New Zealand exit - good riddance to bad sports

New Zealand have to face reality now. They are not world champions and may never be again. The game is outgrowing them. That is the stark prospect facing the All Blacks as they return home not to a heroes welcome and an open top bus ride in Auckland but to derision, scorn and a quick exit from the airport - that's if they are allowed through passport control. There is nothing more satisfying in a rugby sense than seeing New Zealand get their come-uppance, not even Australia's scrum collapsing like a souffle fresh out of the oven in Marseille and an inspired England victory.

For too long the world has been preached to by New Zealand, who dare to call the English arrogant. We have had to listen to their sermons and contempt for us and if we ever dare to answer back then the venom of a nation is unleashed. Question the Haka? Sacrilege. Suggest that New Zealand raid the islands? Don't know what you're talking about, mate. Wonder why the IRB rolls over whenever New Zealand sticks its hand out? Sour grapes. Remember Steve Devine, the Aussie who was fastracked into New Zealand despite having broken all the eligibility rules, while a reasonable submission on behalf of Samoa on the same subject of international release was left to rot in an intray for eight months before a terse one-line rejection? It had been one rule for New Zealand and one for the rest. They believe it is their God-given right to be world champions. Graham Henry has smirked and rotated his squad and spent millions of Kiwi dollars on his expedition. For what? Their most catastrophic performance in World Cup history.

They know there is a new world order in rugby, based not solely on playing power and resource talent but also harsh economic fact. And the gulf is going to get wider. They helped to create, indeed instigate, the open era. Yet it is all about to backfire. Without adidas's largesse, New Zealand rugby would probably be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. But how much longer will the sports giant want to be associated with a broken brand? Players have left in droves and more are doing so, a haemorrhage of talent that cannot be sustained without long-term harm to the sport there. The trouble is the NZRFU cannot compete with the commercial supremacy of the northern hemisphere. They may not like it but that's life.

They do nothing to foster the development of the world game, think only of themselves
and how to bring in more lucre, and always blame others for their misfortunes. They won the World Cup rights in 2011 with a bid based on emotional blackmail and nods and winks about possible All Blacks games and a promise to build a new stadium, one long ditched in favour of an upgrade of the antiquated Eden Park. Their SANZAR rugby competitions are the ultimate closed shop. Contrast that with France and to a lesser extent England. The IRB, prompted by New Zealand, may mock and rant at the club game in those two countries but where would Argentina, Italy, Georgia, Romania, Samoa, Fiji and Tonga be without their players having access to those country's leagues. 27% of players at this tournament are based in France - over 160 in all.

Like for Gordon Brown, now is the time for a touch of humility from New Zealand rugby. They can start by putting their full support behind Argentina's bid to be allowed into the Tri- Nations competition. How about a game in Apia as well? For once they can stop taking and start giving. They can open up their competitions and have something meaningful that rewards success and penalises failure as in all walks of life. Try playing when your career and livelihood depends on it. That's when you find out what people are made of. That's why France and England are in the semi-finals and New Zealand and Australia are not. Bye bye and good riddance.

Comments

[Tracy]

Get a grip everyone it is only a game! We got over it in NZ why cant everyone else! If you ask me everyone is just trying to trash the ABs, their true supporters at home arent, welcoming them home and looking forward to the next game we can watch. To those who came to watch the lions test in NZ and thought they were terribly treated try watching a football game in your country and the abuse there at least we dont need nets to seperate our supporters!! To those who think we cheat etc and cant get over certain tackles, rucks etc, have you never heard of playing to the ref?? Thats what happening to us in the quarter finals and we held our heads high said good on France and got on with it, its life!!

[buts]

As a Kiwi living in England I was obviously shattered when the French reminded us what passion was and beat us fair and square.
Even more shattered when the AB's couldn't think beyond themselves for five minutes to give us a lap around Cardiff.

as a fan dont know whats worse!
gutted.

[John Anderson]

This world cup has been one of the most interesting so far; upsets, early defeats, surprise wins. I would hate to see it end in bitter columns like this one. I am not Kiwi or British, just a supporter of rugby, and I am sad this column is so long on spite and so short on talking about rugby. It's very easy to bring up episodes of bad fans - put passionate sports supporters together with some beer and it's always going to end in extreme behaviour which doesn't usually reflect the attitude of the majority of fans. It would be good if the media didn't encourage this sort of emotional reaction, a better example looking at England vs NZ world cup is maybe this one: http://www.rugbyheaven.co.nz/4237275a22459.html. It is interesting that the first text message I got from a winning English friend was "Ha ha, we got through and those stupid colonies didn't" and the first text message from a losing Kiwi friend was a joke "What's the difference between the All Blacks and a tea bag? The tea bag stays in the cup longer". If we all keep a decent attitude and ignore ridiculous emotional opinion pieces by the media, it should be a really great final.

[C McIntosh]

Please folks don't take the article seriously...it was written tongue in cheek (if not then very big foot in mouth).
As a pom living in New Zealand, I have to say rugby should be about open flowing fast rugby - this it what makes it a spectator sport. Many teams, England by their own admissions one of the main offenders, play simply to win at any cost. Dour, slow, painful - this doesn't help up-and-coming nations - think of Tonga, a desire to play hard fast rugby...and crowd pleasers in France.
Can I suggest we amend the offside rule to stop defences closing up and closing down the opposition. How about making the drop-goal just 1-point?
The game has suffered much from professionalism and TV rights. Time to change I say.

[Alistair]

It was the referee!

The All Blacks are an awesome side. We all know it. They've been world number one for years since England fell soon after their wonderful World Cup win in 2003. But they played a shocker. France beat them because, that game, that day, they were better.

I agree with some of the posts, this article is written angrily, poorly, and sensationally. This should surprise noone. However, it is in the most true. We played atrociously against SA in the pool game, did not blame the referee, did not say SA cheated, did not blame the weather or the lack of support. SA beat us because they were better. France beat NZ because they were better. You are arrogant. Accept you are a great side, a great side that was beaten by a better French side.

And as much as I love watching you play, am continually wowed by your speed, skill, strength and utter domination of the game, it gave me so much pleasure to watch the underdogs outplay you, outscore you and out you from the Championship. I am English, have never cheered for the French, my friendly rivalry appearing, but I whooped with glee for such a triumph.

I hope in four years time you have the ability, as fans, to show every competetitor and their supporters the respect that has been shown to everyone in France. I fear we may just experience hostility and anger, whoever ends up winning.

COME ON ENGLAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rugby]

Unbelievable, New Zealanders are proud, and have a right to be because for the last 3 !/2yrs we have won over 84% of our games and. Yet when we lose a game, i get upset but take it on the chin and except that you can't win them all and that losing now and then is good for you.
Remember it is your own English media, and general people along with alot of others from all over the world that had NZ as favourites, because they do play such great winning rugby most of the time, yet as soon as they lose a game they are tossed aside as the worst team, that never deserved to win anyway, sad really.
Maybe English supporters should also support there team when there not going through such a great winning time because the truth is so many so called English supporters didn't even care about the English rugby team 4 weeks ago, all of a sudden Ur the best and just because NZ lost 1 game they deserve too be cast aside. get a life.

I enjoy all rugby and even play with english friends here in London.
Patriotic is good, taking tghe piss out of another team like you have is just wrong, grow up!!

[Andrew Chamberlain]

I was at the opening Lions match against the Bay of Plenty in Rotorua. It was the only time I've had glass bottles thrown at me. I was also in Wellington for the second test. My wife and I were very graciously told after the match to f*** off back to England by a group of three New Zealand fans. It was incredibly intimidating and no very sporting to say the least. I didn't think it appropriate to point out that I'm Welsh and my wife is Scottish! Anyway, after that I'm left with no respect for the game in New Zealand. They are very bad losers and even worse winners. It was a pleasure to be at the match in Cardiff and it went some way to making up for the "welcome" we received in 2005. The mind boggles as to how they'll behave in 2011 when it won't just be British fans visiting their country.

[James Sykes]

All Blacks "great"? How can anyone claim to be great when they have consistently failed to win anything that matters?

Having lived in NZ for a few months last year I was happy when NZ failed to make the semis. The Kiwi fans are devoted but they are unable to be gracious in defeat. I have never once heard a Kiwi say "the best team won" when the ABs have lost. It's always the ref's fault or the opposition that cheated!

And comparing football in the UK to NZ rugby? Please. No one in the UK cares about rugby save for one month every four years when they jump on the bandwagon. In fact, no one in the UK cares about any sport as much as the Kiwis care about rugby because let's face it, it's only a game.

I think you Kiwis should be happy that you can punch above your weight in any sport, however insignificant.

[buzzwhite]

HI TO YOU KIWIS. I have lived in NZ for the past 6 years.
I have never heard a good word about the poms. Not on the TV or the radio or in the pub or cafe. I have been insulted and told to go home on many occasions. I have listened to commentators slagging off Clive Woodword, the English, the English team, the Lions, Brian O'Driscoll, referees and so on.
The thing is- you do not set anyone a good example. You lose, you sack your manager. The All Blacks have been slowing the ball down for years. High tackles and forward passes as well along with every other rugby team.
Do you all really believe you are not arrogant about your rugby. You are so arrogant you can't believe it when you lose. Whinge on, it won't win you anything. OR get real. Rugby is about team spirit, mud and guts, forwards to the break down and driving scrums and body on the line play just as much as delightful running and fast hands. It is about players, not gods.

You expect to win, you lose. That's sport all over.

[English Born Kiwi (back in the UK!)]

Absolutely disgraceful article clearly published to gain attention by a journalist who clearly has more hatred and jealousy towards the All Blacks than passion towards his own side. It's been a long time in the waiting for you to be able to publish such a piece Mr Souster! Keep on writing and everyone will keep on having a laugh at your expense!

[amc32]

when can we start abusing and deriding the fijian, samoan and tongan versions of the haka?
i mean, we are all sick to death of the AB's haka so it's only fair that we spew bile at the other pacific islanders?
let's be equal opportunity bigots and not just single out the team that has a 74% chance of giving any other team on the planet a hiding.

[David Collins]

There is an element of truth in what you say, like Argentinia being allowed into the Tri-nations. But you ruin your arguement with your emotional crap that in the end helps no one, and only strengthens the hatred New Zealanders and Australians have toward the English. A more rational, analytical agruement, written with maturity and a sense of purpose, would have all of us thinking that maybe New Zealanders need to take a good look at themselves. However, this sought of drivel helps no one

[Johnny99]

How Bitter & twisted can Souster get? Good riddence to a team who have set the standard for international rugby for 3 years now?. Hhmmmmmnn.

The avalanche of apoplectic schadenfreude from the UK media (see Gallagher, Souster, Jones et al) indicates that New Zealand rugby, & in some cases New Zealand in general, has few friends or admirers in the northern hemisphere. The references to the unfortunate O’Driscoll Speargate incident from the ultra humiliating Lions tour of 2005 seems to be at least one of the motivating factors. However, the preponderance of jealousy infused in the ‘opinions’ of these hacks when writing about the All Blacks seems to be the root of the bitterness. Oh for want of a rugby team that was admired beyond the shores from whence the came seems to be what they are pining for. Save for France & the '71 Lions a Northern Hemisphere team never has been. New Zealand reporters themselves are guilty for somehow wanting their team to be loved by all & sundry for rather obscure reasons. Not being enamoured or even knowledgeable with the game shows these hacks for the unit shifting slaves they are for their masters. Many of these hacks have suggested that arrogance was the root cause of their demise. It is an accusation with which the hacks are all too familiar having had it levelled at them many times after the merest hint of a home nations brief success. I would argue that not enough arrogance has been the All Blacks downfall. Australia’s John Eales, who’s opinion is always worth your eyes or ear should have sent shudders through NZ rugby circles when he recently predicted that All Black success was probable at the world cup because they were humble. The real problem was that the New Zealand team were not arrogant enough. Their players did not have the temerity to vocally stand up to a referee who for 50 consecutive minutes saw not a single indiscretion in the French defensive method. An event that has probably not happened in the history of the modern game. But then how arrogant were those New Zealanders to think that an English referee would apply the rules evenly to both sides. Really, what an atrocious flaw to be found expecting such treatment. Shame on them & shame on all their countrymen for selecting a team based on nationality & not ethnicity. How arrogant of the New Zealanders to have selected a team on merit & eligibility rather than based on their ethnic homelands. What arrogance & what shame to neglect those homelands when England, a paragon of virtue in the rugby world, gives such great support to those other minnow rugby nations on it’s boarders, regularly playing test matches in the far flung reaches of the empire as Cardiff, Edinburgh & even Dublin! Swing as low as you like, may rugby never follow. How arrogant to think that after all these years of cheating & getting away with it & generally being lauded as the best team around that they should expect even handed treatment, really, really what a disgrace.

[Tom Higham]

i am english and would like to point out how no other rugby supporter i know british or otherwise has anything but respect for the AB's. Apart from furthering the game tactically and in terms of skill they play outstanding rugby, to qoute bernard Laporte they are the only country that can put 30 points on any other. Fairplay they lost to france but they still remain a force in world rugby and arguably still the best team in the world. sad to see the times has brought english rugby down a level with typical pompous rubbish because england have managed to turn things around. Funny i bet Mr Souster wasnt saying the same about our team for the past 3 years.

[Pedro Fleury]

A bit too harsh, a lot of angry backed up there .... probably from the last lions tour to nz .... anyway, kiwis are a bit arrogant about their rugby, but so are the english.... the structure of rugby in NZ is amateurish, as it is to a lesser extent in australia. I agree with what you say about the french chanpionship, to me les bleus are miles ahead of any other country in terms of domestic competition, their have a good schedule, their league is very diverse as well, although the majority is made of french players, you also have a huge amount of players from abroad, specially tier 2 nations, and its not beacause the league has a low skill level, but because the anti doping programme in france is very strict, thus allowing players from smaller nations (and thus smaller bodies) to enter top flight rugby.
NZ got what they deserved, before the world cup i was betting on them, but after their poor, disinterested display during pool matches, i was completely disapointed ( i can only imagine how neo zealenders felt watching nz x scots).

Anyway, this was a very parcial article, but there are some truths that can be taken from it.

[V]

Where on earth do you get your facts? England have arguably been the worst world champions in the history of any sport. They couldn't string in one commendable performance over these past 4 years. That they were able to beat Australia and France is nothing short of a miracle. If England plays these two sides again, they will be trashed - plain and simple. On the other hand, you have the All Blacks - arguably the greatest team in any sport. They almost always dominate their opponents and making winning so ridiculously easy that when they do lose, it's because their opponents played out of their skins while the All Blacks had an off day. If New Zealand played France the next day after their defeat, the story would have been a lot different. As for the NZ press, I find it amusing that the British press is pointing fingers at someone else. That, my friends, is the height of hypocrisy. Many people will agree that NZ rugby is a lot healthier than England's. England hasn't won anything in world football or cricket for so long - didn't stop them from playing those sports, did it? I think NZ will win the rugby world cup a lot sooner than England wins the next football world cup.

[Pieter South Africa]

It is a pity when a so-called "rugby journalist" proves that he has no understanding of the game. The reality is that the greatest team in the world is NOT in that final on Saturday...for what reasons we will never know in this complex game we all love. But to say that it is the end of New Zealand rugby is the biggest hogwash I have ever read. I guarantee you that they will beat England in the next 5 matches they play against them. The worst is that England will wish on Saturday that they rather did not make the final....because South Africa is going to humiliate their mediocre little team with at least 50 points.

[Jimmy McRobinson]

As an Englishman I am appauled by this article and hope that the rest of the world does not judge England by what is written there. In no respects is it reperesentative of thoughts here.

If NZ were arrogant then with that team who can blame them? I for one have nothing but respect for the All Blacks as a great rugby nation and commiserate their early departure - what a game it was though! Kudos to France.

Its good to see that England are finally starting to play well after four years of halfhearted attempts and failures. Roll on the final!Even if we lose to South Africa then England have at least had a very heartwarming defence of their title and have reached the final in the best Rugby World Cup yet.

[rob]

Dear Mr. Souster,

Were you drunk when you wrote that piece?

Please never represent me as an English person again.

'A touch of humility'? Christ....

Rob

[Clinty]

I think you maybe pushing things a bit however there are some truths in what you say. Being a Pom in Auckland for the past 5 years I have seen many cases of venemous tripe coming from NZ journalists (if you can call them that as there is only one daily paper here in Auckland). The media coverage in NZ of the Lions tour was simply a disgrace and if they carry on like acting like 'spoilt children' in future then NZ will be lucky to get any future touring sides. They were happy to take your 'pounds' but I believe many would have left NZ vowing never return - which is a shame.

On a completely separate note about that Victory Lap, Helen et al. Firstly you Kiwis don't get it. It is a 'lap of honour' and is frequently used to thank fans for travelling to the game - something the All blacks could have heeded in their exit at Cardiff.
But secondly open your minds and take it as the compliment it was. An England side drew with the All blacks in that Old Trafford test and were proud of that and wanted to thank their fans - get over it.

[steve]

Wow, the Times has gone tabloid? This is one of the worst pieces of sports(?) journalism(??) I have ever read. Factually inaccurate, opinionated, without a redeeming feature.

Yes NZ was gutted by the loss but we're over it. The French played better, smarter rugby. Oh well. Good on them. A large percentage of us even want to retain Graeme Henry as coach.

Maybe NZ were over confident, even arrogant; but to come out with this xenophobic, jealous, anti-rugby piece is just plain wrong. It is reporters like yourself who are turning our sport into everything it shouldn't be.

Please stay out of the game and leave it to the grown-ups.

[RJA, Nottingham.]

Mr Souster, I have to agree with you on the subject of their "precious" Haka. It's well passed its sell by date. It's one thing to watch some massive Tongan or Fijian lining up to do thier Haka (it has some significance), but quite another to watch Dan Carter lining up for it. It always brings a chuckle to my lips. Followed by a roll of the eyes.

It reminds me of the 2004 (or was it 2000) Olympics. A NZ lad won a medal in the swimming pool. Their he was basking in his hard earned glory at the medal ceremony, when, his team mates decided to ruin the party. Their they were, these skinny, blond haired, blue eyed, white boys, lined up doing the Haka. It looked utterly ridiculous. It was absolutely hilareous. Talk about laugh...

[Mark]

Why bother checking facts when it gets in the way of a good story. It is dissapointing a paper such as the Times gives air time to shock jocks such as its columnists.

Could someone please give an example of a quote from the McCaw or Henry displaying their so-called arrogance?

[Phil]

Thanks to those posters who have added some sense into this discussion below, particularly those English fans who have showed the graciousness in victory that the Times' contributors have not.

I'm a kiwi in France and it's been interesting to note the lack of similar vitriol in the French press. I wonder why that is. Possibly because they have focussed on their team's magnificent victory, as opposed to the British press who have used their first chance in four years to take out their own bitterness at being beaten, repeatedly, by the ABs?

There's no doubt that many NZ rugby fans go insane watching rugby, and can turn into arrogant, whinging tossers. Mind you, I watched England get kicked out of the 1998 football World Cup in a pub in the Midlands... can't say there was a lot of generosity extended to the Argentinians or the referee that night.

Souster has implied that New Zealand makes no contribution to World Rugby. Assuming Mr Souster is right, can he please explain why no European team, bar the Lions, has sent a decent side to a winter test series in NZ/Aust/SA for years? And let's not forget how many of the Samoan team were born in NZ. Even the Italians had two NZers in their team... ones who had naturalised there only after having been recruited by Italian clubs.

[Matthew Williams]

I migrated to NZ from England as a kid and had never understood why my folks came here. I followed the lions every tour and was proud of my heritage...until now. I can finally understand why my folks moved.
I must say with this type of vindictive media I'm embarrassed to be English. I have never heard the AB's be arrogant and nothing is worse than a gloating winnner (albeit for a short time) You should be ashamed

[George]

What a sour, dishonest and hypocritical piece of writing. Is this really the Times? And is Stephen Jones the only alternative to this kind of rubbish? If the bitter tone of this article is telling us what it means to you to be on the winning side then you are welcome to your own sad "celebrations". I can assure you that the vast majority of New Zealand rugby fans will continue to take great joy in supporting their team and can handle defeat a whole lot better than you seem to handle victory.

[Steven Kempton]

Mark, The All Blacks a "broken brand". You're not half as good as Stephen Jones at this winding people up writing style. I guess that makes you the quarter-final choker in the Rugby Journalist World Cup. He's got hundreds of comments and you've only got 60 something. You need to really put turn up your game if you're brand is going to survive when going up against the Jones boy.

[blair]

Another disgraceful article from the Times, much of which is based on fiction. It really is sad to see some of the countries leading papers reduced to this.

[HGFC]

Tad harsh perhaps - NZ inspired respect rather than affection because of some of their antics but they were a good team caught cold. If they had manged to get past France (and it was close, remember) I think they would have won it.

And we in England can't complain about foreign imports too much - how many South Africans do we have in the squad? And it's for the whole game to develop world rugby - I agree the number of foreign players in France and England have exported professional standards, but more needs to be done. It will be good for the game when Fiji, Tonga, USA etc are talked about as real title contenders.

And as for 2011? The home team nearly always makes the final (and a real possibility this year) and it'd be a brave decision to bet against NZ at home though.

I agree about the haka though - has no place in a grown up sport. Just get out and play, for heavens sake...

[S Wilks]

The AB's have returned home today to a huge welcome.No derision or scorn witnessed at Chch International Airport just aroha. NZ has not let them come home as anything but young men who gave their all. Sadly for them on the day they did not win but AB rugby has always given us huge entertainment in NZ and will continue to do so.

[confidence mkharhi]

i am a south african u a english people talk too much course u just won against the aussies but the truth is u just got them at the bad day they played un usaual rugby that they dont normally do, if u have too look at ur games in the pool stages we beat u like hell and the way u won against USA, Samoa and Tonga didn't convice me that much, the name England won u the matches and now course u won against the aussies u talk too much and u were the same people talking abut how ur team sucks, do u honeestly just one game that u won like champions against the Aussies will change everything i dont think so, u dont have that strength that u can beat the french pack even i only see France and the Boks at the final and if u win by any luck and u ahve to play us again or Argentina if they can suprise by any chance as u suprised the Aussies and shocked the world by ur win, u will get a hooping again. just look at ur team after 2003 what did u achieve i understand u r world champions but its just by name the tri nations still rule the world rugby the ABS and the Aussies might be out of the world cup but that fate u achieved it only ends here (france) so look out for southern hemisphere winning the world cup again and one more thing is u cant score a try against top seeded teams u only rely on Jonny to score penalties u showed that against us (Boks) and against Aussies u can attack but cant score if Jonny's mood or morale is down that day what then.

[Brett Chapman]

Times on-line would do its credibility a favour if they hire a rugby writer with an ability to write using balanced and researched facts, NOT pompous, envious vitriolic opinions.
The writer seems to look at the color of someones skin to determine the nationality of that person. That is pure racism.
New Zealand is a country of immigrants, with people arriving hoping to begin a better life. One of the largest groups to come to N.Z. each year is British.

[Dennis]

Hard luck AB's,
You have every right to feel sour with the ref, the weather, the kit, the shape of the ball, Carters calf, forward passes. Wow so much to blame.

When the Lions played you a couple of Years ago you never threw a forward pass did you?

Never killed a ruck, did you?
(Mr McCaw has been diving over the top for Years)

You ref's are best in the world aren't they? (joke)

Never spear tackled anyone with nothing but causing injury as an intent did you?

As far as I'm concerned you got everything you deserved, so stop whinging and start looking forward to YOUR world cup, you know the one Japan should have had.

You have even got time to perfect that funny little dancey thing you do before the game, at least your the best at that, far better than Tonga and Fiji.

[Ian McIntosh]

As a sideline to you commercial excitement you have insulted quite a few people. You exploit peoples ignorance, you exploit what scant knowledge of Pasifika you have to decorate your story with posturing. You define them as ignorant and vulnerable. You define them as commodities. You have uprooted them from their largest cultural stronghold in Auckland and redrawn the map. You have even renamed them. You know that even to infer that they were stolen and bang, it is questionable to readers that 150,000 "south sea islanders" have the right to play for the country they played in as children.
Cheers palagi!

[Helen]

Mark Souster - what extremely tasteless piece of journalism. Being a kiwi living in London over the past 7 years I have immence pride in supporting the All Blacks. I think that you will find that the majority of New Zealanders don't talk the All Blacks up - its the rest of the world that does! I also enjoy the English rugby but the only thing that lets it down is the rubbish that comes from the UK's press and commentators mouths as soon as you win one match!

[DJE]

I am a proud Kiwi and a lifelong All Blacks fan so first let me congratulate the French and their fans for an outstanding spectacle on Saturday night. Les Blues were immense. With respect to All Black excuses, there should be no complaints from a side who failed to set up for a drop goal or have a drop goal strategy and could not win despite 70% possession in the second half. However I am still proud of the way the team conducted themselves and as for the planning strategy - it would have been widely lauded had the ABs won.

Many NZders will be wondering where all this online anti -ABs vitriol is coming from but not all of it is without some justification. There are aspects of New Zealand rugby that are disheartening. Myopic journalism and opinion is as prevalent in NZ as it appears to be in the Times and it is the opinions of such writers and fans that do nothing for the reputation of the NZ game. Reading a NZ paper and listening to supporters' views after an All Blacks test is frankly embarrassing at times and it doesnt help when even intelligent and well-respected men like David Kirk write an unbalanced article.

I also feel we could do more to help the Pacific Islands -such as tests in the Islands but these options are never taken. And yes, at times we can be over sensitive about the haka to the point that it seems childish. As much as I love the All Blacks it is wrong to believe that NZ rugby is without blame for some of the criticism it receives.

Yet the English (and those non-English journalists writing in English papers) need to realise why they and their teams receive the flack that they do. The first point is ignorance. I am not going to go over the 'pilaging of the Pacific Islands' because any writer who persists in referring to them as the 'South Sea Islands' displays the very sort of colonial arrogance that fuels such ignorance. That label is so antiquated that it is no suprise that the writers who use it obviously have no idea about the history of the Pacific Islands and the cultural make up of NZ. You might as well start calling them 'noble savages' or 'natives' - and its frustrating that this phrase is now so widespread amongst the UK commentators.

Secondly, arrogance, which while prevalent in the NZ rugby public, is more acute in England in particular. Figures such as Alistair Campbell (surely the values he portrayed are the diametric opposite of what is supposed to be the essence of rugby), and actions such as performing a victory lap after drawing a test do you no favours.

Thirdly, you can't expect not to attract criticism when you rightly proclaim yourself world champions, then fail to play anything like that in the ensuing years. Yes the RWC is the absolute pinnacle and the England team of 2003 were great but the tests between cups do hold some weight, and to constantly insinuate that they don't matter seems to be a way to gloss over the fact that your team has played poorly since 2003. Lastly, I feel it is about the style of rugby played, and you need only ask a neutral about that. I find it rather ironic that the French, who have arguably done more to upset NZ in the recent past than any other NH rugby nation (read Raindow Warrior, nuclear testing in the South Pacific, RWC 1999 and now 2007) are not subjected to the same nationalistic criticism. Perhaps it is because there is a healthy dose of reciprocated respect and a style of rugby that is genuinely appreciated.

Both parties are at fault, and while both parties remain ignorant, we will be constantly subjected to poor quality journalism and boorish fans on both sides. That will only be to the detriment of the game. Saying that this is just banter or part of sport is a cop-out. There is so much to analyse and debate without stooping to ill- informed pot shots. In the meantime I can only hope and wait four...more...years.

[Asterix]

I agree with a number of comments posted here. I was living in NZ during the 99 World Cup and witnessed the planning of victory parades in Auckland and Wellington closely followed by the abuse of the returning team at Auckland airport after France had wiped the floor with them. I suspect the same is true this time around. Apologies to every decent Kiwi out there but a very large portion of the New Zealand public and press are nasty, snide, one eyed, whinining, tantrum throwing children. The sort of children you really don't want in your own kids class. Funny though how everyone loves the Polynesians. Happy, hard playing, likeable fellas that they are. Draws me to conclude that it must be the Scottish influence that makes Kiwis as mean spirited and tight as they are.

[David Johnston]

Holy cow! Did someone get out of bed on the wrong side or what! Do you actually like rugby at all? I have to agree with Neil that the personal glee taken at the French defeat of NZ is so irrational - almost xenophobic.

First off - 1) French rugby - you've got to love it (and fear it all in the same breath). What a game! I'm sorry to see the ABs go, but what a great game of rugby. 2) Good on ya England! No one likes to see a team so down on themselves as the English were. To see them come out at last and use the forward power they've always had - another great game of rugby.

As an AB fan I am sorry to see them go - but the rugby in both the Eng/Oz and NZ/France games was great rugby - which I think is what all this is about. It's injected fresh life into the tournament and I for one am looking forward to the semis.

I look forward to having a few beers wtih French and English supporters come the next world cup in NZ. The Lions supporters were a great bunch of poeple - universally admired the length of the country. That is what I think of when it comes to rugby - not articles like this.

[jeddah99]

I hitchhiked around NZ for 6 months in 1985. In those days even the Kiwis would tell you that their country was about just three things - rugby, racing and beer. Now we can add a fourth: a complete and utter inability to accept defeat gracefully.

The All Greys' pick-and-go rugby in the second half against France was about the most boring - and futile - style of rugby I have ever seen.
The greatest team in the world? Not against Scotland they weren't - how many minutes on the Scottish line and their top players couldn't score?
Against France they folded under pressure, just like Australia's fabled souffle scrum. The ABs were neither tough enough, resolute enough or imaginative enough to win, and the legendary Dan Carter was no more than an overrated hasbeen.

Thank God we have seen the last of these pompous poseurs with their comically-inflated egos. The rest of us can enjoy their excruciating misery for yet another 4 years!!

[Scott Petty]

and the the English wonder why the world hates them - wonderful losers, terrible winners.

[Rangi]

We're all still waiting for B.Laporte to comment on the refereeing in 'that' game, a strange silence it is indeed!

I think it's time we all laid off young Barnsey the ref, he's got the message big time on his ineptitude in 'that' game, but it's a sad affair when the master of all things refereeing Kiwi Paddy O'Brien conmends Barnes for his 'wonderful display' in the match and suggest to all and sundry to get a life on the matter!!

We all know you well Paddy and remember you as a fine referee, but please don't cover your own backside by saying Barnes reffed' a good game, because you know as well as us all that he had a shocker in a very important game in a very important competition.

It is imperative you as refereeing adjudicator must back your appointee to the match you have no choice, but please don't insult us by saying it's time we all as New Zealanders 'grew up' and moved on.

Sorry Paddy! it's not the point, and you know it.

Guess what?, the All Blacks are still number one in the World regardless and will remain so after the World Cup, and that's the way it should be as they are the pace setters, and the World Cup is not a true indication of the Worlds best team, as all teams do not play each other, and if the number one side gets knocked out, the best team can't win can it?

[andy capp]

im english and got into rugby in my early teens around the mid 80s when the dominant team of the time was the all blacks and they were fearsome and magnificent. i loved everything about the way they played from the brutality of it to their spirit and determination. it was everything that "pub team" england was not at the time. since then i have always admired the new zealand teams and their supporters for their appreciation of the game.

throughout the 90s i felt exactly the same even though the dominance was gone because the abs still personified rugby the way it should be. hard but always dignified regardless of results and an honesty when things went wrong.

with that in mind it was disappointing to see the way the psyche changed over the last few years (at least from an outsiders viewpoint) and i think this came in the run up to the 2003 world cup.

the cup became the obsession and reality went out the window. in england we knew we had to win a world cup to justify our world cup tag and we did it, even beating nz and aus in their own back yards, yet still nz claimed to be the best.
a lack of respect and woeful arrogance.

then the dreaded lions tour of 2005. the pre tour bitching by everyone in nz (based on a hatred of clive woodward) was sad to see and the smugness over getting away with the spear tackle was poor. and for those complaining of one missed forward pass by a ref just watch the 2nd test of that tour for the most inept and biased officiating over 80 mins i have ever seen (although i am in no way suggesting the lions were the better team or would have won).

this nz team carried on with the lack of respect of those around them and particularly for northern hemisphere rugby and i am afraid that for once a lot of people who genuinely love their rugby will not be sad to see the back of the abs this time.

for what its worth this article is over the top and embarrassing. the island poaching is minimal and the effect of economic migration in the same way that many sportsmen / women in britain come from asian and carribean decent for the same reason. please can we drop it as it is nothing but ignorance.

i still love to hear the thoughts of abs from generations gone by as they have a genuine passion and understanding of the game that nobody else has (perhaps bar some of the welsh greats). but this generation of abs could do with learning from their predecessors so the ab legend doesnt become a tiresome cliche.

after the lions tour of 93 fitzpatrick said about gavin hastings something like "he has the heart of a scotsman but the spirit of an all black". you knew what he meant and this lot could do with figuring out what it was.

[andy watterson]

like every ireland supporter i can admit where our team went wrong- too many over 30s and not enough quality back up as well as a reliance on a small number of players. NZ need to wke up to the fact that arrogance is where they fail.

[Alistair Hay]

Wow. All this hatred towards a team/nation. Ironic isn't it given the reaction to O'Neils 'hate England' comment?
I thought rugby fans were better than this. For me, I have played rugby all over the world and have forged nothing but friendship, not hatred.
I believe journalists have a moral responsibility for their words, Jones and Souster demonstrate a polemic centred around hubris.

[posty]

As a Kiwi I would like to thank all of the true sport loving English rugby fans who have made such gracious comments about the AB's. I will not comment on this piece as it is obviously the work of a somewhat intellectually impaired man.

Now listen to me English rugby fans I have great news for you: You will beat France on Saturday. The IRB have graciously given you an extra player. His name is Jonathan Kaplan. This new English player (descibed as a ref in some circles) has a history of only reffing one team if down the track it will help his beloved Boks win a major championship. Mark my words France will score the tries but Jonny will get at least 7 or 8 shots on goal.
Remember that France only conceded 2 penalties the other night (none in the last 50 minutes of that game). On the weekend with a different ref with a different agenda they will concede at least 10.
You read it here first from a true Kiwi rugby lover.
Posty

[Gen]

Mils Muliana moved to Invercargill aged 2.
Sitiveni Sivivatu moved to New Zealand when he was 15 and attended high school in Auckland.
Joe Rokocoko migrated to New Zealand aged 5.
I can’t find when Rodney So'oialo moved to NZ but he played at fullback for Wellington Secondary Schools as a fifth-former, so he can’t have been past his mid teens.
Isaia Toeava attended De La Salle college in Auckland and played for their First XV from 2001 (aged 15) to 2003.

As so on and so forth. I get so sick of people accusing the All Blacks of pillaging Pacific Island talent without understanding the Auckland is a Polynesian city. Yes I’m sure there is a flexing of superior rugby muscle by the Abs in scouting NZ talent but again the lure of playing in the black jersey and potentially maximising your earnings as a rugby player can’t be discounted.

Also if you look at the PI teams you’ll find just as many players eligible to play for New Zealand as NZ has players eligible to play in the islands.

[edward vale]

The press do not represent their country. Neither the England team in 2003, nor the ABs today, are arrogant. In each case it was the journos looking for readers - and it can be entertaining, let's face it! The English no more "hate" than do the Aussies, or Kiwis. We need a good SPORTING rivalry - as who cares unless it "matters." Roll on Saturday and 2011.

[Chris]

I have to admit I agree with some of this comment. As we have seen with the death threat "jokes" against the referee of this match New Zealanders can be deeply unpleasant when it comes to Rugby. To complain about a forward pass when "Kiwi lateral" is the universal definition of this manouver is rich beyond belief. Furthermore their guff about "loads of South Sea islanders born, live, went to school" is just that. Nobody includes players of Polynesian descent like Jonah Lomu who were born in New Zealand, they do count the numbers of people who were born and spent the best part of their youth in the Pacific Islands. In the last match New Zealand played before the world cup 7 out of the 21 squad were south sea islanders - Sitiveni Sivivatu, Rokocoko (Granted he lived in New Zealander from 5), Toeava, Muliaina, So'oialo, Schwalger. Furthermore the Super 14 players have to be eligable for New Zealand and Australia or they don't get a contract; basically you either play for New Zealand and a Super 14 franchise or don't play at all and your ability to feed your family suffers as a consequence (which is one reason so many of the Pacific Islanders play in Europe). New Zealand has raped the Pacific islands for players.

At the same time it needs to be remembered that New Zealand aren't the only ones poaching players. Granted the dammage isn't as bad to other nations as the players the Northern Hemisphere teams poach are usually from one of the top 6 or seven nations (South Africa is a nation that particularly suffers, but with their quota system is in part a self inflicted injury). Whilst you point to the fact that New Zealand do nothing for world Rugby except expecting us to be dazzled by their running brilliance and the unpleasant Haka, I don't think that Ireland can exactly be shown to be the givers of world Rugby. The only nation that does is England who set up the loss making Churchill Cup to boost US and Canadian Rugby, whose supporters have a charity that gives Rugby kit to Eastern European kids and who donated half their gate money to Roumania the last time they played. I'm pretty sure Ireland haven't done anything like that.

At the end of the day a lot of this is true - viz Fitzpatricks "We even let Portugal score a try against us for God's sake. We should have been more ruthless, aiming for 200 points against Portugal and scoring 150 at least" - mere minows like Portugal shouldn't dare to score against the Mighty All Blacks and should be at the recieving end of a whalloping. This and other quotes prove how sportsmanship has long disappeared from the Land of the Long White Cloud. However you shouldn't say it, let the Kiwis continue to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread and that they're the height of sporting sophistication. It means they'll keep going home without the trophy.

[martin Vermolen]

Its not just the English who are happy to see the back of the AB's. I live in Ireland and we have not forgotten the disgraceful spear tackle on Brian O' Driscoll, the complete lack of any sort of apology or sanction, nor the complete lack of respect shown by the Kiwi's for Northern hemisphere teams (even Martin Johnson's team of world cup winning warriors) or the touring Lions and their fans. Whenever England come to play in Ireland there is a great deal at stake but there is always respect for the English team and their supporters. You moaning bunch of bad losers could learn a lesson from this.

[Gen]

Whata disgraceful piece of subjective, vitriolic journalism.

Yes we are all bitterly disappointed in Saturday's result, but the difference between New Zealand and England is that we will back the team through thick and thin. That's why many promising players choose to stay in NZ for the chance to wear the black jersey, rather than re-locate overseas earlier for longer, more lucrative careers in wealthy English and European clubs. To say it's all about the money for New Zealand rugby is ignorant, untruthful and frankly ridiculous.

As for arrogance - yes we were confident, maybe we were arrogant. We thought (along with most rugby writers and betting agencies) that we were the strongest team going into this tournament. But there were very few All Black supporters who were blase about the prospect of meeting France int he quarter final. Our fears, unfortunately, were well founded.

Good luck to the host nation of the 2007 RWC. They played with verve and passion and deserved to win.

I will still be heading to Paris this weekend. I won't see the game i hoped to see - but I'll wear my black jersey and wave le tricolore. C'est la vie.

[Charlie Summers]

I think the majority of the comments made aren't really worth talking about and serve no purpose.
New Zealand played a shocker after 3 warm up matches against second rate opposition, they will need to learn to perform on the biggest stage when the pressure on.
With regard to the comments about Australia, I seem to remember them baiting us before the final in 2003, but after the match they were magnanimous in defeat as the vast majority were again on Saturday. I personnaly have nothing but respect for Australia and enjoy their psycological warefare prior to every big sporting encounter.

[Mick Enright]

All this inciteful writing of Shuster and Jones has achieved it's goals. Sold a couple of papers and got us all going. To your corners gentlemen!

[Atual Rayani]

It is sad that a sports columnist for the Times should launch such a vile attack on New Zealand rugby on the basis of one defeat.The AllBlacks have given true rugby supporters much entertainment over the past four years with their style of rugby and commitment , their achievements in the Lions test matches tri nations and Grand slam have been immense. Mark Sousters account is very personal against New Zealand and he should perhaps use his rugby knowledge to better effect in informing those interested with his snippets of political knowledge. As a Welshman I like the style of rugby that we play and New Zealand play eventhough we lose in knockout rounds. All Countries should have to qualify for the WC final stages which should perhaps then be 2 groups of 6 teams aiming for the play offs. Thsi would encourage more entertaining rugby in the quest for bonus points instead of 'lets bury it in the scrum ' type of rugby.After all Argentina s win at Twickenham will remind Mark Souster of the flailty of such an approach.

[Ben Black]

Dear Whingeing All Blacks

Here's a different angle for you. The reason lots of us in England LOVE the fact that you have been dumped out is that underneath it all we don't understand why you seem to ahte us so much. We understand why the Aussies get so p***** at anything English, and I guess the Scots as well. But what have we done to you guys? That's why there is all this bitterness. You have a team and a style that we envy and all we crave in return is a tiny bit of respect. We kind of feel we have done our bit for World Rugby.

My love affair with All Black rugby stopped when I first heard Murray Mexted commentate and when I went to see England play before the last world cup. NZ fans in NZ were aggressive, patronizing, opinionated idiots. It's the only place in the world where oposing fans are not made welcome. So from this Little Englander it's all rather enjoyable...

[sampson]

maoris are polynesian. maoris came from around the pacific (hawaiki) to new zealand nearly 1000 years ago.
europeans (pakeha) arrived to new zealand around 200 years ago.
seems fitting to me that an all black rugby team be fielding polynesian players.
my father immigrated from samoa to new zealand as a young boy. he is very proud of his samoan routes and "very proud to be a kiwi". like many other polynesians living in the largest polynesian city in the world, auckland.
i wonder how many non polynesian all blacks are eligible to play for a northern hemisphere rugby team?

[Crusaders.Fan]

These Irish and Welsh lick-spittles are really quite funny. A few days ago they were bleating about John O'Neil using the word "Hate".

Now, NZers love O'Neil about the same as Sir Clive (which is close to zero). We have learnt to ignore him like a bad smell in the room.

But how can you complain about him using "Hate" once (taken somewhat out of context) and then spew-forth a column that would make Ricky Ponting look like Mother Theresa?

My, my some of you NHers have very, very short memories.

[neil]

when revenue sharing is guaranteed, NZ RFU will have the means to retain its best players depriving U & France of the the talent they are desporately short of. If the ABs are so hated, why is it thet EIS&W and France delight in full stadiums when they play. Nobody draws the crowd like NZ

[dave]

You do realize that England beat Australia right? The glee you take at New Zealands demise can only be considered envy. I guess this fills the pages until England lose and you can start hacking them.

As for taking talent from the islands, nz like London is a multicultural society, Auckland is the largest polynesian city in the world. To suggest the NZRU has the foresight to invite a 4 yr olds parents to move country's because there son is destined to be an All Black is giving them far too much credit.

The All Blacks didn't become a bad team overnight, 43 wins from 49 tests indicates that they surely have quality somewhere on the park. This of course includes zero losses to Northern Hemisphere sides, combined or otherwise, up until the quarterfinal. Perhaps thats why you feel the need to cast vitriolic remarks now? Perhaps you must jump on this win as if it were your team who beat New Zealand because its been 4 yrs since that happened?

[Kiwi in Aussie]

Agree with crusty. Lets cut the crap. i for one have just started planning the RWC2011 in NZ with mates (I re-iterate "mates") from around the world including English. Irish and Aussies. Crusty I'll join you for that pint mate and I really urge all nthn hemisphere supporters to come down to NZ and have a good time. As crusty says rugby is above this garbage or at least it should be. To whoever wins this RWC 2007..... good on ya!! We'll see you for the defence in 2011 in the land ofthe long white cloud. And as a P.S.....for those bagging the haka I say 2 things. Rugby is about tradition so when you visit NZ why not learn a little of the culture regarding the local NZ aborigines (I think their called Maori!!) and why the haka is important

[The Landlord]

Derby: yes, I know O'Neill is an Australian. I was comparing the NZ AND Australian press to this piece, which is no worse than anything any NZer or Australian has come up with in the past. You're obviously a bit of a self-hater (or just ignorant), but I am not. I just like really sticking it to people who've stuck it to me in the past. It's great, and the anti-ref bleating makes it all the more delicious!

[Paul Warden]

I, for one, welcome this contribution. In the last few years I have witnessed New Zealand's approach to the game on the pitch degenerate to the point where it matches the attitude off the pitch. It's not professionalism. It's not playing to the limit. It's cheating! I hope that the Graham Henry era will be remembered for the waste of rugby talent he perpetuated. New Zealand rugby; you got the management, team and performance you deserve and on Saturday, you got a referee who stopped your back-row laying on the wrong side, who prevented them living off-side and you knew no other way. As a boy, I marvelled at All Black rugby. My one wish for this World Cup was to see the All Blacks knocked out. Reassess yourselves. Recover from Henry and his crass attitude to the game. World rugby needs you.

[Crusaders.Fan]

Ally Grey,

as a Kiwi I should say that Umanga and Mealamu should have been suspended. They weren't (as assessed by a SA official). Game on.

as a Kiwi the yellow card against McAlister and forward pass were assessed by by an English official. Game on.

Get over it man. It will do wonders for your health

[Richard Barker]

As an Englishman, may i apologise for this bitter, nasty article. To me, NZ are still the best side in the world, who lost a very close one off game against a decent Frane side, driven on by home support. Some of their rugby is a joy to watch and no other team can match them on their day.

I fail to see where this arrogant tag which has suddenly appeared has come from - rugby union is their number 1 sport by miles, something they are, quite rightly, very proud of and i really dont see the need for rubbing their noses in it.

Cant we in the Northern Hemisphere be a little more gracious in victory and stop this xonophobic journalism, more often seen in tabloid football pages.

[Crusaders.Fan]

Gracious winners?

BTW it was the French who beat the All Blacks, not the English.
I know the times has problems getting their facts right so I thought I should point this out

[JohnH]

Gloating, boasting and jingoism from so-called supporters (almost all of whom, I'll bet, have never even touched a rugger ball) are just signs of unhappy, stunted frustrated little lives. This sort of attitude has no place in a man's game. Grow up, or stick to Premier League soccer!

[Tani Wha]

Why do all these so called pilfered polynesions speak with new zealand accents? Because they are born and/or bred in New Zealand. I am sick of people saying NZ are plundering/pilfering the pacific. Which city has the largest population of polynesions/pacific islanders? Auckland does. If they weren't born here, they are definately bred here, play school rugby, club rugby and then super 12/14 before All Black selection. They live there whole lives in NZ as do their children and grand children (I am a 2nd generation NZer of Cook Island Maori descent from the island of Aitutaki and the village of Ureia, my grandmother sent my mother here for better schooling like many other polynesion families). There are no scouts going to Samoa, Tonga, Fiji (or the Cook Islands) in search of players they come to NZ.

English and French clubs however which go out of their way to scout these players are doing the true pillaging of the pacific. I will laugh when Vainikolo plays for England, which on current for will be soon. Finally an English back exciting to watch.

[Stewart]

Come on guys, cut it out. The rugby was great this weekend. NZ have one of the best teams of all time and they lost a close and thrilling knock-out game. I was at Cardiff and despite being shattered by the result, the NZ fans were gracious and spirited. Cut out the bile in the press box - because it's not out there in the stands. There's just a love for this beautiful game of ours.

[Andrew Miller]

It's nice to read some generous comments from a handful of English & other fans, true rugby fans who I'm sure have loved watching the ABs over years, despite the fact they've mostly lost :).

Some may have even visited NZ & I hope they enjoyed it were made to feel welcome.

For others so desperate to see our downfall I've got some bad news, go look at your clubs teams loads of Kiwis, go look at the PI nation almost all who grew up & learnt to play in NZ, have a look at the restults of the past few years. What makes you think this one off incredibly close defeat is somehow going to change what happens in most international matches played?

I can take a defeat, we were beaten the world doesn't end, but some of you really need to take a hard look at yourselves & ask why your view of a sport is driven by such bitterness & bile. It's not like you've even praised the French team, merely tried to chop down a side many of you have never beaten in 100+ years of trying.

I'm immensely proud of this AB team, for most of the past few years they've been brilliant, at times taking the game to a new level. I enjoy watching rugby, and learning you can't win all the time is part of that, I get to watch All Blacks all the time, might i suggest finding something to actually enjoy instead of merely hacking others down.

[Kevin the Kiwi]

Some people are still waffling on about O'Driscoll from the Lions tour. Get a life, he was soft anyway and played so bloody poorly in this world cup he would be lucky to get a run in the bottom team in the Super 14, oh and what a really good World Cup Ireland had.

Steven Jones couldn't write anything decent about his own team because they were so damn pathetic. Don't worry Steven, they will probably have to appoint a NZ coach to get you guys off the bottom of the six nations. Was it not Italy in front of you.

You guys talk about NZ raiding the pool of talent, I do remember Shane Howarth playing for Wales and was there not a number of Australians playing for Ireland in the past. Get over it, it is only a game.

Maybe you will send a decent team out to NZ and Australia in the coming years and show us some repsect.

[richard madison]

How sad is a lot of what I have read. Is no-one old enough, or have never been told by parents, to remember the delightful mass, maybe emotional, singing of "Now Is The Hour" on the final All-Black v England matches at the Twickenham before they left the UK? Regardless of results.

What a sad change of attitudes. Our loss.

[Dave Hogg]

Didn't really like the tone of this piece - not really needed.
The English and French put in pretty good performances while the ABs and ozzies didn't. Two pretty close games which could have gone either way so no new order I think.
As an Englishman I say a bit of graciousness in victory would be all that's needed.

[Geoff Woods]

It's quite simple really - New Zealand peak in the period between World Cups, when other countries are in the process of change and development. New Zealand's success in these periods gives them an aura of invincibility that carries over into the World Cup group stages, when they are pitted against inferior teams. Their failure to progress stems from an inability (refusal?) to fathom the depth of passion that is required to succeed at the knock-out level, which is attributable to overwhelming success in the period between World Cups. They will not succeed at the World Cup until they understand this.

[Ally Gray]

I think anyone who has watched a Test match in New Zealand as an opposing fan would have to agree with a lot of this article. I have never been so surprised at how such a welcoming bunch of people can suddenly be transformed into the most arrogant and ugly group of individuals. The behaviour of your fans during the last Lions tour was disgraceful. The jeering and booing of the Lions supporters and O'Driscoll was simply disgusting. The fact that none of you can agree that Umaga should have been banned says it all. One eyed when it comes to rugby I'm afraid. Jog on

[Kieron McCann]

All Black vs Ireland

Games Played: 20
Irish Victories: 0

Need I say more?

[Kiwi in Aussie]

Whats with all the bitterness?. As a kiwi I'm hurting deep about the loss to France. But one thing that reading these columns has enlightened me with is that there is a magnitude of bitterness from all sides. If you can't see at the end of the day that rugby is the winner then I'm afraid that rugby will be the loser. All I can say is I hope this is still the game they play in heaven, but I've an awful feeling that just like the mess this world is in......God ain't doin anymore reffing!! Rugby brothers in arms lets have discussion and debate but not bitterness and open hostility!!!!

[Frank McIntosh]

Great article. Kiwis got what they deserved. They just cant accept France won fair and square. Get over it for gods sake New Zealand. From now its all downhill NZ rugby

A gloating Scotsman

[Roger Barrington]

Congratulations guys. Pretty much spot on! It is about time somebody had the guts to say this! Take note N.Z. and Australia and stop bleeding the game dry!

[David]

This is so stupid! I mean apart from anything else, it is just full of gross factual errors. I remember once thinking The Times was a world class newpaper, but this is just dross.

I don't want to repeat the valid points already made about changing patterns of international migration and sport (would The Times say Monty Panesar is not "English"? Of course not!) Most Pasifika players for NZ (not "South Sea Islanders" as your subs so often like to dub them) are BORN IN NEW ZEALAND. They are New Zealanders. Please at least do your homework.

By far the most amusing thing about this column however is the claim that the greater economic power of the northern hemisphere is being turned into power on the field. Hello?! Am I the only one who heard the Welsh say they were heading home with their "heads held high" after narrowing losing to ... er... Fiji? (Does anyone remember the Welsh teams of the 1970s?) A friend emailed me to tell me how exicted he'd been watching Wales beat... Japan. Ireland were awful. Barely able to beat... let me put this in caps to help you... GEORGIA. Scotland were a disgrace. I think the worst 6-Nations team overall.

England were mostly appalling. Only a narrow win over a weak and overconfident Australian team has saved them from being remembered as the worst ever "champions" who were crushed by the Boks, given good runs by TONGA (population 116,000) and SAMOA (population 180,000) and that rugby powerhouse the USA. I'm sorry, but was the person writing this column reading any of the British press about the English team BEFORE the Aussie win? What a change of heart!

I have always given France honorary Southern Hemipshere status as a rugby nation. But even they have done pretty poorly in their own cup, notwithstanding their superb performance on the weekend.

So, this is the "new rugby world order?" What a power house of nations. I actually hope France wins their own World Cup, but if your deluded correspondent thinks this will usher in a new era of northern dominance then he is sadly mistaken.

[simon in auckland]

Rich

Clearly you know nothing about NZ's ethnic make-up and immigration history. If people of Pacific Island heritage are only in NZ to play rugby, how come we ended up with 150,000 women? What are they doing here? Having babies for the All Blacks? That's some conspiracy.

[Rich]

To B.D. Calhoun,

They all have West Indian ancestors mate, but they are English and were before their football talents were discovered. There is the difference.

[B.D. Calhoun]

On Saturday no sooner had the final whistle gone at the Millennium stadium Graham Henry was already looking for work knowing full well that for a rugby mad nation this defeat was too much for them to bare and the parade and the chants of "four more years" will have to wait for another time, At the moment his reputation is in shreds as well as the knighthood which he no doubt would have received from the queen if NZ had lifted the trophy, yet is it all really fare!

It wasn't long before thethe knifes were out and the "know it all's" in NZ i.e. David Kirk and Colin Meads were leading the criticism. Yes Henry did tout for the coaches job, he had four years to prepare a young squad that was hungry for success and he was given great leeway back in N.Z and all his demands were met. As a consequence he stepped on a few toes and when you step on people just as in politics you make enemies. Clive Woodward the former England coach experience this. When England were shown the door in the same stage in the 1999 world cup there were calls for him to be sacked. He was saved only because it was considered that he had not been at the helm long enough.

However, although Henry never said " judge me on the world cup" as Woodward did, the fact that Henry never admonished those in NZ who by the summer of 2004 crowned the all blacks as the "real world champions" after a two test demolition of England only added to the shock on Saturday. England were poor holders of the world cup and a string of defeats only enhanced this opinion. Despite this immature view and the sneering towards the northern hemisphere, in particular ignoring that England team's feat in 2003, from this point onwards it was off to the races. Henry's all blacks racked up four Bledesloe cups, three tri-nations wins, a three test defeat of Clive Woodward’s British Lions and a home-nation grand slam in 2005 with in effect two different IX's alternating in the four tests. From 2004 to last Friday only four tests were lost and none of them to any of the northern Hemisphere teams!

Yet that is not good enough, now rugby success is judged on a couple of games every four years and getting the team name engraved on a trophy only 20 years old. The international game is so rich with tradition and there are so many great international rivalries I couldn’t even write them all! No international match is a friendly and there are great rugby occasions every year. Is being world cup winners all it's cracked up to be?

Be that as it may many are asking now what happened in Cardiff? Henry should have been alarmed after the French lost to Argentina and the likely hood of playing them in Wales. NZ had not played a competitive match against top opposition since August while by this time France had been battle hardened. In addition, the news of about a dozen top N.Z. internationals announcing that they were leaving for lucrative contracts in Europe in the months leading up to the world cup did not sit well with me. It came across as arrogant and lacking commitment to the cause, the players were thinking too far ahead ! To me it's like a sprinter easing up on the track and looking across when he think that he won the race only to be pipped on the line by somebody who leans forward!

What ever effect all of the above had is any bodies guess, but as any team will testify you can't win all the time, maybe the all blacks peaked last year and were over cooked. Many harp on about it being 1999, but to be fair the games don't compare, in 1999 N.Z. imploded and in the end were humiliated. Although a quarter final exit is in it's self an embarrassment the N.Z. performance on Saturday wasn't. Yes they did seem void of ideas and were also tactically inept, but their commitment and spirit were up there, all the statistics with possession and territory is a testament to that. They were only a penalty or a drop goal away from victory against a very committed French team and if they had done it, we would all be singing a different song!

[rickster]

What do Shaun Wright-Phillips, Micah Richards, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand and Sol Campbell all have in common?

Well they’re all players in the English football squad…

And they’re all players of West-Indian descent. Pillaged if you will.

If you're going to complain about the All Blacks stealing Pacific Islanders you should stop your football team stealing players from the Caribbean!

[simon in auckland]

As a New Zealander I'd just like to thank the many non-Kiwis who have expressed their distaste for this sad, petty, ill-informed article. There is plenty in NZ rugby that deserves criticism, but I don't think this article gets anywhere near the mark. Anyway, enjoy the rest of the World Cup which, national bias aside, has been the best yet. Look forward to seeing you all visiting our (apparently wicked) country in 2011.

[Thomas Wahia]

"They do nothing to foster the development of the world game, think only of themselves"

What would the countless New Zealanders who have played and coached in Europe, who have added to the game there, think of the above sentence?

It's the fans of Europe who will be entertained by the likes of McAllister, Mauger, Howlett, Spencer, Reihana, Jack, Haymen etc...not New Zealands.

The fact that 27 Kiwis were playing for different countries at this World 'bloody' Cup makes a complete mockery of his statement.

Most of all Souster should read his article out to the likes of Pat Lam or Bryan Williams or the thousands of people with Island heritage whom are proud to call New Zealand their home and ask them what they think!

Or better still get his feeble arse down to somewhere like Ponsonby rugby club and experience something money can never buy. That is different communities - Maori, Pakeha, Samoan, Tongan, Fijian - coming together as one for the love of rugby.

That means more than a World Cup win and is something your posion pen Souster can never touch!

And when you hear the cow bells of Waikato ring at a Wasps game ask a true rugby man like Shaun Edwards why they do so.
You might want to think about what he has to say

[andrew llewellyn]

Bad sports? Goodnight Mr Pot from Mr Kettle.

[Russell Brown]

"Rangi , your strength in depth comes from players who are not New Zealanders ..."

Oh for goodness sake: this myth again. This analysis might help you, assuming you're interesting in anything so mundane as facts:

http://publicaddress.net/default,4471.sm

Of the eight players in the All Black squad who were not born in New Zealand, all are naturalised New Zealanders and all but one (Sivivatu, who attended secondary school in New Zealand) came here as young children with their families, and have never played rugby anywhere else. New Zealand is itself a Pacific island, remember (indeed, 12 of the Samoan squad were actually born in NZ).

On the other hand, 11 of the Irish squad were born outside Ireland. Perhaps Mr Souster could comment.

[Matt Main]

If you're going to drive the "All Black Bashing Band Wagon" around town, which is obviously the only sweet chariot you own, then you've got to pull that narrow mind out of your derrière.
The French beat us, which is really between us and them and has nothing to do with your inferiority complex.

[Morgo]

The French played an intense and insightful game (albeit mainly in the second half) and deserved to win. The belligerent pick and drives from the Kiwi pack in the final moments of the game gave a perfect parallel to their mono-syllabic pie-munching supporters in the stands: both players and supporters open mouthed with no idea.
France winning the RWC would do wonders for so many evolving rugby nations. Argentina and Italy (along with Georgia and Romania) would be nowhere without the financial clout of French club rugby. More of the French public supporting their local club in the wake of a RWC win would mean these nations players' having more financial security and allow their respective national player base to grow. And this is the differene Kiwi fan: they go home to play for their countries. For France to do it against a great rugby side with the worst record for protectionism and plundering? Sweet.

[Hughie]

Although the language and style could be regarded as intemperate, I have to agree you are pretty much spot on with the facts Mr Souster.

[Wilko03]

I had the unfortunate experience of watching the New Zealand v France match in a pub containing a number of fired up Kiwi chokers. I can confirm that, just like the National Rugby Team, its supporters are irrational and terribly poor (though well practiced) at losing with dignity. Unfortunately, the night ended with the Kiwi boys attempting to prove their manly prowess at the expense of some celebrating England Rugby supporters, including my brother, who ended up in Casualty. I have greatly enjoyed reading every article covering the delicious exit of such a pathetic little team its supporters. Learn to play rugby like gentlemen, learn to engage the Rugby-playing world, and you may well learn how to win like men... The worst footnote to the well deserved defeat is the NZ Herald reporting domestic violence surging in the aftermath of the game. How shameful! Guys - listen - you haven't won since 1987 (without the super power SA), and as long as you act like this, you deserve to lose. GOOD RIDDANCE!!

[Rob Thompson Tauranga NZ]

Take a chill pill Souster. The AB's may be down but they will be back. Congratulations to both sides for a fantastically exciting game, in spite of the appalling display of refereeing from what's his name Barnes. I'm gutted that NZ couldn't prevail, but thats "world cup" rugby for you.

[davo]

The torrent of bile pouring forth from Jones and Soutter is astounding. They must have been written in the heat of the moment. They both should have taken their pills and a little time before they put fingers to keyboard. For god sake the England/Oz and AB/France were great tense dramas. Just 2 points separated the teams in both games ( just 2 points! ) and could have gone either way. They have certainly enlivened this World Cup. Get a grip guys - you're going to look back on those two postings at some stage with severe embarassment ( well, I hope you do ) !

[James]

Such a shame to read a disgraceful column like that after watching one of the most intense, closely-fought and thrilling matches in world cup history. The New Zealanders threw everything at the French who were nothing short of magnificent in their resistance and the execution of their game plan. It is appalling that Souster couldn't summon an ounce of the magnanimity that Richie McCaw and Graham Henry showed in their after match press conference. There was not a word of an excuse, not a word about the referee (who may well have cost the All Blacks the match) but only praise for the French performance and acknowledgement that the better side had won on the day. Souster's inability to find anything but scorn and vitriol in the wake of a great sporting occasion disgraces our sport, this newspaper and his own reputation.

He has obviously never interviewed any of the All Blacks or he would have found that instead of arrogant they are humble, self-effacing and respectful of their opponents. If they are arrogant, they are arrogant in the same way that Roger Federer, Tiger Woods or the Brazilian football team are arrogant - that is, they have confidence in their ability and therefore expect themselves to be able to produce victories. Of course they arrived at the world cup with confidence - they have won everything put before over the last three years, just as England (rightly) arrived in Sydney 2003 with confidence.

To suggest, as Souster does, that world rugby would better off without the All Blacks is utterly ridiculous. The All Blacks have taken rugby to a new level since 2003 and the fact that other nations have closed the gap is for the benefit of the game. Souster diatribe is nothing more the narrow-minded garbage and it insults everything the game stands for.

Congratulations to France for a mighty victory. Commiserations to New Zealand for showing class in defeat - something this journalist is completely without.

[Nick Dixon]

Kieron,
I have no doubt Tana Umanga was a very fairminded individual in 1993 but the All Blacks "mind set" had obviously permeated his skin. Tana or one of his team mates were under instruction to knobble BOD nothing so terrible in that but the fact remains no apology was forthcoming . It's not what happens on the pitch so much as how you deal with the fallout ; something the AB's have got to deal with. In the real world it's done with a pint and a chat after the match.In the rarified atmosphere of test rugby it is done with lawyers and pr people, perhaps Tana should have gone back to basics.If I were the marketing director of Adidas I would be wondering if I'd nailed my flag to the right mast .

[Interested...not]

the title of this clowns last note was "Top five rugby totty" that about says it all....leading rugby writer indeed!

[Kieron McCann]

Nick,

Tana Umanga won the Pierre de Coubertin Trophy for fair play 1n 1993.

We can all cite examples of unsporting play, Danny Grewcock is one such example.

The point is that this kind of bile does nothing for the game and merely ferments more spite and aggression.

Good luck to England in their coming game. I'm sure you wouldnt take it so well if they were get knocked out and a similar article written about them?

[The Landlord]

From the Australian or NZ press, this sort of swingeing, vitriolic attack would be par for the course. Hate? Try anything spouted by John O'Neill in the last couple of weeks. (And he's no journo - only the chief of the ARU.) Still, good to see an Englander with enough balls to say something that really, *really* upsets the southern hemisphere (and careful, Kiwis, he might just have a vicious left hook).

There's never been any love lost between Englans, Oz and NZ in sport, nor is there much love lost on any other level these days. What "special relationship" there was, rooted in cultural and historical commonality, is withering away.

[Nick Dixon]

Kieron Mccann,
The abject failure of Tana Umaga to apologise to Rugby folk in general not necessarily Brian o' Driscoll and many other episodes of gamesmanship too numerous to mention is what myself and the rest of the supporters of this wonderful game are on about .Nobody would behave like that at any rugby club I know of, so why do the bloody All Blacks think they can get away with it . There's just too much evidence for the prosecution over previous years and if the call is "your just bringing up ancient history " ; yes we are because the rest of us have had a bellyfull.

[Mitch]

I was at the France v All Blacks game and I saw an absolute humdinger. Two sides who wanted to make the semi more than anything bashed into each other like two worlds colliding. Two tries each and just a missed kick seperated them when the final whistle went. The teams did their countries proud by giving it everything. Well done to France for the win and well done to NZ for playing their part.

And then you get articles like this. Between this idiot whose name I cannot be bothered to scroll up and look at again and Jones they are (a) attempting to bring Rugby down to soccers level and create hatred and (b) turning the Times Sport section into a comedy.

The respective Rugby Unions between all these countries do compete at the boardroom level but why associate the 15 players on the field with their administrators? They have nothing to do with that and more importantly they have nothing to do with the scribes in their respective countries - they are the ones fueling this percieved battle, writing this tit for tat complete garbage about sports teams.

Writer Guy - the only loser in the France v All Blacks game I saw is you.

[Rod H]

Articles like this do a sad injustice to the game of rugby that so many of us love.
I was in Cardiff, along with what seemed like 30,000 other All Blacks fans, and a slightly smaller (but magnificently vocal) number of French fans.
The atmosphere in Cardiff before the game was tremendous. The atmosphere in the Millenium Stadium was incredible.
Mr. Souster seems to feel that the All Blacks, their management and their fans are narrow minded, arrogant and ignorant. If that is the case, why were the fans around me, Frenck, Kiwi and neutral alike hushed when Serge Betsen was knocked out? Why did they rise to their feet as one when Betsen went off, groggy, but under his own steam?
I accept that just as England deserved to win their quarter final because they imposed their game on Australia, New Zealand did not deserve to win in Cardiff because they failed to impose their game on France. There are serious questions to be asked of the structure of the game in the Southern Hemisphere in the light of Saturday's results - other papers have written of the comparison between the Heineken Cup and the Super 14 competition - you could also look at the lack of leadership and (maddening) lack of a plan B when New Zealand were camped on France's line in the last minutes of the game.
Wouldn't those have been more relevant and positive articles to write?
This kind of unsubstantiated vitriol most especially belies the cameraderie and bonhomie of the fans in Cardiff on Saturday, where we were priveliged (again) to witness a New Zealand / France game that was absorbing, passionate, brutal at times, and ultimately resulted in the exit of the All Blacks. Sad and disappointing - both the result of the game (from an All Black fan's perspective) and particularly your article, Mr Souster. I thought The Times was above this sort of petty, sensationalistic, tabloid journalism.

[Ian McIntosh]

First, the allblacks will not return to scorn and derision because we remember how well they've played these past three years.
Yes the journalistic campaign against Ireland was shameful, as is this ode to whatever corporation sponsors your club competitions this year.
I'd take your enjoyment of our fantasized haemmorage of talent seriously if I hadn't remembered your are a humanitarian who'll spend "a happy hour or two" discussing the plight of the ghurkas over guiness with lawyer friends in Calais.
I grew up in Mangere, South Auckland with a number of pacific islanders the allblacks "stole".
International rugby meand cultural exchange to us and not just
a sponsored 80 minutes on the telly.
I walked past a pub called the barry john a hundred times and can not tell you how many times I was lectured that Mike Gibson was the greatest centre that the world has ever seen.
We have been honoured in New Zealand by our relationships with the home nations in the past, your article misrepresents the the history of international rugby allblacks will not be spited because , the life of pacific island people in New Zealand and dishonours any Irishman I have ever met (certainly doesn't sound like one), and probably, Mark, your own experience, but you are writing as if your career and livelihood depends on it, and shows only what you are made of.

[Pete]

Oh dear, this isnt sport. I have respected the writing of the Times for many years but this spiteful display is more in line with boozy pub talk. I am passionate about rugby and believe it above such personal diatribes. If there is a beating heart to world rugby, it lies in New Zealand. Yes, mistakes have been made there as in any country, and any sport. Yes, some kiwis have been guilty of arrogance and unrealistic expectations. The sad irony is that without those expectations, the All Blacks, would, in all likelihood be in buoyant mood awaiting a semi final with England. In this sense, bizarrely, I tend to agree with a sentiment of the writer, namely, that a more modest self effacing role would do wonders for their appeal off the field, and their results in crunch matches on it. I would remind the writer though, that a world champion is only worthy of such a title if he, she, or they can perform as world champions throughout their tenure. Despite having a marvelously combative team in 2003, England have failed to achieve that. In contrast, New Zealand have been the true world champions over the past 4 years. Perhaps New Zealanders and indeed all those who preach the necessity of a world cup crown to honour greatness, should stand back and realize that it is only the winner of a test series. Few teams ever win 3 or 4 to nil against strong opposition. However, the mark of a teams true greatness, or failure, should not be based on one game. If there is one lesson that kiwis should learn, it is this, enjoy their rugby as the so called minnows clearly do. A simpler less stressful and more rewarding experience. Lets face it, we are talking about sport. I wish never to see such vitriol from you, Mr Souster, or your colleague, Mr Jones. I would like to think you are talented writers and lovers of rugby.

Nick Dixon, for the record I am a New Zealander and I thought the French played a magnificent game of rugby on Saturday. This is the second time they have pulled off this kind of victory against the All Blacks so I don’t believe it’s down to blind luck either. In contrast, the All Blacks played poorly. Even if the refereeing had been better (and I believe it could) then the French still deserved to win. I think if you read the New Zealand press and listen to the after match statements by Graham Henry you will also see a fair bit of humility and acceptance that we were beaten by a team that played better on the day

Having said that, I don’t see the French Gloating – they are gracio