Israeli PM is a war criminal - Labour MP in the Commons

David Miliband's statement on developments in Gaza yesterday showed MPs are more hostile towards Israel now than they were during the 2006 incursion into Lebanon.

MPs from all sides were calling for the Israeli ambassador to London to be expelled, sanctions against Israel and a ban on arms exports.

Few voices were heard on the other side - perhaps because they weren't called, one Tory suggested. From Hansard:

Ed Davey, Lib Dem foreign affairs: In trying to be balanced and rightly condemning Hamas for the rocket attacks, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have at times seemed unbalanced in the face of a truly unacceptable level of Israeli military might.

Peter Kilfolye, Labour: will [the Foreign Secretary] undertake to ensure that no arms at all go to Israel at the moment, given that it is guilty in many people’s eyes of state-sponsored terrorism with its activities in the Gaza strip?

Sir Patrick Cormack, Con: may I ask that after he leaves the House and goes back to the Foreign Office he will summon the Israeli ambassador and say to him calmly but clearly that many of us who have been in this House for a very long time and who have been proud to call ourselves friends of Israel now feel ashamed because Israel is not behaving as a civilised state should behave?

Sir Menzies Campbell, Lib Dem: Is not the blunt truth that while we discuss this the Israeli Government persist in disproportionate military action, using F-15s, F-16s, Apache helicopters and tanks at a terrible cost to human life? If any other democratic state were behaving in that way, would we not by now be considering what other economic and diplomatic steps were available to us?

Sir Gerald Kaufman: Is it not an incontrovertible fact that Olmert, Livni and Barak are mass-murderers and war criminals— [ Interruption. ] Yes. And they bring shame on the Jewish people whose star of David they use as a flag in Gaza, but whose ethos and morals go completely against what this Israeli Government are doing.

Marsha Sing: Is it not time that we expelled the ambassador of Israel and brought our ambassador back from Israel? Is it not time that we called for international sanctions against Israel?

George Galloway: Why will the Government not recall our ambassador from Tel Aviv, ask the Israeli ambassador to leave, and, above all, stop selling British weapons to the mass-murderers who are taking so many lives and limbs in Palestine today?

David Winnick (Lab): In the past week, the Israelis have shown total indifference to the suffering and lives of Palestinian civilians, and that some of the Israelis’ actions amount to war crimes against humanity?

Comments

[Mel Prophet]

It's good to see that they're still politicians today who are brave and honest enough to speak the truth about Israel's behaviour, without fear of being labeled as antisemitic.
Israel's behaviour is apalling and shameful. Their treatment of palestinians in general, is inhumane, and can only lead to resistance.

[Stephen]

MPs should be very careful of what they say about Israel and war crimes, seeing as how a lot of people in this country think the government's illegal invasions of Serbia and Iraq amount to war crimes and those MPs who voted for them could stand trial for their actions.

[MJTValfather]

Israel must cease and desist but hearing these rants for ending diplomatic relations and arms embargo makes my stomach want to heave. But what do you really expect from hypocritical politicians? Like we didn't use Apache helicopters, F16s etc when we helped kill tens of thousands in Iraq? Or sell arms to any despot - who can forget East Timor's massacred thousands, killed courtesy of our supply of Hawk jets to Indonesia's. When do the same standards get applied to our own country, I wonder...

[Catherine]

At last, the voice of reason.
Diplomatic relations should be broken off with Israel, economic sanctions placed, and all cultural/sports relations ceased.
Israel should be shunned by the international community.

[Alan]

Ed Davey, Peter Kilfolye, Sir Patrick Cormack, Sir Menzies Campbell, Sir Gerald Kaufman, and David Winnick should all fly out to Tel Aviv and speak to members of the Israeli cabinet instead of shouting out in the House of Commons without knowing what's going on. Alternatively, they could tune in to the Israeli news, which, thankfully, is still independent.

Oh, and did I forget George?
Oh well...
Perhaps he's better forgotten.

[robert]

Who cares what you say. Liars all. And in the future, when I want to go to a prosperous muslim nation, I'll go to England. I hear Londonistan is truly wonderous in the spring.

[Wilson]

it's an interesting phenomenon that the perpetrators of the massacre in Gaza are not clearly identified.
As there are no/minuscule Muslims in the Israeli army they therefore must be Jews.
Why not identify them as such.

[Bertram Janes]

The Israeli ambassador and all his staff should be given 48 hours and then sent packing.

[Vaseem]

What is rightly heartening at this terrible time is to see so many jewish politicians uniequivocally condemning Israel for its brutality. Indee the Foreign Secretary's speech at the Un was remarkably forthright and accurately identified many of the root causes of the problem - including the sytematic and sustained blockading and deprivation of Gaza

[George Scott]

This could be the start of a new and healthier relation between the UK and Israel.
Harsh criticism, boycotts and strong action in the UN until Israel stops attacking its neighbours, and gets out of the West Bank, the Golan Heights, the Sheeba farms and east Jerusalem.
Israel should pay the Gazan government reparations for its damages and murders -- I think about US$10 billion for starters.

[alan]

I want to know what number of Israelis are to be killed to make this action more proportionate, oh and can we have their individual names please so they can be told. And does this policy apply to our own military actions. I had always hoped to kill all the enemy needed to win, families as well if necessary, without the loss of any UK military personnel. My dream would be to arm the politicians and diplomats at the UN and seal the doors.

[Arthur Wrightson, Bristol]

Let's ban the Jewish/Israeli Lobbyists in the UK.

[Pietro B]

Where were all the people affronted at Israel's violence when Hamas was firing 90 rockets a day towards Israel's cities? I might not like the situation, but it is Hamas' doing, not Israel... the people in Gaza are merely the jihad's cannon fodder, made to die as numerous as possible to get maximum indignation from a gullible western public...

[ed]

It's certainly self-defeating action by Israel. Hamas was on the way out until three weeks ago.

[Don Green]

I support Israel wholeheartedly. I would like to see Britain expell the Israeli Ambassador and withdraw the British ambassabor from Israel. Such actions would finally strip away Britain's genteel antisemitism and expose the truth. But I'll admit that even this an improvement over the first expulsion of Jews that Britain pioneered in 1290.

[Jeanne Rey, Geneva Switzerland]

The Israeli government members and military chiefs should have their names circulated to all European ports and airports so that if they dare to enter the European Community, they will be immediately arrested and then brought before the International Court in the Hague to be accused of War Crimes.

[Dave]

Why don't all the MP's listed in this blog resign from their respective Party's and get together with George Galloway to form a new motley group and call it the "Hamas Terror Party" and they could be known as the "Israel Bashing Party". If any others wish to join them, do have a brain scan first to establish if you have any functioning brain cells. If you do, it is unlikely you will be able to fathom out what goes on in their heads!

[Jake, Brooklyn, New York]

I'm damned well ashamed that my government supports Israel with my tax dollars.
Trouble is AIPAC has influenced most all the politicians here what with free trips to Israel for politicians and their wives.
What's that if it's not bribery?
Not in my name!

[Judith C]

The statements from the morons in the House of Commons are par for the course. The ruling class (laugh) is so craven, so fearful of Muslim venom and craziness that it will stoop as low as needs be to appease them - which, of course, makes them all the more powerful. Slamming Israel for retaliating against terrorists who don't want peace, just all of Israel (without the Jews) is despicable but understandable coming, as I said, from the ignoramuses who call themselves MPs and pay themselves accordingly.

[Procopius]

Good. But why so few MPs on the side of humanity and equity? Sir Gerald Kaufman is spot on. Zionism must not be equated with Judaism: it negates it.
It should also be said that the Holocaust does not make Israel beyond reproach or criticism and to condemn military barbarism in Gaza (or in Iraq for that matter) does not imply anti Semitism. This is a cynical and effective Zionist ploy.
A return to the pre 1967 Borders is the only just solution and the only hope for a stable peace.

[Ash]

... and the EU funds that have been used by the Palestinians to buy weapons to target Israeli citizens? Funny how these MPs were silent in the face of rocket attacks affecting 1 million Israelis.

[aaron]

It is enlightening to finally see the true colours of your average Englishman and his unashamedly pro terrorist (and in the case of Wilson, anti jewish views). I especially enjoyed Tom Fyson's suggestion of taking up arms against Israel. Good idea Tom and at the same time as joining sides with terrorists, starting a war among the worlds democratic nations and subjecting British soldiers to a battle against what is pound for pound perhaps the most accomplished and well trained army in the world why not also encourage the British army to take up arms for Al Quaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan. Don't worry Tom, I will call President Ahmadinejad in Tehran ahead of time to tell him that you will be dropping round to tea on your way to the front line!!

[Robert Beher, New South Wales]

How come nobody is protesting that Israel is attacking and slaughtering the civilians in Gaza.....a country that has no army, no airforce, no navy, no marines, no F16s, no battle tanks, no white phosphorous bombs, no fragmentation shells, no attack drones, no radar, no bunker busting bombs, no machine guns, no bomb shelters etc.
Israel is at last in the dock accused of war crimes and the world has found Israel: Guilty as charged.

Now come the punishments.

[colin froman]

There are more than 600 MP's.
Why sample only the loonies?
Mr Haniya is hiding under a hospital bed.
Is that OK with you?
His friends took out the London buses tubes and Glasgow airport.
Or have you forgotten that too?

[Yoav - Israel.]

I wonder where were all these MPs when, for years, Israeli civilians were being targeted, intentionally and willingly, by the Hamas? Israel announces in advance to the Gaza population of its intending attacks, so they can escape. What other country does that? Civilians are beign used cynically and criminally by Hamas to hide behind them. There is ample evidence to that effect.What other country would stand idly by when its cities are being hit? Compared to what the Allies did to Germany and Japan, what Israel is now doing pales into insignificance. What would these MPs have said then? Let's see how the UK would behave if a terrorist group were using a base next door to the UK to attack intentionally British civilians for years and call for the destruction of the UK as a sovereign state...This is precisely what Israel has been facing.

[daniel swift]

well looks like hamas won the war in britain thanks to the newspapers including the times doing exactly what hamas wanted.....england your pathetic hellbent need to be politically correct has completely deluded you, you have no idea of what is happening in gaza.. but it will happen here eventually they are already calling for sharia law in some parts of england. And when it does happen wiil you court marshal your soldiers at every mistake they make whilst your enemy works harder on trying to make you make mistakes, because he's found your weak spot.You wont know what to do when you see fathers strap on suicide belts to their 7 year old sons and tell them to run at you, when pregnant women are actually walking bombs in a land where no one is afraid to die cos everyone is going to paradise. i was in london a few months ago so much was written in arabic, everywhere arabic, its true what they say londonstan, englandstan.

[Nafis]

British army, Tom? A few Hezbollah's without air support sent them packing back across the border in days. The truth is the Israeli army have become thugs- very efficient against unarmed, caged civilians, but but cry foul and are unable to withstand any kind of retaliation.

[Judith C]

Yoav, Israel. You are absolutely right. Some of us here in Britain are not anti-semetic bigots (like the MPs who mouthed off in the H.o.C.). Stand firm. Drive the terrorists from your Israel. You are helping us all.

[Bunty]

As usual the Israel apologists are dragging out that time honoured ploy of yelling " You're an anti semite" in a vain attempt to quash the criticism of Israel and its inhumane actions.
Procopius made a good posting but I would disgaree with one of his points.
Israel must return to its 1947 borders so that we may Give Peace a Chance.

[Davy]

The headline is "what our MPs are really saying". Actually what the USA, UK, France Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Russia etc are saying is "thank goodness someone has the guts to confront Islamic extremism - finish the job!" The anti-Israel posturing is for electoral reasons only. No UK party can win power without the support of the 3 million Muslims now living in Britain.

[daniel swift]

im amazed by the british press, so much info has been avoided about who hamas really is, what there true goals are, who backs them, what egypt feels about hamas,it is obvious already to many that the british media has pretty much let the islamic propaganda machine win here but why, money perhaps.

[Kate]

Proportionate?

9,000 rockets into Gaza, don't aim too good

[Gringo- Philippines]

Mr Yoav- where do the civilians move to, you moron? To Israel? or to the sea? So you have an open border with Gaza-I was not aware? It is the Israeli blockade which initiated the Hamas retaliation in the first place.

[Wilson]

Given the criticalness of the on going'[over 60 years] massacre in Gaza/Palestine and the slaughter of British troops in 1947 , It should be presented to the people via a binding nationwide vote on whether we want to continue our association with Israel.

[A Harvard Man, Pittsburg]

Back in 1967 as a youngster I supported Israel and was happy to see them give Egypt a whupping, but after firsthand experiences with Israelis doing business with them over the years, I have changed my mind drastically.
Israel has turned out to be monster fed by oceans of US dollars and armed to the teeth with US weapons.
Israel is a racist state and the non Jew is looked down upon and given a glass ceiling whereby he can never achieve real power.
Power is for the Jews in Israel.
That's racism.
It stinks.

[GentileForIsrael]

Great ideas. Let's boycott Israel, arm Hamas and the other terrorists and let them come to London and carry on where the tube and buss bombers left off. Israel's actions are disproportionate ? I agree Israel should have just fired rockets at Gaza and see where they landed. I don't remember the British and US armies in Iraq or Afghanistan dropping leaflets, having a 3 hour ceasefire etc. Maybe I am mistaken. The question you should be asking is why the rest of the arab world cares so little about the Palestinians. Criticise Israel if you like that is of course perfectly reasonable but for the rest of you anti semites, MPs included,wht don't you all just admit you don't like Jews and be honest about it.

[shlom]

Are the MP's out of their minds? have they forgotten the reason that Israel were forced to enter Gaza, to stop the constant firing of katushya rockets in to Israel, which caused the murder of innocent people, ruined peoples homes, work and livelihoods, caused adults and children to live in constant terror of having to be ready at any second to enter the bomb shelters... how has that all been forgotten. If Hamas promise to stop THESE constant terrorist acts, Israel will very happily get out of that terrorist filled area (which by the way they left on their own accord two and a half years ago!!!)

[Davy]

18 days of war and so far fewer than a thousand Gazan dead, most of them fighters in uniform or fighters in civilian clothing. Population of Gaza 1.5 million. This does not suggest any murderous intent on the part of Israel. It suggests careful targeting and admirable restraint. In any event why does anyone in the UK want an end to the fighting. Hamas has made it plain they do not.

[David Tonchin]

It's absolutely amazing that Israel should be pilloried for defending its citizens, when we attacked Iraq who had done nothing to us. But then that was part of the war on terror wasn't it?
I suppose having 6000 rockets aimed at innocent people is an act of kindness! and Hamas whose charter is the destruction of Israel are the good guys.

[Guildersleeves, Suffolk]

"It should be presented to the people via a binding nationwide vote on whether we want to continue our association with Israel."
Wilson

I vote to discontinue.

[Richard Dreyfuss]

How despicable all these anti-semites should be given a voice and highlight the murder of unarmed civilians in gaza.

quite disproportionate i say.

[Judith C]

In 1917 British Foreign Minister Balfour pledged support for the establishment of a Jewish national home. Nothing much happened. In 1947 the UN proposed to establish Arab and Jewish States in the land, part of which is now Israel. The Arabs rejected this. There is now a determined attempt by the anti-semetic bed-wetters of the world to pretend to themselves and everyone else that the Palestinians only want a 'state' and to live in peace side by side with their Israeli neighbours and that Israel is constantly denying them this. The truth is quite different. They again turned this down when Clinton (after 8 long years) brokered a deal with Arafat and Israel was willing to give them everything they asked for. Arafat walked away from the table. Basically Hamas, representing the Palestinians, Syria and Iran have never hidden the fact they want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. And this is what the provocation with rocket attacks is all about - drawing Israel out to retaliate, hiding their weaponry and terrorists among the civilians, in schools, mosques, private houses, then when Israel finally has to hit back - to protect its own citizens - screaming to the world as victims. And some fools in the world are prepared to go along with this charade - as if we've never seen it all before, and before ..............

[Ray Groutage]

Why are all these MPs now so worried? Where were they when that Scot T.Blair went to war in the middle east without cause. Supported by the Tories, Cameron another Scot , also the new speaker? Menzies Campbell, another Scot, the present speaker, a Scot. Is it not obvious where our troubles stem from.Look north of the border, look not at the English!

[GentileForIsrael]

A Harvard Man, Pittsburg . Utter rubbish. Arabs in Israel have more freedoms than any arab in any arabic country. Try being a Jew or Christian in Saudi Arabia.

[Erez]

Well, with Britain well on its way to becoming a Muslim country the reactions aren't surprising... I would just like to see what would be the reaction if 9000 where fired at London... Hypocrites...

[daniel swift]

If you truley believe that israel is deliberatly targeting civilians then you are a fool, when will the english finally understand that the only way hamas can win the war is by making sure enough civilians die, the have booby trapped families inside their own homes they are leading civilians on to the roofs of weapons cashes...why is the british press not telling britain what the saudis or the egyptians are saying about hamas....the french have woken up but the british have left it too late...with so many muslims you have to appease them politically you have to write the right things otherwise they wont buy your newspapers. ENGLANDSTAN......you deserve it you fools

[AngloSemite]

when you read all the various reports, great delight is referring to the Hamas 'islamists'.

Could we make sure that we clearly identify the israeli 'JEWS' to maintain balance?

or do we have a problem pointing out the fact they are JEWS?

[Wilson]

A democracy cannot be created/sustained by racists on stolen land .

[Gantry, Doncaster]

Me too Wilson.

I vote to break off with Israel.
The overwhelming disproportionate murder of civilians is a crime that will not be easily forgotten by any of us.

As of today I am boycotting Israeli fruit, Israeli wine, Israeli flowers.
Let's all ask our local supermarket manager where these items come from and if he answers "Israel", tell him we are refusing to buy that stuff as a protest against israeli war crimes.

[Milton Hirsch]

Israel's 2005 withdrawal from Gaza has been met with over 6,000 rocket attacks -- without a peep of protest from Europe. At last Israel has acted to defend itself, and Europeans are outraged at the Jewish state. To any dispassionate student of European history, this is anything but surprising.

[Davy]

Gantry you had better be careful or you will end up without computer chips for your computer, mobile telephones, the most advanced pharmaceuticals and the list goes on. The notion that Israel mainly exports Jaffas is so 1960s. Join the 21st century.

[Mark Bernadiner]

It is nice to see that British Government has not chaged since 1930's when they supported Hitler and executed Munich agreemnt that caused 55+ mln. deaths in WWII.

[A Harvard Man, Pittsburgh]

Hey Gantry, a great idea.
I'm going to spread the word here in Pittsburgh that as of today Israeli goods are black listed.

[daniel swift]

One quassam rocket at your homes and you'd all be blubbering in the corner soiling your pants screaming for your mothers, israel took 8000 before it responded. The english have no idea what it is to be surrounded by fanatics who have called for their destruction since their birth, the british have no idea how to fight fanatics thats why their army would be decimated my a fanatic army, the british would have more military judges suing its soldiers whilst the enemy would be thinking of more ways to make them make mistakes.......what a joke. ENGLAND YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE TRUE ESSENCE OF FANATICISM, YOU HAVE NO CLUE YET YOU HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY FROM SUCH A SAFE DISTANCE.

[Lokster]

Daniel Swift,

Get a grip will you. Why is it whenever anyone criticises Israel they are accused of either a) being friends of terrorists and b) anti-semitic. Gerald Kaufman is actually Jewish you do know that don't you?

Hamas have a share of the blame in what's happening now but the Israeli response is on a disproportionate scale. How does this make Israel (or anyone else for that matter safer) in the long term? Seriously.

Apart from the revenge factor of murdering a few Palestinians who may or may not be members of Hamas - the 200+ children for example who were clearly responsible for rocket attacks on Israel - what is Israel going to achieve here except to add more victims to the list of the dead in the middle east and fuel the fundamentalists?

[Jay]

Well, this has certainly brought out the Jew haters hasn't it? FACT: Hamas booby trapped schools to ensure maximum propoganda value when Israel justifiably retaliated for DAILY rocket attacks on its people. FACT: Hamas deliberately placed rockets and guns in heavily populated areas to use its own people as human shields. FACT: Hamas deliberately targets Jewish women and children in its rocket attacks. The difference between a civilised democracy and Islam is that Israel respects human life and will not put its citizens in the line of fire so that propogandists can use falsehoods and lies for their own end FACT: Hamas denies the very right of Israel to exist. FACT: The world hates that Israel is the ONLY country willing to fight Islamic extremism and hatred of all civilised behaviour. The world want its jews cowering in Gas Chambers, not fighting a just war. FACT: Muslims are given FULL rights as Israeli citizens and are represented in the Knesset and the Army (and despite what the ignorant have stated in their rants above) In the new Iraq, all citizens were given rights EXCEPT JEWS. You may not like the facts - but then as anti semites you will never believe the truth.

[daniel swift]

THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS over years and israel did nothing, and the world said nothing because its ok when you attack israel, finally israel responds and........whats that about.

[kris]

Thank you ISRAEL for standing up to the thugs of Hamas. Shame on Europe for letting do the dirty work on your own, Cowardice from EU states.
The display of hatred by the islamists on saturdays is sickening. Useful idiots such as Galloway should be hanged for supporting terror groups.

[Questioner, Kansas]

Why has Israel prevented international observers and reporters from gaining access to Gaza and reporting the real facts on the ground?
Could it be they want their murder covered up?

Why did Israeli tanks deliberately fire on Red Cross trucks in Gaza?
Could it be they wanted them to be out of Gaza and thus not witness the carnage?

Why did Israel deliberately shell the UN in Lebanon?
Was it so that they could not witness the carnage?

[Lysander]

What on earth do all you people think Israel is supposed to do? Sit back and allow the rockets to rain down indefinitely?

The Israeli government has a positive duty to defend its people. Nobody else will. One reason the situation in Gaza is so horrific and the civilian death toll so high is because your beloved, monstrous Hamas uses them as a soft shield against the Israeli war machine - just one of the many repulsive behaviours mandated by their psychotic creed.

Until her neighbours recognise her right to exist, and shelve their openly celebrated ambition to wipe the Jews from the face of the planet, Israel can hardly do other than she does: her survival depends on herself alone.

[Ash]

These are the people who were rejoicing in the streets after 9-11 remember ...

[Frank]

Remember The War Against Terror? Invading Afganistan? Invading Iraq? Anyone remember? If not, remember The Twin Towers, The London Bombs, Suicide bombs in Jerusalam, and Syria overrunning Lebanon....memory coming back yet?

[Jack]

It's time to boycot English products, from tea to depressing attitudes.
Smile, i'ts time that "all bad should be gone from the earth"!

[David]

I wonder, what would the might UK do if it's being fired upon for more than 7 years, when after the end of the official truce that was not kept, got rocket fire directed on civil target almost exclusively. Answer: it would do much worst, as it did in ALL of it's conflicts.
The fact that Hamas has no F16, tanks and heavy weapons is irrelevant since he is the aggressor for 8 year, he does not recognize Israel to exist in any borders, he does not accept peace, won't consider it and from it's years of existence murdered hundreds of innocent Israelis . The fire can stop anytime - as Hamas wants cease fire only in his terms, he want's open border to Israel and Egypt, none want to open it's borders to Gaza, why does he not shoots on Egypt as well? he keeps using schools, mosques and Hospitals for military purpose and this was proven beyond any doubt.

Gaza was taken by Israel in 1967, why was it not Independent before? why did the Egyptians did not build a Palestinians state when they had Gaza (and Jordan had the west bank) ?

[Davy]

If you want to know about Hamas and their psychotic hatred of Israel, the Jews, Rotary, the Lions and infidels generally, have a look at the TV programmes they put on for their children e.g Farfur the Mickey Mouse look-alike. Google it. Hours of wholesome fun (I don't think).

[Paul Wilson]

Would the MP's opinions change if rockets were landing on their houses? Hypocrites.

[Max]

Hypocrisy or ignorance? 8 MPs say nothing about Hamas' years of suicide bombing and rocketing of Israeli civilians. Nothing about Hamas' use of schools and hospitals as military bases. Nothing about their boobytrapping of Gaza homes with families still inside. If they bothered to enquire about the principles that Hamas live, kill and die by, what they say, what they write and what they do, then it wouldn't be ignorance.

[Scott Ender]

Avi Goldsmith,

You are sick - your comment should not have been posted. Israel is murdering plain and simple. The reason no other armies from the west are intervening is because there is no oil in Gaza - only dead bodies of innocent civilians. I'm ashamed to call myself American.

[Harry New York]

Jay's just another Israel apologist who uses that sneaky trick of calling all Israel criticizers anti semites.
A phony defence that won't silence free speech.

So the Gazans are terrorists?
So the West Bank Palestinians are terrorists?
So the Golan Heights inhabitants are terrorists?
So the sheeba farms owners are terrorists?
So the east Jerusalem arabs are terrorists?
So the Lebanese are terrorists?
So the Egyptians are terrorists?
So the Syrians are terrorists?
So the Iraquis are terrorists?
So the Iranians are terrorists?
So all Muslims are terrorists?
So British MPs who criticise Israel are anti semites?
So the Israel critics on this board are anti semites?

Strange that the Israelis are the only ones in step!

[Tuna]

Thank you to all those who see things as they are and not be afraid to express their opinion.All the negative comments are in fact against the government of Israel and not particularly towards the public who are llike sheep in a pen guarded by wolves in sheep's clothing. Ethnic cleansing seems to be the issue here and not a few rockets that land in wasteland,(should not be done at all but its possibly a cry for help and attention by forgotten folk) . By killing women and children and young men the Israelis are ensuring the elimination of future progeny... are they now taking over God's decisions over survival of mankind ? Those who worry about so called future terrorist....perhaps a man with a full stomach and a roof over his head living in his own land would never consider terrorist acts so please world remember Roosevelt's words as Palestine was handed over to the jews " A country without people for people without a country "....a little detail was overlooked, the country was full of palestinians and it was their land that was stolen.As a non political pacifist belonging to no religious group I simply had to congratulate british bravery in stating personal opinions without fear of possible reprisals by jewish extremists. What has the world come to....please let us have peace for the sake of all our children and the future of this wonderful world.

[A More Gentle Person Than Avi Goldsmith]

Avi Goldsmith is a fine example of Israeli manhood............"Kill 'em all, the lousy non Israelis!!"
"Kill the unborn!!"

Are you typical of all Israelis, Avi?

[Fritz]

We Jews Love Life: A Tribute to Dvir Emanuelof
January 12, 2009

Israel is a small country, but when it goes to war, the front is extraordinarily broad. On Sunday of last week, it reached “Gan Dalia,” the kindergarten my five-year-old son David attends in the Ramot neighborhood of Jerusalem. That morning, officers of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) came looking for veteran head teacher Dalia Emanuelof. She was off that day, so they continued searching elsewhere, ultimately waiting outside her home in the nearby suburb of Givat Ze’ev until she returned that afternoon.

The news the officers brought was unbearable: Her 22-year-old son, Dvir, had been killed in Jabalya, making him the first Israeli casualty of the ground campaign in Gaza. Fighting there as a staff sergeant in his infantry unit, the elite Golani brigade, he was felled by Hamas mortar fire. Though Israel has a conscript army, Dvir did not have to be in Gaza, as he had received high marks as instructor of a squad leader course, was asked to go to officer school, and would still have been in training had he accepted; he deferred, however, saying he would not be fit to command until he had first fought alongside his comrades. In fact, Dvir did not have to be in any front-line position: His father Netanel had died of cancer at age 46, shortly before Dvir’s service began; as an only son in a single-parent family, Dvir was exempt under IDF rules from combat duty. Before accepting him to Golani, his commanding officer visited Dalia and asked if she acquiesced in her son’s opting for a dangerous path he was not obligated to choose. Her answer: “If this is how Dvir wants to serve his country, then this is what he will do.” Two days before entering Gaza, Dvir had called home and said: “Mom, I have to fight. I have to be there.” He went, and he fought—and was buried on Sunday night in the Mount Herzl military cemetery in Jerusalem.

A few days later, I was thinking about Dvir as I prepared to speak at an Israel solidarity rally at the Ramaz high school in Manhattan. I opened by talking about Dvir’s words to his mother, and then explained why he had to fight—that is, why Israel had no choice but to wage war to stop Hamas from firing missiles at homes and schools in Sderot and other cities in the country’s south. After describing Israel’s war aims, I addressed the issue on the minds of these morally sensitive young people: How we could be sure that, in the pursuit of moral ends, Israel was using moral means? I stressed the lengths to which the IDF goes to protect Palestinian civilians, and contrasted it with Hamas’s systematic strategy of using non-combatants—women, children, even hospital patients—as “human shields,” to prevent the Israeli army from attacking its fighters or to saddle the Jewish state with the blame for the civilians who are killed.

Afterwards, I fielded questions from seniors in one of Ramaz’s honors classes, of which the most difficult was posed by an earnest young woman named Julie. She accepted that Israel was right to launch an offensive and was fighting in accordance with the dictates of morality, but was deeply concerned about the outcome: If Hamas was eager for Palestinian non-combatants to be killed, while the IDF did its best to prevent such casualties, how could Israel hope to win? Either the Israeli army would be deterred from landing the blows needed to defeat Hamas, or Israel would end up killing large numbers of civilians and be forced by international pressure to accept a cease-fire prematurely—which would be perceived as a Hamas victory, on the model of Hizbollah’s “triumph by surviving” in the Second Lebanon War. She offered a chillingly apt understanding of the statement made in 2004 by Hizbollah Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah and later echoed by many Hamas leaders: “We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable….We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.” Nasrallah had meant that the Jews loved their own lives while Muslim radicals embraced death in the pursuit of jihad, but in Gaza, it turned out that Jews also cared more for the lives of Arab civilians than did the leaders of Hamas. I answered, haltingly, on the level of tactics, pointing out that the IDF’s detailed intelligence and precise execution enabled it to limit the bulk of Palestinian casualties to Hamas fighters, and that international condemnation of Israel has been kept in check by widespread revulsion at the use of human shields.

The question was still on my mind when I landed at Ben-Gurion Airport the next morning and headed to a shiva visit at the Emanuelofs. The first floor was overflowing with well-wishers, some sitting and most standing, centered around Dalia, her three daughters, and the general in charge of Israel’s ground forces, Avi Mizrahi, who in an extraordinary gesture of respect was making a condolence visit in the midst of war. Due to his rare combination of gentleness and determination, he became, with Dalia, the center of attention, and the two engaged in a dialogue interspersed with occasional comments from Dalia’s eldest daughter, Hadas, who got married less than a year ago and was visibly pregnant with the family’s first grandchild

From this dialogue, an extraordinary portrait emerged of Dvir—a modest, idealistic young man who was a leader in the Bnei Akiva youth movement, delighted in taking his friends on hikes throughout Israel, and could never be found without his trademark smile, which radiated out from his sparkling eyes and lit up everyone around him—a point amply attested to in the photos displayed in the Emanuelofs’ home. He loved life, with a passion, but was willing to risk his own because he felt a sense of mission to protect Israelis living in the country’s south. Dalia, too, was heroic in her own, quiet way. On her face and in her voice one could discern profound sadness, but also pride in her son and the army in which he served, and resolve that Israel must continue to fight until victory. One could also detect a spirit of hope, bordering on faith, that her people would triumph—and that, as Jews traditionally say, Netzach Yisrael lo yishaker, the Eternal One of Israel will not fail us.

Equally extraordinary was the picture Dalia painted of the support her family had received. She spoke of two teenage girls who came to her home, and when asked how they had known Dvir, answered that they had never met him but identified with the family’s tragedy and wanted to give whatever comfort they could; of a middle-aged man who said only, ‘I’m a citizen of Israel, and I came to be with you, as a representative of all of Israel’s citizens;’ of an elderly gentleman who walked in leaning on a cane, and declared: “I heard that a Golanchik (young Golani soldier) in your family was killed; I fought in Golani in the War of Independence in 1948, and have come to offer my condolences.” She described a phone call from a woman she didn’t know, who had just had a grandson and wanted permission to name him Dvir. Dalia assented, but urged that he be given a second name, as Jewish tradition says that in calling someone after a person who has suffered an unfortunate fate, one should make this change to symbolize the hope for better fortune. The grandmother answered that the boy’s name would be Dvir Chai—“Dvir lives.” And Dalia concluded the story: “A few days after my son had been killed, I could already say again, ‘Dvir lives.’”

At one point, Dalia turned to General Mizrahi and asked why Israel could not fight in Gaza the way coalition forces have in Iraq and Afghanistan—bombing aggressively against enemy fighters in populated areas. There was no bitterness in her voice at the IDF for having endangered her son’s life by its regard for Palestinian civilians, nor any desire for revenge—only the concerned tones of an Israeli mother anxious to protect the sons of other Israeli mothers. The general answered thoughtfully, but without hesitation, that the IDF had gone to greater lengths to protect its soldiers in Gaza than in previous conflicts, citing the week-long air campaign that preceded the ground invasion. He added, however, that the IDF’s strength is integrally tied to maintaining its humanity and morality. Soldiers are united in part because they know that regardless of religious or political differences, they share a common moral code. Alluding to the widely-held view that Hamas’s military leadership is hiding under Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, he said that he wouldn’t give an order to bomb the hospital from the air, because there are certain things one simply doesn’t do. This is an obligation, he stressed, that the IDF has as a Jewish army. From the reactions in the room, it was clear that while everyone identified with Dalia’s question, they accepted the answer—and were impressed that the officer used this opportunity to reinforce the Jewish values binding all of us together.

As I left to return home before the start of the Sabbath, I understood the answer to the question I had been asked by a young woman 6,000 miles away. Yes, on the tactical level it can be a handicap to love life when your opponent loves death. But in the end, it is that love of life that will enable us to prevail. We will defeat those who love death, because we love life so much that we Israelis—from teenage girls to senior officers in wartime—know how to give comfort to those who have lost a loved one, and to say, “We are with you.” Our love of life enables us to confront tragedy, and emerge with the pride and resolve, the hope and the faith, that Dalia showed.

We love life so much that we educate our children to love life, though surrounded by enemies who hope, pray, and work for our deaths. It is this love of life that enabled the Jews to return to our homeland and rebuild a state after 2,000 years, and it is the sense of mission stemming from this love that will sustain the Zionist dream long into the future. We love life so much that we refuse to have our sense of morality dulled by enemies who seek to force us to kill women and children in order to defend our families. Though our principles limit the IDF’s effectiveness, they provide us with intangibles that more than compensate—the confidence and the strength to pursue our aims secure in the knowledge we are acting justly, and the unity that comes from a society acting in accordance with its most cherished values. And yes, let no one err, we will win because we love life so much we are willing to brave death, if necessary, to ensure that our people can lead free lives in the country we have established against all odds. In the end, it is this love of life that will enable us to prevail—not only in the war in Gaza, but in all the challenges we face in the years and generations to come.

[GentileForIsrael]

Gantry, Doncaster can you please tell me where I can buy Israeli fruit, Israeli wine,and Israeli flowers as I intend to go to that shop at once and buy as much Israeli produces as I can

[GentileForIsrael]

Tuna "fear of possible reprisals by jewish extremists." Are you serious ? Of course I forgot about al lthose attrocities carried out in London by those jewish terrorists.

[Max]

"Avi Goldsmith" is clearly a troll from the MPACUK, SWP or another of their hate-filled ilk, designed to give an excuse to spark off ant-semitic outbursts. It looks as if it is working. Timesonline ought to remove the rubbish.

[Michael]

Didn't Israel recently withdraw from the Gaza strip? Now Hamas use Gaza's children as human shields whilst aiming for Israeli civilians.
Israel a war monger? No! It has made strenuous efforts for peace with all it's neighbours.
They fight for their survival, aiming only aim for military targets, dropping warning leaflets, treating the wounded of BOTH sides of the conflict.
What are Israel supposed to do? Sit back while fanatical terrorists grow militarily to the point where they can achieve their stated aim of wiping them from the map?

[Judith C]

Jews haven't bombed us on trains in our own country. Muslims have though!

[Judith C]

Since when was RETALIATION aggression?

[Schten Graby]

Good to see that these MPs are succumbing to the 'pornography of pity' that is our nightly fare on our despicably biased 'news' programmes. I don't seem to remember the last time Hamas phoned the residents of neighbouring Israeli towns and told them that they were going to be attacked, or provided medical assistance to their victims or tried to minimise casualties. Instead they deliberately site themselves in densely populated civilian areas and fire rockets from there, knowing that any Israeli response will incur casualties that help their PR cause amongst the "useful idiots" of the Western media. It’s not in Israel’s interest to cause civilian casualties. It is in Hamas’ interest.

BTW - Hezbollah haven't fired a single 'official' rocket into Israel since Israel 'lost' the war with them 2 years ago. I hope therefore that Israel will similarly 'lose' this war, which I have no doubt they will when they are good and ready to 'lose' it.

Just in case you Western liberals want to cosy up further to this nice bunch of urbane terrorists, consider that it's not just Jews in their sights. Hamas recently legalised the crucifixion of Christians, just in time for Christmas.

And, no, I'm not a Jew, just a friend of democracy, freedom and Israel.

[Fritz]

For Hary in New York
As per your questions:

Jay's just another Israel apologist who uses that sneaky trick of calling all Israel criticizers anti semites.
A phony defence that won't silence free speech.

So the Gazans are terrorists? Islamic Jihad & Hamas are
So the West Bank Palestinians are terrorists? Islamic Jihad & Hamas are
So the Golan Heights inhabitants are terrorists? no, why did you asked this most of the Golan people are loyal Israeli Civilians
So the sheeba farms owners are terrorists? no, but Hizballah are
So the east Jerusalem arabs are terrorists?
we had 3 terrorist attacks from east Jerusalem people last 6 month.
So the Lebanese are terrorists? see what Hizballah done to Lebanon, kliing freedom there making Lebanon slave of Iran
So the Egyptians are terrorists? no, Israeli has peace with Egypt for more that 25 years
So the Syrians are terrorists? no, but they support Hamas, Hizbahalla and Islamic Jihad that are.
So the Iraqis are terrorists? funny you say that, have you looked how many people died in Iraq from terrorist attacks in the last 5 years, Muslims killing Muslims.
So the Iranians are terrorists? Iranian Regime defiantly!!! - execution of homosexuals, threatening to wipe nations off the map
So all Muslims are terrorists?
So British MPs who criticize Israel are anti semites? No necessarily
So the Israel critics on this board are anti semites? No necessarily

Strange that the Israelis are the only ones in step! No you are!

[GentileForIsrael]

Judith C don't be silly you can't state a fact like that.

[SA Expat]

Being an expat from South Afica, I am used to racism in many forms , it is really disappointing to see many British people using the Gaza fighting as an excuse to vent their Anti-Semetic views. Afganistan - Iraq - anybody find any WMD's what about the poor Afgani's and Iraqi's ?
7/11, 9/11 the Lockerbie bombings, Entebbe and more recently Mumbai ?
Where does it all end ?
But yet the British Media continues to portray terrorists as victims and the perpetual perpatrators are 95% of the time Islamic Extremists?
It is no wonder the Israeli police are probably the most experienced police force in the world , if the threat of bombs/rockets on a perpetual basis is what the average Brit wishes to endure maybe visit Siderot and see the other side of the coin?

[Peter G]

blah blah blah... Israel is terrible. While our wars in Iraq and Afgnhistan are in no way 'disproportionate'. Give me a break. We should sort out our own messes first before we start telling others what to do.

[Pete]

RELIGION......the root of it all.

" If the Jew's & the Muslims were atheists..maybe they could live together like Christians"

Get together and put your differences aside..for the sake of your children.

[Al]

By my understanding, antisemitism involves holding Jews (and the Jewish state) to a standard not expected of others (including oneself). When over the last three years did the House of Commons ever consider condemning Hamas for attempting indiscriminately to kill Israeli citizens?
Of course it hasn't because, as other have pointed out here, the MPs happy to strut self-righteously in the Commons wouldn't want to jeopardize the increasingly powerful Muslim vote at home.
Our "learned friends" ought to consider the following:
The loss of many civilian lives in Gaza is tragic, but...
* If over the last three years, since every last Israeli left Gaza, Hamas had built homes instead of tunnels to smuggle arms, Israel would not have needed to go to war.
* If, Hamas had developed Gaza's economy instead of destroying hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of vegetable hot-houses left behind by Israel, Gazans would not be dependent today on the world's charity.
*If Israel hadn't closed the crossings into Gaza, Hamas would possess weaponry that would allow it to kill the numbers of Israelis that the MPs' lust for proportionality seeks.
Sadly, the decline into moral relativism and its associated pandering to Islamic radicalism is just one reason why I emigrated from England more than ten years ago. Britain isn't any longer the country my parents and grandparents were prepared to defend with their own lives.

[Norman]

Britain was the protector of Jewish Palestine at the beginning. Kitchener, Lloyd George, Churchill , not only Balfour were all Zionists.
Churchill planned a 2 state solution in the Second world war but Attlee and Bevin dropped the policy , failed in any other policy but after much misery Bevin was compelled to recognize Israel in January 1949. ( Bevin and Attlee -though denied-were anti-semites--documents , private memos show this)
The House debate was irrational and pathetic -sign sadly of gesture politics, playing for the Moslem vote and not addressing the reality of politics. USA is the world power, Israel main power of the Middle east ( except for Turkey).
Who can influence Hamas and Hizbollah? Not France, not UK , not USA, not moderate Arabs --only Iran , the rogue state.
Humanitarianism if real and honest would be genuine pacifist. It is not - it is pro Hamas- pro Fascist in effect. Such is modern Europe though no one is honest enough to face it.

[AWOL]

Didn't the English pioneer the blood libel in 1144? Given some of the comments expressed here and in the Commons, this seems to be a case (as their beloved neighbours across the sea would put it) of plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

[Erez]

So it's all right for Britain to fight a war to defend a group of rocky Islands thousands of miles away from Britain itself, but Israel is not allowed to act after thousands of missiles are being launched against it... This certainly makes sense...

[Karl Rainer]

Bravo the MPs who spoke out. Shame on Brown and Cameron, self confessed friends of Israel(i lobby), who failed to condemn the clearly grossly disproportionate killing in Gaza (5 Israeli civilians vs 500 Palestinians). What angers most is the media and government's failure to mention the clear underlying cause of the cycle of Israeli and Palestinian terror, that is the illegal occupation of Palestinian territories. One wonders if these party leaders experienced being kicked out of their homes and being forced to live in a refugee camp how they would fight back? I am joining the Boycott.

[Stephen]

When MPs vote to disengague and retreat from Israeli, they should do likewise from Egypt and Jordan. Egyptians, both government and citizenry (save for the Brotherhood), are supporting Israel's campaign in Gaza. Read of their ministers calling Hamas, Hizbolla, Iran, and Syria the new axis of evil. Analyse the policies towards keeping the border crossing with Gaza closed and turning-back people trying to enter Egypt from Gaza. .. .. No England, you are no longer such a great Britian, as when you foisted the partition solution onto that part of the world, then ran away, leaving the problems you created for your children to be agahst over.

[Davy]

Surely by calling for a ceasefire you are showing yourself to be no friend of the Palestinian cause. "Gaza will not falter; our triumph over the Zionists is close," said Ismail Haniya, the former prime minister of the Palestinian Authority and the group's political leader in Gaza (today's Daily Telegraph). Surely those sympathetic to Hamas should be resisting all calls for a ceasefire.

Unless of course when Haniya speak of "triumph" he is speaking of his martyrdom, his supporters' martyrdom and the involuntary forced martyrdom of their families, women and children.

[Neil Watkinson]

Some of the pro-Israeli comments above are shameful... what Israel is doing is wrong. Full stop. How can you expect the world to have any sympathy when you are showing such a lack of humanity. Hamas and Hizbollah pose very little threat to Israel but this kind of action only acts as the best form of recruiting agent - what price a couple of million radical recruits? This is a very short sighted policy aimed at winning the next elections and nothing else.

[Wills]

Leaving aside the politics of this madness - My view is that the commanders of the Israeli army should be charged with war crimes. Using White phosphorous air burst artillery against civilians is evil and indeed illegal. As an ex soldier myself I did have some understanding of the plight of the Israeli people, but I cannot support this obscenity. These commanders should be named, and arrested if they leave Israel .

[Jim C]

All these disgusting apologists for Muslim terrorists should be kicked out of Parliament.

[Davy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4441822.stm

People have short memories. Britain used white phosphorous in Iraq in just the same way as Israel, i.e. to create a smokescreen and not with intent to cause injury. One rule for Israel and one rule for the UK?

[DL London]

These Politicians are hypocrites, last week supporting Israels right to defend herself and this week condeming them.Hamas should be the ones condemed for using women and children as human shields. They are the ones send suicide bomers to target Civilians. Israel wantes peace and peace for the palestinians but how is it possible to negociate peace with hamas the terrorists.

[SA Expat]

All these self righteous Anti -Semities,
Speaking of the borders in 1947 , hey why not join the PLO ?
Of the people killed it seems certain people enjoy vilifying Israel for the unfortunate casualties - What about Zimbabwe where 1000's of people are dying of Cholera - not as important is it ? Neil Watkinson - you are very short sighted , you are very brave living here and not having to face the rockets??

[nameless]

WHY DO WE ONLY TALK RATHER THEN TAKING SOME ACTION?

WHY DO WE KILL THOUSANDS JUST TO SAVE A FEW?

WHY IS THAT GOOD PEOPLE DON'T GO TO BECOME POLITICIANS?

WHY ARE GOOD PEOPLE SO COWARD TO SPEAK THE TRUTH?

WHY THE MEDIA ONLY PORTRAYS ONE SIDE OF THE STORY, ARE THEY COWARD TOO?

WHEN BRITISH/AMERICAN SOILDERS REALIZED THAT THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION IN AFGANISTAN, WHY DIDN'T THEY COME OUT OF IT? ARE OUR SOILDERS COWARD TOO TO SPEAK OUT THE TRUTH OR DO THEY NOT HAVE ANY MATTER OF CONSCIENCE?

AM I BEING CRAZY OR ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING MY VIEWS? ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE SOME REAL ACTION?

[Davy]

Nameless, Caps Lock is the one half way up on the left

[Jane]

Vaseem, your comment re Jewish (and other) politicians condemning Israel. Take a look at their constituencies which are mainly Muslim. They are completely insincere - they know if they supported Israel publicly they wouldn't get many votes next time around. Politicans tell the truth?