Too much talent? All Blacks have nothing but arrogance

Trawling through the websites had rarely been as hilariously rewarding as it has this weekend in the wake of the All Blacks' demise. At breakfast in the Residhotel, Marseilles on Monday morning (and I mention the name of the hotel as a public service so you can all steer around six miles clear of it even if they have the last spare rooms in the Northern Hemisphere) my media mates all recommended an article by David Kirk, the former All Black captain.

Kirk ridiculed me on air in 2003 for suggesting that England would win the World Cup because their preparations were superior. Naturally, I was far too polite to remind him of this when England won the World Cup because, guess what, they were the best-prepared team.

Back to our David. This was him on the All Blacks’ World Cup campaign, “It is possible to have too much talent.” This was part of such a honeyed, almost uncritical look at the shambolic New Zealand performance against France and the supreme greatness of the team (yes, the one that arrives back in Auckland this week dumped at the quarter-final stage) that we all scurried to the statistics just to make sure that New Zealand had not beaten France by 120-0. Kirk called the Kiwi squad “gods.”

And here, with  totally, even beautiful accuracy, lies the root of the essential and almost total failure of the All Black campaign, and their failure to win a World Cup for 24 years. The easy, arrogant assumption that New Zealand had talent to spare, the assumption that players have to be better simply because they are New Zealand players, and the desperate overrating of the ordinary and the military medium.

Two years ago, New Zealand worked itself into a real lather when I suggested that New Zealand’s easy series win over the 2005 Lions had far more to do with the feeble weakness of the Lions than anything special in their own team. I felt that New Zealand might still win the 2007 World Cup but only because the contenders were not improving. But now, making late runs, at least four teams have overtaken them. They were no longer favourites long before Saturday night – France, Australia, South Africa, Argentina and by Saturday, England were all playing better.

Too much talent? Once Richie McCaw was taken out of the equation by a wonderful and long-overdue application of the laws by Wayne Barnes, the outstanding young English referee, New Zealand did not have a forward of true world class anywhere, save in their two props.

Jerry Collins, the one-trick pony, was in the corral. Rodney So’oialo, the No 8, was ordinary. For god’s sake, they are men of great heart, but they are just bangers. Both men have been ordinary for years. Compare So’oialo’s all round game with, say, Lawrence Dallaglio at his best and you have an anthill and a mountain.

And so on throughout the team. The odd great player, far more journeymen. Too much talent in the  backs? The New Zealand midfield shovelled rubbish along the line way behind the advantage line. No-one had the tactical nous or the skills, apparently, to try a drop goal at the end. Take Luke McAllister out of the team (and that is just what Sale Sharks have done) and there was a lack of class whenever the ball went beyond the scrum-half.

Too much talent? It’s the garbage we were pedalled when All Black coaches, media and followers told us in Kirk-like fashion that actually, they had three teams which could all have won the World Cup.

Fine. So why didn’t you send any of them over to France, then?

Comments

[GNZ]

Perfect defence, percentage Rugby and a good kicker always wins if done right. Someone will get in the zone maybe just for the finals in each world cup (and it will tend to be England, South Africa or France maybe Australia). That team will beat the ABs despite all the individual stars the ABs might have - another decade or two without the silverware.

[wayne $$ Barnes]

When Stephen Jones published this blog another 4.2 million people agreed with John O'Neill

[RJA, Nottingham.]

Only by winning on the highest stage can any team truly call themselves world champions. International Rugby tour matches have now been demeaned to the point of being almost meaningless. It's the cut and thrust of cup knock-out and league table Rugby that the public want now. A la QF's RWC 2007. There is little thrill in a 5 test series anymore.

The NZ management became *obsessed* with winning this tournament. Obsessed to the point of ridicule. It's always interesting (and sometimes fun) to see a red hot favourite crash & burn. And that transcends all sports and all nationalites. And boy did the NZ RFU management and press set themselves up for a crash. And now, *they* look rather silly.

All the honest kiwi can do is take the pain. Take the pain !

[Fred]

The most hilarious thing about this sorry episode was straight after the game was finished, TV3 here in NZ played the monty python clip 'always look on the bright side of life'...surely a message that should have been taken to heart you kiwis ...you should be big enough to take some ribbing without this kind of bile. For a country whose media (with tacit approval from the public) continually refers to the English as whinging poms, the term 'whining kiwis' is becoming more apt by the day.

[Mike]

Mr Jones your column precipitates personal anguish – GET OVER IT! I have always held British journalism with the highest regard but here you clearly have so many chips on your shoulders that we simply get sprayed with potato rather than hearing anything useful. You words are tinged with what I can only describe as 'schoolboy jealousy' not befitting of a broadsheet journalist. This is personal guff, you either need to grow up or retire (preferably retire).

[Rugby Purist, NZ]

Once again Jonesy your continual tongue-in-cheek columns have done what was intended... sell copious numbers of papers. As usual we all take the bait rushing to read your latest offerings. Judging by the smorgasboard of comments here, you get more bites than most commercial fishing ventures!

I, probably like most posters here, don't take seriously much of what you say. Although from time to time when you have taken that leek out of your behind in order to sit comfortably at the keyboard you do raise some valid points.

Being an All Black supporter i am naturally disappointed at our early exit however have been able to put that aside and reflect on four gripping quarter finals. I do not have a preference as to who takes the ultimate prize but can only hope the matches to come rival what we saw last weekend in terms of closeness and intensity. However if a gun is held to my head to select a winner then i shall be quietly rooting for the Boks. We share a common bond in how we both approach the game and our mutual respect for eachothers rugby history somehow sways me to cheer for their cup success.
The mercurial French did not let us down again with their proverbial rabbit in a hat performance against the ABs. I applaud your guts and mental strength to rise above seemingly insurmountable statistics.However i question your ability to put consecutive games like that together..as history shows you rarely do. But good luck to you.
The English....John O'Neil did actually say what most seem to think. Unfair i believe. Im picking his dig is at the loathing of the public school boy mentality. Having played rugby against Aussie schools many years ago i find this rather humorous as rugby in Australia is real public school. In that regard i would say they are more english than the english!

I have viewed the posts with interest and its great to see the majority have a very objective view. The constant chipping away at who is arrogant and who is not etc does irk me somewhat and does get in the way of some insightfulness.

I have travelled to a number of world cups and international games,toured Wales and England as a player, and have a healthy interest in the game in all parts of the world. I have generally always found fans everywhere very appreciative of the what the All Blacks have given the game in terms of the way they play the game. At times yes some New Zealanders can fail to acknowledge that they dont always have the best player in the world in every postion on the field, coach, manager, baggage man and bus driver. yes we may take the game very seriously, as do south africans, as do the Welsh.

Are our players arrogant as many suggest? I have known a number of all blacks personally and have to say yes a few are. But i have also known players from other nations who suffer from that trait as well. I remember the excitement of seeing the Lions here in 2005 but witnessing some appalling displays of rudeness and arrogance by a certain irish player and a certain english loose forward.
If one has ever spent time in the company of a number of Afrikaan springboks (who shall remain unnamed) then you will witness astounding arrogance. Every team and every teams supporters has arrogant people. But do we have to keep harping on!

I am eagerly awaiting the remaining games of this world cup they should be a cracker.

To my fellow All Blacks fans, we will rise again.Kia Kaha!
I felt worse in 99 sitting there at twickenham but immediately sort out the french fans after the match and celebrated mightily with them. I can honestly say that was the greatest way to move on and maintain some perspective. They were hugely respectful of that. Just as i also donned my All Black jersey in Sydney to go and offer my congradulations to the Poms for their epic win. Its funny how humility costs nothing yet is treated like a scarce resource.

Finally Jonesy lets have some proper rugby insight because it really is starting to become "News of the World" stuff.

And we all know you are still in the closet. Its ok you can admit to being a secret All Blacks fan. You can "come out"! Otherwise you can just continue to watch those awesome dvds of greatest All Black tries and alike, with the the curtains closed and a pillow on your lap!

[Pamela]

Chirs M from the South Island - That was a beautiful post!!!

[Craig]

I'd really like Mr Barnes to explain how he applies the advantage rule. McAlister only took that dropkick attempt because he saw Barnes signalling a penalty advantage to the All Blacks. At which point did we gain enough advantage to not need a penalty? When it missed? How does that work?

[George]

I have often disagreed with you over the years, Mr Jones, but always maintained a certain respect for your rugby experience and ability to put a telling sentence together. But this nasty article comes as something of a surprise, even to someone like myself who could not be considered a fan of yours. Such a petty and graceless spray of spittle, and it’s not improved by the tone of revenge for some old dig at England by David Kirk that you obviously have taken so personally. The sheer absurdity of your position is very telling and makes it difficult to take anything you write in future seriously. Suddenly this All Black side which has regularly made mincemeat of defences, in particular those of the Six Nations including reducing France to consecutive humiliating home defeats earlier this year, has become a bunch of journeyman and somehow always has been! What does that make all their various oppositions during those 43 wins in 49 tests? To have followed international rugby closely since the last World Cup and now write as you have is delusional. The All Blacks deserved to be favourites and to be confident because they had earned these things by playing entertaining, winning rugby time after time over several seasons against a long list of sides all fired up to knock over the #1 ranked team. Their supporters have a right to be proud of them. In the meantime, whichever way this current World Cup may turn out, nothing can change the fact that England have been an embarrassment to the title of World Champions. What a dreary business international rugby would be if the England side that has so often taken the field in the last four years were the admirable yardstick that you always so bafflingly see them to be. If you truly loved rugby you would relish the positive and inventive style of All Black rugby and give credit where it's due. And when they lose, as all teams sometimes must no matter how good they are, you should find a more mature way to analyse the defeat and celebrate the victors than this ill-natured and ultimately dishonest piece of work.

[Paddy]

Here's what Gavin Hastings had to say about the All Blacks on BBC's RWC podcast: "I'm a great believer that these guys, the New Zealanders, are the most un-arrogant group of guys who you would ever hope to meet in your life, and I genuinely believe that, and their management team as well." I think I'll take Gavin's word for that - he knows a bit about rugby and rugby players and he doesn't seem to have any personality disorders. And if Mr Jones had taken the trouble to listen to and watch the All Blacks in the days leading up to this game he would have seen that they were far from arrogant. If anything they came across as being a bit scared - and that showed out on the field. In the last few days I have heard just about everybody accuse everybody else of arrogance: the English, New Zealanders, South Africans, Australians and French - they all think the other lot are arrogant. It is the insult de jour. It is also nationalistic piffle and a sad indictment on the intelligence of fans and journalists. Let's just get on and enjoy the footy shall we?

[Paul]

"a wonderful and long-overdue application of the laws by Wayne Barnes"

What an embarrassing attempt at journalism, your pompous pen paint little analysis with lashings of over excited smugness.

Shall we play this game, 1966 Football - anyone???
Perhaps a Lions Tour - 4 nations against one even that prove to be enough to choose from. Keep the smugness coming, it's oh so becoming.

[J Griff]

The main reason everyone bar kiwis was so jubilant to see NZ go out was because they were such overwhelming favourites to win the world cup. Up till a few days ago you could only really see SA putting in a decent challenge. Everyone loves to see the favourites go out and the underdogs win, Fiji beating Wales as a good example. And that is what has made this world cup so good so far that the lesser nations have stepped it up and some of the big nations have gone home with bloody noses.

I thought that most rugby fans were above the sort of vindictive stuff posted on this page. I for one feel sad for the kiwis, but it has made it one of the best world cups ever. Hope that the Argies make the final!

[Leon O.]

Yes, the AB's did choke. We should have played well enough to have taken the impact of any dubious ref calls out of the equation. Anyway they will be great to watch for the next 4 years i am sure of that.

Well done to both all finalists. 4 great wins were needed to get there. Shame on those who are taking it to far by threatening the ref etc. Even though some of our fans are idiots, we arent as bad as most soccer fans. I have witnessed soccer fans, and i dont really think we are worse than that!

Its also nice to know we are in good company when it comes to choking. England seems to be very good at it.

156 years since it last had the americas cup.
Was 1966 the last football world cup?
they choked in 3 cricket world cup finals.

I would like to see these times journos come down to NZ and spend some time during the RWC 2011 roaming the streets of south auckland and seeing how much of a melting pot of cultures exists. But i think that maybe to hard, its easier to just make up the facts whilst peering through the curtains of your hotel window i guess.

Reading these articles on this website is a bit like watching Fox news. You know its a biased and sensationalist and wrong, but its entertaining. Well done to the Bill o'Reilly of the rugby writing world!

[David T]

Bleet bleet bleet.

You rugby folk make me laugh, especially the kiwis. You cannot even draw a comparison between England not winning a football world cup since 66 and the All blacks abject failure. The real world cup is considerably harder to win, for a start around 200 contries compete for it and there are intensive qualifiers to negotiate before even reaching the finals, which include 32 nations, almost all of which have football as their national sport.

New Zealand should be winning the rugby world cup every time, as aside from a smattering of small pacific nations, and arguably Wales, no other country gives a brass razoo about rugby as a serious contender for the status of a national obsession. C'mon kiwis you choked again, perhaps you should look for a new medical team, one that includes a certain Dr Heimlich.

[mark - christchurch nz]

The All Blacks have got away with forward passes for years and have always told the opposition to "Get Over It"
Time to take their own advice.

[Patrick Houlahan]

The fact is most Kiwis have little or nothing to do with the NZRU. Their picture of the game is the homespun, washing the club jerseys type of thing. And at this level, Kiwis are a long way from arrogant. But the union is a different story. Talk to any journalists in NZ, and they are petrified of criticising the team or the union, for fear of being black listed. And this climate of fear is not good for the national team.
I knew we were in trouble last week when Luke 'brainless' McAlister banged on about the team 'expressing itself'. What a load of pompous garbage. And that is the All Blacks - pompous, and full of themselves. Mr Jones makes his points hard, but they have the grain of truth to them. Our rugby, at the national level, is up itself.
A bit of humility goes a long way. Unfortunately, when it comes to the 'adi-blacks', it is in short supply.

[Rohan]

Heard this on Radio 2 (UK) this morning ...

Question:
Why are teabags better than the All Blacks?
Answer:
They stay in the cup longer !

Boom Boom !!

Since Saturday, I've hardly had the smile off my face. Couldn't happen to a nicer pair of countries.
The tendency to lapse in to uncontrollable laughter is still upon me.
Tee hee, ha, ha , ha, ha

[SteveL]

An interesting twist is that David Kirk is CEO of a major media company in Australia in which Rupert Murdoch is a significant shareholder. Murdoch presumably remains the dominant shareholder in the Times. While I'm sure Kirk would not interfere with editorial freedom in another paper, he may reasonably question having been taken seriously out of context/ misquoted by Jones. (My understanding is that rather than being considered clever in journalistic circles to take out of context/ misquote is normally considered poor journalism). Kirk may have also sold his soul and understand that Jones is merely trying to sell newspapers in a populist manner. He may though suggest that Murdoch's organisation reviews matters if it wishes the Times to be considered a moderately serious journal where Jones' drivel does not deserve a place. Jones is not clever enough for the Sun; the Welsh have too much pride and sense and will disown him. Even the Mail will not wish to stoop to such rubbish.
For others check out the Independent- the All Blacks take a hit, but it is a balanced view that I suspect my Kiwi friends will graciously accept

[Justin w]

I wish to congratulate Chris M from New Zealand for his well conceived thoughts on the proud New Zealand heritage. However, this is 2007 and with the professional game is upon us there is little we can do to reverse it. So perhaps it is better to embrace change and admit there is something you can learn from the big brothers in the world. Just as Sir Edmund Hillary and Tezing Norgay didn't climb Eversest on their own, may be with a little more humility and open mindedness the Webb Ellis Cup would become less of a tall order.

[pete stack]

just to say gareth we cant beat the abs as they always go home before we get a chance,not to worry i,m sure you will be favourites again in 4 years time,and stuart barnes still loves you,bless him

[Robert Salter]

It is just simplistic & wrong for Mr Jones to regard the ABs as basically talentless. The reality is that 3 of the forwards (Woodcock, Hayman & McCaw) are world class and whilst McCaw does clearly play illegally a lot of the time, he is an open-side wing-forward - he is meant to do this. Is there a wing-forward in World Rugby who doesn't, for example, bend the offside law?

I also think that the arguments of Mr Jones (and loads of others) about the way the ABs (and the Aussies to a lesser extent) steal Fijians et al. is basically "double standards". All the traditional powers would appear to do this. Some recent examples:

1. Wales have an Englishman or two (Horsman) & a New Zealander (Sonny Parker).

2. England has two South Africans (Matt Stevens & Mike Catt).

3 France has a South African (De Villiers).

4. SA has Bobby Skinstad (originally from Zim) & Percy Montgomery (from Namibia).

These are just a few of the examples. The reality is players will often chose to go to those countries where they have the best opportunity. I strongly suspect that many of the Pacific Islanders in the AB team have much stronger links to NZ than some of the names mentioned above to the countries that they play for... This doesn't mean that the ABs are perfect in this regard (they clearly aren't); but people in glass houses should be v. careful before they start throwing stones!

[Suze]

I could not agree with you more Stephen. I have lived in New Zealand for a couple of years and have not come across a more decent pleasnt friendly bunch of people......until the mention of rugby. Suddenly a transformation takes place where everyone becomes snide, arrogant, and often aggressive. Why I have no idea. Try and have a discussion about rugby and you are ignored because your from the NH and you dont know any better. And they wonder why we laugh our socks off every time they 'choke'.

Yet another rant from a sad bitter man.

We lost, I can live that especially I've got to watch the ABs playing brilliant attacking thrilling rugby, and surely will do again. It's only sport, but surely there has to be joy in playing it. To all the people merely interested in seeing others chopped down to size, have a serious think about your attitudes, they're no less pathetic than those who'd make death threats at a referee.

What's Mr Jones got, eh?

Paid to spew bile all over his keyboard and revel in the rugby being reduce to a mediocre slugfest.

Frankly this tedious joyless man deserves little but our pity, whatever country you're from whoever you support. To be reduced to this level is beyond sad.

[Mark]

Has anyone noticed how Mr Jones' articles and its content in the Sunday Times always start with 'I' ? Reepeatedly throughout his article it is 'I' this and 'I' that. Surely we as readers are already aware that we are reading opinion of particular journalists viewpoints. If you read any other article by far more respected journos (for eg Steve Cram - Olympic Champion) you simply do not get the continual and repeated references back to oneself. So why does Jones ? He does it to elevate its gravitas, ie if 'I' think it then you really MUST sit up and take notice, we're not talking normal old drivvel y'know ! And this from a man who loves nothing more than to call others "arrogant". Ha !

As for this particular article, well the ABs have been playing for 5 weeks prior to this match and not ONE word about their form or record. Why ? because they were winning and showing lovely skills. Why did the stupid RWC organisers send the biggest drawcard (and their supporters) from Sthern France to Edinburgh to Cardiff ? Because they knew they were the ONE team that would draw crowds anywhere - noone wanted to show exmpty stadiums.

But suddenly the ABs lose and suddenly we cant shut Jones up.....5 weeks not a word and suddenly 3 articles in 3 successive days all focussing on the ABs 'arrogance'.

And this from a man who openly worships the ground that Woodward walks on.

Lets face it, this man does irony extremely well.

[Kurtis]

The fact that NZ lost the game was an accident. As somebody said before in his history they won 74% of the matches played. But this is something good for the rugby because it gives good oportunities for another teams. For example, Argentina is an extraordinary team, I think they will achieve the final game!

[jeddah99]

The All Greys were just downright bloody ordinary against France - as they were against Scotland's second team.

Perhaps there should be a World Cup for Losers. New Zealand's rugby team would win it every time, every time, every time, every time.

They will never win the real cup - the Rugby World Cup, because they aren't bloody good enough. Get used to it Kiwis - 24 years and counting. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[wiremu harpuka]

Golly.
The Jones article goes even further than I thought possible in making manifest the depth of the damage done to the English psyche over the years.
The English really suffer, and I suppose it means that they have very little else.
It is only a game.
So what?
Wiremu

[Goody]

Judging from what is written in the article in descending order the top 3 things that pleased Mr. Jones most over the weekend are as follows:

1.) The All Blacks failing to become World Champions again.
2.) Australia also having no chance
3.) The All Blacks losing to a northern hemisphere team for the first time since June 2003...

England winning doesn't feature nor does a fantastic performance by France or the set-up of a marketers dream semi-final... do you visit a good shrink Mr. Jones? As even though your native Wales has failed to beat the All Blacks for a number of decades your adopted England didn't do it on the weekend either...nor has it ever at a rugby world cup…how unsatisfying it must be to become world champions without actually having beaten the team that is so consistently number one in the world rankings…

Being denied New Zealand residency all those years ago can leave one bitter and twisted though can't it?

What is it that posses someone to act in such a way after a great performance from a fine French side just to satisfy his own petty vendetta with a nation that has the same population as the largest 15 of London's 33 borough's combined?

As for statements along the lines of NZ's contribution to world rugby being of limited value - surely these are just inserted to provoke a reaction?! As they have no base in rational thought or logic.

Claiming that the All Blacks arrogance is unjustified - I believe a deep breath and a lie down is needed. The All Blacks were the overwhelming favourites for all and sundry before the world cup and a 2 point loss doesn't change any of their achievements since 2003. They are the teams that much like the Aussie cricketers everyone benchmarks their performance against. - What home nation’s team is this true of in ANY sport? - Just look at the reaction of the French after the final whistle on Saturday I bet my bottom dollar that they were ecstatic at beating the All Blacks rather than making the semi-finals which was really just the cherry on top. When the day comes that a team reacts to beating any home nation in such a manner I will report to the head office of the times and eat my hat piece by piece...

I have experienced no petty behaviour from any English or Aussies in London since Saturday only good natured banter and a question 'What did you boys do wrong?' I think the average person here as a lot of respect for the All Blacks and will continue to do so now and until Mr. Jones senility as completely set in.

Whoever has picked on you while you were at school Mr. Jones I hope that you get over it some time soon.

[Syd H]

Kevin, I repeat - the whole point of all test matches in between World Cups is to prepare for the World Cup and win it. That's what all the coaches, players, management and administrators say.

You are lying if you say you'd rather have 43 wins out of 49 matches than the World Cup trophy.

Have I said the All Blacks are a bad team? No. Have I said that Jones and Souster are being bad sports kicking you when you're down? Yes. So what's your bloody problem?

I repeat that New Zealand have not beaten France in the World Cup since the 1987 final and Australia have not beaten England in the World Cup since the 1991 final. New Zealand have never beaten Australia or South Africa in the World Cup. Yes, England have never beaten New Zealand in the World Cup.

There's clearly a problem there. If you get over yourself you might realise that teams who consistently beat you when it matters deserve your respect.

This is why the English should respect the All Blacks. They have very rarely lost to us and they hammered us in the '95 semi - when we were being arrogant. They also beat us in a cracking match in the '99 World Cup when we were both favourites for the tournament. And then we both lost to South Africa and Australia won the whole thing.

This shows that form in between World Cups (and therefore the win-loss record) doesn't count for anything when it matters.

You are being arrogant by saying that your team is better when it just lost to another team!

[Tim]

I lived in NZ over 30 years ago - England beat the ABs at Eden Park for the first time ever. I remember being a quietly proud Pom the following Monday. And my school mates were surprised, but I do not recall any of the Kiwi chippiness of today. The ABs do seem to have lost sight of something - that winning global tournaments is a mark of greatness. They may claim to be the best in the world at other times, but the RWC is the only true test of that claim available to us, so they need to step up to recognise that. Too much marketing hype, and not enough focus - and the inevitable result. Dull and grumpy old England knew what they had to do on Saturday - an object lesson for others.

[Paul Barnes]

Mr Jones does have a point about the All Black backplay, it was pretty ordinary, no running on to the ball or deception. The Aussies are now much better. But why always bang on about the forwards? Williams was the best forward on the field and Collins line and pass for McAllister's try was pretty good for a one trick pony. The forwards set up the game to be won but the backs didn't do it.

[AussieDigger]

I thought the France/NZ game was a great sporting spectacle. It had everything, drama, dodgy referreeing, strength from the NZ players, flair from the French. A bounce of the ball here, a ref. call there and there would easily have been a totally different outcome. Then again that is why people love the game. At this level anything can and often will happen. The over-analysing, and regularly vitriolic coverage by the world's media (particularly in the UK, Oz and NZ)is getting tiresome and boring. Why does it always have to degenerate to allegations of arrogance, complacency, "I told you so" etc? If I was a NZ player walking on to the pitch on Saturday night in Cardiff and crossing the white line all I would have had on my mind is winning, playing the best possible game that I can and to make sure that I don't underestimate the opposition. I would also say the same about the Australian team and the game against England. These guys are representing entire nations and are big enough and ugly enough to realise for themselves that the PR / media mind games and slanging matches amount to nought when it comes to performing on the day.

[matt]

This NZ team must deal with the pain of defeat for a longtime. Long after any of us observers have forgotten the game.

All players deserve more respect for the physical and emotional commitments they have made to be in this tournament. Commitment we observers could not understand.

So relax have a beer and enjoy the rest of the tournament being especially happy if your team is still in with a chance to win it.

[Nigel]

In 1977 on the front page of the most respected paper in NZ, was the following headline -
"Lions are lousy lovers!".

Think about it!

Campese stopped England winning with a professionl foul in 1991 before yellow cards were allowed.

McAlister's try was started by a forward pass from that no. 10 - whatisname? - Cartwright or Cartwrong?

Live with it!!! It all evens out.

As long as NZers don't have enough worldliness and good spirit, then I have no time for them.

Did Umaga deliberately assault BOD when the ball was miles away - yes!

And yet you guys complain about a forward pass!!!

[Chris Lane]

Just to repeat what seems to be overlooked. Stephen Jones is a Welshman and Mark Souster is Irish. So something to remember before the Antipodeans start ranting again about the "English".
NZ lost a memorable match for all sorts of reasons (not the referee) but a still a great side and a benchmark. Stop believing your own propaganda get a proper coach (my respect for NZ rugby does not extend to G Henry) and you might just prove that you are the best. I'm English and I don't hate anybody (although I greatly enjoying England winning)- it's really is just a game boys.

[Pauline Bird]

Rugby as soap opera for boys, anyone?

Sport is all about stepping up to the plate and doing more (and sometimes less) than you ever believed possible in the 'unforgiving minute'. How many more upsets can there be by teams playing out of their skins? And how great is it that this World Cup has turned out to be such a shocker - if it had turned out according to the form book, how boring would that be? Get a grip guys - we're privileged to witness some fantastic athletes giving it their all. Anything else is a bonus.

[John Christie]

Ken - my remarks are in responce to your country man and their remarks about Kiwi's - which is nothing short of a lie in the majority. So my comment to you who are trying to mind OUR business is - BUG off! Do you not understand that it was OUR team that lost but it is YOUR lies in responce to that loss that is obectionable.

[MrBump, London]

This is a pretty unpleasant and petty posting. Whatever the accusations of nationalistic media in NZ, it is damned obvious that people in this "noble" trade here can be equally intolerant and arrogant. The ABs themselves never came across as particularly arrogant, any more than the English players that the press in Aus and NZ accuse of colonialist attitudes and the like. The truth seems to be that there is a spiteful game of one-downmanship being played out between the journos in their respective countries, but that the vast majority of real rugby fans are able to appreciate the drama and skill of the sport and the commitment of every team playing it in spite of such distracting pollution. Your articles are usually worth a read, SJ, but this one is poor.

[Sean]

Hahahaha. I, for one, was really pleased at this past weekend's results - there was nothing more satisfying than see NZ getting dumped out of this tournament, and I really enjoyed watching every moment of that game.

Simply put - Nz is the one team that I truly feared facing: Come on, lets be serious - they are the team that we will ALWAYS measure ourselves against. IF (emphasis on IF) we were to win the world cup, it would be somewhat hollow knowing that we did not doing it against the one team in the world we truly admire!

I hope Kiwi supporters aren't ashamed by the fact that they lost to a team that really played out of their socks in the 2nd half. The all-blacks didn't choke - both teams entertained with really good rugby, France just happened to have the roll of the dice on the day.

Hoping SA to go all the way, but if not - hey - hoping that Chabal and co. can do it!

[Charlie]

What ever happened to the well established and passionately observed rugby etiquette of accepting defeat, respecting referee's decisions and allowing winning teams to celebrate their vicories with humility. Seriously people get over it! This game was a fantastic example of the modern game and I for one as a neutral supporter hope that I will see many more like it. I feel for the New Zealanders as I believe that they deserve another world cup. They have been the stand out team for most of the past four years. Having said that, where would the rugby world be without the random Gallic flare we all love to see as if from no-where. I say "what a world cup!" and what better way to celebrate it than with one of the biggest upsets of all time by the host nation. I love it!

Cheers all. Enjoy the rest of it. I know I will.

[Gareth Williams]

Dear Jack Knight
New Zealand have not lost a pool match though have they and not by 36 nil.
Neither have England ever beatan New Zealand in a World cup match so if you want to start quoting statistics your on a loser.
Gareth Williams

[Chris M]

Interesting observations Stephen. Your comments I look forward to everytime a tumble is taken by one of the Äntipodean Tribe. I am a kiwi citizen who lives in a small country town in the South Island. Last week while passing through the countryside I passed an even smaller settlement that sported two shops, eight houses, a garage and a pub. Just behind the shops a pair of rugby posts were able to be seen against the clear blue sky. Here each week during the footie season, kids, teenagers and the local farmers gather to play their next game of rugby. I don't know if you have such settlements as this in England as the heartland of the great game of rugby. Our children who take up the code, love the game and dream about the next game all week.....and love the challenge of the game, encouraged at all times by the mums and dads on the sideline, and the local mechanic who is the coach. The jerseys have probably been played in for the last six seasons and were provided by the good services of the local mums who fund-raised to buy them. We do not have lots of money to create high paying professional teams, or live in a country of corporate bodies to act as sponsors. The kiwi boy dreams of becoming an All Black whose task it will be to go out into the world with aspirations to do as Hilary did.....to conquer the Rugby Everest. This picture of the foundations of NZ rugby is repeated across the two Islands in both rural and urban settings....alas Stewart Island has no team. Our country of four million is tiny and does not have the long traditions of European countries. We have citizens who have as their life pilgramage the wish to visit the home of their ancestors....all parts of the globe. The Everest factor drives our nation.....it is not arrogance or confidence.....it is the action of a younger sibling who wants to have a tilt at the big brother....and anyone bigger than us is the big brother. We don't always win....but we do alright. We call it the Everest factor because Ed put us on the map as he was the first with Tszing (Sp) to get there. All our kids are encouraged to see anything they want to take on as another version of Everest.
I don't often get angst about things, but when you see the boys in the All Blacks and where most of them have originated from, get slated like you have done, I realise you don't know NZers at all. Last weekend hurt us because we see the hurt of failure in the boys we have raised, and who have played so magnificently during the last four years.....it's like Ed getting to half a km from the top. We admire the french and have done so since their first visits here in the early sixties because we don't know what's going to happen and we love their flair. I ask you to be a bit more thoughtful about your comments when writing in future. There are many words in the English Dictionary that you can use to express your ideas....rather than those you are using. I suggest you start a cleansing of your rugby soul by attending ten year old rugby matches for the rest of the season and learn from the basement up what it means to play rugby...to look at each kid as they overcome all sorts of emotions as they play...then write a report that encapsulates the game. On Sunday morning I sat in my chair chewing my knuckles, cheering then felt the desolation of loss to the team that has been our enigma. Did you see the joy of the french, did you see the desolation of the Blacks, did you see the graciousness of the coach and captains? This was Rugby Opera at its best....joy and tragedy.... and you missed a great opportunity to write about it.
In the words of the graet Australian Captain George Gregan, "Four more years." If the next AB's give us as much to celebrate as the current crop over the next four years we will be a happy wee nation again. Be sure of one thing, the Weetbix promotion, and the hundreds of local footie clubs across the two islands are breeding the next generation of AB's....and they will not diminish in their desire to take on the big brother....their rugby everest. Best wishes to all teams still with games to play. Go hard to achieve your Everest. The world cup is still on and we down here are still avidly watching it.

[Gareth Williams]

Would Stephen Jones kindly explain how he can possibly describe Wayne Barnes as an outstanding referee when with that crucial French try he missed not just one forward pass but two. The first from Traille to Michalak and then from Michalak to the tryscorer Yannick Jauzion.
To miss one forward pass is not particulary good refereeing but understandable but to miss two in the same move and which results in a match winning try is diabolical.
So c'mon Mr Jones you claim to be an expert back up your comments and explain this one
Gareth Williams

[Andy]

For NZ rugby world cup 2007, read England football world cup 2006.

[Ashley Slater]

Wow! So much bitterness in this 'blog' on both sides. The truth is, no team is invincible. NZ didn't deserve to win, as the players and management were gracious enough to admit. We can always blame refs. We blamed the ref in 91 for not awarding a penalty try when Campese blatantly knocked on, but Australia won. We blamed the ref when Maradona used the Hand of God. It didn't change the result. And yes, Barnes missed a couple of marginal forward passes but the second one didn't look forward until we saw the replay. No ref is perfect, and refs have been missing forward passes all through the World Cup. The All Blacks have run in at least half a dozen tries where there has been a dubious pass. Face it boys: you weren't quite good enough when it really mattered. That's no disgrace. It happens. It could have been worse, though, because France were tactically inept until the second half so they may have won more easily. What would concern me as a Kiwi would be the look on Carter's face when he went off. He looked like a little kid whose toys had been taken away. He didn't know how to cope; I thought he was going to have a sobbing fit. Now those are tears of someone not used to losing; he was crying for himself, not for the team. Maybe you need to lose a few games to summon up the guts to win big games. I fear for All Blacks rugby now. I can see them doing a Wales and becoming perennial gallant losers. I expect France to win this WC because they have the greatest strength in depth, have prepared the best, and have been mentally toughened by the more competitive nature of NH rugby. Money rules I'm afraid.

[Nikki]

Wow, I don't know whether to laugh or cry reading the above pieces. Thanks to Laura, London and a few others for your gracious comments to help restore my faith in people. Is Mr Jones "having a laugh" or is he for real? I am really shocked and saddened at the hatred so many of you people have for us kiwis just because we love the All Blacks. What did we as a tiny nation of 4 million people ever do to you lot to bring on such vitriol? Could you Mr Jones and you other AB fan haters perhaps tell my 9 and 6 year old sons why they shouldn't adore the All Blacks and why people who have never met them and live on the other side of the world have such hatred for them? How do I explain your column to them Mr Jones? Here in New Zealand one of the reasons rugby is loved is because it is about mateship, having a beer with your team and the opposition after the game. There is certainly not much mateship in most of these postings! Also, could someone PLEASE explain to me when the All Blacks were behaving arrogantly as I seem to have missed it?? and I don't recall when being proud of and supporting your team was being arrogant?
Unfortunately you all miss the point though - we LOVE the All Blacks because to us they symbolise us as a people. We are a tiny nation at the bottom of the world that most people don't even know exist. Economically we get shafted because we refuse to suck up to the powerful nations, ie., we don't allow nuclear ships into our harbours, we are against this current war and chose not to send troops and I could go on and on. For us the All Blacks represent our spirit our pride in ourselves in that we can and do stand up for ourselves even though we are such a small nation.
Anyway well done France and may you go on and win the tournament. Looking forward to welcoming those of you who come in goodwill and fun down to our beautiful country in 2011. Kia Ora

[mann]

Every football world cup the English think their team is going to win. New Zealand is no different where the rugby world cup is concerned. Difference is that the all blacks win most of their games between cups.

I agree that the all blacks lack intelligence and personality but this shouldn't be construed as arrogance. They are just a bit dim.

[Ron Jeremy]

One poster made a lot of sense - the Pom in Auckland who criticised the ABs as being like a religion and how it has gone too far with the Ads, Haka etc.

I agree - the ABs have become a marketing behemoth and that is part of the problem. Too much time spent in photo ops, adorning posters, releasing clothing lines, perfumes etc. Not enough time spent on drop goals and not bottling when behind.

[Swing Low, Sweet chariot, 4 more years for you!!]

Hi Greg, actually I do live here and no you're not an accepting bunch really. While there is a huge immigrant population there is little community between the locals and this large group. The redneck attitude is only as far away as south of the Bombays. An precious little between even the various group of locals.

I absolutely agree with all the comments re "arrogance".

For those not living in new zealand I'll share a headline in the national daily rag;
".............they'll be grieving in a similar fashion to someone who has had a death in the family"

I kid you not.

You lost, it's a game, show some of those old fashioned kiwi qualities of good sportsmanship, humility and grace.

You're sadly lacking in all.

[Wayne $$ Barnes]

To 'Ken'
Chris Rattue and Gregor Paul are NZ rugby hacks who are arrogant. If you judge every Kiwi on what a NZ hack says the we must judge every Pom on what the likes of Stephen Jones and Mark Souster say, in which case we would be agreeing with Aussies John O'Neill.
The problem with these Hacks beating themselves off like this is they do it on a world stage.
The only NZ arrogance I have heard pre NZ RWC departure has come from the hacks.

[Ken]

"John Christie" we read and comment on what you NZers write beacuse that is what NZers do to the English. Why are you reading and commenting on "The Times"?

[Greg]

Stephen Jones referring to France in his post before the game ~ 'In Cardiff, not even an outpost of the World Cup, and perhaps with few of their followers present, they will play an away match. They will almost certainly lose.'

How quickly you change your tune Mr Jones, here you state that the French have no chance against the All Blacks, and now you state that the All Blacks have no quality players. Which one is it?

The All Blacks didn't become a bad team overnight, 43 wins from 49 tests indicates that they surely have quality somewhere on the park. This of course includes zero losses to Northern Hemisphere sides, combined or otherwise, up until the quarterfinal. Perhaps thats why you feel the need to cast vitriolic remarks now? Perhaps you must jump on this win as if it were your team who beat New Zealand because its been 4 yrs since that happened?

[John Christie]

To all you foreigners who want to tell New Zealanders how and what we should think of our team - Mind your own business! Why read and then comment on what we say among ourselves about our team? What business is it of yours? Bug off. You dont live here and you are not part of our culture which is a culture of acceptance that includes many different races of people yet we are all New Zealanders. This is a peaceful place in comparision to many other places. So DONT go making out like Kiwi's have some kind of issue - we are entitled to be disappointed and to express it. The ALL Blacks are the greatest rugby team ever. Winning ratios prove that and we like to celebrate it. So again - BUG OFF!

[Ken]

"All Out" you freely admit to not having been to NZ. I have (for the final test of the Lions tour 2005). Jones is spot on. Don't believe me? Go to the NZHerald website and read articles by Chris Rattue (his article on France before the game is a thing of beauty), Gregor Paul, Grizz Wyllie (he thought they were playing Keith Robinson in the France game to give him game time for the Semi and Final - I ask you) et al. I, like you, love to watch the AB's play. I do not believe the players as mediocre as Jones states but the NZ view that they are vastly superior to all comers and the RWC is their birthright is totally correct! "Four More Years..."

[Billy Spleen]

Funny about how in Stephen Jones' columns it's all about Stephen Jones.

(Oh, and I'm not a New Zealander).

[All out]

I have never been to NZ but enjoy watching NZ play more than any other team except my own Scotland. I have read several of Jones' articles over the years and am not a big fan. I am not sure why he has to display such obvious schadenfreude in this instance. My advice to any Kiwis reading it is just to ignore it - that an experienced rugby journalist can take such obvious delight at their teams failure in itself is a form of flattery!

[Greg]

Stephen Jones referring to France in his post before the game'In Cardiff, not even an outpost of the World Cup, and perhaps with few of their followers present, they will play an away match. They will almost certainly lose.'

How quickly you change your tune Mr Jones, here you state that the French have no chance against the All Blacks, and now you state that the All Blacks have no quality players. Which one is it?

The All Blacks didn't become a bad team overnight, 43 wins from 49 tests indicates that they surely have quality somewhere on the park. This of course includes zero losses to Northern Hemisphere sides, combined or otherwise, up until the quarterfinal. Perhaps thats why you feel the need to cast vitriolic remarks now? Perhaps you must jump on this win as if it were your team who beat New Zealand because its been 4 yrs since that happened?

[dogsgotlipstick]

"What do Shaun Wright-Phillips, Micah Richards, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand and Sol Campbell all have in common?

Well they’re all players in the English football squad…

And they’re all players of West-Indian descent. Pillaged if you will.

If you're going to complain about the All Blacks stealing Pacific Islanders you should stop your football team stealing players from the Caribbean!" - Rickster

that is a completely Idiotic argument my friend; pillaged suggests that these guys were abducted from their country to play in england. All of the aforementioned footballers were born in England. Therefore, they are, by definition English.

The AB's and wallabies on the other hand ARE systematically guilty of hand picking, and pilfering the best of the south sea islands, and have done so for years!

currently the ABs have: collins (Samoan) muliaina (samoan)rococoko (fijian)Sivivatu (fijian) Toeava (samoan)Lauaki (Tongan) Masoe (Samoan)So'oialo (Samoan)

in years past you had bunce, tuigamala, (both samoan) to name but two.

please note all of these guys were BORN in these countries; are you seeing a pattern emerging...

The ABs and Australia, have been weakening world rugby for years by poaching these players from tonga, fiji and samoa; purely because these countries are skint!

imagine how much stronger these countries could be, in terms of the world game, if they could keep these players.

[John (Edinburgh)]

All Black proved to be ordinary when the pressure was on. Where was all that imagination and flair when the game was officiated fairly?
The biggest frauds in World Rugby have been exposed. And to think the Aussies actually beat you this year.

Rodney So’oialo is nothing compared to Lawrence Dallaglio in his prime

4 more years new Zealand.

[Hugh Parkes]

The one eyed New Zealand administrators, press and rugby public are now blaming the ref for their loss. They are simply small minded babies who think they are never wrong. Grow up New Zealand. You lost and deservidly so.

[Luca]

As an Italian im happy a northern hemisphere is in the semi-finals. New Zealand seem to think they were untouchable but exposed as a very good team not great team. They always get away with obstruction, slowing the ball down and what we call forward laterals. What goes around comes around.

Ciao

[Geoff]

Hey – I am an All Blacks fan and naturally am disappointed that once again the ABs did not convert their undoubted talents and potential into the result that matters. However, I am concerned as to the level of vitriol and uninformed comment that this has generated – yes, a good old fashioned ribbing is in order but come on Mr Jones – take the patch off your eye please. You do yourself a disservice as a quality observer of the game by firing your cheap shots based on you own prejudices.

By and large, the test on the weekend was a good spectacle of the modern game. Two competitive teams going head to head. The ABs certainly secured sufficient ball and territory to achieve a comfortable win in most instances but a tenacious French defence that never flagged, coupled with devastating counter-attack when it mattered proved to be the difference between the two teams. There was an example late in the game where Nick Evans took a half break in the French 22. In other games, such a break has invariably led to a try. However, a single desperate French hand grasped onto the back of his shorts and held on for dear life, forcing Nick to throw a fifty-fifty pass that was knocked on. To me, that single act summed up the magnificent French defensive effort.

I thought that the referee’s game was okay – not stunning, but that is hardly surprising given that this was the most significant appointment in his relatively short career.

I thought that on balance the sin-binning of Luke Macallister was warranted. Up until then Luke had played well, creating considerable havoc in the French mid field. However, his slow and deliberate turn in front of the French player appeared calculated to obstruct rather than a genuine attempt to recover the ball and given its position on the field (10 metres out from the New Zealand line), I can understand how the referee formed his decision. I also note that the act was unnecessary – the French player would not have scored from it as the ball was covered by MacDonald. .

The pass leading up to the second try was forward but these things happen and will not always be picked up no matter how experienced the referee is. I note that the referee was not well positioned to observe that particular pass (he was approx 10 metres behind the actual play and behind the players rather than being to the side) but the modern game moves fast and referees can’t always be in the right place at the right time.

I thought that he was weaker in his interpretation of the offside line around some of the rucks, particularly in the pick and go rucks. We have the benefit of slow motion and replays - he does not and he must make his decisions in an instant. Perhaps more experience at the highest level may have supported Mr Barnes in his decision making. Perhaps greater support from the linesmen would have helped. But this is all speculative. All in all, the ABs had the winning of the game irrespective of these issues but were unable to take it.

I say “well done France” - allez les bleus – you played with passion and defended like titans. You took your chances when it mattered. Best of luck for the rest of the tournament.

As an aside, I have a very good mate who is Welsh. He still reminds me of the All Blacks-Welsh game in 1978 when Andy Haden’s dive out of the lineout near the end of the game led to Brian McKecknie kicking the winning penalty. I tell him over and over again – get over it and move on.

I say the same to other All Black fans but please Mr Jones exercise better judgement.

[Peter Smith]

Talking of arrogance and pride (before a fall), I recommend anyone to take a look at the pre-match report of the England -Australia game in last Saturday's Weekend Australian.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22538573-5013861,00.html

[Kevin Brown]

Syd H reckons all those matches in the Tri nations and those games against Australia for the Bledisloe Cup are meaningless! Those games are played between the 3 top ranked countries in the world. Throw in successive wins against all the home nations and France and Argentina over the last three years (sometimes with our second team) and that compares more impressively with the efforts of England in the last four years in the six nations which is played for between the seventh ranked team (England) and teams like Italy who have averaged about 8 points to 80 against the AB's, Scotland and Ireland (who can manage to scrape past Namibia who hold the record for most points against in the world cup (145).
Yes of course we wanted to win this world Cup. Virtually every rugby columnist throughout the world rated the All Blacks as favourites. Why? Because over the last three years they have played some superb rugby. Forwards and backs have some wonderful skills. So they lost! Good god, England have lost 14 games out of 20??. If they manage to scrape past USA, Tonga, Samoa and Aussie but lose to france, does that make them more successful than the AB's. If you think it does, I wonder how you must feel supporting the world champions (currently seventh ranked in the world) and game after game having being beaten by a group of weal six nations teams week after week! We will get over this particular loss, will regroup and look forward to building another team (with some new blood) and play in real competitions such as Super 14 and Tri nations; will continue to play six nations teams both here and in the UK and enjoy the results. By the way, I have not mentioned the ref, but is it true that he is not doing any more games?
Sleep well.

[Simon]

Jones, it is official, you are an idiot. Who knows why the Times contuinue to print your dross. You shouldn't feel so threatened by a tiny nation at the other end of the earth.

[Jack Knight]

NZ might have demonstrated that they are a great rugby playing nation between World Cups, but they have only made it to the finals twice... putting them on a par with England:
NZ 2 Finals
England 2 Finals
France 2 Finals
Australia 3 Finals
SA 1 Final (not included prior to 1995)
Either France or England will overtake them this year..... sobering thought for AB supporters!

[rugbyfannz]

Nevermind the one game, the 'choke' tag has been indelibly added to the All Black franchise and by extension, to the Kiwi culture at large (America's Cup). It would be nice if the NZ media clued in their readers and listeners to that sad fact.

Four more years? Obviously NZ hasn't visualized what it will be like to host the games with The Choker tag hanging around their necks.

[All Black Fan 2]

I totally disagree Mr. Jones, saying that the All Blacks are average players is just a lie. The credit for our loss should not be given to 'choking', but rather to the fantastic spirit the French showed. A team, which, on their day are capable of beating anyone. Congratulations to them should be headlined not all black failings.

[Johnny99]

The hatred & vitriol that the All Blacks have inspired from those in both the media & the wider public in the wake of their unexpected defeat says much more about high levels of envy that their relative success has on others & the propensity of those others to revert to the most infanitile insults in an attempt to hide their inferiorities of not just the rugby kind.

Difficult as the defeat may be for New Zealand & their fans it will soon be subsumed in as the next match rolls around, and these days they won't have long to wait. What also needs to be considered is that only one country will be victorious at these tournaments & all of this vitriol will subside a tad quickly one suspects.

On a brighter note, this tournament will be brighter for having the hosts still in it & they need to be congratulated for that. Congratulations France.
Onward.

[KMS]

Netball? NETBALL? No-one in the UK follows netball.

Stop grasping at straws and cry like real men, you AB fundamentalists. You're embarrassing the genuine NZ sports fans out there.....

[Gregor]

I wish Stephen Jones's articles were still published by our newspapers. The lessons they teach us are invaluable and give us a good insight into what is "wrong" with All Black rugby.

There are certain parts to his articles that pull at our heart strings but only because they are true.

I don't think the players are arrogant but their lack of respect for the fans (for example, not going out to see them after the loss) and the often condescending attitude by Graham Henry does leave you with the feeling they are arrogant. And I can certainly see how other nations may be left with that impression too.

Throughout the 90's and early part of this decade, if you actually read what Stephen Jones was saying rather than looking at his criticsm emotionally, he generally hit the nail on the head in terms of what was wrong with our rugby. His criticsm of the "flowery" nature of Super 12 rugby (as it was then) and the way it made our forwards "soft" was, I belive, on the mark. We subsequently worked on our scrum (successfully I think) and on gettig forwards more competitive at rucks and mauls (also successfully) I believe). We have either dominated these area or competed with all opposition teams in these areas in the last 5 years (even in the loss). I believe Stephen Jones has acknowleged our improvement in these areas.

Now he is saying that we thought we would win the cup because we have so much talent. The point is it's the 15 on the field and 7 subs that count. Not the rest of the depth. It's a very good point. I think we'll have to learn from it. In future, we not look too far forward. We must pick the best 22 each week and just deal with the world cup as it comes up.

In addition, we must pick players who can change the game plan if necessary. This is a skill yet to be learned.

Finally, the referee may be an outstanding referee but he ahd a poor game. He showed that he was inexperienced but he did not lose it for the All Blacks. Hopefully, he will learn from it too.

I believe Stphen Jones comments need to be scrutinised more closely by the coaching staff. He has such a dislike for all things New Zealand (so be it, it's his choice), it provides real insight into our weaknesses because he is not blinded in any way by any amount of loyalty.

I hope one of our daily papers starts printing his articles again.

[Johnny99]

The hatred & vitriol that the All Blacks have inspired from those in both the media & the wider public in the wake of their unexpected defeat says much more about high levels of envy that their relative success has on others & the propensity of those others to revert to the most infanitile insults in an attempt to hide their inferiorities of not just the rugby kind.

Difficult as the defeat may be for New Zealand & their fans it will soon be subsumed in as the next match rolls around, and these days they won't have long to wait. What also needs to be considered is that only one country will be victorious at these tournaments & all of this vitriol will subside a tad quickly one suspects.

On a brighter note, this tournament will be brighter for having the hosts still in it & they need to be congratulated for that. Congratulations France.
Onward.

[B.D. Calhoun]

On Saturday no sooner had the final whistle gone at the Millennium stadium Graham Henry was already looking for work knowing full well that for a rugby mad nation this defeat was too much for them to bare and the parade and the chants of "four more years" will have to wait for another time, At the moment his reputation is in shreds as well as the knighthood which he no doubt would have received from the queen if NZ had lifted the trophy, yet is it all really fare!

It wasn't long before thethe knifes were out and the "know it all's" in NZ i.e. David Kirk and Colin Meads were leading the criticism. Yes Henry did tout for the coaches job, he had four years to prepare a young squad that was hungry for success and he was given great leeway back in N.Z and all his demands were met. As a consequence he stepped on a few toes and when you step on people just as in politics you make enemies. Clive Woodward the former England coach experience this. When England were shown the door in the same stage in the 1999 world cup there were calls for him to be sacked. He was saved only because it was considered that he had not been at the helm long enough.

However, although Henry never said " judge me on the world cup" as Woodward did, the fact that Henry never admonished those in NZ who by the summer of 2004 crowned the all blacks as the "real world champions" after a two test demolition of England only added to the shock on Saturday. England were poor holders of the world cup and a string of defeats only enhanced this opinion. Despite this immature view and the sneering towards the northern hemisphere, in particular ignoring that England team's feat in 2003, from this point onwards it was off to the races. Henry's all blacks racked up four Bledesloe cups, three tri-nations wins, a three test defeat of Clive Woodward’s British Lions and a home-nation grand slam in 2005 with in effect two different IX's alternating in the four tests. From 2004 to last Friday only four tests were lost and none of them to any of the northern Hemisphere teams!

Yet that is not good enough, now rugby success is judged on a couple of games every four years and getting the team name engraved on a trophy only 20 years old. The international game is so rich with tradition and there are so many great international rivalries I couldn’t even write them all! No international match is a friendly and there are great rugby occasions every year. Is being world cup winners all it's cracked up to be?

Be that as it may many are asking now what happened in Cardiff? Henry should have been alarmed after the French lost to Argentina and the likely hood of playing them in Wales. NZ had not played a competitive match against top opposition since August while by this time France had been battle hardened. In addition, the news of about a dozen top N.Z. internationals announcing that they were leaving for lucrative contracts in Europe in the months leading up to the world cup did not sit well with me. It came across as arrogant and lacking commitment to the cause, the players were thinking too far ahead ! To me it's like a sprinter easing up on the track and looking across when he think that he won the race only to be pipped on the line by somebody who leans forward!

What ever effect all of the above had is any bodies guess, but as any team will testify you can't win all the time, maybe the all blacks peaked last year and were over cooked. Many harp on about it being 1999, but to be fair the games don't compare, in 1999 N.Z. imploded and in the end were humiliated. Although a quarter final exit is in it's self an embarrassment the N.Z. performance on Saturday wasn't. Yes they did seem void of ideas and were also tactically inept, but their commitment and spirit were up there, all the statistics with possession and territory is a testament to that. They were only a penalty or a drop goal away from victory against a very committed French team and if they had done it, we would all be singing a different song!

[den]

I am not a fan of Stephen Jones, given has rabid and constant anti-league rantings and his flowery, overworked articles, in which he picks and chooses his quotes and comments in a particularly sly and underhand way. Particularly offensive has been his treatment of Andy Farrell during this campaign.

However, he makes a few good points about Kiwis. And by the way, Mr Simon Rattue of the NZ Herald is more than a match for him in the way of writing total crap.

I'm a pom but lived in Auckland for 3 years now. Kiwis are not at all generally arrogant. Nice people, fantastic country. However, they're adoration of the ABs is nothing short of nauseating. It is effectively a substitute for religion over here. Endless soppy, pukey, ridiculous advertising about having black blood in the veins, AB's this, ABs that, ABs bloody everywhere. There is even now a nauseating ad campaign about the total number of ABs "of this earth" played to ridiculous music and the usual atmosphere of faux-history and greatness. Why don't they ever give it a rest !? This is part of the problem. The whole "All Black" thing has just become a ridiculous overblown monster. After losing just 4 of 48 tests there is no doubt of the class and skill of the team. But what happened with France ? They bottled it ! They mentally crumbled ! Where was the drop-goal that would have saved them ? Where was the captaincy of Mccaw ? They looked like a crowd of schoolboys. Had Shelford or even better, the mentally iron-hard Sean Fitzpatrick been there, the outcome would have been surely different. they need to FORGET they are "All Blacks" Just bin the whole dumb lot of it, the whole false 'middle-class white blokes doing the haka' bullshit, the whole ABs 'religion' and just get back to remembering they are 15 blokes on a pitch with 80 minutes in which to show grit, passion and intensity. Get Fitzpatrick into the coaching set-up asap, and perhaps Robbie Deans too.

[Clint]

Not playing Howlett against France was STUPID.
Luke McAllister is underrated in NZ and if he leaves to play in Europe there will be a big hole in our talent base.
I’m getting sick of the Haka too (Im a kiwi). Especially when you lose afterwards. Save your energy for the game.

[posty]

Dear Mr Jones let me first acknowledge that I am a NZ'r who resides in Australia. I am first and foremost an All Black supporter but support Aus aginst all other teams.
I would like to say firstly that I do always enjoy reading your columns. I feel that much of what you write is utter garbage yet some of it is very insightful.
Now to the All Blacks: you seem to have confused the team with some of its less intelligent supporters. The All Blacks themselves over the last few years have really been quite gracious both in victory and defeat. McCaw and Collins have been widely quoted as saying that no matter how many games they win before the world cup it means nothing at the cup. Unfortunately many thousands of AB supporters are very arrogant and simply do not seem to learn from history. Also they are not gracious either in victory or defeat.
To some other points in your article: Yes in his prime Dallaglio is the best backrower I have ever seen. Does that mean that McCaw, Smith, Kefu, Kronfeld etc are also not magnificent players in their own right? Does anybody else in the whole world really believe that Jerry Collins is a "one trick pony"? That really is an insult to a very committed and skillful footballer. Did you happen to notice his backing up of a midfield break and offload in the tackle to set up the AB's first try?
Now lastly some points on the actual game and why france won: 1.France's defence was brilliant and the main reason for their win.
2. France played absloutely perfect rugby in the last 50 minutes of the game as the ref did not issue one penalty against them in that time. I wonder in the history of Frances rugby has this ever occurred when playing against one of the top 6 teams?
3. The dubious sin binning. 13-3 before 13-13 after
4. Something that all the commentators seemed to have overlooked: with 25 minutes to go our version of Jonny limped off. 10 minutes later his relacement limped off.
5. Around this time France scored there matchwining try illegally from a forward pass.

In conclusion I would say that despite all this France still deserved to win.

[Mr PkD]

Why not link to the article? Your excerpts make it sound outrageous, which it wasn't. Extracting a sentance out of a paragraph can be misleading, but extracting one word out of a sentance to represent a story shows a total lack of skill & integrity.

The too much talent quote was David's reaction to the rotation policies, meaning that by Henry continually swapping players and combinations the sum never became greater than the parts. He was not inferring that we had more, or even better talent than anyone else in the world.

The Gods comment was "our gods have fallen", a reference to a lot of Kiwi's views of the team (in a sporting sense), not stating a fact that All Blacks are Real Gods.

[Dave in Wellington]

All those Kiwis saying the ref put you out of the tournament - Wake up. Your team lost that match by themselves, yet again, they choked. The AB's of old (and the players this weekend should be good enough) would not have worried about that forward pass and would just have put another 20 points on the board.
I can't say i agree with all of SJ's sentiments - i respect the AB team enormously and enjoy watching them play, and they are great to watch against a weaker side, but unfortunately they bought into their own hype and didn't approach this match in the right way. A few points SJ made are obviously hitting a raw nerve - truth hurts. You are not the best team in the world unless you win the biggest cometition in the world, and you havent done that for 20 years.

[Syd H]

I'm not saying England are better than New Zealand. We still have a chance in this World Cup (and the last one was much easier) because France and Australia knocked them out for us.

But you've got to show a little humility in defeat and acknowledge that England have done something right to have won the last World Cup and still be in this one when the All Blacks aren't.

Ignore the bad attitude of Souster and Jones in kicking All Black fans when you're down. But I still think any All Black fan who says he doesn't care about not winning the World Cup is an outright liar.

[Syd H]

Kevin, the World Cup winners in rugby are still England. What a stupid question. And there was no luck or fluke in it.

England were the number 1 team in the world before that World Cup and had beaten everyone in the world both home and away. Where's the fluke there?

[Richard]

It is a shame Stephen Jones has again diminished himself and The Times with an oh so predictable anti-All Black rant and misrepresentation of David Kirk's article. A shame because he has some interesting points to make, but these are buried below the vitriol.

Hi sweeping gneralisations make genuine rugby fans of all shades cringe, and this is why he is held in so little self-esteem by Southern hemisphere teams, supporters and scribes. Not to mention quite a few in the Northern hemisphere.

Whatever Jones says, rugby fans know that the Southern hemisphere teams have largely been dominant in the last 20 years, despite two point wins by England and France at the weekend...4 World Cups, pasting of the Lions in NZ, UK Grand Slam by NZ, far better win ratio etc). That's not to say that England have not had great teams - the 2003 team deserved it's Cup - and the French team in particular has been held in high regard for many years. Most AB fans acknowledge this - not that you'd know it from Jones labelling us all an arrogant dot in the sea.

What Jones also conveniently fails to see (much like the 3m forward pass that English ref Barnes missed) is the humility and good sportsmanship displayed by the AB's in losing to a team that they openly credited with playing the better rugby. No AB mentioned the forward pass or the sin-binning, as they could justifiably done so.

The AB's were tactically naieve and fell into the the French trap of playing to the their drumbeat.

Most AB fans I have spoken to have acknowledged that the French were smarter and defended like Demons. Many hope that they will go well, but England will be tough. As will the Boks, who we have always admired for their no nonsense rugby.

If only Jones could see shades of grey, we'd all be better served by some informed debate.

[D Evans]

You Kiwi fans - you are such bad losers. Face it, you lost. You lost against a better, more determined, more organized team. Your leaders on the field went into hiding. And remember Andy Haden 1978? Yeah, you introduced cheating into the game of rugby. What goes around, comes around. Back to the drawing board. You really can't fail in 2011 at home, can you.....?

[debbie fearon]

I dont think any All Black supporter will try and take the excuse of poor refereeing back through the last twenty years. The fact remains however, that this time, poor and/or biased refereeing was responsible for the AB's losing on the weekend. The World Cup now looks like a farce.

[David G]

We deserve a good shellacking from the northern press for the last several years' sledging (of northern hemisphere teams). Hell, if Oz and NZ has won we would be crowing. So we need to cop it sweet.

Hate to say it but beneath his peculiarly Welsh apoplexy a lot of what Jones said was true: Collins and So'oialo were ordinary (and have always been limited); our backs were poor, etc. We will eat some humble pie and hopefully learn from it. If we get over our notions of a divine right to win the RWC title: who knows, perhaps we might win it some time?

But moving beyond the mud slinging: bravo France! You did it again.

The semi-final against England will be a cracker. I am in the rare position of quite liking this England team - they are exceedingly humble and are finally playing to their ability. Sheridan and Wilkinson are back to form, and the English back row is emerging as one of the best going. May the best team win.

[Syd H]

Come on, guys. Jones is not English.

And remember, England have not lost to Australia in the Rugby World Cup since 1991. And France have not lost to New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup since 1987.

If you can overlook that then there's something wrong with you: you clearly don't want to address the problem and start winning.

[Carlos OLGUIN-TRELAWNY]

Hello. LOVED the article. I'm so thrilled the arrogant NZ are out and England still in... to face Argentina in the final.
I'm an Argie yes and I want you to bet the also arrogants French. I don't want Sarkozy to use sacred rugby for his low politics.
Again, I look forward for a Argentina vs England final. What a match that will be!!!

[Jeanne d'Arc]

Stephen Jones, what a marvellous way to bring out the insecurity and arrogance that afflicts the typical All Black supporter. You have just the right red cape to wave in front of those easily enraged bulls! As for the All Black trolls calling themselves Brits - don't promote yourselves, children! I love the way the Kiwis apparently always have the best team in the world - despite the fact that you have not won the World Cup since 1987! Sorry guys, anyone can win the soft games - but the test of great teams is performance on the big occasion. By those standards, the All Blacks flunked hopelessly - and you know it. Sure you scored points - when it didn't matter, you played pretty rugby - when it didn't matter - but when it did matter, you lost to a French team that played like men. As for blaming the referee, well, tell yourselves that's why you lost - and see if you can stretch that feeble excuse back over the 20 years since you last won the world cup! Having trouble? Of course you are! Even the Australians would be ashamed to offer such pathetic excuses - and they usually whine enough. For my British cousins, I salute you, and we shall see what the really good teams can manage in the semi-finals. Thank God the minnows like Australia and New Zealand have been put to the blade as they deserve. Allez!

[sarah]

when did losing a rugby game become an opportunity to slate a whole country? We are just a 'dot in the sea'? What a horrible arrogant thing to say on something completely unrugby related? No wonder terrorists attack your country, you belittle the rest of the world because you think you are better. And I recall a week ago when an even smaller dot in the sea sent the Welsh packing!

At least the All Blacks only dissapoint us every 4 years.....

[Syd H]

It is true that all the England fans are getting carried away. But that's fair-weather fans in any country and any sport for you.

England's tight five is superior to the others left in the tournament. It's silly to suggest otherwise. But as you say, if England don't score tries from their opportunities, they're less likely to win.

It is interesting that the English, French, South African, Argentinian and Fijian players showed they can beat the defensive line from first phase on occasion but that Australia and New Zealand (who are renowned for this) failed to take advantage of 20-odd phases of possession on more than one occasion.

With Wilkinson, Catt and Tait in midfield the English backline doesn't look so bad. Catt especially has all the tricks to put defences under pressure and release the pace men of Tait, Sackey and Robinson. I guarantee that if the England backline had had the benefit of 20 phases of possession, they would have scored.

That doesn't mean France can't end it all next week. It just means you should give teams that have progressed further than you the respect that they deserve. And journalists should not kick good teams and loyal fans when they are down.

[Robfather]

Heard it all before. AB's win and it's cos the opposition was poor / they cheat / they steal players. The rare occasions they lose its because they are rubbish and finally shown up for it. Yawn whatever.

I'll tell you who will get shown up. England. A lot of England supporters seem to be getting carried away. The backline didn't look any less clueless against Australia than in the rest of the tournament. Seriously at times they look like they don't even know where to stand. Worth considering that england blew oz off the field up front yet won by two points. SA, France and Argentina could all match them up front and unless the backline has a dramatic transformation a repeat of the debacle as encountered vs SA in the pools is on the cards.

For all the comments on coplacency England supporters should look at their own camp. One win doesn't make a team of world beaters and one loss doesn't assign a team to the scrap heap.

NZ made the fatal mistake of underestimating the French...AGAIN!!. Hence their demise. The ABs were not up to the task when it came to games that actually offered some realistic opposition. Oh dear...how sad...never mind.

[croc57]

just a thought but it seems like it doesn't really matter how much 'lovely rugby' you play in 4 years, it's not much good if it doesn't work during the WC. The impression I have is the WC is a gritty 'don't make mistakes' kind of game and if the ABs thin k playing lovely riugby is the be all then they are sadly wrong.........dream on and keep losing or guts it out......the boks seem happy too.

[jakethemuss]

if you come to n.z in for years mr jones, i would suggest body guards.

[debbie fearon]

There is no way Wayne Barnes can be lauded for his performance on Saturday - he was appalling! How blinkered and biased of you. Even Paddy O'Brien has shown what he now thinks of Barnes - by completely excluding him from any more duties for the rest of the Cup. Wayne Barnes owes all New Zealand rugby supporters an apology for such a poor display.

[jim]

i was the only kiwi in a packed brussels bar on saturday night. i had never realized how much everyone hates the allblacks until that moment. i have never felt prouder to be a kiwi. why do they hate us so much? arrogance? what you call arrogance, i call burning pride. pride in a team that in over 100 years of competition has never been beaten by 15 points. no other nation can match that. that's why they hate us. because we rock!!! welcome to n.z 2011. we have never lost at home in a world cup. unlike england, france and australia. losing at home. that's what i call choking. come on the boks!! you are the team we kiwis truely respect.

[Syd H]

(I apologise for my lengthy post below - I am slightly delirious with a fever). Well, I personally enjoy Stephen Jones' articles on the whole.

This one is completely different to his usual articles: it's basically a long-winded way of giving the finger to all the New Zealand fans who continually slate him - when there is some truth to what he says. I'm not saying it's diplomatically worded but he's not completely wrong.

A portion of the New Zealand fans (though not Graham Henry, Wayne Smith, Steve Hansen or most of the All Blacks squad) do think that New Zealand are always the best team in the world and that other teams who win the world cup have somehow fluked it or their team choked.

That is arrogance because it ignores the fact that the other side played the better rugby - ie. winning rugby.

To have all the ball and 20+ phases time and again, and not thrash the opposition, says something about the immense French defence and discipline and the lack of true attacking cutting edge in the AB backline on the day.

But that's what this is all about: on their day, any of the top teams can beat any of the others and inter-world cup results don't count for anything. England haven't lost to Australia in the world cup since 1991. France haven't lost to New Zealand in the world cup since 1987.

Since all the work in between world cups is geared towards winning the next one, does it really matter how many times New Zealand or Australia beat the English or French 3rd XV if they don't win the big games?

Graham Henry should not have been sacked. He is the best coach you guys have had in years. It's not his fault that your team hasn't had to battle through adversity to win the odd match from time to time.

I remember when you could never write off the ABs back in Fitzy's era - they could come back from any scoreline if they were still on the pitch with 20 minutes to go. Even with food poisoning that team almost beat the Boks in '95.

As for Dallaglio, in his prime he knew how to win matches and adapt to the ref. McCaw, great player that he is, couldn't adapt to the ref. Both players spend 95% of every match on the wrong side of the offside line and with their hands in the ruck - but that's streetwise play.

I think the real difference between South Africa against Fiji on Sunday and the Wallabies and All Blacks is John Smit. He got his players to snap out of it and get over their shock of just how much better the other team was than they'd expected. That betrays a degree of believing your own press and dismissing the chances of your opponents. Jacques Fourie and Lote Tuqiri will hopefully not engage in trash talk in future matches. Note: no trash talk from the ABs.

One last thing about arrogance (I apologise for this lengthy post - I am ill with flu and not quite coherent): there is a certain arrogance to the SANZAR administration (but again, not the coaches) in not doing anything to include Argentina, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji in any level of meaningful competition. Say what you like about Wales and Scotland - at least they've played test matches in Fiji, Tonga and Samoa.

Final comment: I'm amazed at the quality of Fijian wingers. Delasau for Fiji, Rokocoko and Sivivatu for New Zealand, Tuqiri for Australia and then Caucau who didn't even make it to the tournament. Imagine that three-quarter line in any of the top teams. Frightening stuff.

[BARKERPLACE]

On any sensible newsgroup, Mr. Jones's screed would be considered a classic troll - no member of the French team who fought the All Blacks so bravely would write such intemperate nonsense. In a best of seven World Series of rugby, the`All Blacks would be virtually unbeatable against anybody. I think it was Dominici who said something like NZ would probably beat France 9 out of 10 times and his team just had to hope for that lucky one in ten. And this unlikely but wonderful event came to pass; which is one of the best reasons for watching sport. If France play as well, and are as lucky, next weekend England will be in trouble.

[Timbo]

So you Northern Hemisphere teams can get up for 1 game in every 4 years. Well done!

And we will crush you in every game for the next 4 years.

So the world cup has saved you useless Poms, Welsh, French and the rest - cause you couldn't play two decent games back to back. Oh and you have ruined Rugby as a result as you have made the RWC the ONLY thing that matters.

Again - well done!

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October 08, 2007
Too much talent? All Blacks have nothing but arrogance
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