Applying to university - why getting into Edinburgh may be harder than you think (especially if you live down south)

Students across the country are currently applying to university. And many will be desperate to study at particular institutions. Back in 2007, Frances Perraudin (who was at a state school and predicted 3 As at A level) was one of those students. Applying to read English literature, she wanted to go to Edinburgh the following year. She was devastated to be rejected

But Frances, who is now studying English at UCL,  decided to try to find out just why Edinburgh had said no. What she discovered may well be of use to other students too - especially if they come from down south (even if it's only as south as Sheffield!).....

Over to Frances:

"I really wanted to study at Edinburgh and by the time the result came through on my UCAS account, my prospects for the next academic year were not looking too good. I hadn't yet received offers from anywhere I wanted to go to (and hadn't heard from a few places, like UCL).

So, I emailed the application centre at Edinburgh asking them for a detailed explanation of their admissions system. This was in order to assess whether or not it would be worth taking a gap year and re-applying. Was there any way of adjusting my application to increase my chances of being made an offer? My logic was that they couldn’t have filled all their places with students who, like me, were from state schools and had better grades than I did. There had to be something I was missing.

After a few fob-off replies from the admissions office, I got what I was looking for. The email explained that the admissions were administered with a point system. As a student who was predicted AAA at A level I was awarded 4 points. I was given a further point for achieving more than 6A* grades at GCSE.  They awarded 2 points to students who indicated on their personal statement that they were the first generation to apply to university. I am by no means in the first generation in my family to apply to university, but had I been so, I’m sure I would not have thought to mention it on my personal statement (and anyway, how can anybody verify such a claim?) They also explained that they sought to put ‘educational achievement into context’ by looking at A2 point scores from every school for the last three years. This seems fair to me. Although I went to a comprehensive, it was a high-achieving one and I deserved no extra credit for having gone there.

I was also denied a point because my school, which was in Sheffield, was outside Edinburgh’s ‘specified locality’, meaning Scotland, plus areas of England north of Yorkshire and Lancashire. I would also have been awarded a point if any special circumstances had been highlighted by me or by my school. My final score was therefore 5 points.

The level and standard of applications for English literature was such that they only made offers to students with an overall points score of 8 and 7, or applicants with a score of 6/5 who had achieved more than 10A* or all A* at GCSE.

Very few people are aware of this complicated points system, there is nothing about it on Edinburgh’s website, and if it were made clearer many people would save themselves a wasted application.

Whether or not Edinburgh’s admissions process has achieved the ‘widening participation’  it sought to, it is a mechanical system operated by administrators on which the academics have no influence. The evidence seems to be that, while Edinburgh is leading the way, such admissions processes are becoming increasingly widespread. It suggests that for many universities a carefully worded and enthusiastic personal statement, relevant work placements, and endless ‘extracurricular activities’ are unimportant."

I found Frances' piece really interesting, especially as I'm sure that Edinburgh is not the only university to have such policies (although clearly this is not always easy to discover).

I rang the University of Edinburgh for a comment and this is what I was told:

"As a general principal of our admissions policy the University of Edinburgh does seek to set academic achievement in context. In the College of Humanities and Social Science we do operate a points system in the selection of applicants and contextual factors are taken into consideration when we look at a student's application. Details of this system, which has been in place since 2004, are provided on pages 193 and 194 of the undergraduate prospectus for 2010 and on the University website. This includes the definition of locality which is taken into account by CHSS. We do not currently specify the points allocated to each factor as decision-making is not a mechanistic process but also involves the judgement of a professional admissions officer. "

Does this surprise you? Have you experienced anything similar?

Read School Gate:

Why don't students apply for university after they receive their results?

The 20 most popular universities: where students love to study

Jobless graduate sues college: a portent of things to come?

Comments

[another mum]

On this points system, it seems that the only people who can get the maximum 7 /8 points are those who state they are the first in their family to go to University. Even the Scots will only get a max of 6 points otherwise (4 for A levels, 1 for GSCEs, 1 for catchment.

Most odd!

[Kim]

Good point (no pun intended), another Mum. It seems a very odd system. If you get four points for a predicted AAA at A-level, do you perhaps get five points for a predicted AAAA? That's the only other way I can imagine of bringing your point score up.

[Mairi]

As someone who actually goes to Edinburgh University, I find this article highly doubtful. There is absolutely no shortage of English people, southern or otherwise here. What's more the university itself stated it doesn't have a points system and I have no reason to not believe them because I have friends here who study English lit and don't fulfill the criteria above. Having been recently placed in the top 20 universities in the world, Edinburgh is simply competitive. No university admissions policy is perfect, there will always be good candidates who get turned down.

[Matthew]

I was given an offer to study BA English Language and Linguistics at Edinburgh. I'm from the south - as far down as Somerset.

I decided to go for King's College London in the end, but I am certain that I would have been happy and successful at Edinburgh (my eventual insurance choice).

Ignore the article and apply to Edinburgh regardless. Every university will have a different application process to distinguish between the brightest students. I believe that Edinburgh's is very well rounded as it takes into account the academic context of your achievements, your background and the grades attained.

[Hannah]

We do Highers in Scotland, not A-levels, and we have our results for these by the time we apply to university. I suspect we get more points for Highers than for A-level predictions. Certainly when I was at Edinburgh the standard expected from A-level students seemed to be greater. Although this was a few years ago now...

[H]

I think they're letting far too many Southerners in - the number of pashmina-clad braying rich kids from the home counties clogging up Edinburgh is sickening.

[Matthew Nicoll]

Frances was unlucky.

By it's very nature - any university selection system is necessarily subjective - not just Edinburgh.

Why is it that Scottish students complain of finding it difficult to gain entry to 'traditional' English universities who have a heavy English student bias?

The article would have been better if it had addressed the issue of university selection globally as opposed to picking on one university.

[NDD]

Edinburgh is a fantastic city; a fine university too. About the only thing wrong with it is the large number of chippy moaners who complain about "pashmina-clad Southerners."

On my first day there, a second year student employed by the Student Union to introduce freshers to the joys of student life launched into a rant on how he loathed the "Southern Yahs" who made up so much of the student population. It more or less set the tone for the rest of my stay there (I should add that I'm not from England).

This was the late 1980s. I thought this sort of bone-headed class war might have blown over by now, though to judge from the comment from H above, it continues as much as ever.

[Nige]

I think this is a great policy if this is true. If Edinburgh is one of the top 20 universities in the world then it needs to reflect that.
I walk down Nicholson st and hear nothing but southern home counties accents its damn annoying. Its a beautiful city here and needs to be more diverse.

Good on em.

[Edinburgh Graduate]

Having recently graduated from Edinburgh, I think it might have been prudent for the writer of this article to look at some facts and figures or even go to Edinburgh to observe the ratios of 'English'-to-'Scottish' students. I would suggest that there is at least a 50:50 divide if not a higher English percentage. So much so that a reasonably common comment is that 'Edinburgh is where daddy sends his little angel if they don’t get into Oxbridge'. Also the term 'Yah/Rah' is common but what do you expect when there is a Huge divide between some of the poorer Scots students and the 'Pashmina clad' richer ones.

Would also like to point out that I didn’t hit any of those criteria above, AAB 1A* top 5 elitist school, from surrey not first generation and yet I managed to place on my courses fast track course. Perhaps the school didn't like your personal statement?

[Carol]

In both of my previous two positions, working in publishing, the person working directly below me was an Edinburgh Uni English grad. Time and time again, I was left to correct their spelling, grammar and syntax. Their skills of analysis and communication were no where near what I would have expected. This was deeply confusing to me, as when I had filled out my UCAS form, my 'points' would not have been high enough to gain admittance to Edinburgh, and I studied Fine Art. A good reputation is not always deserved.

[Ed]

Having graduated from Edinburgh in 1994 (albeit in a Technical Subject) I concur about the comments on the Red Jeaned (as they were then) "Yah" Brigade - they were much in evidence - English Public School educated - and a source of minor friction. Personally it never intimidated me (State School 100%) although as my Children are now privately educated I wonder whether it really left any influence.

[Callum]

I'm not surprised in the slightest. A girl I know was rejected from UCL on the day she applied. After contacting the university she asked why she had been rejected so fast. Her answer: 'we have too many white public school girls applying to read English Literature'. They never even looked at her application.

[Jack]

There are plenty of good Uiversities in England, apply to York, Durham or Newcastle if you want to move north.

If the Scottish want to engage in triabalism, then so be it, they will be the ones who lose out.

[Kim]

@Mairi: "As someone who actually goes to Edinburgh University, I find this article highly doubtful. There is absolutely no shortage of English people, southern or otherwise here. What's more the university itself stated it doesn't have a points system".

Er, that's odd. Because what the university told Sarah when she phoned was, "In the College of Humanities and Social Science we do operate a points system..."

[Katie]

This is completely the opposite to the experience I had. In fact I applied for Economics and Politics (Humanities and Social Sciences)...I live just outside of London, got ABC at A-Level, got 5A's and 4B's at GSCE and went to an independent school (apparently everything was against me in the points system)I was however offered a place and despite missing a grade from my offer (BBB), was still accepted. Perhaps the points system only comes into effect only highly over-subscribed courses?

[Harriet]

I am currently studying english literature at Edinburgh University and am in my second year of study. I went to a public school in Edinburgh. This however did not make my application easier in the slightest. Due to financial reasons i had to make the decision to stay in my home city of Edinburgh and live at home with my parents. I hope readers appreciate that just because my parents were considerate enough to send me to a public school does not necessarily mean i am from a wealthy background at all! My parents struggled to pay for my education the whole time i was at school. Anyways, i therefore purely applied to scottish universities. I was rejected from the English Literature course despite my three As at advanced higher. Luckily however, i was accepted for the History of Art course which is also a highly respected course at the University. I worked my ass off in my first year and studied English lit as my outside subject. Because of my hard work and determination i was allowed to change my degree to one of English Literature. You must remember advanced highers are far more highly respected than A levels because they are in fact of a much harder standard. And GCSEs are not even considered by Edinburgh university so that is a pretty invalid excuse. You should be pleased you were accepted to UCL. I assure you, i would have been rejected; Scottish and from a public school. The odds were always going to be against me. You however, having went to a state school would give you many advantages - when it comes to university application as well as exam results. I assure you, i am the only scottish student in my english literature tutorial so your argument is pretty weak. Stop moaning about the fact your personal statement and grades were obviously not good enough and focus on your studies. The journey i've been through to get where i am today proves i deserve to be on this course and i never moaned along the way until i saw your article. Stop complaining and remember you are at one of the top universities in the country. If you are as bright as you claim then you will succeed in your future.

[Tom]

Why can't we just make the exams harder so they actually separate out the candidates?

Universities should not even be allowed to ask about gender, ethnic group or schooling. They should be given an anonymised ID number and the exam results.

[David Bateman]

I graduated from Edinburgh University in 1992 having previously attended an ordinary Scottish state school in Edinburgh. In a Linguistics class of around 25 students, 24 of us were English and I was the only Scot.

[Jen]

I graduated from Edinburgh in 2007, and the student ratio is roughly 50% English, 30% Scottish and 20% international. As English people pay higher fees than Scots (and universities always need more cash) there's a very high ratio of students from England, and it makes it more competitive for Scots to get a place - particularly if they went to public school (I'm Scottish, and like the writer of the article went to a good state school).It's easier still for the international students who pay at least 8 grand a year! Don't let this article put you off applying, you'll have a great time as long as all the chip-shouldered whingers banging on about Southerners don't get to you too much!

[Alison]

We discovered Edinburgh's policy quite by chance after driving up from Yorkshire earlier this year for an open day. My daughter wanted to study French and Russian, is predicted 3 A at A level and has 10 GCSEs - 3A*, 5A, 2B We had a very good day, spoke to tutors who were enthusiastic, listened to the Head of Admissions talk where it was highlighted - again - as per the prospectus and website that the offer would be BBB. It was only by chance at the end of the day after a comment by the language tutor that the academic departments no longer play any role in admissions at Edinburgh that we decided to go and actually talk to one of the admissions clerical staff. We were dumbfounded to hear her say that as my daughter did not have at least 8A* at GCSE it would be extremely unlikely that she would receive an offer. We went back to the language tutors who were dumbfounded and then finally to the head of language admissions who confirmed the policy. She also said that as we were not from the "local" catchment area, did not have any extenuating circumstances we would not get extra points. It was a wasted day and resulted in some tears but at least we didn't waste an application. I understand that the university is hugely oversubscribed but they need to make their policy very very plain rather than just printing that the offer is BBB which encourages students to think that's what they need to get in.

[pedant]

If Harriet can write "having went" and be allowed to change course mid-Uni to English, I don't think the English applicants who are rejected by Edinburgh and then go to a top English Uni need be too concerned.

[Bianca]

I agree with Pedant, Harriet: "having went"? Us Scots are much better at English than that. I hope your English really is as good as you say and you actually do deserve to be on Edinburgh's English lit course.

[xandra]

Edinburgh also does not consider deferred applicants as highly as others.

[F]

Everyone has these stories, Oxford will interview someone one year for deferred entry, but if they reapply during a gap year, reject them straight out.
Apply for something else and switch to English Lit by the end of second year, if you are really worried about getting in, but I know people from below Yorkshire at Edinburgh who do English Lit, and they can't all have 12 A* at GSCE

[Kim]

Now, Bianca, anyone who takes someone else to task for writing "having went" should know better than to start a sentence "Us Scots are much better..."

[Donald]

Those commenting on the paucity of Scots at Edinburgh should look at http://www.planning.ed.ac.uk/Strategic_Planning/BSC/01Data.htm

[PM Ordish]

Sadly, I'm afraid the article was true! I took my daughter to Edinburgh University's Open Day this year and we were told that inspite of the minimum requirement to read English Lit, as per the prospectus, is 3 B's at A level, because my daughter (when questioned by a member of the Admissions staff) is being educated at a small, independent school in the south of England, does not come from a deprived area and had one parent that went to university, her application would only be considered if she had 10 A*s at GCSE and 3 A's at A level. She is most definitely not one of the braying pashmina brigade, as one delightful person stated most southern undergraduates appear to be(!) and although disappointed that her application would probably not be looked at she has decided not to waste it applying to Edinburgh in spite of being predicted 2A*s and 2 A's at A level! She and I were quite happy to accept Edinburgh's positive discrimiation policy (although 'discrimination' in any form is plain discrimination in my book!) but we were both very cross that it was NOT stated in the prospectus and the trip had cost me £300!

[John]

There has been far too much political involvement regarding university entrance...we need to return to the days of the 'interview' - those that suit, should be those who are accepted, regardless of a few grade variations. You cannot assess a potential student via a computor!

[rk]

i feel sorry for the young lady who was rejected by edinburgh, but just a cursory glance at their prospectus tells you that they reserve places for scottish students first. also, ucl is a much much better university than edinburgh, so what is she complaining about??!!

[Emily]

This article's scared the hell out of me now! I'm a prospective Edinburgh applicant for 2010, from Northern Ireland but have been living in the middle east for 5 years, and as I had the misfortune to have parents clever enough to get into uni, it seems I shall be discriminated against.
This is annoying, but hey, way of the world.

[Max]

Where exactly on UCAS did it even provide to offer to mention if I was a first generation university applicant? I was aware that there was a bias against non Scottish students nevertheless, I thought that this would only occur for subjects like English Literature, Economics, History, Law and Medecine

[Jackson]

Our daughter is at Cambridge and was offered places at Imperial and UCL. She was rejected by Edinburgh. We think that it is unlikely academic qualifications were primary consideration used by Edinburgh in making their decision. Postal code probably mattered more.

[JJ]

Oh, for heaven's sake. And when are we going to get the article about how Hamish McSporran frae Edinburgh applied to Oxford, or Bristol, or York, clutching his 5 grade A Highers, and was turned down flat because he hadn't any A levels or GCSEs? It works both ways, you know. My daughter, who was a very high-flying school pupil at a private school in Edinburgh, went down to Oxford on a fishing expedition before deciding which universities to apply to and was so furious at the attitude to Scots and Scottish qualifications that she encountered there that she decided not to waste an application on it. And rightly so, in my and her father's view. (She went to an ancient Scottish university and got a First, btw). There are always going to be biases towards the local education system, whichever that is, and someone with qualifications from a different system, which like it or not the English education system is from the POV of Scottish universities, is always going to be on a different footing. Get over it, as Scottish students have to when applying to English univerisities. It's how things are.

[AW]

I applied to Edinburgh last year for English Literature and French, got rejected but I am now very happy at Sheffield. I wasn't sure if the course at Edinburgh was what I wanted, as much as I love the city itself, so they made that decision easier for me!

For those prospective students out there who aren't sure if they will get in (like Emily)- if you have a space on your UCAS form, apply anyway. You stand no chance at all of getting a place at Edinburgh (or at any other university) if you don't apply. If you get rejected, it most likely will hurt at the time, but everything will turn out for the best in the end.

Don't let the attitudes of a few unpleasant individuals in Edinburgh get you down either. So what if they think all southern girls are spoilt rahs? It's ultimately their loss. Just walk past with your held up high and show them up for the sad little pathetic no-lives they are. Often easier said than done, I know, but it can be done. You get these idiots wherever you go in life.

Good luck to those that are applying to university this year!