Should teachers be paid the same as lawyers and doctors?

Nine out of ten teachers don't think they have the same "professional standing" as lawyers and doctors, but more than three quarters think their pay should be comparable.

Seven out of ten of those questioned for the poll (by Scett, the Standing Committee for the Education and Training of Teachers) said they thought the status of teaching was diminishing, but some were dismissive of other professions, saying that what they did was more complex. As reported in the TES, one said: "Doctors and lawyers don't deal with 30 'clients' at once. Consequently the nature of (our) work is radically different and arguably far more complex."

It's an interesting one. A quick look at the comments on the TES website show the hackles raised on this topic. There are some who argue that the qualifications required for teaching are so much lower than those for law or medicine, there is no way the three should be seen as equal. Others say that teaching is so physically and mentally demanding, it deserves a lot more respect. And that's without mentioning the hours and those long holidays....

Personally I feel both sides have some truth to them. I have met - and been taught by - some fantastically dedicated teachers, but also come across those who clearly went into it because they didn't know what else to do, and had no vocation at all. But perhaps that's true of all professions?

One teacher (who surprisingly, wants to remain anonymous, as otherwise he fears lynching) tells me that there are far too many "mediocre teachers who are predominately 2:2/3rd class degree candidates from the University of 'You're having a laugh' with a degree in 'You must be joking'."

He adds that he is talking from experience, that his school contains senior staff with E grades at A level and 3rd class degrees from poor universities, and that schools should be "opened up" to other people.

The only problem with his argument is that it feeds nicely into the survey - that teachers then need to be seen as on a par with other professionals, and paid better!

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Comments

[Ian Garton]

The right salary for teachers, like that for people in any other profession, is the amount that attracts the right number of people of the right calibre. Not everyone needs to be the same and if we need, say, more maths teachers they should be paid more. Or if it harder to get teachers to teach in an inner city school, we should pay them more accordingly.

The difficulty in paying flexibly are the teaching unions who are amongst the most depressing ones in the country, wanting the many bad teachers to get a leg up from their better colleagues. Is it still true, I wonder, that if the worst 20% were sacked, educational standards would go up?

There is no moral right to a particular salary for any profession, nor is status conferred by the salary. it is conferred by how good you are. For example, I admire some builders and have contempt for some teachers.

[Isobel]

When I was little, my dad was a lawyer and my mum was a teacher. My dad earned a lot more than my mum, and whilst he came home from work full of excitement about the latest courtroom drama, and had cosy meetings with people in suits, my mum was shouted at by bratty seven-year-olds, and came home exhausted with hours of marking to do. It's hardly any surprise that my dad is, several years later, still a lawyer, whilst my long-suffering mum gave up teaching long ago.

A friend of mine, a year older than me, has just gone into teaching. Initially optimistic, he's now completely disheartened: he has lousy pay, receives death threats and homophobic abuse from the kids, and has no time for a social life. Dreading such a scenario, I've turned to the only available option - teaching abroad. A couple of my friends have done it and they get respect, high salary and an exciting life in a new country, unlike my poor friend who opted for teaching in the UK.

[Cathy]

Just a personal comment: I have a second from Oxford,a PhD and 25 years' teaching experience. For family and personal reasons I choose to work as a supply teacher in inner-city schools. I arrive at 8am and leave when I've finished work - around 4pm. In order to leave early I take 15 minutes' lunch break. Quite often I don't get a mid-morning break (so can't have a drink, go to the loo, etc). Regular colleagues usually leave around 5.30 and then have work to do at home. I appreciate not having the paperwork that they do and not having to deal with parents every day. I am a very good teacher and am able to step into the breach at a moment's notice, dealing with up to 30 strange (to me) 5-7 year-olds and someone else's lesson plans. For all that I'm paid the princely sum of £151 a day.

Now, I'm not complaining about the job I do - I love it and regard it as a privilege to work with often very deprived young children. Nor am I grumbling about the money, at least not for myself. My partner makes just about enough for me to work part-time at something I love. Other teachers are not so comfortably off.

What I do complain about is the lack of status and appreciation so often shown by those who think teachers have it so easy. Some of the comments here are downright rude. I think people like me deserve respect, not sneers.

[simon baker]

Re a previous comment by Stuart. We will always need teachers in some shape or form. Pupils can use computers, but they will still need teachers to answer questions, ensure they are focused on their work, and ultimately to set the curriculum for the computers to store. Yes, there are incompetent teachers, but unfortunately there are still a few incompetent lawyers and doctors too. This was recently illustrated for me when someone I knew died recently following emergency surgery for a burst ulcer which was not spotted by her GP or the hospital where she had an endoscopy (which was not as thorough as it should have been).

[Adam]

Having read the comments I sense the majority of the ‘comment writers’ are mature. I’m just about to start a PGCE and my educational background is mixed.

While at secondary school I was taught by several PGCE teachers and a few NQTs, did that impact on my GCSE grades, yes it did. Without going into detail I should have done a lot better than what I did.

I went to the school’s sixth form and again in my opinion I underperformed.

Why do I believe I underperformed – well considering that I went on to university and completed my degree within a year and finished top of my class with a comfortable first, I wonder why I never preformed to the same standard at school. My point being my GCSE stage learning was failed by a lack of quality teaching, arguably.

I’ve been lecturing for a while now, I’m only 21 and I’ve decided that I’d like a career in teaching. So come September I’m off to Uni on a PGCE.

I’m not going into teaching for the money – I’m hoping to have a positive impact on a few young people’s lives. I do expect to progress reasonably quickly and considering I live in the northeast of England a salary of £35,000 is more than comfortable.

With regards to the comments about holiday’s, I’m only involved in teaching a tiny bit and I get paid for 3 hours prep time a week, which is way shorter than what it takes. Furthermore, the last Wednesday in every month I’m kicked out of my classroom so the other tutors and lecturers in the college can meet and greet potential students; unpaid but that is what is expected of them.

In summary, again a northeast prospective, lawyers are money chasers, I know this from personal experience, they never seem to help people on a point of principle its mainly no-win-no-fee cases I see and hear about. Doctors, not a profession I know a great deal about, but once I’m teaching I would see the profession of a doctor superior to mine!

[JAMES]

I agree. The fact is that in many cases teachers ARE paid the same as lawyers.

I qualified as a lawyer 3 years ago and many of my contemporaries are teachers on comparable salaries. This is particularly so when you take into account the burden of sizeable law school debts. In fact, many junior 'high street' lawyers earn significantly less than their teacher counterparts and do not enjoy anything like the same benefits packages – 13 weeks holiday, short working days, final-salary pension, early retirement option, generous maternity and sick pay etc etc.

On top of all this is bullet-proof job security. At a time when lawyers, like everyone else in the private sector, are facing the very real threat of redundancies and indefinite pay freezes, teachers (and the rest of the public sector alike) are quietly pocketing the 2.5% pay deals they were so vocally objecting to 12 months ago. This is on top of their automatic rise up the pay scale and generous ‘management allowances’ of course!

[simon baker]

The premise of this article is slightly dubious, teacher pay is now well above average (a mean of £35,000 per year) and above a great deal of lawyers. Remember many lawyers doing legal aid do not earn that much and criminal barristers frequently start on minimum wage (teachers start on £20,000). I grant that commercial barristers and city solicitors earn significantly more, although they are highly qualified. Doctors also have to undertake significant training and earn good wages accordingly, however with the number of holidays my doctor takes I really don't see how they always work that much harder than teachers!
Teachers are generally qualified and committed people, they have to have at least a degree and GCSEs in English and Maths which puts them automatically in around the top 40% of the country. It is also a myth to say that they are not respected, according to a 2002 Today programme poll they were in the top 10 most respected professions, much higher than lawyers. But let us have a society in which we respect both lawyers, doctors and teachers, they are all vital for the successful functioning of a civilised society!

[Jane]

I am a lawyer, in private practice and I earn a lot less than an old school pal who is a teacher. It is mostly the big City lawyers who earn the 6 figure salaries.

[Andy]

Mr James Steel
I would use your 'inside voice' to describe Nurses as non-graduates, they don't take kindly to that description.

[Valorie]

Mr D, teachers do not have five hour teaching days, I work in school from 8am-5pm as do all the teachers at our school, this does not include anytime for planning lessons, making worksheets or marking any homework. Most nights I'm still doing school work until 8pm.
Now all those holidays we get, are we sunning ourselves by far off shores? No we are being sent around the country on courses and holding classes and meet and greets for new students wishing to discover what our schools have to offer and whether or not it is an environment they want to be learning in.
I teach at a Grammar school, I don't teach English you should be glad to know! All of our teachers are required to have a 1st or 2nd class degree a masters and a PhD, which makes us more qualified than the majority of doctors who chose not to go onto to PhD level.
My cousin is a GP, she works 9-2 everyday, all weekends off, 10 weeks of holiday. I noticed no one mentions this but go all out on the fact that teachers have longer holidays than most!
The PGCE needs to be improved though, theres too much health and safety with not enough hands on work.

[Andrew Horsfield]

I got a 2:1 from Cambridge and very good A Levels before that, so nothing to be ashamed of, and eventually went into teaching after 7 dull years in business. I make up my income by being a professional translator. I work damned hard, but I love being a teacher, and don't envy my better-paid fellow graduates one bit. I think the job pays well - in human terms!

[huw gareth]

After leaving Cambridge university with a 2.1, I went on to highly paid job in a highly paid industry.

My brother went to one of the worst universities in Britain and got a pass degree in English after 5 years. Guess what he did? He became a teacher.

If there really is a problem in education, then we could try to solve it by paying teachers more. But the current lot shouldn't receive higher pay as a windfall for their failure; the higher pay should be reserved only for future hires into the industry rather than given to the 3rd class grads of ex-Polys who currently dominate the teaching "profession".

Frankly, though, if there are 500,000 teachers in the UK, then it can't be a high status profession. There are too many of them. To pay them even 5,000 pounds a year more would cost the taxpayer 25bn, or 1.4% of GDP.

[Beverley]

If teachers are paid more, people graduating with top marks from first class universities might be attracted to teaching for a profession. Given the important role in society that teachers have, I believe this would be highly desirable.

[Mr D]

If teachers want to be paid the same as Doctors or lawyers they should train to become Doctors or lawyers. As it is, they are extremely well paid considering they only work part-time. With an average of a five hour day and four months holiday a year, I think they should feel extremely grateful for what they already receive.

[John Bull]

If you want monkeys to do the job pay them peanuts. It's easy to see why the teachers are not the work force they once were. Anyone with any spark of indiviudality about them would take one look at what teachers do and say 'no thanks' pretty sharpish.

In 1988 the government decided it was time to tell the teachers what they should be teaching. Thus was the National Curriculum born. The it was the turn of the examinations themselves. First, O Level was scrapped in favour of the now meaningless GCSE examinations which everyone passes, usually at the top two grades.

having told the teachers what they must teach, and destroyed the standard of the basis 16 examiantions, the government then told the teachers how to teach their subjects. In fact they have done this increasingly presriptively, so that the idea of a professional using his intelligence, flair, adaptability and creativity has disappeared.

Thirty years ago an American sociologist named White described teachers as 'low level bureaucratic functionaries'. I remember at the time the furore created by his remarks in educational world. Today's teachers are being made to be just that - drones doing the bidding of the government - and they are paid and treated accordingly.

[AV]

I am a doctor myself. I think my job is as important as a teacher's. The teachers who are raising up my children have so much responsability as I have towards my patients. We need to have good teachers, so if we feel they are not well prepared, the solution might be to ask for better qualifications for those who would like to teach our children, as their task is such an important one, being responsible for the behaviour, enthusiasm and knowledge of our kids.

[Kev]

It is low low pay and lack of respect that teachers receive that discourage high flyers from teaching, and keep the brightest of this country out of teaching, therefore hinder the future generations and ultimately this country.

[John W Smith]

Teaching future generations of citizens is doubtless the most important of tasks.

There are, sadly, doubts as to quality of our teachers. These doubts arise for many reasons inter alia pay, esteem, authority and many others.

The way for teachers to resolve these issues is to form themselves into a proper professional body akin to the GMC or the Institution of Civil Engineers. These bodies emphasize training, education and experience prior to and after membership and behavioural ethics always. Teachers have failed to address this question in any effective manner. If they do not treat themselves seriously it can scarcely be surprising that neither do others. Forming a professional body with the right standards for education, training and experience and enforcing ethics would, in time, repair the problems that beset both teachers and our education system. Failure to do this will perpetuate the dilemma.

[Canada]

In respect of James Steel's comment, I agree that teachers should get more than police officers and nurses. Lawyers aren't paid, generally, by the government, so their pay is less comparable.

[Canada]

Teachers' starting salaries are not bad in relation to the qualifications required to start teaching. Some teachers become exceptional, some are competent and some, unfortunately are disinterested, barely qualified and even incompetent. Therefore, teachers who show consistently good methods and results as well as ongoing background training should be awarded with better salaries. This is generally the case in other professions. If one attempted to become a doctor with 2 Es at A Level, they wouldn't be able to get into medical school. The same applies to law and dental school. If they did get in but subsequently failed their countless exams and assessments, they would fail. Even after training, if they didn't continue to aquire adequate training and knowledge, they would be unable to practise safely and would be struck off.

As a teacher I'm comfortable in my job. Yes, it can be stressful. Yes I have 30 pupils regularly. But a GP or dentist can have 1000 patients on record. And in A&E there can be 50 people waiting to see the doc. And surgeons train for several years after finishing uni before they become specialists. Thus, their pay increases accordingly.

My salary presently goes up every year regardless. Doesn't matter if all my kids fail, if I phone in sick for a month or if I put no planning into my lessons whatsoever. Plus I get 13 weeks off a year! I never work weekends and only occasional evenings. So I have a good life, and I enjoy it. If I knew my pay would go up more if I stretched myself and improved my standard of teaching subject to assessmen/appraisal, I might do so. The fact is I dont have to. I've never had to.

I respect the amount of work, training, dedication and intelligence it takes to become a dentist or doctor, and its only common sense that they get paid much more than I do.

[James Steel]

Amazing how many anti-teacher sentiments are being written here. We've had all the old (and untrue) cliches - "cant do, teach" and "teachers only work 9 till 3 and have 20 weeks off every year". I'm a teacher and I have two degrees including a PhD in Astrophysics from a top UK university. I chose to teach because I wanted to pass something on to the next generation, not for the money - in fact, I took a considerable pay cut from my previous career. However, it is clear that we are underpaid compared to other graduates. In fact, our pay is lower than non-graduates such as nurses and police officers, as much respect as I have for those professions. The low pay is a reflection of societies lack of respect for the job we do. Lawyers by contrast are parasites. I do not believe they contribute anything useful to society and yet they earn 10 times our salary. Unfair, but thats the way it is. I always remember Ronald Reagan talking about the choice of a teacher to be the first civilian astronaut aboard the Space Shuttle (Christa McAuliffe, who was sadly killed in the Challenger disaster). He said "We wanted to pick one of our nations best - a teacher". Can you imagine a British politician talking in such a way about teachers? Therein lies the problem.

[Tony]

Don't forget that teachers only work half the hours of everybody else.

[Alex]

It's a simple case of supply and demand. Lots of people can and want to teach. Few can be doctors or lawyers.
Therefore teachers demand a lower salary.

[Kieran]

Kiarie, evidence please to back up this 'fact' of yours?

What a ridiculous post. To suggest the professions of Law and Medicine are amongst the least intellectually demanding is ludicrous. As a medical student, I can assure you that it takes at least five years, riddled with exams, of rigorous academic work within university and then a subsequent two years before I will be fully qualified.

Granted there are some excellent teachers but on the whole it does not compare.

[Kiarie]

PhD wrote .."intellectually teachers are third rate"

The teaching profession demands creativity and thinking out of the box.. lawyers and doctors are not known to have these qualities.

As a matter of fact Law and Medicine are some of the least intellectually demanding professions there are

[ed robinson]

Educational reforms come and go. I've assessed lots of them and in so doing came to the ultimate realization that they are a waste of time - there is no substitute for a good teacher. That means paying for them. Peanuts gets monkeys and i should know - I'm a one of them - well ex. Still - here's to the next educational overhaul.

[rhh1]

PHD wrote "Teaching is not a profession. There is no corpus of knowledge to learn." PHD is wrong. There is a body of knowledge upon how to teach the disciplines effectively. One research review in mathematics educaton is here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Recent-Research-Mathematics-Education-Reviews/dp/0113500491

The better universities cover this material in professional teacher education courses.

The trouble is, unlike the situation with other professionals, there is a low chance that the typical teacher has read this literature, let alone brings it to life in the classroom. Compare tachers with dentists, civil engineers, barristers, GPs, accountants and so on. The level of professonal sloppiness teachers find acceptable, and our children have to put up with, would not be tolerated in the professions.

[Tom]

I'm a final year student with very good A levels, studying at a top univesity. I'd love to go into teaching, but its just such a bad deal.

When I, and many like me have c£25k student debts and we can go and work for somebody for c£25-30k immediately after finishing university it is very very difficult to justify instead take a teaching job starting at just £17k, especially since you have to spend a year getting another qualification and probably getting into more debt.

I admire people who do it, but for many like me the salary and debt we're in means it is just not an option. I would agree that higher salaries for teachers would improve the intake dramatically.

[David]

I know I've just commented, but I re-read the comments and had missed this one first time round: "For instance, you do realise the BMA penalises doctors for inappropriate relations with patients, like sex, don't you ?".
This makes me really angry. To start with their's the GTC (general teaching council) who can remove your qualifications, suspend them etc. They will in the case of inappropriate contact with pupils. Also any inappropriate contact with pupils is followed through by the police. All those going to teach in a school have been checked against "list 99" and have an enhanced criminal records bureau disclosure - indicating ANY past offenses (not just child related).

[David]

There are some really, really nasty comments about Teachers on here, which unfortunately doesn't surprise me. Teaching is a profession, but we're suffering from the days of poor recruitment and poor teaching practice.
We should not be paid the same as Doctors and Lawyers - no way. However our pay is slightly lower than it should be, when compared to our qualifications and experience.
Also; your university qualification being a 1st or 2:1 does not make you a better teacher. A good teacher is someone who can deliver most material in an interesting manner, keep pupils engaged and deal with some behavioural issues through their teaching. There are obviously exceptions to this; those with degrees that are very poor from "less respected" universities may be unable to teach A level effectively, but it is up to the school to call on that one.
We are not deluded. We are not stupid. Unfortunately there are a hardcore in our profession who give us a bad name; those overly involved in politicising teaching, those who have abused their position of trust and SOME union leaderships who make unrealistic demands on pay etc.
Our holidays are not what you think either. We'll often spend between 1/3 and 1/2 of our holidays marking and planning. I was marking mock exams on boxing day and coursework on Easter Sunday this year. That was on top of averaging a 55-60 hour week (sometimes heading towards 70 hours a week) on £20,133 a year. I do it because I love it and the pay is just enough, but the majority of us work really hard for our pay cheques

[Paulie]

I'm a Head of Department. Of course we shouldn't be paid the same. In my school, we have lots of unqualified teachers, teachers without a degree and teachers who cannot read or write properly - yet they all know their employment rights and are impossible to get shot of.

Teaching isn't a profession an shouldn't be paid as such.

[PhD]

Teaching is not a profession.

There is no corpus of knowledge to learn.

Intellectually, teachers are third-rate.

[miko]

I'll support a pay rise for them when THEY learn to teach where to place an apostrophe

[rosie]

doctors and lawyers are in it for the money, i have met many lazy sols and docs and they seem to have cheated their way in this highly paid jobs, i have met many teachers and some are better than others but at least they do not lie about long hours, by the way docs do not cure, it is in the hand of God,

[John]

If teachers are underpaid, what about other low paid professionals. I work as a senior manager in the voluntary sector, with significant responsibilities, long hours, etc., yet earn similar to a main grade teacher. I work a 9-5 & also end up working evenings, weekends. I get 25 days holiday a year & most of those days will be interrupted by phone calls.

Many social workers (incidentally, often picking up the pieces from failures of education & parenting, yet paid less than teachers) are suffering nervous breakdowns as a result of the trauma of the job...which despite media myths, actually involves protecting children in situations most people would not even dream existed. How about upping their pay?

I know a LOT of teachers, of varying levels of skill, & trust me they do NOT work the hours that many others in comparable professions have to, nor do they experience anything like the stress levels. Methinks a sharp dose of reality is needed here.

[DHL]

I taught for nineteen years with a ten year gap to raise three children beyond infant school and my husband was a GP for twenty-six years. His training took eight years and in his hospital posts before he was a GP he was paid a pittance.
Concerning numbers, my husband had a list of more than 4,000 before he was allowed to take a partner.
Although I support better pay and conditions for teachers, there is no comparison with the skills, knowledge,commitment and time demanded by the profession of a doctor.

[Bob]

The fact they think what they do is as difficult as law or medicine shows how self-important and deluded these people are.

Most of them are people who want to be listened to and respected but never would be without a captive audience of kids who don't know any better.

If teachers salaries are raised it should be to attract a few competent people into the profession.

[Steve]

A rise in teachers' salaries might improve the quality of education in some schools, but what is also needed is for the teaching unions to have a more flexible attitude towards pay combined with a more rigorous approach to teaching standards. I believe in the role of unions to protect workers being exploited by management, however teaching unions don't help themselves, the teaching profession or the most important people in education - the pupils - by obstructing efforts to reward candidates where there is a shortage of suitably qualified teachers and by making it very difficult for incompetent teachers to be sacked.

Teaching unions have to accept that the profession cannot be 100% egalitarian; the most sought-after graduates must be paid a premium and those teachers who just can't hack it in the classroom must be removed. Teachers who are good at their job (and I don’t believe this is a small minority) and who can inspire kids to learn are of immense value to society, but there has to be a way for the dead wood to be taken out of the system. Not only are the latter effectively stealing money from taxpayers - many of whom are paid far less than teachers - they're harming the future career choices of the children they are entrusted to teach, and that's unforgivable.

I'm sure what would also help teachers and pupils alike is the abolition of the foolish and misguided practice of allowing violent and disruptive kids to remain in class, no matter how appalling their behaviour is. I'm afraid the rights of persistently unruly pupils must come a distant second to those of the children who behave and who want to learn.

[j griffiths]

Yes, of course they should. Teachers, lawyers and doctors should all have their salaries cut to the level of ordinary mortals. None of them are the Gods they think they are. Especially not doctors.

[John]

Dear jasper 09:18 PM

Students studying law or medicine (or any other subject in the UK) do not gain entry to a university unless they have 'A' levels or a recognised equivalent - these are taught by school/college teachers.
Even Stephen Hawking had to be taught maths and physics before attending university.

University students are 'taught' by lecturers who carry out both 'teaching' duties and research work. If you have been to university I am sure you will understand this.

[rw]

If you do not earn enough find a better paid job.
Thats what happens in the private sector!

[jasper]

Dear John 06:02 pm,

I think you will find Doctors learn to be Doctors at Medical school. These schools are not staffed by teachers, there are staffed by Doctors at various levels of qualification. And, here is the novel bit, these Doctors not only teach, they also DO, at the same time even !
Similarly, I think you will also find solicitors are trained under the guidance of qualified solicitors.

John, I really hope you are not a teacher. Although I am not a teacher, a Doctor or a solicitor myself, I still know these things.

[Sue]

I am sure there are some good teachers around, but in general the ones I have come across during the course of my children's educational careers have been superior and condescending and talk to parents as if they were 10 year olds.
As somebody who has also been to university this attitude rankles - maybe teachers would get more respect if they actually showed more respect to other people instead of looking down on the parents/students they meet because they are the "professionals".

[Marty]

No - Lawyers and Doctors should be paid the same as Teachers

[jasper]

Teachers, you wouldn't like to be treated like doctors.
For instance, you do realise the BMA penalises doctors for inappropriate relations with patients, like sex, don't you ?

[richard in Los Angels]

What a joke! Teachers are completely overpaid. They have way too much time off, their union is way too strong and they have practically no accountability. Try firing a teacher if you can!
As for school teachers teaching the doctors and lawyers..well they may have taught them multiplication tables and basic grammar, but very little else...certainly not the medical and legal knowledge they would need to pass their professional exams.

[C Mather]

As the father of a teacher, a very good one,I have heard, I can say that she is a teacher because her "A" levels were not good enough to be a doctor.
She does have long holidays and does not spend them all preparing for the next term. She can also control unruly teenagers in her secondary school, but then she knows all the tricks, that's why she failed her exams.
If you want to meet a teacher in summer go on a camping holiday in France where many are there for the duration of their holidays.

[Jeanne]

Having read the comments so far it is obvious that those who think being a primary teacher is a doddle has never set foot in a classroom. They also think that the hours are short and the holidays long, yes they are for the children but as the mother of a teacher who has given over 20 years dedicated service I can assure you all that she not only works a long day but also several hour each night. If she goes out in an evening to try to have a 'social' life then unlike her friends who go home afterwards to a cup of cocoa and some TV she has to start work. She also has to work part of saturday as well! As for the 'long' holidays she sleeps most of the first week and after 2 weeks off she is planning for the next term. This has all become too much so she is now looking for other work allbeit lower pay where she can finish at the end of the day or the week, and the time will be her own.

[John]

Who taught all the high earning lawyers and Doctors? Teachers!
Without good teachers we would not have good lawyers and Doctors.
I rest my case.

[Linda R]

I am an RN,and when I see a teacher save the life of a child or anyone, that is when they can make what a medical doctor makes!!! I work directly with doctors and I am their eyes and ears when they are not around. AND DO NOT MAKE WHAT TEACHERS MAKE IN THEIR 9 MONTHS OF WORK!! are you kidding me??? Those who can't do---- teach!

[c_mal]

I find it intresting about Doctors today. I have been treated by on of the highest rated hospitals. I find that modern technology has replaced the skills of most doctors. Lab Technicians run most tests and tell the Doctors what they found. High insurance costs in any industry is the result of poor practices and mistakes. Just like car insurance is high for people who has a lot of accidents.

[TampaBill]

Let's see, teachers are a part time vocation that only works 9 months a year. Extrapolate their starting salary here in Florida and you get $53,000 starting pay per year. Well maybe lawyers and doctors are paid too much and teachers lounging in their extended holidays believe they aren't getting their "fair share" but why did they become teachers in the first place? I'm an engineer and I knew what to expect when I picked my career so why didn't the teachers know what awaited them? It's because they chose one of the easiest college programs and now they want parity with those that took a more difficult path. Doctor; 10 years of college and internship, lawyer: 4 years of undergraduate and 3 years of graduate law school in most cases before sitting for the bar exam which if you fail it was all for nothing. Teachers on the other hand pick their programs because, in comparison, they are relatively easy and and they are rewarded with copious holiday time to spend with their own families. Further, the quality of the education product today is very poor at best. Teachers are more concerned with advancing their own agendas and political platforms than teaching the fundamentals that these young minds will need to survive in a world full of challenges. Actually, all things considered, teachers may be overpaid....

[Dave skands]

Private sector International A level teachers are very well paid. 12 hours contact, 15 students, no marking and 12 weeks holiday. 3 years experience and a PhD and your basic is 50K. Parents and the school are demanding but this is not a big deal. As long as you can demonstrate knowledge of your subject, communicate well and have some presence there is nothing to get remotely worried about.

[Dave skands]

Private sector International A level teachers are very well paid. 12 hours contact, 15 students, no marking and 12 weeks holiday. 3 years experience and a PhD and your basic is 50K. Parents and the school are demanding but this is not a big deal. As long as you can demonstrate knowledge of your subject, communicate well and have some presence there is nothing to get remotely worried about.

[usmd]

Fascinating conversations to this US doctor. Would agree with those who say the unions really haven't helped. Performance doesn't seem to matter as much as years on the job. More money thrown at the problem doesn't help. Having a sister who teaches here in the states, I would also agree that it is often an underpaid profession given its importance. Would also agree with the lack of respect given to teachers. I don't think you can even give a student a disapproving look without repercussions. But that isn't limited to teachers. The respect given to doctors has disintegrated as well. Sure, in surveys we are usually listed as being one of the most, if not the most, admired profession. But in real life, face to face, with patients that isn't always happening. I have heard on plenty of occasions that I make too much money. I encourage them to go to medical school and the same money can be theirs. As for pay, touchy issue. I don't know of many professions that require as much training, devotion, continued testing, cost to obtain, fear of malpractice suits, the worry of making sure you are treating/diagnosing a patient correctly and the consequence to the patient if you are not etc. . For most teachers- 4 years of college. For most physicians- 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school followed by an average of 4-5 years of a very demanding internship/residency. There isn't much of a comparison. As for what that education means I deserve to get paid, I'll let you guys figure that one out. I've debated that many times. Sounds like our friends across the pond are facing the same issues we have here in the states. The fact that many here feel entitled to free health care makes it harder. I understand that the system is broken and I don't pretend to have a solution. If paying doctors less is the answer, good luck finding smart young students who want to subject themselves to the rigors of a medical education and career. It seems that almost anywhere in the civilized world you get what you pay for. Unless you have a union to demand better pay for you despite performance. And for some reason, it is not legal for doctors to unionize in most, if not all, areas of the U.S. Another great topic for discussion sometime!

[frege]

Only if you fire all of the current teachers and replace them with a new class of people worth that investment. You absolutely get what you pay for, but teachers' unions intend for you to pay the same teachers more money. That is d-u-m-b. We need to get rid of the unions before we think of paying teachers more.

[IRNDWOODS]

In the field of education, since when does higher pay cause better performance. In other fields, it's the other way around. Better performance as a lawyer or doctor usually translates to higher pay. But all the money we pour into education hasn't taught Johnny to read. Unions and a bottomless purse filled with tax money
makes for an unholy alliance. If teachers don't think they are getting enough of the public dollars than they can do something else if money is what they are after. I personally think teachers should be paid less thus attracting more dedicated personnel. I work at what I do because I love the work, the respect for my skills, and I think it's great that I can even make a living at it.

[Louise]

The remarkable venom in some of the posts about how worthless teachers in general are is saddening, but not surprising. Far more important than pay level to many teachers is the lack of respect afforded them not only for their career but for them as people. As secondary teacher I gain alot of job satisfaction from the students I am able to help (those who said it was a doddle to be a teacher just weren't doing it right). However I am also regularly distressed by the way some students (and often thier parents as well) treat teaching staff. The abuse that is meted out to teachers on a daily basis is symptomatic of a society that respects teachers less than parking inspectors. I joined the profession, despite my first class honours degree and master of arts because I had some wonderful teachers while I was at school. I wanted to be that help and inspiration for others, not to be abused by the same few petulent 15 year olds on a daily basis. (Doctors and lawyers can refuse to deal with violent and abusive clients, while violent and abusive students are sent back to class week after week)

I think the way wealth in our society is divided is unfair in general, not just as it applys to teachers. Some people manage to make huge fortunes with very little effort and retire at 40, while others work three jobs all their lives just to put food on the table. I don't think the system is going to change any time soon, but I just wish people would look at what I do and see it as valuable.

[arkansas]

I taught high school for 26 years. And I was good at it. Holidays? I was reading and grading papers and working on lesson plans and attending inservice so that I could become a better teacher. I also cannot count the thousands of dollars that I spent out of my meager salary during my career to provide additional supplies, books, and sometimes pay fees for students who did not have the ability to pay. Anyone who believes that teaching is an 8-4, 5 day a week job with excellent pay for the service provided AND great holidays should try teaching - not sitting in a classroom watching students - TEACHING. Yes, there are babysitters in the classroom today who draw that paycheck and watch the clock. But there are also dedicated professionals who believe, rightly, that they are shaping our future, and they work hard to do it well. No one wants to be a teacher today. No money, no respect - and unfortunately, today, too many peoply believe that what you have and how much you earn determines your worth. Teachers know better.

[Reuss]

In theory, teachers "should" be paid more.

Problem 1-
No one wants to pay the higher taxes required for the higher wages

Problem 2-
Old teachers that don't motivated students would be even less likely to retire, thus making it increasingly difficult for graduates to find employment.

Problem 3-
The wealth of a school district varies greatly and therefore teacher salaries are going to vary accordingly.

[Evette]

I believe that GOOD teachers - ones who can interest and enthuse children about the subject - should be paid an equal amount, as what they achieve is extraordinary, but those (such as my chemistry teacher), who are completely incompetant - so much so that a class of 16 year olds actively went and ASKED whether they could get another teacher, as they weren't being taught anything - shouldn't have managed to become teachers in the first place.

However, I think that the pay incentive has to be there from the start to get the best and brightest, who can easily interact with the children, into the classroom to begin with.

[Terrell]

If teachers were paid well, over 90%, if not 100%, of the current teachers would be out of a job.

The competent people would take their jobs - because teachers are the second and third rate level of intelligent and competent people in the world and could not stand up to competition with the best

Current teachers would lose out if pay was equalized.

[Logger]

Who benefits?

Doctors give and save life. They cure the sick.

Teachers provide life chances, inspiration, guidance, knowlege, and hope.

Lawyers Help no one ,except themselves.I have nothing to say about them. Except whenever you have to deal with them it is for the bad things in life. They always profit from someone elses misfortune. In Biology we call that a scavenger

I am a London teacher with 20 years experience under my expanding girth.

Come the revolution comrades; first we burn the lawyers!

[imogen lambert]

of course they shouldn't be payed as much - just looking at their hours and their holidays confirm that. It's a strange profession because there seems to only be a certain level you can progress to and ability doesn't seem to come into it - for instance there are some great teachers with great degrees in my school and there are some god awful ones - they are in the same position and presumably they are paid the same. You can't really succeed in law if you're bad at what you do, nor would you ever get into medical school if you were less than extremely academic. But in teaching it seems they'll let anyone into the profession.

[Tom]

If they want to get as paid as much as a doctor or lawyer, make each and every one of them go through an equally rigorous educational, examination, and ethical regimen before they are considered qualified to teach. Then expose them to malpractice lawsuits, abolish any union support, and require them to be on call for questions from students and parents 24/7. Oh, and then take a sizable chunk of their income to pay for all that education.

[Sandra]

Quite simply; those lawyers and teachers working for the government get paid approximately the same amount of money. Those in private schools/practice get paid according to what their clients pay their businesses.

People who get paid a lot of money are usually providing a service few can provide, which is exactly why they're paid highly. The good City lawyers are able to implement effective solutions that mediocre lawyers could never dream of. There are varying degrees of skill in every job, and the people reaching the highest levels will be paid more. What is so hard to understand?

I especially like Craig's comment "Lawyers make way too much for their made up lawsuits". That is utterly ridiculous and shows a high level of ignorance. Most lawyers never see the inside of a courtroom and merely work to prevent everyday business dealings, divorce settlements, child custody arguments etc. ever going to court.

As a City lawyer I regularly work 14hr days, sometimes weekends, and I get 20 days holiday a year. I would never complain about my position, because I love the work I do. I made my choices based on the work, not the money. The money simply isn't a factor when I'm here at 2am.

[john]

The whole issue is inane. To attract good teachers, they should be paid what the market allows, and no more. Differential pay should apply; schools must compete with engineering firms for competent math teachers, so in order to hire them they must be paid more than art teachers. Sorry, reality bites. Unions have destroyed education.

[Dave]

There's an awful lot of speculation and ignorance in some of these posts. Direct comparison between the professions is difficult, but to correct some of the teaching myths mentioned below:
In the state sector, salaries are set nationally. There is a little leeway for some teachers to be paid more, for example with recruitment and retention allowances, but this is only if the school can afford it.
Pupils, and parents, do vote with their feet. Schools which are seen as bad fail to attract new pupils, leading to job cuts. It is happening where I live.
Although, unlike doctors, we do not have to make life or death decisions, most teachers are aware that their performance can affect the life chances of their pupils. This is a heavy responsibility which the vast majority of my colleagues take seriously. Personally, I have the education of 204 students in my hands, twenty of whom are relying on 'A' level grades to be able to attend university.
There is a professional body for teachers, the GTC, which upholds standards, and has been compared to the GMC.
My average working week is more than 60 hours. This is not unusual in the secondary school where I work. I work beyond midnight once or twice a week in order to be able to spend weekends with my own children.
One major contibutory factor for workload is the constantly changing curriculum. This year, we have had to rewrite and teach new schemes of work for years 7 to 9 (360 hours of lessons). Year 9 had to be rewritten a second time last month after SATs were scrapped. This year we have also had to plan for a new 'A' Level course, involving a range of new texts, all requiring preparation. In 2010 we will have a completely different GCSE to teach, and the year after that 'functional skills', also requiring planning and preparation.
Those who have posted here about reading a newspaper in class, or being able to teach with no effort, are a disgrace, and better out of the profession. Pupils very quickly detect whether a teacher is prepared and making an effort or not.
There is more to teaching than standing in front of a class for an hour. We have to support pupils with a huge range of emotional and behavioural issues, from lost dinner money to bereavement, abuse and serious criminal activity.
When I took out life insurance, once it was realised that I was a teacher my policy was changed to remove the clause about paying out if I was unable to work due to stress.
If a teacher is absent, work still needs to be set for the supply teacher, and marked afterwards.
The quality of teaching is assessed. Lessons are observed by senior management. Ofsted visit schools at least every three years and publish their findings. Exam results for each teacher are analysed in detail. Nationally,every pupil in the state sector is given GCSE target grades, and schools are measured on their performance against these targets.
I'm not going to argue about equality of pay because I don't know enough about the demands of other professions. It would be nice if some people witheld judgements about teaching until they were better informed.

[Kim]

Has the Times or the person who wrote this article tried employing any of the teachers recently?

Unless they are amazing at their job, most teachers really can't do anything else, even their job properly.

[Whimsey]

I'm sure there's one thing we can all agree on. Those who run their banks into the ground by being incompetant irresponsible idiots should get nothing more than a kick in the pants for salary. And a slap round the face with a wet fish for a bonus.

I say this because arguing about teachers vs doctors (I'll leave lawyers out of this for the moment, as their virtue is defined by their client!)(ie, if they work for the bad guys, they are bad guys, etc), seems to be missing the point.

Both teachers and doctors are essential to society, and a valuable asset to humanity (though as I say I'd rate doctors higher - highest - simply because if you are lying on the roadway exsanguinating fast the only professional you'll want there is a doc!), and in comparison with them, vast swathes of professions, from investment banking onwards, is just far, far less valuable in comparison.

[Dick]

The suggestion alone shows why there is a pay difference. The suggestion is based on a solid foundation of lack of knowledge as to what Doctors and Lawyers do. Beside the fact that they are producing a product in the marketplace, and the teacher is producing a service in the government. If we view the teachers "cost to society" as the actual pay we would see that the cost of collecting taxes, redistributing the funds and the opportunity cost of the money lost in the workplace, a teacher would find she/he cost 4X what they are already paid. Any further renumeration would be contra-indicated.

[Ben Dover]

Doctors and especialy lawyers should be paid the same as teachers.

This will lower health care costs and make health care affordable to all.

[Steve]

The problem for teachers, in terms of both pay and respect, is that there is nothing in the system that allows for proper filtering by talent. There is no reason whatsoever why good teachers should not command (and get) very high salaries, like doctors and lawyers. But equally, they must accept that poor teachers must be weeded out of the profession altogether, and that mediocre teachers should only get mediocre salaries.

Symptomatic of (or possibly a cause of) the problem is that teaching has unions, while doctors and lawyers have professional bodies (the Law Society and the BMA), whose role is primarily to uphold very high standards, and who can and do remove those individuals who do not meet these standards. Change this, and we might start to give some teachers the respect and salary that some of them clearly deserve.

[Tom]

Which teachers are we talking about? Nursary teachers? Primary school teachers? High scool or University teachers?

Of course the fairest way would be to pay EVERYONE equally no matter what they do: teaching assistants to be paid the same as teachers, bank clerks paid the same as the CEO etc.

This is not possible. Teachers are not Doctors or Lawyers or Judges. They may need better pay, but the target should not be equal pay as doctors.

[Craig]

This is just retarded. Lawyers make way too much for their made up lawsuits. Teachers should make more if they are good....not just because they are teachers.

[Dr. Bob Cockrell]

I have taught in full-time faculty positions at the high school level and at the university level. Teachers should get paid the same as doctors and lawyers when chopped beef sells at the same price as prime rib. Paying more for chopped beef will not make it taste like prime rib. If I hire a doctor or lawyer who does not measure up, I select another. Teachers do not have to measure up to the criticism of their clients. Although there are many excellent teachers, a high percentage arrive at the lecture ill prepared and waste time discussing personal matters and opinions, which are not related to course content. If I want quality, I will go where quality is available and pay the price, but I will never pay cashmere prices for cotton at a Walmart's.

[Whimsey]

I don't think teachers, or lawyers or, really anyone (!) should earn as much as doctors who are, after all, the most important people in the world. They save your life, with skill that is jaw-dropping and knowledge that is brain-hurting.

('Course, they can kill you if they get it wrong...)

[GJB]

If a doctor fails - his patient dies.
If a lawyer fails - his client goes to prison.
If a teacher fails - ????
It is easy to become a teacher, you just need a teaching qualification which means you've passed an examination - not that you have the ability to pass on knowledge.

[GJB]

If a doctor fails - his patient dies.
If a lawyer fails - his client goes to prison.
If a teacher fails - ????
It is easy to become a teacher, you just need a teaching qualification which means you've passed an examination - not that you have the ability to pass on knowledge.

[Steven]

The comparisons are specious. The jobs are different - "30 clients at once". As a hospital Consultant I can have up to 70 in-patients (after my week on-call). An out-patient clinic is usually 30 patients in a day. But, out of hours I am on call and not necessarily working.I don't have lesson preparation, exam marking etc. (but I could be tempted by the holidays.)

[Anne Kent]

I expect that some teachers earn far more than some Lawyers.

That is without taking into account the ridiculous amount of time Teachers have off for School holidays.

In real terms Teachers probably are far better off than Lawyers, they work fewer working hours, do not have to have spent the extra years qualifying and do not have the responsiblity, as some Lawyers do, of running their own business.

When a business owner is indisposed it affects his staff, clients, financial supporter and Courts whereas when a teacher is indisposed ~ they call in a supply teacher.

In essence the two are totally unequatable ~ it is just another ploy for teachers to up their game and the irony is that in reality, compared to other professions, they are probably already grossly overpaid.

[Geoff]

Many of the comments here have been amazingly informative. I rather think it would be possible to turn them into a PhD study. My only contribution is to say that I loathed my family doctor in the UK who seemed to think he had some sort of licence for his self righteous opinions. On the other had I had teachers who forever enriched my life. I didn't exactly know that at the time, mind. But aged 60, I know it now. So should you happen to have taught at Westminster City in the 60s, I take off my hat and make a sweeping bow.

[Caz]

I agree with Snuffy; I didn't go into teaching for the money. In fact, I worked in the private sector for years, then left to have a family, so teaching is my "second career." I didn't go into it for the holidays (which as others here have rightly said, aren't the same holidays as the kids get - and how many people working in other professions are told when they can and can't take holidays?). I went into teaching because I thought it would be a satisfying job and somewhere where I could make a difference.
The pay is okay. Not fantastic but okay (and I was making a damn sight more before I became a teacher); it's the lack of status and respect we're given that's so galling. I know there are poor teachers - but there are poor practitioners in every profession, and it's no reason to slag off the lot of us.
Is it any wonder that so many of our pupils treat us like s**t, when this is the way their parents regard us?

[Sarah]

I am a solicitor with 7 years PQE experience. I have a first class degree from a good university, and won numerous prizes for academic performance. I could have become a city lawyer but chose to serve my local community (I believe in the deeply unfashionable concept of public service!). Until moving to work in local government due to the stress of high street practice (amongst other things, I was assualted by a client - it isn't just teachers or nurses who suffer such treatment) I had a practice that was c30% legal aid, 70% private. Any more legal aid than that and I wouldn't have made enough to cover my salary plus the overheads. At no point was I ever paid a salary even approaching that of my friends who teach, and I always insisted on the local market rate. It is a myth that solicitors are all well paid - yes, those in city firms are but the majority of solicitors do not work in such firms.

The compulsory training period for solicitors is 6 years (3 years undergraduate law degree, 1 year postgraduate diploma, 2 years articles, as opposed to 4 years for a teacher. I feel this should be reflected in the salaries - once the entry requirements for a teaching degree approach those of a law degree (3As at most 'good' universities) and teachers also take 6 years to qualify, then they can be paid more. In the meantime, please be aware that legal aid lawyers fulfill a vital social function for very poor pay, and are not permitted to join a union.

[Neil]

Absolutely,

Pay them the same as Legal Aid Lawyers. Then get the Legal Aid Lawyers unionised.

[Arthur Ellis-Davies]

Your anonymous teacher comments on his colleagues : "mediocre teachers who are predominately 2:2/3rd class degree candidates from the University of 'You're having a laugh' with a degree in 'You must be joking'."

I wonder what respect he has for pupils who won't even get that far?

Maybe he would be happier, and be better suited, working in Canada Square

[Graham]

Ironic don't you think...Teachers have the "strongest" trade union yet are paid the least....

[Ron Durham]

Your question - "Should teachers be paid the same as lawyers and doctors?", ought to be replaced by:-
"Should lawyers be paid the same as (or less than) teachers?". I wonder how a Defence lawyer manages to sleep at night, knowing that his criminal Accused has evaded punishment, while the Victim has to walk away, furious at the injustice of an "innocent" verdict.

[Dan]

Look, I taught as an associate teacher in a school in preparation for a PGCE after completion of my masters the other year. It was ridiculously easy, never had a more relaxed and simple task to accomplish, sorry guys and girls but there just isn't any difficulty in teaching, people who get stressed doing it, shouldn't be doing it. Try doing a PhD it's far more demanding than a bunch of kids.

[Claire]

We used to have a saying at uni- "those who can do, those who can`t teach". Today there are far too many young graduates who just choose to go into teaching because "it's the easiest option" or because they don`t know what to do after graduating.

[Basil Howitt]

One thing's for sure:there are far too many overpaid, incompetent solicitors around.

[Terry]

If teacherw want to be paid like lawyers and doctors, they can work hard and prove their ability as good and able teacher and become head of a departmern (taking on more resposiblity and getting paid more) and also apply to other schools which will pay more. let them work harder to earn the huge salaries they want. Even better they can work in the independent sector which pays a lot more and employs the best of the bunch!

[Approfondi]

No! Lawyers and doctors should be paid the same as teachers.

[Andy]

As I read all the comments that slag off teachers, or the ones purportedly from teachers or ex-teachers saying how easy a life it is, it occurs to me that to a great extent they are not wrong; it is actually possible for an uninspired, unmotivated, unintelligent person to get a job as a teacher, cynically ignore the failure and chaos they cause, and not get the sack because there is no mechanism for that. For that matter you can do almost no work outside school time, if that's what you really want (see "A Teacher" 04/11 07:14). I don't need to point out how popular that makes you with colleagues and pupils.

But it's much harder to be a good teacher; I, for one, am not working 1/3 of the hours I did in my previous job, as it would have been quite hard to work a 165 hour week.

But in the end it's the laws of supply and demand that really apply in any job. There may well be evidence that there's a shortage of good teachers around, and too many poor ones, and similarly for lawyers (Simon Wilson - if a client can drop you and rush off to a new lawyer at any time, does that mean there are just too many lawyers?), doctors or dustmen. But if so, this is in fact evidence that more needs to be done to attract better teachers, lawyers and dustmen; if, as some posters seem to suggest, teachers should be paid less, how on earth would that improve education in this country?

[Delilah]

J has, sadly, hit the nail on the head. Women are just so grateful to have time with the kids while being able to "use their brains" that the salary becomes almost immaterial. As a result, salaries fall; and working conditions fall soon after. They did it to teaching. They are doing it to law (women now dominate the most poorly-paid areas of the law, including the windowless-cubicle sweat-shops of conveyancing, low-value litigation, legal aid, "family law"). Before women became such accommodating conveyancing slaves, it was a rather cosy and well-paid closed shop. Now an estate agent earns more than the lawyer who ensures that his client actually owns the house after paying for it. Never understood how the conveyancing profession managed to score such a massive own goal, unless it was male partners figuring that they could get the girls to do it as a freebie to bring in important corporate clients (served mainly by full-time male lawyers). Even in medicine you'll now find more female GPs but few female consultant surgeons; guess who has most employment protection, but earns least money and deals with most crap.

When women become less willing to write "WILL WORK FOR TIME OFF" on their foreheads with magic marker, salary and conditions will improve.

[Sebastian]

I spent 5 years as a teacher (secondary) before I left to qualify as a solicitor. Compared to the work I do now teaching was a doddle. I work until 7.00pm most evenings not the 4.00pm finish I once had. My clients are really demanding. One serious mistake and it could cost me my job - not like teaching where no one knows what you do in the classroom. I remember regularly reading my daily newspaper while the kids did their work. I left teaching because of the pay. My salary is now 3 times what it was as a teacher. Would I go back to it? No way.

[MEC]

Very interesting discussions around degree classifications. Doctors very rarely graduate with honours so most teachers are, on that basis better qualified.
Some of my best teachers came from the days when they had a Cert Ed, rather than a degree.
I think discussion about grades at A level or degree level is really a red herring since we know that although hard work will get you so far, a lot of other factors come into play, social class and schools attended being two of them.
So basically it is a case of supply and demand, and teachers not doing too badly at the end of it all since they have very good employment terms and conditions.

[H]

I went into primary teaching despite getting a high degree in English from Cambridge university.

Teaching does have a far lower status than law or medicine: In many cases, when asked what I do, I may as well say that I am a babysitter for all the status teaching confers on me. Most of my coursemates have gone into law or similar professions, and they certainly have a much higher status within 'polite society'!

But that's not why I do it. I love working with the children I work with and I feel that they deserve the best start in life and I can help to give them that. I'd love more pay, but I don't necessarily think we deserve it more than any other profession does. We do get fantastic holidays, but that's not why I do it either (although they are much needed by the time they arrive). I'd also love more status but that's unlikely to happen whilst the predominant attitude within teaching (esp. primary) is that you don't need to be bright to teach young children. In fact, the number of comments that have dismissed my Cambridge degree and academic background as irrelevant to my abilities as a teacher, some even branding it as a 'burden'.

I think we need to get away from the attitude within teaching that 'you do your time, you get your promotion', as this *can* lead to a number of high ranking, uninspiring and mediocre lead educational professionals.

Allow teaching to be a profession where those with the passion, commitment and performance can shine rather than a stale, rewards-only-for-long-service profession, and perhaps people will start taking us seriously and giving us a little more respect! (And that would be much more welcome than a pay rise!)

[V]

People always comment about the hours and holidays that teachers get. I've seen my sister (a high school teacher) starting work at 8am, leaving school at 4pm, having a couple of hours break then working until 10pm marking children's work on a regular basis. As for holidays, people assume teachers are off the whole time the children are. Of course they're not, they're in at least 3 weeks of the summer holidays, and a few days on either side of each of the all the others.

Hopefully most people will have at least one teacher who they remember with fondness for whatever reason for the rest of their lives, teachers like this can't be measured by the exam results they produce, but more by the children's willingness to learn with them. Those are the ones worth twice their weight in gold, far more than lawyers! I am in awe of anyone who manages to teach, I know I couldn't, especially not now that teaching has changed so much!

[Broke solicitor with student debt]

Regarding the comments querying whether anyone benefits from lawyers (unless they get divorced). I would like to point out that if you live in the UK, are protected by its criminal and civil law, benefit from rights to own property and participate in a civilised democracy then you benefit from lawyers. Don't forget the many (comparatively) low-paid hard-working lawyers in the public sector who both create and enforce the law which keeps this society going. We do more than you realise.