Is Felipe Massa legal at this point?

Quite a few people have been asking about Felipe's move on Mark Webber which I think happened on lap 65. The main issue seems to be whether or not Felipe was legal, crossing the white line on the edge of the track and going into the area of red chevrons, heading down to Turn 1. The rule here is Annex L of the International Sporting Code, Chapter IV, Article 2, para G( yes, I am becoming a real sad case): "The racetrack alone shall be used by the drivers during the race." The FIA says there are also relevant rules in Art 30.3 of the Sporting Regulations (I admit I haven't looked those up).

Well, I asked the FIA about this and enquiries were made on my/your behalf. It turns out the stewards spoke to Webber about this. They were quite happy with Massa's driving at this point but were concerned about Webber "pushing Massa into the wall." There was "never any question in relation to the legality" of Massa's move. The stewards saw this as primarily a safety issue and they were helped in their assessment of what happened at that particular part of the track by the Japanese steward who has long experience of the Fuji Speedway.

So there you have it. It would be great to see a video of this incident as well. Unfortunately, like the video of Turn 1 which is no longer available, I suspect we will not be able to see this either. I do remember watching it at the time and seeing Mark move across to the right but I can't recall whether it would have been fair to argue that Felipe was trapped more by Mark than by his own actions. In the photo Felipe is well and truly on the right and largely off the track; it's a question of how and why he ended up there...

Two extras:
One. There are signs that the FIA might be interested in addressing the issue of the availablity of key moments of footage for websites like this one after races in the cause of helping people to understand what went on at a critical moment, or why the stewards intervened.
Two. I have the impression that the powers-that-be regard Lewis's driving in Fuji at Turn 1 as bordering on reckless and that if he had touched another car or caused an accident he would be looking at a 10-place penalty in Shanghai. There's no soul-searching there; this another open and shut case as far as the rule-makers are concerned.

Comments

[Chris English]

There is a video of the Massa/Webber action on youtube, but sadly it will probably be removed again shortly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYVAGuoIxvw

It would be great if FOM/FIA were to upload videos of in-race footage after races which would eradicate the need for fans to upload 'copyright infringed' videos onto youtube.
But then the FIA would be shooting themselves in the foot by showboating the stewards inconsistenies. Oh now i'm just being cynical..

[IDR]

Yeah, It's a pitty not to have available the full video.

I had the opportunity to watch it, and I only have to say that Mark Webber didn't give much space to Felipe.

In fact, Mark few meters after this photo, were running on the pits exit line also. He didn't need to invade it for any other intention than trying to keep his postion.

In any case, was thrilling, a pleasure to watch. Two guys fighting for a point, that's what F1 means!

[Michael Cowley]

I don't think F1 needs to give out penalties for events that might have happened.

As it happened, Lewis Hamilton didn't cause an accident of any kind. Therefore he did nothing wrong.

[paul]

i just tried to get a copy of the vieo from youtube but got the following message:
"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management "
looks like we won't get to see it again.
anyone smell fish?

[Gary M]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9DKCLLHjs

At first glance you might wonder what the Stewards thought they were doing speaking to Webber and not Massa. I mean, looking at it from Massa's onboard it appears that Webber held his line until after Massa took him on the inside.

But I totally agree with the stewards on this Ed. Webber should not only have been penalised for this move, but banned for the remainder of the season.

Actually, I would go further. I would have locked him in an empty cell and hit repeatedly with grilled shrimps while Ralf Schumacher sang German folk songs in his ear for 12 hours straight.

The nerve of some jumped up Aussie thinking he is big enough to dare try and race against a Ferrari. Unbelievable. I am amazed the stewards did not throw the book at him.

We need to put a stop to this "racing" nonsense as quickly as possible, this is supposed to be the Ferrari show and I for one am tired of it being overshadowed by pilots who think they are actually in a competition.

[Michael Cowley]

in short, it may have been reckless but it was wreckless.

[paul]

quick...it might be gone soon

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9DKCLLHjs

massa was crazy to do that when you look at his onboard footage..

[Steve]

More Ferrari bias by the stewards? Surely not ;)

[Roger Carr]

"...about Felipe's move on Mark Webber which I think happened on lap 65. ..."
The English commentators on the television broadcast I was watching were stunned that Felipe even considered using that off-track area ~ the pitstop on-ramp ~ as a part of the racetrack. They became quite vocal; then changed tone and kinda shrugged that in these srange times who knew what was "correct" and what was "incorrect" anymore... but they certainly gave the impression they considered it was an illegal pass.
p.s. Thanks for the spaces before and after brackets.

[Michael Cowley]

I am also wondering, given that what Massa is doing is explicitly forbidden by the rules of F1, why the stewards did not see anything wrong with it?

(I don't think it deserves a penalty but it is breaking the rules as written down).

Now we have arrived at this point of to-(or beyond) the-letter rule enforcement, it really does have to be consistent and follow the book...

[Nick]

A clear penalty for Webber for forcing Massa of the race track surely ! Thats the way it worked for Hamilton.

[Ben Smith]

Ed, I've put the video up for a short time so you can take a look.

http://tinyurl.com/4d2pst

[Al]

I'm sorry Ed but "...I can't recall whether it would have been fair to argue that Felipe was trapped more by Mark than by his own actions". Massa was behind and overtaking. Webber is allowed one continuous move I believe to block an overtake. Massa should therefore have backed off? Ask yourself this: If there had been a wall there would he have braked and pulled in behind or driven into the wall?

I don't like being cynical and I genuinely don't believe the FIA favours Ferrari deliberately but that's two incidents in one race involving Massa where the seemingly innocent party has ended up questioned by the stewards. (Bourdais being the other of course.)

Like I say I'm sure it's not favouritism and is simply me not understanding the rules. I can't stand football but understand the offside rule; love rugby and just about understand the offside rule; and have been watching F1 for long enough to understand it. Except I clearly don't. Am I the problem or the rules?

[Gary M]

Sorry to double post Ed, I hope that the video works.

Just want to make a serious point about this, the Stewards told you it was "primarily a safety issue", It would be good to understand who's safety they are talking about.

It certainly is no the safety of the driver who could have been exiting the pits at the same time that Massa pulled this stunt. It is not so far fetched to speculate that had someone been exiting the pits right then they could be severely injured or even killed. So it certainly was no the other drivers safety they were concerned with.

Was it then perhaps the marshals and other track workers safety they were thinking about? Could passing someone at maximum speed in a clearly defined no go area so close to the pit exit be actually safer for them?

Or maybe it was Webber's safety they were concerned with? Or even Massa's?

You see the problem I have is that it is clear from the video (and if it does not work just search YouTube there are a few more) that Massa deliberately chose the inside to pass Webber. From Massa's own camera it was clear that Webber never moved that much, and besides he was defending his line. There was tons of room on the outside for Massa to safely pass and yet he still chose to take the slim, risky gap on the inside and once he realised there was not any room to pass instead of switching to the outside he drove off the track and through what is probably the most unsafe area of the track to pass.

I have no idea what possessed Massa to take that risk, it can easily be compared to the Spa incident in terms of the actual rule that was broken, but as we know it Spa Lewis gave the place back but was still penalised. Massa did not even bother doing that and yet the Stewards still decided they needed to talk to Webber!! What Massa did was a black flag offence.

Yes once Massa was alongside and had crossed the chevrons then Webber gave him a very little squeeze, maybe a little dangerous but he was defending. But can anyone tell me how different it was to what Kimi did to Lewis to cause him to leave the track in Spa?

If the Japanese steward seemed to think it was usual for this track and the safest thing to do then someone really should be asking why the red and white chevrons in the first place? Seriously, if it is okay to drive on there then why did someone bother to specially mark that section out?

Just like the Bourdais incident it really stinks. Ed, there must be some doubt in your mind about the intentions of the stewards after this surely? It is as though they are not even bothering to hide it anymore. The double standards on view at the moment are just too staggering. This was no doubt a reckless, dangerous and stupid maneuver by Massa.

[Alex]

>The racetrack alone shall be used by the drivers during the race

So, we are not going to hear more complaints about Hamilton's chicane?

Frankly, I don't now if Felipe made a violation. I need to see an overhead replay, showing whether Massa was overtaking Webber before stepping onto the pitlane.

I am no rules steward, but I'm sure that if a driver is pushed onto the pitlane, it is a legal maneuver.

[Ben Smith]

Sorry, my earlier video of the incident didn't work properly.

I've uploaded it to YouTube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xspMFp1h8v0

YouTube screwed up the aspect ratio, but at least you can see it now. :-)

[Stuart Forrest]

Of course he is legal, he is in a Ferrari.

[ELCROWLEY]

Hi Ed,
you can see onboard footage here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9DKCLLHjs

Pedro de la Rosa said on TV that Webber did a very dangerous and unnecessary movement.

If Webber push him out, what the hell must do Massa? Jump over the pitwall or brake? If there is room, everything is OK.

I don't understand why people try to punish Massa for that. Webber was who pushed Kimi!!
There is no problem about crossing track lines in main straight. We saw a lot of times.

I think it would be interesting for your readers to talk about Ham's dangerous movements. Trulli and Kubica are going to warning to Ham in previous drivers meeting he can't drive that dangerous way.

regards

[Moe]

Thank you for pointing this out, it seems Mark Webber might get 25s penalty. let's keep an eye on the News. He has no right to defend his line in such dangerous way. He almost made pushed the "RED CAR" to the wall. It was totally Mark Webber's fault, because he deliberately open the door for Massa so he might crash...

Seriously, another incident where the FIA shines as an ethical and unbiased orgnization..

[splidge]

How is this a safety issue? Massa could have braked. At least that's what was said of the Kimi/Lewis Spa incident.

I still have the footage on my PVR at home (at work right now) but my impression was that Webber moved to the edge of the track to defend and Massa just went round the outside and over the line.

Regarding your last extra, it just seems ludicrous. Lewis was an idiot at Turn 1 and I don't think you will find many defending his driving there but there is a near pile up in Turn 1 pretty much every race, and yet we never see penalties for it until now.

[Kohque]

I still don't see it.

I have replayed the overtake many times and it is clear that there was not enough space between Webber and the racing line. Webber closed Massa perfectly. But instead of backing down, Massa just went outside the racing line to overtake Webber.

"The racetrack alone shall be used..."

"30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track..."

As far as my understanding of English goes, this means that nothing, not at inch out of the racing line, must be used for overtaking or racing (besides evasive maneuvers I guess):

It cannot be said that Massa went off the race track to avoid Weber, because before he even starts the overtake there was not enough space between Webber and the racing line. So I am still unconvinced about the stewards' decision. I think Massa should have been penalized, told to give up the position, or lose a point.

[foryoureyesonly]

Massa-Webber: http://www.sendspace.com/file/er8hb2

disappeared youtube video of the start: http://www.sendspace.com/file/8ty4xn

[Jordi]

Some of the videos that were not available this morning, are now back on youtube.

Is FIA already allowing people to look at them as Ed mention in his post?

After watching the start a few times, frame by frame, from Massa onboard cam, still I don’t think it’s a punishable action, most likely a stupid error, and usually there are many in turn one.

What was interesting to see from Massas’ camera point of view is that LH didn't make a dangerous move on Heikki when he moved from left to right behind Kimi, he had lots of room, but from the take that we show on live TV it looked like LH and Heikki nearly touched each other.

That shows that we shouldn't believe all we see on TV.

What on earth was Lewis doing? He had massa behind!

[supercampeaobrasileiro]

massa's move up the inside is what raikkonnen should have done to kubica - martine brundle for one could not understand why kimi didnt 'throw one up the inside'.

massa's move was brave and legal - webber moved alarmingly to the right and massa moved to stop a crash - if anything webber pushed massa off the track like ham did to raikkonnen.

No penalty for either driver was justified here. As for black flag..dream on crazy ham fans!

[James B]

You see this is the whole farce that the FIA and the stewards have got themselves into.

In all honesty Massa did a great pass but you have to consider what has happend in the past and in particular the move Lewis did on Kimi in Spa. Some of the drivers said about Lewis's move 'if there had been a brick wall there' well unfortunately the same applies in this instance to Massa or are we saying that Massa didn't gain an advantage?

The FIA really have dug themselves a hole and are now spoiling the occasional racing that we see in an F1 race.

Interesting comments from Alonso, it does make me smile with the amount of comments from Alonso fans defending him but who have criticised Lewis for his supposed quotes in the past.

[Astral]

you see the whole first corner incident here from birds eye view. Hamilton made a driving error trying to retake - but all of the cars break late and all struggled into the first corner,Hamilton paid enough of a penalty by having to come in to pit and the loss of several places and seconds - there is no consistent logic for giving a drive through penalty, and seems to disguise the fia officials being reluctant for Massa to get a penalty for clearly punting Hamilton on the track on lap 2. Clearly this is a bias in favour of Hamilton, witnessed again in the same race - by Massa's overtaking of Webber illegally out of the white lines - ie off the track, and dangerously close to the pit exit (which could have been a disaster) - which states in the rules Massa should have got a black flag, instead at the end of the race he is raised up to 5th and Bourdois is penalised for another Massa mash up. This is anti Hamilton, pro Massa (and Ferrari) and ludicrous.

[Joaquin Carrasco]

It is really interesting to see as this year the stewards are trying to kill the Hamilton's WC. But the last year in Fiji or in Hungary the stewards were the best stewards ever. Then I thought FIA was trying to puss Hamilton (who was the last British Champion?). Maybe, I was wrong the last year; maybe Hamilton's fans are wrong this year.

Anyway, now the blog is so interesting, Massa vs. Hamilton with Alonso as referee.

Ed, you are in my prayers. Two ridiculous years in a row are so many! The last year, 17 points in two races, this year, Massa! Do you imagine Massa as World Champion? haha.

Regards!

[Red27]

I really can't believe this. Once again this is a clearly open and shut case that goes against what the FIA are claiming. The footage posted makes it clear as day to anyone with a modicum of sense. Watch carefully. Mark is struggling at this point, he knows Massa is coming and it's obvious which side of the circuit he will be aiming for so Mark, quite rightly, moves right to the edge of the white line. Massa carries on regardless and moves pretty much off circuit. Passing over the red area is clearly an infringement in my view. It's there for a reason, to make it clear you are not to drive there in order to help drivers exiting the pits to make a safer exit. Mark does not squeeze Massa, look at the steering input. Immediately after the red area (RED, that's poetic justice isn't it?) the pit line moves out a lot further into the circuit and makes it seem like there is a lot more swerving than there actually was. Massa was clearly out of order. There could have been a huge incident if someone was leaving the pits at that point. Utterly stupid if you ask me.

If that was a silver car and not a red one I think anyone who is honest would expect the decision to be different.

Part of me is really enjoying a lot of this, the other part is adding substantially to my deep dislike of the Farcical Intervention Association.

What I would really, really love to see would be for Lewis to win both this year and next, then Fernando joins Ferrari for 2010. Both of them in competitive cars, Lewis having hopefully gained a little sense and both of them equally successful. Bring on the biggest rivalry in the "sport" since Prost and Senna. Sad thing is that the FIA would not allow them to "race"...

At least Ferrari would have a driver worthy of sitting in the car and I could go back to supporting them properly again...

[bob]

massa passed webber by leaving the race track (all four wheels outside the line), and did not give the place back.

This is clear from the on board, and there is clear precedent that this is a punishable offence as recently as the last few races, even if you are forced off by the person you are passing (and even if you passed on track but it is estimated (by non-racing drivers) you could not have made the pass without subsequently being forced off the road).

Furthermore, the area he drove on is clearly marked out as special for obvious safety reasons, so it is a safety as well as a racing violation, so should attract a more severe penalty.

Which bit are the FIA ignoring?

The picture you chose to match to the title suggests you are questioning whether it is legal to put any wheels on the red area, which is an interesting question, but everything I have said stands even if that is not the case.

The only wriggle room I can see is if the red area is not tightly defined in the rules, and if you define the pit lane exit as part of the race track, both of which are untenable, and indeed, create significant safety issues.

[mecano]

Britain has some great sports journalists, suggest you take a peek at one of them

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/oct/14/formulaone-lewishamilton1

[Bob]

This confirms the FIA Ferrari bias. Going onto the straight Massa was behind Webber. Massa then pulled out, Webber moved over (his allowed defensive move, Massa was still on the track at this stage), then Massa chose to go off the track rather than overtaking around the outside.

To think the stewards were seriously considering (to the extent of interviewing Webber) for failing to give way to a Ferrari - the same punishment they leveled on Bourdais.

It's a joke, a joke with no laughter...

[Chris Cole]

I've just seen the Massa/Webber in-car footage for the first time (I must sadly confess that I fell asleep watching the end of the race early on sunday morning). Didn't Webber move legitimately to the right (one move as allowed by the rules) but simply too late and thus dangerously? I think Massa didn't have much choice but to move drastically to the right to avoid tangling wheels with the Red Bull which would have sent him way into the air and out of the race. Arguably Webber's late move to the right was dangerous, as dangerous in fact as Massa entering the chevroned red area at the pit lane exit. Surely if Massa should have received a penalty, and I think he should have for entering an area clearly marked as off-limits, then Webber should have too for what is little less than dangerous driving? By the way, isn't Webber one of those that's commented on Hamilton's 'aggresive driving' ...?

[Mr Beezle]

A first, I'm sure, from the official formula 1 web-site:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

Shows all the moves the steward had to look at, with some very interesting angles.

Massa/Seabass - I'd still say it was a very harsh penalty - where else was Seabass to go, it's not like he was lapped and had to be out of the way.

[Mr Beezle]

The pass on Webber by Massa - if across that white line was a wall/gravel he would never have tried it. Didn't Kimi use a similar argument on the Spa/Hamilton pass where Hamilton was 'off the circut and gained an advantage'?

I think there is a stong case of double standards here.

[Furio]

http://f1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html

FIA footage.

[Mark]

Probably not the first one, but here is the link to an official video of the three incidents leading to the penalties: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html
Once again Hamilton and Massa totally fair penalties in my opinion. Bourdais difficult to say since the view is not great. Did see an excellent shot of Lewis´s tyres, they were quite ruined...

[James B]

Ed, Just watched the 2 onboard shots and I think it is fair to say Lewis is completely innocent and there is now no way that you can say that he possibly tried to engineer a collision with Massa. It is clear from his video that he actually pulled in behind Massa and only overtook him because Massa ran so wide.

Massa however does not come out of this favourably as hamilton goes past him you can here 2 blips of the throttle in an attempt to get alongside and he very cleverly engineers himself in a position to spin Lewis around. Having said before I felt it was not intentional I have to now think he did this deliberately as he knew what was going to happen.

The Bourdais evidence for me has only identified that we know that Massa was slightly in front but as Bourdais says 'what am I supposed to do roll out the red carpet' Massa gave him no room that is why he span. This is different to the Massa/Ham clash as although Massa was in front they were still side by side.

The first corner incident appears inconclusive as I feel Hamilton obviously got carried away. However what I find most amusing is look at this video of the great Schumacher at Malysia in 2002.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IJJXIgnjug0

Who did the FIA punish in this instance? Yeah you guessed it Montoya! Can't think why these blogs are full of fans who want to know the reasons and can't understand how the FIA penalise drivers!!!

[Alex]

Re Extras 2)"Lewis's driving in Fuji at Turn 1 as bordering on reckless and that if he had touched another car or caused an accident he would be looking at a 10-place penalty in Shanghai"

As it turns out, amazingly, half the field went wide on that corner, many blaming the cold tyres and surface. Yet Lewis gets a penalty, despite it being Heiki who pushed Kimi really wide.

Kimi got no penalty for taking Sutil out in Monaco, so how did Lewis get one for that ?

Kimi deliberately pushed Lewis off track just before the infamous Spa chicane, Lewis did it accidentally, where was Kimi's stop and go ?

"There's no soul-searching there; this another open and shut case as far as the rule-makers are concerned."

Of course, not ... Max is just so blatantly trying to cheat the WDC away from Lewis whilst everybody gets lost in other silly arguments.

The reason the stewarding is so biased this year is the guy who ran it has gone, it is now run by Max's cronies. They even got caught lying about his opinion at Lewis' appeal, yet still denied it.

What a joke. Why is Bernie doing nothing while F1 looses all integrity ? Does he really think the controversy will just put more "bums on seats" and pour further unspendable billions into his children's trust funds ?

Thanks James, love the footage.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=IJJXIgnjug0&feature=related

Montoya calling the stewards all sort of names, great stuff. I do not understand why some teams do not let their radio transmission to be on TV, I think it should be compulsory.

Now, regardless of who was punished (difficult to judge with only that shot) what this footage demonstrates is that this is not the first time that the stewards investigate and punish an incident in turn one, as some people here were claiming.

Another thing that I like about that clip is that somehow puts together Montoya and Hamilton. A couple of days ago I posted here, is Lewis the new Montoya?

[GP]

There is no question in my mind that Webber is in the wrong there. Massa came out of the last corner quicker than Webber, picked up his slipstream, and did what a racing driver is paid to do, which is to pass other drivers, especially when they are slower! What a concept…

Corner one is a right hander which means that the racing line is the left hand side of the circuit, not the right. Webber is obviously trying to defend his position but there is a limit that he overstepped. There is a fine line between being a tough competitor and not accepting that your opponent has just won this battle. This bad sportsmanship was popularized by Michael. Now all young drivers think that’s the way one has to drive to be successful.

There are 22 cars on one circuit so it’s simple logic that drivers need to share circuit space from time to time. The argument that a driver is allowed to defend his position is valid when one approaches a corner and seals off the racing/faster line from a competitor but it certainly is not acceptable on a straight, especially when it’s 1.5 KM long. What was Massa supposed to do, lift off? This is an F1 race, not a drive to the country. If Massa had lifted off, he would have let Webber and the other drivers know that he will slow down if you squeeze him enough. You don’t get to F1 with this kind of attitude, those who think that way were weeded out in the lower categories.

The bottom line is that Webber should have moved over to defend his position AND at the same time leave just enough room for a Ferrari to squeeze through. After all, this is racing, not bumper cars. However, it may have been exactly what Webber was thinking and, like Massa, didn’t consider that piece of track to be off limits.

[Nag]

the turn 1 video is available in formula 1's official website.

www.formula1.com

[Scott]

The person working hardest to slow Hamilton's championship challenge, is Hamilton - same as last year.

As for the Webber pass, if Massa was illegal for entering the pit lane when trying to make a pass, then it was the same piece of tarmac Lewis used on lap 1. So we can assess the same penalty on both.

At least Massa got his braking point right for T1 :-)

[Nag]

I cant believe this! If this was done by Hamilton all you lot will be shooting you mouth off about how "brilliant" the overtake was and how Hamilton is "the king in overtaking". Such hypocrites! And come to think about it.... Ed probably wouldnt have been made an entry about it..... Or may be he would have praising Hamilton!

[aljuk]

Clearly Massa did nothing wrong, since the rule of precedent dictates that the outline of the circuit ends on the outside of the Ferrari nearest to a barrier, gravel trap, or patch of grass.

[Weasel]

I await the announcement of the purchase of YouTube by a consortium of CVC Partners/FOM, Ferrari S.p.A., and the FIA.

[LAK]

It's very simple, from now on any rule is the opposite of what we think! Of course it's Webber's fault! How dare he endanger Massa like that by mind controlling him to choose to overtake him from the inside!

GARY M lol at your first comment, and couldn't agree more with your second one.

AL good point about the wall. The only difference between Spa and this is that the area wasn't covered in grass. It's even worse because Massa didn't give his place back.

RED27 I too would want to see Lewis win this WDC and next years', then see him race Alonso but with no "FIArrari" in control.

MR BEEZLE thanx for linking the official footage. I was trying to see whether Massa could've deliberately crashed into Lewis, but it's hard to see anything as it happens so quickly. Maybe only an F1 driver would be able to tell us..

One thing is clear from the footage. Massa seems to think he's in an arcade driving bumping cars! First he blindly rams into Lewis, next he squeezes himself dangerously by the pit wall, and last he bumps into Bourdais. It's funny how Lewis was mostly blamed for his driving, at least he was racing.

Thanx JAMES B for the Montoya link! Wish we could have access to the team radio, now that would take our experience to a whole new level. I know wishful thinking.. Imagine the controversies we would have then! It would be a circus..

[Richard]

SCOTT - firstly, Lewis didn't cross any white lines illegally on lap one, in fact none of the cars did. It's the line marking the edge of the track that's in dispute, not the pit exit line i.e. the one leading up to the red painted area.

Secondly, the track is rather more crowded on lap one as the whole field is bunched up together. A little more leeway would seem to be sensible rather than when just two cars have the entire track to themselves, don't you think?

Thirdly, entering the pit exit area on lap one is not dangerous. Why? Because there won't be any cars coming out of the pits at that time!

[Richard]

NAG - "If this was done by Hamilton all you lot will be shooting you mouth off about how "brilliant" the overtake was"

No, had Hamilton overtaken like this, everyone would be debating whether he deserved the penalty that would undoubtedly have resulted from it.

[Richard]

GP - Webber was within his rights to move to the inside to force Massa to go around the outside. He moved over once, and positioned his car on (what he thought was) the inside of the track. Whether this is good sportsmanship or not is debateable, but it's been this way ever since Senna used to weave violently down the straights to stop anyone getting past him. It's not Webber's fault it's like this.

The fact that Massa continued to attempt a pass down the inside made it dangerous. He could just as easily have gone around the outside, and he'd probably have been able to pass just the same. Note that Webber stuck rigidly to the rule of staying within the white line, presumably in fear of attracting a penalty. Massa didn't, perhaps they were the actions of a driver enjoying immunity from penalties.

You made a good point that it's not a drive in the country so why should Massa lift. By the same token, why should Webber allow enough room for Massa to pass? If that's the case, there's no point in defending at all.

[minty95]

If the line was replaced by a concrete wall then I doubt very much if Massa would have tried to cross it. The same applies at the corners - bring back the gravel run-off areas and I the threat of beaching would keep them all on the track.

[brabazon]

As I said before, the 'Ferrari Family' know that Massa needs all the help he can get to win this title. They have no confidence in him to get the job done by himself on the track... And he will win the title, I firmly believe that now. The whole set up is so weighted in his favour that Lewis's (and Kubica's) attempts to win it fairly on the track will be in vain...

[James]

Massa clearly took this line to use the wall to his advantage. Webber wouldn't never have actually crashed Massa into the wall because that would have been tantamount to manslaughter. Massa knew this and knew his car would be faster in a straight drag race. Had Massa have overtaken on the open side then Webber would have been able to defend his line easier. Fair play to Webber though for giving Massa a squeaky bum moment.

[IDR]

Richard,

When I saw the video, I saw Mark going also to the pit exit area, few meters after the photo of this thread.

I would like to review it again as you are commenting Webber keep the car on the track. I'm pretty sure that was not what I saw. If you know were is a running link to watch it I would appreciate.

Anyhow, I think this one was just two drivers fighting for a point, thrilling and amazing for us; the typical things we don't have many opportunities to watch, unfortunatelly.

Related to Bourdais incident, I'm strongly disagree with the decissions of the Stewards. Nothing to punish, in my oppinion. (as for the other two)

[RichyS]

Of course the FIA were correct to investigate Webber. Everyone knows that you're not allowed to get in the way of a Ferrari overtaking you. Just ask Sebastien Bourdais.

On another note, it seems pretty clear to me that Massa is incapable of overtaking. Three botched attempts in 1 race (ludicrous punt into Hamilton, off track excursion passed Webber, and rookie turn-in on Bourdais). There's no doubt that Massa is devastatingly quick when in clear air (and his car is set up just right), but this guy just insn't a racer. The only decent overtaking he's done this year that I can remember is taking Hamilton off the start and outbraking (with massive Lewis-esque lock-up!) into turn 1. The double overtake in Canada was done with all 4 wheels off the circuit, so should have incurred a penalty (now that we know what the FIA rules are -- or do they not apply to a Ferrari...?)

[Jonathan Barnett]

As has already been briefly mentioned already, I do love the way in which both Kubica and Webber forced the red cars off the track in Fuji. Given that these two seem to have emerged as principal critics of Hamilton's "dangerous and reckless" driving, it is enlightening to observe what happens when they are the ones defending a high points position. Compare Kubica forcing Raikkonen off the track (simply by holding his own line, which he is of course entitled to do) to that of Hamilton's tangle with Glock in Monza. The only difference is that Raikkonen moved out the way, Glock didn't.

For all the constant slamming of Hamilton's "arrogance", "recklessness" and "inability to deal with pressure", I really want him to emphatically win this championship this weekend just to silence the carping. Go Lewis, make us proud.

[Graham H]

Interesting reading people's perspective on this Massa manoeuvre.

My perspective - the onus here is always on the driver behind to make the right call.
I see from Massa's cockpit no room for an F1 car between the line and Webber. Massa presses on and as his nose is level with Webber's rear he makes the decision to drive over the line, the alternative would be to back off.
If it was a wall he would have had to back off.
Massa continues the move taking a line completely through an obviously marked hazard zone and off of the race track.
Yes webber appeared to defend but his line is mainly as per everyone elses, particularly as they avoid the debris on the track.
When Webber has Massa alongside he veers well away to the left leaving room for 3 F1 cars.
Summary: Webber interviewed or to be interviewed by stewards to clarify his perspective = no penalty.
Massa electing to continue his overtake by going off of the track and through a designated hazard area = penalty.

[Graham H]

Interesting reading people's perspective on this Massa manoeuvre.

My perspective - the onus here is always on the driver behind to make the right call.
I see from Massa's cockpit no room for an F1 car between the line and Webber. Massa presses on and as his nose is level with Webber's rear he makes the decision to drive over the line, the alternative would be to back off.
If it was a wall he would have had to back off.
Massa continues the move taking a line completely through an obviously marked hazard zone and off of the race track.
Yes webber appeared to defend but his line is mainly as per everyone elses, particularly as they avoid the debris on the track.
When Webber has Massa alongside he veers well away to the left leaving room for 3 F1 cars.
Summary: Webber interviewed or to be interviewed by stewards to clarify his perspective = no penalty.
Massa electing to continue his overtake by going off of the track and through a designated hazard area = penalty.

[Richard]

IDR - what you saw was Webber going over the pit exit line, which as far as I know, is legal. It's the bit before that, the white line alongside the pitwall, ending in a red-painted hazard area that is the cause for concern i.e. marked as not part of the race track. There are a few links dotted about on the blog, I think the FIA's own website has some good footage of this incident but I could be mistaken.

[zenmeister]

Either when watching this incident or when Massa did a similar but less close move on Heidfeld (if he did? I can't remember, so help me someone) Martin Brundle made the comment on ITV that that was what Kimi should have done to get past Robert. Kimi kept trying on the outside, which meant Robert had the inside line for the corner.

[GP]

Richard,

I’m not sure where you get your information regarding “Webber was within his rights to move to the inside to force Massa to go around the outside” since Appendix L to the international Sporting Code prohibits it.

Here’s an excerpt of Article 2 – Overtaking:

a) during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/2058043717__mon_press_info_safety_car.pdf

If you watch the video clip again, right at the beginning, you can see Massa coming up to Webber after exiting Turn 16 and going considerably faster. Massa is sizing up Webber to decide which side to pass him on. Webber is “driving with his mirrors” waiting for Massa to pick a side in order to take the same side and effectively block the pass. So your remark about Massa “He could just as easily have gone around the outside, and he'd probably have been able to pass just the same” is not true for two reasons. 1) As the clip shows, Webber would have gone left had Massa made that choice; 2) The speed difference between the two cars was too great for Massa to go left after his original decision to go right, he would have clipped the back of Webber’s car. Please, don’t respond that Massa should have lifted to avoid making contact as he was moving left!

Furthermore, can you or anybody else point me to the regulation that states that the area of red chevrons is in fact considered to be off track?

Massa’s fastest race lap was a 1:18.426 (fastest overall), Webber 1:19.820 (13th fastest); Massa qualified 5th, Webber didn’t get out of Q2. What on earth was Webber hoping to achieve? Preventing another driver from passing on a straight (I’m specifically excluding turns) defies all logic. Like I said in my original post, there are twenty racing cars on the circuit at the same time so it is every driver’s responsibility to share that limited space, otherwise it’s not racing anymore.

[Michael Grinks]

What a big, beautiful brawl! Massa and Hamilton were not backing down for an instant. I don't think either one of them was in complete control of their emotions. As for the penalties, I definitely don't think Lewis should have been tagged for that. It was a pure racing incident to my eyes. Perhaps too much youthful exuberance for which he paid a price but not something that needs penalizing. And to me, the move Massa put on Webber might merit a penalty but I can't get a good enough look at the whole track area to tell for sure. But from what I did see, it couldn't possibly be legal.

As for Massa hitting Lewis on purpose: I doubt it. What sense would it make to risk your own car (and well being for that matter) out of spite? I think he just refused to back down and got put in a bad position where the hit was unavoidable. You could say that in a way that was deliberate, but I think it was just another moment of youthful exuberance. Or maybe youthful folly. Hitting Bourdais, on the other hand,
was not good but I think Bourdais could probably have slowed a bit without hurting himself, particularly knowing that Massa as racing for the championship. So the stewards might have got that one right.

[Gary M]

@GP

"Furthermore, can you or anybody else point me to the regulation that states that the area of red chevrons is in fact considered to be off the track?"

That's funny.

[clive]

Massa makes an illegal pass, he goes over the line to start the move and is in the pit exit lane when he passes Webber, he should have at least a 10 place penalty. If this was horse racing the police would be investigating the FIA for corruption. Webber did nothing but hold the line!!! Has anyone investigated the betting patterns on Massa for champ?

[Richard]

GP - "the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side"

The regulation you quoted doesn't determine to which side a driver must pull over. Webber clearly did pull over. In fact, he pulled off the racing line. I think you've read too much into the regulation if you have concluded that what Webber did was prohibited, and the stewards would obviously have agreed with me, hence no penalty

If we look at what actually happens in reality, drivers will usually do exactly what Webber did, and I've never seen a penalty given for it. If it's such a clear rule, why has a penalty not been given, and why wasn't a penalty given to Webber?

If you can show me a situation where a driver applied no resistance to being overtaken when racing for position, I'll agree that the rule you found has some relevance in F1 in 2008. For the rest of us, I'm sure the thought of drivers pulling out of the way to let cars past is something of an anathema in a sport which is primarily concerned with racing. If it weren't, why bother with the GP at all, let's just have qualifying, see who's fastest, and award points accordingly.

Had Massa driven skillfully, he would have sent Webber one way, then he'd have gone the other. Webber wouldn't have switched back because he would definitely have been given a penalty under the 'one move' rule which we have seen applied many times in the past.

Do you not agree that the white line painted in front of the pitwall marks the edge of the track that can be used to drive on? If so, the debate about the red chevron area is irrelevant, although I'm sure this area would also be classified as off-track. And no, I don't have the time or the inclination to wade through the regulations in order to quote the appropriate clause to you, but I think you just need to see where the white lines are painted (marking the edge of the track, not the pit exit line).

The fact is, if Massa was, as you pointed out, so much quicker than Webber, he made a meal of overtaking on a mile long straight to the point of it becoming dangerous.

I take it you think Kimi should have been given a penalty at Spa as well then? He made Lewis go around the outside of him on the straight approaching the bus stop, when Lewis was clearly driving a much faster car. Had he let Lewis past easily, and given him the line into the corner, the chicane wouldn't have been cut, and Lewis wouldn't have had his time penalty.

I have to say, for someone who thinks it's correct that a driver should jump out of the way when another car is approaching, your final comment - "otherwise it’s not racing anymore" - seems somewhat confused.

[supercampeaobrasileiro]

For a brasilian driver to get any respect from europeans, he has to do twice as much as the europeans themselves - this is what senna said and this is the reality.
If massa were an englishman or perhaps a german, many would say it was a great brave move showing steely determination. If ham had done the same, it would have been audacious and prococious skill from an immensely talented driver.

Many commentators spend a long time trying to persuade themselves that surely massa is no good - in fact, it is a much favoured stereotype that massa does not come through the pack - well, in that race, ham was only 7 secs behind massa after the drive-thoughs, but finished a long way off, while massa climbed to 8th and put in v fast laps - another myth exploded - sorry the facts do not fit your theories.

[Richard]

SUPERCAMPEAOBRASILEIRO - I don't think this is an issue about Massa or about being Brazilian, it's about the inconsistency of the stewards' decisions.

Had Hamilton made the same move, we may well be debating whether he deserved the penalty he probably would have received.

No-one knows for sure whether the stewards would have given Hamilton a penalty for the same move but it shows how much people have lost faith in their ability to be consistent (or impartial).

Three of the current drivers have now come out and criticised the standard of the stewards' decisions:

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=44292

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71423

[supercampeaobrasileiro]

richard i am well aware of the debate/issue about consistency - FYI I agree with you that they are not applied consistently - this is a v difficult area given how subject these matters can be. I was not commenting on that per se but thanks for pointing that out.

I was commenting on the way that some people analyse massa's driving in the context of a debate about what penalty ought to have been applied to him and/or whether his move was legal. Views on the penalties are of course largely based on an analysis of his driving (as well as other comparable incidents). My post, my choice of subject.

[PTM]

Oh! Have to admit it doesn't look good for the stewards, they shoud def penalise webber as he didnt let the Ferrari through.
Where's the justice???
Hell they should give another extra point just for being so understanding.

[Daniel Tyler]

Of course, he's off the track ! Just like he was off the track with all four wheels over the kerbing trying to stop lewis overtaking at Fuji, then he drives into the side of him.. But he's okay, cos he's in a FIA-rrari.

[Pau]

Does Lewis have to fear Fernando? Or does Fernando have to fear Lewis? Let's look at the facts.

Lewis laps Fernando in Monaco 2008 after a great Lewis drive and Fernando's mistakes. Did anyone see anything wrong? No, it was all normal and clean, Fernando let him through after being shown the blue flag.

Lewis unlaps from Fernando in a very unsafe way in Japan. He locked his tyres and almost crashes behind Fernando.

As usual the British double standard (A Parker, Gary M, F1 Insider, Richard) goes crazy about Fernando's "sportsmanship". Well, I have more reasons to doubt Lewis "sporstmanship" (Bahrain, passing Webber and Glock in Monza, using unfair advantge in Spa, crashing against Kimi under a red light in Canada, do we need to keep going?)

I think that actually it is Fernando who should get nervous when a crazy driver like Lewis is behind him!

[Alex]

Thinking about it, it is clear and simple, Webber makes a clever defensive move, guarding the optimal racing line, not needing to guard any further over the line, as we all know, that is illegal to use.

HE sadly failed to notice he had a FIArarri in his mirrors and realise that the rulebook, whatever that it now is, is now rewritten as required whenever needed by Mad Max's(Edit Moderator) mind.

Lewis is 20 points ahead if you take the Bull**** away.

How much more of zis punishment are we going to take ?

[GP]

Richard,

Evidently, I did not clearly explain my point of view. I don’t think anybody should have been penalized. No one ever is in those deals. What I was doing is respond to Ed’s original question about the pass. I wasn’t bothered by the move at all, I just think Webber was overdoing it a bit, but at the same time I thought Massa did the right thing by showing Webber he wouldn’t back down. That’s what racing is all about.

As for your “Webber clearly pulling over,” it is a rather naïve way of looking at it or a case of tortured logic. Unfortunately, the clip is not available anymore but it showed very clearly that Webber did not choose which side to go; Massa “made” him choose. What I mean is that on the clip it is obvious that Webber is watching Massa in his mirrors and waiting for him to pick a side and go the same way to block the pass (this took place at the exit of turn 16). This was all fair games until they got to the pit wall. At that point Webber should have left just enough room for the width of a Ferrari. I suspect there was no penalty for three reasons: 1) It’s done all the time; 2) Massa may have been off the racing surface but Webber “took” him there; 3) The stewards chose not to penalize Massa because Webber forced him there. Obviously, I have no idea what the stewards’ thinking was (other than what they said publicly about not even thinking about penalizing Massa) but nowadays, who knows what these guys are thinking anyway.

I disagree that Massa made a meal of his pass for the simple reason that he completed it successfully. And I find it interesting that you want the one-move rule enforced but dismiss the rules you don’t agree with. You’d make a good steward!

The Spa incident is a totally different matter and I specifically pointed out that I was not referring to cornering. In that case KR did exactly the right thing.

As for my comments “that’s not racing anymore,” I’ll repeat what I wrote in my original post. There are twenty cars on track which means that drivers need to share a limited amount of space. I’ve seen it with my own eyes back in my racing days when a friend of mine was killed at Mosport Park. It was a situation that happens all the time in racing, just like this Massa/Webber situation. My friend exited Moss Corner onto the long Mario Andretti back straight with greater speed than another driver. This other driver did exactly what Webber did, my friend didn’t back off, their wheels touched, my friend’s car flipped, cleared the guard rail and landed upside down in a ditch. His lap belt slit his throat and he died from loss of blood. The guy who was blocking my friend never raced again. I see him from time to time some 25 years later and he can’t forgive himself. All he had to do was to pretend he was going to block my friend to dissuade him from passing AND leave just enough room for my friend to squeeze through. (Edit moderator).

Like I said, drivers need to share the same piece of real estate or it’s not racing anymore.

[Richard]

GP - I disagree that Webber made Massa choose which way to go. Had he been alongside, I'd agree with you, and it would have been a very dangerous move. But Webber chose the inside before Massa was alongside.

Massa continued to take the inside line through choice. I believe he did this to show the rest of the field that he's not a soft touch, and can race aggressively when he wants to. Good for him (although I don't think the move was all that clever, it needn't have been so risky e.g. it could have attracted a penalty).

With a little more ingenuity, Massa could easily have overtaken without going off the track. I expect he was surprised at how much resistance Webber gave him. 'Selling the dummy' to another driver in respect of which side you're going to overtake on is hardly the cutting edge of racing tactics.

Did Massa complete the move successfully? Not unless you think overtaking whilst off the track is a success. I didn't say I wanted the one-move rule enforced, and I didn't dismiss the rule you mentioned. I just pointed out what normally happens in these situations.

The Spa incident is not different if you apply the rule you highlighted. LH was clearly a lot faster, so KR should have let him through on the straight before the bus stop if we apply 'your' rule.

The facts remain, whether you agree with the style of racing or not:

1. Webber moved over, just like many have done before, to make Massa overtake on the outside. If it is a single move, the stewards will not penalise, they will only penalise if a driver switches back and forth.
2. It was not especially dangerous because Webber made it clear he was moving to the inside well before Massa was alongside. Had he waited til Massa was alongside, thus pushing him into the wall, I think he should have had the book thrown at him, but he didn't
3. Webber was careful to remain on the track at all times i.e. within the white line.
4. Massa chose to continue the move, even though he had to go of the track to achieve it. We've been told that going off track to gain a place is illegal, so why shouldn't he have received a penalty?

BTW, I'm not saying I think he should have received a penalty, but I do think other drivers/teams would have if they'd done the same thing. The inconsistency of the stewards' decisions is really the point I'm trying to emphasise.

[steve b]

Dudes its a Red Car!!! under F1 law,
rules for ferrari are clearly stated below.
1) do what you want on the track and we the FIA will blame the other team or driver.