John Hopkins responds to your comments on who is the better Williams, Martyn or Shane?

John Hopkins piece on the two Williams certainly got a few of you hot under the collar. The suggestion that Martyn might be a better finisher than the more renowned Shane elicited a huge number of comments. Here, John responds to some of your thoughts.

Agree with some of this article - Shane Wiliams should score more often. Martyn Williams is a very good flanker. However, if Martyn Williams was doing what the best no7s do - ie. winning the ball at the break down and turning over opposition ball, then I'd question whether he'd have half the tries that he has. An excellent player - yes, but people who play the game know that the back rower scoring the tries is not the team mate they'd pick first. George

JH: Good point but Martyn, currently in terrific form, does score a lot.

Shane Williams is a doll,he has no place in modern rugby and the sooner a welsh coach realises that and drops him for a player of stature will be the day that wales will rise frm the ashes and again be a proud playing side of real men. Evan Davies

JH: I thought I was extreme. I think Warren Gatland would look twice at Shane if someone of six foot or more were as elusive and dangerous. Jamie Roberts who is bigger than any Wales forward of the amateur era never mind back, is a very contemporary player. Size is not all in the modern game but it is a lot.

When Shane Williams comes in-field is when he looks most like bringing Wales back into a game. When he comes in-field is when, with large portions of brilliance, he does most to frustrate. G Davies

JH: Thank you for putting my argument so eloquently. My thoughts entirely.

When Neil Back was asked if he'd have a chat with a group of Gloucester fan's, his answer was 'F**k Off'. Shane Williams bought a round of beers, went over to the guys, introduced himself, and politely asked if he could join them! It's so refreshing to see pro rugby players smiling and mixing with the grass roots players and fans. Just as it shouold be. Gareth

JH: Gareth, Whatever else I may have said about Shane, he's a gent, a really nice bloke.

Both Martyn and Shane Williams are handy players, but I think we are getting a bit carried away here..
Shane Williams does have a good scoring record, but is not really in the top tier with habana, clerk, rockocoko and co. Martyn Williams is an honest openside - but to say that he is the world's best is taking it a few steps too far! Teich

JH: It's a matter of opinion, teich, as to whether Martyn is world class. I think he is and so do a number of other observers. I think Shane is world class if it comes to that.

This is utter nonsense. And if your going on about level heads etc how about when Martyn ran in that try unopposed against Fiji in the RWC and failed to plant the ball under the posts - instead going out wide which led SJ to miss the conversion and well, we all know what came next. Gwilym

JH: Gwilym. Yes this is true. He should have run under the posts (and SJ should not have missed the conversion) but that is not my point. My point is that Martyn finishes off moves well and Shane does not do the same so well. 

What a stupid, and just plain wrong article. Daniel

What balls. Neither player's role is primarily as finisher (though if you look at Shane's try per cap rate he's in the top 5 in the world, currently). Williams Shane's job is to make breaks. Among Williams Martyn's jobs is tackling, and the truth is he's rubbish at it. He's brilliant at other things, but if this article were the other way around it'd make a lot more sense. Simon3W

Shanes agility and skill make him a unique international asset for Wales and a joy to watch. In a game increasingly coached to a muscular, riskless, standstill he is the one player of his generation that's worth the proverbial entrance fee to watch. His finishing is excellent. Tim

JH: Sorry to have made you all so agitated. My point stands however. For another explanation see what G Davies said above.

Mr Hopkins - Do you actually watch any rugby or do you make this stuff up after drinking too much in the pub? I realise that you are under editorial edict to poke fun at anything outside of the M25 but you really should choose your targets when sober. Jonathan Davies

JH: I do watch rugby and have been doing so for 50 years. I wasn't short of an idea, though I understand your thinking that I might have been. It comes as a result of watching Wales play again and again and becoming frustrated at Shane. I am of course often captivated by him too.  That what makes his mistakes so frustrating.

What's this?! Criticism of Shane 'who cannot be tackled in a phone box' Williams...? Shane's falls are due in great part to the poor quality of the playing surface at the Millenium Stadium (my only criticism of that great Cathedral of Rugby). No other international pitch cuts up as much as the Millenium...  Eldorado

JH: I have asked why the turf at the Millennium Stadium is so slippery. The answer is that it isn't very good. Remember those dreadful looking pitches of not long ago. But it is looking better now. Then there is the question of Shane's blades. I am not sure they are quite as secure as old fashioned studs.

This article is with all due respect complete b*ll*cks. Shane Williams has scored 37 tries in 53 tests (3 a sub). By any measure that is a world class strike rate. Martyn Williams has scored 13 in 78 (10 as sub) an excellent record for a forward but he hardly is going to give Shane Williams lessons on finishing. BTW Rokocoko has 43 in 48, Habana 30 in 36, Sivivatu 21 in 21, Vincent Clerc 20 in 30 and Tuquiri 27 in 52 so Shane's try scoring record can hold its own in that company (especially as he has generally been playing for a less succesful side). Jim Matthews

JH: But how many more would he/could he/might he have scored?

Shano does fall over a bit when he tries too many steps too quickly, but his finishing is exemplary. Yes, Shano's just a small guy with an amazing skill, and it's that that makes him so inspirational to the welsh public. It's very much a case of David taking on, and beating, Goliath. Rob

JH: Rob, you're right. He is a David as in Goliath figure and this side of him appeals to me as much as to anyone. But as I said above, how many more tries could he/might he/would he have scored?

Was it 6 tries in the world cup pool stage? In a below average team? How many did Habana score in a run that went all the way to the final? I can't remember exactly, I think nine? My point stands. Shane's try scoring record is hard to knock. If you want to wind people up by knocking an icon's point scoring record, why not start with Wilkinson's 60% kicking rate in the world cup? Twiggy

I think this article is just to get us goin' an' might be something to do with our team being selected early and not much for these 'ere Press Johnnies to say about it. Richard Jones

JH: Nice try Richard but this article has been forming in my mind for months as I sit in press boxes and watch Shane not scoring or not making breaks or not finishing.

I would love to know who wrote this. Shane Williams is without a doubt the best winger in the British Isles at the moment. Only Clerc from France touches him in the Northern hemisphere. I'm not sure exactly how many tries he has scored, but I think its somewhere in the region of 36 for Wales, which is pretty damn good. And I'm not even Welsh!! Dave

You make it sound like Shane should consider a walk through his living room where he doesn’t crash through a wall or kick over furniture a resounding success. You make it sound like he just topples over if he starts walking too fast. I agree with Rich Thomas. My main criticism of Williams is him losing the ball when he gets tackled, but as a small winger myself, I know how hard it is to present when you're wrapped up. Promit C

JH: You've said it. International rugby is hard. That is why it is so frustrating to see Shane do so many good things - and then fall over or drop the ball.

I bet there is an apt African proverb somewhere which goes something like 'he who asks 'which is the BEST animal?' when confronted with the diversity of the lion and the giraffe is missing the point.' Ben

This blog is a bit silly.Shane Williams is one of the best finishers in the game - look at the stats. In the RWC2007 he scored 6 tries in 4 games.That was in a team not playing well. Nobody had a better tries:matches ratio in the world cup than Shane. Sam

JH: But it's not enough. That's my point.

A bit harsh on ickle Shane there, I think. I know he hasn't got the power of a Sackey or the Volcano, or the speed of Strettle but his ratio of tries to matches isn't bad. For a Welshman. Rupert Tarquinson

I'm having a real problem reconciling your Bio (on the left of the page) with your content. It really is one of the most pointless and inaccurate sporting articles I have read in recent times. If that is the best your Rugby intellect can muster, I really would stick to writing about Golf! Haydn

JH: I've been watching for 50 years and writing about it for almost as long. I'm entitled to my views.

What a thoroughly bizarre article. If this were a comment on the Wales v England match at Cardiff in 2007 then it might have some merit. As a summation of a whole career it is absurd. Are we really being asked to countenance the idea that a player can score 37 tries in 53 Tests in a mediocre side and still be profligate? David Holbrook

JH: The answer is yes, yes, and yes.

I guess Shane must have run off with this particular's journo's missus. What a load of balderdash! Leighton Williams

JH: Still married when I last looked.

I think what you are forgetting, is how bad the quality of the pitch at the Millenium stadium is. Too often the surface is slippery when it shouldn't be and it causes many great players, Shane included, to slip in circumstances where they would ordinarily not. Matt Dalton

JH: Matt you're right. See what I said above about the surface. The new turf at the MS should be better. Though today's rain in Cardiff an dthe fact that the roof is open and will remain so isn;'t going to make it any easier for Shane.

"Time and again those dazzling feet of Shane's let him down. He trips. He spins out of a tackle and falls to the ground. He drops the ball. He loses his footing. How often at the Millennium Stadium has he fallen over?" To answer your last question, I genuinely can't think of any. Rich Thomas

JH: Watch him closely in the next game. You haven't been paying enough attention so far.

Comments

[Barrie Richards]

Listen guys regardless of who is best is a question of debate.
A more fitting tribute for these two players is to say they are without doubt truly world class.

I just think it is refreshing to see these guys playing the game of rugby union in the style and manner it was meant to be played. They are experts of keeping the ball alive and always looking to make a difference.

Shane Williams has 39 tries in approx as many games, whilst playing most of his career in a poor Welsh team. Doesnt score as many tries as he should? Come off it!! That is as good a strike rate as anyone could ever expect. At the moment he is one of the most potent finishers in the game.

Williams nr 2 - well... he will be the Lions first choice in 18 months, if he makes himself available. It will be great to see him going forward hopefully playing with a good pack.

Is there still room in this game for the smaller guys with exceptional skills - yep !

[R G JAMES]

JH's article was a classic piece of sports journalism ,using hyperbole to make his points.Williams Shane illustrates the point, in comparison to the giants of today, that a very fast ,skilful and elusive winger is just as as effective in opening up defenses.This is particularly true in the second half when defenses are tiring.Maybe, that is why Wales, in contrast to England, are such a good second half side.Remember Grant Batty and Gerald Davies? The other Williams is no giant either.But ,if I was his coach I would want to know why Wales are losing so many turnovers.Both are ,of course, by today's standards world class.

[Oliver Watkins]

Mr Hopkins, your views are perfectly entitled to your views but what you haven't actually done is qualify them.
I would love you to name some instances where Shane Williams has failed to score when the line was at his mercy and every match at the Millenium Stadium seems to result in a number of players (rugby or football) that fall without explanation.
There are examples in my mind of things that have occured in his career that he has come in for some stick. Like getting caught by David Wallace in 2001 or dropping the ball against Canada with no one around him when Wales were still trying to get back into the game at the last world cup.
Your view is your view but it is a remarkably miserable one. In fact for every instance that you can name where Shane Williams should have scored I will name you an instance where he or the team did when the odds were stacked against, I'll go first:
1) Sonny Parker try vs New Zealand RWC 2003, Shane Williams line break paved the path for Sonny Parker to score in the corner.
2) Shane Williams hatrick try against Argentina, summer tour 2004. Line break results in 1 on 1 with Argentine Full Back, left right left again and the full back is on his back side and Shane is under the posts.
3) Jonathan Thomas try vs Italy, 2005. A loose Italian kick through where Shane picked the ball up between the 22 and 10mtr line, 2 steps from a standing start and he raced 50 mts up field before throwing a long pass off his left hand to Tom Shanklin. The ball went through another phas before being shipped on to Jonathan Thomas to score.
4) Brent Cockbain try vs Italy, 2005. A passage of play which was just going through the motions before Shane side stepped 3 Italians in 2 steps to get behind the defence before Cockbain cut back on an angle for a run in and Swan Dive.
5) Hal Luscome try vs France, 2006. Luscombe blind side break was supported by Williams who skinned the full back but was caught by the shirt tails by the French wing, remaining on his feet an over the head pass to Luscombe ensured the try.
6) Vs Fiji, RWC 2007. Received the ball on his own 10mt line, skinned the wing stepped the Full Back withou anyone looking like getting a hand him and scored under the posts.
7) Vs Scotland, 2008. Collected the ball on the drift on opponents 10mt line, beat first line of defence and took on Full Back in one on one, flirted with the touchline (!) before spectacluar dive and one handed placement of ball avoiding the corner flag.
8) Vs Italy, 2008. Against an admittedly tired Italian defence Williams was put through a hole in a 2 on 2 situation. Stepped the full back whilst half dummying the wing leaving a clear run to the line.
Could he have scored more trys for Wales? Probably, but in the same way as Wilkinson could have kicked more points for England or JPR could have missed more tackles. Will Shane Warne be remembered for dropping Pieterson in the last test of 2005 or Roberto Baggio for missing a penalty in a World Cup final? No, no, no!!
Human error is part of the charm of sport and an inevitability. As it is clear that you are a "Glass is half empty" kind of guy and you are looking to watch a sport where the majority of chances are taken you should spend your time watching Basketball, you'd be a lot happier.

[JOhn]

Could John point to some actual examples of when Shane has failed to "finished off try-scoring movements"

[Mervyn]

You say that you have watched rugby for 50years, judging by your original article and your childish responses to some of the comments one would believe that you are being economical with the truth.

Should you be able to prove that you have indeed been watching rugby for 50 years perhaps a suggestion that you actually look at the game directly rather than through the bottom of whichever alcholic beverage you indulge in. To the unbiased your comments on Shane Williams seem either based on some petty jealousy, or reporting comments that were fashionable about him a few seasons ago. I note that most if not all of those detractors have kept very quiet over the past couple of years.

His record is excellent and it is not unreasonable to suspect that if he had achieved that success whilst wearing a rose emblazoned white shirt his praises would be trumpeted throughout the land.