of those that did the right thing what to be part of the FIA anymore?
Like a few others I would like to see formula one break away from the FIA.
The teams have been silent since this all started and now with Mosley winning the vote they are going to stay silent as I do not see any of them putting themselves forward and I have read this afternoon that BMW have said they should concentrate on racing, I expected more from them.
Although I work in the UK I have spoken to friends in Finland and they are shocked but like me not surprised as the FIA doe not hold much respect any more, that is if it ever did.
I think every now and again a big shake-up is needed, in governments, in business and the likes of the FIA and now is the right time for formula one it just needs momentum.

[Damon - Birmingham]

D

I've said nothing on here today about secret ballots and honestly can't remember doing so a few weeks ago - can you refresh my memory please?

[McLaren treated badly?]

DEAN

I have been to all of the circuits that you mention (and many others). From a spectator perspective, Silverstone is by far the worst, and deserves whatever criticism it gets.

As for your remarks about Damon at Suzuka '94, what most people conveniently overlook is the fact that Schumacher's strategy was hampered by the race being divided into two parts. Even if Damon had been superior to Michael on that day, it is fair to say that that would have been the only occasion in his career when he was. Remember Suzuka '95 - Damon was off towards the end of the race as soon as a few spots of rain came in contact with the circuit.

Perhaps you should go back and read some of the race reports and other articles that appeared in the British media from 1994-6. I find it very hard to believe that anybody could claim that Damon was underrated.

[Damon - Birmingham]

McLaren Treated Badly?

You seem to have forgotten my namesake's superb drive at the Hungaroring in an Arrows where he would have won but for mechanical problems, or the way he turned Jordan into a Grand Prix winning team. Hardly the performance of someone with as little talent as you suggest.

As for Mr Hill's opinions, he's not a sheep, when he agrees with Ecclestone he says so and when he disagrees he says so. A few more like him at today's meeting and I'm sure MM would have lost the vote today.

[McLaren treated badly?]

DEREK SMITH

“…event in a teacup Stepneygate fiasco where the only evidence was that two drivers used Ferrari set-up information in testing, that makes his position untenable. Even Mosley was forced to admit that McLaren Corporate did not know of the use, nor had sight of the 780pp document that Stepney and Coughlan had for their own purposes.”

You have been reading this forum long enough to know that your comments are, to say the very least, somewhat wide of the mark.

In case you have forgotten, Martin Whitmarsh wrote an apology to the FIA and acknowledged that Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso were not the only employees at Vodafone McLaren Mercedes who had access to Ferrari documentation. Indeed McLaren engineers sent emails to one another which containing terms such as 'mole'. As for the Toyota case, Toyota employees were not referring to Ferrari design data when developing their own car. It is for this reason that the FIA did not investigate Toyota's actions.

Given your background in law enforcement, I am surprised at your inability to access and process all available information before reaching conclusions.

[supercampeaobrasileiro]

I follow racing - I dont find this political event interesting at all -i could not care less what moseley gets up to behind closed doors and i find some of the moralising hilarious...very victorian! Is motor racing supposed to be some kind of religious order? Have they all taken some vow of purity??

Does it make any difference to moseley's actual substantive decision-making in his role as president (putting to one side authority/co-operation etc)?

i just want to get back to watching the racing :)

[Richard]

@McLaren Treated Badly - 'Damon Hill, the least-talented F1 WDC of all time' - a little bit harsh when you look at the stats. Whilst I'm sure even Damon wouldn't claim to be the greatest driver that ever lived, there are several others who probably deserve the title more, although I feel uncomfortable naming names because I think all (well most) F1 drivers deserve maximum respect, especially those who have won the WC.

Silverstone might be in need of some work, but I've been to other venues which hardly fair better. I thought Spa was decidedly 'down at heel' when I visited, and it took hours for the coach to get out of the traffic jams on the way home. And the state of the toilets at Monza will live with me forever.

However, these tracks all have something special, that more modern venues lack - a great deal of history, and they are all fabulous drivers' circuits. They should all remain on the calendar permanently.

I was at a Silverstone test day last year, and I got to view the cars from a number of places I've never seen them from before (you won't see the same at a GP, too many people blocking the view). I've also driven the track myself, sadly not in an 800bhp car, but the F1 cars were an absolutely awesome sight - true F1 fans wouldn't want to see the end of these fabulous circuits for F1 races, despite the fact that some of the facilities need upgrading.

[D]

^
Damon >

Sorry, if I gave the impression of taking any sort of swipe at you. That wasn't my intention. (Truly)

What I was referring to, somewhat obliquely - which may have given that impression - was your posting in the thread "Common Decency" last April.

/

"With the axe still hanging over the British Grand Prix and with the current axeman (Bernie Ecclestone) being a friend of Max's - I suspect the MSA's silence is part of an attempt to ensure that the British Grand Prix doesn't get cut anytime soon. However the vote on Mosley's future is going to be a secret ballot so just because they don't say anything in public doesn't mean they won't vote to remove him in June."

POSTED BY: DAMON - BIRMINGHAM | 11 APR 2008 11:05:03

/

I was grateful to you at the time because it triggered my mind to think about the implications of a secret ballot, and, thereby, the dangers of it.

Just why, I asked myself then, is Mosley so anxious to have a secret ballot? The man is like Ecclestone: he does nothing without a reason and he is very clever. And then I realised.

I did reply to you at the time, once it had dawned, but please don't ask me to find that one - it has just taken me 15 minutes to track down yours!

I really do mean no offence to you. It's the secret ballot and the arrogantly silent MSA representatives' attitude towards those whom they represent that was the object of my ire.

[MARK KLEIN, M.D.]

Very likely Mosley's victory will draw more fans to racing. He brought into the light the universality of the harmless acting out in controlled settings of the expression of deep sexual fantasy life which so enrichs people's lives.

[D]

^
JLK >

NASCAR has been much on my own mind recently as an organisation that might provide a useful haven for F1 if it broke away from the FIA. Because it would certainly need one - one with some heavy clout, too.

In total contrast to the FIA and FOM, which does everything possible to prevent fans and spectators getting anywhere near a static racing car, let alone a driver, while its power brokers luxuriate in air-conditioned Portacabins counting their money, comprehensively insulated from the oiks who are creating their wealth, NASCAR determinedly concentrates on putting on a good show for the paying spectator.

If anyone suggested letting the public into the F1 paddock to talk to the drivers, Ecclestone would fall of his wallet and Mosley would go in traumatised search of a thrashing.

But that's exactly what NASCAR and CART do - and the fans love it. The whole idea of doing anything for the spectators is regarded with contempt by the FIA and FOM - all they care about is screwing the circuits for money and holding TV networks to ransom. The spectators are just a damned nuisance as far as they're concerned: let them find a bush if they need a toilet unless we can charge them $20 to use one, now go away and put a new fragrance spray in my private bathroom, etc.

This is not the right thread to launch into that, but the relevance of it to this thread is to ask yourself just how kindly and indulgently that nice Mr. Mosley whom the FIA has just endorsed would react towards any circuit that hosted a race for a series that had broken away from the FIA.

Who could possibly think that a sadistic thought would ever cross his mind when deciding whether or not to apply every threat and sanction he could come up with to stop it?

Who could dream of the idea that any driver that participated in it might encounter problems when next he tried to race in a series that was still within the vice-like grip of the benign Mr. Mosley?

That is what was at stake in today's meeting of the FIA.

[D]

^
SuperCamp >

The type of racing that you do get to go back and watch will be entirely determined by the politics.

The politics controls what is provided for you to watch.

And how much it will cost you to watch it.

If you don't take an interest in the politics you wind up being the victim of whatever dross somebody else wants to sell you at an exorbitant price.

[Derek Smith]

MTB,

Rather than just read comments on these forums, I have read the full report of the FIA enquiry on their website. I have also studied the comments of McLaren corporate. I also know the procedures in such matters as discipline hearings.

The CEO of McLaren made one statement which can be read a number of ways. Further, such a statment is a 'requirement' of such discipline hearings in that the victim must admit to something to ensure no further penalty, which in McLaren's case could only be exclusion for 2008.

McLaren Corporate though were of stern stuff and stated, in clear and easy to follow form, that they did not agree with 'all' the conclusions of the hearing. This is tantamount to disagreeing with the decision. That Mosley did not take this challenge to his authority further is remarkable.

The 'confession' from McLaren Corporate was that they agreed that: "the central conclusion that some pieces of Ferrari information may have been disclosed via Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan, directly or indirectly to individuals within McLaren other than Pedro de la Rossa and Fernando Alonso."

Neither McLaren, nor anyone else, was able to identify these individuals by name, position or other means. In other words, there was no evidence to support that others knew of this information. The use of the modifier 'may' is significant in such statements. It says two things: literally that it may not, and the implication is that they do not believe that it did.

Those 'central pieces' were setup information. Really minor stuff, and certainly nowhere near the amount of info that went between Renault/Toyota. The FIA examined 1.5 terrabytes of information and around 25 McLaren computers and found no Ferrari information. That is zero, none, absolute zilch. McLaren admitted that they had not gone through that amount of information, deciding to depend, quite rightly as it turned out, on their systems.

Further, the only evidence against McLaren was on the mobiles of Alonso and PdlRosa. McLaren never argued against Coughlan/Alonso/PdlRosa's involvement. Indeed, despite rumours to the contrary, Ron Dennis informed Mosley of it within minutes of Alonso bringing the information to his attention. The FIA is Mosley and RD was the original source.

You have, for reasons I am unaware of, an axe to grind against McLaren and Ron Dennis. You may indulge this but please do not spread rumour and speculation. McLaren were indeed treated dreadfully. Mosley admitted that McLaren corporate and RD in particular had no sight of the 780pp document. The only, the only, information against McLaren was the set-up information which is, I can assure you, pretty minor stuff, and some other minor information. It is my guess that Alonso was seeking some advantage over his team mate. But that is my guess so, like all specualtion, all it says is that it is my belief so cannot be depended on.

The only people that the FIA had any evidence against of wrong doing was Alonso, PdlRosa and Coughlan.

Coughlan, together with Stepney, had the 780pp document for their own purposes, which has not yet been disclosed so I cannot comment on. However, others, including reputable F1 commentators, have suggested that they 'touted' it to one, or possibly two, other teams in the pitlane. There has never been any suggestion that it was touted to McLaren or RD.

Ron Dennis was given information indirectly from Stepney of Ferrari's successful attempt to use illegal floors in their cars. Ferrari were never punished for this. McLaren, who, like Ferrari, had a rogue employee, were fined the highest amount of money ever in any sport for something they were unaware of.

As a comparison, Benetton removed a filter from a fuel pipe. This caused a conflagration at a GP whhich endangered the lives of the pit crew and potentially that of officials and spectators alike. And the penalty?

MTB, your prejudices are your own. But please challenge them by reading the official documents and before suggesting that McLaren have admitted to wrongdoing, read their actual words.

Mosley and the FIA have all stated that there was no evidence that McLaren Corporate were aware of the use of the setup information. Mosley, who is the FIA when it comes to F1, said that he believed that neither McLaren Corporate nor Ron Dennis were aware of the use of the minor bits of information. But you, it seems, know better.

My sources are official documents.

[michail g]

BAD NEWS FOR F1 WORLD.Anyway F1 the last couple of years is not the same as used to be.I do not even visit any Grand Prix anymore.Time to find another sport.

[John]

Where was the ADAC, the German motoring organisation, when one of it's distinguished members, Mercedes AG , was and still is teaming up with McLaren, the company who admitted to cheating on December 5, 2007 ?

[Nick]

I cannot understand the description of the FIA's action as "spineless". Since the mob is baying for blood, giving it too them would seem the easy option.

Mosley's actions may be distasteful to many, although most of the critics seem to be taking at face value the worst the tabloid press are saying. Perhaps you should pause for a moment if this is a standard of justice you would enjoy yourself.

The key point seems to me that Mosley never intended to publicise his actions, so if any "offence" has been caused, then surely it is those who publicise it who are offensive - in the case the press, who are pathetically trying to take the moral high ground.

If somebody secretly took a pictures of me having sex/being naked/whatever, and posted them in a public place, then nobody would reasonably blame me for "causing offence" - they would blame the persons who did the publication. So the only thing that is different here is that his sexual desires are "perverse" rather than "normal".

If you then accept that having "perverse" (lets set aside the problem of defining that one!) sexual habits are grounds for someone to be disgraced and driven from thier job (even if they are done in private), you are presumably also sanctioning any degree of intrusion into private to lives to see if someone has such habits. After all if its a valid criteria for driving someone from thier job, then we surely have a right to know.

Following such a line it is hard to see how anyone can be entitled to a private life at all. After all if its OK to check up to see if someone is doing something perverse, we must be able to check up on everyone - after all you never know who might be up to it. And where do you draw the line ? Three in a bed - is that OK? Homosexuality ? (This would probably offend the middle east as much what Mosley did, which seems to be a killer argument for many)

If Mosley's claimed some kind of moral leadership to others (e.g. if he was a priest, or "family values" politician) then there might be a legitimate case based on exposing hypocrisy. But it doesn't.

There was never any need for us to know what Mosley got up to in his free time, it served no public interest, and was merely a purient intrusion to sell cheap and nasty newspapers. So congratulations to the FIA to rejecting the hypocritical and sanctimonious "scandal mongers". The true "perversity" is the pathetic interest in other people's sex lives.

[Nickie D]

Thought you might want to see this: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34986

Don't have to post it in the comments if you don't want. What have you done to upset the people of Pitpass (bar working for The Times).

[Jordi]

Sponsors?
People will be watching F1, with Max or without him. Do not worrie, sponsors will keep bringing the money!

[Felipe]

Javier, I'm a huge fan of Earvin 'Magic' Johnson. Do you think there is any blood connections between the two? Is that also why I'm a huge fan of Alonso?

[Avana Beach]

I think it's interesting that so many people whose hobby seems to be watching cars go round and round at high speed seem to think that that is more important than whether or not it is right that the media, or anyother agency, should be allowed to pry into, and publicise on an international scale, anyone's private legal activities, possibly even including their own

[philip]

Trying to hound out Mosley in a grand act of self-righteous sanctimonious humbug has come a cropper in style.It proves that the majority (two-thirds)of the members want a distinction to be made between a man's private life and his competence as the head of the FIA,no matter how distasteful his private behaviour has been.Remember,that it was not Mosley's public display of character that is in question,it was the prying eyes of the media.If the media is allowed into all the world's bedrooms,we might very well have to follow in Diogenes' footsteps!

[Gary M]

Jordi, Jordi, Jordi,

Whatever are you going on about man?

I bet you there is not a single fan of this sport who would not want Ferrari to partake if there were to be a breakaway competition. Of course it would devalue the sport massively if they were not there, whether they are winning races or mid-field wannabe's it does not change, they are Ferrari and always the team to beat.

I cannot believe you really think that people on this board would not want Ferrari to be in the sport.

But it is a fact that Ferrari will be the team that drags its heels and refuse to consider a breakaway, They have done it before of course. What people are saying is if Ferrari refuse again then stuff them, let them race on their own. It will be to the detriment to the sport but probably not any worse than the situation we are in now. After all Ferrari might as well be the FIA and this is part of the reason why the FIA is failing the sport.

I will not be surprised if the teams, without or without Ferrari, will be having discussions this weekend. I think this could be the best thing for the sport in the long run, it would be good if everyone was together though.

[john o'doe]

Monkeybusiness!!!!
The Mosley affair has shown up the lack of modern governance in motorsport. It seems truly amazing that serious companies such BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda continue to tolerate this kind of corruption which can only harm their corporate interests.
How could Jean Todt or Michael Schumacher or any other Ferrari employee proposed as FIA president have an unbiaised attitude towards rival F1 camps? What would Todt senior's attitude be towards his son, Nicolas' activities as agent for F1 drivers?
How can the head of the FIA be a private business partner with the head of FOM? How can he,Bernie, have business interests with a F1 team principal? How can Briatore head the Renault F1 team and be at the same time, agent for drivers employed by rival teams? Why does anyone who wants to drive for Renault also have to accept Briatore as his agent?
The stables badly need mucking out.

[IDR]

@AARON JAMES

“Thankfully Max's strong character, his dignity and grace…”

DIGNITY: "the state of being worthy of honor or respect".(The Oxford Encyclopedic English Dictionary)

Dignity is the highest human value, is an infinite goal to strive for, but is the People who evaluate what I deserve as a man and my dignity depends partially on that.

To do goodness to a man or woman means to increase his dignity. Why it hurts when someone disrespect me? It is because respect elevates my value, my dignity; disrespect humiliates.

But on the other hand, if I disrespect others, that action not only humiliates other’s value but my own also.

Do you honestly think a person who obtains personal satisfaction being punished by others and by punishing others (not only physically, but as human being) should be considered a person with high standard of dignity?

You, as some few others, are always talking about freedom, but you are giving dignity to people not knowing what the hell that means.

The only thing I feel the need to tell you:

Society knows freedom when its people know dignity.

And you are clearly prisoner of your own ignorance and/or frivolity.

[Derek Smith]

Pitpass suggest that in the great scheme of things, the decision to support MRM by two thirds of the delegates is very minor, in that polar bears will not suffer, nor will the Black Death return. And, indeed, bereft of its silliness, it is quite correct. However, this matter concerns the FIA, which is MRM, and has a major bearing on the sport I love. Polar bears, famine and the return of the black death are unaffected, but what of F1?

The FIA is suffering a major threat to its existance and F1 will be drawn into the pain as well. The FISA and FOCA wars ruined F1 for me and this has the potential to be much, much more damaging.

I like PitPass. Some of its columnists are excellent and Mike Lawrence is always worth reading. However, they've missed the point on this one. I've heard no one suggest that the Mosley debacle is up there with food riots and AIDS. It's just a sport. But the sport will suffer and it will be the fans who will have the brunt of the agony.

F1 should not be lead by a man who indulges his fantasies of violence against women, and buying women for the purpose just makes it worse.

F1 will be damaged and I feel, given the fact that the FIA have, for whatever reason, endorsed him and his actions, then it should be.

The odd thing is that it would appear that the clubs and mobility groups against MRM represent in excess of 85% of the membership of the FIA. By voting for MRM and against the express wishes of the powerful groupings, the minor clubs have risked everything for what might turn out to be a mess of potage. Theirs was not a moral standpoint, it was self interest that might well backfire on them.

Sic transit FIA.

[Derek Smith]

According to PitPass.com, Mosley's 'majority' consisted of just 5% of the represented membership of the FIA.

[jordi]

Gary M

-"I cannot believe you really think that people on this board would not want Ferrari to be in the sport".

Is not what I think, it's what they say. In fact even you seem to go trough such a trauma.

I have to congratulate you Gary. No many people (only politicians) manage to say one thing and the opposite in just a few lines.

Anyway... I won't go on about you said... and I said...

I just don’t think a championship without Ferrari would be better as it is now.

@IDR, I may or may not agree with you, but your posts are great. It looks like they have been written by Obamas’ speech writer. Fantastic!

Regards

[McLaren treated badly?]

DEREK SMITH

You stated that I should not,“…spread rumour and speculation.”

Please give examples of where I have done this. Your claim is somewhat hollow, given that you acknowledge in the same posting to be speculating.

Whilst your posting is very lengthy, which could give the impression that you know what you are talking about, it is very clear that you either have not read the report by the FIA Technical Department to the World Motor Sport Council, or have read it but forgotten its contents. Communications between McLaren engineers are provided in this document. Of course names and specific details were not published - perhaps this is the basis for your argument?

If you were to read all of the official documents on the Stepney/Coughlan saga, you would know that the car that Ferrari raced in Melbourne was deemed by the FIA not to be illegal. Furthermore, you conveniently ignore the fact that the McLaren and Red Bull teams were also required to carry out similar modifications, and that their cars were not deemed to be illegal either. Why do you accuse Ferrari of running an illegal car, but not McLaren and Red Bull?

In your selective account of Whitmarsh’s grovelling apology, you do not mention that, amongst other things, he stated that the "entire situation could have been avoided if we had informed Ferrari and the FIA about Nigel Stepney's first communication when it came to our attention.”

What do you think that a team that prides itself on integrity should have done in such a situation?

In terms of ethics and morality, McLaren is no different to any other team in F1. Time and again its management, along with many in the British motorsport media and many F1 fans, speak of it as though it were a saintly organisation. What does McLaren’s decision to still employ Matt Bishop after his dodgy Renault dossier say to you about the organisation?

In the future, you would benefit from ensuring that are familiar with the entire contents of all official documents relating to a topic before posting comments. With regards to having an axe to grind, take a look at the quantity and size of your postings before passing judgement on others. If people such as yourself were to study all of the facts, and post comments that included all of the facts, then my postings on McLaren would not be necessary.

F1-INSIDER

I am happy to discuss other topics with you, and I am pretty sure that we have done so already. If I recall, we have agreed on some issues (not related to Stepney/Coughlan). Unlike some on this forum, I don’t care whether or not other posters take me, or what I write, seriously. I appreciate how insignificant I am, and do not see why it should be up to you to decide what should and shouldn’t be deemed a worthy name for a poster - that is the moderator’s duty.

[D]

^
Mark Sinden >

If you hold the remarkably naive belief that what appears under the by-line of any journalist in any newspaper other than a private news-sheet is necessarily what he or she originally wrote, you have an ignorance of newspapers and their production that renders you totally unqualified to level any of the accusations and criticisms that you make.

Do you even know whether there actually exists an individual journalist whose real name is Edward Gorman?

Think about that.

[Peter]

What he does in his private life is no concern of ours. He has done a tremendous amount of work to improve driver safety and I'm convinced his actions have saved many lives.
Those who exposed his private life should be prosecuted.

[Damon - Birmingham]

D

Ah - I'd forgotten about that post! Thanks for reminding me. It looks like I was wrong (wouldn't be the first time). Don't worry I didn't take offence - I genuinely couldn't remember posting that (though I do now) and thought you had me confused with someone else.

[Damon - Birmingham]

NickieD

I think the fact that Ed has upset the Editor of Pitpass is to his credit. The Editor of that site (Chris Balfe) sent me an email calling me "juvenile" when I pointed out that there was an error in his race report for the Brazilian Grand Prix in 2005 (he claimed Webber retired at the start when in fact he lasted 45 laps). He told me I was wrong - he claimed the Williams Press Officer had told Webber retired at the start and so I was wrong (as were the official results) and he was right. He also put an ip block on me so I can't even look at his forum anymore let alone post there.

Hardly the action of a mature journalist!

[D]

^
IDR >

You really are remarkable! Spot on, as ever.

Any day that passes here without a contribution from you is a day impoverished.

[IDR]

@D

The menú man, the menu!

Just focus yourself on what really matters. Others, have to spend their life thinking about how to become... something.

On the other hand, mate, your contributions are what worths this blog. (and so many others) no mines.

Ed, take note and don't return back D's bills!

[Derek Smith]

For those confused by MTB's comment about Whitmarsh's 'groveling apology': the McLaren CEO said in his letter to the FIA poset hearing. It went along these lines:

". . . despite not agreeing with the findings . . . We have reflected on these matters carefully and critically and in particular on the comments made by the FIA president to the effect that, had we contacted Jean Todt as soon as we were aware of the ‘whistleblowing’ information coming from Stepney, these matters could all have been avoided."

So all Whitmarsh was saying was that they have considered what Mosley said. They were not punished for not telling Ferrari of the source of the information about their illegal floor as there was no requirement for them to do so. Mind you, it's about the only thing that Mosley/FIA couldn't fine them for.

If the FIA had found a frog not hopping at the pond at McL's HQ in Woking one feels they'd have been hit by another $100M fine.

[jlk]

To IDR
3 Cheers (again) to IDR! Boy did I peg you wrong last year. Extremely good post from a non native speaker yet! Better than most of us English speakers
Thks
JLK

[Richard]

I think it's plain to see for anyone with a reasonable intelligence that McLaren had to issue a statement that would get the FIA off their backs. I wouldn't be surprised if the wording had been agreed with the FIA as part of the negotiations over the sanctions against McLaren. It must have been a fantastic thrill to force a proud organisation to grovel in this manner, akin to a head lice search perhaps?

What I find odd is the fact that the FIA is so inconsistent:

Why has McLaren received such a huge punishment when other teams that have been involved in the same kind of activity have got off scot free?

Why was there no punishment of Ferrari when it was their poor security and lack of control over their employees that allowed this situation to occur in the first place?

Why was such a big issue made of it at all when it's common knowledge that this kind of thing has been going on in F1 for ever and a day?

Why did Schumacher end up with such tiny punishment when he parked his Ferrari at Rascasse? Doing this in front of millions of people surely brought the sport into disrepute.

Why was Ferrari given no punishment for illegal barge boards when to have done so would have handed the title to McLaren?

Why did Benetton receive such minor punishment for tampering with a fuel rig, thus causing a huge fire?

Why did Benetton receive such minor punishment for having illegal traction control on their cars when in the past teams have been banned for an entire season for blatant forms of cheating?

Why did Schumacher receive no punishment for knocking Damon Hill out of contention in '94 but had all his points taken away for exactly the same thing three years later (but only after he had already put himself out of contention so it made no difference anyway)

(Regarding the last few questions, could it possibly be that Germany would have been a highly lucrative market to get into for the FIA and a German world champ was the best way to achieve it?)

Leaving the best question to last, how come MM has been allowed to stay in his position after making a laughing stock of a once proud and illustrious organisation? For the answer to all these questions, perhaps we just need to consider who has presided over all of them!

[Anon (the real one)]

To D: I haven't had the time to read your post in whole, but NEVER mix F1 with NASCAR. Trust me, if F1 is a institution, NASCAR is a brothel. THey are completely different, and one has sporting and etiquette quality (my apologies to NASCAR fans).

The two should never blend.

Now the diea of having the public talk to the drivers: sure, why not, but do we reallyneed Aerican Southeners still stuck inthe days of creationism to explain us how to do it?

[LAK]

LOL @ Javier!

I agree with Chris, London. I do think what Max Mosley did was disgusting, we weren't supposed to know about it in the first place. I did prefer if he lost because of the never-ending commotion he caused, but I guess one cannot punish someone for being unlawfully spied on and then embarrassed in front of the world. Everyone's privacy deserves to be respected, and no matter how wrong his act was, it doesn't mean that someone has the right to expose him in such manner. I wish he left so that we can leave all this behind, but to our dismay Max stays and we'll be reminded of his repulsive behavior again and again. Good luck to us all for never hearing the end of this...

[Richard]

Any organisation structured with the majority of votes representing 5% of its members is corrupt an should not exist

[Richard]

@Richard - 'Any organisation structured with the majority of votes representing 5% of its members is corrupt an should not exist'

It's not that I disagree with you, it's just that things could get rather confusing with two Richards posting in the same name about the same topic (please scroll up to see my posts). I wouldn't want you to be on the receiving end of any criticism meant for me, so could you please add an identifying initial to avoid confusion if you intend posting again? If you don't want to, please let me know so I can change mine. Thanks

[McLaren treated badly?]

DEREK SMITH

The times clearly believes that McLaren issued a grovelling apology.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3048501.ece

Furthermore, Whitmarsh wrote,

"We apologise unreservedly if our prior ignorance of some of these facts has misled the World Motor Sports Council and we can only assure you all that this was never our intention.2

I notice that you have failed to discuss issues such as communications between McLaren staff and the legality of the McLaren and Red Bull that competed at Melbourne in 2007, and I wonder if this was purely out of convenience.

RICHARD and DEREK SMITH

Please read the following.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63877

[Derek Smith]

RICHARD and possibly RICHARD as well,

I used to be of the opinion that the fact that smaller clubs had the same voting power as the massive ones was a point in the FIA's favour. It should stop bullying. The MSA is a minor player compared to some of the largest and if block voting had been a factor then there was little point in the samller clubs taking part.

However, there are limits and I think in this situation the minor clubs have taken a risk which might well cost them, and eventually us.

5% imposing its will on the rest is a recipe for disaster.

The hope is that F1 can distance itself from the FIA but that would take unanimity, something which it is not noted for.

What chance a manufacturers-led F1 now?

For all the faults with the present system it has given us some great racing. It's only been since, I suppose, the Indy debacle that the problems with having the likes of MRM in sole charge has started to have a massive influence. The fact that Ferrari, the richest team in the pitlance, has been given preferential treatment has not caused them to run away with the races, although it has to be accepted that 8 championships in the last ten years is bad for the sport. But even this did not really affect the sport from a fan's point of view, at least not before the dreadful handling of Stepneygate.

Whilst it might be difficult to see any change being for the worse, in such a volatile situation as MRM has brought to the FIA and F1 by his actions, I can't see any settlement being to the benefit of our sport.

[Derek Smith]

MTB,

It is difficult to see any point in arguing with someone who considers:
"We apologise if our prior ignorance . . . " as a grovelling apology. If you read it in English, you can see that it is not even an apology. 'We apologise if' is conditional and it says quite specifically that they did not mislead the WMSC. It says that McLaren were as unaware of the circumstances as the WMSC was.

Still, as I say there's no point in arguing with someone who doesn't listen and puts forward one of the best arguments against his point of view as something supporting it.

[D]

^
I see a new career emerging for our Derek. :-)

Perhaps, he could offer his services to The Telegraph and stop them getting everything Garside-up.

With his police experience he might also be a more worthy companion for Ed ....Moderator/edit.

How good are you on gastronomy, Derek?

[McLaren treated badly?]

DEREK SMITH

Let me explain matters to you in the simplest manner possible.

Person A says to Person B, "I am sorry if I upset you."

If Person B was upset by Person A, then Person A has given an apology to Person B.

It is very simple, huh?

As for your comment about there being "no point in arguing with someone who doesn't listen", you have been making factually-questionable comments and then sidestepping matters completely when proven wrong. What does this say about you?

[Derek Smith]

D

I have another career at the moment: I am deputy editor of a 7000+ circulation magazine. Whilst I would love to assist Ed, or any journo in F1 come to that, I know nothing about gastronomy (I used to own a telescope though).

I used to report on Le Mans Endurance Series races and worked with 'real' reporters and photographers. I can assure you, and look for backing from Ed here, that the glamour is noticeable only by its absence.

It rained throughout the LMES at Silverstone in 2005 (or so) and the photographers came into the press room absolutely soaked time and again.

I got all the times and positions for each hour from the press office reports but when I tried to write the article, the sheets of paper had formed into a sort of bread-like mass.

And you can see absolutely nothing of the race from the pits and such and I used to record the race on TV so that I knew what had gone on.

But it's tremendous fun. You should hear what the press blokes say amongst themselves. I wondered if they were saying such things for my benefit, but I realised that it was the norm.

I wondered if the drivers knew the opinion of the journos of their abilities.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy had good advice for journos at motor races - always know where your towel is.

The food that you get from some of the pits is excellent but always cold.

I was on the grid at the Nov LMES race at Le Mans in 2003. I was changing memory cards in my camera and as my fingers were soaked I dropped the new one on the track. I had been speaking briefly to the grid girl in front of the car I was photographing and she bent down to pick it up. I thanked her and said my fumbling showed me up as the amateur I was. She said, No, it was the fact that you didn't touch me up the [bottom] when I bent down.

I wonder if Ed would like to comment?

[Rolf Bjork]

All this about a personal sexual activity?
Is it really acceptable to film a persons private affairs with hidden cameras and then use this material against them? Shame on the hypocritical voyeurs! Yes, all of you.

[mike]

Go away Max. And what clubs voted how? If the rules' organization want to have any credibility, surely the vote should be public. But still, Max, just go away.

[D]

^
Jo J >

You're wrong.

The FIA voted overwhelmingly for the man whose universally known conduct of himself they feel best represents the standards with which they wish to be identified and who, as president, can best project them to the world.

I was D-lighted.

[D]

^
This has been a long week in which many stressful emotions have been expressed.

I feel that a little light relief is called for, to cheer us all up.

Some of you may remember a film made by Mel Brooks quite some time ago, called "The Producers".

Here is a brief video of a (carefully) staged production of one of its more memorable scenes. It doesn't contain the wonderful Zero Mostel, nor Gene Wilder, but it does bear watching right through.

I would like to make it absolutely clear (it says here) that to suggest in any way whatsoever that it could possibly be associated in anybody's mind with any events or any performances of any sort which may or may not have taken place in Paris or anywhere else last week, last March or at any other time would be utterly preposterous.

It is just a little bit of good clean fun, of which, I am sure that the likes of, for example, the eminent barrister Mr. Anthony Scrivener, Q.C. would thoroughly approve.

I do hope you will enjoy it. (Even Jo J)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5KM2HosqOo

(c) Basement Productions (Chelsea & Paris) Inc. 2008

[taylor]

u need pics