Richard's story - is he really unsuitable to teach because of previous mental health problems?

Today is the launch of Time to Change, an ambitious programme to end discrimination faced by people with mental health problems. Why am I writing about this on School Gate? Well, it's because anyone can suffer from mental health problems, whether child, parent or teacher, and that means all can be discriminated against as well.

According to the Social Exclusion Unit, over 60 percent of employers say they would not consider employing someone with a history of mental illness. However, 85 percent of employers who do employ someone with a mental health problem are very satisfied. (Royal College of Psychiatrist: Mental Health and Work)

Richard* is one of those who has suffered direct discrimination on a number of occasions. This 28-year-old has always wanted to be a teacher, but despite a history degree from Oxford, post graduate diploma in psychology and years of experience volunteering with children who have learning disabilities, he has not been able to find the work he wants. He is currently involved in legal action, so needs to remain anonymous, but his story should make you think hard about mental health and the decision some people take without really thinking them through.

Here is his story:

"I am more than qualified for a teaching assistant's course at my local college. The interview was going extremely well, with the lady saying that I would make an excellent male role model, until I mentioned my mental health condition.

Everything turned around immediately, suddenly I wasn't allowed on the course. The woman interviewing me said that I wouldn't be allowed near children and that I'd never find a placement. She advised I go and stack shelves in Tesco, which wasn't what I wanted to do.

This experience hit me hard, but in fact, I had no difficulty finding a placement - I got a list of local schools, and the first head teacher I phoned took me on immediately. I have now been at the same school for over two years. Although I have experienced bipolar psychosis in the past, I've been in a stable condition for some time now.

Last December, I decided to pursue a teaching career, and applied to do a Primary PGCE. I was interviewed, but my application was unsuccessful. Since I'm highly qualified and have experience of working with children, I appealed. The university upheld their original decision, but refused to offer any justification.

I contacted a solicitor, who managed to get hold of copies of the interview transcripts. These showed that, contrary to the university's claims, I outperformed a number of students who had been accepted onto the course. However, the words "advise on mental health" were the only thing written in the 'reasons for rejection' box on my application form. While I passed all areas of the assessment the university decided that I was "unsuitable" to be a teacher.

They did ask if I had any health condition at interview, and I disclosed my mental health condition, emphasising that I was stable and that I was in no doubt that I was able to complete the course and work as a teacher. They asked no further questions, and I assumed that everything was OK as they raised no concerns. After deciding I was "unsuitable" and requesting advice on my mental health on the interview transcript they did not contact me or ask any further questions, nor did they approach my doctors or Consultant.

It was an arbitrary judgement, I've instructed a barrister, and expect the case to come to court soon.

They're crying out for male primary school teachers, but there is a lot of sexism. A man with a mental health condition who wants to work with young children faces extreme stigma and prejudice.  Basically, they assume you're a threat and danger to children.  I don't have a criminal record and I do have a clear Enhanced CRB check, but Child Protection policies are a minefield and there is an awful lot of fear, especially when working with young children.

Although I am doing to continue to fight my case, I'm becoming resigned to the idea that I may never have a career as a primary school teacher. I've started to apply for jobs in psychology, but once again am facing discrimination. I have not been offered any interviews, despite the employers in question operating a Guaranteed Interview Scheme - which should mean anyone with a disability who meets the necessary criteria, as I do, is offered an interview.

I encountered a similar situation four years ago, when first applying for jobs as an assistant psychologist following my postgraduate diploma. I was never offered an interview. Now, however, I am aware of legislation surrounding discrimination, feeling well again, and am determined to put up a fight.

It's all very well for them to advertise that they're an equal opportunities employer or a Double Tick employer, but they plainly don't honour these things, employers may be making progress on employing people with physical disabilities, but rarely think about mental health.

If someone's blind or in a wheelchair it's so much easier to judge what they can do and what you can do to help.  Mental health is hidden - you don't know what their condition is, what treatment they're having, if they've been sectioned.The drop-down menus on online application forms don't properly cover mental health and 'reasonable adjustments' are limited to aiding physical disabilities.

If you tick the boxes that say you have a mental health condition, do you go straight into the 'no' pile?  What particularly irritates and disappoints me is that some of these rejections are from mental health trusts. If they don't get it, who will?"

----------Time to Change is England’s most ambitious programme "to end the discrimination faced by people with mental health problems, and improve the nation’s wellbeing".  Mind and Rethink are leading the programme, funded with £16m from the Big Lottery Fund and £2m from Comic Relief, and evaluated by the Institute of Psychiatry at King’s College, London.

For further information go to www.time-to-change.org.uk

*Names have been changed due to legal reasons.

Read School Gate:

Do children need more male primary school teachers?

Comments

[Dawn Willis]

Richard story I know well, and have met him! Not a monster, not scary, not going to eat the children, just a decent hard-working man - like anyone else!

It really is TIME employers look at the real reasons why someone is applying for a post - usually because they are qualified to do it, and CHANGE their attitudes towards Mental wellbeing. Having diabetes, arthritis etc are not conditions which would mean this man couldn't work in this position, his mental health equally should have no bearing either.

The question should not be asked on an application form in the first place!

[Jos]

Richard, I wish you every success in your court case. Discrimination and stigma against people with mental health conditions is still rife.
Speaking as a parent with two young children, I would have no qualms having you teaching my children. You probably have more insight into what stress can do and more ability to take action early than a teacher who has not gone through your life experiences. Keep fighting!

[Tooyoung]

Very sad - I wish Richard well and congratulate him on his achievements so far.

I am curious to see what the condition is though. I'm not trying to justify discrimination, but there is a huge spectrum of mental illness and I would guess that perhaps some problems could pose a potential risk to others if not monitored.

Perhaps if everyone was more aware of different conditions and the varying severity of them, there would be less discrimination? There's nothing like fear of the unknown to bring out prejudice.

[Cathy]

I have every sympathy for Richard and I do hope that he can win this case and do the job he's obviously more than qualified to do. We need men like him, especially in primary schools.

I suspect that at some point someone's asked a question at the wrong time. I say this because I suffer from bipolar disorder and it doesn't seem to have held me back. OK it's mild and my meds keep me stable, and I'm able to tailor my workload to suit my health; but it sounds as if Richard too has things under control. I imagine the difference is that at no point was I asked about my mental health at interview. I was anxious about disclosing it the first time I completed a medical questionnaire but have always been completely transparent (on paper) and nothing has been said. I wonder why this is?

The awful events in Mansfield last week are going to make this worse, I fear, as it sounds as if the teacher concerned had been suffering some sort of mental stress if not chronic illness. Perhaps there will be an informed debate. I doubt it.

[Cathy]

Tooyoung: Bipolar disorder is usually completely treatable and is especially manageable if (like me) the sufferer has a supportive family member or spouse who can spot the warning signs and isn't afraid to speak out! I have it fairly mildly unlike my late mother who had two spectacular manic episodes which were funny rather than dangerous to anyone. She too was a teacher and like me was, while in the 'hypomanic' (mildly 'high') state, the life and soul of any party and a wonderfully inspiring teacher. Management seems to be the key. The main risk to the mentally ill and the public comes when patients refuse/forget to medicate.

I agree with you about public perception. The word 'mad' doesn't want to go away.

[apples]

Hi Richard,

Good luck with your case and well done for fighting. These prejudiced idiots cannot be allowed to get away with this behaviour.

To those people who have refused Richard opportunities on the basis of his conidition - you should be utterly ashamed. People who are intolerant and prejudiced are the worst and most despicable people in society.

[kezzer]

Shocking story....as stated,anyone of us can have a mental health issue...it can be caused by stress,divorce,berievement etc...if you are fit and well and functional..there shouldnt be a problem...same discrimination against Epilepsy...its totally wrong and backward!Good luck mate..lots of support here...!

[Andrew Milner]

Time to fly the coop, Dick.
Face it, who in their right senses would want to teach in today's UK?
Asian century, check it.

[Peter]

What's the problem? We're ALL mad one way or another.

[Jayne]

When I applied to train as a teacher the health requirements were quite stringent to get on the course and I was lucky to do so.

However, like many teachers I succumbed to ill health by the time I hit 35. The stress, the term time hours, and the constant illnesses overwhelmed me.

If I'd known then what I know now I would have chosen another career from the outset. If you think teachers' skills are undervalued in schools, you should see how little they're valued when you're trying to find a new career in your late 30s.

[Alexei]

In my schooldays (1950's), most teachers appeared to be getting a bit loose about the top storey!

[Tom]

I hate to be the meanie, but I'm fed up to the eyeballs with well-meaning people making stupid judgements. The school is quite rightly responsible for its pupils safety--and parents wouldn't send their children to them if this weren't so. Teaching is a stressful job--so stressful these days that it can drive anyone mad.

Anyone who has ever had a position of responsibility for hiring and firing will understand that bosses can't afford to take chances. It might be one thing to give Richard a chance working in a job which didn't involve children, but imagine the consequences if he had a breakdown in front of a class.

For one reason or another, most of us are unsuited to a whole host of occupations. That's just the way life is.

[ACS]

My school employs a teacher with bipolar disorder. Despite occasional extended absences, he is an excellent and inspiring teacher, greatly appreciated by his students and attaining extremely good GCSE and A-level results each year. I am appalled to learn of this type of discrimination.

[Lucy w/o Kids]

Tom dear, I think you'll find the crux of the argument is that Richard isn't 'mad'. 'Mad' implies rage, as well as mental instability, and it's a deliberately provocative term. The man has medically controlled bipolar disorder; he also has a degree, a psychology qualification and a CRB check.

[Jos]

Tom,

Yes, teaching is a stressful job. However, there is NO evidence to show that someone with well controlled bipolar disorder is more likely to succumb to stress than someone without such a history. Cathy makes the point very eloquently indeed. People like her and Richard have valuable experience in identifying early warning signs and acting on them, which means they will be less likely to get to the point where they snap in front of a class full of children. What happened to Richard is blatant discrimination, and you are an example of why we need to do a lot more work to remove the prejudices people like you still hold about what mental illness is. I've worked in mental health for years - not in a clinical capacity - and have worked with service users too. The idea that once you've had an episode of mental illness you're always going to have another is just plain wrong and I'm very sad to read that there are still people who believe the contrary.

[Sharon]

Richard's 'problem' is honesty. I'm bipolar and in most of us it's very easily managed with CBT and medication- however I've not taken my medication for years because to do so would leave a trace on my med record and prevent me from getting insurance and work. I'm not the only one.I've been warned that without treatment my condition (which harms only myself)will get worse but what can I do? I have mild highs and depressions but I have to try to cope on my own or I can't support/house my child- and being out of work makes me worse.I work with lots of people in my industry who display similar symptoms to mine but are not diagnosed! The ignorance on mental health issues and terminology is astonishing and we are losing a lot of very talented and able people as a result

[Cathy]

Sharon: I'm really very sorry to hear that. I hope you find the CBT helpful - I do, very. Isn't it possible for a helpful doctor to prescribe for something else? I know that sounds odd, but one of my meds is commonly prescribed for depression and the other for epilepsy. Or would you risk discrimination if you had those on your records, anyway?? I'm appalled. I really don't know how I've managed - I've signed up for three supply agencies recently and been quite honest on their questionnaires. Maybe they weren't properly read! I do wish you all the best - here's hoping you continue to cope so brilliantly on your own. But you shouldn't have to.

[Sarah]

As long as this man's condition is stable then he is no danger to anyone.

We have 2 people in our department who have ongoing health problems: one has had cancer 3 times and the other had severe depression.
In both instances we've made changes to their working conditions to enable them to work effectively. Both bring valuable experience & knowledge to the workplace and I (I am the line manager of the person with depression) would not like to lose either of them.

Mental illness is on a par with physical illness in the vast majority of cases. If controlled (and periods of sickness are not too often or prolonged) then this should be no bar to getting a job.

[Hattie]

Within time to change there is also the initiative Open Up, which works against discrimination of mental distress. If you want to apply to take part, go here: http://www.open-up.org.uk/

[Hol]

The temptation when hearing the words "mental health disorder" is to immediately imagine somebody in the middle of a raging paranoid delusion who might pick up a knife and stab somebody at any minute. Now, there are such people out there and of course you'd quite rightly never give somebody diagnosed as being in that condition a job working with children, but we have got to get away from this idea that all mental health disorders leave you a raging loony and unfit to be anywhere near the rest of society.

There are a number of mental health disorders, like bipolar or depression, which do not need to pose that problem so long as the proper ongoing treatment and assessments are made. Bipolar is a manageable problem and all it takes is a bit of co-operation with the school.

You can't just look the disorder up on Google or speak to any old doctor and decide whether or not the candidate is suitable for a teaching post. You need to talk to his/her own doctors who have in depth knowledge of the individual case

[Jake]

Tom, so "anyone who has ever had a position of responsibility for hiring and firing will understand that bosses can't afford to take chances."

If that is the case then we should be ashamed as a country. Do you think that we achieved what we did as a country in the 20th century by taking the safe option, by not "taking any chances"?!

Employers must take chances, or be forced to by law, otherwise people who have criminal convictions, mental health issues, who have been fired, etc, will basically be on the scrapheap for the rest of their lives!

The people responsible for hiring and firing would certainly be fired by me if I thought they were behaving in the way you suggested!

[Helen]

There are enough people out there who do think that you should be on the scrapheap if you have illnesses or have committed crimes in the past. I do think that spent convictions should remain spent whatever career you are applying for unless they resulted in a jail sentence. At least then you would stop heads/LAs preventing people from becoming teachers who once stole something. It has no bearing on your suitability to work with children, which is about the child's safety from abuse, but those reviewing CRB forms seem to completely miss this point, despite guidance to the contrary.

If someone thinks that a person is unsuitable to work with kids because they have a 20 year old shoplifting conviction then god help anyone with mental health problems. I hope Richard is successful in his claim.

[David]

Tom - I recruit, for a professional services organisation. Given the choce between a history of treated mental health problems, and someone who displayed your manifest ignorance and prejudice, you would lose I am afraid.

[A]

Does it compromise his case now that someone who knows him has come on this forum and used his real name, even though he should remain anonymous?
That person, and the Times should know better!

[Henny Penny]

Bipolar personality disorder is an EXTREMELY rare condition and is overdiagnosed as it's been the flavour of the month for several years. Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) on the other hand affects some 4 to 5 percent of the female population, but is unknown to most social workers, psychologists and psychiatrists.

[Lena]

Hello A,
I can't see where Richard's "real name" is used as you say? So how has he been compromised? What have you seen that I haven't?

[Katy]

This may be somewhat controversial but I can't help thinking that Richard is perhaps over-attributing unsuccessful applications to his illness. He is by no means alone in not getting interviews for assistant psychologist posts - these are notoriously competitive roles and attract literally hundreds of applicants. Chances are there were simply other applicants who had more relevant experience, which carries a lot of weight in relation to psychology posts. I don't believe that everything can be blamed on a diagnosis of mental illness - and I say that as someone who is diagnosed with recurrent depressive disorder going through the process of applying for jobs in psychology. Sometimes we have to look hard at and within ourselves instead of automatically assuming that our lack of success is down to other people's attitudes.

[Jos]

@Katy,

The main thrust of this article is not about Richard's application for an assistant psychologist place - which I agree is a very competitive field - but the way his application for teacher training was rejected, which was blatantly discriminatory.

[Serial Insomniac]

Whilst I am disgusted by what happened to Richard, I am not surprised. Despite being a double graduate myself, I have never been able to get a decent job because, I am convinced, of my mental health issues. It has nothing to do with my intellect or ability to do the job. Unfortunately this then perpetuates some of the mental health problems!

I eventually did get a job in a mental health charity, but it was mainly administrative in nature and I am even about to lose it due to a recent breakdown. To be fair, even an organisation of this nature can't hold a job open indefinitely, but you'd have thought they if all people would be very reasonable.

Point is, mental health discrimination in employment is still STRONGLY prevalent, despite the high intelligence and functioning of many of those that have exhibited mental health difficulties. Such discrimination does not exist strongly for physical disabilities.

I wish Richard all the very best with his legal action and his future career, and salute his bravery and determination in pursuing the matter.

[Helen F]

Having worked in Local Authority HR for almost a decade, I can offer some reasons for this blatant discrimination.

Education has become an incredibly risk-averse profession: everyone worries (quite unreasonably) about being sued at some time in the future by parents or pupils if a wrong selection decision is made now. Education appointments have become cautious and conservative and someone at all 'risky' (i.e. in any way different) is very hard to place, unless the post is in a very deprived area, a shortage subject or in a failing school.

When all other things are equal, the least challenging, or least troublesome candidate will virtually always be appointed.

None of this excuses discrimination; but it sometimes explains it.

[john Doe]

Interesting article. My boss pushed and pushed me until I 'cracked' and was then ill for a number of months with depression. She got promoted and when I returned to work I was demoted and my salary was cut. They know I could never get another job due to now having a record of mental illness so they can do what they like. I work in IT.

[fatima]

half the people I work with in school are on medication for one thing or another.

[Roy Everett]

Much as I have sympathy with the people whose behaviour makes them liable to be diagnosed with various disorders, a blanket evangelical non-discriminatory initiative will generate problems. There remain serious problems to the organisation that discovers they are employing them. In my thirty years in management with all sizes of company I have both been managed by and had to manage such people. This includes being off work for months at a time, erratic unpredictable absences, disruptive behaviour with colleagues, extreme mood swings, bizarre behaviour, persecution issues, hypomania, depression, OCD, and making highly non-PC racist and sexist communications during a paranoid spell (which offended the HR department far more than the colleagues!) Cover has to be arranged (especially in teaching, and at short notice), a small company can break up, a medium company can go bankrupt, a large company has to answer to its shareholders, and government departments and quangos have artificial efficiency targets to hit. The blame-culture risk-averse of the public sector spawns witch-hunts for the recruitment staff ("who employed this woman in the first place?") and corrective action ("never again in my department!"). Cannot some pre-contract deal be done with the Benefits Agency at least to split the financial burden, so that we can get a middle road between the permanent disability benefit culture and the enforced anti-discrimination culture?

[Mike]

'One cannot teach a man anything.

One can only help him find what is within himself.'

Galileo.

If it can't be done, why should it makes much difference if the wannabe has mental health problems?
Why stop him trying?

[Bill C]

I have periodic severe bouts of depression and anxiety. Usually there has been some causative event that has acted as a trigger -and these have occasionally occurred as the result of issues in my teaching career (always not of my own making).

At my last school, where I was a department chairman, I had to take a medical leave for half a year due to depression that was caused by working with an administration who lied to me over and over again.

I designed new courses for my teachers to help lower achieving students, was praised for doing so, promised these would be put into effect. Despite all-round approval I found that the none of these recommendations had been followed up on. This was just a single situation out of many. I became ill and had to take a medical leave of absence for nearly half a year. At the end of that year, I was asked to return the following year but, I found that the administration had done nothing to help my department (or other departments), I refused and resigned and have not taught for the past five years.

My doctors advised me not to return to teaching. I taught high school for 29 years and had an excellent reputation as a teacher and a department head but lies, false promises and obfuscation became to much for me.

My experience is different from the ones described by others and by the article but perhaps shows some of the reasons for avoiding the teaching profession in this day and age. I have other health issues such as limited mobility but none of my conditions have ever hindered me from being offered jobs.

My point is that teaching is a very demanding career that has become more so over the years. Despite having excellent skills and preparation, perhaps some who have mental health issues would be better served if they looked to other equally stimulating and exciting careers that fit an individual's emotional, mental and physical needs better than teaching.

I have also known many teachers over the years who have taught extremely well with difficult medical issues -a colleague of mine had inner ear problems that would cause him to lose his balance and fall and yet was an outstanding teacher.

I still teach, but as a tutor, and own my own small tutoring business. I make the rules, am fair and honest, am answerable to our clients, and teach under ideal conditions that enable me to continue my career.
I have a much smaller income but have found a way that is a far better fit for me in every way.

[Grace]

Been there, got the T-shirt, and several solicitors later I now lie my way through every application process I can. My respect goes out to Richard for being honest and fighting it out.

[Brian Lewis]

My main worry after analysing many political, social and economic problems controlled by the UK government is that no one in authority is prepared to justify these decisions which at first sight seem quite arbitrary and have little justification. Who is in charge?

[David]

I have just been turned down for a TA position. The reason implied that I am over-qualified as a newly-qualified teacher. This despite being the only one with concrete school experience and being more than willing to take on the role and having a lessr wage. The government want to make teaching a Masters level profession yet those with degrees and experience can't get support roles against either mothers (the job fits around childcare) or new graduates (don't know what they want to do as a career). Strange.
I've diverted of topic but I wish "Richard" all the best

[Rob]

As a small business owner I would not employ anyone with a history of significant mental health issues. A small bout of depression somewhere in the past would not give me any concern, but bipolar and schizophrenia are conditions that make me avoid the person both socially and in the business environment.

I have enough experience with persons who have bipolar and schizophrenia to know that the issue goes well beyond being described as an illness. A person with a physical illness or disability can still be very professional and a joy to be around, and can be trusted. Persons with mental illness are socially offensive and untrustable, as the illness affects their personality and value system.

There are enough people who have had negative experiences with the mentally ill that we can't be swayed by dissimulation strategies that attempt to portray mental illness as "just another illness". For instance, bipolar disorder seems to be increasingly described as "asshole disorder" amongst us non-psychiatrists. Who wants to associate with an asshole?

It is not true that "just anyone" can get a mental illness. Such claims are the result of the misuse of statistics. Persons with mental illnesses aquire those illnesses very, very gradually over time until they pass the threshold that permits diagnosis. In the entire time leading up to the diagnosis, if a good history of the person is available, it is clear that they have displayed unethical behavior for quite some time before the symptoms became extreme. Also, in most cases it can be seen from their history that someone, often a parent, had screwed up their heads.

People with mental illness ususally have a similar world view that does not work well for employers - they tend to be entitlement oriented and socialist/marxist in perspective, and quite often hedonistic. Few if any would say they like the perspectives of Ayn Rand or Plato, which are both strength and self-control based worldviews.

Business is the realm of the strong, and a business performs best when both management and employees are strong and have a strength based value system.

The weak and dysfunctional in society almost always have, as one would expect, a world view that demonizes and resents the strong. That is understandable, and also undesirable.

If the mentally ill are ever to be cured, and I think some have been, I think it is very important and helpful for them to honestly recognize that they annoy and depress others with their sorry ass personalities and lack of mindfullness. To overcome a mental disorder or a personality disorder one must learn and practice mindfullness and understand exactly how one annoys others and learn to stop that. Some spiritual path may be necessary, regardless of whether or not one has a soul or a god.

At www.successfulschizophrenia.com one can read testimonials from 80-100% cured persons who had schizophrenia, most cures without meds, and in all cases they explain that they had to embrace a new and different world view. some of the testimonials explain the genesis of their previous wrong or bad world views. Many of the testimonials show that in their previous state they lacked mindfulness.

[jj]

The rather bizarre comments by 'Rob' - is HE mentally ill?

[Eleonora27]

Rob, while there might well be good reasons for deciding not to hire an individual who has suffered from mental illness, your little "essay" has me wondering about your own mental health. Ayn Rand? Sorry, dear, but the last Ayn Rand fan I knew has been in and out of a very nice and expensive private psychiatric facility.

Here in the States, by the way, bipolar disorder is not equated with schizophrenia. We regard it as quite manageable. You might be interested in the writings of Dr. Kay Redfield Jamison, a Professor at the medical school of Johns Hopkins University, one of our top institutions of medical education. (She has also been a lecturer at Oxford.) She is, herself, a sufferer from bipolar disorder, and if the good doctors and professors at Johns Hopkins and Oxford didn't have any trouble hiring her, what makes you think you know better?

[Jos]

Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are caused by bad attitudes and world views - excuse me, just off outside to catch the flying pig before it does something nasty on my car.
Rob, I'm so glad you only own a small business and so can't inflict your ideas on too many people in the workplace. I'm also glad to see many other posters from the US expressing different views from yours - I'd hate to think you were a typical example.
I too have known many people with a mental illness, and for the most part their attitudes and personalities have been inspiring. I've also known quite a few people like you - guess which I'd rather work with?

[Mrs France]

I'm going to be very controversial here, but there is another way to look at this.

There are a very great many excellent teaching assistant and ITT candidates out there, and employers and trainers have a responsibility to choose the best of the applicants they see.

It is quite possible that Richard was a good candidate for a place, but not the best, even ignoring the issue of his mental health history.

Going a stage further, if you had two virtually identical applications bar the fact that one had needed treatment for bipolar disorder, it is not unlikely that an employer/college would choose the applicant with no medical history - and whichever choice is made it will be perceived as wrong. The unsuccessful candidate will perceive themself as being a victim of positive/negative discrimination.

Discrimination due to health history is completely wrong, but it is human nature to ascribe a failure to get what we want to circumstances beyond our control. Competition for PGCE places is intense, and it is more than possible that Richard was not one of the best candidates for the course for other reasons, but he feels that it HAS to be discrimination because it's better to be discriminated against than fail because you weren't an ideal candidate.

I've been through the application process and seen some people who I thought were shoo-ins get turned down. The criteria used to select candidates is not as simple as 'here's someone highly qualified who has been in a school' they look at literacy, numeracy and an inherent ability to teach.

[Mrs France]

Please excuse the double posting, but I forgot a very relevant point in my previous comment.

I was a successful applicant for a PGCE. I also honestly recorded on my application that I had a history of depression.

[Piers Gledhill]

First I saw the responses other people posted to "Rob the small businessman". I was intrigued so I scrolled down to find what he had written.
At this point I need to state that I am myself currently struggling to return to teaching. I suffered a nervous breakdown 2 years ago. When applying I was initially open about until it dawned on me that the 100% rejection letters (not even invited to interview)might have something to do with my having been too honest.
At first I giggled at what Rob had to say. It seemed clear to me that Rob was having a laugh and had constructed the letter to cause maximum indignation to those who respond to that kind of rubbish. When I had got to the end of his article, however, I realised he actually meant what he said. Then I realised he holds very similar views to Scientologists. Perhaps he is one. Are you a Scientologist by any chance Rob? You certainly have the fervour of a religious type but without the compassion.

[Piers Gledhill]

PS- Good luck with the fight, Richard. It is comforting that there are strong people out there like you who are willing to challenge ignorance and with that as your world view, you should definitely be teaching!

[Jenny]

Shocking story! My son went through state education in London and almost all his teachers were MENTAL - most of them just on the sadistic scale... I was under the impression that mental illness was a requirement for all English teachers!!

[Cathy]

Jenny: was that meant to be amusing? I thought it was rather cheap and some would find it offensive. If you had problems with specific teachers you should have done something about it and saved us from your spiteful little remarks.

[Anon]

For those who suffer with a manageable mental health issue-never disclose it. Try to get stable and try not to blame your illness for everything. I have three degrees and have worked in some of the most prestigious companies in the world. I have also suffered with depression for 10 years and am still only in my twenties. I only take sick days when I really have to. I know my triggers, I keep my life as stress free as possible and saved up to go private when I can. It means I don't have spare cash, but I am ensuring my continued good health. My work performance is excellent and I have never had absence issues.

To those who are small minded and fearful of those with mental health issues, let me say I hope you never have to suffer them yourselves. Yes mental illnesses make people more difficult to deal with, sometimes more difficult to work with and terribly hard to support, but it's nothing compared to the experience of the sufferer- through no fault of their own.

Agreed, perhaps our culture is too "pills" and quick fix driven, and less concerned with personal responsibility for mental health. But it is that profit-driven mentality that gives us medication which is a torniquet not a cure, and an attitude which perpetuates fear loathing and isolation- all things detrimental to sufferers and non sufferers alike.

[Mark]

Others have said it; I'll repeat it: Do not disclose your mental heatlh condition if you find that you are being discriminated against. Primary schools are the most cautious of all in attemtping to weed out "undesirable" applicants. Go stealth if you really want to work in that atmosphere and be very cautious about revealing personal info to colleagues.

[M. Vincent Savage]

Rob,
Were you anywhere near Belin around 1936? Do your children meet your standards? May God bless you.

[kristalsoldier]

Rob (17 Jul 2009 00:37:40)
says: "People with mental illness ususally have a similar world view that does not work well for employers - they tend to be entitlement oriented and socialist/marxist in perspective, and quite often hedonistic. Few if any would say they like the perspectives of Ayn Rand or Plato, which are both strength and self-control based worldviews."

What? I am having a problem believing that I am reading this. Maybe I am MENTAL!!! Ayn Rand was a crude capitalist and herself a slightly unhinged person - read her personal life - it may be an eye opener for you! Plato, on the other hand, has been and continues to be the inspiration of many so-called socialist/ Marxist philosophers. Or at least they get their philosophical grounding from him! And Rob, I am terribly disappointed that you did not mention the racial biologism of Nazi pseudo-philosophers such as Rosenberg as being essential qualifications for a job in your 'small business'. It would seem that dubious social darwinism would be the order of the day in your books! One also wonders that for someone who seems to valorize Ayn Rand's work, why his business remains 'small' after all, wasn't she all for cartels and big business? And, for the record, Rob, we live, unfortunately, in an 'entitlement-oriented' society. So get off the high horse and turn that keen eye inwards. When credit is slashed, taxes are raised and consumers demand lower prices, you too claim - often unjustifiably - an unfairly high level of compensation for your so-called labours! Your argument inevitably runs along the lines that you are 'entitled' to a fair wage, whose fairness is not market driven but is arbitrarily mandated by the inflated value that you place on your skills. It ain't all that simple mate!

[Carrie]

It seems to me that many of those arguing that people with bipolar should be discriminated against haven't had the courtesy to find out what they are actually talking about.

Bipolar isn't 'EXTREMELY rare' - it affects anywhere between 1% and something like 5% of the population (google 'bipolar prevalence'). It is highly likely that people who go out of their way to avoid those with bipolar simply aren't aware that many acquaintances do have the disorder.

Its symptoms and severity vary - periods of mania (elevated mood) and depression of varying severity and duration. It is managed by medication, self awareness, lifestyle factors (eg regulating sleep, diet, exercise, relaxation). Instantaneous 'breakdown' - as some posters seem to fear in front of a class full of children - isn't my experience of the disorder particularly once managed.

The real problem here does not appear to be bipolar disorder, it is the ignorance and therefore fear/prejudice displayed by people with no experience of the disorder.

[liam]

simple then, if it doesn't pose a danger, don't mention your condition at interviews.

[Dr Smith]

...to those who say to richard don't declare your health problems, well, if he doesn't he won't be covered legally if he needs time off. furthermore, if he needs support in his job he needs to be able to tell his employers of his condition. hiding a "hidden" condition does nothing for this guy's self-esteem and could make matters worse in the future. the fact that people are discriminated in the workplace both for mental ill health and physical ill health still is due to the fact that the agenda of workplaces are not designed to incoporate people not considered mainstream in time use and predictability, and the fact that the DDA was created by a certain "group" of disabled people with certain needs which could be accommodated in the workplace and posed no "threat" to normal working activity. sadly discrimination is very much still the case in what you might think as enlightened workplaces like some universities. indeed, some universities on their application forms ask after the person's ill health. having consulated a lawyer about this, the question is not apparently illegal but the answer could make the question illegal if the condition mentioned falls within the DDA. what kind of system is that? and this question is not seperate to the equal opportunities form so influencing directly those choosing the job. this should be removed now. discrimination in the workplace and economically (insurance, life chances) is still rampant for many disabled people, particularly those with long term conditions which are "hidden". stick to your guns richard, don't hide who you are as you will always regret it and eventually you will come across enlightened and sincere employers. don't bother fighting those who don't accept you, it is a total waste of your energy and go with those that do; and don't listen to some of the stereotyoed, generalised and judgemental rants by people who have never experienced the subtleties of prejudice in their life. and one more thing richard, ignore the media hype about disabled people climbing mountains to prove themselves or sailing around the world or becoming super at maths - all those social pressures which says more about them than you; most disabled people simply want to live their everyday life with dignity, intergrity, respect and fairness and the fight to do this with very little government or social support takes most ordinary disabled people's energy up. Good luck.

[YR]

I had mental breakdown at 16 with anorexia and a smaller one age about 26. since then I have been unable to get even part time classroom work despite having A levels and had 2 boys now in their twenties.
After a lot of hurting I decided it was because I dont make so many friends as other people and am a bit introverted- like to do quiet things at home. I dont go to pubs, clubs or parties. Actually I am reassuringly sober, stable and level headed the way I think school staff should be!

[Simon]

I have huge sympathy for Richard being judged by a mental illness that has not affected him for many years. At the same time it is clearly a product of the society in which we live.

Many parents would simply not be happy if their young child was being taught by someone who has
"experienced bipolar psychosis"

[Cathy]

YR: I'm sorry to read that. You do indeed sound like the sort of person schools need! You've probably realised that the easiest way to get work as a TA (I assume that's what you'd like to do?) is as a parent, at your child's school, and once that chance has gone the normal route, of applications and interviews, is challenging to anyone of any sensitivity. My sister's a teacher and vowed in 1993 (when she left to have her boys) that she'd never put herself through an interview ever again!!

However ... have you thought about voluntary work, to get you known and appreciated in the event of a post coming up? Hearing readers, that sort of thing. Apologies if that's not what you want or if it's unhelpful. But as a natural introvert myself I'm fed up of feeling trodden upon and I think it's time for us nice, quiet people to rebel!

[Helen]

The thing is... once you have been diagnosed and have treatment you are probably a lot safer in terms of the workplace, than you are when unaware of your condition.I have been a teacher for years and have had no problems when having disclosed my illness. I am a much more stable person now than I was pre- diagnosis. Does that make sense?

[YR]

Helens post might be indicating what I was thinking..that it might be easier to get a job (despite mental illness) the higher the status of employment.
My husband has bipolar disorder and a Phd never had a day off in 25 years but takes his drugs without fail. He has not trouble at all getting jobs he wants and his depression does not seem to affect his working life at all. Strangely It does seem to be the lower status jobs which demand more scrutiny of medical history.

[Jeff]

For every piece of data you provide, you are offering others more to discriminate you with.

Whilst in theory it is illegal to do so, like the woman in Richard's account and Rob here, there is no shortage of people out there with prejudiced, closed views on what someone with a certain attribute will entail. Surely applicants should be assessed on skills, abilities and potential alone? If it were so, even your name wouldn't be required to apply.