Should you be able to take your children on holiday during term-time?

As the summer holidays approach (they’ve already started for some lucky children – not so sure about the parents), thoughts go towards summer holidays, and particularly the cost of them.

A new survey by those busy people at Mumsnet shows that over 80 percent of parents felt “angry” about the hikes in holidays during school vacations and that 74% felt that the travel companies were exploiting parents who had no choice about holiday dates. To be honest, I’m surprised it’s not more. Were the 26 percent who didn’t think it was exploitation simply impressed by a piece of good business?

The cost of holidays has become a big issue of late, helped by the effects of the recession and money worries. Last year, research revealed that holidays taken during school breaks cost up to 80 percent morethan at other times, and in this latest survey, 62% of respondents said that the cost of taking a holiday at this time was actually stopping them from going away at all. Of course it’s largely a question of supply and demand. When the children are off school there’s a huge spike in demand for holidays, and prices go up.

Schools strongly discourage taking holidays during term-time, and the government (and local authorities) advises parents not to do so. On the directgov website, it specifically points out that, if you are thinking of holidaying during term-time, you must ask your school. But:

"Schools should not take into consideration:

availability of cheap holidays
availability of desired accommodation
poor weather experienced in school holiday periods
overlap with the beginning or end of term"

Yet despite strong discouragement from schools - and the threat of £50 spot fines for offenders - more than half (56%) the parents surveyed by mumsnet said they would take their children out of school during term time. Of those who had already done so, 43% cited cost as the reason for doing so. Another survey in May said that more parents were taking their children away - and were also happy to pay a fine, as it was less than the money they saved!

But what can be done about this? Although many schools don't want to point it out, they are allowed to grant 10 days of authorised holiday to parents during term-time, if there are good reasons. And even a few days of unauthorised holidays don't actually result in much - a mention on the school report, for example, which doesn't really matter in a primary school. Or does it? What do the teachers think?

Schools Minister Vernon Coaker, a former teacher himself told School Gate:

"We discourage parents from taking their children on holidays during term time, but ultimately it is down to the school to decide on a case by case basis. We understand the temptation to try and buy cheaper holidays, particularly in these tough economic times, and we allow heads some flexibility in the matter. However, in all cases, parents must seek permission from schools in advance and we back heads in taking a firm line on unauthorised absence.”

But if you think that sounds positive, he added:

"Parents taking their children out of school during term time, without permission, put heads in a very difficult position and can disrupt learning significantly. It is difficult for teachers to explain to young people that every single lesson counts when others are being taken out for weeks at a time by their parents. Heads are now clamping down on term time holidays and recording them as unauthorised absence if permission wasn't granted. This explains much of the increase in unauthorised absence being recorded."

So, should we just go ahead, take the children out for a week or two and not worry about it? Or should we stick by the rules and spend hundreds of pounds more for the same trip? And are there any solutions - different regions having holidays at different times for example, or more pressure on travel companies?

Read School Gate:

3 DVDs in a day! Shouldn't schools do more with the end of term?

Does class size matter?

Do our children need better furniture at school?

The best student excuses for missing class

Comments

[Kim]

This is such an interesting one. My daughter often complains that she is the only child in her class who has *never* taken a holiday in term-time. While I don't see anything wrong with it in principle (for the cost reasons you mention, as well as the opportunity to avoid the crowds), I am horribly horribly conformist and hate breaking rules. I just can't bring myself to do it - not because I think she'd lose out on a fortnight's school work (which is negligible anyway) but because it just somehow *feels* wrong.

[Hol]

I don't think kids should be allowed to skip school for vacations - I think it's the travel companies/airlines who need to be taken to task for exploiting the situation. Whatever genuine administrative costs are caused by extra demand at peak times, fine, but the massive hikes should not be allowed

[Jos]

I think there's a big difference between skipping a few days at the end of summer term (when they don't learn anything anyway) and taking a week or weeks out in the middle of the curriculum. Schools and LEAs don't help themselves by having term end on stupid days like a Tuesday - nightmare for working parents in planning holidays and childcare, which is far more expensive by the day than by the week! My area is notorious for this and all they say when queried is that they have to offer a set number of school days each year. Well, so do the Scots and they seem able to have term end on a Friday!
On the whole though I would always try to avoid taking my children out of school even at the end of term unless there was a really compelling reason, not just matters of the cost of holidays.
Someone on another forum about this topic made a very good point about the difficulties of parents in certain types of job or workplaces being able to take time off during school holidays, due to high demand and the need to cover the work. This is something that should be taken into consideration, not sure how though!

[LINDA]

I agree with Kim...I'm the same. I would feel guilty! I would love to take my kids to see the TT races..but its the week after Whitsun and the head refuses every time I ask so we don't go. Other friends just go even though the head has made it unauthorised...and no fines yet. Think I may be brave next year...!!

[Katy]

How, then, would parents feel if half the teachers at the school decided to take the last few days of term off, or a week during ski season, because the holidays are cheaper or there's better availability at those times? There certainly wouldn't be the 'Well they don't learn anything at the end of term anyway' or 'Just a few missed days won't hurt' arguments from the outraged parents then, would there?

[Helena]

Katy, your argument doesn't work because of the numbers ratios. A few children out of class doesn't stop the class happening - but a teacher out of that class does.

I appreciate that having children skipping lessons is disruptive in that they then have to catch up, which is a pain for the teachers etc. But then that happens when the children are off sick, too.

Apparently you are allowed to take your child out of school for ten days every year - but I think it is only with permission, so I suppose the head could refuse for any trivial reason (like a holiday).

[Helena]

Personally, I wish schools (and offices!) worked on a two/three week cycle, to the effect that we got a three-day w/e one week (four working days), and then had to work the following Saturday the next week (six working days).

There's very little you can do Fri pm-Sun pm by way of holiday, but a lot you can do if you get the extra day off!

[Sarah Ebner]

Kim, I know just what you mean. Perhaps we are just sad conformists!

[Sho]

School holidays are a huge pain for me, not least because (my choice) I live in a different country to my family (potential support network)

in the past we have paid huge amounts to childminders - but now ours are at that awkward age where childminders don't really want them, but they are too young to be alone. In the long summer holiday they usually go to my parents in UK for up to 3 weeks then for the remaining 3 weeks my husband and I take 2 weeks each with one week overlapping.

Well... that's the plan. My employer bans vacation of more than two weeks, at the beginning of the month, at the end of the month and only one of us is allowed to be away at any one time. In a team of 3 where all 3 have school age children you can see the problem.

I'm not sure how it would work in the UK but here in Germany each state starts the school holidays at a different time. As far as I have observed the start time is rotated around the states (eg. Last year we started the holidays at the end of June, school started back at the beginning of August, this year we started at the beginning of July and they go back mid-August)

That makes it a little easier on the roads, but the holiday companies have a huge swathe of time to charge at the higher rates.

To be honest, I think the best solution is to band together with other parents and try to solve it together with a series of play-dates and even sleepovers together with staggered holidays for the parents.

It's not condusive to family life - but then working isn't supposed to be fun anyway.
:)

[Katy]

Helena,

I agree that from an overall perspective, considering the needs of the class/school as a whole, the effect of a teacher taking time off during term-time is greater, (and obviously raises much more complicated problems of administration, covering the lesson, continuity of curriculum, etc. than if one or two children are absent). But at an individual level, a parent would have a hard time justifying their condemnation of a teacher missing a few days of school for holiday if they themselves would consider it acceptable for their own child to miss those same days.

[s]

Personally I would tell the school out of politeness if we were going away, but I don't feel any need to ask permission.
By law it is my duty as a parent to ensure that my children receive an education. The school I send my children to is just one of the ways I discharge that duty

[Jack O Greenwood]

Teachers should remember that they are servants of the public and not very clever ones at that. I feel no need to ask a teacher anything; what I expect is that they thank me for paying my taxes to fund their silly little jobs.

[Lucy Brown]

If I had to give any advice to a youngster it would be, dont let school get in the way of your education.
A week with your family in an interesting place is worth a term with a dim witted muppet who couldnt get a good job so became a teacher.

[Cath]

My view is that it is not an issue at junior school, but once they are at senior school it is much harder to justify the time out. The kids seem to work hard and (unlike their parents taking time off from work) will be expected to catch up on their missed lessons. End of term exams count for a lot - streaming and exam choices. Having a two week hole in your notes can't help children revise.
We have taken our kids out of school in term time because my husbands employer operated fixed shut down periods for holidays (can that even be legal?) not all of which were in school holidays. So the kids either missed out on a week of time with their dad or a week of school. Even then, having explained the circumstances, we were still given a really hard time by the school who continued to think week at junior school was far more important than one of only 4 weeks a year as a family.

[Heloise, UK]

I cant believe people even contemplate taking their kids out of school during term time for holidays. To me education is important and is how I can best give my children the opportunity to be independent and self sufficient. One of the values I am teaching them is that holidays are earned. Education is more important that a holiday. Education and holiday can co-exist but is complementary and in addition to that receieved at school. I want my children to respect education and the teachers who provide it. I also want them to question if a teacher is not providing the right value/support etc. To me this is teaching the right principles - not the loss of two weeks.

[Helena]

" The kids seem to work hard and (unlike their parents taking time off from work) will be expected to catch up on their missed lessons"

That's a weird thing to say about employees. You are paid for the work you do while you are at work, not for the work you don't do while you are on holiday. While you are on holiday someone else does your work those weeks, otherwise you have to be paid extra for the work accumulated during your holiday, which you then have to do extra when you get back to work.

[Kevin]

My wife and I had no end of trouble getting permission to take our child out of school for 4 days. The government guidlines state that headteachers are to consider each case on its own merit and are not to issue 'blanket bans'. In practice though, we found that headteachers disregard these guidelines and simply refuse permission for leave; except of course for children being taken out of school for religious reasons. The headteacher in our child's school allowed one parent to take their child to Rome for two weeks in order to visit the Vactican and in another incident a Muslim pupil was allowed a similar amount of leave in order to perform Hajj at Mecca. So, if you want to take your kids on holiday during term time, claim to be religious and you can do whatever you like.

[Kevin]

Oh - and I forgot to add, the headteacher had no problem shutting the school during this years 2 days of snow because some teachers 'couldn't get to work'. Funnily enough the shops and other businesses were all open as usual...

[Kim]

Lucy: do your children's teachers know that you regard them as "dim-witted muppets"? They must be delighted to have such supportive parents.

[Jane]

It is indeed a knotty problem! The school holidays were set years ago, originally the long summer break was to let the kids help with the harvesting.

Times have now changed and most families have 2 working parents with a total of 8 weeks holiday available between them, with overlap for a 2 week family holiday, that means 6 weeks in the year to cover 13 weeks of school holidays and 5 INSET days. No wonder there is a problem.

Many people also live away from their families and do not have free childcare on hand to cover these periods, or their relatives are too busy themselves to look after the kids. Certainly, we only have one set of grandparents available to help us. The other set are still of working age and cannot take the kids during the holidays.

There needs to be a rethink on many levels here, school holidays, employers holiday allowances and travel companies all need to be under review and perhaps then we won't have to take the kids out of school for term time holidays to save money.

[DAS]

Children should certainly not be allowed to be out of school during term time. Those of us who do not have children and do not want them can have our holidays when the screaming, pushing and general mayhem caused by the brats has subsided.

[Sarah]

Bugger the school rules: I've got a bright kid who is doing well above average at the moment (just finished Year 3).
I'm well aware though, that for him to keep fulfiling his potential we're going to have to do more at home as the school concentrated its resources on the kids who need more help. His class has 39 kids in next year: I expect he'll be "taught" more by teaching assistants than by the teacher.

I've also got a 12 year old stepson who's under-performing at school. His father gets naff all in the way of communication from his school - even when we write a letter to go wtih his homework asking them to involve us in his education (stepson doesn't live with us, but is spending increasing amounts of time here.... still, we're not his main residence so the school just ignores his father).

Given this pretty poor effort on the school's behalf and the extra effort put in on mine, I take a dim veiw of them objecting if I pull him out of school a week early to go on holiday, when we can save literally hundreds of pounds.

We spent 2 years in utter penury, due to my partner being out of work. He's got work now but money is still tight.
We haven't had a holiday in 7 years: we're having one next year come hell or high water and it'll be before the "high season" prices kick in!

They can object all they like: in the end there's nothing they'll DO as we work with them on everything else (as much as they'll let us, anyway).

Pah.

[opinononeverything]

My folks took me out of school for 3 weeks to go to the States when I was 11 and the school was fine with it - as long as I wrote a daily diary while was there and completed a presentation for my class on the differences between America and England.
I suspect though, that if my parents had habitually taken us out of school for holidays during term time the school would have been less accomodating.

[Kim]

I agree that holidays can be educational. We always found with our daughter, especially when she was little, that she would always be changed at the end of a holiday - her vocabulary would have improved, or she'd have acquired a new skill or a bit more maturity.

But the fact that holidays can be educational is no particular reason to take them in term-time, is it? They can be just as educational when taken in the school holidays (though of course if you can't afford to go away during school holidays, that doesn't hold.) When I look at my daughter's schoolfriends, though, when they go away in term-time it's often to Disneyland or similar, which probably ranks fairly low in terms of learning opportunities!

[Cathy]

Having read some of the comments here (thanks a bunch, Lucy - I love you, too) I can't resist saying that we teachers LOVE coming into work and finding lots of children missing. It makes the job even easier than usual. No skin off my nose if they miss something of benefit to themselves - I get paid anyway! I do notice that the children who miss school to go on holiday because they've got awkward parents are not the nicest children, by any means. So don't worry about spiting the teachers - you won't be!

[sho]

I sometimes send my children to school during the holidays - they sometimes go to a school local to my parents and help out in German lessons, it's good for everyone and has worked out really well (it's only the odd day or two)

As for the comment about not having to catch up on work when you've been on your (contractually agreed, paid) vacation: not where I work. Prior to any vacation we will all be working extra hours to prepare for any possible unforseen eventuality, and when we get back we'll be working long long hours to handle all the things that we - indespensible, apparently - weren't around to handle.

And yet we still take vacation.

But, reading the comments, is it really necessary for there to be an "us and them" between parents and teachers? That's not a good example for the children is it?

[Sal]

As a secondary teacher I know there are times pupils should not miss school. Having a year 11 demand I spend a lesson ignoring other pupils to tell her about the 2 weeks of coursework she missed is more than frustrating. However, lower down the school a few days away does them no harm. I know there are a lot of teacher haters out there so they won't care that I cannot afford a holiday in peak time either. After all, I only work 60 hours a week during term time so I don't deserve a break.

[Sarah]

I'm not a teacher hater: a good teacher is worth their weight in gold.
However, I am deeply disappointed with the communication from the school and with the level of teaching, both for the under and over achiever in our family.
It does rankle a little and the school dictating to parents who actually do a lot to help them (the teachers) in their job simply won't wash.

[Brian Hare]

Teachers are petty losers who love power. I left school in at 16 which was two years longer than I would have liked. Now I earn more than any idiot teacher and have have zero respect for the morons who whine about year 3. year 10 or whatever they call it these days.
And before some whining teacher gets all high and mighty about money not being everything, I also do unpaid work and charity support etc. Only I dont need to tell the world how tough life is.
Education is not just about being forced to listen to some public sector idiot who could not get a good job so became a teacher.
Those who can, do.

[Penny Harvey]

Why would anyone feel they have to listen to the opinion of teachers?
These people dont work in the real world - their views are of no value.

[Jock Wheeler]

If being in school is oh so important, why do teachers strike?

[Greenockian]

When my boys were younger we took them out off school early several times. It was not an issue for them as they had no problems about being away from friends for a few weeks. the holidays were great; one of the boys kept diaries recounting events (and that means everything including drawings of a pissed dad "doing karaoke"). I look back and can only wonder at how easy it was. Oh, by the way, they're both at university now - so all this guff about limiting their life chances...no point saying it.

[m onty sutton]

Of course it is ok to take children out of school during term time in the junior school and it is disingenuous of teachers to say otherwise. In the grand scheme of things it will make no difference to their gcse results as long as they can read and write by the time they reach senior school. Obviously a holiday with the family at an affordable price is far more important in a child's life than doing every single school day. The only way to beat the travel companies is for schools to insist that children have a right to a fortnight off in term time for their annual big holiday so holiday companies cannot take such outrageous advantage of our hardworking and exhausted families.

[monica]

Maybe I'm naive but I am horrified by the attitudes of some of the people on this thread. I am assuming that they are all parents, because otherwise why would you comment on a blog entitled 'school gate'?? That would really imply that you have very little going on in your life. So assuming all those who are being so abusive towards teachers have children what on earth is your children's behaviour like??

I get sick to the back teeth of hearing people blame working, single mums for the state of our youngsters and all the social problems in the world. Clearly the problem is parents like you who wouldn't understand the meaning of respect if you were paid. Teachers do a vital and difficult job. I'd love to see all of you who are so proud of your 'amazing' jobs control a class of rowdy brats who have been raised by parents like you to have no respect ar all for authority. Seriously perhaps you could all just atart home-schooling then my children wouldn't have their lessons disrupted by kids like yours.

And no, I'm not a teacher, I do work in the ed-system though, and clearly know far more than a lot of you about what really goes on.

Well said Cathy, I honestly don't know how you do your job.

[Liz Smith]

It's not an issue here in Australia. You just write a letter to the school, it get's rubber stamped unless your child is already behind in studies. I've even taken my kids out for weeks at a time to visit the UK & family....not a problem. Mind you, education is streets ahead over here.

[Adam Brady]

Posted by: monica | 18 Jul 2009 09:11:47

Monica - I dont work as a teacher - but I do pay their wages via my taxes so have an opinion as their employer.
You miss the point people make - there is no reason not to take the kids out of school because what they are learning is of little value and the people who are forcing them to be there - the state lackeys - the teachers are not people you would want yor kids influenced by. Quite simply I dont want my kids influenced by a fool that whines about their job but relies on the brute force of the state to ensure they have customers, or in this case students.
You are right, I like many people do not respect teachers. I expect my kids to be polite to them but thats all. Respect has to be earnt and most teachers just have not earnt it.

[monica]

Adam I think you are over glorifying your role somewhat you may wish for the power but sadly you are NOT a teachers employer. Personally I doubt your credentials as a parent if you will leave your children in the care of people you regard as 'fools' I know I wouuldn't. The state doesn't have the 'brute force' you clearly imagine it does, it cannot force you to send your child(ren) to school. If you hate it so much step up to the plate and be the good parent you clearly imagine yourself to be and take on their education yourself, plenty of people do. Personally I suspect it would change your views somewhat and you'd be desperate to hand them back to the teachers.

[Holly]

Maybe Times readers give their children interesting, inspiring, educational and stimulating holidays, which more than make up for 2 weeks of missed (junior) school, but I can assure you that this is not the case for the majority of parents. Most that I've encountered in my school are dragging their kids to a poolside in Spain, where the kids (yet again) have the amazing opportunity to watch their sunbaked parents slide into an alcoholic stupor as the day progresses, they stay up 'til past midnight every night in the hotel bar at a 'disco' and then it's back to the poolside the following afternoon. This is the extent of their holiday 'experience'. They might, for excitement, get to witness their parents arguing with some foreign tourists, or perhaps swearing at the hotel staff.
Many of you forget that for many many children, school really *is* the best thing in their lives, it really does make a difference, and every day counts.

[Daniel]

I am a primary school teacher with 15 years teaching experience. I also have 3 children under the age of 8, so can see the argument from both sides.
In my experience, children do not suffer adversely from being taken out of school for a week or two a year. If that is their one chance to go on holiday with their family for an experience they will remember all their lives, then they should take that opportunity!
If travel agents were a little less greedy, or the Government were able or willing to regulate the industry so that parents did not have to make the choice to take their children out of school, we would not be having this debate.

[Hayley]

I can't believe some of the comments on here. Are people so stupid they gladly place their own children in the care of the 'dim witted idiots' they describe as teachers? If so, shame on you! This is totally pathetic, no doubt the children with parents yanking them out of school in term time display the same shocking lack of respect for education that their foolish parents do. Pathetic.

[Robert Henshaw]

Todays parents were yesterdays schoolchildren.
Maybe things have changed and teachers are no longer scruffy left wing bullys. Maybe they dont study for years then complain about the salary or take industrial action at the drop of a hat. Maybe they no longer enforce petty uniform rules and force kids to listen to opinion confused as fact.
Maybe, but would you take the risk. Some of us have long memories.
Respect for education is not the same as respect for teachers.
Education is valuable; being forced to sit in a room listening to somebody not smart enough to get a good job is a poor use of time.

[Aimee]

I really cannot believe some of the comments towards teachers on here! I'd just like to point out that I have a 2.1 degree from Oxford, and chose to be a teacher and make a difference rather than lining my pockets like some of the selfish, materialistic and disrespectful people commenting here (and I woudn't say 42K was bad!). In addition, I don't moan about my job...I chose to do it and if I didn't like it i'd do something else.
Actually, my parents always took me out of school for holidays BUT they always made me catch up the work, as well as write a diary of the holiday and learn about the languages and culture of the destinations. I'd be amazed if any of the whinging parents on here actually did that! If only they did, then there would be no problem! Finally, spare a thought for us teachers who have no option but to book our own holidays entirely in the school holidays and actually pay double!

[Helena]

Aimee - anyone who whinges and moans and crits teachers can just be dumped in front of the Lower Set Year 9s'for a couple of periods.

They'll learn...oh my, they'll learn....

[monica]

@ Helena LOL!!! Do you think we could do that?? I for one would love to see it, they wouldn't last 5 minutes!!!

[Aimee]

Robert, Brian, Penny, Adam, Lucy...I would like to have seen you teach my bottom set Year 10 yesterday! It's learning right up to the end for us, in case anyone thinks the last week is pointless?
When it come to the GCSE, though, all those kids who were on holiday (and all the others whose ignorant parents kept them off in case they caught swine flu) won't be able to answer those questions since they will have zero intention of catching up.
Even better, I can guarantee that after the mock, at least one of those kids will try to blame me for not teaching them that topic!

[Julie]

We had a letter home from school this week, stating that all requests for leave in term time had to be signed off by the relevant person at the Local Council's Education Department! Talk about take away the automony of the Head Teacher - both the Head and the parents were very annoyed!

[Cathy]

Monica: Thanks! Posters like that really aren't worth the trouble of replying to. Just be glad you don't have to meet people like that socially! In reality, most of them are either ignorant and envious or else they are still bearing grudges from their schooldays. Either way, they're a waste of your time and mine.

[Robert Henshaw]

Helena, Monica Cathy, thank you for telling us that our comments are not worth replying too, that just about sums up the arrogance of teachers. They were like that in my day.

And as for doing year 10 or whatever nonsense you call it. How about going out and cold calling on commision knowing failure means no income, how about a cold wet building site or what about just being a hard working ordinary shop assistant abused and threatened by morons. No I wouldnt do year ten but then I wouldnt tell another adult what they should and should not do with their family. Peoples private lives are just that private - teachers should just accept that not everyone thinks listening to drivel about GCSEs equals educations.
However many thanks for clarification of the fact that teachers have not changed since the 1970s. Rude petty bullys. However I did have the joy of meeting an old PE teacher five years after I left school. Strange he wasnt as big and brave against a 21 year old kick boxer as he was teaching his inane sports on a cold wet field.
Funny that!

[Nicki]

I think it is fine and (deep breath) a parents right to decide for their child.

Two weeks out of the whole school year is unlikely to do any long term damage, unless they are sitting for or revising for exams - real exams, not government tests!

There is more to education and life than sitting in a classroom learning by numbers to pass an exam.

Family life sturuggles as it is with constant outside interferance.

[Nicki]

Also .... my daughters school, as with others, is allowed to agree up to 10 days per year.

We asked for this this year as neither myself or my husband can get time off over the summer hols, so our only chance of going away or even spending any quality time together was to take her out of school. Our request was denied - we took her anyway! Next year she will be in year 10, and we will try and not take her out of school, but there was really no reason to deny her this year. We were told (nudge, nudge, wink wink) that although it would count as unauthorised absence, as this years report had been 'done', and next years wouldn't start until Sept, it wouldn't be recorded. They had to say no to stop them selves being castigated by the LEA.

[monica]

@ Robert Henshaw if you actually bothered to read my comments properly you would see that I stated that I am NOT a teacher.

As for rudeness, arrogance etc I suggest you re-read some of the seriously offensive comments that have been left here regarding teachers. No I don't want to do your job, but I haven't criticised it either or claimed that I could do it better than you. And seriously if you are so scarred from your school days 30 years I suggest you get some help, cos really you should have moved on by now.

[Robert Henshaw]

Monica, what is more offensive, comments about teachers that I believe to be true or state interference in the private lives of people and their children?
I respectfully suggest you look up the workings of an evil organisation called Common Purpose and you will see how dangerous it is to give power to brain washed petty bullys. Teachers are one arm of a very dangerous disruption of individual freedoms. I expect many teachers really do believe that a child not being in school is important for education. I suggest it has more to do with state control of private lives. I also suspect that this idea would be lost on the average teacher whose interlect will be limited. If you dispute this I ask you to explain why anyone would want to suffer year ten or whatever you call it, unless they are either brainwashed into thinking they are serving a higher cause, stupid or desperate.
Look up Common Purpose and educate yourself into what is really going on.

[monica]

Hi Robert presume either you don't have kids or you home school. At least I sincerely hope you don't have children you send to school cos if you believe all that but still do so then I'd say you're guilty of child abuse. I certainly will look up all of that so long as you promise to look up information on personality disorders with paranoia, cos I think you need some help.

[Helena]

Hmm, I think it's time the trolls here (AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!)(and so do the rest of us!) were given some double detentions.

[Monica]

Sorry Helena it actually is me and not a Troll. I was slightly riled and lost my temper. Working in education and seeing how damn hard our teachers work I was outraged by some people here who are so offensive about the system and yet still continue to use it. Friends of mine feel that way but they have the courage of their views and home school and I respect them for it. But you're probably right and I do need a time out for a bit.

[Robert Henshaw]

dear Monica and Helena; why should people not be free to raise srious concerns about a system they pay for? As for home schooling; you raise a fair point that I acknowledge. However two things; first many parents, myself included have to work so that is not an option; second point there are of course many benefits to good education and professional teachers where they exist. However mine and I think other peoples points were that this does not give the teachers the authority to take complete control of peoples private lives. The final decsion makers as to if to go on holiday should be the family not the school. Common sense would dictate listening to any inteligent input, but the final decision is mine not the state.
So har as paranoid concerns; I really suggest you do look up Common Purpose and the various powers and methods used by the state to control people.

[Monica]

Robert, firstly I'd like to apologise for suggesting you seek psychiatric help, that was rude and infantile of me, I am truly sorry.

Re your points in your last comment to a certain extent I totally agree, and although personally I don't remove mine for holidays - ever as a matter of principle, I would agree that a coupla weeks a year won't really affect anyone. I was angered by the fact that the debate had turned into a 'teachers are stupid imbeciles' blog. Of course there will be bad apples in every barrel but the majority of them are incredibly hard working people who generally care about our children. (If anyone is having a different experience I'd look at changing schools you've obviously been very unlucky)

As a point of fact though it's not the teachers who grant you permission it's the head, whose hands have usually been tied by the governors, who are of course responding to the pressures placed upon them by the ridiculous Offsted rulings.

I also believe the laws regarding how much time children are in school are there to protect children. Obviously it's extreme but unfortunately there are parents out there who have no regard for their children's education. (no I don't mean parents who take the kids away in term time for a coupla weeks) These children have the right to some form of education, hence the truancy laws are there so questions can be asked if they chalk up too many absences a year. I would agree that the knock on affect of this causing well meaning parents to be prevented from booking a cheaper holiday is unfair. However I think children with chaotic home lives are entitled to protection.

Incidentally I only educate through the state system and would be interested to know what happens with this at private schools. Or does the fact that their holidays are longer and that parents are paying through the nose for their children's education mean that it is not an issue?

[Ted]

Holidays are not some sort of right, you know!!

It is bad enough that children have such a short school day and that they do not have lessons at least on Saturdays as well.

All my boarding schools had days that ran from 0730 until 1930 Mon-Fri and until noon on Saturdays. No knocking off for telly and shoplifting at 3 in the afternoon for us!

I only left school in 1986, so it wasn't that long ago either.

My parents would never have dreamed of messing with my education just so that they could sit on a beach somewhere - they often went in term time anyway - they just left us at school and sent postcards as I recall!

[Cathy]

Monica: Just to say I do know how you feel! So much so, that I wondered if I'd inadvertently changed my own moniker to Monica (sorry!). I'm forever losing my temper and having to apologise on this and other forums (fora??). But most people here know who the good guys are.

You make a good point about the head calling the shots and not the teachers. I'd add that IMHO it's entirely in the PUPILS' interests for them not to miss school, certainly not the teachers'. As I (rather intemperately) said earlier, my heart is filled with joy when I see half a class missing. Of course I'm not a 'proper' teacher and so don't have the headache of trying to make up for missed time.

I'd like to explain to Robert that not all teachers are stupid leftie bullies who obviously made his life miserable in PE lessons. In fact I'm a small, female, middle-aged Infant teacher who has been the victim of bullying not the perpetrator ... and that's why I'm a supply teacher. I wouldn't dream of trying to teach Year 10! I can't even bully my own three teenagers - they bully me, if anything (joke).

Oh, and as far as being thick and badly paid go ... well, I'm not thick, unless you count a second from Oxford as failure. I have a PhD too, which I did for fun. Totally irrelevent to my paid work, but I like to think it makes me a more rounded human being. Badly-paid, well, yes. I don't much care for myself but the profession would benefit from better-paid and better-qualified people, IMO. My partner isn't especially well-paid (civil servant) but we manage perfectly well. But then we were both brought up to believe that public service was a Good Thing and that money wasn't everything as long as one has enough. A dying breed, I suspect! As long as I enjoy my work, feel I'm contributing to society and have enough spare cash to feed my reading habit, I'm as happy as a sand-boy!

[Thalia]

My parents persisted in taking me out of school before the official school holidays every year to save money.

The result was I missed every end of year exam that dictated your opportunies the following year and ended up in the bottom of the C stream the whole time. I then couldn't catch up or take the subjects I wanted to or was good at or get into a good college.

Your child's education is more important than a few pounds off your holiday.

[Robert Henshaw]

Monica and others
As they may remove this thread soon, I would like to emphasise that I think good teachers should be given authority and support and more money. The concept that anyone should have to be abused by teenagers every day just for going to work is unacceptable. The pendulum has swung too far the wrong way. My own view is that at 14 you should be allowed to leave school and get a job. Understanding the real world might make some people value a good education. It may also ensure that the teachers only have to teach the kids who want to be there.
Sorry for provoking you Monica, however no need to apologise for your retort- free speach is as valuable as education. I will conclude by saying that I personally would not take the kids out of school to save a few quid. I just wish to retain my right to do so.

Wishing wellness and happiness in your life wherever you are

[Vivienne Steadman]

I am appalled at the references that have been made regarding teachers on this thread.

Teachers are not people who have taken their job because that was the best they could do as a result of being thick or "dim-witted" as one poster referred to them.

Teachers are also very rarely power-crazed, which was I think another reference that was made. Children, and especially teenagers, by their very nature, rebel against authority. It is a teacher's unenviable task to control that rebellion whilst at the same time providing the student/child with enough flexibility to learn acceptable boundaries; almost what I would say a parent's role is, wouldn't you say?

However, I can tell everyone posting and reading here that I have met far more bad parents than I have bad teachers, and that can come in a variety of guises.

Although teachers are paid a relatively good salary, they have studied in order to be able to earn it, and under no circumstances does that salary compensate for the abuse that some parents feel is acceptable to throw at them, and in many ways teachers are expected to just accept that abuse, whilst doing a fairly thankless job. But what would it be like if children were not compelled to go to school? Think about that the next time you are about to bad mouth your child's teacher or school as a whole. Also consider the appalling example you set your children when they see or hear about the way you treat other people - because that's all teachers are at the end of the day, not superhumans!!!

[monica]

Thanks Cathy I appreciate your comments no end. I agree the idea of 'Public service' does seemed to have waned in popularity over the years, perhaps because it's so damned hard on the 'servants' due to all the beaurocracy (sp!) now!!

Thalia it's so interesting to hear the viewpoint from the other end of the scale and I think your's is a compelling argument against term-time holidays.

Robert, thanks and for the debate, it's stopped my brain from being too blancmongy this weekend lol!! The whole ed debate is such a sticky one. My Dad was forced to leave school at 14, post war poor family etc and this made him all the more determined that we would stay on to 18. He really felt he'd been deprived of a good education. That said I'm now quite passionate about apprenticeships and the old yts I wish they'd ressurect them and offer youngsters a viable alternative to academia.

[Kim]

@Aimee: "Robert, Brian, Penny, Adam, Lucy...I would like to have seen you teach my bottom set Year 10 yesterday!"

Or rather, they should be *in* the bottom set, as most of the people here expressing hostility towards teachers can neither spell nor punctuate. Perhaps they should have turned up to class more often.

[Bernadette]

This one is easy. Refuse to go on holiday at peak times when they jack up the prices. They'll fall soon enough.

[Robert Henshaw]

Kim, your comments about spelling and punctuation demonstrate a level of ignorance of the English language. Read Shakespear and you will see different spelling; read Dickens and you will see paragraphs, the length of which are rare in modern literature. Language evolves as does the way in which it is expressed. In the electronic age, in formats such as this, less attention is paid to Oxford English Dictionary spelling, while punctuation rules are still being developed.

Was their a point you wished to make about teaching good or bad, the rights of parents and the state or were just trying to be clever?
If it were the later I regret you need to get back to your student union bar from whence you came and learn again.

[Robert Henshaw]

Monica - I 100% agree with you about the apprentice schemes. If a foul mouthed young 14 year old behaved in the way they do in schools he woudl soon find that grown up men are not as cuddly as some of his teachers are probably forced to me.

[Chris Cherry]

@Robert Henshaw

Are you seriously suggesting that the poor standard of punctuation and grammar in these posts is down to English being a changing language?

I know the language isn't prescriptive, but there are SOME rules you need to follow. Please don't compare not being able to spell or punctuate with Shakespeare's early modern English.

[Robert henshaw]

@ I know the language isn't prescriptive, but there are SOME rules you need to follow. Please don't compare not being able to spell or punctuate with Shakespeare's early modern English.

Posted by: Chris Cherry | 20 Jul 2009 00:55:59

Two questions Chris; When did you gain the right to say what rules need to be followed when posting on the internet?
Is the use of all capitals when writing "SOME" correct or is this a rule you invented?

[Old mum.]

Where I work,we very often meet Asian families who take their children on holidays of several months' duration to their country of origin.This is common practice.Schools are then expected to give them extra attention on return to "catch up".It's true[ask the teachers] and no one publicises this.

[Meir]

Assuming that all parents want their children best interest, it should be left to the parents to decide if to take them out or not. Saying that if too many kids miss school the overall level of education might worsen and that might affect the UK in 20-30 years. We should have a cap for the number of days kids can miss school, unless they are ill. It should not be the school responsibility to provide additional lessons to kids that missed school, the parents should deal with it. If parents are stupid enough to take them out for a long period, the kids will suffer for the rest of their life, parents need to be aware of the importance of succeeding in school.

[Steve Byrne]

So the taxpayer coughs up and provides the schools and the "it doesn't apply to me" parent then decides when their child attends??

If parents want this flexibility pay for it

[Kim]

Robert - how would you feel if, when you read The Times, the contributors all made up their own spellings rather than use the ones agreed in standard English?

When your children go to school, do you think teachers shouldn't bother to teach them spelling? If your child scores badly on a spelling test, do you shrug your shoulders say "It doesn't matter?"

Just curious.

[Chris Bowman]

I was taken out of school for between 2 and 3 weeks every year from ages 7 to 15. It didn't harm me at all, either educationally or professionally. What it did do was instill a love of foreign culture, languages, history, cuisine etc.

I now take my children out of school regularly, and again no harm is being done.

There is way to much paranoia in the UK about school based education and tests. Chill out folks! A couple of weeks will not harm anyone, and the life experience and knowledge of other cultures gained can be invaluable!

[liam b]

if 90% of private sector workers can take holidays any time they wish, so can school kids. This will create sustainable income for tourism and trade and help avoid the total rip off costs when flying during term time.

[Nicholas]

If the school my daughter (in year 4) attends stopped having multiple inset days (and half days) throughout every term, those days would at least add up to the amount of time likely to be used for a holiday by the family. Not only that, the inset days are extremely inconvenient for many parents who have to provide alternative care.

Why don't the inset days and the disruption to timetables they cause harm childrens' schooling?

Do away with the inset days (and do teacher training during the other nine weeks not used for real teaching) and stop getting agitated when parents try to balance the best way of providing a full and rounded life for their children.

[Hol]

It's rather misleading comparing school kids/teachers to the private sector when it comes to holidays. Schools get far more holiday than your average worker's holiday entitlement (although, granted, teachers will use some of this holiday to work), and these dates are not subject to their employer's approval. Workers are not allowed to just go off on holiday whenever they want - they're entitled to X number of days a year off, but precisely which days have to be agreed in advance and some employees inevitably miss out on their preferred days if it doesn't suit the employer. I only wish I had the flexibility and amount of holiday time as school goers do - of course their parents may not have the same flexibility, but given how much time kids get off I found it doubtful that holidays can't be fitted in within the designated times rather than missing lessons.

It's the holiday industry who needs taking to task, not pupils who need yanking out of school.

[Paul]

When did we as parents loose the right to our children’s time? We cram them in earlier and earlier into schools so we can go earn money to pay tax, and we have to have permission to take them for a holiday.

Travelling and experience (and I don't for one minute think all parents see it the same way) are just as valuable as education.

Growing up in a society where freedom to choose is valued more than the mass programming of the modern education system is what I needed, not a cost comparative of cheap holidays to Ibiza out of term time.... These are CHILDREN were talking about. Let them enjoy every holiday when ever that is before we set them to work as slaves like the rest of us.

[Another mum]

Nicholas - my understandign is that schools are obliged by law to have these inset days. But there is nothing to stop a school putting them at convenient dates - my son's school always has them on the first or last day of a term or half term, whihc has the added advantage of being able to book a cheap flight for holidaying in the inset day when the other schools are open ... win-win!

[Damion]

My son requires an accurate assesment from an Educational pshycologist to diagnose a suspected learning dissability. When we asked for the assesment in January we were told no-one was available until September the following school year. Strict timescales don't appear to be a two-way street with the education authority

[Neil Davenport]

I would have thought it was quite simple really.All rules require consent or they become unenforceable.
If 56% of parents belive that it is OK to take their children out of school for a holliday then that is what will happen and there is nothing the school can do.You cannot discipline a majority unless that majority is agreeable or prepared to put up with it.

[Dave]

My youngest (8) was disappointed with 19/20 on his spelling test. In fact, he had spelt all the words correctly.
In addition, the teacher had written 'Exellent!' on the bottom.
Please don't misunderstand me: she is an excellent teacher (I didn't feel the need to mention either of these mistakes) but in her place I'd be tempted to check in the dictionary before scrawling the big red cross.
Missing the last two or three days of term allows me to take my kids on a holiday I couldn't otherwise afford. It also gives plenty of time to confirm the correct spelling of 'excellent' on the 'plane.

[Kim]

Oh dear, Dave, that's shocking. I think I might have been tempted to have a word in those circumstances.

[Dave]

@Kim

I'm a bit old-fashioned. I'm on the teachers side (other things being equal) and don't want to make a fuss. Carl has made great progress this year so I can't complain.
I get the 'it's a pleasure to teach...' for all three of my boys although sometimes I think that's not great (perhaps they don't have enough 'fire in their belly'). Academically they are all working well above their chronological age and they do well at sports (playing for various football and cricket teams).

[Sally]

My parents took me out of school for holidays. No more than one per year mind. It never did me any harm!

Also, parents going away only in school holidays puts pressure on business as they all want to be away at the same time and there isn't always someone there to cover the work.

I would happily take my child (if I had one) out of school for a week or two for a holiday. They would miss very little of any benefit (if I recall my school days correctly) and sometimes experiencing different cultures is more beneficial. Obviously, this doesn't count if you are going to Benidorm though!

[Dave]

@Sally
I'm not sure I agree with your point about Benidorm. I needed to take my eldest to York A&E (at about 1:00am) a few months ago.
It was extremely educational (for us both): you wouldn't believe the state some people get into on a Saturday night!
There are elements of education in any experience approached in the right way (even going to Benidorm there is currency exchange, navigating the airport system and so on).

[Nicky]

“Whatever genuine administrative costs are caused by extra demand at peak times, fine, but the massive hikes should not be allowed” HOL 16 Jul 2009 12:54:58

It’s got nothing to do with administrative costs, but everything to do with supply and demand. There are only so many seats on a flight. If there are 200 people looking to buy a seat on a plane that only seats £100, those seats become more valuable. The reason why airlines “get away with it” is because people will pay over the money.

A holiday is a luxury, not a right. Why should companies make less profit just because it’s “not fair”? If you can’t afford the holiday, then tough.

[Kim]

Dave - oh, I'm on the side of teachers too. Well, most of the time. I would try hard not to undermine a teacher's authority. Even so, I'd have to raise my eyebrows at a teacher marking a correct spelling as incorrect and then demonstrating that she can't spell herself.

Coming back to the main question about taking holidays in term-time, the real issue for me is not about whether it's detrimental to the child's education (it probably isn't, most of the time), but whether you want to give your children the message that it's OK to disobey school rules. That's the area I have a problem with. It doesn't help that schools don't seem to be terribly consistent in their application of the rule.

[Dave]

When I take my kids out of school (only usually 2-3 days at the end of term) I ensure they won't be missing any end of term tests.
I feel terribly guilty about taking them out (even though I seek permission from the headmaster/mistress beforehand).
For me, on balance, it's the best compromise available. I am, however, acutely aware that it IS a compromise. Part of me agrees with those who refuse to take their children on holiday in term time on principle.

[Cathy]

Dave: I wouldn't worry! 'A pleasure to teach' is the highest possible praise I could ever give a child. And I wouldn't say it to the parent of a docile but dim one, either. The pleasure is in engaging with a lively-minded, inquisitive and well-brought-up pupil. And re: the teacher's spelling mistake - your response shows that you're a very nice person too! I'm always making mistakes and I don't mind admitting to them (my degree's in English so I haven't anything to prove) but it's interesting to see how many parents love pointing them out! All too many primary teachers can't spell, I'm sad to say. They can still be marvellous teachers but not of spelling - unless they do their own homework.

[Cathy]

Old Mum: You're right. It happens a lot and it's very worrying.

[Dave]

Thanks for that Cathy. I know they're not dim but I have wondered on occasion if 'pleasure to teach...' meant docile!
When I was at university there was a teacher training college nearby. Cross-pollination (of ideas, of course) was inevitable. I was always amazed at the sheer volume of work the student teachers needed to complete (although my chemistry degree wasn't exactly effortless).

[Tan]

The excuse used by schools that it will adversely affect children's education to have time off during term time is such tosh,
my parents took us out of school for a whole year when we were at primary school to go traveling,
and then went on to have very successful educational results, where all four of us are educated to degree level and above where one of my sisters has a PhD in Chemistry.

therefore I don't see that a couple of weeks per year is going to be too much of a problem,

[Prince Harley]

Well, here's a novel thought;
if you don't like it, don't do it. If you like it, do it.

Quit whining about something that doesn't matter, you pack of babbling, blethering fannies.

[Dave]

@Prince Harley

Autism in action!

Here's a novel thought: if you don't like it don't ready it!

[Cathy]

Dave: You're welcome! Yes, I know ... I'm so glad I did my PGCE ... ahem... in 1983. It was a walk in the park. I supervised students on teaching practice for a few years and they worked incredibly hard and, in the case of the PGCE students, very intensively indeed - to the extent that I concluded that a year just isn't enough to turn a graduate into an Infant teacher. Not so much Junior/secondary but (as you know) small children aren't like the restof us!! The best student I ever had (by miles) was an accountant and father of two who waited till his wife went back to work before training to be a teacher. With all due respect to all the other great teachers I've known, he was just magic. A loss to one profession was a great gain to mine (his household budget must have suffered a bit, too!). But there's an awful lot of crap to read up on in one year. I mean (hurriedly) ... theory and government initiatives :)

[Cathy]

Kim: I bet your daughter's teacher/head don't lose a lot of sleep over parents like you! No one's going to worry overmuch when the parents have thought it through and made provision. And I don't actually think it sends the wrong messages if it's just the odd time. Not compared with the messages some of the children of some people here must be getting! ;) That was an elegant sentence - can't wait to hear the verdict of our resident linguistics expert.

I'll tell you a secret (whispers): teachers would LOVE to go on holiday outside term time when it's cheaper and they hate the fact that they can't! Well, I do. I've only ever had 6 years out of 48 when I had that option: four when I was at university, and two when I gave up teaching to look after Eldest and Son. Bitter? Just a bit!

[Robert Henshaw]

@ Kim

Your point is interesting. The structure and spelling depends on context. For a business proposal, engineering report, medical prescription, school spelling test then of course accuracy is essential. If my child needs support in basics of spelling, punctuation and maths then that is a task for a dedicated skilled teacher. I certainly do not have the ability to start these from scratch.
However where the subject is more important, for example when understanding other peoples views, for example yours; then I don't care for accurate spelling and structure. Quite simply providing I understand the point of the other person then the objective has been met.
So to the point about holidays; it would be a fool that would remove their child at a key time, I certainly would not do it, but my view is that an intelligent person has the right to make an informed decision. It is not for the state to interfere. I do understand that some teachers are frustrated that the idiot parent will not be able to judge when it is and is not important in a childs education. That is unfortunate for all concerned, not least the child, but does that mean we have to have a socilaist one size fits all policy of bringing everything down to cater for the muppetts.
In this format I type fast to express my view. I read slowly as I find other views interesting. Truth is I dont care if am not 100% accurate and I do not look down on others. I do however care about people who feel that they have a right to dictate what I should say and do. On the other screen of my work computer is a detailed engineering report; it will be accurate, but then it has to be. Smug comments from educationalists that decry a point of view because of structure and spelling is in my opinion imature.

[Des]

I am glad the photo does not show a mixed race (back father) photo. Des

[Cathy]

Robert: You say you don't look down on others, and I acknowledge that your posts to Kim and Monica of late have been thoughtful and pleasantly-expressed: so might I ask why you were so vitriolic about teachers? As an excellent teacher - and one who has to compete in the marketplace with much younger and therefore cheaper ones - I cannot help taking such insults personally. Do you understand?