Mid-season gap and an imagined post about Ferrari

While Mosley and the News of the World thrash out the rights and wrongs of the privacy issue, I am taking a few days off, mid-season as it were. I will be back on Monday as we begin the build-up to Hockers(not my favourite place on the schedule, it has to be said).

I was going to do something on Ferrari - are they and their drivers becoming error prone to a point where it should be ringing alarm bells? Luca di M is obviously getting a little irritated. A big challenge for the new regime led by Stefano Domenicali one imagines. How many errors have there been by the drivers, how many by the pitwall? In the absence of my contribution, perhaps you guys can sort this one out. All your comments will be posted as normal while I am elsewhere.

This is another marathon season with more going on away from the track than on it and I feel knackered. I can hardly believe we still have nine races to go. I know Lewis is only 23 and super-fit, but I seriously wonder how he can keep going at the pace he is. I hope he gets the chance just to do nothin' for few days - kick around the house, talk to the dog, watch the telly, get on the PlayStation, get bored, stare into space, eat a few "wrong" things and listen to some music. He could be world champion if he does...

Here are a few relatively dreadful pics from the crap photographer, trying to keep his camera dry at Silverstone on race morning. Click on images to enlarge if you really feel you have to...(the Williams car's not bad though)...

Comments

[Carleton Twitchell]

Ed...enjoy your well-earned break...sounds like you need a couple of pints and a plate of fish and chips in that pub at Torcross,Devon to refresh the inner Ed!The best in the UK.
Now...Ferrari..the reason theyre awash with errors is theyve lost the karma of Brawn and Todt.Le Patron karma. The Enzo magique!Massa and Kimi
head-butting each other for superiority ...Kimi not getting No1 support and talking about retirement ..you can live very well in Finland til youre 100 years old on what hes made so far.Why kill yourself trying? Quite.Lifes too short anyway.Massa ...now theres lucky...or is it all in the set-up? A good race engineer can win or lose a champeenship .So we'll see the team self-destruct until someone there gives the green light to the yet-to-be-dominant driver ...if Massa was say 10 points ahead , it'd be LH all over again , wouldnt it . Kimi would throw a big mardy Finnish gloom-face , drink more , prob retire mid season Sir Jackie style (hopefully not for same reason tho..)
Now ,the photos are not crap,youre too modest even self-effacing(?)...they are good! The new camera paid off...and youre SEEING better! Try a few tele shots ..close-ups using tel setting..out of focus is cool these days .Might even make it to Fine Art... Le Object Trouve a La Formulae Un.Le Dejeuner sur Le Pits... you might even be the Cartier-Bresson of F1!My fave photog ,Eliot Porter ,only started seriously in his mid-50s ...I rest my case! No more 'crap' photographer please. Cant wait for the night -race pix ...lights, camera , action stuff...

[Aaron James]

Ed, you don't like Hockenheim? Wow. It's one of my favourite places to go to.

If you can swing it, find some accommodation in Heidelberg, it's a short hop from the circuit and one of the most pleasant places in Western Germany.

[Alastair]

The drivers and the guys on the pit wall and in the garages are all part of the same team. If any one of them messes up, they all suffer. Kimi said that the decision to stay on worn tyres on Sunday was made by the pit wall, based on his pace on those tyres on a drying track (gaining rapidly on Lewis) and the chance that it might keep drying. He doesn't blame them for taking a gamble that might have put him on the top step of the podium any more than they blame him for losing the car on a damp patch and hitting Sutil at Monaco. F1 is a team sport, even though a lot of people think that the driver does all the work.

[Anon]

About Ferrari, today I read the first article which actually made me start believing Fernando is going to Maranello next year.

The article read like this:

1.) Santander, the Spanish bank that tends to follow Fernando, is going to Ferrari, it is reported (meaning, "we think but are not sure").
2.) Ferrari have a tendency to announce their drivers after the Italian GP.
3.) Fernando already said he will anounce his team after the Italian GP.
4.) Marc Gene said they would be happy to have Fernando along either Felipe or Kimi.

Not bad. Meanwhile, Fernando said something pretty intelligent when he said he wouldn't be disappointed to miss out on the podium this season and that he would instead focus on scoring points and getting Renault up to fourth spot. Maybe you guys have a different opinion, but I prefer that to "let's take risks and impale Nick with this two-million dollar Renault."

So, time to make the Ferrari scorecard, as Mr. Gorman wishes us to do.

Australia- Kimi has a dreadful race, so does Massa, who spins at the beginning. Both motors fail. I don't know whether the guys in the pits should take a hit for that (because that's a factory thing), so let's give them a point even
though two motors broke. (1,1,1)

Malaysia- Kimi- perfect. Massa spins. Team= perfect. (1,2,1)

Bahrain- everybody perfect. (1,2,1)

Spain- everybody perfect (1,2,1)

Turkey- Kimi gets beaten by Lewis on a Ferrari track, but can we really say it's a mistake? I don't think so. (1,2,1)

Monaco- Kimi is dreadful, Massa has a spin, and some might argue that the team strategy for Felipe sucked, but 1.) their strategy would have put Massa second if he didn't spin, and 2.) Lewis won because he crashed at just the right time, meaning Massa would have won if Lewis had been less lucky. So: point for Kimi, for Felipe, and none for the team. (2,3,1,)

Canada- Kimi is taken out by Lewis, can't really stop that (maybe he should have warned Lewis beforehand that it was red?). No points. Felipe's race is okay, only saved from the point because he had a great overtaking maneuvre. Team was OK I guess. (2,3,1) Overall bad day that can't be really blamed on someone I think. Compared to McLaren in Canada, things are just fine.

France- Massa is on the ball. Kimi too, but motor breaks. The team maybe should have called him in earlier to rip it off, but they also managed a one-two with a dying car. (2,3,1).

Britain- now it gets complicated. Felipe should be awarded a gazillion points for this race. Kimi lands a point, too. The team screws up Kimi's straetgy.

So: Kimi- three faults.
Massa- four fault.
Ferrari- two faults.

I would really say Massa is the weakest link. The team have been doing good, except for running some strategies which really don't get anywhere. but aren't bad mistakes.
Alonso, who only has made mistakes in Monaco and Canada (France being more the result of a sucky strategy aimed on taking pole that can be blamed on the team). In Canada, he kew he had to get past Heidfeld and pit if he wanted to get into the points, so sort of forgivable that he tried to run over Nick and get some space for his car. I don't count his bad start in France as a minus because then I could count Kimi in Monaco or Britain, for example. Monaco is a clear cut mistake.

Anyway, things are looking better than ever for Fernando to join Ferrari. We all know how Luca di Montezemolo has been kind in his words to Fernando, even saying he deserved to win last year's championship (not put that bluntly, but really close. Too old for me to dig up). Guess who came out saynig "no more mistakes" to Ferrari this morning. Yeah.

Maybe we will see Alonso replacing Massa, who would be in a tight spot. Maybe replacing Nick if he doesn't pick himself up at BMW, or maybe even Heikki at McLaren. Heikki would then go to Renault again? Sounds crazy. But this whole season has been crazy, so how will the silly season turn out? Probably will be one crazy silly season.

[Alastair]

Where will Massa go if Alonso goes to Ferrari?

And will Alonso accept being #2 to Kimi, or vice versa?

It's not so cut and dried, is it?

[Tim]

An interesting question about Ferrari. Traditionally, it has been de rigeur to question McLaren's organisation, tactics and even the engineering of the cars. However, in the wake of a tricky British GP where McLaren didn't put a foot wrong, it is now Ferrari who are beginning to look slightly amateurish.

It also has to be said, though, that motor races are always easy to predict with the benefit of hindsight, rather more difficult for a team when events are still unfolding. ITV's James Allen asked why Ferrari had not simply fuelled Kimi Raikkonen for a couple of laps longer at his first stop. I suspect this was because both cars came in on the same lap and, given that the fuel loads have to be pre-programmed into the fuel rig before the car stops, there simply wasn't time for Ferrari to observe what McLaren were doing and react accordingly. Ferrari's choice not to change Raikkonen's tyres was obviously the wrong decision and should really have been foreseen at the time, given that all the signs were for more rain - but it's never as clear cut in the heat of battle.

In terms of where this leaves Ferrari for the remainder of the year - I think the signs are encouraging, although it's very close to call. It appears as if the Italian team still has a slight speed advantage in races, even if it has difficulty unlocking this in qualifying. Of the three championship leaders, all tied on 48 points, Felipe Massa and Lewis Hamilton have won the most races (three apiece) with Raikkonen having taken the most points finishes (seven, compared to Hamilton and Massa's six each) including his two victories. Neither Ferrari driver has any points deficit to make up (unlike 2007) and the team has a big lead in the constructors championship. It seems that the Tifosi are virtually guaranteed at least one world title to celebrate this year.

In motor racing so much comes down to one component - the nut holding the wheel (or light bulbs, as Bernie once described them - screw one out, screw another in). 2008 has so far been characterised by costly mistakes from all of the front runners - e.g. Hamilton in Bahrain, Raikkonen in Monaco, Massa in Malaysia, etc. It's quite possible that the driver who makes the fewest mistakes from this point onwards will eventually take the title. So which of the top three has been responsible for the most mistakes, not including unreliability or strategy errors? In this respect there seems to be more cheer for Ferrari than may have been initially apparent. This is particularly true for Kimi Raikkonen. While hard race results are the only thing that counts, looking at what might have been had it not been for misfortune and/or team-induced problems is helpful when trying to predict future form. Looking at individual races so far this year (in a similar way but slightly differnt way to Anon):

Australia - Hamilton puts in a faultless drive to victory while Massa has a scrappy race and retires. Raikkonen has car problems in qualifying, forcing him to drive harder through the field and triggering a couple of mistakes before his engine fails. Hamilton and Massa's scores reflect the driver input, but Raikkonen's efforts should have seen him score a point or two more than he actually did (even allowing for his off track excursions).

Malaysia - Raikkonen takes an easy win, Massa spins out from second place and Hamilton has a slow pit stop which probably costs him a couple of points. Raikkonen and Massa's scores reflect their respective performances but McLaren's slow pitstop lost Hamilton a couple of points.

Bahrain - Hamilton has an awful race following his collision with Fernando Alonso, Massa and Raikkonen cruise to an easy one two. All three score a representative number of points.

Spain - Raikkonen takes an easy win with Massa secure in second and Hamilton driving well to take third. All three score a representative number of points.

Turkey - Massa wins from the stunning Hamilton and then Raikkonen. All three score a representative number of points.

Monaco - Hamilton takes a well deserved victory with Massa a decent third. Raikkonen suffers a penalty and then crashes into Adrian Sutil. All three score a representative number of points.

Canada - Hamilton makes a daft mistake and takes the blameless Raikkonen out of the race, losing the Ferrari driver a probable second place. Massa suffers slightly from the safety car and refuelling woes. Both Ferrari drivers should have scored more than they actually end, especially the luckless Raikkonen who probably lost 6-10 points through no fault of his or the team.

France - Massa takes an easy win over Raikkonen's limping car, while Hamilton struggles following his penalty from the previous race. Hamilton and Massa's scores reflect the driver input, but Raikkonen's efforts should have seen him score two more points than he actually did.

Great Britain - no one can touch Hamilton in the wet, Raikkonen puts in a good recovery drive after the tyre error and Massa is nowhere. All three score a representative number of points.

On three occasions Raikkonen has driven well but lost out through no fault of his own - not least Canada, which was outside of his or Ferrari's control and caused a significant loss of points. Massa deserved more than he got in Canada and Hamilton drove better than he scored in Malaysia. If these factors outside of Raikkonen's direct influence had gone differently, he could be looking at a comfortable championship lead by this point - around 10 points, perhaps. Massa and Hamilton have also suffered problems, but more of their own making - understandable for a driver in only his second year of F1, not quite so easy to explain for a driver who made his GP debut in 2002...

If I were a betting man I'd go for Raikkonen to take his second title. But, as with the stock market, past results do not guarantee future performance (and I doubt Hamilton will run another red light in the pits this year, which has heavily influenced his overall points position) and so I'm not a betting man. It's very close and almost impossible to call - we're in for a cracking finish to the season.

[javiervivaespania]

Several points are in order:
1) Montezemolo has said very clearly: I will not tolerate more mistakes.
Only Fernando Magic Alonso can be free of mistakes. He is unfailable if he has the car he deserves: the best one.

2) New engineering solutions are increasingly difficult to invent. Only Fernando has the knowledge and the power of will to put the car at the edge of its performance and to come up with new ideas and designs. Ferrari needs to remaing at the state of the art and therefore they need Fernando.

3) After having Schumacher, Ferrari needs to beat its own records. Living under the level set by Schumacher is not acceptable. Even having a pilot who can just match the German's achievements is not good enough. They need someone who can surpass Schumi's career. There is only one person on the planet who can do that.

4) Alonso is happy even if he is not winning. This is only possible if he knows that he will be at Ferrari next season.

All fits in!!!
I am already laughing!

[guille]

Javiervivaespaña...
You are too fanatic to be taken seriously!

[ELCROWLEY]

This year Alonso is earning TONS of veterany. TONS TONS. He fights on the middle of course (drivers starting in front of grid "don't do overtaking"), he squeeze his car to the maximum,....I'm looking forward to see him on a Ferrari.

Alonso has a verbal agree with Ferrari from last year. I keep saying it from last year. Alonso will try to get 4th enginer position for renault and the team will be happy with him.

[Gilbert]

The Ferrari situation is interesting.

Last season, after the departure of all the people who brought Ferrari back at the top, a lot of people thought a decline was inevitable.

Kimi ended up winning the championship so the same observers said the team was still the best. However, Kimi really only won because Ron Dennis mismanaged the Fernando/Lewis relationship.

This season has shown a fair amount of unreliability as well as driver and team errors.

Could it be that the good years gave the team enough momentum to win again last year but the loss of such brilliant people is now starting to show? Could it be that Ferrari is returning to the mess it was before Braun, Todt, Byrne et al?

If indeed this is what is developing, Fernando is in a really bad spot. He needs to leave Renault but are Ferrari's best years behind them? And with next year's new regulations who's to say that Honda is not the team of the future? Or could it be Team Willy? or Toyota?

And we thought Max had problems.;-)

[Felipe]

Gilbert, very well put. It really is a conundrum... like Alonso said earlier this year, whatever team I chose, there would always be a team doing better... or something like that.

I think it's funny that the thread is Ferrari problems, but it moves onto Alonso going to Ferrari...

To all those very excited about Alonso going to Ferrari, I would say lets wait and see. There is half a season left, and lots can happen between now and then...

[rubeniken]

Hey Gilbert! I'm 99% agree with you.
1% less is that Ferrari always have options to win the championship( is like Man.U or Real Madrid ), even when they have a bad season.

[colin grayson]

ferrari were also rans for a very long time ; somebody at the top of fiat got sick of this and made MS an offer he couldn't refuse ...which he accepted as long as he could put his own people in key positions , which was agreed

so he arrived with [ if my memory is correct ] 14 anglo's from the benetton team , who had helped him become world champion there ; the rest is history

how many of those people are still there ?

if alonso has any sense he will try and get a drive at honda ; honda has the money , and the will ; you don't think that ross brawn agreed to go there without full control , do you ; what he demands , he will get ...or be gone ; in my view back seat driving from japan has held this team back [ it must be hard not to when you are a major automotive manufacturer ];I for one wouldn't vote against him pulling honda out of the mud
reubens is nearing the end of his career , younger blood in needed for the future , button might have backed the wrong horse at honda , but I think his gamble will now pay off with the right man at the reins ;I think that the combination of button's smooth style with alonso's more aggressive temperament would work for the team ; funny how the careers of these two drivers are somehow interlinked , alonso getting the nod over button at renault [ if you were getting 20% of alonso or 0% of button who would you pick , both promising young drivers after all? ]
but , as the americans say , that's the way the cookie crumbles

crumbles ? oh yes , we were talking about ferrari , were we not? not too late , but it is often hard to say we were wrong , and reverse direction

[RichyS]

Javiervivaespaña, you are hilarious.

So 'Magic' Alonso never makes any mistakes? I seem to remember him sticking with worn out inters at the last GP. Looked like a pretty big mistake to me...

[Felipe]

The tyre thing has to be the team's mistake. How is Alonso going to predict rain from the seat of his car... stick his finger out and see if it will rain... Monaco is more indicative that Alonso can make mistakes.

[Verbal]

javiervivaespania...Hilarious is an understatement; engineering solutions, free of mistakes (silverstone, monaco, first half 2007) who are you trying to convince,

Gilbert, 51.3% I agree with you the Scuderia are missing their old hats, silverston was just one of many such examples. Kimi and Brawn could have been owesome, now what are the chances of Ross.B goming back home to Ferrari (wish full thinking there maybe) Anyway Gilbert this hose although faultering is by no means on its last legs, this team is comfortably leading the Manufacturers championship, perhaps a sign that at least in terms of driver pairing, theirs is the strongest.

[colin grayson]

felipe , I know that maybe if the team had any sense they wouldn't let alonso make any decisions , but as the only hope for him to get a good result at silverstone was for some dry running , that was what he asked for ; not stupid for him , might have worked , and he could have been there instead of reubens
but the truth is that he is not good enough to do a senna and get on the podium in this car without the special tyres and electronics ,not even by gambling on strategy ; they have to use the same tyres and electronics as everyone else so it won't happen; yes I know senna did it with the worst car on the grid but he had an extra something which merely good drivers don't have

however I notice that he is being made to give this up and drive as fast as he can for points ; he may be the chou -chou at renault but enough is enough even for them ; he destroyed his reputation by his behaviour last year and this year has been making it worse ; if he wants to get into one of the top teams , making the best of a middle ranked car is the way

even so , I notice he is preparing excuses in case he gets a better drive ....if I get into a top team there will always be a better one is a recent quote I understand ; no mention of his supposed ability in developing a car enabling renault to have a top car

[Felipe]

Colin, Whateva!!!

[colin grayson]

el crowley
the english have an expression ...a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it is written on

[El Ponso]

Hi Colin (Grayson),

I’ve enjoyed reading your comments for I think you are a knowledgeable F-1 follower and your comments on technical issues and strategy are rather interesting and instructive.
There are others here who contribute with their efforts to enlighten us on the more complicated things that involve this fascinating world that is F-1, Tim, Baena, Andy G. and others.
In an ideal world most of us would stick just to the average matters that relate to the sport itself, that is, driving. But this is not, and the guys with good will have long packed their suitcases and left.
I wouldn’t think for a moment to argue with you about your opinions on the races, tyres, etc. unless I need to clarify some aspects but then other bloggers raise the issue, you reply and I learn more, and so on. And I think, probably you agree, that this is what makes this blog a success. That, and the patience and hard work that Ed puts on it.
Then we might be in accordance or not with the threads, the opinions, decissions, etc. But the key for this blog is freedom, tolerance and respect.
One thing that I find is very negative here, as in life in general, is the grudges, the bitterness. And I must admit that I have allowed myself to be overcome by that ‘dark side’ that we all carry whithin on some ocassions. But in the end it solves nothing. Just to show the others that we are angry, because on no way could it mean that we are right.
Anyway, to get to the point. Is there any need that you carry on, and on, and on with this Fernando business? Yes I know, the anti Ham brigade never stops. Why, soon there’ll be songs on ‘Top of the Pops’ with these lyrics.
But if you think for a moment, the vast majority of this nasty comments, from both sides, have nothing or very little to do with F-1. They are mainly nationalistyc rants, rude and unintelligent, that look so much alike that one suspects they are all writen by the same idiot.
Of course you can have your own opinion and I’m not trying to change it, why should I?
But there are no doubt thousands of readers of this blog that are just that, readers who don’t participate but surely take good note of what we say here.
And with all due respect, to say of someone who’s known all over the world that he destroyed his reputation by his behaviour last year just because you feel like it, in a sort of happy go lucky fashion, well it’s up to you.
I’m not going to go through all that again, help me God. But for those anonymous readers of this blog who might be wondering, maybe because they don’t know what happened or they are just new fans of F-1, or whatever, it would be interesting to say that there were all sort of rumours going on about Fernando at the time. It was all on the lines of ‘it’s been said’, ‘its been rumoured’, ‘some people in Mac Laren are been reported to say…’ but not a single oficial statement from the horse’s mouth. Not even on the infamous blackmail issue.
On the other hand, there was a court hearing in which Ron Dennis, the chief of Mac Laren, was found guilty of cheating and had to pay a penalty of 100 million. What, how much? 100 million. You are joking, millions of what, pesetas? No darling, 100 million of dollars. (USA).
Anyway this feud is going to carry on even after both Fernando and Lewis have retired, but we can make it more bearable with less vile and a bit more humour.
I’m off to watch ‘Singing in the rain’.

Hasta luego.

[Insider who cannot be named]

Yes Colin, whatever!! You surprise me with your 'great' understanding of F1 and of Renault internal decisions. Stop talking rubbish and writing words coming of your own imagination and that do not, I repeat, DO NOT reflect the truth. And don't make a fool of yourself... I think by reading your post one can see where you come from...clever boy!

Get real!

Btw, how many teams would like to have Alonso? Most of them, my friend, most of them. Including Ferrari. Now, debate that and in 5 months (or before) all of us will have a laugh at you!

[Paul]

"So 'Magic' Alonso never makes any mistakes? I seem to remember him sticking with worn out inters at the last GP. Looked like a pretty big mistake to me..."

Stop kidding yourself Richy, he did that because the team told him it was not going to rain anymore, Ferrari told Kimi the same in case you forgot.

And Alonso was one of the only three to not make any mistakes/spins/going off road (Heidfeld and Barrichello being the other two).

[Anon]

Felipe: can't agree with you more about Colin: Whatever.

Verbal, if Fernando has been making mistakes this year, other people have been making gazillions of howlers. For example:

Lewis- Bahrain, Monaco (spins when others didn't. Works out in his favor, but still a mistake), Canada (a howler that would make Fernando have to quit racing), France (goes on the grass when even I knew that the FIA was screeching for drivers NOT to cut ANYthing.) Or Felipe:

Australia, Malaysia, Monaco, Britain (a gazillion times).

Fernando:

Monaco

Now, if you dissect his last three races, you'll see that in Canada,
he had to get pass Heidfeld, burn out his last fuel fast and then pit. So if he failed to get past Heidfeld QUICK, he would be out of the points. But you know what, we're going to count it as a mistake for fun.

France: bad strategy, Renault abvisouly wanted pole in front of their home crowd, like in Spain, Caught in traffic. No single mistake though.

Britain: Despite what Mr. Grayson may say, being Senna does not mean you must finish on podium in a car that shouldn't be there AND that is on the wrong tires. Fernando chose a strategy based on a wrong weather report. Maybe it would have worked. Very good rain driving, he even doesn't slip like Lewis once did. Oh, Colin, is Rubens Senna? Oh, and when was the last time Lewis drove a car that couldn’t make it on podium?

So,

Lewis: four mistakes
Felipe: four mistakes
Fernando: two mistakes.

[Felipe]

El Ponso, my thoughts exactly, I just wouldn't of been able to put it in such a nice, polite and concise manner.

[IDR]

Today appear in the Spanish press (not Marca or As, serious one ABC):

Banco Santander will leave McLaren Sponsorship (20 M€ yearly) at the end of their current agreement (2009) and they will joint Ferrari, starting in 2010.

One of the biggest markets for Banco Santander is Brasil, so...

2010 Ferrari drivers will be: F Alonso and F Massa?

[colin grayson]

oh dear , looks like I can , at the same time ,upset the alonso fans [ best drive of the year at silverstone , strategy his best chance to get on podium ] , no doubt the hamilton fans [ his dominance at silverstone not as good as it looked , good decisions by team contributory ] , what about the massa fans [ not his fault at silverstone ] , kimi fans [ strategy chimped by ferrari and ...well why go on

shows I must be getting something right if you are ALL against me , lol

btw , IDR , banco santander own a major bank in the uk , and switched all their advertising to the hamilton brand I notice

btw , as you will observe from my posts I am not actually a hamilton fan ,he is still a beginner with plenty to learn in my view, but if you were to ask all the teams which driver they would choose to have between hamilton and alonso I venture to suggest that their choice would be the same as McL [ with support from mercedes I am given to understand ]
anyone who thinks uncle ron would put his personal preference for a driver before the good of his beloved team [ and that mercedes would allow it ] ....well, words fail me ! in the oft quoted words of the mafia ....it's only business

[Weasel]

I see that this thread has been hijacked by the pro Alonso rabble (that would be you 'JaviervivaAlonso') into an echo of last year's nationalistic slanging match.

Facts are that this thread is about:

1). Ferrari - now and the rest of this season (2008). Read it again if that point escapes you.

2). Alonso drives for Renault (that is not Ferrari for those of you who are confused) in 2008 and maybe 2009.

So can we get back on track please?

[Felipe]

Great contribution Weasel, think your thoughts on the thread are thoughtful and accurate.

[Paul]

BREAKING NEWS, EVEN AUTOSPORT CONFIRMS IT

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/69061

SCUDERIA FERRARI-SANTANDER IN 2010

HAM LOVERS, ENJOY THIS AND NEXT YEAR AS HE WON'T WIN A RACE AFTER 2010

FORZA ALONSO.

[Adele]

When I last checked the points Ferrari was still ahead. So they are doing alright.

Luca di Montezemolo had to give them a public "spanking" the Italian press where calling for it.

That is how it goes if they have a good race, everyone will again think they are best.

[McCheets]

ADELE

Spot on. Ferrari is leading constructors' championship fairly comfortably in spite of the erros that have been made.

It is interesting to note that nobody talks about Jenson Button anymore. The relative levels of interest in the Honda and McLaren 'garages' at Goodwood yesterday said it all. A fair few F1 fans seem to be even more fickle than the media.

[Derek Smith]

I wouldn’t go OTT about a bank supporting a team in these somewhat difficult times.

Ferrari were just a run of the mill team up until the Ross/Mschey/et al period. Up until 1999 they had managed to have just seven of their drivers on the top step at the end of the season, and this despite them being the richest team in the pitlane for much of that period. And two of those were when the sport was run to F2 rules and Ferrari were the only team with a competitive car. In comparison, Williams have also had seven champions and their first wasn’t until 1980. Indeed, in the 20 years following the fabulous Jodi Scheckter in 1979 there was no Ferrari champion despite them having some of the best drivers on the grid. Whilst I accept that at least one member of the Ferrari ‘team’ is still in post, although one wonders for how long, Ferrari are still struggling against a team that has a considerably lower budget – even before one takes into account the $100 million.

There was a statement from Ferrari a little while ago saying that they were going to go for an all Italian team. I bet there was rejoicing down the pitlane at that.

F1 is not all about money. You can’t buy a driver’s championship. Ferrari have proved that time and time again. Further, one wonders just how much money a bank will have to spare by 2010.

And to Adele, Ferrari are not ahead. They are level with the McLaren driver. There is only one championship, and that's the drivers'. Who cares about the manufacturers' championship apart from the team managers, and I bet they would still prefer their driver to win.

[Anon]

Hmm. Santader switch seems to be set. For 2010, because the McLaren deal lasts until the end of '09. Which means Alonso could join in '09 and Santander would catch up later. They just want to avoid having to break the contract.

But we must wait after the Italian GP.

Weasel: relax man. If the idea that Alonso may soon be driving for Ferrari troubles you, maybe you should stop watching F1. Considering Mr. Gorman is on vacation, I think we have pretty good leverage to go on about a Ferrari-related subject. Oh, and if you so much want to stay on topic, maybe you should set the example. You haven't said anything on this thread.

[McCheets]

DEREK SMITH

I am surprised that somebody with your level of F1 knowledge has said that even team managers would prefer their driver to win - you clearly have forgotten the Frank Williams philosophy, and the modus operandi that was in effect up until fairly recently at McLaren, where the team matters above all else.

One has to wonder if Ron is getting a cut from Hamilton's personal deals.

[Anon]

Derek Smith: what you say aboutthe championships is true (even though I think you exagerrate slightly). Ferrari wants their drivers to win the championship and it would be really good if they brought home the constructor's too.

Being an Alonso fan, I'm hoping Lewis wins the championship. That way, the Ferrari drivers will look really bad as they are in a slightly better car. It would easily make Luca di Montezemolo regret not signing Alonso if that is the case, or really want to sign him.

But if after the Italian GP, it is announced for example, that Alonso replaces Massa, I would hope Kimi wins so that he would feel OK if Alonso beat him at his first season at Ferrari, which would easily be possible.

But anyway, I'm wondering if the McLaren isn't the best car on the grid now. I mentioned my thoughts before the Brit GP when Lewis set a test time 8/10s of a sec faster than his pole lap last year. Which made me wonder the progress McLaren made. THe race only further confirmed that. Considering they soundly defeated Ferrari on a Ferrari track, this isn't good news for Maranello. Ferrari have one advantage over McLaren if McLaren are better, and that is that Heikki is so far behind and seems to be able to do nothing about it.

[Derek Smith]

Anon,

'Best car' is a bit of a vague quality. I think it was the best car on the grid in the rain on a fast circuit like Silverstone. It uses its tyres in a way that probably generates heat in such situations. I'm a McLaren fan and like LH but I don't think he's a minute faster than the next best.

I wonder just how close the Ferrari would have been if it had stayed dry for the race. Kimi's abilities are beyond question. Massa is a bit of an imponderable. At the start of this season he threw the car at the barriers with an abandon that was inspiring in a way and then, all of a sudden it seemed, he began to really impress - well, me at least. I like it when a driver surprises me, and Massa seems like a genuine chap.

On race day friends and I 'vote' for who we expect to finish in a particular position, for the Brit GP it was 3rd. I picked Massa and one mate was upset that I got in before him as it was his choice as well. He knows what he's talking about so I thought I stood a good chance. So I can't help thinking there must have been something about the setup of Massa's car to put him so far off the pace. I know he's no big fan of dampness but even so.

Heikki is something of a surprise to me. I expected greater things, especially after his early promise.

I'd like to see Massa in a McLaren despite the fact that two youngsters in one team doesn't often work. My feeling is that he'd respond well to some strong guidance, and development is what McLaren seems to do well.

On the subject of DC, I must admit to thinking that if Hakkinnen and DC were in my team I'd have a favourite as well. Mika was phenominal. With just a little more application he could have been one of the greats but he gave the air, on the track as well as off, of not being particularly bothered. Mind you, it kept him sane, at least compared to other drivers, so perhaps it was a decent trade-off.

DC had some good races, especially around the 2000/2001 era, but then seemed to go off the boil. Some say he didn't get the breaks but a seat in the McLaren seems a pretty good break to me.

I think the Ferrari is a better car by some distance on some circuits and in certain weather. The championship is, if not wide open, then in as exciting a position at this point in the season as I can remember, at least in the last 30 years, with four and possibly five in with a decent shout.

Let's hope Mosely doesn't mess it all up again.

[Anon]

About the two cars: I guess I'm lucky to be at Hockenheim in a few days, because it will definitely be the turning point in the season, much like Canada last year when Lewis broke away. With three drivers tied for the lead, it is bound to be interesting. I don't know why, but I have this strange feeling Nick will win his country's home GP. I simply have no idea but I can see him doing it. Otherwise, my bet is on Kimi, as it has been in France and britain. Maybe if I stop betting on him he'll win.

Massa remains one of the most con troversial drivers for me. Along with Lewis and Fernando, he is probably the hbardest driver to analyze. What I think is his worst fault is a lack of personality. If he had a more distinctive trademark character like Fernando, Lewis, or Kimi, we could see his mistakes more as mistakes rather than signs of bad driving and weakness. What I'm saying is, he just doesn't look solid. He has one joker up his hand though: if it goes down to the wire, he wins in Brazil. He is simpy unbeatable there.

I'm going to be sitting at one of the turns which is the easiest to overtake on, the last one before the long start/finish straight. Hopefully I'll see some overtaking maneuvres. And, thank god, there is a TV screen across the track so I can get most of the action! If I must predict (ouch):

Kimi
Nick
Lewis
Robert
Felipe
Heikki
Fernando
Jarno

No idea why. Good day chap!

[Verbal]

Funny how between the Mclaren and Ferrari the common belief is which ever car is in front is the better Car (forget the driver) yet with the Renault on good days its always the driver and on bad days its the Car or the team.

Anways another page on the Spygate saga, McLaren have agreed to settle out of court and compansate Ferrari fully (Insider what say yee)
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43324

[GP]

The discussion whether the Ferrari or the McLaren is the best car in the context of the British GP is, in my opinion, misguided and useless. This was a perfect opportunity for the drivers to count so much more than their cars in terms of the final results. Would Barrichello have finished on the podium in a dry race? Or is the Honda a front runner now?

How may times have we heard that rain is the great equalizer is motor racing? In a wet race the driver is able to make a huge difference and more than make up for his car's characteristics, especially in this case where the difference between the two top cars is very small. Consequently, at the British GP, whether it was McLaren over Ferrari, or vice versa, the better wet wheather driver would more than make up that small difference.

As Jackie Stewart and many others have said, LH is the dominant wet wheather driver of his time. It's that simple. A driver, say Massa, can be extremely quick in the dry and at the same time be a very poor driver in the wet. In the wet, the driver simply can't get away with a lack of finesse and technique, whereas in the dry the aerodynamics and mechanical grip will make up for a driver's weaknesses.

If the German GP were run the same day twice, once in the dry and once in the wet, I could easily see Massa winning the dry race and LH putting another minute on everybody in the wet one, with Massa spinning his way to last place.

I think it's time to stop saying of Massa that he is a young driver. He may have boyish looks but he's been around F1 for a good many years now to the point that he should be treated as a veteran.

[colin grayson]

el ponso ,
my apologies , I seem to have missed your post addressed to me , and in general terms agree with the sentiments expressed therein

however you seem to be under a misapprehension that I am anti alonso ;in reality there is no truth in that , I rate him as one of the small band of top drivers in F1

however you disagree with me when I say he has been destroying his reputation ; well ,near the end of last year his agent issued a statement that he would be staying at McL ; shortly afterwards he was gone with a no comment from either side agreement ; ok , both sides say it didn't work out , but I think that we had all worked that out , had we not?
if you think that getting rid of alonso was down to uncle ron , just consider that daimler benz is the major shareholder in McL ; no way does a decision like that get taken without their decision as to what is best for their corporate image ;sponsors have to be consulted ; even chief executives like ron have bosses ; another english expression for you ...he who pays the piper calls the tune

and this year alonso has not been enhancing his reputation either , silverstone being the latest example ; however since my post I see a statement from him on the subject , that he will now drive for the good of the team and try to get renault into 4th place in the championship ....looks to me like renault have spoken !they must be sick of comments about how bad their car is , which it isn't ...not top three but best of the rest looks possible ; as I pointed out elsewhere , it has been harder for them than for anyone else to adapt to this years regs ...give them time

so hopefully by the end of the year this nonsense will have been forgotten and we won't get any more comments from team principals that they wouldn't want disruptive influences like him in their team ; that he will have demonstrated that he can be a team player , essential for any F1 team

but wait a minute , if you think I am biased , why did you not say I shouldn't make comments about hamilton like ....he wasn't as good as he looked at silverstone or .... he still has lots to learn ?

or that I am puffing up massa ....what happened at silverstone wasn't his fault etc

or anti heikki ...he should have been able to get on the podium at silverstone

and I could go on

if you look a lot of my comments are to refute some piece of nonsense that someone else has posted , normally through bias or ignorance

having spent my career working for a company which was involved in F1 I have following it since before most of the other people who follow this blog were born .....have seen all this before ...your chou chou alonso is a class driver , and lets hope he can be seen back near the top very soon ; one thing hasn't changed over the years ...the best way to get a better drive is to get good results in a car that isn't the fastest ; but I would hate to have to make a decision as to whether a team will be competitive next year if they offered me a drive ...I notice alonso is quoted as saying that what ever team he drives for there will always be a better one !

[Derek Smith]

Quote from Colin Grayson: ". . . Alonso is quoted as saying that whatever team he drives for there will always be a better one!"

Could that be, perhaps, that he knows he'll never drive for McLaren again? Just a thought.

[GP]

@colin grayson,

Mercedes Benz is not the major share holder of McLaren. They do not have a majority when it comes to voting. Ron Dennis, Mansour Ojeh, and the Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company together hold more shares than M-B. But this is neither here nor there because other than both sides (Alonso and McLaren) saying things didn’t work out, we don’t know more than that and saying or implying something else is pure speculation.

You say you’ve been around for a long time, so let me ask you: why is it that you write like a teenager texting his 14 year old mate? Bad grammar, bad spelling, bad punctuation. Like you said, ignorance and English expressions…

Oh, and Renault having problems with the rules? That was last year.

[colin grayson]

gp , the major shareholder in a company is the one that holds the biggest number of shares ; last time I looked daimler benz owned 40% , more than enough to control the company ...unless you think every other shareholder is going to vote against them .... hardly likely ,especially as ron owns 15% ; you are referring to a majority shareholder , who owns more than 50% of the shares

sorry my spelling and punctuation don't meet with your high standard' s ; I admit that I don't bother too much about my spelling and also that I am not much of a typist ....don't bother with a spell check either ; but I do TRY to be punctilious about grammar and punctuation in so far as it changes the sense of what one says ....THAT seems to me to be important ; as you purport to be an expert , perhaps you would be kind enough to point out some of my more glaring errors ...never too old to learn you know !just a little surprised you that find it neccessary to stoop to personal insults ; or perhaps you find it acceptable

with regard to the alonso / McL affair , I am interested to know what I quoted other than that both sides said it didn't work out ? sounds like you agree with that ; his agent's statement that he had decided to stay is a matter of public record ...but he left the team nonetheless , and the team kept hamilton ; you don't think that DB disagreed with that , do you ? that their 40% counted for less than ron's 15% ?

as our colonial cousins say ...get real

regarding ..renault having problems with the rules ...when did I say that ? ; I said that renault was the team most disadvantaged by the rule changes , hardly the same thing !!and of course you are in error anyway , they lost the electronics this season ...or perhaps you think heikki scored better last season than alonso has this year because he is a better driver ...you are , of course , entitled to hold that opinion

[GP]

Dear colin grayson,

When one writes:

“if you look a lot of my comments are to refute some piece of nonsense that someone else has posted , normally through bias or ignorance”

One has to expect scrutiny and to be taken to task, wouldn’t you say? And is it not a little rude, Colin?

As to McLaren. 40% is not a majority. Given that the decision making process regarding Alonso’s departure was never made public, any statement on the matter would not be factual and therefore somewhat biased, no?

“ok , both sides say it didn't work out , but I think that we had all worked that out , had we not?”

Worked out what? More biased speculation?

“I notice alonso is quoted as saying that what ever team he drives for there will always be a better one !”

I don’t know what you mean here. I understood Alonso’s comments to mean that selecting a team that would be a front runner next year is far from a sure bet. Did you have a different (biased) interpretation?

“regarding ..renault having problems with the rules ...when did I say that ? ;”

Well, here’s what you wrote in your previous post:

“as I pointed out elsewhere , it has been harder for them than for anyone else to adapt to this years regs ...”

I would appreciate your pointing out where Renault stated that they had electronics problems. Every Renault statement I’ve read about their lack of performance referred to aerodynamics and mechanical grip (e.g. the mass damper ban).

Colin, I’ll leave you with the words of the great American novelist, Kurt Vonnegut.

“Why should you examine your writing style with the idea of improving it? Do so as a mark of respect for your readers, whatever you're writing. If you scribble your thoughts any which way, your readers will surely feel that you care nothing about them. They will mark you down as an egomaniac or a chowderhead --- or, worse, they will stop reading you.”

[Derek Smith]

A small point: Colin said the Merc was a major shareholder in McL and at 40% there can be little argument against it.

However, I would assume that there is some contractual demarcation between the team manager and the shareholders. Merc make certain decisions and, no doubt, have some form of forum where they can put their concerns, but Ron makes, and is responsible for, certain others.

I have no idea of where the lines are drawn but the day to day running of the team is probably entirely down to Ron. The paint job on the car would, I assume, have a major input from Merc. That would be the only way to run a team. Too many bosses in situations where instant decisions have to be made is a recipe for disaster.

I would assume that Ron is the final arbiter on who he has in his team. Anything else emasculates him. However, I would assume that Merc would put their point of view and expect it to be considered and, if rejected, be informed of the reasons.

Whilst all the above is speculation, I think the odds are for that sort of arrangement.

The question arises: did Ron want Alonso to remain?

If it was me in charge of such a team and one of my crew not only cheated and put the very existence of the team at risk, but then became the major prosecution witness against us, I would have called the taxi myself. If you add onto that the way RD was ‘informed’ of his cheating by Alonso, I would have made him walk to the railway station. Alonso’s lasting legacy to Mclaren was the £50m hole in the budget.

But Ron has kept de la Rosa on board so one would assume he has the capability to forgive transgressions.

The strength of McLaren, and Ferrari in the Ross days, was that the team made the decisions without having to put it to a board meeting. But I cannot see Ron being able to make non operational strategic decisions, at least those having a major affect on possible results, not to mention the sponsors, without at the very least considering the needs of the major shareholder and sponsors. The decision to dump their No. 1 driver must surely have been taken under advice, if not instruction. Santander must have had some form of input. The fact that they are leaving McL at the end of next season would tend to indicate that their view was less than overwhelming.

Alonso would not have wanted to move to a second rate team for a whole year even if the Ferrari option was signed and in his pocket. So I would assume it was forced on him.

If, as seems likely, his move to Ferrari next season is announced at Monza, I will be quite surprised. I would have thought that Kimi would have some kind of paragraph in his contract which allowed him some say in who his team mate would be, even if it is just a number 2. Further, as Alonso himself said, he was treated equally with LH at McL last season and this upset him. Kimi is quality. He’s not some rookie. Alonso has a fight on his hands if he does run alongside him. There could be a lot of fun next season, at least for spectators.

For my tuppence: Ron dumped Alonso (or let him go for Alonso fans) only after seeking the views of the other shareholders, including the major one, and the sponsors. My guess is that he was not fully supportive of Santander’s point of view, hence their move away.

I accept this is speculation, but there is a degree of logic to it which, whilst it might not be overwhelming, is persuasive.

[McCheets]

GP

Let us not forget who was the driving force behind the mass-damper ban, not Ferrari as the British media wanted us to believe, but McLaren.

[McCheets]

Interesting article that Ed wrote at the end of last year.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article3054314.ece

[McCheets]

“McLaren has also agreed to the reimbursement of Ferrari’s costs and expenses relating to these matters and a concluding payment."

If McLaren did nothing wrong, and, as some say, Ferrari was actually to blame, why would (presumably) Ron have agreed to the aforementioned actions? Perhaps McLaren concluded that the FIA isn't the only organisation that would consider them guilty and hit them with a hefty punishment?

Quite some time has passed since this announcement was made, and none of Ron's allies here has come to the fore. In fact, the silence would suggest that some of the more erudite members of this forum were oblivious to this information.

[McCheets]

No mention of McLaren's statement on the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes official website. Is this a manifestation of a guilty conscience?

[Verbal]

GP and Derek Smith I can see you are both tryin to make a point but

1) do not confuse Share holders controlling interest with the management structure just as in any public company
the CEO - Ron Denis in this case has responsiblitiy for day to day runing of the Mclaren Group. SHare holder decide on the management structure and leave it there to run

2) Mclaren did NOT let Alonso go, Alonso asked to be released from his contract this fact is well publicised. If you were in FA's shoes would you have stayed in that sort of atmosphere...

3) Clearly you are on of those pple that believe Ropn is innocent and its all FA and De la Rosas fault.

4) Santander moving to Ferrari is neither here nor there, Vodaphone switched after years with Ferrari, to Mclaren. Santander is a huge multi-national bank they wont be swayed by an individual who's image is arguably tarnished anway.
Remember
a-Santander sponsor the British not the Spanish GP
b-Why aren't sandander at Renault with FA if they are following him
c-Ferrari generally announce their line up well in advance and we also know all their drivers have contracts for 2009

I'm not completly dismissing the FA link to ferrari but I dont think it can be taken as read

[GP]

DEREK SMITH,

We are in agreement about the running of the team and who makes the decisions, regardless of shareholding. After all, if Mercedes decided to leave Peter Sauber’s team to go with McLaren they obviously thought the latter gave them a better chance of success. I’m sure the MB decision makers are smart enough to realize that RD knows how to run an F1 team better than they can. Like Bernie makes all the operational decisions for CVC. MB’s business is to build and sell road cars so their focus is on that, not on who’s doing what in Woking. (remember the story about a Ford board meeting in Detroit where a board member asked “Who is this fellow Eddie Irvine that I see is the company’s second highest paid employee?”) Having said that, as you say, anything that has to do with the image of MB would require their input, as well as that of the major sponsors.

As to the specific Alonso departure, your point of view, as I understand it, is more McLaren/MB centric. What if we took a more Alonso-centric point of view? When Alonso signed his contract with McLaren (December 2005 if my memory is correct), Hamilton was just out of F3 on his way to GP2. Logically, Alonso, as a two time world champion, had to expect to be treated as such. It could therefore be said that when Alonso saw that Hamilton was treated as RD’s third son he just wanted the hell out. How else would a two time champion react? Alain Prost said that RD had mismanaged the situation and believes that if Alonso had been treated differently he would have clinched the championship well before Brazil.

There was also a recent statement by Bernie who covered just that aspect of the McLaren/Alonso relationship. He said something to the effect that “I would love to know if, as a two time champion, Alonso had it in his contract that he would be the number one driver, or he just assumed that he would be treated as such.”

On the other hand, I have to disagree with your following statement: “If it was me in charge of such a team and one of my crew not only cheated and put the very existence of the team at risk, but then became the major prosecution witness against us, I would have called the taxi myself. If you add onto that the way RD was ‘informed’ of his cheating by Alonso, I would have made him walk to the railway station. Alonso’s lasting legacy to Mclaren was the £50m hole in the budget.”

Alonso told RD of his role in the spying affair after Hamilton did not follow orders in Q3 in Hungary (which led to Alonso’s retaliatory delay in the pit box). This exchange took place in the privacy of the McLaren motorhome. It is RD himself who chose to inform Mosley that there was more to the spying affair. MM then forced the drivers (Alonso and De La Rosa) to reveal what they knew by offering them immunity. So I find your judgment of Alonso to be unfair, especially, as you mention, RD kept De La Rosa who was the connection to Mike Coughlan and Nigel Stepney.

As far as an employee putting your company at risk, Jonathan Neale most probably bears the greatest responsibility after Mike Coughlan. He completely underestimated the potential gravity of what Coughlan was doing. Had he been proactive the whole affair would have been avoided.

[Tim]

Verbal - a couple of things to throw into the mix on your fourth point.

You asked why Santander did not follow Alonso to his present team. Two possible reasons come to mind, both contractual. Firstly, Renault's title sponsor is ING, another global bank in the same sort of business as Santander. F1 sponsors don't tend to be too keen on sharing the same platform as their competitors - as Michele Albereto (who had personal sponsorship from Marlboro) found out in 1989 when Tyrell acquired some Camel money. Secondly, it may well be the case that Santander is tied into a multi-year deal with McLaren and can't remove itself from this without incurring substantial penalty clauses. Just a thought.

The Santander announcement is interesting, but I agree with you that it doesn't necessarily mean a Ferrari/Alonso deal is signed and sealed. After all, Lewis Hamilton has been heavily associated with the Abbey brand (owned by Santander) in the UK and I understand the intention is to rebrand Abbey as Santander at some point.

So perhaps it's a sign that Lewis has signed a Ferrari deal...

[McCheets]

GP

There are some who claim that Bernie was shown the contents of Alonso's exchanges with de la Rosa on Alonso's Blackberry, via a third party who happens to be a prominent figure in F1. And that it was this action which led to the second FIA hearing. I am yet to read or hear about anybody denying this claim.

McLaren would love us to believe that it was their honesty and integrity which led to the second FIA hearing, but given the history of McLaren's responses regarding the Stepney/Coughlan affair should they be believed?

[GP]

McCheets,

I don't see it as a case of McLaren wanting us to believe in their sainthood. If you think back to the actual events and how it played out I don’t see it as a self serving exercise on the part of McLaren.

If you recall, RD was quite upset after Alonso held up LH in the pits. Remember when he threw down his headphones? Evidently there was a heated exchange in the McLaren motorhome after Q3. It is at that time that Alonso told RD about the exchange of emails that took place between himself, De La Rosa and Coughlan (who was in contact with Stepney). Rather than being blackmailed by Alonso RD went straight to Mosley to tell him what he had just heard. This course of events was made public so I don’t see how it could be a PR exercise on the part of McLaren. I think it’s more of a case where RD said to Alonso something like “You think you can push me around? Well, just watch me.”

[Derek Smith]

With regards to RD's stewardship of McLaren and the ethics he has brought to the team, a friend of mine worked for Courtaulds, McLaren sponsors, and said that his word could be trusted. There was never any aggro with the lawyers after a handshake. Whilst it was never said outright, the implication was that this was not the norm.

Further, from someone who has met him:

www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=32744

Mike Lawrence is a well respected journalist and whilst I do not agree with everything he writes, he is always worth reading.

[McCheets]

GP

I am not sure that your account of events (re: conversation between RD/Alonso) are quite correct.

[JoseBelgica]

Derek:
Ron Dennis dumped Alonso ? Are you kidding us? The fact is that Alonso was is a team that was competing against him. Do you remember the sentence "We are racing against Fernando and not Kimi". Does it rings a bell to you?
The fact that he moved to a 2nd line team means that he could handle that hypocrisy any more and come back to a team that love and loved him. Besides, Renault is wining a lot of Publicity because Alonso is there. Plus the extra money.

So you still believe that Alonso cheated? I guess that was Ron Dennis decision to copy the blueprints coming from Ferrari. You should ask yourself, why wasn't Alonso punished but Mclaren did?

Another thing, why suddenly Ferrari and Mclaren have close the issue (Spy) on court ?
My guess, basically Mclaren allowed Kimi to win last year at last race. (Hamilton pushing the wrong button) Gentlemen's deal. I give you the title, you close the Spy case, and everybody happy. :-)

[McCheets]

JoseBelgica

Further to your comments about Stepney/Alonso, I find it very hard to believe that whatever information de la Rosa had was only being used to improve the performance of one McLaren.

No McLaren supporter is commenting on McLaren's out-of-court settlement. Why could that be????

[Bruce]

Given all the bellicose nationalism from the Spanish last year with the boycott of everything German and British. I think you brits (and germans) should seriously consider boycotting Spain and in particular Santander and its products (Nationwide and soon to be Alliance And Leicester).

[Derek Smith]

Jose,

You ask if I remember the quote: ‘We are racing against Fernando . . .’

This has given rise to intense speculation as to its meaning but I took it at the time, and still do, to mean that LH’s closest competitor was not KR but FA. I can see little argument for the great conspiracy theory.

You ask why McLaren was punished. Indeed, this is the big question. Despite the FiA sorting through the data equivalent of 7.5 million sheets of A4 paper, dissecting 20 or so computers and interviewing umpteen McLaren staff, no evidence was found of Ferrari information. The only persons who had the info were Coughlan, de la Rosa and FA. There was never any suggestion of the 780pp document being in the possession of McLaren corporate.

Alonso was given absolution for his sins by Max Rufus Mosley when he took on pope mode in what many feel was an attempt to get some dirt on RD and McLaren.

I’ve worked on a few major incidents where we could not have funded 10% of that work. I am satisfied that if the FiA could not, after investing so many resources, find anything, then it wasn’t there. I think one has to accept that McLaren corporate were not cheating. Individual memebers of staff were, but it was not known of or condoned by the company.

When considering why McLaren were punished, and with the biggest fine ever in F1 history, you should also consider that there were two other teams in the pit lane, one where staff have been arrested and charged with industrial espionage, the other with McLaren technical information, where there wasn’t even an investigation.

Why indeed were McLaren punished.

There was a lovely quote from one of the lawyers representing one of the Michelin teams, who was brought into a meeting after the Indy debacle. On leaving he said that it was the first time any of his clients had been found guilty without ever being charged. If this is the level of the courts then perhaps the question is answered.

Kangeroo burger anyone?

You also ask why Ferrari are no longer proceeding with their threat to prosecute McLaren in a criminal court. Another good question. It is unlikely to be that Ferrari are doing it for the good of the sport.

There is a book waiting to be published on the Stepneygate issue.

If you read the report of the Stepneygate enquiry by the FiA you will see that the only people there was a prima facie case against for cheating or a breach of trust was Stepney, Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso. In the summing up, the report says of McLaren’s defence: we do not believe it. I can find no evidence adduced to support this disbelief.

I would also point out that McLaren would have been required to admit their guilt after the FiA’s (Mosley’s) finding and punishment. That is a necessity. They had no option but to apologise and agree. Yet the statement by the McLaren CEO was anything but. It was so conditional that it was hilarious. I’ve sat on some discipline boards and if there had been a finding of guilt and the person had issued such a qualified acceptance, they would have had their punishment increased. I think the tactic was a stupid risk and could have cost McLaren its acceptance for 2008 but it was probably done under legal advice and has been proved a valid risk.

Don’t forget also that Mosely said post enquiry that he did not believe that McLaren corporate were aware of the data.

You have to accept that Alonso did cheat. He admitted he did and the FiA’s report says he did. There are records of text messages to support this. You are tilting at windmills in trying to paint him as innocent.

[Statement From Ferrari]

JoseBelgica:

No agreement was made to allow Kimi's WDC title. Your information is wrong and misleading. Kimi won fair and square.

As a matter of fact, McLaren tried very hard to win the title based on alledged fuel temperature irregularities in tnree cars.

And yes, McCheets, Ferrari's technology was being used in both Mclaren cars (at least attempts were made).

There is a black print that will never reach public domain. Not at this moment in time. Maybe in the future.

Regards

[GP]

MCCHEETS,

That's my recollection. Although I've kept copies of the FIA transcripts, unfortunately, I haven't kept any records of what I wrote above but it was on all the websites.

DEREK SMITH,

I agree with you about Ron Dennis. I once met a Saudi man who was doing business with TAG and Mansour Ojeh and also met RD. He did say that RD's integrity was beyond question. Ron's problem is that with a thousand employees there is no way to control what everyone is doing at any given time. When somebody like Coughlan or Neal screw up he gets the blame as the top man. Also, the fact that he has people working for him since the beginning of MP4 shows that he is an honorable man.

JoseBelgica,

I think you're dreaming in technicolour if you think McLaren gave Kimi the championship. Get yourself a double espresso! ;-)

[JoseBelgica]

McCheets:

You are right, the "cheating affair" involved both drivers, Alonso and Hamilton. But only Alonso seems to carry with the burden of guiltyness. Maybe because he is not Britton? ;-)

Besides, I still do not believe that there are people around the F1 fans population who really think that ALL this cheating was plot orchestrated by Alonso! Secondly if Pedro de la Rosa was also guilty, how is it possible that he is still working for MClaren? Unless, he was receiving orders TO USE that information ??

"There is something stinking in Denmark"

[adam]

Paul, it was Alonso's own decision not to to change the tyres at the first pit stop.You can hear his engineer talk about it here:

http://www.ing-renaultf1.com/en/binaries/angleterre_EN_tcm3-75416.mp3

A fundamental error that lead Alonso finishing 1 minute 56 secs behind Hamilton.In fact if the race had been a bit longer he would of been lapped twice !

[Derek Smith]

I'm a bit of a lip reader and this is what I've picked up from the the pictures of their meeting.

Stefano Domenicali: Hi, Anthony. Been meaning to ask you. D’you know of any vacancies going at McLaren?

Anthony Hamilton: Well, I’m told there might be a vacancy for a driver alongside Lewis.

S.D.: Not really what I’m after. Any chance Ron might go at the end of the year?

A.H.: Aren’t you happy at Ferrari?

S.D.: I’ve upset them. It was silly really, just a throwaway line in interview that put them all against me.

A.H.: I thought you took a big risk in dropping the case against McLaren.

S.D.: No. It wasn’t that. It was when I said that Ferrari wanted to put aside the bitterness and hoped for a rancour-free battle on the track against McLaren. That was bad enough but I think I could have got away with it but then, for some reason, I made the biggest mistake of my life.

A.H.: What even worse than the setup for the cars at Sliverstone?

S.D.: Much, much worse. I cringe when I think about it. I said that Ferrari had made the decision in the interests of Formula 1.

A.H.: No!

S.D.: Yes, I know. Stupid or what? No one talks to me now. They trying to get the pope to excommunicate me.

[McCheets]

JOSEBELGICA

You are right - it was the two Spaniards (de la Rosa and Alonso) who were to blame! A noble Englishman would never do such a thing!

[McCheets]

DEREK SMITH

Your unwillingness to comment directly suggests that you don't believe McLaren to be cheetahs after all.

[McCheets]

Of course, Righteous Ron was acting in the interests of F1 when he launched a protest after last year's Brazilian GP regarding fuel irregularities.

I will never forget the press statement from McLaren which went along the lines of, "we believe that it is wrong for the championship to be decided in this manner."

Matt Bishop was also acting in the interests of F1 when he distributed a document full of fallacies regarding Renault's possession of McLaren data.

The response of "shameless hypocrites" from Ferrari after the fuel protest epitomises Vodafone McLaren Mercedes. If only those who follow Ron blindly could see.

[JoseBelgica]

McCheets:
"You are right - it was the two Spaniards (de la Rosa and Alonso) who were to blame! A noble Englishman would never do such a thing!"

I guess you are being sarcastic? ;-)

Derek:
The fact is that MCLAREN CHEATED and get over with, 100million Dollars. And you are still convincing us that it was the guilty of Alonso and Pedro? ha ha ha. What is this ? British team therefore the foreigners are guilty kind of thing?
Can you please explain me why Ron Dennis, first say "We did not have the papers" and at the end of the season "we apologize" ?

About the gentlemen's pact to let Ferrari win... I only have to ask,
WHY NOW EVERYTHING IS COOL BETWEEN MCLAREN AND FERRARI?

Why did Ferrari suddenly stops the case and goes after the weakest link (Stepney) and not for the Team that used the information ?

I was fed up of hearing that "Mclaren is guilty and we will prove it on court". But now everything has changed. This stinks !

Of course for Mclaren fans this is a good news, you guys are breathing now. FIA declared Mclaren guilty, the probabilities of Justice court doing the same 90% !! Industrial Spy. For the rest of us this is a mere Gentlemen's pact.

[McCheets]

JOSEBELGICA

If you do not live in England, then you will not appreciate how self-righteous and hypocritical some people are. The media always portray English sportsmen and teams as being very noble and righteous, and foreigners as cheats who have a win-at-any-cost mentality.

There are some people contributing to this forum who display similar attitudes. In fact, I am rather disturbed by the manner in which a particular individual attacks people who clearly do not speak English as a first language.

McLaren is a classic example of the ‘noble, righteous group of Englishmen’. After more than 25 years of being told that McLaren is very noble and righteous, and being told indirectly that non-British teams are cheats, in 2007 McLaren was finally exposed for what it is - first with the use of Ferrari data, and then with Matt Bishop's Renault dossier.

Before traction control was once again allowed in F1 in 2001, the English media kept claiming that Ferrari was running an illegal traction control system. Some journalists claimed that Ferrari would suffer when teams were permitted to use traction control again, as the gap between Ferrari and its rivals would close.

The reality of the matter is that the gap between Ferrari and its rivals INCREASED after traction control was permitted again. In particular, McLaren's performance relative to Ferrari suffered significantly.

Other examples of supposedly noble and righteous English teams and sportsmen include the English cricket team and David Beckham.

In the early 1990s the captain of the English cricket team was filmed tampering with the cricket ball during the match, and fairly recently the English cricket team was involved in some very unsportsmanlike behaviour - but they still lost that game! However, after a short while everybody forgets these actions.

In a qualification match for the 2006 World Cup, David Beckham, England football team captain, deliberately attacked a Welsh opponent. Beckham's intention was to injure the Welsh player and so force him to leave the field.

Many English people, and many people in the English media, still complain about Schumacher driving into Hill in 1994, but they never talk about the disgraceful actions of David Beckham. Beckham continued to be the England captain after this shocking behaviour!

There are numerous examples of such hypocrisy.