Was Stephen Jones right about Jonny Wilkinson?

In the first of his brilliant weekly e-mails, The Rolling Maul, Stephen Jones predicted that King Jonny was ready to be overthrown.

"The greatness is declining," Jones argued. "If England could only find momentum and direction, then they may well conclude that different hands on the wheel are sorely needed. Well, are we choosing icons, or players?"

Stuart Barnes agreed with his colleague, saying Wilkinson is the problem not the solution and must be dropped.

Then what happens? Wilkinson plays a big part in England's two tries against Italy, passes the 1,000-points mark in international rugby and his replacement, the much-vaunted Danny Cipriani, fumbles his way through a jittery 13-minute cameo.   

So was Jones, The Sunday Times Rugby Correspondent of more than 20 years, too quick to write off England's World Cup winner? Or will he be proved right in the longer term? Get in your opinions now, and Jones himself will respond to the best of them in his next e-mail on Thursday, which you can sign up for here.

Each week The Rolling Maul offers lively debate, Jones's series on "What you need to know about rugby", seven days' news in one minute flat and the hero of the week.

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Comments

[Rachel Keohane]

I think that Stephen Jones was too quick to write off Jonny. Even though Dani played a great game Jonny has put in so much to the England team and all he gets in return is to be dropped to the bench. It is wrong we should praise Jonny for all he has done for England and not to treat him like dirt like Stephen Jones has done. Yes like that other guy has said there are 22 players but Jonny is great and has not earnt to be dropped like that. Hope you are back in your shirt (10) next game.

[Alice]

I'd love England to win over Ireland this w-e with Cipriani in full match.

Lots of people seem to forget that a team is not 1 but 22 players. It just too easy to crown or blame a player for a team's good or bad performence. A team cannot rely on a player (or on a player's feet) to win a match.

England has a brilliant defense, a wonderful scrum. But when it comes to scoring, it seems that all players are relying on Wilkinson's drops and penalties. So the absence of Wilkinson on the pitch at kick off is hopefully going to push each of the 15 to take his responsibilities in the game.

Dropping Wilkinson is not a choice against him but only a choice for England.

[Ben]

No one can possibly justify picking wilkinson on form. This must leave his experience and leadership qualities. Erm, what? Has anyone been watching the six nations. Cipriani is the pick for the future, but Hodgson has played the season of his life and is arguably the more secure pick.

Of course, Wilkinson is not the only selection insanity going on. How can you possible justify having FOUR newcastle midfielders when they are performing so poorly. A selectiopn travesty, and one Jake White will sot out soon enough.

[Andrew]

Those people, myself included, who have witnessed and admired Wilkinson's heroics over the years are right to applaud him. His service for England has been exemplary. Unfortunately, we have been witnessing the demise of a player for some time now and the occasional flashes of brilliance just paper over the cracks. There is no room for sentiment here. Jonny is no longer good enough and that is, I'm afraid, the bottom line.

[tim wookey]

Chaps, messrs Barnes and Jones it's a disgrace to fill the pages of quality newspapers with this tripe about Jonny. Lets be honest the journalistic demands of reports and anaylsis of the game are perhaps responsible for the reports on Jonny's lack of form, as of late.

We can't deny that, a week away from the next Six Nations game and a commitment to write about a game that hasn't happened yet is frustrating for columnists. You can focus on Andy Gomarsal's "eagerness to get back into the squad" or do a comment on "how it feels for Tom croft to be included in his first ever international", but things start to thin out. So what do you do- hit them with a "is the world's best fly half not that good anymore."Trophy journalism. What a triumph. I can almost imagine the run from your office to the editor's room to delight in the controversy you may have stirred up.

The truth is the press build them up and then knock them down. To talk of Jonny's running lines was outlandish poppycock. Isn't it the nine's duty to provide quick flat service on the gainline to allow the 10 the chance to straighten his backs?Isn't that what happened on the weekend?Do we as readers get a full contrite apology from the people who get paid to write this nonsense. It all comes from the same people who said you might as well engrave NZ on the Webb Ellis cup three months prior to the final.

Tim Wookey

[Jack Beeby]

Stephen Jones churns out articles like nobodys business, so its no surprise hes scrabbleing around for a new take on a dog-eared old story... The piece on Matthew Tait recently was more boring pap, harping on about size all the time. Blah blah blah! Look at shane williams, these quicksilver players bring so much to the game, instead of bumbling giants like vanikolo!

[Louise]

I am absolutely sick of the criticism thrown at our best ever rugby player, and probably the worlds best too! Jonny would be the first to admit when he thinks hes not up to the job. Barnes, Jones and also Guscott obviously havent got anything better to do than slag off one of the greats of sport!

[C]

Wilkinson IS rugby.

[Kirsteen Wright]

There is no way Wilkinson is anywhere near ready to be written off yet. Yes he is human, he will make the odd mistake which his critics lovingly jump upon. However he makes far fewer than anyone else in his position and no other player can strike fear into the opposing team the way he can. What is it about the English that they're always talking about dumping Wilkinson, while their opponents are quietly praying that they do.

[Kv]

I don't think the All Blacks should be seen as a yardstick for the winning mentality Andy.

[Stuart]

It is a very sad fact that the English media stands alone as being so shamefully biased against their own teams. Perhaps its because so few of the journalists are actually English? Perhaps its the idiosyncratic English self-deprecation and modesty or just a massively over-developed 'tall poppy' syndrome. Either way, its just astonishing for me to see how the media tries its best to destroy all that's good in their sport. Jonny Wilkinson is a bona fide hero - everywhere else in the World. Jonny Wilkinson has raised his team from being good to being World Cup winners. Jonny Wilkinson has put his body on the line, suffered horrendous injuries but still come back to be the best fly half in England. Good fly halfs with some skill at running will come and go - like Stuart Barnes - but class like Jonny Wilkinson will endure. Everywhere else but in England where they will be degraded and pulled down by 'B' grade ex-players and 'C' grade neverwozzers. Shame on all of you. Jonny should play until he decides he doesn't want to anymore. Till then, shut up and embrace his genius - like they do everywhere else.

[Holly]

I would love to see all the negative remarking people do what Jonny does in one game, you'd be bent over holding your heart in your hand. What he does is not always perfection, but I think the question you all need to ask yourself is any player perfect. No, icon or not, he is a fantastic player overall.

[KM Sung]

I haven't seen such simplistic hero-worshipping since the last time Beckham's England place was debated in the media (ha!). A senior player at out-half who can't provide his backline with any leadership and who can't do anything to relieve the pressure on his pack when they're being hammered? If that's world-class, then Iain Balshaw's the best fullback in England.

[Andy]

A thread here is that most people think nobody would be more upset with his poor performance than Wilkinson himself.
Quite frankly, I'd have to question his grasp on reality after claiming he was happy to beat Italy and that "we were fantastic".
Most All Blacks will tell you they are only relieved not to have lost after those sorts of games, not happy to have won. A slight difference in attitude and expectation maybe, but if you want to win match after match then the fear of losing can drive you further than the hope of winning.
But on to his second point - can anybody (even English fans) honestly look at that match and find anybody that was 'fantastic'? More like you're living in a fantasy world, sunshine.

[Rob]

The thing is, that Jonny was never as good as he has been made out to be. He never was a complete fly half, more a modern version of Rob Andrew.

Now that English fans have seen Cipriani play (for Wasps, rather than last weekend's 'cameo') they have seen what a fly half can do.

I would rate most of England's world cup winning pack plus Jason Robinson ahead of Wilkinson.

[Dee]

What's the matter with Stephen Jones and Stuart Barnes? Are they jealous of Jonny or something ?!

[Deon]

As in all rugby loving nations ones hero can turn into a villian over the course of two Saturdays. Francois Steyn became the hero in last years Tri-Nations when he slotted 2 late drop goals to save the Boks from defeat against the Wallabies. One week later the public was calling for his head as he had fumbled a pass against NZ that lead to a try, in a game which the AB's eventualy won. From hero to zero..... A few months later he was part of a World Cup winning team. My point is that JW is not going to be around forever, and the fact is that a replacement should be found and blooded early on, to make the transition as smooth as possible. And lets not fool ourselves, if JW cant make two tries againts italy he should not be in the team. England should have put them away

[D]

Stephen Jones & Stuart Barnes seem to have been on a mission to prematurely destroy the career of Jonny Wilkinson. With no disrespect to Cipriani, let's hope that his faultering performance ( which could have cost England their win against Italy ) will shut them both up for a while ! Somehow I doubt that it will. It is clear that If Jonny so much as puts a foot wrong he is condemned and written off as not the player that he was, unworthy of his place in the team, etc. but if any of his pretenders do the same it is always a completely different matter. It is time these 2 journalists stopped being paid to pursue their prejudices and personal agendas and got on with the job of impartial analysis.

[Chris Hartnoll]

When was the last time JW was ever charged down?

As far as I can remember, he's only been criticized by the Times when he has tried to create something.

Chris

[Kv]

I agree with the positive posts on here. JW is an icon (and i'm a scot). Why do these armchair critics obsess with negatives and try to track and predict the demise of great athletes, only for the opportunity to say 'I told you so'? JW has given his life to the game and was responsible for the defining moment in english rugby history. Yes, his time will come. When it does, let his coach be the judge and remind yourself that nobody hurts more at a poor performance in the shirt than the man himself.

[Barry Bushell]

Cipriani will eventually shine through, however, Jones' sensationalist views on Wilkinson confirmed my long term fears...............that Jones is not worth reading. I have been a long time reader of The Times, however, Jones has eventually persuaded me to purchase another paper. Maybe he should get a job with The Sun?

[MUM and ALI]

Stuart Barnes drives us mad with his Wilko bashing. JW is an icon and has pulled back from the most awful injuries.

I agree with SADFAN -in those lean years since 2003 the only thing to look forward to was JW's return. I am so glad my rugby mad son has witnessed the JW years and we won't see his like again for many many years.

The welsh commentator said it best when describing JW's bad day compared with his peformance against Italy and THAT PASS

"Form is temporary, Class is permanent"

[Total Flanker]

I'm no fan of Mr Jones but it's far too easy just to say that he was wrong on this issue.

First and foremost I am a huge admirer of Jonny Wilkinson and have to say that he had fine 1st half against Italy - his creation of the first try, in particular, was top draw.

However, if we are dealing with facts you have to admit that Wilkinson's form for Newcastle this season has been indifferent, compared to Cipriani who has for the most part been sensational for Wasps. Equally you have to admit that Wilkinson was in general very poor against Wales and made some poor decisions in the second half against Italy, aimlessly kicking away what little possession England won.

The problem is that criticism of Wilkinson appears to be regarded as some kind of heresy - an attitude which is incredibly unhealthy if England are to move on.

In the end I think Wilkinson probably did enough against Italy to justify his place in the team but who is to say how Cipriani would have fared in that first half? On the front foot, with his array of attacking skills, he may well have torn Italy apart.

You certainly can't make a judgement based on the last 13 minutes (throwing him on when England were right up against it at that point was just plain silly from Ashton).

It has to be good news that Wilkinson's position is now under pressure and the debate as to who should play 10 for England has to be healthy. Either Jonny will rise to the challenge and see off the pretender or we'll see an exciting new talent directing the English game. And don't forget Messrs Geraghty, Lamb and even Hodgson are also busy forming an orderly queue to stake their respective claims for the position.

[Peter]

In his columm on 10th Feb Stephen Jones refers to the view that Wales won because England played badly as "Saxon tripe". This seems to be at odds with his reporting the previous week that England played well for an hour then played badly. Anyway who are these Saxons? Does he mean English people? Whoever they are they shouldn't speak "tripe" - thats his job and he is very good at it.

[Neil Turner]

Stuart Barnes was a fine running fly half. Rob Andrew was a fine kicking fly half. The latter was picked frequently, the former not.
The similarity between Andrew and JW versus Barnes and the up and comings is obvious. Sadly, I believe Barnes allows resentment and subjectivity to cloud his judgment which, in most other aspects of the game, is usually sound.

[Anna Charlton]

What about Stuart Barnes - he hasn't stopped bleating about dropping Jonny in the press or on Sky - give it a rest and find something else to write about. There are 30 men on a pitch surely it can't be that difficult. The same goes for Sky as well - i've lost count of the times the Jonny Danny argument has been had.

[SADFAN]

"The greatness is declining...". "...are we choosing icons, or players?" Interesting comments, and as a person living in what we still hope is a free society I welcome them. However, the last week has saddened me for the amount of criticism directed at someone who has served his country with distinction. A couple of below-par performances (and I would imagine Wilkinson would be the most critical analyst of his performance against Wales), culminating in what some have called the worst pass of his Test career (although I recall the pass intercepted by Joe Roff in the second Lions test in 2001, and look what happened two years later), and that is that in the harsh glare that shines from the eyes of the media.

Yes, the performance was poor, but as shown in both second second halves that England have played so far in the Six Nations, the backs are only as good as the foundations that the forwards provide, rugby being after all a team game of 15 men per side. Cippriani, who is an undoubted future world class talent, demonstrated the tests international rugby puts you under, and this has been where Wilkinson has excelled in his Test career, and where I believe he will continue to excel. I can't wait for Cippriani to shine, but perhaps that can come initially as full-back perhaps.

I reflect on the lean years since that drop goal in 2003, and the fact that one thing consoled me when England were not performing. Wilkinson was not in the side. His return brought back one of the best tactical brains in rugby, not to mention guaranteed points and solid hits in defence. We do not necessarily get free flowing fan-pleasing rugby with him at 10, but we have got a World Cup to show for his efforts, albeit backed up by a quality group of forwards. Perhaps the greatness is declining, but that merely makes him world class. And as for choosing icons, who knows how much his presence lifts his teammates, and concerns the opposition. Icons have a definite power.

Still, I've never played international rugby, and have only gone to watch one international at Twickenham, so what would I know. I'm just a sad fan, but a fan nevertheless.

Good summary by Alex.
Jones is simply another one to jump on the band wagon after the Wales game. Barnes on the other hand simply says what he thinks people want to hear and likes to be seen to be different no matter what happens in front of him.

JW was superb on Saturday and had it not been for his faultless 1st half performance we would have been beaten. The so called experts ignored the England pack's alarming deterioration as they fatigued in the 2nd half and it's no coincidence it occured again on Saturday, Mr Jones & Mr Barnes could do well to note that without the ball even the greatest of players (of which Wilkinson is one) cannot perform. He's not far off but JW iss not a miracle worker, he cannot be blamed for runners spilling the ball, turn overs caused by counter rucking, slow ball, poor and slow service from 9 etc. One bad pass and he seems to have spent all week pulling the knives out of his back. There are no easy games any more at international level, look at the World Cup, ask NZ, Ireland, France, Australia even S.A were almost knocked out by Fiji. Rugby is about winning, getting the job done no matter what. England were guilty of just not managing vs Wales, but in a career of 67 internationals and dragging England through countless close games (2 entire World Cups nearly) Mr Wilkinson deserves to be treated like the legend of the game that he is. Why he is stil able to take the field make the most of watching JW. We won't see his like again for a long long time, JW, Martin Johnson, Richard Hill, Dallaglio.... we have been very lucky and blessed to have seen these people operate.

It seems certain people have very short memories and from speaking to proper 'rugby people' these bitter old men do not reflect the opinion of the 'true rugby community'.

Mr Jones - categorically wrong.

[alex]

Of course he was.
I was thinking about posting other views of Jonny's performance to rub it in his face but I deemed it unecessary. He already seems indenial, calling Wilkinsons backwards flick pass 'good', whilst Sackey's supporting run, which is second nature to any back, 'brilliant'.
So by your reasoning Mr. Jones, Carlos Spencers skills are 'bad' I am guessing? Is this correct?

Jonny was superb. He made coutnless tackles where he pushed the Italians behind the gain line, kicked a number of difficult goals from either side of the pitch, his superb kick and chase, his passing, his generally direction of the backs.

Cipriani, for all his talents, wouldnt have managed that against Italy and you know it. You wouldn't of been stupid enough to thrust Cipriani in against Italy if you were Ashton either, your taking a confrontional easy-to-say-from-the-armchair view for sheer journalistic purposes. Or you know alot less on rugby than I believe.

If you really wanted Cipriani to start, you would of put him at 15. He is better defensively than Balshaw and his armoury of talents means he would five times the attacking weapon.

The whole England team were very poor for the second half, including your proposed No. 10 Cipriani who nearly cost the game.

He was wrong. Fact.