What's the point of learning Latin and Greek at school (a pupil asks)?

A few weeks ago I posted a Classical Education quiz, which seemed to be enjoyed by many. The hook was a new book by Caroline McTaggart, a great classics enthusiast.

But Fleur - who's a school pupil - has contacted me to ask whether it really is worth studying Latin, particularly, she says, as you'll "never use it."

"At school, I study Latin, and I ask myself every year why on earth I put myself through all the hard work and stress" she writes. "So my question is: would you carry on even though it brings you nothing in the end (except knowledge)?"
 
It's a fine question, not just about classics, but about so many things, which bring you "only" knowledge. I love to find out about new things, so knowledge is probably good enough for me. But when you're studying lots of different subjects and trying to work out what's the most useful, then it takes on a different slant. I studied Latin at school, and, despite being told how useful it would be to me, I can't say I've found that to be true. How about you?

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Comments

[Amy]

I think Fleur's comment that it "brings you nothing (only knowledge)" shows a big flaw either within her or the schooling system. Education isn't just about giving you practical skills, it's about educating you about life.

Maths after the age of 13 provides you with little practical information, just knowledge. Likewise, the deep analysis of literature is not going to help most people in their later life, on a purely practical scale. Science- the only "practical" thing I learned was how to wire a plug. And even that's not necessary these days. Yet we would never dream of scrapping maths, English or science from the curriculum. So why is Latin any different?

I studied Latin to GCSE level, and I study French and Italian at university. I rarely have to look new vocabulary up when I meet it, because I know the Latin roots and can work it out myself. This makes it stick better in my head, rather than having to learn it from a list. Likewise when reading academic books in English, I rarely need to use the dictionary. My friends who never studied Latin often wonder how my vocabulary is so good. Well, I'd put it all down to Latin.

And that's just the language side. The cultural dimensions are just as relevant. They bring a greater understanding and enjoyment of modern literature. Modern novels become so much more interesting to the casual reader when you understand the references to ancient mythology. And, of course, if you're taking literature courses in English, then Greek and Roman literature are the inspirations behind a lot of symbolism and allegory in our most famous literature.

[oneopinionatedmother]

if you're interested in language and literature, then Latin is a brilliant addition to your field of knowledge. Not just (non solam..) the logical and grammatical structure of the language itself, or indeed the use as a key to understanding spanish, italian and french, but also (sed etiam) a key to the thoughts of a civilisation divorced from ours by two thousand years of history. There is no true understanding of Latin poetry without studying the real language.

[beth]

one of the most useful classes i ever took was Latin - and i had the chance to take it both in high school and in third grade. the third grade lessons focused on pieces of Latin, ones that are used as building blocks for other words - and languages. it was a great gift, like getting the keys to the kingdom, because with that knowledge, i could decipher new (English) words that i ran across in my reading.

Latin is immensely useful; hopefully, Fleur will reconsider her opinion. building a tool box of skills may seem like "only" knowledge, but those tools will serve you well.

[Jon]

A good knowledge of Latin is really useful because it immediately shows everyone that your parents could afford to educate you privately. This means that you'll easily get a good job at somewhere like The Times or the BBC and won't have to work in a call centre.

[Whimsey]

If you've done Latin at school it shows you are clever. Then you can mention it in passing throughout your life, and people will always realise you are clever.

People who have done Latin at school are like a special freemasonary. We all recognise each other and know just how clever we all are. Lovely feeling.

It's wonderfully intellectually snobbish to have done Latin, and makes you effortlessly superior to everyone else.

Plus, of course, you can watch Life of Brian and laugh knowingly at the scene of the soldier correcting Brian's graffiti. Think how sad and inferior everyone else is who can't understand why that scene is funny. Poor them.

[Eugene]

Think of Latin (and Greek) as weights to train your verbal and mental skills. When you see a boxer box, or a sprinter sprint, you don't see the weights, but they're there, giving him the edge.

[Enrico]

Think of Latin as the father of the languages and of Greek as the mother of thoughts. Where were you if you haden't these parents?
Even if you don't like them after having them met, if you didn't meet them your view on life is missing something.

I studied 8 years of Latin and 6 years of Greek in an humanistic gymnasium in Switzerland. Sometimes it was tough and boring, off course. But today I love the fact that a lot of things are not strangers to my thinking.
Latin and Greek are very practical for at least my understanding.

[oneopinionatedmother]

@jon.

erm..i learnt greek and latin at home...and my comprehensive school allowed me to take GCSE.

and I work in a call centre!

if you knew many classicists, you'd know they are (as a bunch) far far more passionate about their subject than they are about money.

[oneopinionatedmother]

@ Whimsey..

but the Greekists secretly know they are cleverer :P

[degreenurse]

vital for a headstart in medicine / nursing - you can suss out the meaning all those weird long names of diseases!

[Mary Beard]

Hi everyone: in answer to Sarah's post...

Let me try a few reasons (from Cambridge):

You learn Latin and Greek because they are difficult, challenging and give you access to most influential writing that the world has ever known (isnt every novel actually the Odyssey rewritten? what could be better than going to the fons et origo? was there ever a more cutting analysis of autocratic corruption than Tacitus'?)

You learn Latin and Greek because they teach you about how language works (that's different from saying that they help you learn French, Italian etc -- though overlaps with that)

You learn Latin and Greek because they are the only subjects at GSCE where you study literature in the original language (rather than learn how to order a pizza)

You learn Latin and Greek because they open up two cultures that are central to the whole of the western tradition. Not only Homer, but Virgil, Horace, Euripides, Sophocles etc etc lie at the heart of our culture -- and (like any literature) these are better studied in the original language.

And there are more reasons in my blog here:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2006/07/does_latin_trai.html#more

[Patrick Springer]

1-The Christian part of the Bible was written mostly in Greek and without the exact original words it is hardly possible to quote the words of the Bible accurately and not possible to understand what is realy said in the Bible (wether you agree with this content or not)
2-Germanic languages such as Englisch are partially based on, and heavily rely on understanding, Greek and Latin. If you do not know the past of elements in daily life your future is separating you from your narrowing possibilities.

The showing off to people, to searchs for merit on the outside, seems to me one good reason to not wanting to learn Latin and Greek so I do not endorse that particular argument.

[John]

Back in 1963, at the age of 11, I was obliged to learn Latin. Our schoolteacher justified this by declaring that a knowledge of Latin was a sign of "an educated man". I didn't believe him then and Latin is now even more irrelevant.

[Whimsey]

"You learn Latin and Greek because they are the only subjects at GSCE where you study literature in the original language (rather than learn how to order a pizza)"

Do you know, I'd never twigged that?! But yes, absolutely, now I come to think of it - and it makes me realise that there's clearly a screaming gap in the modern languages GCSE curriculum! If nothing else, everyone should at least do a poem, or a passage or two from a classic French/German/Spanish etc novel. (Memo to self - dig out my ancient Penguin Book of French Verse and find something easy for teenage son - my, I can hear his expressions of gratitude for my thoughtfullness already!)

As for Latin, I still have fond memories of being taught Catullus - not really very appropriate for ingenue l5 year old school girls, but I strongly suspect we were only given the 'safe' poems to read! (Still, could have been Ovid....!)

As for Catullus, good old 'Arrius, eh? World's first recorded chav.

(See what I mean about classicists being their own intellectually-posho freemasonary....)

[Whimsey]

"but the Greekists secretly know they are cleverer"

Indeed, chiz chiz, and a source of intense irritation to me, since I turned down the option to do Greek in favour of Geography. SO annoying in later years.

Still, at least I can say "tau" and "mu" instead of "taf" and "mi" - even if I only know them via science, not classical Greek. (ooh, scary, I'm really going out on a limb here, and may elicit a patronising put down from a classicist on the scent of a howler!)

[Christina]

Greek and Latin are part of the languages history. When studying those languages, you are not learning a foreign language, but you do exercise and improve your way of thinking, your mind by studying the structure, the grammar, the combination of words.

Moreover, through the original texts you get an idea of the history behind those great cultures.

Finally, education (and mostly secondary and higher education) is not supposed to give you practical skills but cultivate your mind and your talents, inspire your creativity, assist in our civic maturity. If someone wanted only practical skills, he could learn an apprenticeship.

[John Scott]

As with almost everything you learn at school - you study the subject to improve your skills. Knowledge is easy - almost any idiot can learn facts (just think of politicians parroting their particular brief for the day).

But learning to think in particular ways is much more difficult. I hardly ever use the modern language vocabulary I worked so hard on at school, but I use the grammar frequently, in understanding English, in reading those foreign languages and in learning new languages (or at least getting the gist). I rarely use mathematics directly, but the careful analysis of the component elements of a problem and rigorous step-by-step progress through it is useful in everything.

Latin and Greek provide a useful challenge in that regard - you are forced to learn a language without direct reference points. That compels you to think in the abstract and treat languages as all they really are, modes of communication. It's no accident that some companies recruit classics graduates to work with computers. Having learned one or two arbitrary communication systems, classicists are very good at learning programming language too - it is just another dead language to them! Then there's the more obvious instrumental argument that Western languages all owe some debt to the classical ones, and so classical languages provide a useful reference point when faced with a new language.

[Vivienne Rendall]

In the sixth form doing a Latin prose (translation from English into Latin ) was the most satisfying thing I did, it was such a joy to produce a piece that actually read like Latin. Being given an 'A' was hugely satisfying.

[Rachel]

As someone who studied Classics at 6th form and at University and managed to skillfully avoid doing anything more than one semester of Greek or Latin, I actually look back now and regret not having put more effort into studying the languages! In retrospect I have realised through my MA in archaeology how important it is to know these languages, if only to help us understand the basis for our own. French makes much more sense to me now that I can vuagly understand Verb conjugations, and I think maybe children should be taught Latin purely to help them understand the development of other languages from their root, maybe we might end up with a generation that are good at languages again!

[Whimsey]

"classicists are very good at learning programming language too - it is just another dead language to them!"

There's another advantage too. I don't know about Greek (chiz, see below), but Latin is a very concise language (apparently, the cheapest way to send telegrams used to be in Latin!), so Latinists can cut really tight code.

Incidentally, I wonder how other languages line up in terms of their concision(if concision isn't a word it ought to be)(that's a pun....)?

I know French is very un-concise. French sets a third longer than English, so a type-setter once told me. Is it the same for the other main romance languages? German, however, I would imagine, is pretty concise, more so than English.

Though how much is due to word formation and how much just due to verbosity I don't know (think of all those flowery French formalities, etc)

[Kim]

Whimsey, I have to correct you there - German is less concise than English. I know this only because I once had a job writing help screens for a computer system. Each piece of help text couldn't in theory be any longer than one screen, but even that wasn't allowed, because the text had to be translated into several different languages, some of which took up more space. I remember being told that German, in particular, took up 25% more space than the English.

[milena]

I studied Latin when I was at school and I felt the same as you do now. I used to think it was a waste of time...why me , wasting all that time studying a dead language?
Everyone said to me...it's good for you. You will improve your knowledge.
The truth is that it helped me to learn other launguages easily. I speak Spanish, French, Portuguese,Italian and English. I learn most of those languages after I finish with Latin lessons.
So... if you want to communicate with other people in different languages...carrry on with Latin!

[Manoj]

There is another related problem: the pressure on the education establishment to come up with good SLC results to show for the massive investment in education, especially primary education. In 2006, there were just 4,000 students who secured distinction (over 80 percent); this climbed to 7,498 in 2008 and to 11,304 this year — in keeping with the changes introduced in 2007. Again, this could either be interpreted negatively as discussed above or in a more favourable light (students feeling more comfortable with the syllabus, more objectivity in the questions).

[William]

Some of the positives for Latin suggested here just don't make a lot of sense:

"Latin helps you learn French, Italian, etc." Maybe, but surely it's even easier to learn one of those directly? And it doesn't help with Japanese or Chinese, which are arguably more important.

"Latin helps you learn computer languages" Rubbish. Computer languages are so grammatically simple, they are easy to learn - it's programming that's hard, not the language being used.

"Latin & Greek are difficult" well, so is maths, and I defy anyone to say Latin is more useful than maths. The computer you're using wasn't designed by Classical scholars.

"Doing Latin shows you're clever" No, it shows that your school is snobbish - which may be a benefit, but it isn't an educational benefit.

[Tommy K]

I did Latin for GCSE and A-levels over 10 years ago. I took the subject because I was good at it and I enjoyed it. I subsequently got good grades and was able to get into a good university. I now have a good degree (in a social science) and a good job - perhaps not exclusively down to learning Latin but I certainly enjoyed learning it a lot more than I would have Maths or Science.

[Liz]

"would you carry on even though it brings you nothing in the end (except knowledge)?"

surely that is the whole point?

[Whimsey]

Kim - so pleased to know that the Germans are not only bossier than us but more verbose as well!

:)

[Whimsey]

"Doing Latin shows you're clever" No, it shows that your school is snobbish - which may be a benefit, but it isn't an educational benefit.

*****

Oh dear. Looks like you didn't do Latin, did you, William? Poor you.

(Pitying and patronising smile from Whimsey.)

[sho]

German concise? Quite the contrary, m'dear as Kim mentioned.

As for Latin - well I can't say I am/was a fan but I wouldn't have enjoyed one of the recent Dr Who episodes half as much without knowing where the family got their names.

[saman]

some of your posters, like john scott, mary beard and christina, have hit the nail on the head as far as i'm concerned. i always heard that learning latin was not meant to "show" that you were clever, but actually help develop analytical skills and "make" you more clever, which is why it was compulsory at grammer school.

i've been teaching french for thirty odd years and only did one year of latin back in the sixties, but i've been realizing more and more how useful it is, especially for my own comprehension and teaching of the verb systems.

i recently bought an old second-hand school text book for latin and greek and i plan to teach myself what i wish i had been able to continue a bit longer at school.

[Mr Shush]

I think that Latin's chief benefit is that, because the grammar is both very different to our own and readliy visible, its study facilitates a general understanding of the workings of language. This makes it easier to learn other languages - even completely unrelated ones - but perhaps more importantly it is a great help in writing correctly and well in English. I suspect that the general decline in the standard of written English among the population as a whole is in no small part due to the decline of Latin in schools.

Greek, while undoubtedly a beautiful language in which works of considerable importance have been written, is not as useful in this respect. It is more musical, less structured, less regular.

[Whimsey]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but of course another key advantage - possibly the most important of all in the end - of studying it is that it include the study of the classical period of European history.

European culture is Judaeo-Greek in origins, which is why it's also important to study the Bible/Judaism-Christianity, not necessarily for theological reasons but certainly for cultural reasons.

With European culture now facing a fight for survival over the next century, it's vital - if anyone actually wants to preserve it... - for the next generation to understand its origins and development over 2000 years, the values that it embodies and the traditions that derive from it and that still resonate today.

[Nick K]

Latin is a language as dead as dead could be,
It killed the ancient Romans and came close to killing me.

Always good for twenty minutes or so on a dark and dismal afternoon "Sir, Sir what's the point of learning Latin?". But not to be used too often.

[oneopinionatedmother]

The computer you're using wasn't designed by Classical scholars.

the computer I'm using was designed in Taiwan (and by people who may have learned three languages: taiwanese, mandarin & english). The languages it uses were developed in part by classicists (due to the targeted recruitment into IT of classicists including my own dear old pater back in the 1970's) amongst other people of course.

as my potnia mater likes to say 'the first five languages are the hardest'.

ultimately the best reason to teach classics is that some of us love the subject, will love studying it and go out in life with a desire to spread that love!

my favourite classic quote for today ' dreadful battle raged across the Skaian plain, abandoned by the gods' - i always think of this when i see an internet argument that has got silly and sensible commenters have left it well alone.

[oneopinionatedmother]

re: poetry -

i did one poem by Rimbaud in A level French, the rest was 'Ou est le disco?' style.

yes indeed, for true textual gratification, a meaty course of classics is the only thing in the modern education that cuts it.*

*In eng lit, we studied JD Salinger (yawn)

[Catherine]

Classical Latin and Greek are brain trainers and are even more important now in this age of modern lazy brains. Contemporary society is so consumer obsessed that it loses sight of the importance of the abstract.
Advanced Maths is another brain trainer but Greek and Latin are more entertaining and also allow instant appreciation of so much Art and Literature without Coles Notes.

[Marus Tullius]

Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.

[S.J.]

I studied Latin at grammar school and was good at it. However, today I am not so good at it (apart from a few cliched words and sentences). Years of not having anything to do with Latin have erased that so-called 'knowledge', rendering all those years, efforts and worries whilst studying it wasted.
There are other, more modern and applicable subjects that could be of help when training young minds, something that could prove truly useful when entering work. Thinking 'outside the box', even video games can be more beneficial (if recent research is to be trusted).
Otherwise, it appears that Latin and Greek are still being studied due to some, self-indulgent academics still insisting on keeping them 'alive'.

[Lucy w/o Kids]

Well, one reason is that you can bump up your A-Level scores, but still look irreproachably un-mickey-mouse. Latin and Greek tend to be taught in small classes, and by extremely enthusiastic, bright teachers. Latin was the easiest A-Level I did, and yet people reliably assume it was terribly brainy stuff.

It is, also, fun. The further you get with studying Classics, the more the academic atmosphere insulates you from the kind of academic stress you get with more mainstream, 'useful' subjects. I say go for it!

[Lucy w/o Kids]

'People who have done Latin at school are like a special freemasonary. We all recognise each other and know just how clever we all are. Lovely feeling.'

*Grins*

I can envisage you recognizing a fellow Latinist at fifty paces.

[Yves Ferrer]

Autere ut auteram!

[Paul Clark]

I wasted 4 years at school studying Latin. It probably helped a bit later in life when I lived in Italy and learnt Italian, but Italian classes would have helped more.

Of course specialists who plan to study classical history need to study Greek and Latin, but apart from that, there are many more useful things schoolchildren can do with their time.

[Itxaso]

I studied Greek and Latin at school when I was 16, and I was very good at it! Most people in my class hated it, and probably because they thought they will never need it in life. Well, I need to be frank that I have always been interested in languages and both Latin and Greek helped me a lot to understand mane structures and colloquialism we now say in Spanish (my mother tongue). With regard to English students, they may think that studying Greek and Latin will only be useful to understand Romance language, but English students will not probably know that part of the English they use now is thanks to French and Latin at a time. Moreover, it enjoyed trying to figure out meanings of very long and compound words, it was like a game. "Combining parts of words I could create new ones!" I thought, I saw Latin and Greek like a past-time game, definitely, very related to Maths. It also helped me immensely to learn other languages such as French and English. I would love to catch it up again! :)

[lorne]

The reason these languages are important to learn is that they are root languages from which you can work out the meaning and the derivation of English (and many other languages) words.

[Tom]

Ad fontes!

[Jan]

Many many years ago, I au paired in Italy, for a family with children at secondary school (as a sort of teach-them-English status symbol, but that's another story).

Anyway, under the Italian school system, you had to pass the end of year exams or resits at the end of the summer hols, or resit the whole year. Chiara failed Latin and so was doing extra lessons before the big resit and I sat in.

One of my funniest memories was the vocab test ... what's Latin for "casa"? "um ... casa" and so on. Not sure how she failed first time.

Oddly they didn't decline nouns in the same order as us (nominative still came at the top but dative, genative and ablative were not in the same order) ... oh this thread takes me back...

[HJK]

Well being a Greek my self i had to endure 6 years of compulsory ancient greek schooling...and trust me... even for a native speaker of modern greek as myself ,ancient greek is indeed a challenge.
Latin on the other hand is a root language as is Greek and both language help us grasp the meaning and terminologies in science.

btw Greek is a living language whereas Latin is long gone...so i guess one more reason for people to learn greek is that you can use it in Greece if you go on holidays!!!!

[Andy Crofts]

Wanna challenge? Latin's a doddle.
Try learning Finnish.
A living language, yet bloody difficult.

[Roger]

Why study Latin or Greek? Many reasons!

The grammar of classical Latin and Greek is, like that of Sanskrit, highly formalized and very clear cut. As inflected languages, they exemplify that type of language, opening the door to understanding, inter alia, German and Russian. They also help one understand English grammar better, partly because English was an inflected language a thousand years ago, and traces of that remain, and partly because the various "parts of speech" are not as clearly distinguished in English as in Latin & Greek.

Knowledge of Latin and Greek vocabulary opens to the door to understanding a great deal of the fancier, more technical vocabulary of English. A word like "teratogenic" becomes a piece of cake to understand the first time it is seen.

Knowing Latin and Greek helps enormously in understanding the cultures that use those languages - and those cultures set the pattern for a great many later developments in European culture.

Last but not least, knowing Latin in particular opens the door to a better, broader understanding of the Romance languages: French, Spanish, Italian, Romanian, etc.

Plus it's simply good exercise for the brain, improving in particular your memory: nothing like being able to recite from heart bleeding chunks of Virgil, Caesar, Homer, and all the rest. Astound your friends and amaze your enemies.

[Beth Venus]

Andy Crofts is right, Finnish is one hell of a b***h of a language. But it sure is beautiful! Sometimes the beauty of a language is enough to make learning it no hardship.

[Beth Venus]

In response to the comment about Maths having little practical usage after the age of 13: if you're going to be an engineer or computer expert, then that comment is untrue. Advanced maths isn't practical for everybody, but it IS practical. And beautiful sometimes.

[N.S. Palmer]

I never truly understood English until I studied Latin. All European languages are either derived from or heavily influenced by Latin.

It's well worth the students' time, and if they have a good teacher, it's great fun as well!

[Basil]

Εάν δέν έμαθες Λατινικά ή Ελληνικά εισαι ή αμόρφοτος ή Αγγλος.

[Kate]

I painfully endured three years of Latin and Classics at secondary school a few years ago and, on reflection, it wasn't the lessons at school which help with day-to-day language, but things I've picked up over the years.

Caecellius est mercartor; puella est in horto etc etc taught me nothing.

I've found it's everyday exposure to words with ancient roots and meanings, whether it be in conversation, on the television or elsewhere, which really make you notice the Latin in things.

[Tom, Oxford]

Simple - classics is an easy route into Oxbridge

[oneopinionatedmother]

Simple - classics is an easy route into Oxbridge

erm..no.
there is no easy route. Every place is competed for by the children of the kaloi kagathoi - in classics even more so as it is so little taught in the state sector.

[Jones]

In Germany, Latin is a requirement if you want to study history or medicine.

Latin is a springboard to many other languages. And it helps to understand English, too.

Even on holiday, understanding Latin adds just that bit more when walking around ancient sites and you are able to understand inscriptions.

[Nicola]

I did Latin GCSE about 7 years ago. I reckon learning some latin hugely improved my french grade as well....plus it's nice to brag about how I did latin in school ;-)
Caecilius est in triclinium
I also remember studying the poems by Catullus, I vaguely remember something about him having a mistress called Lesbia and how the poems start off all lovey dovey and end with him being pretty miffed. We also had to learn Daedalus and Icarus off by heart. Loved it!

[evan millner]

Latin was used across Europe by educated people, until around the mid 1700's, and is some smaller countries, its use in higher education persisted for longer. Lectures in universities across Europe, were given in Latin. Almost anything written for an international readership, was written in Latin - many, many thousands of works of literature, and poetry....Latin did not stop with the Romans. Until comparatively recently, all Europeans who were educated at University level, were di-glott. Access to the virile literature of the Romans themselves, is also another reason to learn Latin. What other language can boast of over 2000 years of literary production? Very little of this material exists in translation - indeed, much of it remains uncatalogued. The huge task of cataloging all this material is only now in its infancy http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/bibliography/ - but there is more than enough high quality literature written in Latin to keep an educated reader occupied for several lifetimes. What is amazing, is that all this material is now accessible digitally in your living room, because of great scanning projects such as the Internet Archive and Google Books. This access to reading material is creating a lot of excitement, and has given Latin a big boost. It is this access to the literature written in Latin, covering 2000 plus years of European Civilisation, that justifies the teaching and studying of the language. A Europe without Latin would be as bereft of its cultural heritage, as a China without Chinese.

There are still many people who enjoy using their Latin for communication - both spoken, and for writing letters. A new phenomenon, is real time text chat - the text chatroom on http://schola.ning.com is, surprisingly, busy every day. Latin never quite died, but its use has certainly become attenuated.

[GARTH STRONG]

Learning Latin will not only give you a stronger understanding and better command of the English language...it will facilitate your learning other foreign languages, especially Spanish and French.

There are fascinating worlds - apart from the English-speaking one - right here on Earth, awaiting your exploration: A command of foreign languages opens the doors to those other worlds to you.

If you truly wish to be, and to feel
that you are an educated person, do not miss an opportunity to learn a foreign language. Your earning power will be incresed, and your social, intellectual and career horizons will be expanded.

[Michael]

My Latin teacher, a Jesuit priest, used to answer this question with: 'No point at all. Ask a damn fool question, get a damn fool answer'.

[Sara]

NO NO NO NO! Everyone is missing the point!

You learn Latin and Greek, as I have done and continue to do so at uni, is so you can read and understand the literature of that language. Yes it helps with your English and French and Spanish and Italian and Portuguese and Romanian and German and Greek, but that's no the point. The point is I can appreciate just how good the Iliad is as a work of literature. Similarly Virgil is anamazingly skilled wordsmith, and Ovid, he'd be a rockstar nowadays. And Aristophanes's plays can be hilarious still, and how else can you understand completely Plato?

The point is, though I'm afraid it will get overlooked among all these comments spluttering the same thing, is that what the Greeks and Romans, and yes even a Syrian named Lucian and some Jewish wackos, did was write amazing literature. I only hope in thousands of years' time, some kid who doesn't know what she's missing out on doesn't go "gawd, why do I have to learn Shakespearean English?", to read the damn plays!

[Whimsey]

"I vaguely remember something about him having a mistress called Lesbia and how the poems start off all lovey dovey and end with him being pretty miffed."

Yup, poor old Catullus certainly picked a bad 'un to fall for (her brother was even worse!). Clodia (her real name) was a real 'rich bitch' and got through more lovers than roasted dormice dinners, and went off them PDQ (including Catullus). That said, I believe we know most about her from Cicero, who wrote pretty venomously about her (and her brother, Clodius, an upper class thug), so maybe she was actually quite nice, and Catullus a complete drip and seriously irritating.

[Rachel]

Whimsey
That's probably one of the best descriptions of Catallus I've heard! I always remember my lecturer teaching us about his poems, and myself and my friends thinking the sparrow poem was lovely until our lecturer explained that the sparrow didn't really exist and that it represented....well I'll leave it at that, lets just say we were all quite shocked!

[rogueclassicist]

While pondering this perennial question and trying to find a different 'tack' than the standard answers (all of which have pretty much been given), it's probably a good thing to approach this from a sort of meta-what-you're-actually-learning point of view. You could, in fact, ask the same question about why you have to learn math(s), since the vast majority of it will never actually be used by the vast majority of people; ditto science, for the same reasons. So lets generalize from all the useless stuff we learn (and in my case, teach): math teaches you how to *think* abstractly; science teaches you how to *think* practically (i.e. through experimentation and application of logic); latin teaches you how to *think* using language. It's the patterns of thinking that stick with you once you leave the hallowed halls of whatever institution you attend, even if you never ... latin is (and in some countries, should be, but isn't) one of the pieces to the complete thinking puzzle.

[Whimsey]

the sparrow didn't really exist and that it represented....well I'll leave it at that, lets just say we were all quite shocked!
***

And so am I! I've never heard of that before. Just goes to show in my innocent teenage time we never suspected the poor old sparrow.

Personally, I think the 'nicest' aspect of Catullus was when he wrote the poem to his dead brother.

[Whimsey]

One use of learning Latin and Greek hasn't yet been mentioned. Given that the prison authorities have now rumbled the Shakepiarian slang that the inmates are using to deal drugs with, it's time Her Maj's guests took up with a new secret language....

I'm sure Classical Languages lessons will prove very popular....

[Rachel]

And so am I! I've never heard of that before. Just goes to show in my innocent teenage time we never suspected the poor old sparrow.
***********
Know what you mean, even at 19 we liked to think he was actually talking about a sparrow. I think that young people today really miss out on culture by not atleast reading some classical books, I'm pretty sure that if GCSE students had to study The Golden Ass they would probably enjoy literature lessons more!

[oneopinionatedmother]

wasn't it obvious about the sparrow?
i mean 'deliciae meae puellae' and all..hopping around in her lap? Maybe am just dirty minded.

I'm very fond of dear old Catulus, and am miffed on his behalf - surely his poem to Flavius

'Flavi, delicias tuas catullo,
ni sint illepidas atque inelegantes,
uelles dicere nec tacere posses'

(ie flavius,
if your girlfriend wasn't *totally* illepid and inelegant...you'd gush about her to Catullus without shutting up ..)

makes it clear the man was a b*tch of the highest order, not just Lesbias plaything. Although to paraphrase Morticia Adams, Lesbia obviously had him under her spell: I respect that.(note: i'm pleased to note that the tranny online is even worse than mine and really doesn't come close to translating these lines look http://www.cipherjournal.com/html/koehn.html )

my worst translation was Horace 'the sword (of Damocles) hangs over ever cervix'
or something like that. How my mother laughed...
and then there was

'O fons Bandusae, more beautiful than glass'

which, like a malfunctioning garden vacuum, sucks and blows at the same time.

sententia hodie est 'vivamus atque amemus'...

(as it's been a lovely hot day, and i'm off to the NEW FOREST Tomorrow yay!)

[Sundaeg1rl]

I studied Latin in the first few years of grammar school. I tried so hard to enjoy it - after all, I really loved learning other languages - but it had a soporific effect on me and my brain switched off. I this wasn't helped by the teacher, who was as old as the language and really boring. Not even the crazy exploits of Caecilius could spice it up!

Anyway, what I did learn has been useful in a 'read around the subject' kind of way - it's been great for my knowledge of language, including English. My sister didn't studied Latin at all, and was somewhat overwhelmed when it came to learning all the plant names on her horticulture course!

One day it is my dream to read (and finish) Harrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis!

[Rachel N]

I've got that Harry Potter in Latin, I gaze at it lovingly. My mum got it for me, but she had originally been trying to get one for me in Greek (it hadn't come out at that point) and apparently the shop clerk gave her a very odd look for asking for it in Ancient Greek!

[Malcolm McLean]

The Pope is intent on reviving the use of Latin in the Catholic litury. One Sunday of every month a Leeds is now Latin Mass.

I actually use my Latin far more than my French. I'm much more likely to want to read something written a long time ago, or go to Mass, than I am to need to speak to French person outside of an international context (eg scientific conference) where English is the expected language.

[mark]

'cos it giv 'cha gud spailing 'n u can buil' sentence wiv a verb in it.

[Anthony Farrar]

...it brings you nothing in the end (except knowledge)?"

Knowlege is power don't you know.

[Whimsey]

"The Pope is intent on reviving the use of Latin in the Catholic litury. One Sunday of every month a Leeds is now Latin Mass."

I do wish the CoE would do likewise with the King James Bible and the l6th Century prayer book. A whole generation of children has grown up deprived of some of the most beautifully written prose in the English language. Appalling cultural deficit.

[H Grant]

Latin's not TOTALLY dead. We lived in Germany for some years, and before my German was fluent I had several trips to the doctor during which we had terrible difficulties understanding each other until we hit on the idea of his naming the maladies in Latin. No problem...

[Me]

I think the idea of the body of "indispensible" literature in latin is rather specious - it has neither more or less value than classic literature read in any other language. The value is in the work, not the language.
Where the latin scholar has an advantage is being able to access vast reams of historical information directly, rather than having to rely on someone else's interpretation.
The degree of inflection in latin tends to force the student into "dissecting" language. This can be a great advantage - it teaches a methodical approach to language, but to say it is the "only" way is nonsensical. It's like saying that because scales and intervals are arithmetically related, maths is necessary to comprehend and perform music.

[David Ashton]

Fleur...I did a bit of Latin at school and I now regret not doing more. Why? Because the roots of so many of our words come from Latin and Greek, not just in English but in most European languages as well. A knowledge of the "dead" languages helps you so much, especially when you come across words you don't know. They may be dead languages but their children are the languages of today.