The nightmare of being a final-year graduate in 2009 - and why something needs to be done

It's not easy being a student these days. Not only do they carry huge student loans, there are now fewer and fewer jobs available for them after graduation too, as Sarah Beard, a current student at the University of Lincoln, explains.....

"I am one of the UK’s ‘300 000’ students shortly to become a graduate; an unnerving prospect in ordinary circumstances but in the midst of the current economic crisis it is nothing short of a nightmare.

I will soon be sitting my final exams for my Business and Tourism BA (hons) degree and then…………then what?  Nothing, as of yet; and may I stress that this is most certainly not the result of a lack of trying but a reflection of the UK’s current economy. Since October 2008 I have been relentlessly searching to secure graduate employment by visiting recruitment fairs, subscribing to each and every graduate job organisation and applying for numerous graduate schemes offered by large companies.  All of which has been to no avail. 

It could be argued then, that my CV is unattractive and so economic crisis or not my profile is just not desirable in the eyes of the employer. However, without wanting to blow my own trumpet too much I believe that my CV is attractive. It's both academically strong and highlights the vast variety of experience I have, including a twelve month industrial placement.  It, and my credibility, were proven recently after I reached the penultimate round of a major UK airline’s (British Airways) graduate programme but sadly and for unknown reasons, this was as far as I progressed.

As the economic situation has deteriorated, I have watched scheme after scheme be postponed, cancelled or closed prematurely due to the enormous influx of applications from other, desperate students like myself.  It is a very disheartening sight but I refuse to let it be a deterrent  - which is unfortunately what it has become for some of my classmates. There is a general consensus that whilst, vast redundancies are being made on a weekly basis, the graduate will not be prioritised for employment and so their job hunting efforts will be in vain.

The students who do, however appear to be in demand are those studying accountancy and engineering because adverts for these professions persistently occupy the graduate ‘milk rounds’ and offer the highest salaries and most attractive benefits. I would like to propose that these firms adjust their strategies in light of the recession and offer more modest packages; the objective being to make funds available for more positions in a variety of roles.

This is undisputedly, a potentially major issue that is slowly bubbling and will erupt come the end of the summer finals, when students become the unemployed and the unemployment rate records another new high. So, just where are the government, and what exactly are they doing about this?  Are they even aware of this latest, imminent backlash from the dire state of their economy?  Yes, I believe they are aware because they had made encouraging steps to provide real help.  In January 2009 they announced that ‘university graduates who have no job at the end of their courses could be offered modestly-paid internships under a government scheme to help them get a job or new skills’, but unfortunately this appears to be a case of all talk and no action because nothing has materialised.  A contradictory silence because the need for movement has been recognised, at least by Universities secretary John Denham who asked ‘What do we do with them? We can't just leave people to fend for themselves’.

This proposal needs to be followed through because the opportunity of an internship would prove to be an invaluable lifeline, especially for the graduates whose degrees did not incorporate a work placement. 
It is almost perplexing that Mr Brown has not done more to ease the situation because ultimately it means more financial pressure on his government as the graduates of 2009 apply for job seekers allowance, for an indefinite period.  This is an option I should probably start to seriously consider – though it’s really not what I have grafted so hard for, over the last four years.

 Alternatively I could go down the postgraduate education route but this would mean moving back home at further self, sorry, Dad’s expense -  clearly a terrifying prospect for both myself and my parents! Or, if the recession is to be long lived then maybe I should train as a psychiatrist, bailiff or undertaker as the demand for their services will undoubtedly thrive. It’s a tough one."

UPDATE: Why the snobbery against less well-known universities? (please read before you comment!)

Read School Gate on:

Is it worth going to university if you can't get a job afterwards?

Graduation 2009: tips for getting that dream job (network, network, network!)

20 movies which make you wish you'd gone to university

Should prospective students take any notice of the RAE ratings?

Could student pressure be behind grade inflation?

Comments

[Claire]

I'm also in my final year and am fortunate enough to have found funding for post-graduate study (vital for the industry I want to go into). Many of my friends are frantically applying for jobs and graduate schemes, and the thing that concerns me most is the fact that the rounds of interviews, aptitude tests, presentations they have to give are putting their degrees in jeopardy. I noticed this with my brother two years ago and it is even worse now with the huge amount of competition. Most people are applying for 3-4 schemes or jobs, each of which involve 4-5 rounds of testing and interviews, each of which takes up at least a day. This can mean up to 20 days of missed lectures and seminars and time taken away from study and dissertation writing. While I understand that companies have to have some way of sifting through the vast number of applications to find the best candidates, they must be aware that students are at their mercy. My brother said "I can catch up on missed material through reading and from my friends' notes", which is true to a certain extent, but face-to-face contact is there for a reason and lectures and seminars are opportunities to ask questions and discuss points that may be difficult and encourage individual thinking beyond the "syllabus". My brother finished with a good 2:1, which some might argue is all you need, but I wonder how well he might have done had he not missed so much while travelling up and down the country in pursuit of a graduate scheme.

[Whimsey]

I think Claire makes a good point. Uni is for studying primarily, and getting a good degree is something you either do at uni, or not at all.

Can't all this milk round stuff be done after finals, or even in the following autumn?

As for the article's final paragraph, well, in the end, the market sorts out employment and salary, and if engineering and accountancy are in demand, then those clearly are the subjects to study if you want a job and a well-paid one at that.

Trouble is, what A level student can accurately predict the economic climate in three-five years' time (allowing for two years at A level and three at degree level)?

I would say, right now, that with the current recession, Claire's point is even more valid - if the odds on getting a graduate level job are falling right now, then focus primarily on getting the very best degree your brain is up to, since you probably won't get a job on the milk round anyway, but having that tip-top degree in a couple of years when the recession eases off again, could give you the vital edge on recruitment.

[Law student]

If one has money then its not so bad. There has never been a better time to do more study. However I cannot agree with this proposal:
'The students who do, however appear to be in demand are those studying accountancy and engineering because adverts for these professions persistently occupy the graduate ‘milk rounds’ and offer the highest salaries and most attractive benefits. I would like to propose that these firms adjust their strategies in light of the recession and offer more modest packages; the objective being to make funds available for more positions in a variety of roles.'
Why should those who are in demand take less money so that those who ARE NOT in demand can have more? If they are not in demand it is because the market economy does not need/want them. Smacks of a sort of socialism to me. Also there are too many needless/pointless courses at Uni and the recession will go to work on them, trimming off what has just been a way for students to party for a few yrs at the tax payer/parent's expense before emerging with a degree in lesbian management studies which leaves them completely unemployable and utterly perplexed as to why.

[Louise]

I graduated with a high 2:1 in English Lit and Lang last year, and have yet to find a permanent job- so the problem is not just for upcoming graduates but the ones who have already been out of uni for the last 9 months. I am dreading another wave of graduates that will be applying for the same jobs as me, and since I do not have the luxury of being able to afford further study I have no choice but to keep looking. I would like to say I feel more prepared for the workplace through temping in offices, but this doesn't appear to have helped me in the selection process at all. While I have watched my friends fly off around the world to do teaching and work experience, I have been struggling to make ends meet from various office jobs and some time receiving Jobseekers Allowance. It looks like a few more years at home with the parents and taking any job that comes up is the future for me.....

[Malcolm McLean]

There is a code of practise for graduate recruiters which should prevent interviews from being held in term time.

Internships are no answer. All that happens is that 3-6 months unpaid labour becomes necessary to find a job, whilst the number of jobs remains constant. Then it creeps up to 6-12 months' unpaid labour and the interviews for the internships are every bit as difficult as the interviews for the jobs used to be.

[Claire]

"There is a code of practise for graduate recruiters which should prevent interviews from being held in term time."

Really? Well they certainly don't adhere to it from what I've seen. I'm talking about big, national and international companies, household names. And despite my complaints about it I don't really know how they could only hold the testing and interview rounds (which often take place in the Spring term, with applications closing in December the previous year) in university holiday time with the volume of applications they are getting, unless they only recruit from Oxbridge or other eight-week term universities (which they obviously don't). The answer would be to hold the rounds in the summer, and I assume that some companies do this, but a lot don't. Perhaps it's a supply/demand thing, where students keep applying earlier and earlier to be ahead of the game so companies bring the deadline earlier and earlier etc. Maybe my (future) children will be able to apply for their future jobs at the same time as looking at high schools :)

Regarding internships, in France they have tried to solve high unemployment amongst young people with (amongst other things) "stages", where students/graduates are given a few months of work experience for the equivalent of about £250 per month. While it's good that they are at least doing something, employers use it as a form of cheap employment (when I did six months in Paris last year the company I worked for had 4 permanent members of staff and 6 "stagiaires" places - for the salary of one permanent member of staff, 4 stagiaires could be employed). Graduates often go from stage to stage, hoping for the offer of a permanent place after a few months, often for years. It was great for me because I had great work experience in a foreign country and was going back to the UK to finish my studies, but many of the French stagiaires were pretty disillusioned about the whole thing (explains the riots) - pretty much like Louise below.

The fact is that with the economical situation the only thing people like me and the blogger can do is strive to be the very best at whatever it is we want to do, get great results, persevere, get as much work experience as may be necessary, use the university careers service for help with applications/cover letters and interview technique, do plenty of reading up on the chosen industry, then hope for the best (as well as a bit of luck). Pretty much what my Mum's been telling me for years, then...

[opiniononeverything]

Do assessment centres count as interviews in the code of practise? When I was on my graduate scheme (before they made us all redundant just after Christmas) I regularly did note taking at assessment centres throughout the country, nearly all of these in term time.
My advice would be to get as much work experience as possible and go to as many interviews as possible. I have interviewed for jobs I had no intention of accepting, just for the experience.

[john davies]

When I graduated (business studies and IT) I applied for about five hundred jobs in 1995. It is hard but there is a job out there for you somewhere... just keep plugging away. I found that filling out job applications was a skill in itself as were interviews and assessment centres.

[LH]

Wow what a sense of entitlement this student has. So being a final year student is a 'nightmare' because she hasn't found a job before she's even graduated?!

For a long time now a university degree hasn't guaranteed a good career. Forging a career that you love is an ongoing process involving hard work, and also a bit of luck.

Just sailing into a 'graduate' position the day after graduation would have been optimistic even in the boom years. Stick at it and your career will come.

[Julia Larsen]

When I graduated back in the late seventies, during a minor recession, it took me a very long time to find employment in my chosen field. Through sheer hard grafting and perserverence I eventually found work. The difference is this generation actually believe work comes knocking at your door. It doesn't, and never has. Like everything else in life you have to chase your dreams.

[Niles]

I graduated with a 2.1 from a good university in the boom years of the late 1990's and spent the next 3 years after graduation in various "dead end" jobs working as a receptionist and in call centres before finding a decent job with good career prospects in a field I was interested in. A degree does not offer any particular advantages career wise, but made me a more rounded individual and meant I met lots of interesting people from different backgrounds. But then again I did study history and politics and not accountancy. The days of students studying arts and humanities subjects are surely numbered.

[Tarquin]

Welcome to my world - I graduated in 2008 and it's just got worse and worse

I too got through to the end of a very good graduate scheme but they only recruited 50% of their usual intake, an insider informed me when I lost out

I managed to get the odd temping role, but the temp agencies favour the longer-term temps with experience, and within months they had virtually no jobs available as companies tightened their belts

It's not attractive - you will have to ride it out

I never saw my degree as principally for a career, but did it for the fun of it, obviously it opens doors but you can't expect anything afterwards, you just have to muddle through like everyone else (unless you do a science degree) - get what you can and see where you are in a few years, I decided to leave the country for a year!

[Claire]

"When I graduated back in the late seventies, during a minor recession, it took me a very long time to find employment in my chosen field... The difference is this generation actually believe work comes knocking at your door. It doesn't, and never has."

No, I don't know any students who believe that, though there must be some for whom Daddy/Mummy have a job lined up when they leave. The difference is that back in the seventies students were given grants and didn't leave university saddled with £10,000-worth (minimum for the average student) of debt that needed to be paid off. The university world and the job market have changed vastly over the last thirty years and the higher number of graduates flooding into the market every year has led to a great deal more competition. No student thinks it is easy, nor should it be, but the pressure to have a job/further study organised for when one graduates is enormous. Employers can afford to be ever more demanding, and waiting until the degree is in the bag before applying for graduate schemes etc can (though not always, and not by me) be seen as lacking in ambition.

Yes, there are *some* lazy, complacent students who think a job will be handed to them on a plate because they snoozed through 5 hours of lectures a week for three years, but that is an extremely small minority. Most of us are working incredibly hard in order to prove ourselves to a demanding, competitive labour market and resent the implication that we think it should be easy.

[Jan]

A Business and Tourism BA(hons) from University of Lincoln doesn't sound very academic.In the good old days a person with good GCEs would have worked their way up through a company.Why would they need a degree in Business and Tourism?I am sorry but I think there are far too many young people at university these days.I have had experience of working with young people temping who couldn't even do the filing as they couldn't spell.(Filing is actually a very important job,especially in the engineering field where I worked). They all had degrees from third rate universities.As for engineers, they deserve the jobs as they have far harder courses than arts students.I have incredible respect for engineers.

[anonymosity]

Niles, interesting comment. I always think of my favourite musicians, the Handsome Family aka Brett and Rennie Sparks, if you read their biographical information he studied medieval music at university and they both had soul destroying mindless jobs before making a living from their musical and lyrical genius. Rennie makes use of some of these awful jobs in her spooky stories and spooky lyrics. The sheer horror of some of these jobs that anyone with an IQ of 80 would find beneath their intellectual ability makes good fodder for twenty first century gothic tales...

[david skands]

You are doing a degree in Business & Tourism at the University of Lincoln!

Your rubbish.

[stephen brown]

Business and Tourism BA (hons) degree - good for backpacking and that's about it.

[Jan Thomas]

So some silly girl foolish enough not to realise that there are universities and "universities", degrees and " degrees" can't get a job as a clerk in a travel agent's in a recession? Hold the front page.

[Alice]

The law of Supply and Demand will always apply. Students should consider what demand there is for their chosen subject - the point about Science, Maths and Engineering has already been made. University is not a finishing school.

[Colin]

I do feel sorry for Sarah. No doubt, she has worked hard and does feel aggrieved. However, as a director of a software house, which is doing very well thank you, let me reveal a few home truths:

1. most employers like numerate and literate graduates who have undertaken courses which demand skill and hard work - e.g. accountancy, IT and engineering. On this basis, and given the number of graduates looking for work, I would not interview her if we had a trainee vacancy

2. internships, despite the Government's temporary enthusiasm for them, generally don't work. The employer scrapes around for tasks to fill the internee's time and the latter becomes frustrated when the inevitable happens and the only tasks available are filing etc. Unqualified graduates are just too demanding

3. employers also grade universities. Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial then the rest of the Russell Group. If you are not in this batch, there is no need to interview you since there are many good young people who are from these institutions looking for work. Better universities implies harder entry criteria and harder courses. The others just don't carry the same weight.

4.face reality. You will have to re-train. Even if a post involving tourism arises, you will face competition. How many languages do you speak?

Sorry if this is cruel but Sarah seems to have a marvelous ability to blame everyone else. The only person who will solve her problems is Sarah. Start thinking afresh.

[Lou]

This situation has been around for years. For every place on a ‘graduate scheme’ there are hundreds of applicants. The government and universities tout the graduate starting salary as £22k but this doesn’t take into account the thousands of graduates who have to take stop gap jobs in bars and call centres whilst trying to find a ‘graduate’ position. Students were just as desperate when I graduated in 2005, but the buoyant economy allowed us to ignore it and keep pushing young people into masses of debt with student loans and tuition fees.
It took me a year to find a poition which used my degree, and even then the pay was nowhere near the supposed average starting salary.

[Claire]

Colin has this nailed, and David Sands, if you are going to insult the girl, at least get it right; you're rubbish.

[Claire (the first one)]

Ooh there's another Claire :)

I agree, very interesting post Colin. I disagree about the internships, though, but perhaps that's because I've been fortunate enough to find two great internship posts on my year abroad (one in France, one in South America), and haven't been in the unlucky position he describes. I do think that it can be helpful to have worked while at university, however. I have two part-time jobs (one in a bar, one in an office) and work about 20 hours a week. I have 14 hours of contact time and any free time is spent studying (and occasionally partying). I am very busy as a result, but I find that the busier I am the more I get done, and my marks haven't suffered. I know that this wouldn't be for everyone - some people have a lower stress threshold or a higher workload (though learning three languages plus History of Art requires plenty of vocab-learning and reading, it's not like medicine for example in terms of hours, and I know Oxbridge actively discourage work during term time), but the majority of students could fit in 10 hours or so of work, or volunteering if they don't need remuneration. After all, most of us have no dependents so should make the most of it (though my boyfriend says he hardly sees me even though we live together - I've told him to just hang on until my finals are over and then he can have my full attention!). I feel that this gives a better idea of the world of work (time management, juggling timetables, coordinating shifts between two different businesses, making sure I don't leave uni work to the last minute because I don't have any last minutes, working to the best of my ability but also efficiently so that I can meet friends for happy hour etc) than someone who has done no paid work at all. At the very least, future employers will know that I can turn up for work on time, keep customers happy and no one has felt the need to sack me yet:)

[Claire, London]

If you do a 'mickey mouse' degree, as my old history teacher called them, then you are not competitive in the job market. Surprisingly, a degree in something that didn't exist a few years ago, from a low rated university, does not make you appealing.

I got a good arts degree from a red brick university, had a clear plan as to what I wanted to do and what would make good transferrable skills. I then changed my mind and did a vocational degree and now work in healthcare, earning 35k 3 years post qual and don't regret it. I have never had a problem getting a job, no matter what the economic climate; this is not because I am amazing (I am not, I have friends much cleverer than me) but I can sell my good qualities and show what I would bring to a role. Maybe if people stopped thinking that things were beneath them, or that starting at the bottom was wrong, then they'd get somewhere.

[Whimsey]

One major 'reality check' that all students have to face up to at some point, is that by and large interesting work is usually badly paid and well paid work is usually not interesting.

Most humanities 'subjects' (eg, maedival literature) aren't something you can make a living out of, so do it just for the sake of spending three years at uni doing something that fascinates you, and getting an ace degree as your ticket into employment in the real world.

At least a vocational degree -whether it's medicine, engineering or yes, even business/toursism - is at least teaching you stuff you will need to do a job in those areas.

I completely agree that students (and indeed all young people - all people, in fact!) need to be employable in terms of their literacy, numeracy, punctuality, diligence, etc - all basic office/life skills.

[Tanya]

'Law Student' - you are so right. It's supply and demand although I do feel for young people who for the last 15-20 years have been sold the dream of going to university with the prospect of a healthy career / salary. It was obviously a load of tosh dreamed up by a Socialist government who wanted to prove that we live in a meritocratic country... we don't!

As one poster here has commented, employers know the difference between 'degrees' and 'degrees' and the best universities vs the rest. Scientists, those from Oxbridge / Durham / LSE, engineers etc will continue to get well paid jobs easily - the rest of the grads will have to struggle.

That being said: don't give up Sarah Beard! I got a rubbish 2:2 in English and History from Leeds University in 2002. After a real slog earning well under 20k for 3 years after graduating, I now earn 3 times that 7 years later in my chosen career (marketing). Not bragging - just an example of how you can make the employment system work for you. The answer is to take whatever relevant job comes your way for the experience, grit your teeth on your finances, pay for targeted PROFESSIONAL qualifications if you have to, and be determined. The rewards do come for those who really apply themselves to their careers (albeit much later than you might have originally expected... I'm still paying for my degree + prof quals)

[M]

I have to say I am absolutely disgusted by some of the comments that have been posted on here. This only serves to show what a lot of narrow minded bigots we have out there. As an employer I would much rather recruit Sarah who has shown ambition, drive and an interest in developing her appeal to employers that any of you.
There is more to gaining a university degree than the qualification, it is about being proactive, having an awareness of your skills and the personal development. Sarah shows great commercial awareness which is more than what I can say for some of you; namely Jan Thomas, Stephen Brown and David Skands - If you can't offer anything remotely intelligent or respectful then do not say anything at all!

[Soon to be Engineering Graduate]

"I would like to propose that these firms adjust their strategies in light of the recession and offer more modest packages; the objective being to make funds available for more positions in a variety of roles"

I, in turn, would like to propose that students undertaking degrees in "Business and Tourism" or "Retail Therapy Management" rethink their decision of going to University in the first place. As a soon to be business graduate, Sarah should be more than in the know about such things as supply and demand and business growth. If people with your degree are not needed, Sarah, they are not employed, it is that simple. As a soon to be Engineering graduate from a top University, I can offer you no sympathy at your lack of job offers, the differing levels of 'graduate packages' represent adequately the amount of work one has put into gaining a degree and the difficulty thereof. We may graduate at the same time, but make no mistake, our degrees are not equal. In future, please try not to play down the hard graft that we real graduates put into our three years at university.

[Consultant]

After graduating around five years ago, I have worked my way up in a company, and am now in the position where I am conducting final round interviews of recent graduates for positions at the financial research consultancy where I have been working since graduating. I have seen both sides of this situation, and I am sorry to say that Laura is going to struggle to find a good job not only in the current market, but also at any time.

At my company we offer a starting salary of £21k after a three month probation period, with good career prospects. It’s not a bad scheme, but is also far from being above average in terms of starting salary.

We get hundreds/thousands of applicants for our graduate scheme, and in order to get this massive stack of applications down to a manageable level, the initial things that the team look at when we review CVs is the quality of the applicant’s A-levels, the university they went to, the course they did and the grade they achieved.

I’m assuming that Laura’s A-levels are not very good, Lincoln is not considered to be a good university, and her course is clearly going to be seen (whether rightly or wrongly) as a bit of a ‘mickey mouse’ course, and so her CV would be thrown away – unless she had some excellent meaningful work experience or other relevant skills. Even then, with this academic background we would probably reject her.

Now I’m not saying that Laura wouldn’t have the potential to be a great employee, the problem is that we don’t have the time to interview everyone, and so we immediately go to the top universities in order to begin to select our interviewees. It’s not a perfect system, but I can tell you from experience that there is a strong correlation between the quality of university and A-levels achieved, and the calibre of the graduate. This isn’t a new thing either, we are taking fewer people on this year than before, but there is no way that Laura would have ever received an interview here. Her academics are going to put her far down on the list.

It is unfortunate that some students from these lesser universities cannot see the situation objectively from the employer’s standpoint. Your course was probably more demanding than many at other more prestigious universities, but do you think when we have 1,000 CVs to look through that we have time to individually assess the merits of each course? We need to do something to get the number down.

My advice would be to get in at a basic level at a decent company doing anything, and then work your way up. Whether it’s answering the phones or making the tea. I know it sounds like a cliché, but we have a girl who is now a senior analyst who used to be in basic admin. She never went to university, but is hard working and bright, and proved herself over time in order to get to where she is today. The other alternative is to do further training or to gain further skills such as other languages, or even unpaid internships.

The jobs are out there, and if you aren’t being successful then that’s because there is someone else out there that is a bit better than you on paper, and who has tried that little bit harder to get the role.

[Consultant]

Laura? I meant Sarah in the above post.

[Gareth Lowry]

It is an unfortunate product of today's ecconomy that private sector companies are seeking experience over and above qualifications.
I myself recruit for an SME and we don't have the resources to offer graduates the vocational training they require to fulfill many of our roles.
My advice to students is to choose A levels or an access course to pursue a vocational degree that will give you the necessary skills and knowledge to start at ground level within a company.
A sandwich degree is a good idea to gain vocational experience however as in Sarah's case does not necessarily guarantee a job.
Any way good luck to Sarah and all other graduates who have had the discipline and grit to complete their degrees.

[Daniel Harper]

I graduated from the University of Lincoln in 2008 and got a graduate level job within one month of graduating.

It isn't that hard.

[Whimsey]

Soon to be Engineering Graduate (and Already Fully Qualified Prat)

Clearly no one has told you that intellectual snobbery is a pretty repellent character trait.

While you are looking down on low-life that are less academic than you, don't you realise that Eventually To Be Nobel Prize Winners are looking down on you for being so pathetically intellectually weak yourself?

Unless you are the cleverest person in the entire universe, there will always be someone more intellectually able than you.

Your post also indicates a general truism of engineers - that they have zilch interpersonal skills.

[Renato Iwantertomarto]

Maybe it is because she's got/getting a lincoln university degree. Let's be honest, a degree from there is not exactly attractive..its not even a russell-group university.

[Sarah (another one)]

"I would like to propose that these [accountancy & engineering] firms adjust their strategies in light of the recession and offer more modest packages; the objective being to make funds available for more positions in a variety of roles."

Is this a joke? Why would, for example, an accountancy firm want to hire someone who hadn't been studying a tough numerical degree with some quantitative academic rigour? Or, since when do they offer tourism advice as part of their services?

Studying Business and Tourism sounds a fun way to spend three years, but was she seriously expecting an Engineering firm to offer her a role afterwards?

I'll never forget the Cambridge University graduate (in Archaeology & Anthropology) who was taking orders in Pizza Hut.

Sarah sounds like a capable individual and in the long run, I'm sure she has the capabilities to prosper, even if it's not in her first field of choice. I wish her well.

[Lotti]

Whimsey, please don't be so rude about engineers... Your attitude shows a certain "pretty repellent character trait" of your own; frankly you come across as a judgmental buffoon.

Engineers, accountants and the like take on highly intensive, somewhat vocational courses, which furnish graduates with some kind of useful ability straight off. They need some training but if they go into those fields, they already have a lot of knowledge, and know how to apply it. They have also, due to a large amount of contact hours, learnt to manage their time effectively, and learnt effective group and solo work techniques. So why wouldn't companies go for them?

[Lotti]

Also, David Skands, please learn to spell before telling anyone who can manage to write a coherent piece "Your rubbish".

Unless you have anything more constructive to offer?

[Helene]

Just a question: a lot of people wouldn't rate a Durham graduate, then? Durham is not in the Russell group. A couple of the above posts seem to regard this as a serious failing. Is it? When I was at Durham we considered ourselves pretty favoured.

[Robert]

Its deja vu all over again. I graduated in 1993 at the tail end of the last recession. I did a temp job for 3 months, then was on the dole for 3 months. I then had to take a job on the edge of my area (an engineering job, I was a transport planner) for 2 years before I could take a preferred job.

The effect of a recession is that you have fewer opportunities. In the recovery your career is behind the progession/salary curve in where it would be otherwise. Its tough, but that's life.

The difference between now and 15 years ago is the colossal amount of debt graduates now have.

Sarah's comments about accountancy firms are naive in the extreme. The big 4 want the "best" grads as they define them - to work in junior roles earning fees (and undergoing training). They don't want non-fee earning overheads. They are not charities...

[Harry S]

try doing a masters or learning a language! with the european influx of graduates being bilingual and possessing MA qualifications as more standard than the BA qualifications considered necessary here, this would make one infintely more employable. although to be honest, business and tourism is a pretty awful degree, and at lincoln. its not sarahs fault, but the governments for giving her false hope in making her think it is a worthwhile qualification with many job oppertunities coming from it upon graduation. the government shouldnt have created so many false places at university which were always ultimately going to bear little fruit.

i shall stick to completing my MA in political theory at the top department in the country, safe in the knowledge my job prospects are still good despite the recession.

[Thomas]

Mr David Skands, I wouldn't criticise people until you can use correct grammar.

i think you meant 'you're rubbish.'

As in you are rubbish. Sarah cannot own rubbish in that instance, so the possessive 'your' cannot be used.

I hope you find this useful in the future, as it may help you get a job one day.

Although, I for one wouldn't employ you.

[Henry]

Well, I hold similar strong opinions to many people here but will take a risk and digress to say your pretty cute!

[Arabella]

Don't want to blow your own trumpet? Honestly, I struggle to think of who WOULDN'T want to employ someone with your superior intellect and modesty. Your CV is about as attractive as a cold sore. Business and tourism? Really? Wow.

[sa]

Sarah is cute

[Durham Postgraduate]

The problem here is that students believe that the title BA or BSc gives them the right to wade into a job which they may be well and truly out of their depth with because they went to a university with a poor academic standard. It is not bigoted to state that there are universities that exceed the academic potential of others. I have friends who went to university to essentially get drunk for three years: nothing wrong with that if it's not costing the state anything (which it didn't) but don't expect that to be a prerequisite for walking into graduate position at Credit Suisse!

The attitudes of the universities is always 'blame the government' but if they are offering places to a student with straight Cs in Media Studies, Drama and Sports Studies, how can they honestly believe a company is going to think 'this university consistently has this caliber of student. Perfect!'

The sheer number of universities in the UK is beyond the pale. University of Glamorgan?!! University of Abertay?!! Seriously, 'graduates' from these 'institutions' believe they have actually achieved anything? Come on... get real.

[Rob]

The pattern that Sarah describes pretty much mirrors what occurred in the early 1990's, when I graduated: engineers, accountants and modern linguists from top tier universities were in demand...to the extent that any graduates were in the middle of a major recession.

The reasons for this then and now are very straightforward. These courses tend to produce graduates with immediately deployable skills, and generally also provide evidence of work ethic and rigorous analytical capabilities which are not guaranteed from other courses at bottom tier universities.

In a market where applications massively outnumber available positions, employers simply filter on criteria that will provide them with a manageable initial interview pool with core skills that they can use immediately.

Not every engineering or accounting graduate will have all the interpersonal, communication and other attributes desired by a particular employer, but there will be enough that do to to fill the few jobs currently available.

This situation should not come as a surprise to anyone, even those that didn't live through the last major recession.

All that you have to do is look back four or five years and review the widely publicised challenges that graduate recruiters faced at that time.

Finding the desired quality of numeracy and communication skills were frequently reported as being the greatest challenge area for graduate recruiters during the boom times.

Come the crunch, no one should be surprised to hear that employers desire for these attributes is unchanged. They can simply be much more ruthless in their selection process to ensure that their needs are met.

[Rob]

"I would like to propose that these firms adjust their strategies in light of the recession and offer more modest packages; the objective being to make funds available for more positions in a variety of roles" - Reading the latter I can't help but wonder what on earth the content of a 'Business & Tourism' course at Lincoln University might have included. I hope that this kind of output is not representative of the average graduate of this course, otherwise Sarah will have done her colleagues a huge disservice by making them all unemployable!

[Rob]

Interesting Facts:

Lincoln University ranked 103 out of 112 by the Times in 2009.

Lincoln University Entry Standard as published by the Times in 2009: 261 UCAS Points(ie BCC to CCC at A Level)

Published minimum entry standard for Tourism Management at Lincoln University: 200 UCAS Points (ie CDD at A Level)

Lincoln University Tourism Management Entry Standard as published by the Times in 2009: 215 UCAS Points(ie approximately CCC at A Level)

Lincoln University Accounting & Finance Entry Standard as published by the Times for 2009: 241 UCAS Points (ie BCC to CCC at A Level)

Cambridge University Mechanical Engineering Entry Standard as published by the Times for 2009: 536 UCAS Points (ie approximately A*A*A*A at A Level)

If you were recruiting graduates right now, where would you look?

Sources:

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php

http://www.ucas.com/students/ucas_tariff/tarifftables/

http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/lbs/_courses/undergraduate/tourism_management/default.asp

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php?AC_sub=Mechanical+Engineering&x=30&y=7&sub=43

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php?AC_sub=Accounting+and+Finance&x=34&y=13&sub=0

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php?AC_sub=Hospitality%3B+Leisure%3B+Sport%3B+Recreation+and+Tourism&x=41&y=7&sub=34

[Christina]

Come to the US we have a buttload of schools, and I have yet to see people getting turned away because they are full, just have good scores!

This recession is one of the main reasons why I am happy to be moving on to get my Masters! Unfortunately a BA doesn't get you very far anymore. Your best bet is to keep going until you have your doctorate in something!

Here in the US if you pay on your loans and work in public service for ten years, your loan balance gets wiped clean. So go as far in your education as you can!

Take this time to find what you REALLY want to do with your future and do it!

[Law Graduate 2009]

Sorry Sarah, but what do you expect when you go to a mediocre university like University of Lincoln and your degree is what most employers would regard as "Mickey Mouse-esque".

I study LLB Law at a Top 10 university and have secured a training contract with a Magic Circle law firm for when I graduate this year.

Has it been easy for me to get a job? Well for starters I didn't choose an easy course. I have to work hard. Very hard. I am living on 2-3 hours sleep a day at the moment on the run up to finals. When I am not sleeping, eating or at the gym, I am studying. You simply get back what you put in.

I have worked to enhance my CV over the last 3 years, with work experience placements and an impressive array of charity work, not to mention self-taught language skills.

Whether it was a boom or a recession I would still be employable and wouldn't be struggling to get a graduate level job.

You're suggestion for accountacy and enginnering positions to be see more "modest" salaries is a wholly fallible assertion. These student studied proper degree and would have had to sacrifice a lot more than you have. Their salaries are a reflection of this.

Furthermore, what positions would you want these firms to create for you. Receptionist? Essentially your skill set and academics do not fit into the demands of large firms.

Sarah, you have no one to blame but yourself. So please get a grip, pull yourself together and be realistic. Did you seriously think this would end any differently?

[William Shaw]

Sadly, some of your thoughts on corporate strategy make me question the credibility of your business degree.

The UK is now awash with graduates, many from new universities with degrees that simply lack academic and intellectual rigour. I have a top-rated degree from a prestigious university and even today critically question the value of my degree against the debt incurred in its acquisition.

My advice to young people is really critically evaluate the cost-benefit of the degree, explore new and innovative routes into workplaces and professions and if university remains the appropriate avenue, moderate your earning expectations in years 1 to 5 post-graduation.

[MacK]

Oh dear! What a foolish posting, suggesting that engineering graduates take a pay cut so that she can be hired. If Sarah did not expect to be savaged here for that fairly witless statement, she really needs to learn a lot, especially about business economics.

That said, Law Graduate 2009 -- speaking as a scientist and reasonably successful international lawyer too, I think you need to pinch yourself. First, the Magic Circle are cutting jobs left and right. Second, as a trainee, you will not be received with open arms, especially as a legal trainee with only a law degree; we favour trainees with cross specialties in sciences or other subjects - indeed Sarah with a decent law degree on top would be a better candidate than you. Oh and by the way, 'smug' is very unattractive and will get you slated in week 1 at whatever firm gave you the contract, so I would work on your personality over the summer.

A core problem with Universities in rich countries is that for many students it is a 3-year deferment of adulthood. Too many subjects are fairly empty of real content - easy courses designed to give the key to the middle class job middle class BA or BSc (and a lot of BSc's involve dubious sciences (Legal Science?!)) Western countries are de-skilling as students capable (at least had their secondary level education covered the prerequisites) of studying 'harder' subjects, with substantial science, engineerings or math components, and real language skills study the likes of 'Media Studies.'

There is another reason for this -- hard science and engineering are expensive subjects to teach. Because of laboratories, small class sizes and high class hours, these students typically cost 5-6 times as much to educate as the cheaper arts and law students (yes law is really cheap to teach!) Moreover, science and engineering programs are slow to expand. The truth is not that 50% or more of UK secondary students should be going to University, but that most of this 50% should be doing tough technical subjects. However, this is a very expensive choice in the short term for the UK, and so governments have chosen not to make that investment.

[Tom]

I feel rather sorry for Sarah and many in her situation.

However, the truth- highlighted in a slightly more cruel fashion by some other posters- is that there never have been and never will be enough graduate level jobs for the ever increasing mass of completely average students which we are producing.

I am in the final year of a business degree at a top 10 uni and I received 2 graduate job offers (I also have placement experience).

Again, not blowing my trumpet, but If i'd have got the sort of A Level grades required only to enter an institution with such a poor reputation as Lincoln then there's no way I would have gone as I knew I wouldn't stand out academically. Far better to work your way up in the workplace from 18.

I feel an amount of sympathy for many in Sarah's situation because I know first hand that the message that the government sends out is very pro uni and we are storing up massive problems.

My opinion is this:

If you don't get 'good' A Level grades (ie something like at least 3 Bs, arguably better), then don't con yourself that going to uni is going to be an advantage in the workplace as your degree is likely to be considered alot less valuable than 3 years experience, even in a very junior role.

UNLESS you are doing something vocational, which amounts to a professional qualification such as nursing which is a gateway to that professional. NOT something vocational like theatre studies or journalism which even the industry itself doesn't seem to value.

Business is a tough one, as it is a bit of a mickey mouse course although I've done alright out of mine.

But... Mickey mouse course + crap uni = no graduate job, more often than not. And quite rightly so really. You should have done something more useful and suited to your capabilities. Not that I'm saying you're any better or worse than me or any of these engineers, not at all. But to seek to get a job through getting a degree is to do so through the academic route- and if that's going to be successful you need to be good academically.

Forgive me for generalising, but Lincoln undergraduates are generally NOT good academically.

So why go down that route thinking that they are on a level playing field? You have disadvantaged yourself when you could, if you are as driven as you say, have got to or past a graduate level position already in the workplace if you'd started at 18 and given uni a miss?

[Alex]

I graduated in September 2008 and walked straight in to a well paid engineering job. If only I'd realised that by working hard for a Mechanical Engineering degree from a decent University I was depriving poor Sarah Beard, doing a micky mouse degree at a second rate University of a job, I might've thought twice!

Clearly you have no idea about business, how do you propose a company recruits graduate engineers by offering uncompetitive salaries? You say in your own article that accountants and engineers are paid relatively well due to them being in high demand. Perhaps it's time to admit that your skills are not in demand?

Do yourself a favour by taking a respected Masters course or studying abroad to expand your skills. I'd also suggest that rather than writing angsty "oh poor me" articles to the newspaper that you concentrate on your finals.

[Lionel]

I think the Times should be a bit ashamed of themselves for letting Sarah set herself up for a drubbing like this.

[Paul]

As someone who graduated nearly ten years ago from Derby University - arguably percieved as one of the most Mickey Mouse universities of all - I have considerable empathy with Miss Beard.

The comments from my fellow readers demonstrate exactly the kind of attitudes I encountered as I was looking for employement.

I subsequently eschewed employers graduate schemes and "milk rounds" and instead took a very lowly paid position at the very bottom of my profession following a very sensible face-to-face interview at which I could demostrate my personal skills as well as my academic ability.

Ten years on I'm now the head of finance for a division of a large UK plc and it still surprises me the number of graduates who attend interviews for positions within my department and believe that it is their education at an elite university which marks them out as exceptional.

Many of todays graduates from these so called elite establishments appear to have been brainwashed that their degree certificate somehow gives them the keys to the door. What many fail to realise is that managers, like myself, who recruit their own staff are looking for well rounded individuals, with a genuine real world understanding who will fit into an organisation and can be coached and developed.

I wish Sarah the very best of luck and I know that if she looks in the right places she will find the right place to start her career.

[Huge]

Business and Tourism? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[pete best]

It is like all ideas from Government, they never take into account all of the facts and it juts feels so right it cannot be wrong. What parent would not be proud of their child getting a degree from (hell knows where) as they themselves do not necessarily understand the nature of higher education regardless of the debts a student is likely to run up at any university.

Lets face it all, 45% of 18 year olds going to University with only 10-20% achieving good A level results is just the whole problem with the University system today. The government fails to undertand the issue of the human mind for the old bell shaped curve and the nature of intelligence. Intelligence is not common, it is rarer than everyone seems to think. The brilliant make up 5% of each and every academic year and it probably cannot be any bigger, the average C graders make up around 50% of the year and the lesser minds even a decent percentage. If University is now for the great, the not so great and even less than that then its time to take stock of the system itself.

I am sure that Sarah was never informed of any of this, at 21 years of age what do you know of the world, not much, lets be honest. It is not her fault one iota now is it but all down to the failings of the system and it will be your parents who might have to look after you and encourage you to do something else on top of your first degree unless you are prepared to bow very low around the altar of work in the year of our lord 2009 where jobs are rare and millions are looking for anything.

Think about your future Sarah in earnest and try and find out about the world of work or see if a masters degree is available for you somewhere.

[Christopher Stevens]

As tempting as it is to do so, I will not add to the nasty, but mostly fair comments above with derision.

Business degrees are utterly worthless, I did Chinese studies, it was fun, worthwhile and reading ancient philosophy for four years and learning how to research is far more useful that accounting and reading business texts. My best employee does not have a degree, the most useless I ever hired had a business degree from a top university.

The government has told us a lie. Going to university does not make you instantly employable and becoming a manager with a business degree is very unlikely to make you happy.

Sarah, go and do something with the next few years of your life. Work as a tour guide in Bhutan, learn a new language, start at the bottom in a good hotel and work your way up. In fact, do anything except apply for dull jobs with dull corporations. You will be far richer in the long term for the real, experience.

[David James]

It makes me very angry when engineering ( and accountency ) are considered to be just another degree : they are not. They are professions, just like law or medicine, and the point of the degree is to train you in that profession that is why it is demanding and there is not enough graduates every year.
Bluntly if you have not done an engineering degree, or a very close BSc, your last engineering related education was possibly your GCSE in Maths! ie you are six years away from the minimum requirements of an graduate engineering position.

ps with 2 degress and ten years experience I am currently an unemployed engineer seeking work. Its tough but its a downturn and could last some time.

[muppet]

Law Graduate 2009: are you not bothering with the Legal Practice Course, then? Only, unless things have changed in the six years since I qualified, that is still a prerequisite. You should also bear in mind that your undergraduate degree will need to be backed up by very good grades on the LPC, or whatever post-graduate course your Magic Circle firm is currently enrolling trainees on to. You still have another three years to go before you qualify, and ours is not an industry that is immune to redundancies whenever there is a recession. Oh, and please, do try not to promulgate the idea that all lawyers are the scum of the Earth by sneering at those of us who didn't attend top ten universities, and those who chose subjects not seen as quite so intellectually rigorous or demanding as law or the hard sciences. My LlB from Staffs Uni has never stopped me from getting a job, or from getting into a very well-regarded LPC provider, alongside folk from top ten universities. Remember: pride comes before a fall!

[MacK]

I have to disagree with many of the comments here. First, Pete Best, there is no particular reason why 5% of graduates should be valuable, other than a refusal to provide good secondary level education, and a broader based education than the A level. Indeed, part of the problem with the UK's education system is that it starts hot-housing kids for University at age 15-16, streaming after GCSE for particular university courses. It would be far better to extend university courses to 4 years for most students, 5 years for medicine, covering the second half of A-level subjects in the second year of University. The result would be more 18 year olds with the math and science skills to study Science and Engineering in university. As the situation stands, a narrow set of A-level subjects largely dictate what UK students can study at university. Finland and Korea do not have populations that are genetically more intelligent than the UK, yet they produce a high number of students with skills in the upper quintile of skills world wide -- why is this -- a true commitment to real education.

As for business degrees, I find their boom remarkable, and I constantly surprised by the candidates with a BA in business and an MBA! The MBA was not devised as a 'masters' degree, it was a 'backfilling' degree for engineers, scientists and others to teach them the accounting, management and other subjects they need to go into management. I really do not see the point of holding purely business degrees - it equips someone to manage things they do not actually understand.

As for accounting - in my personal opinion the UK's biggest problem is that its companies are largely managed by accountants - every CFO expects to be the lead candidate for CEO. Indeed such accountants are frequently also not people with degrees in accounting, but Oxbridge refugees with degrees in say History of Art, who retrained as accountants when the job market looked tough. UK companies have been run into the ground by the myopic views of accountants, who generally think that the way to grow is to cost cut, who regard innovation as a high risk, and skilled employees as simple cost centers. More successful economies have companies that are very led by people with the specific technical skills that the company uses (or to put it another way, would an accountant accept a non-accountant as head of an accounting firm, or a lawyer a non-lawyer?)

One final feature that has always surprised me about many UK companies, and that is the officers and the men mentality one often sees, the way in which an executive group of Oxbridge and other highly rated university graduates, often in the 'finance' function are treated as compared to other employees -- and this is from someone who found himself in the 'officer' group.

[FM]

I assume that punctuation is not on the curriculum at Lincoln? If this piece of writing were handed in by one of my students, my red pen would be thoroughly exercised! I'd add 'proof-reader' and 'copy editor' to the list of roles that won't be open to you.

[Ed]

Funny, when i graduated a year ago Engineering certainly wasn't offering the highest salaries, it was business, despite engineers being in high demand. What goes around comes around, you're unlucky to graduate a year too late, but i suspect if you graduated last year you would have happily taken a well paid job without a thought for taking a pay cut to allow poor engineers to get more!

As for paying Engineers less so they can take on other graduates, what do you propose these other graduates are going to do? They certainly couldn't do any engineering, which is presumably why engineers are being hired in the first place!

[jamshid]

getting a job just does not depend on your university qualification although that helps.

My advice to graduates this year is:

Write a good C.V. check it with a friend or some one sensible.
Apply to as many jobs as possible.
While waiting do any job available via agency or looking around your area where you live.

Do ignore all these caustic commnets.

Good Luck.

[Peter Grillet]

I do not understand why all of the comments seem to be blaming Sarah and the Government...

Sarah is not to blame for her lack of understanding of the real world because she has not had the opportunity to experiencing it. She will have spent almost every year of her life since the age of four in some form of an educational institution (or whatever it should be called). Meaning that she would have been surrounded by people who have invested interest in Schools, Colleges and Universities being considered to be useful. i.e - Teachers need to be considered to be providing something of value in order to have a job and fellow pupils need to think they are gaining something of value or they will leave. In addition i am sure that almost every "Adult" who she came into contact with outside of education will have promoted it too.

The Government are not solely to blame either as they have only offered what we have requested. Individuals are not forced into education by the government (after the age of 16, i believe) they are forced by their parents, and in some cases friends and family, who often don't have much understanding of what it takes to be successful themselves.

Sarah,

If you truly wish to be successful you need to do the following...

Decide on what you want to spend the majority of your future doing (it should be something that you enjoy), once you have decided on what you want to do ensure that you can provide something of benefit that most people can't within your chose field. Find a route into the chosen role that most of your competition will not consider taking so you can be an individual, not part of the crowd (Joining a "Graduate Scheme" is not your only option, google "Hidden Jobs Market"), and most importantly WORK HARDER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

It is stupid to expect that you will gain an advantage over your competition by copying what they do.

(It might also be worth looking into the work of Napoleon Hill)

I wish you all the best.

[Law Graduate 2009]

Muppet: Sorry I had hoped those in the know would have used a bit of common sense and realised I would be taking the LPC in September. Instead of asking me stupid questions.

Actually I only need to get a pass in my LPC modules. I rank Top 5 in my year at LSE. It will not be a problem.

Thank you for your kind and condescending words, but I am well aware of the current round of redundancies in the legal sector. It appears even the magic circle isn't safe.

Trainees are cheap labour. The only threat to us is deferral. Well for those of us fortunate enough to be at big city firms. I'm not quite sure about the situation with high street firms. Sorry!

Staffs Uni. Oh. Sorry is that an ex-poly?

[Amy]

My comment is in support of Law Graduate's initial comment. The vast majority of jobs out there do not NEED someone with a degree to undertake the role. The Government's mission to have at least 50 % of young people receiving higher education is to blame. Courses such as 'Business and Tourism' at lower standard (by which I mean outside the top 10) Universities is to cater for this mission. Now with such degree courses available to everyone it's little wonder that employers ask for a degree when an apprenticeship (the past norm) would be far more appropraite. People, such as Sarah, should consider their employability compared to students of the top universities in traditional and respected subjects, before entering these 'Mickey-Mouse' subjects.

[MacK]

Law Graduate 2009 - I am afraid you have a very limited future in the legal profession. First, legal trainees are not as you say 'cheap labour' for law firms, rather they are very expensive labour. This is in part because for the first year or two they are pretty useless. The bigger reason is that most clients know this and increasingly are unwilling to pay for them. Finally, the vanity and arrogance you display would ensure that I would dump you immediately.

Let me put it another way - who do you think clients are? Law graduates who missed Oxbridge, but are carried away with graduating from the LSE? Sorry, most of them are people with the very training you are currently deriding, and most pick up fast on a lack of respect - Sarah i very much the sort of person who may end up deciding what law firm gets retained in say 15-20 years, or even 10.

I will be very blunt - the best hires in law are not 'muppets' who did law at the LSE and are totally impressed with themselves - but know nothing about anything else, but people who did degrees in other subjects, a diploma in law and then the LPC. You will find out how much more popular these people are when you arrive in a law-firm.

Meanwhile, I would continue to post under a pseudonym - since your Magic Circle firm might yet withdraw its offer - I would if I read such vainglorious and obnoxious posturing.

You can describe me as a 'disgusted at you law partner.'

[Bob]

Law Graduate 2009 - sorry I need to shout that again LAW GRADUATE 2009, shouldn't you be studying? There are some basics to be getting on with such as the difference between 'you're' and 'your'.

What a hideous individual you really are. I do hope the web works its magic and recruiters at the 'Magic Circle' firms have another look at their hires - I'm sure top 5 at LSE will be hidden somewhere under a bushel on your application.

[Andre.T]

George W Bush had degrees from Yale and Harvard....I work in investment banking, a large number of recruits have highly acclaimed degrees but no two brain cells that function - although they have "connections" and fit the stereotype that HR is looks for.

Some of the best bankers, and prof. analysts have very average degrees, takes a lot of luck (forget hard work, that goes without saying) to get a shot at such professions.

[Juma]

Sarah Beard is utterly nonsensically ( don't know if that's a word), completely (ecc ecc) naive, childish, unrealistic ecc ecc.
Oh so life isn't all honey and milk? well, blimey!
And the idea that the state should create jobs never works......

just send your cv out! Hotels, abroad, secretarial agencies....

you'll find something. And when you have, in a year's time, you'll find something better!!!!

[Sofi]

A Business and Tourism degree from Lincoln? bwhahahahahah!!!!
"Engineering and accounting is paid more than poor poor us" bwahahaha!!!
"I don't want to sound my trumpet"????

well you should. no one else will do it for you, esp inm dire times with your crap credentials.

Get yourself a job as a receptionist in a hotel in London
Of course you need to speak at least one foreign language fluently, and preferably one more pretty fluently but I gather that a degree does that for you? NO??????

Really??? Employers pick the best they can find???

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW.

Reality is really bad when daddy's money's run out.....

Just look elsewhere for a job!

Who says that after two years as a receptionist in a hotel you won't find a secure position as a secretary? Or as a revenue clerk?

Just lower your standards to the market and your degree.

[Juma]

Just wanted to add...... You haven't even found a summer job in a hotel or restaurant?
You really need to get moving....

[Mark Preston]

Dear ED,
I'm no English scholar, but it appears to me that you a being a little unkind to Sarah from Lincoln University. The majority of the article is in quotations, which I take to mean that Sarah is being quoted and therefore cannot be held responsible for grammatical errors in the text.

[Helene]

I really was hoping for an answer to my question - have Durham graduates somehow fallen out of favour because Durham is not part of the Russell group? Does anyone have an opinion on this? In a sense it's not my problem any more as a I graduated a long time ago and then did a PhD elsewhere, but I'm just curious. Thanks!

[Charles Ryan]

Sarah: The comment from Christopher Stevens is right on the money... find a way to get away.

[Admiral Ackbar]

These comments have raised some interesting issues.

Sarah, do you speak any languages to a decent standard?

While you may struggle to find a job in the current climate in the UK, a job in tourism - say, working for a hotel chain abroad (e.g. French Novotel) - might be more attainable.

This is for the following reasons:

Firstly, foreign recruiters won't be as dismissive of your degree from Lincoln as they won't know as much about UK university rakings. A UK degree (regardless who gives it)bizarrely still carries a lot of weight abroad

Secondly, as english is the world's lingua franca, as a fluent english speaker, you will be more attractive to these recruiters (assuming your skills/experience is as good as you make out)

[Sean]

Business and tourism from Lincoln? Engineers and accountants to take a pay cut? Arrogant graduate lawyers from LSE?

What's the world coming to?

[Admiral Ackbar]

I forgot to add -

While we in the UK whinge about EU graduates coming over and taking our jobs, has it never occured to UK graduates that they are just as entitled to do the same.

UK graduates - take advantage of EU law and go find a job abroad

[Alia]

I think most people here are forgetting that Sarah's choice of course and university may not have been her decision entirely. I am just about to begin university after a much needed gap year and it is only because my mother is a teacher that I am not going to one of the many undersubscribed, 'up and coming' universities such as lincoln. I attended a private school which made sure I got all the grades needed but which tried to persuade me to go to universities such as chichester and bournemouth to study courses such as business and cruise management! No one tells you what the job market is like they just dress up the course with fun subjects and dreamlike job prospects. Luckily I have decided to attend Queen Mary's of London to pursue English but even then I know how difficult a career will be even with a solid degree. What's the point in studying something you hate just so you can secure a job? That's not what university is about.

[Amy]

Alia - anyone who deserves for their degree to be recognised and respected has the ability to research for themselves what degree course to undertake. Anyone blindly following their school's advice is not showing enough ability or promise to enter an academic institution.

[Juma]

Well Alia, that's just the point: there is no point in studying something useless you hate at a C grade uni.

If you really want to work in the hospitality industry ( with all it's positive and negative sides), then pick a tourism degree and then work in tourism. Or don't do the degree, as you wish. The difference in salary is minimal, unless you're about to inherit a hotel near Picadilly Circus.

Don't pick a tourism degree if you think it's the easiest way to a really posh desk job with a huge sum of money coming in every month.

And yes, Sarah's choices might have been restricted by several different factors. Most peoples' choces are.

So that's what "being a grown up" means??? gasp????

And you're one lucky young lady to be able to study what you want and where you want, courtesy your mother's job and probably your own hard work.

[Alia]

Amy - The decisions you have to make regarding which career you want to go into and which subjects you have to study need to be done at a very young age, it's ridiculous to expect a 16 year old not to follow the guidance of their teachers.

And Juma - I am not excusing the fact that Sarah is complaining over nothing, unless you're doing an incredibly difficult or sought after degree you can't expect to find a job straight away or be paid a huge amount. But still, these specialist degrees have been created for a reason and if you want to go into tourism I can guarantee most schools/colleges will tell you to do a degree in it, the most common argument being 'people with degrees earn on adverage 15% more than those without'.

All I can advise Sarah is to expand her education and experience, I know from the research I did on business degrees that the degree simply teaches you the basics of the industry, it does not provide you with a career.

[muppet]

Mack: I take my hat off to you! Or would, were I wearing one.

LSG 2009: Staffs Uni's law school is pretty well rated, actually. And, funnily enough, employers have always commented that academically my grades are very strong. Certainly I've never had a problem finding work.

One point I do think I should make: what is wrong with working for a High Street firm, exactly? I trained as a commercial lawyer with a large utility company, and was so thoroughly unexcited by it that I CHOSE on qualification to start again from scratch and work for a High Street firm doing criminal law.

From there, I got into family law, combining the two for a time, before specialising in family with an emphasis on care proceedings.

You will probably earn more than I ever did just as a trainee in your Magic Circle firm. Money doesn't give you anywhere near the satisfaction that actually making a difference in someone's life can, though.

I love my profession, absolutely adore it - except for the admin and all the paperwork, which in Magic Circle firms I suppose you won't have to trouble yourself with.

What matters out here in the real world is not your educational background, but whether you can actually do the job.

I'd been out in the real world for a good few years before going back to university, and that, too, stood me in good stead at interview.

Right now, I'm living overseas, learning a new language and planning on retraining in law at a university here. I'm very happy with the choices that I made.

I do wish you well in your career; my three housemates who were studying for the CPE while I was taking the LPC were from Cambridge and St Andrews. Only one of them is still in the profession, and they all went to Magic Circle firms...

Sarah: hope you find a job, whether it's in your chosen area or not.

[Amy]

Alia - I'm aware the choices must be made at 16 since I too made those choices. I asked for advice from my teachers and parents but ultimately made the choice to apply to Cambridge and pursue a scientifc career in academia myself based on many different sources myself. For example there is an abundance of literature produced by every University about its courses and subsequent career prospects. Obviously these are biased which is why independent newspapers, such as the Times, also produce a supplement - ideal for 16 years olds making these choices! Had I not achieved at least 8 As at GCSE and 3 Bs at A-level (I actually got 12 A*s and 6 As) I would have seriously considered if university was the place for me.

[Juma]

"the most common argument being 'people with degrees earn on adverage 15% more than those without"

This is not something I see in my work, which is head administrator in a 3 stars hotel with 50 rooms.

I have a 3 year degree from a swiss hosp ind college, which included industry training ( 18 months of intensive accelerated studying and 18 months of very hard work including getting up at 4 am to pastoerize (sp??) milk)

I've never been out of work since.
After 14 years in the industry there is no difference in salary between myself and other collegues with a traditional degree.

Also, working while studying means I'm debt free. ( no bank of mum and dad).

What I'm saying is: There are alternatives to a traditional degree, and some are better than the degree!

As for Sarah: go abroad for a year? There are 6 months working green cards ( post graduate) for the US, for example. Or if Sarah's langauge skills are lacking, do a year in Germany or France as a au pair to wait for the economic crisis to pass......

[arctanck]

Engineering jobs are paid okay, but are not getting as much respects in the UK than in other countries, say US or Germany, as can be seen in what Sarah wrote. British are not aspired to create, make or design things any more. Instead young people choose to study subjects like business and tourism, and has the cheek to expect engineers to make way for them in a fiercely competed globalised market. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect everyone to start studying technical subjects, but at least show respect to those who choose to work in the high skilled sector. You studied "business" yet do not seem to know about cost, competitiveness, recession etc, and expect businesses to run like a welfare state, i.e. to try and keep as many people employed as possible. I think you really need to take a long hard look at what is it that you want to do and then try very hard to do something along that line, whether poorly paid or not paid at all, as volunteers!

[Shaniqua]

Retrain as a psychiatrist?

If you have the money and nouse to spend 5/6 years studying for a medical degree, followed a another 2/3 years' postgraduate eduction...

[Will]

This article was not exactly a fantastic advertisement for the author. She has completely misunderstood basic principles of business. Why on earth would a large law/accountancy firm take on less graduates or graduates on smaller salaries because other industries are suffering? And how exactly would this free up hypothetical money enabling her to get a job in a completely unrelated industry?

It appears Blair's higher education expansion has resulted in exactly what everyone predicted it would; thousands of graduates from third-rate "universities" clutching pointless degrees. These graduates now have am over-inflated sense of entitlement and career expectations that bear no relation to their prospects.

I feel sorry for them as the Government has sold them an impossible dream and they would have been best served simply getting a job 3 years ago; however, I do think that these students should have researched their career prospects post-degree. Any small amount of research would have told the author that a Business and Tourism degree from the University of Lincoln wasn't exactly going to get her very far even before the recession!

[Kess]

I won't comment on the lack of vacancies suiting Sarah's choice of degree - others have done it already - but it is gratifying to hear there is a strong demand for engineering graduates. Our country now has a dire shortage of engineers thanks to the government's inane and short-sighted focus on the financial/banking/service sectors in recent years.

[JJ]

Those disparaging all arts degrees as either easy or useless or both show their ignorance. Try doing a classics degree, which will probably, nowadays, involve learning from scratch at university at least Greek if not Latin as well, or an oriental language, which in most cases will also need to be started from scratch at university. Then tell me if it was easy. Clue - it isn't. It's extremely intellectually demanding, and requires a huge amount of very hard work and many and varied skills. If an employer wants someone who is literate, intelligent, hardworking and educated, in the older sense of the word, then go for a classics or Chinese graduate.

[andrew g]

"I'll never forget the Cambridge University graduate (in Archaeology & Anthropology) who was taking orders in Pizza Hut."

I am a Cambridge University graduate (in Philosophy) and I too worked at Pizza Hut one summer, in the kitchens. I also worked in Andy's Records for a while. After graduating into the 1992 recession, I got a variety of temporary jobs - picking music orders at a CD distribution factory, assisting in a building society and a typing job for a company that ran various music fan clubs.

In each of these menial roles, I worked to the best of my abilities. So, in the end, about six months after graduating, I landed a job with one of the big accounting firms.

It's easy to be snippy about the jobs on offer, but it's best to take the best you can get. And, in return, to give the best you can give. Someone, eventually, will notice.

[Andrew]

How about joining the Armed Forces, either full time or in the Reserves, and putting someting back into your community whilst learning some real skills? I have an Arts degree (archaeology) but have worked my way up in business via a stint in teaching. I now am a senior financial services professional. And also I did a recent tour of Afghanistan as a called-up Reservist. Worth considering...

[Simon R]

Yeah. Do as Andrew says below and join the army. Your scowl/pout is reminiscent of Goldie Hawn's in the Private Benjamin poster.

[Law student]

Law Grad 2009 said:Sorry Sarah, but what do you expect when you go to a mediocre university like University of Lincoln and your degree is what most employers would regard as "Mickey Mouse-esque".

I study LLB Law at a Top 10 university and have secured a training contract with a Magic Circle law firm for when I graduate this year.

Has it been easy for me to get a job? Well for starters I didn't choose an easy course. I have to work hard. Very hard. I am living on 2-3 hours sleep a day at the moment on the run up to finals. When I am not sleeping, eating or at the gym, I am studying. You simply get back what you put in.

I have worked to enhance my CV over the last 3 years, with work experience placements and an impressive array of charity work, not to mention self-taught language skills.

Whether it was a boom or a recession I would still be employable and wouldn't be struggling to get a graduate level job.

You're suggestion for accountacy and enginnering positions to be see more "modest" salaries is a wholly fallible assertion. These student studied proper degree and would have had to sacrifice a lot more than you have. Their salaries are a reflection of this.

Furthermore, what positions would you want these firms to create for you. Receptionist? Essentially your skill set and academics do not fit into the demands of large firms.

Sarah, you have no one to blame but yourself. So please get a grip, pull yourself together and be realistic. Did you seriously think ect.

I feel I must come to the defence of my fraternity. There is nothing hurtful, inaccurate or arrogant in the above post, which is more than can be said of many of the comments on this blog. There is a whiff of sour grapes around those who have attacked Law Grad 09, possibly due to jealousy of his success at an excellent school and his obtaining a good job. I agree with what he says; law students to get ahead (and not just law students, engineers, medicine and maths students also spring to mind) must work extremely hard. I write this on a ‘concentration break’ from study in my college library while eating my ‘dinner’(a roll). I do not seek pity or a clap on the back, I am just doing what is required to get a first and thus improve my chances in the jobs market. I am afraid that Law Grad is correct in saying Sarah’s University or her chosen area of study is unlikely to catch the eye of many employers. There are too many universities and too many courses. I am at an unfashionable university but my hard work means I have offers to study in the ‘Golden Triangle’ universities in London next year for an LLM, (including the LSE Law Grad 09, hope its fun!!!) and an internship with a top law firm. Not boasts- I am simply pointing out that hard working people, studying good solid courses, who do their best to better themselves will almost always do well. I think that is what Law Grad 09 was saying too.

[Becky]

Sarah I'd just like to point out that you need to be more realistic. Why should the goverment hand you a job straight out of Uni?
Get your head in the real world.
My degree is a Drama BA which I knew when i took it wasn't going to open a lot of doors to me when I graduated, so in my third year i thought realisticly about things and what i could do with my degree and what i would want to do with. I then trained as a teacher, which can be hard work as well as extremly rewarding, and now two years later I'm a head of department, which is not an easy thing to achieve at 24. If your 'plan' isn't working out for you re-think it don't moan about it!

[Dave]

Good to see lawyer arrogance hasn't disappeared in the recession!

I have some comments in response to the idea of all is needed is a good degree from a good university and a good CV.

I have a masters from Oxford (the proper one) and a 2:1, a distinction MSc (Leeds) and a PhD (Southampton), interspersed with 3 separate internships including 3 months working in America and several examples of working as a team.

I wish to follow a career in the environmental sector. Problem - every firm I have had contact with, including those I have worked for, have laid off staff. There is very little chance at present to get a position. Furthermore, the staff made redundant will have greater experience than I do if the job opportunities do arise.

I have had several interviews over the last 6 months only to be told that actually they have had to stop recruiting and this includes the public sector. I have the skills that I will be able to carry on in academia until things improve. But I think those who have posted on this site must realise the economic situation is such that people from the so called good universities are also struggling.

Perhaps I should sue Mr Brown for making a mess of the economy at least that will mean the lawyers will have jobs and the accountants they employ.

[amc]

It all depends on the career choice. But I think Sarah is right, we were all sold this 'impossible dream' before university - I studied English and Drama at a good red brick (solid degree?)and have worked FOR FREE for the last 10 months in publishing whilst supporting myself with another job at the same time.

I met a woman who was doing the same thing after having just completed a phd at Trinity and she too did not have a job and was working for free (I'm sure she felt mortified - a few steps down from lecturing don't you think?) - it has become apparent that the only way to get a job in this industry is if you know somebody in the business or indeed have a degree from oxford/cambridge. There is nothing the government can do without getting the next batch of graduates into an even bigger mess.
What I have learned from my exhausting 80 hour week lifestyle (earning, I worked out, the equivalent of £2 an hour) with no job to show at the end is that it is as simple as this: it is just a bad time. Don't get me wrong, I am as diheartened as ever other graduate and feel like a complete failure - but realise it can be something as small as not being in the right place at the right time, or not trying that little bit harder to get a 1st instead of a 2.1.

These internships exist. You can write to anybody asking to work for free - as long as you have half a brain and a good attitude then you will be fine. Don't rely on the goverment to get you them. We're so used to expecting labour to do everything for us - when they can't, we go ballistic.

Read the news. Look around you. Things could be a lot worse. You provide your own fate - it is ignorant to think that a bunch of stuffy men in suits are going to do it for you.

[Emma]

I'm sorry, Sarah, but what job exactly do you propose an engineering or accountancy firm create for you? I work in engineering and we do..shock..engineering! We also employ HR staff (qualified in HR at postgraduate level), quantity surveyors (3-4 yrs undergraduate, 2 years to chartership and all have MSc's to boot) and project managers (engineers or QS's, years of experience and post grad).

I have a first degree in English and philosopy for Trinity College Dublin and after many happy but badly paid years in publishing I went back to University at 34 to do this. I wouldn't say my engineering degree was harder than my arts degree (more like the other way around) but it pays better! Retrain!