The New Zealand debate: Stephen Jones responds

The Sunday Times Rugby Correspondent's piece criticising the All Blacks after their World Cup exit provoked a heated reply from readers. Here, Stephen responds to some of their comments.

Would Stephen Jones kindly explain how he can possibly describe Wayne Barnes as an outstanding referee when with that crucial French try he missed not just one forward pass but two. The first from Traille to Michalak and then from Michalak to the tryscorer Yannick Jauzion. To miss one forward pass is not particulary good refereeing but understandable but to miss two in the same move and which results in a match winning try is diabolical. So c'mon Mr Jones you claim to be an expert back up your comments and explain this one
- Gareth Williams

SJ: Gareth, I would describe that nice Mr Barnes as an outstanding referee on the basis of the 10 or 12 games I have seen him do; yes, it seems there as a clear forward pass in a New Zealand try and one in a French try. What I also would not do if I was a Kiwi, I think, is blame a host of failures on one decision

For NZ rugby world cup 2007, read England football world cup 2006.
- Andy

SJ: Andy, England people copped it better. No talk of suicides

Wow! So much bitterness in this 'blog' on both sides. The truth is, no team is invincible. NZ didn't deserve to win, as the players and management were gracious enough to admit. We can always blame refs. We blamed the ref in 91 for not awarding a penalty try when Campese blatantly knocked on, but Australia won. We blamed the ref when Maradona used the Hand of God. It didn't change the result. And yes, Barnes missed a couple of marginal forward passes but the second one didn't look forward until we saw the replay. No ref is perfect, and refs have been missing forward passes all through the World Cup. The All Blacks have run in at least half a dozen tries where there has been a dubious pass. Face it boys: you weren't quite good enough when it really mattered. That's no disgrace. It happens. It could have been worse, though, because France were tactically inept until the second half so they may have won more easily. What would concern me as a Kiwi would be the look on Carter's face when he went off. He looked like a little kid whose toys had been taken away. He didn't know how to cope; I thought he was going to have a sobbing fit. Now those are tears of someone not used to losing; he was crying for himself, not for the team. Maybe you need to lose a few games to summon up the guts to win big games. I fear for All Blacks rugby now. I can see them doing a Wales and becoming perennial gallant losers. I expect France to win this WC because they have the greatest strength in depth, have prepared the best, and have been mentally toughened by the more competitive nature of NH rugby. Money rules I'm afraid.
- Ashley Slater

SJ: Ashley, I have never thought it a good thing that the countries with the biggest financial clout rule the world and hope that teams like Argentina and Fiji can buck the trend. I had lunch with the great  Sean Fitzpatrick and he was talking today about New Zealand's huge problem in winning tight RWC games

Wow, I don't know whether to laugh or cry reading the above pieces. Thanks to Laura, London and a few others for your gracious comments to help restore my faith in people. Is Mr Jones "having a laugh" or is he for real? I am really shocked and saddened at the hatred so many of you people have for us kiwis just because we love the All Blacks. What did we as a tiny nation of 4 million people ever do to you lot to bring on such vitriol? Could you Mr Jones and you other AB fan haters perhaps tell my 9 and 6 year old sons why they shouldn't adore the All Blacks and why people who have never met them and live on the other side of the world have such hatred for them? How do I explain your column to them Mr Jones? Here in New Zealand one of the reasons rugby is loved is because it is about mateship, having a beer with your team and the opposition after the game. There is certainly not much mateship in most of these postings! Also, could someone PLEASE explain to me when the All Blacks were behaving arrogantly as I seem to have missed it?? and I don't recall when being proud of and supporting your team was being arrogant?

Unfortunately you all miss the point though - we LOVE the All Blacks because to us they symbolise us as a people. We are a tiny nation at the bottom of the world that most people don't even know exist. Economically we get shafted because we refuse to suck up to the powerful nations, ie., we don't allow nuclear ships into our harbours, we are against this current war and chose not to send troops and I could go on and on. For us the All Blacks represent our spirit our pride in ourselves in that we can and do stand up for ourselves even though we are such a small nation. Anyway well done France and may you go on and win the tournament. Looking forward to welcoming those of you who come in goodwill and fun down to our beautiful country in 2011. Kia Ora
- Nikki

SJ: Well said Nikki  and I would not dream for a second of telling your sons what to do or what not to do. Long may they love their sport, like my sons, and long may Kiwis love their country. What I am sure you won't want your lads to do is in the event if New Zealand losing  a rugby match or two, is them comparing it with the trenches in World War One, acting as if the world has ended or as if rugby has any real importance. Great response. I am afraid that the arrogance of this particular NZ team and its Union is a byword throughout the sport.

Stephen Jones referring to France in his post before the game ~ 'In Cardiff, not even an outpost of the World Cup, and perhaps with few of their followers present, they will play an away match. They will almost certainly lose.'

How quickly you change your tune Mr Jones, here you state that the French have no chance against the All Blacks, and now you state that the All Blacks have no quality players. Which one is it?

The All Blacks didn't become a bad team overnight, 43 wins from 49 tests indicates that they surely have quality somewhere on the park. This of course includes zero losses to Northern Hemisphere sides, combined or otherwise, up until the quarterfinal. Perhaps thats why you feel the need to cast vitriolic remarks now? Perhaps you must jump on this win as if it were your team who beat New Zealand because its been 4 yrs since that happened?
- Greg

SJ: Greg,  Which is my team? I don't have a team. I am a journalist. Maidenhead Colts is the nearest team to where I live my despite my coaching, there's no way  we would  beat the All Blacks - unless they have an off day.

As an Italian im happy a northern hemisphere is in the semi-finals. New Zealand seem to think they were untouchable but exposed as a very good team not great team. They always get away with obstruction, slowing the ball down and what we call forward laterals. What goes around comes around.
- Luca

SJ: No argument here, Luca, on those scores

Hey - I am an All Blacks fan and naturally am disappointed that once again the ABs did not convert their undoubted talents and potential into the result that matters. However, I am concerned as to the level of vitriol and uninformed comment that this has generated - yes, a good old fashioned ribbing is in order but come on Mr Jones - take the patch off your eye please. You do yourself a disservice as a quality observer of the game by firing your cheap shots based on you own prejudices.

By and large, the test on the weekend was a good spectacle of the modern game. Two competitive teams going head to head. The ABs certainly secured sufficient ball and territory to achieve a comfortable win in most instances but a tenacious French defence that never flagged, coupled with devastating counter-attack when it mattered proved to be the difference between the two teams. There was an example late in the game where Nick Evans took a half break in the French 22. In other games, such a break has invariably led to a try. However, a single desperate French hand grasped onto the back of his shorts and held on for dear life, forcing Nick to throw a fifty-fifty pass that was knocked on. To me, that single act summed up the magnificent French defensive effort.

I thought that the referee's game was okay - not stunning, but that is hardly surprising given that this was the most significant appointment in his relatively short career.

I thought that on balance the sin-binning of Luke Macallister was warranted. Up until then Luke had played well, creating considerable havoc in the French mid field. However, his slow and deliberate turn in front of the French player appeared calculated to obstruct rather than a genuine attempt to recover the ball and given its position on the field (10 metres out from the New Zealand line), I can understand how the referee formed his decision. I also note that the act was unnecessary - the French player would not have scored from it as the ball was covered by MacDonald. .

The pass leading up to the second try was forward but these things happen and will not always be picked up no matter how experienced the referee is. I note that the referee was not well positioned to observe that particular pass (he was approx 10 metres behind the actual play and behind the players rather than being to the side) but the modern game moves fast and referees can't always be in the right place at the right time.

I thought that he was weaker in his interpretation of the offside line around some of the rucks, particularly in the pick and go rucks. We have the benefit of slow motion and replays - he does not and he must make his decisions in an instant. Perhaps more experience at the highest level may have supported Mr Barnes in his decision making. Perhaps greater support from the linesmen would have helped. But this is all speculative. All in all, the ABs had the winning of the game irrespective of these issues but were unable to take it.

I say "well done France" - allez les bleus - you played with passion and defended like titans. You took your chances when it mattered. Best of luck for the rest of the tournament.

As an aside, I have a very good mate who is Welsh. He still reminds me of the All Blacks-Welsh game in 1978 when Andy Haden's dive out of the lineout near the end of the game led to Brian McKecknie kicking the winning penalty. I tell him over and over again - get over it and move on.

I say the same to other All Black fans but please Mr Jones exercise better judgement.
- Geoff

SJ: Geoff, I am afraid that sitting on the fence gives you a sore backside and I stand by everything in the area of New Zealand over-rating themselves, but I take note of what you say and am impressed by your assessment. Thanks

Syd H reckons all those matches in the Tri nations and those games against Australia for the Bledisloe Cup are meaningless! Those games are played between the 3 top ranked countries in the world. Throw in successive wins against all the home nations and France and Argentina over the last three years (sometimes with our second team) and that compares more impressively with the efforts of England in the last four years in the six nations which is played for between the seventh ranked team (England) and teams like Italy who have averaged about 8 points to 80 against the AB's, Scotland and Ireland (who can manage to scrape past Namibia who hold the record for most points against in the world cup (145).

Yes of course we wanted to win this world Cup. Virtually every rugby columnist throughout the world rated the All Blacks as favourites. Why? Because over the last three years they have played some superb rugby. Forwards and backs have some wonderful skills. So they lost! Good god, England have lost 14 games out of 20??. If they manage to scrape past USA, Tonga, Samoa and Aussie but lose to france, does that make them more successful than the AB's. If you think it does, I wonder how you must feel supporting the world champions (currently seventh ranked in the world) and game after game having being beaten by a group of weal six nations teams week after week! We will get over this particular loss, will regroup and look forward to building another team (with some new blood) and play in real competitions such as Super 14 and Tri nations; will continue to play six nations teams both here and in the UK and enjoy the results. By the way, I have not mentioned the ref, but is it true that he is not doing any more games?
Sleep well.
- Kevin Brown

SJ: Kevin, it could well be that New Zealand retain their ranking as number one team till the next World Cup but they have to find a way of dragging themselves through in these tight RWC games. That nice Mr Fitzpatrick was seriously bemoaning the fact that the super-14, while more skilful, does not give the players as good an ability to win the tight games as the England and French leagues. I totally agree 

I totally disagree Mr. Jones, saying that the All Blacks are average players is just a lie. The credit for our loss should not be given to 'choking', but rather to the fantastic spirit the French showed. A team, which, on their day are capable of beating anyone. Congratulations to them should be headlined not all black failings.
- All Black Fan

SJ: Dear Mr Fan. It is not a lie. It is an opinion, bearing my name

I wish Stephen Jones's articles were still published by our newspapers. The lessons they teach us are invaluable and give us a good insight into what is "wrong" with All Black rugby.

There are certain parts to his articles that pull at our heart strings but only because they are true.

I don't think the players are arrogant but their lack of respect for the fans (for example, not going out to see them after the loss) and the often condescending attitude by Graham Henry does leave you with the feeling they are arrogant. And I can certainly see how other nations may be left with that impression too.

Throughout the 90's and early part of this decade, if you actually read what Stephen Jones was saying rather than looking at his criticsm emotionally, he generally hit the nail on the head in terms of what was wrong with our rugby. His criticsm of the "flowery" nature of Super 12 rugby (as it was then) and the way it made our forwards "soft" was, I belive, on the mark. We subsequently worked on our scrum (successfully I think) and on gettig forwards more competitive at rucks and mauls (also successfully) I believe). We have either dominated these area or competed with all opposition teams in these areas in the last 5 years (even in the loss). I believe Stephen Jones has acknowleged our improvement in these areas.

Now he is saying that we thought we would win the cup because we have so much talent. The point is it's the 15 on the field and 7 subs that count. Not the rest of the depth. It's a very good point. I think we'll have to learn from it. In future, we not look too far forward. We must pick the best 22 each week and just deal with the world cup as it comes up.

In addition, we must pick players who can change the game plan if necessary. This is a skill yet to be learned.

Finally, the referee may be an outstanding referee but he ahd a poor game. He showed that he was inexperienced but he did not lose it for the All Blacks. Hopefully, he will learn from it too.

I believe Stphen Jones comments need to be scrutinised more closely by the coaching staff. He has such a dislike for all things New Zealand (so be it, it's his choice), it provides real insight into our weaknesses because he is not blinded in any way by any amount of loyalty.

I hope one of our daily papers starts printing his articles again.
- Gregor

SJ: Gregor, sorry, but your papers can't afford me. Only joking. I take your points and you are so right about the game plan. All they had to do was get in range for a DG and yet they seemed stupified

On Saturday no sooner had the final whistle gone at the Millennium stadium Graham Henry was already looking for work knowing full well that for a rugby mad nation this defeat was too much for them to bare and the parade and the chants of "four more years" will have to wait for another time, At the moment his reputation is in shreds as well as the knighthood which he no doubt would have received from the queen if NZ had lifted the trophy, yet is it all really fare!

It wasn't long before thethe knifes were out and the "know it all's" in NZ i.e. David Kirk and Colin Meads were leading the criticism. Yes Henry did tout for the coaches job, he had four years to prepare a young squad that was hungry for success and he was given great leeway back in N.Z and all his demands were met. As a consequence he stepped on a few toes and when you step on people just as in politics you make enemies. Clive Woodward the former England coach experience this. When England were shown the door in the same stage in the 1999 world cup there were calls for him to be sacked. He was saved only because it was considered that he had not been at the helm long enough.

However, although Henry never said " judge me on the world cup" as Woodward did, the fact that Henry never admonished those in NZ who by the summer of 2004 crowned the all blacks as the "real world champions" after a two test demolition of England only added to the shock on Saturday. England were poor holders of the world cup and a string of defeats only enhanced this opinion. Despite this immature view and the sneering towards the northern hemisphere, in particular ignoring that England team's feat in 2003, from this point onwards it was off to the races. Henry's all blacks racked up four Bledesloe cups, three tri-nations wins, a three test defeat of Clive Woodward's British Lions and a home-nation grand slam in 2005 with in effect two different IX's alternating in the four tests. From 2004 to last Friday only four tests were lost and none of them to any of the northern Hemisphere teams!

Yet that is not good enough, now rugby success is judged on a couple of games every four years and getting the team name engraved on a trophy only 20 years old. The international game is so rich with tradition and there are so many great international rivalries I couldn't even write them all! No international match is a friendly and there are great rugby occasions every year. Is being world cup winners all it's cracked up to be?

Be that as it may many are asking now what happened in Cardiff? Henry should have been alarmed after the French lost to Argentina and the likely hood of playing them in Wales. NZ had not played a competitive match against top opposition since August while by this time France had been battle hardened. In addition, the news of about a dozen top N.Z. internationals announcing that they were leaving for lucrative contracts in Europe in the months leading up to the world cup did not sit well with me. It came across as arrogant and lacking commitment to the cause, the players were thinking too far ahead ! To me it's like a sprinter easing up on the track and looking across when he think that he won the race only to be pipped on the line by somebody who leans forward!

What ever effect all of the above had is any bodies guess, but as any team will testify you can't win all the time, maybe the all blacks peaked last year and were over cooked. Many harp on about it being 1999, but to be fair the games don't compare, in 1999 N.Z. imploded and in the end were humiliated. Although a quarter final exit is in it's self an embarrassment the N.Z. performance on Saturday wasn't. Yes they did seem void of ideas and were also tactically inept, but their commitment and spirit were up there, all the statistics with possession and territory is a testament to that. They were only a penalty or a drop goal away from victory against a very committed French team and if they had done it, we would all be singing a different song!
- B.D. Calhoun

SJ: Very, very fine post. I actually think that Graham is outstanding. I think he took too much else on board, listened to too many others, and lost it somewhere

Dear Mr Jones let me first acknowledge that I am a NZ'r who resides in Australia. I am first and foremost an All Black supporter but support Aus against all other teams.

I would like to say firstly that I do always enjoy reading your columns. I feel that much of what you write is utter garbage yet some of it is very insightful.

Now to the All Blacks: you seem to have confused the team with some of its less intelligent supporters. The All Blacks themselves over the last few years have really been quite gracious both in victory and defeat. McCaw and Collins have been widely quoted as saying that no matter how many games they win before the world cup it means nothing at the cup. Unfortunately many thousands of AB supporters are very arrogant and simply do not seem to learn from history. Also they are not gracious either in victory or defeat.

To some other points in your article: Yes in his prime Dallaglio is the best backrower I have ever seen. Does that mean that McCaw, Smith, Kefu, Kronfeld etc are also not magnificent players in their own right? Does anybody else in the whole world really believe that Jerry Collins is a "one trick pony"? That really is an insult to a very committed and skillful footballer. Did you happen to notice his backing up of a midfield break and offload in the tackle to set up the AB's first try?
Now lastly some points on the actual game and why france won: 1.France's defence was brilliant and the main reason for their win.
2. France played absloutely perfect rugby in the last 50 minutes of the game as the ref did not issue one penalty against them in that time. I wonder in the history of Frances rugby has this ever occurred when playing against one of the top 6 teams?
3. The dubious sin binning. 13-3 before 13-13 after
4. Something that all the commentators seemed to have overlooked: with 25 minutes to go our version of Jonny limped off. 10 minutes later his relacement limped off.
5. Around this time France scored there matchwining try illegally from a forward pass.
- Posty

SJ: Well, that is a brave attempt to rewrite history, and not all "garbage." But as they say, if my auntie had testicles she'd be my uncle.

Comments

[Stephen Roberts]

Missing a forward pass. Excusable.
Dubious yellow card. Likewise. A team with the minority of posession going a whole half without conceding a penalty? You have to be joking. I've never been accused of bad sportsmanship before in my life, but I'll never let this go. I still feel sick.

[Darren Drury]

Hi Stephen. Have always enjoyed your articles as they give a different perspective from the NZ view which is shovelled down our throats.
One of the most interesting articles i have read post Cardiff was the article written by David Kirk as he tried to analyse what went wrong.
I did not agree with many of his conclusions but a point he made that made me think was about the emotional buttons that are pushed at wolrd cup tournaments. It is quite clear that NZ has been playing at a level above most other countries since 2004 under the new coaching regime (they also played some very good rugby under John Mitchell). His angle was that with rugby being the national game in NZ and so much riding on it every time NZ plays, the emotional buy in from NZ teams was often higher than the opposition. Combine this with some world class palyers it was a heady mix and hard to beat - this is reflected in the NZ record sinbce 2004. Where we fall down is when we are matched in intensity by the opposition and defences are tightened. We are then in a 50/50 situation and rugby as we know can be won or lost on whims of fate.
That made me think what kind of rugby do our players play that shape their headspace - obviously the answer is Super Rugby and in NZ it is the NPC (or Air NZ Cup). The Super 14 has some very good rugby but it is with out a doubt lacking intensity as we do not have the same tribal intensity of the European competitions. It is an early summer competition that is finished by the end of autumn. Without a doubt we need a competition that goes at least 2 rounds home and away. The other competition is the Air NZ Cup which is a watered down version of the NPC these days. Both competitions lack any intensity and this is without a dount a doubt part of our problem.
Another part of the problem is the very unfortunate political-correctness that has taken over our younger generation in NZ. It all comes a bit too easy for a lot of our rugby players and they are cocooned in an unnatural world. The player union is very strong and has been pushing for the last 5 years for the players to play less rugby and the current coaching regime has been hijacked by this and as a cornerstone of their strategy have tried to start RWC 2007 with their players fresh. It is farcical when players such as Richie McCaw have played only a dozen games in the season.
The last point in my diatribe is that plaese please please IRB, find some balance in the global season. I love rugby and i do not want to watch weakened rugby teams from the northern hemisphere OR the southern hemisphere touring all in the name of building for the world cup. I also do not want excuses from teams about being tired at the end of the season etc.

[Michael Holloway]

Mr Jones

I wonder why the AB fans and the Wallaby fans are upset with hearing some comments that are not 100% congratualatory. England have for as long as I can remember, I'm 46, been derided, accused of arrogance, of being the wors world champions ever, lacking talent, plans, fortitude and vision. Even the Anglo based commentators and journo's, you included have said some pretty mean spirited things about the English, but we have to accept it, we are supposed to accept that prancing around in the back field conveys greater talent than winning and retaining ball in tight contact situations, it does not, talent come in many dresses, where the Antipeodean regards chucking the ball around like hot potato, they have little talent in retaining the ball in tight situations, even the lauded McCaw and Smith, who frankly must be considered over-rated. England and France both have strong packs who can deliver consistant ball, though sometimes slow, have shown over the past 8 years that fancy danning around in the backs and changing rules to suit Pacific mind sets will not help win a RWC. A little more Iron in the diet.

[Tony]

IRB Standings 8 October
NZ 1
England 6
I just hope this team doesn't choke like the last one and think that just because it's won one tournament it only has to turn up for the next four years to be respected. Congratulations to Brian Ashton or whoever that has got that message across in the last two weeks. The ABs hopefully will learn it by 2011.

[olympian]

Here's a suggestion - we know the All Blacks are not seriously competitive in World Cup Rugby. Perhaps we should create a two-tier system, so that they and the other minnows can play for the right to reach the last 16? Better still, why not simply have them at the World cup as the floor show dancers before each game? That way, they make the final every year - and they never lose. Wouldn't that make everyone much happier?

[Maximus]

When I see the whining insecurity, the inability to face facts, and the belief that somehow victory only belongs to their team as a right, I understand why both the All Blacks and their fans are unable to deal with genuine pressure. Like team, like fans. If they stopped awarding themselves the World Cup early, learned that rugby is about dealing with pressure, not strolling to victory over 3rd rate teams, and understood that blaming the referee is cowardly and dishonorable - well, then perhaps the All Blacks and their fans might get to the final. Until that day, we shall judge the All Blacks as poseurs, and their fans as an unsporting, bigoted rabble. No other nation puts up websites calling for the murder of a referee after they lose, and as for attacking a quietly parked car.. well, what does that say about the quality of All Black players as people?

[Tim Hinchliff]

Ohhh Mr Jones you wind me up! But I think that is more to do with you being mostly right then anything. I think arrogant is a bit strong, I would have preferred to call myself smug at the Cardiff game! I think in the end there is a difference between the way rugby is played in the North as opposed to the South. Different is different and sometimes it is best to leave it at that. Its good for the game that there is such a difference in styles.
Decision making aside I thought the ref showed a lack of pace and fitness. Shouldn't the referee be near to the fastest and fittest man on the pitch? Sometimes he simply wasn't in a good position to make an accurate decision and that hurt both sides. He had a good first half but as he seemed to tire his decisions became more erratic. Should there be a minimum level of fitness and speed for referees, because you cannot make a good decision if you are not in a good position.
The Frenchmen despite their reputation, carefully garnered in the last 2 great wars, didn't run away, they stood up to us and knocked us down, again and again and again. Its great when people stand up to the Haka it is a challenge and opposing teams should try to face it down. Good on them and hopefully we see them or Argentina go on and win it it would be great for the game, France being the best team in the world to have not yet have won one. That said, when why wife informed me that we were having quiche for dinner last night I had to tell her that we were, in fact, having "egg, cheese and spinach pie with out a top". Its "freedom fries" for me until the pain has gone!
Lack of drop goal? I think Nick Evans or Dan Carter would have had more attempts at a drop goal. McCallister is the third kicker and without our generals, there was clearly some panicking. If Johny and, I don't know, Cat were off would Englands third kicker have made a DG? I don't know but probably. However as far as drop kicking goes we don't have that depth. McCallister is not that sort of player, he is a line breaker. But I think it unfair to say we don't respect the drop kick. I know as a young kid I won the World Cup thousands of times in the backyard, nailing a drop kick from 45 out on the sideline, in the dying seconds. Once I even did it against a mixed team of Storm Troopers, Predators and the terrorists from Die Hard. Its hard to make a DG dodging serious blaster fire believe you me. I'm sure that is an experience shared by coutless other kiwis. I do think a drop kick should not have the same value as a penalty however. It devaules the penalty which is effectively punshment for cheating. I think it should be more like league, one point to break a draw.
I would also like to comment on the point about a lack of relegation in the Super 14. On one level I think it is nonsense. Top players do not get relegated. I am going on a wing here but I suspect that none of the English or French national players play in the second division and were their team to be relegated they would simply move to another club. For top players there is no such thing as relegation, so how does this strengthen their attitude? On the other hand I think, what a great oppurtunity for Fiji/Samoa/Tonga/Argentina who have shown again and again that they deserve higher exposure. Maybe we should reduce it to a "super 10" again and make a "not so super 10" below it. We could top up the "not so super" competition with sides from Tonga, Fiji, and Samoa and maybe the top 2 sides from Argentina our constantly improving Gwondanian cousins. A big problem would be the travelling but with 9 rounds instead of 13 you could spread the games a bit and still have the competition taking the same time as the current format. Although I think its a bit extreme to say we steal players (most island players in the ABs are born and bred in New Zealand) we do share a Pacific culture with them and we should give something back i.e the NZRU should help fund these sides. It would be great for the game.
And here's hoping we see an All Blacks tour of Argentina soon, they deserve the chance to have a crack at us on their home turf.
Finally guys lets not loose sight of the fact that we all love this game. I like a good bollicking England pack smashing people out of the way, I like a French break out from their own 22 to break my heart, I like seeing a Fijian winger doing a step that seems to magically teleport him 2 meteres to the left or right, I love a Lomu sidestep, a Wilkinson DG, a Hernandez punt, I love the All Blacks win or loose, but most of all I just love watching rugby.

[Crusaders.Fan]

Funny to see all the things the All Blacks are responsible for and why loosing to France was their come uppance...

"spear" tackle on BOD
poor referrering during Lions series
forward pass in Welsh test
Andy Hayden leaving a lineout
England loosing the Ashes
Global Warming
Dafour Crisis
Al Gore

PS ENGLAND beat Australia. FRANCE beat NZ

[wayne $$ Barnes]

I think you have been spot on.
The All Blacks are useless and have been the luckiest team in world rugby for the past 20 years in winning 85% of their test matches. I agree that all refs are impartial and fair but the all blacks have been very fortunate to find the bad ones to allow the victories. I agree that the world doesn't hate the poms because they are bad losers and even worse winners, and equally I believe in global warming, world peace and the easter bunny

[Johnny99]

How can one label the All Blacks & their loyal fans unrealistic about their expectations of winning? If a team is the best in the world for 3 1/2 years (and generally at or near the top of international rugby for their entire history)leading up to the tournament is that not a reasonably sound basis to expect success. I think the obvious answer is yes it is.

[Doug]

Hi Steve
I am disappointed that France won! I was looking forward to England doing to the All Blacks what they did to Austalia !

[graham simon warriner]

the all blacks lost through lack of determination and cleverness of play,perhaps they did believe their own hype,and fell short because of this,france altered their play when they knew they had to,new zealand did not,however between world cups,the all blacks were masterful,unfortunately for them the history books judge greatness on how well teams perform at the world cup,not between tournaments.

[RS]

I'm very disapointed with NZ press and former AB's who give their opinion. Rugby is getting similar to football, with fans creating website like "We hate Wayne Barnes" (remember "We hate Ronaldo" weblog?). I don't remember reading about the ref's decisions during the B&I Lions Tour, two years ago. And during the 3 test-matches we saw massive errors.

AB's players are just great, and I mean it. They are very good players - yet not Gods... - and their attitude shows that they do not hide on Barnes. But NZ's press is just horrendous.

[george]

Stephen, if you are just a journalist, and therefore don't have a team, why do you then constantly refer to England and just England (none of the other Home Nations teams) as "we" on the World Cup Podcast?

[Graham]

As an Aussie I was dissapointed at the Wallabies defeat and amazed at the All Blacks defeat. However in hindsight both Australia and New Zealand believed in their own spin and took their opposition for granted. I also think the English and French teams underated their chances, they bought into the ANZAC bravado, while both having some crushing defeats earlier on in the comp obvioulsy helped focus their minds.
I think if the final was to be the Wallabies or All Blacks versus South Africa it would have been a great negative for Rugby as a sport. At the moment the best outcome could be France versus Argentina. I really think France are long overdue to win a world cup.
It's also a great shame Fiji could not get further in the comp as they were fantastic.

[neil]

I see in Dennis that SJ has 1 fan.

[dave robinson]

Dennis,

A well constructed post. You obviously put much thought into it. An others say the AB's are arrogant

[4moreyears]

Mr Jones
Congratualtions on saying what you think. It certainly gets attention.
Agree with you that we Kiwis are overconfident to the point of arrogance and then very poor losers.
It is a shame that the AB's often get tarnished with this brush they often do not deserve it.
What it makes it worse is that all the ex- AB's that are in the media tend to exibit the worst of all these characteristics.
I'm glad we didn't have to listen to Murray Mexted's analysis as he is probably the worst of them!
An issue in NZ is that almost all the TV pundits asociated with rugby are ex-AB's and they tend towards the sycophantic. There is very little balanced coverage available.

[Ebo UK]

Apologies to W H Auden

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message the All Black dream Is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

Cup Glory was our North, our South, our East and West,
Our working week and our Sunday rest,
Our noon, our midnight, our talk, our song;
We thought that love would last for ever: We were wrong.

The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

[Peter Wheatley]

I am an Irishman who has lived in (and loved) New Zealand. The people of Christchurch, where I lived, are friendly, welcoming and generous of spirit. It was a delight to live there! New Zealand is a wonderful country which should never define itself by the performance of the All Blacks. But for some unfathomable reason - it does!
As a youngster I first saw the All Blacks play Munster in Thomond Park in 1963. To see these giants of the game perform the Haka was such a thrill. It wasn't a threatening act! It was FUN! We all enjoyed it. To see the Haka performed nowadays is no delight. There is a grim intensity that promises violence (to my eyes anyway). There is no joy in the game. Nobody seems to be having a good time. The last major international player who seemed to be enjoying himself was Campese.
And finally - there is no respect. We see O'Driscoll snarl "it's just beginning" when he scored a try against Argentina. Boy - was he wrong! We see Felipe Contepome apparently taunting members of the Irish team, which he said was a reaction to some "verbals" from some of the Munster members of the team. None of this is necessary and just adds to the misery of the game. We read that the All Blacks are enraged by disrespect shown to the Haka and how this inspires them to punish the opposition. I would have thought the privilege of playing for your country would be inspiration enough!
Through all of this there is only one loser - the wonderful game of rugby. At 14 I stood in the rain at Lansdowne Road and watched a thrilling nil-all draw between Ireland and England. Nowadays I think twice before even watching a match on TV. I have ceased to enjoy the misery that rugby has become.
To confirm my status as an old fart - I yearn for the days when rugby was an amateur game, played by thinking men and not mindless automatons.

[Ebo UK]

Apologies to W H Auden

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message the All Black dream Is Dead,
Put crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

Cup Glory was our North, our South, our East and West,
Our working week and our Sunday rest,
Our noon, our midnight, our talk, our song;
We thought that love would last for ever: We were wrong.

The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

[Robbie Jenkins]

Mr Jones: I have just returned from a long trip to Australaia and New Zealand, where I was involved in youth rugby. I have been involved in the game all my life, and played until I was 41, and I have just seen several games trialing the new "experimental" rules. Please, please raise the awareness of the northern hemisphere to the outrage that the new rules amounts to. It will destroy our game. Simply, they change rugby into a different game... there is no place for real scrums, no place at all for mauls, no forward power play due to a moved offside line at the breakdown, no set piece skill at line out, ruck and maul, and no place for forwards... everyone is exhausted after 20 minutes because the game cant be slowed down, it's like 7s played by 15, or league with support runners, and it's a mess. The ball changes hands so many times in the breakdown, due to hands in the ruck, that it's laughable...
If it comes into force, there will be no more Sheridan and Vickery, or Leonard or Oz Derant, no powerful hookers and even locks as we know them will fade away. Big, heavy kids, now dreaming of being the scrum king of future world cups, will be robbed, and we will all lose a beautiful and unique game. Please champion this cause with your every ounce of energy because if we lose our game, we will never get it back. With the current, ever softer world, every thing we lose, like rucking, is forever lost, so please summon the resistance now, before it's too late. If the IRB force it, let us break away from them... it's our game, not theirs, and it's hugh time we stopped being bullied by the southern hemisphere sides, and the IRB. There is nothing wrong with rugby union exactly as it is.

[David G]

Dear Stephen,

I don't know that the British and French club leagues helped England and France stand up when it mattered. I rather suspect both teams had tasted the ridicule that followed their earlier defeats in RWC 07 and were therefore much more motivated for the knock-out games.

And NZ and Australia were smug going into the games. [The fact NZ used their "B" haka (Ka Mate) showed they didn't respect the French enough to use Kapa O Pango.]

NZ does bottle in the high pressure one-off games at RWC. We probably need to revise the Tri-Nations - expand it to a mini-tournament with a final. As with the Bledlisloe Cup.

The NZRFU also needs to allow European-based players to be able to turn out for the All Blacks - this kind of inside knowledge helped Argentina immensely in the opening game against France.

And we also need to eat some humble pie...

Well done to England and France.

[Ian Riddle]

Hi Mr Jones,

If I was welsh I wouldn't admit to supporting anyone either (now that is a sorry state of affairs).

I am a kiwi and I think you will find 90+% of people have gotten over this lost pretty well. Maybe we are getting used to it. I think you will find being arrogant isn't really the kiwi way (which might be our problem).
The boys got a heros welcome at Christchurch airport yesterday, which was nice to see. (Probaby not the reception England got when returning after the football world cup). So that is evidence that Kiwis are mature about this lose.

I thought the french played well. They had been playing for their lives for a few games and played a team who had been untested for 3.5 years. I like french rugby and always well, just like I used to like the style and passion the Welsh used to play with (in the 70s).

I loved watching the England forward pack destroy Australia, they probably would have destoyed anyone on that day. If you could put the England forward pack (including Jonny W) with the Australia backline, you would have an unbeatable combination.

Hopefully we can win it finally in 2011 in our own country - in yes "4 more years"

[Harry]

I'd also like to say that regarding the game, McCallister had to be 'binned because he cynically denied France a try scoring opportunity. The fact is, the ref's decision is final.