Why you shouldn't go to university

New research suggests that half of full-time students set to graduate this summer are seriously considering postgrad options. This is especially popular with those at Russell Group or other older universities, where, according to Opinionpanel Research, almost a third of final year students have applied for more study.

One major cause of this is the recession. And the reasons are not just the sheer lack of jobs for graduating students, but also because the students surveyed thought that the lack of sufficient graduate jobs meant there was more need to "stand out from the crowd." In fact, the research also suggests (as seen in other surveys elsewhere), that final year students are having a very hard time, and are seriously rethinking their plans. Many say they would consider part-time or non-graduate-level roles.

It's not a pretty picture for students, and Tom Mursell (whom you can see above) could be forgiven if he had a wry smile. The 19-year-old decided not to go to university, and has set up his own website. notgoingtouni.com, to encourage others to follow his path. Here he explains why.....

"Just over a year ago I remember visiting a careers adviser in my local careers centre and telling him I’d decided I didn’t think uni was for me at this stage. However, I didn’t know what my options were.

“Well what is it you see yourself doing in a few years time?” he asked. And, like a lot of young people I didn’t have a clue. The only difference with me was that I had decided not to go to uni.

I finally told the adviser that I thought a managerial position would suit me (a family friend was doing a retail management course) and I was met with a patronising talk about how there are different types of managers. This was probably the most careers advice I got face-to-face during college or at least advice which didn’t involve talking about University courses.

One evening I was looking for jobs online, still not knowing what I wanted to do, and stumbled across a trainee legal position. The prospect of earning whilst studying to become a solicitor excited me, not least because of my interest in Law. I then found similar training positions in different industries; companies offering a salary and the chance to gain a qualification at the same time. At some stage my inner-entrepreneur came into play after finding all these opportunities yet no single place to find them together.
I decided to set up notgoingtouni.co.uk, a website for school and college leavers which offered everything outside of University - "the advice and jobs you probably didn’t know about"!

However, turning my back on University at age 18 has led me to some hurdles, but I'm sure I've made the right choice. I questioned what it actually meant to not go to university now, and from what I’ve seen the days where any university degree meant an automatic job, are long gone, especially in the current climate. Should success in life be measured on how far you get in full-time education? Personally I feel it shouldn’t, and whilst I may be met with people saying that the average graduate will earn £100,000 more over their lifetime than non-graduates, I think success in life lies with happiness. Whilst it may be nice to earn such a large salary, not everyone aspires to be a brain surgeon.

When I first told my parents I wasn’t going to university (at least in the short-term) they were a bit shocked as they felt it was always going to be the next step for me. I don’t blame any parents for feeling anxious when their child declares this as they naturally want the best for them. I’m often asked by worried parents exactly what choices their son/daughter has and whether they’re ruling out education altogether. My replies are always the same. University isn’t just for 18 year olds, and at some stage in our working lives we may make a decision to go back to study, arguably when you’re more motivated to do so. There also seems to be a stigma attached to people who don’t go to university and a common misconception that your choices are either an apprenticeship at age 16 or university at 18. In reality there is a huge grey area, one which I want to educate others about.

There are apprenticeships and training schemes in all manner of areas, from accountancy to law, not necessarily the pre-conceived plumbing or bricklaying. There are also now so many alternative ways to study and notgoingtouni.co.uk works closely with the likes of The Open University where school leavers can study a degree for free if they earn under £16,000. There are also many employers who offer the opportunity to work whilst studying towards a foundation or honours degree.

Do I regret not going to uni? No, because I’ve discovered my true passion and picked up skills I may never have got at university. However, I also haven’t ruled out education altogether."

What do you think? Should A level students reconsider university or is a degree more vital than ever?

Read School Gate:

Update: the university "black hole" when it comes to places. How do you feel?

The nightmare of graduation in 2009

Ten movies which make you glad you didn't go to university

Why the snobbery against less well-known universities?

Is it worth going to university if you can't get a job afterwards?

Tips on getting that elusive job after graduation

Comments

[siobhan curious]

I wrote a post on this question recently - can one be successful without going to college? - and am now delighted to find a young person speaking directly about his experience, especially because he knows so much more about this subject than I do. You will find my post here:

http://siobhancurious.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/who-says-you-have-to-go-to-college/

I will check out Tom's website immediately.

[mama69]

Going to Uni doesn't immediately confer success...I know many deadbeats with degrees in nasty little jobs! I think this young man has had a great idea, followed through and shown initiative in a way many people with a degree aren't able to! Life offers MANY pathways...why all crowd and rush down the same narrow path just to be seen to do the same as everyone else without questioning whether it is the right thing for one personally? Well done Tom.

[Helen]

Tom,
Just the fact that you are willing to consider carefully what is right for you at this stage in your life rather than go with the herd augures well for your future.

Uni is a very expensive gig these days - and the number of people who have that 'bit of paper' has grown rapidly in recent years. So, much more competition for jobs

I took 3 years out after school before going to UNI and have no regrets.

I now have 2 degrees in different fields.

The real challenge in the 21st century is keeping your skillset relevant throughout your career. You don't do this by going to uni once and then getting a job. You do it by being willing and motivated to learn all the way through your working career. Money saved from not going to uni now may be more useful to be invested in your development at a later stage in your career.

I'm only 43 but when I started work we did not even have computers on our desks. In just 25 years we have gained email, internet, search engines, mobile phones and blackberries.

These technologies have made my original profession of marketing unrecognisable from how it was when I first started as a trainee.

During the next 25 years technologies will appear even faster. The challenge is to keep up!!!!

You are right to choose your own path... and it's a courageous choice

[oneopinionatedmother]

Horses for courses....

there are many things one can do that are equally or more rewarding than university, though for social reasons it may be a good idea to do your first degree whilst sub-22. This way you will at least not feel like the 'grandad' of most campuses.

I greatly enjoyed traveling after university and the hourly-paid jobs I did during/after university built up to get me sufficient experience to get a decent job in the end. The difficulty in translating degree into job is very far from new and one both my parents had trouble with. The fact that many graduates feel lost after university isn't really a reason not to go - more a reason to adjust ones expectations.

Some employers will bin any CV without a degree on it (or have a computer do this for them) fair or otherwise, be aware that choosing to *never* do a degree closes many doors. Even travelling can be easier with a degree (as it is a requirement for a work visa in many countries)

there are some phenomenaly successful business heads out there without initials after their names, but be aware they have had to work extra hard to prove their worth because of that.

[Whimsey]

The sooner unis get their act together and offer intensive 2-year degree courses the better. It's absurd that it takes three calendar years to get a degree, when out of the 33 months of that calendar year the students are only up at uni for 20 months - a whole TWELVE MONTHS is spent on vacation! Absurd and utterly unjustifiable to have five months vacation every year at uni. Ludicrous. Waste of time and money.

The other huge issue that has to be sorted, of course, is just what amount of teaching time and 'professorial input' every student gets. Whilst the university funding system is the mess it is - ie, who is funding what, and whom, and for what (teaching, research, etc etc), students are NOT going to get good VFM or ROT.

[sho]

You should look at the Unis here if you think 3 years is a long time. The government is trying to condense the courses but there is such a protest agaisnt it that they are really going to have to work hard.

As a result, and of endless post-graduate studies, I frequently encounter first-time-job people aged 35 who then moan that younger people who got their backsides in gear and studied faster (usually elsewhere) or who took a different path, earn more than them.

Unfortunately, these days, it seems that employers only look at candidates for any job if they have a degree. That's a mindset that also needs to change.

[Tax Mummy]

Good luck with your legal plans - but see whether you have any chance of being a solicitor or a barrister without a (good) degree (and from a good uni). You may well pick up a position as a legal executive, but will this be enough? - the difference is like a teaching assistant cf a teacher...

[Manchester Metropolitan University]

A campaign to help graduates search for work has been launched by Manchester Metropolitan University. Talent@MMU aims to raise awareness amongst employers of the skills and talents of their graduates and encourage more vacancies to be flagged directly to the University. The new micro site is www.mmu.ac.uk/talent

[Ben Marks]

Given the state of the UK economy I’d have thought that going to univeristy (postgrad or undergrad) was about the best thing to do right now. The labour force clearly doesn't need vast numbers of new graduates right now but in one, two or three years’ time, it may. So riding out the storm of the recession in the relative calm of Higher Education seems sensible. You benefit from entering the labour maket at the start of an upturn and the labour market benefits from more talented, better trained workers. Let’s hope the government (this one of the next one) don’t start slashing HE budgets just when it’s so critical to the economy.

[opiniononeverything]

@Whimsey - I can see where you are coming from with regards to the amount of holiday time students get, HOWEVER, had I not had a break between every term where I could work full time and earn some money, I would not have been able to afford to go back for the next term!! I didn't have a 'holiday' for my entire 3 years, I was either in full time education, or a full time job.
As for Tom, what a great idea - it's a shame this kind of service has not been provided by careers advisors to the majority!!

[sho]

But we also have to remember there are also people without degrees who should be given the chance to work too.

Or university graduates such a brilliant elite that nobody else should get a look in?

[Lucy w/o Kids]

Ben Marks - I see your point, but it's worth acknowledging that university isn't simply a way of stepping out of the job market for three years - it's expensive, too. Not to be too gloomy, but certainly at postgraduate level funding is extremely scarce this year, and I see no reason why it won't be worse next year. I know of people with 1st class degrees and Oxbridge Masters' who haven't secured PhD funding, for example. I know those qualifications don't necessarily add up to the right person for the place, but they should be a good indication!

Without funding for postgraduate, and without support for undergraduate, you're looking at a very expensive three years.

[rob]

Great post. It's a sign of maturity that your taking charge of your own life and not deferring that for 3 years. Re the careers advice at school, I'm sorry to see it's as bad today as it was 30 years ago. Poor guy probably went to uni!

[lyn]

IN SPAIN MOST DEGREE COURSES ARE 5 YEARS SO THE 3 YEAR ONES IN UK ARE SHORT IN COMPARISON. MY SON DIDN'T WANT TO STUDY AT UNI WHEN HE LEFT WITH HIS BACCALAUREATE, BUT NOW HAS DECIDED HE DOES WANT TO GO AT AGE 22. IT'S NEVER TOO LATE

[Nikki]

It's good that people are finally realising that university isn't for everyone. The government targets of getting 50% of 18 year olds to go to university is ridiculous and has resulted in a glut of "mickey mouse" courses and inadequate higher educations institutions which has led to the devaluation of higher education as a whole. The budget would be better spent on widening participation so that people from all backgrounds who have the required level of intelligence are encouraged to apply to universities for real degrees.

[Malcolm McLean]

If you are capable of going to a Russell group (top 20) university, then it's a brave decision not to attend.
Of course you will always find individuals who make a success of their choices. Often they have unusually good family contacts, or exceptionally extroverted personalities. In the first few years, vast areas of employment will be locked out from you. In later life, you will find it hard to get a responsible job without some initial experience.

However personality usually trumps paper qualifications in the end, and there are always areas (eg computer programming) which are too new to have been professionalised yet, or too small for there to be formal entrance requirements.

[Tim]

Here’s a thought – if you weren’t lucky enough to be born in the UK (or EU), it is almost impossible to obtain the right to live and work here without a degree (if you’re doing things legally).

Before anyone starts crowing about having won the genetic lottery – the same is true of lots of other countries; you’ll need to take up a trade that’s in pretty severe shortage if you want to move to Australia or New Zealand without a degree (as the entire population of the UK seems to aspire to for some reason, I’d happily go “swapsies” if our respective governments permitted this).

These barriers may be largely artificial, but they still exist. The attitude of employers isn’t the only limitation you’ll face in life without university.

[jd]

eldest son went to uni - dropped out after a year, now a successful media freelancer who can afford time off when he wants for holidays. middle son decided not to go to uni - now has a successful career in the media. daughter went to art college, became art teacher with outdoor activities, now leads expeditions world-wide. don't pressure you kids to do anything they don't want to and let them find their own way in life. i am so proud of mine!

[Tina]

Being from Canada and having done a post grad in Australia I came out with a huge debt from University, but what I more so came out with was the following.
1. A greater understanding of the world
2. Valuable skills and knowledge
3. Self-confidence
4. Greater self-marketing
5. The ability to live all over the world
6. Clarity on what I wanted to be.
University and further education is as much about growing up and learning skills than it is about getting a good job. No one should expect to walk in to a job, let alone a good one.

When I was a student I worked - every summer I worked. I think that is what is missing - the combination with work experience. Look to the US and Canada. They combine the two and it works. We have lower teen birth rates, less problems with crime and drinking and a sustainable banking and social welfare system.

Perhaps education at University and keeping kids in school is about more!

[Lucy w/o K]

Tina - um, not to put too fine a point on it, but what on earth are you talking about?! Virtually all students here work over the summer too, and many during term time as well. As to social welfare, crime, don't make us all laugh. According to the unreliable wikipedia, the US and Canada have a terrible record for teen pregnancy, worse than that of the UK. If you can find me a better source of info, please do!

I may think there's an increasingly large amount wrong with education and social welfare in this country. But then I compare it to America, and I feel better.

(Btw, what makes you think you can't learn life lessons in a job? The writer of this article clearly did.)

[fraser]

degree at 36.
army officer at 30
midwife at 29
nurse at 24
loss adjuster at 21
civil servant at 18
shelf stacker at 16

why think at 16-18 you chose for life?

just go for it and dont think like the herd.

get as much info as poss, and as the article says-get employer or govt to pay you a wage for learning if possible.

[Kenneth]

Cool idea and website. I went to University but it was at the tailend of that innocent time when the job at the end was not the goal and when higher education really did mean a step up - and not increasingly a waiting room for the dole due to over provision. The "grey area" has never been more neglected with this Govt's obsession with higher educuation, regardless of course and student quality. Anything that explores that area is good news.

[Natasha]

Hi, good idea for a website, wish I had thought of it!
As you say there are so many more options including Open University which many people do as they work.
I speak four languages fluently and in my first job after college, I earned more then uni leavers due to this, they couldn't speak another language which was beneficial to the job.
I am glad I didn't go as many of my friends are stil paying off their student loans in their 30s!
I have always had my own money, never had to live as a poor student living off pot noodles and watching daytime tv, bunking off lectures and getting drunk every night.
I think I have had more life experience and done things for myself, including travelling as whenever I got my work holidays I could afford to visit some amazing places.
I also travelled and worked aborad... It's just not for everyone and it certainly wasn't for me!

[Keith S]

Almost every article on universities accompanied by a photo of a student has a photo of a female student.

But have an article on halting your formal education, and there is a photo of a male.

[Keith S]

People should definitely not feel they are making an irrevocable choice on whether to ever attend university or not at age 18.

Going to university just because your parents want you to, or because the government wants you to makes no sense.

And getting a general BA "to broaden your horizions" -- most of what you would pick up doing that you would pick up anyways in the course of living life, if you'd care to read the right magazines and books.

Lots of entrepreneurs make more money than professionals (because of the risk, because most entrepreneurs live roller coaster lives), and many successful entrepreneurs do not have university.

And trades offer good incomes, and some trades offer are in demand in Canada and the USA and offer an opportunity to immigrate.

However, if you know you want to enter a profession, or middle or senior management, you will be permanently held back unless you get a degree at some point.

[Jon]

What a silly article. Who would want to take advice on something so important from a precocious 19 year old. Not everyone has the good fortune and opportunity to go to university, which is why it is unfair to judge someone purely on them not having a degree. But having the opportunity to go and turning it down marks one out as very foolish. University is not there just to get you a job, it's a grounding for life. Turn down this opportunity and it will be something you will ultimately regret for the rest of your life. You will carry a stigma in any professional environment and have to explain, constantly, why you didn't graduate. Yes, it's a lot of money, but you are going to be working for fifty years, so why not have some time to develop first. Also, don't think that part time and OU degrees are valued equally. They are not, because even if they are as academically rigorous, they do not offer the same life experience. Finally, avoid any two year course that is called a "degree". US bachelor degrees are four years (masters are two years), so UK degrees are already short by comparison.

[Gary Sage]

That's the wonder of free speech - even fools get to write a column on timesonline.

[Roo]

I'm 19 and decided not to go to uni. Apart from the fact I did badly in my A levels (I earned excellent GCSEs though), I felt university was out of my financial reach. Instead, I started work at a pharmaceutical company, lived well below my means and worked efficiently. Unfortunately, the recession hit the company hard and my 10 month contract was not renewed. I took this as a chance to travel- whilst my friends were stressing over exams, I was pounding the streets of Harajuku, Tokyo. I'm writing this now from a computer in Portland Public Library, Oregon. Tomorrow I fly out to Hawaii and when I return to London in 2 months I've still got a grand or two to fall back on before I find my next job.

Unless you know exactly what you want to do with your life, uni will just put you in piles of debt. It's not worth it.

[Alex]

"Also, don't think that part time and OU degrees are valued equally"

Often they are valued higher by employers, it shows initiative and independence to do a course and a full time job. Yet, this obnoxious elitist wants to talk about "life skills"? They obviously didn't teach you any...

[Jane]

I didn't go to uni and back in 2001 I was earning £640 a day. Drive, hard work and talent don't need degrees in order to succeed in the work place.

Now at 54 I am going to uni, studying my hobby Egyptology just for enjoyment and personal development

[jean]

You should not go to university if you are stupid. Otherwise, please do, even if newspapers tell you it doesn't make sense. We're going down as a civilisation and education is the only way back up. So even when the newspapers disappear completely from the face of the earth, we'll still need people who can do maths, physics and biology.

[Anne Allen]

I think the point is that each A Level student should decide for themselves whether an Uni degree is for them based on their own individual goals and skills. Some who aren't into academics and prefer a more practical approach should maybe follow the path set out above. Others who like academics or wish to follow a career path that needs a degree should go to University. The problem is that we put students in the wrong degree and don't direct them toward degrees like science or engineering. Surely University's can provide both approaches?

In saying this, you 'should' got to University. And I'm a 2009 graduate. It's a laugh. It's the chance to be young, to have fun and meet people. You can put off life for a couple of years. Ignore the stuffy ones who preach about jobs and the economy. Go and fun for 3 years and don't look back.

[Jonathan]

Good on you, sir. I find there's such stigma attached to going to uni nowadays. Uni isn't what its cracked up to be. On one hand, it gives people the chance to learn, work hard, and gain plenty of soft skills that are indeed valuable for your personal development. On the other, it just gives people an opportunity to have a laid back time, enjoy holidays for 3-5 months of the year, and to develop bad drinking habits.

I think it depends on the type of degree course you choose (there are plenty of mickey mouse courses out there!) and if you are passionate about the subject area.

[Stephen]

An average graduate earns £100,000 more than a non-graduate, yet a graduate will leave university with debts of roughly £30,000 that takes it down to £70,000. With retirement at 67 and starting at 21 that means the difference is just £1,500 a year or £29 per week.

[DamaskinosWasRight]

University today is like primary school was 50 years ago - a mere necessity. You need a graduate degree these days to be truly accomplished.

In fact, you should probably get two graduate degrees.

You should be thrilled that you have the opportunity to learn these things.

On the other hand , if you have the entrepreneurial spirit and a great moneymaking idea, go ahead and make the money now.

.

[E Yee Ken]

In case there is another student facing such a difficult
situation, I am prepared to take care of the child free of charge until the MBA program is completed. (You will be required to breast feed the child almost every day.)
At the end of the program, your beautiful baby is all yours.

[Mozz]

300,000 Graduates - only 30,000 Graduate jobs.... a very important statistic that I wasnt told before going to university.

[Oonagh]

Unless things have changed, I don't think you can be a lawyer without a degree. A legal executive, yes - so arguably you have all the ability of a lawyer, but less pay.
Not such a great plan I would say if you want a career in law.

[Dectora]

Fine: don't go to university, but don't then complain that you are unable to practise medicine. A Friend's son decided that a degree was irrelevant for him; after a decade of dead-end jobs he changed his mind. To put Tom's career in perspective we would have to look at, say, 1000 young people who decided not to attend University and see where most of them ended up as opposed to a 1000 young people who did attend university. The results might be a trifle depressing for enthusiasts for the non-university route to fame and fortune.

[Mia]

We're far past the days when simply going to university was enough to get you sorted for life; today a student has to deal with the competition of 45% of his or her peers so there is simply no point going unless you have a career plan. Any institution/subject outside the top 20 (with a couple of tweaks) is probably not worth your time on a purely academic level so unless you're doing something like Physics at Imperial or English at Durham you should think very carefully about studying for the sake of academic study. If you know exactly what you want to do and you know how your course is going to further your aim (eg. Dentistry at Liverpool) then it's obviously still worth going, even if the course itself isn't the best. The problems arise when people take courses that aren't well-respected enough to be worth it on a purely academic basis (eg. Theology at Hull/Economics at Northumbria) and don't know what they're going to do with it. Then it's easy to see how they'd have been better off spending those three years working their way up the career ladder.

[Steve the Neighbour]

It's a laugh. This university thing. At 18, the best you can hope for is to gain social maturity, because if you don't actually go with the intention to learn about something you want to do afterwards, you are wasting effort - the meal ticket days are gone as the ticket itself is meaningless.

[stuart]

2 points - firstly: 'Should success in life be measured on how far you get in full-time education?' - probably more a reflection of your parents bank account actually - most double masters layabouts I know were bank rolled by mater and pater - not a reflection of their I.Q.

secondly - Careers advice at 18 was 22 years ago for me - and it sounds equally pitiful today if you dont want to go to uni. One of my friends was told he was 'good for manual labour' - he has been working in finance in the City for over 20 years now and I dread to think how much more he earns than the teacher who told him this (not that money is everything - although it is mentioned as a point above).

[Mutleee]

Its something I've commented upon for years! At 17 or 18 when most students are making decisions about their futures and making decisions.. they haven't worked out what it is that they actually want to do!!! They haven't grown up yet, but the academic system in this country pushes them to make decisions which not suprisingly, many of them regret as they get older and realise a degree in media studies, surfing or geography probablu isn't going to give them what they want through the rest of their lives!

Counselors should be prepared to offer them the support to defer the uni application for as many years as it takes for the student to work out what it is they want. University funding should be available to applicants who are any age. More funding for those that can be argued are socially useful and less for the frivolous.

[JB]

I was very happy to read this article and find out about the website as I have one son at uni and one who is struggling at school and undecided about the future but has said I don't want to go to uni like my brother.

[Hugh]

'One evening I was looking for jobs online, still not knowing what I wanted to do, and stumbled across a trainee legal position. The prospect of earning whilst studying to become a solicitor excited me, not least because of my interest in Law.'

Shame that back in reality you actually need to have done a degree to become a solicitor, the one year GDL if that degree wasn't a law degree and the one year LPC regardless of which type of degree you completed. Once all of those steps is completed you can then do the two year training contract before qualifying as a solicitor (and as there's a lot of competition for them, training contract spaces are very hard to get).

The website sounds like a great idea but on this one point at least the article is completely misleading.

[Malcolm McLean]

"To put Tom's career in perspective we would have to look at, say, 1000 young people who decided not to attend University and see where most of them ended up as opposed to a 1000 young people who did attend university."

One thing that university taught me is that to do that experiment you'd have to randomly assign your subject to university / non-university groups, which isn't possible.
People who choose not to go to university are not a random subset of the population. Some will have good reasons, like a career in the family firm ready for them, some will have bad reasons like wanting to annoy their parents, but they will be different from the university group.

[Ali]

For many people, 18 is too young to make the choice about university. If universities didn't accept people until 21, then those three years of life experience would help people come to a sensible decision about university rather than just jumping into it.
It it also important to mention that the decision does NOT have to be made at 18. Being a mature student is good for a whole load of reasons, not least that you know you want to be there.
Me-
18: university (biology)
20: quit university after a year and a half
21-24: worked in a hospital
25: went back to university to study medicine. Got it right this time!
So even with the "top" degrees being a mature student isn't a problem. If anything it makes you stand out.

[Jonathon]

The PISA 2006 survey shows that British 15-year old students have poorer numerical and literacy skills than those in the rest of Europe and Asia. Coupled with the poor quality of British universities outside the top-20, this helps to explain why companies in this country will overlook people like the author of this article or graduates from lowly-ranked universities and will hire foreign graduates with better numerical and literacy skills instead. Not to mention that these foreign graduates can communicate in two or more languages.

On a side note, good luck to the author of this post. He will need it when in ten years time he can't compete with British and non-British workers with his same skills, similar experience and a degree.

[JRS]

A university education for most people is an expensive nonsense and only worth doing if the student has an end in mind - principally a professional qualification.

I graduated in 1993 with a degree in History & Politics but with no commercial sense whatsoever. I now run my own business, but I can't say that my university education had any bearing on that.

I did have a great time at uni and I made some great friends but is that enough? Bearing that in mind, does the State/taxpayer get good value from its university system? I feel a more vocational option would be better suited to most 16-18 year olds, such as the old apprenticeships and polytechnic courses offered.

[Tess]

Whilst I did go to uni and got lucky in having a degree that prepared me for the career I have and love (as well as learning how to budget for bills, rent, etc.), I know a fair few who didn't go and worked their way up to the work they do now. University doesn't work for everyone, especially where the courses don't cover what people want to know. I also know plenty who did a degree completely unrelated to what they do now. I can't see it's essential to have any old degree.

[David Hornsby]

No, Hugh, you do NOT need to go to university to become a solicitor. You can work and study the ILEX exams at the same time to become a legal executive. With enough experience, and the Fellowship, it is then possible to become a solicitor without a degree. Granted, it takes a long time, but at least you are earning whilst studying.

[Joe]

I went to Uni later in life and there are pros and cons. On the up side I had a lot of practical experience in related subjects and I was working so wasn't (too) poverty stricken, I felt I had the maturity to appreciate the whole learning opportunity - something I'm not sure I had at 18 or 19. Plus having graduated very recently I feel it's something of a advantage over someone who did their degree 10-15 years ago.

The down side is that it was very tough - working 50+ hours per week at the office and then doing, 6 hours of lectures and 10-20 hours reading, reasearch and papers and assignments meant the attrition rate was very high – I think I was 1 of 5 people who graduated out of 50+ who started the course. Also there's always the thought at the back of my mind that I've missed out on opportunites earlier in my career becasue I wasn't a graduate.

Perhaps 18 might be too young and 30's too old and a few years of work prior to entering university in your early 20's may be the balance? However that was my plan until "life" distracted me. The advice I give my kids is always the same: Do it when you're young

[Federica]

I would argue that unless you are aiming for a very specific profession the value of a degree lies more in broadening your culture, in teaching you how to think rigorously and scientifically and in testing your determination to accomplish a long project successfully. These may not have any bearing on your future income, but they may nonetheless be helpful in your life and career in general. It would be interesting to test whether a university education may give you more flexibility in the job market in the long term. Most studies only focus on income after a number of years from graduation, while probably other measures of job satisfaction and security should also be considered.
@Malcolm,
there are statistical methods to deal with what are called selection issues, ie the fact that people who make a certain choice are defined by a set of characteristics that are different from those of the people who didn't. So certainly a more scientific study than the anecdotal evidence presented here would involve a large sample of randomly picked people, while controlling for the factors that influenced that choice.

[David]

I disagree with JRS that a university education is only worth doing if the student has an end in mind. I graduated with an engineering degree and the important things I learnt from my time were how to analyse ideas and data, form decisions based on them and then be able to articulate these in a manner appropriate to the target audience.
I bet these skills are also what JRS obtained from his or her degree in History & Politics and I bet his or her business career would not be where it is without this training. You can obviously obtain these skills outside a university environment, but this is the easiest way.

[Steve]

All work & no play makes Jack a dull boy.

[A Thorn]

What a pompous, arrogant little man Mr Mursell is. I quote "I finally told the adviser that I thought a managerial position would suit me." So without any experience of life, he decides he is management material and bemoans the fact that careers advisor didn't find him a post of CEO of a multi-national. Get real.

[Emma]

I totally agree with the article and Tom's opinion. In this day and age there are too many graduates for the amount of positions available. It's no surprise that many companies are shying away from recruiting graduates because it is becoming a complex process to distinguish one from the other.
Before a degree was something that only those that strived would achieve, these days anybody can have a degree and in whatever subject.

But now you listen to lectures, study a bit in the library and get a 2:1 with no distinction between someone that works really hard to get a 1st and achieves a high 2:1 and someone else that hardly does any work but still gets a lower 2:1.

You can call yourself a graduate but does 3 years and a heafty debt really justify the title in all cases? A degree in maths or business maybe because those really do open up doors to jobs that would be completely shut otherwise, but others that need little studying and even for the students themselves to say they are studying a 'doss' degree really do not warrant all those expenses. And in most cases, graduates of those degrees do not go on to work in their field of expertise.

Again I agree with Tom in that uni shouldn't just be for 18 year olds fresh out of A-levels and with a need to follow the norms, but rather for people that have a passion for a field and want to educate themselves futher in order to get further ahead in life.
Then maybe this would help with the abundance of graduates, the huge student debts, the amount of people out of work because they are so disheartened not to find a graduate position and not willing to accept anything else and also the drinking problems in the UK (missing lectures is too easy when hungover).

[André]

A 2:2 has become what 5 O'levels used to be. A first is no longer enough to get you a job so you have to go on and do a Masters. Then you still can't get a job so you do a PhD (if you can get funding). Then you apply for a job and the prospectiver employer asks "Yes, but what can you do?". BS = Bull S**t, MS = More of the Same and PhD = Piled higher and Deeper. Unless you want to do something like medicine that requires a degree you're (note the spelling everybody) better off getting into the workplace as soon as possible and working your way up. Useful advice to prospective employers is "beware of people with more degrees than a thermometre".

[Anna]

What sense this young man speaks! There is no guidance for seventeen/eighteen year olds of any substance. Except 'go to university', maybe. Ah, that catch-all. I went to university. The job I do is done by graduates and non-graduates. My degree has got me interviews, perhaps, but I will wager a degree isn't be the so-called open door it used to be. Someone with gumption and a different approach to being in charge of their future will be noticed. Someone who has the b***s to step off the conveyor belt to very few jobs and long-term debt and think for themselves. I hope his website has a very postivie influence.

[Anonymous]

I left university after a year, and have since gone on to have a successful career - perhaps even more so than had I stayed as an unhappy, stressed-out and uninspired student. I chose a more challenging path but have absolutely no regrets. As for the cynics: I earn more than most of my friends... some of whom have Masters or PhD degrees! The only barrier I have ever had in my way was prejudice of others. What you study at university seems to become obsolete after a while in many careers.

[Joey]

I went to University simply because everyone else did, and because my school expected me to. I left after a year, and got a job. I'm now earning more than most of the others I was in Uni with, and I have a lot less debt and 3 more years working experience. Only once have I been asked about not having a degree in a job interview - seems that a lot of employers still appreciate experience over some letters after a person's name. I've not regretted my decision, ever.

[Sarah]

I wouldn't necessarily advise people not to go to university, but I agree we've got into a bit of a silly situation where vast numbers of young people are going just because 'that's what you do after leaving school' or because their parents expect it or because they can't think of anything else to do.

Higher education should be something you do because you want to - because you have a passion for your chosen subject and want to study it in depth and learn from the world-leading experts in their fields, because you are aiming for a particular career or profession which requires a degree and you're prepared to put in the hard work to achieve your goal, because you're intelligent and academically-minded and want a bigger intellectual challenge than school could give you, and to learn interesting things and develop rigorous and scholarly ways of thinking -
these are good reasons to go. Anyone who goes to a good university with this mindset should do well. Most people who just drift into it because they couldn't be bothered to think of anything else to do, or thought it would be easier than getting a job, or were scared to stand up to their parents and say they didn't want to go - these people are likely to get a mediocre degree in a mickey-mouse subject and waste a lot of their time and money (or more likely their parents' money) in the process.

[starling]

My highly intelligent partner loved studying. She finished grammar school with the highest marks of the year, then she did two degrees which she both finished cum laude. Now she has a good academic job, with a decent salary, and there's a queue around the block of people who want to employ her.

So she isn't a millionaire, who cares? She's very happy with her job and colleagues and earns enough to live quite comfortably.

[Daniel, Cheshire, UK]

I wonder how many people are in my shoes.

I didn't want to go to university, I knew I wouldn't get into Oxbridge, although being naturally bright and having an I.Q. over 130, because I didn't put the work in at GCSE, not getting 11A*'s didn't go down well with my parents who thought of me as lazy, and couldn't see myself working hard enough at A Level.

So I was faced with what do I do when I leave 6th form. I told my parents who insisted I go to university, probably because they did and the amount they spent on my education which seemed geared for higher education.

I applied for a few banking training positions that didn't require a degree and had starting salaries of over £20,000 earning £60,000 upon completion of the training schemes. Applied for a few international companies that would split my time in the UK with time abroad learning a language, again paying quite well.

I didn't get anything, I didn't want to learn a trade and I'm now at university - largely I don't want to be here but I got pressured into it. I feel it is like a bad comprehensive school with little input and feedback from people who are meant to be teaching students and, mostly, the people here are the wrong types - at university for the life style rather than a degree.

The value of a degree has gone down by all the pointless degrees and the pointless (former poly) universities. It isn't what it used to be and that needs to be addressed. University needs to be more expensive, course range lowered. It shouldn't be for everyone it should be for those who want to challenged academically or for people going into law or medicine.

There should be colleges or training centers for diplomas for some courses rather than degrees. As that has left with the oversaturation of the graduate job market.

I really wish I had found out about a website like this much earlier, it could have helped me stay out of university and find the right job that I could get qualified and paid but since I am here I may as well finish my degree, the plus side is my parents are paying for it so I don't have the burden of debt.

[Daniel, Cheshire, UK]

I am attending a top 20 university and top 5 for my course - just wanted to make that clear.

Having read the comments I think the idea of goign to university later is something that should be put through in schools more rather than go to university this year or 'take a gap' then go as though those are the only options. I also would like to know what Manchester Metropolitan University is doing commenting on an article that is trying to get away from doing "Mickey Mouse" degrees from that kind of instiution.

[Brianna]

I am an HR Manager and responsible for recruitment in an industry that is highly sought after by candidates/graduates.

Give me a non-graduate with common sense and the ability to do simple artithmetic, and I'll take them over a graduate without those skills any day!!

[Ben]

Tom - your website should really be required reading for all 17-18 year olds who are considering weighing the pros and cons of a university education. The problem is that university is now expected as part and parcel of education. A 'typical' child is expected to do 2 years of GCSE, progress to 2 years of A Level and finally a 3/4 year undergraduate degree. The current trend appears to see a fourth element - the postgraduate degree tailed on by the end of the decade.

The problem isn't so much a university education per se. A degree is valuable in that it teaches some useful skills that cannot always be translated into earning power. However, degrees are now, unfortunately, touted for their earning potential rather than the academic potential. This is where the Government, and many other organisations, have made their fundamental mistake. The old adage 'you need a degree to get a decent job' has stuck. With young people becoming more *academically* qualified (note that isn't the same as being more intelligent/clever than their predecessors) it is becoming harder and harder to choose between equally qualified students.

On this point, that is where I would argue that your website is worth looking at. If universities/schools/Government were more honest and did not always use the equation uni=degree=excellent job=money, then the numbers in higher education would drop significantly. The recession is already displacing this myth. The graduate employment market was never a sustainable one, there were never enough graduate jobs (even twenty-thirty years ago) and people have (and will always be) disappointed.

Perhaps people should recall that students at university once went into higher education to READ a particular subject. Until the worth of a degree (which is deemed to be near the pinnacle of our qualification framework) is de-coupled from any potential financial worth, things will never change.

However, universities themselves have become more business-orientated - students are referred to as consumers/customers. Education should be separated from business. Some honesty on this point would go a long way.

[Alan]

Of course you shouldn't go to Uni if you don't think it's for you. Is that really some sort of relevation nowadays? Just goes to show why there's far far too many students when there should only be half of what we currently have.

[Kayleigh]

I am 23 years old, and did not go to University. I did well in my GCSEs and A Levels, but decided not to go to University. At college, I was made to feel that University was the only option after A Levels. There are plenty of subjects I would have loved to studied, but the fees are just a bit too high to study something just because you fancy it!

I volunteered for a year to gain some experience and see what kind of work I enjoyed, with the intention of going to University after that, but managed to get what I considered was a well paid job that I loved. I have progressed through my organisation, am earning more than my recently graduated friends and have gained many different skills.

I now have a better idea of what I want from the future, and am planning to study for a degree now I know what I want and what subject will suit me.

I think the pressure is on for college leavers to go straight to University, and a lot of my friends just picked a course from a prospectus. Many of them dropped out, and are now discovering what they really want to do and going back to study a suitable course. If you're not sure, hang back and try a few different things.

[ALBERT]

As a graduate, and somebody who has actually gained much from University in terms of ability to think analytically as well as gained experiences that somebody from my background wouldn't normally experience, I couldn't recommend University enough.

However...

Looking back three years from graduation (almost to the day) I now realise that, if I had the choice now, I would opt for a career in Law as opposed to the Business and Politics studies I entertained for three years. And that is only because, having worked in Banking for the past three years, I now realise that the legal side of things is the one that interests me the most.

On the other hand, I know for a fact that I would not have had the career I've enjoyed so far without my degree.

I think age it's the factor. For as much as a 19-year-old may know about him/her-self, experience is the true maker. In an ideal world, we'd all gain experience and then pursue our academic refinement at a slightly older age. It is just not always possible.

[Naomi]

I didn't go to university, though my partner did. Though 2 years above me at school, he is earning just £2,000 a year more than me with 2 hours a day more travelling time. Of my 7 close friends who went to uni, only 2 of them earn more than me, and I am the only one to own her own home. Some of them still live with their parents.
My parents were also horrified when I said I wasn't going to uni, but they have completely changed their tune 5 years on.
I 100% agree, there is far too little information for intelligent people who want other options, and too much of a stigma attached to not going to uni.
Not all naturally intelligent people are naturally studious, and some prefer to gain their life experience in otherways. Similarly, not everyone with a degree these days is necessarily very intelligent (the spelling mistakes on some CV's say it all!!)

[Sandy]

The advice is curious. Why would one follow the advice of someone based on an experience he hasn't had?

[Liz]

Neither decision about university - going or not going - should make you think you can walk into a job. Why do you deserve it? If you don't get it, maybe you should be humble and think what you didn't do well enough, instead of blaming the system. The writer of this article has clearly given the matter some thought.

In contrast - Daniel, you didn't want to learn a trade. You didn't want to go to university. You hadn't learnt a language (or at least, that's what needing to learn one on the job suggests), and you didn't bother to apply for jobs earning less than 20 grand. So why on earth would anyone want to hire you?

(And, btw, I have been advised that someone with an IQ in the region of 130 would be likely to struggle at Oxbridge. So maybe you're not so 'naturally bright' as you think.)

[Bill]

University should be an option only for those who have true intellectual yearning and ability.

It is not supposed to be merely a next step for school leavers - it is supposed to foster and encourage academic excellence and research amongst the top minds of a generation.

As a retired teacher, I can say with at least some conviction that a student required considerably more academic rigour and basic intelligence to get into a university 20 years ago than they do now.

A colleague of mine who lectures at university told me recently that the entire first year of many degrees was intended to bring students up to what was A Level standard 20 years ago - meaning that what was 3rd year study 20 years ago is now just left out!

The principle problem is that we have too many people to try and employ. A reduction in population of 10 million or so would be very helpful in a number of respects.

[oneopinionatedmother]

@roo -

ifyou had wanted to work in Taiwan, you'd have needed your degree for the work visa.

Same for a mainland 'experts' status.

enjoy Japan!

[BA (hons) 2.1]

Why are people still considering getting a degree? It costs thousands, is time consuming, frustrating and ultimately futile.
A degree will not get you a job, nor will it boost your income. There is no money-back guarantee - there is not even any guarantee that your lecturers will lecture coherently and subsequently mark your essays promptly and to a good standard.
The lifetime income figure trotted out on these occasions is based on a longitudinal study started in the 1960s. Any fule kno that this is as irrelevant to today's jobs market as an ability to use an oldfashioned typewriter.
There are 2 million students in the UK, voluntarily absenting themselves temporarily from the unemployment statistics and funding the University lecturers' research and publication. How many of the 2 million will end up unemployed or underemployed? What percentage of all graduates are currently unemployed compared to non-graduates?

[Having a laugh]

Thank you, Daniel from Cheshire, for the biggest laugh of the day! You really are priceless.

[Daniel, Cheshire, UK]

To Liz,

I am fluent in German having lived there for four years. I wanted a job with HSBC where you learn Chinese whilst working for them splitting your time with three moths in the UK followed by three months in China throughout the course.

All the £20k jobs I applied for were for school leavers that were full-time employment training schemes. At any point did I say I applied for jobs that paid less? No, they were just main ones I considered given I would get qualifications.

With regards to my I.Q. I said over 130, as your friend who knows a lot about I.Q.'s and Oxbridge could tell you, your I.Q. is split into different categories. My cognitive I.Q. is over 140 my written I.Q. is in the region of mid 120's, my verbal I.Q. is in the region of 130 and so on.

I think you would be better off reading the Daily Mail, Liz.

[Aishi]

I had rather go to university than be stuck at a call centre/restaurant job,at least with a degree you know some day even if not now, you can get a good enough job,every one i know who has been to university ended up with better jobs with high income in the long run, it is an investment and a great experience, in most countries you need to have a degree to apply for managerial position

[Average Joe]

What a great article!

I left college with a B and 2 C's at A-level, joined the Armed Forces as an officer at 18, and was hired into a well known investment bank - against the prevailing economic conditions.

In my limited experience people hire the person sat opposite them - not on length of resume, degrees and prior titles. Especially not on IQ - which I love seeing quoted here!

Prospective uni students - think carefully now about how you will differentiate yourself from the thousands like you with identical CV's. How would you add more value to a firm than the other guy?

Financially, i am better off by about 80k so far by not going to uni. I'm no graduate but that's about 40k per letter.

[JRS]

Average Joe - now you're talking - the Armys officer training scheme develops the kind of outstanding individual the universities used to nurture many moons ago. This is the calibre of Higher Education system we need in the UK, otherwise the only degree worth having will be one from Oxford or Cambridge.

[Whimsey]

"I left college with a B and 2 C's at A-level, joined the Armed Forces as an officer at 18, and was hired into a well known investment bank - against the prevailing economic conditions."

So, fortunate there not to get killed during that inconvenient Active Service interval between studying and banking....

These days, I wouldn't advise anyone to join the army. Sadly, there's a lot worse than travel and water-skiing to it now.

Navy might be relatively safe still.

[Liz]

Daniel, you come across as if you want life handed to you on a plate. Bleating about it won't help. Neither will an enlarged sense of entitlement. Unfortunately for your sense of superiority, I work with psychology reports in my research and am pretty familiar with IQ tests. I suggest you find an introductory psychology book in your local library, which might help you to understand why people are laughing at you. In all seriousness: why are you complaining? What have you done to carve out a rewarding position in life?

However, suggestions for reading matter are always appreciated. I'm having a little difficulty tracking down a copy of the Daily Mail in the Bodleian, but when I do I'll let you know if I need help understanding it.

[Paul]

I left university three years ago, a 2:1 in Biochemistry, then I went onto take a PGCE. Now I'm a chemistry teacher at a grammar school on £85,000 a year, my fellow teachers who chose the non-university route, one who is also a chemistry teacher are on £35,000 a year. Next year I will be the deputy head, meaning my salary will be over £100,000 a year

The course the author is wishing to take is a LPC, which requires a law degree to be completed before hand.

[oneopinionatedmother]

@ daniel. no-one here will be impressed by IQ.

it is like showing your willy: if yo were that pleased with it, you wouldn't need to expose it to everyone.

[having a laugh]

Liz: had a quick look on Mail on-line, but couldn't find any pieces about silly boys with underwhelming GCSEs landing fabulous jobs ... or about over-indulged children who have done lots of IQ tests (why?) but over-developed self-importance.

[Liz]

Mmm, funny that ...

[Cathy]

Paul: 'I left university three years ago, a 2:1 in Biochemistry, then I went onto take a PGCE. Now I'm a chemistry teacher at a grammar school on £85,000 a year, my fellow teachers who chose the non-university route, one who is also a chemistry teacher are on £35,000 a year. Next year I will be the deputy head, meaning my salary will be over £100,000 a year'

You're saying you earn £50 000 more than a comparable contemporary who didn't do a PGCE? Did this person do a BEd? That counts as university, you know. Or is s/he unqaulified and are you talking about an independent school? This sounds grossly unfair, especially to me, who was clearly born too soon. Waaaaaah!

[Sal]

If you have a degree you won't have to work in a callcentre? REALLY?? I left Uni in '91, just as the economy took a dip. I could not get a graduate job and ended up in shops and callcentres for several years. I was even turned down for a basic clerical post as I had no experience! I worked through my degree but did not have to pay fees so left with no debts. I am now a teacher (have been for 8 years) but I certainly don't earn the £85K that Paul claims (he has his facts wrong too - his friend who teaches chemistry for £35k must have qualified and gone through threshold so is highly likely to have a degree - as you cannot qualify as a teacher nowadays without one). No state school teacher earns that money within 3 years (and no state school teacher ever earns it unless they become a head)
I think the article shows that there IS an alternative to going to uni. Good luck to Tom and others who decide to postpone (or avoid) uni because it is not for them at 18.

[starling]

I know someone who has a degree in physics, Paul, and his career has pretty much been the same as yours. He's now the head of the physics department at a very famous girl's school. It definitely does pay to study, but you have to choose the right subject.

[Paul]

Cathy, ours worked as science technicians, then teaching assistants, after that they did the odd short course at the local college so they are allowed to teach, and very good at it. No official teaching qualifications, but they do have to teach before a PGCE lecturer to be deemed fit to teach. Transferring to another school would be very difficult for them though as getting an interview in teaching is dependent on having at least a degree and a PGCE.

At our school (it's a grammar) your wage is dependent on your type of degree and what results you obtained, most English teachers for example wont go past the £40,000 mark, where (around here at least) science teachers earn at least £60,000 a year once they have completed their first five years of official teaching.

[Sceptical]

Great article, really makes the point that Uni isn't the be all and end all (btw, I went, had a great time and have no regrets).

JRS - Yes, I think there are skills that are best learned in the real world & too many courses do not prepare students for business life.

Daniel - Grow up!

Paul - I don't believe you, I take it you've been teaching for 2 years? Very few people earn that sort of money with so little experience and they certainly do not in the teaching profession.

Lets not let devalue the debate about this great article with silly comments!!

[Cathy]

Paul: I see. Unqualified, then.

Perhaps I should be at your school. I have a second from Oxford, an MEd and a PhD. Funnily enough, I prefer to teach the youngest and least advantaged children. More fool me! Just as well I don't need to worry too much about money or status... as the quantity of both I receive are pretty paltry.

[David]

The shoe has to fit,I went to uni after a year out and enjoyed it, got a good degree and great extra curricular and life experience. I wouldnt change a thing now work in the job ive always wanted with a friend who left school after A levels and did an audio engineering course whilst working at sainsburys. We get on well and have both suceeded.
University is not just about the direct education,there are many opportunities to be taken that will impress employers but if its not for you there are other ways to impress employers. If you wnat the job then you have to get it,whatever way you go about it.
Life cannot be mapped out but it is good to see a sensible person weighing up the options and making educated decisions,that is what seems to be lacking.

[JH]

I have to say, all this talk of money makes me very sad. It seems that the majority of people here base their level of 'success' on the amount of money they earn, specifically how much MORE money they earn compared to their peers. Don't get me wrong, earning more money does indicate some level of acheievment, but by no means means you have 'succeeded' in life or are bound for happiness. Gone are the days where finding the love of your life, raising a family, enjoying your life are the reasons to live. Getting a job to earn money is just a necessity invented by man to be able to eat and do things to enjoy life. If you are working so hard that you're not enjoying yourself, reagrdless of how much that can buy you, its undoing the good work you are trying to do.. if you understand me. For example there would not be a need to book a 5 star 'de-stressing' spa holiday, if you hadn't gotten yourself stressed in the first place earning money to go on said holiday...

Anyway, back on topic, i think it is the indicator of our society that people veiw university as the way into a job. It should be the complete opposite! University is there to continue to learn about a subject that you love, a place where you can increase a passion for ACADEMIA. If you don't love to learn and study then there is zero point in going. If you are going to get the skills needed to get a specific job it defeats the object!

There should be greater distinction between a place to continue to study a subject and a place to learn specific skills.

Young people are being shepparded into University by just being told (not just by schools, but by the media, society, parents) that that is what you have to do, what is the norm.

I'm currently at Cambridge studying Engineering and there have been times when I have wondered why i didn't just get an apprenticeship. I was perhaps one of the co-erced few who felt they were just expected to go on to reach their potential, without stopping and thinking whether i actually enjoy learning.
Personally, i am loving every minute of University (and no, not just because of the constant partying as- beleive it or not- Cambridge leaves very little time to party. But don't get me wrong, we work hard, play hard, then get up again at 9am to start it all again) but because it is stretching me in ways i never thought i would. It is the hardest thing i have ever done in my life, but now i am learning what i'm capable of.

Therefore, i think University should be re advertised as a place for learning. Not a place 'to gain life skills'- as though getting a job straight out of School means you'll never be able to work a washing machine, or EVER make friends, or eat pot noodles..

[martyn]

all you do all your life is repeat the behaviour of other mind morons blinded by the spin and come up with no new ideas on life at all, no wonder the planet is in a mess.