An emotional response to Manhunt 2

Manhunt 2, which had been banned in the UK last year, has now been given permission for release in June after an appeal by Rockstar Games. Part of the defence used by Rockstar is that although the game is violent and is about committing murder it is no more violent than a Tarantino film.

I think the comparison is missing the very point of video games. My two young sons will always choose to play on the Wii rather than watch TV, the reason being that they like interacting rather than just passively watching the activity on screen. If I am watching a film and one character tortures another, it is the writer and director who are choosing to do the maiming. If I am controlling the character, then it's my choice to torture or not. I'm no psychologist, but that has to have a much bigger impact.

The latest Splinter Cell used the emotional choice you have in the game rather well. You have to make two opposing groups both trust you. One of the first assignments ends with you being asked to kill an innocent helicopter pilot who begs you not to. The game makes it clear that it's your choice and you don't have to do it to continue the game. I did kill him to gain more trust with the bad guys and, much to my surprise, I genuinely felt bad about it. This isn't something I've ever experienced before in a game, and it raises the question not of what Manhunt 2 involves but of what emotional involvement you have. A much harder thing to quantify.

I was talking to a friend about games recently and he was extolling Bioshock. One of his main selling points was that he got to burn a dead cat and hit it with a wrench while it was floating in water, making it bob pleasingly. To be fair to him, he was using this as an example of the interactivity of the environment. I hope it's safe to say that for him, Bioshock is purely entertainment and not a reflection of his ability to form emotional ties, as it seemed to be for me in Splinter Cell. Still, I wasn't overly convinced about this and have since made sure I always face him and avoid making sudden movements when chatting.

I hope he doesn't read this. I wouldn't want to make him angry.

Comments

[David W]

I have a friend who had a similar experience..

He'd eat Thai food and ramble on about how he was a 4 star general on CoD..

I miss him

[Frank]

"My two young sons will always choose to play on the Wii rather than watch TV"

Your two sons shouldn’t be playing manhunt. It sickens me that in this day and age the government can censor legally produced materiel intended for an adult audience. What 'moral' right do they have to protect me?

[Nathan]

I think Manhunt is a game with horrible values and should be avoided by everybody; I greatly despise this series. I also believe that adults should be mature and responsible enough to make the choice to accept or reject this software without much intervention from the government. Adults should be responsible enough to NOT sell the game to minors AND not acquire the game specifically for a minor AND control it so that minors have minimal access to it. The government should have minimal intervention rights over an issue like this.

[MaxC]

Extensive studies have shown that people become "anaesthetised" to violence the more they are exposed to it on film and television; further studies have shown people can be led bit by bit to inflict pain.
Moreover, sickening imagery seems to stick in the brain. I still remember horrific scenes from a Stephen King book that I would prefer were not lodged in my mind. This is true obscenity.
These games seem to plumb new and subtle depths. Whoever designed them is sick. Surely manufacturers have a moral duty in these matters?

Let's not forget, though, that parents have a moral duty to mind what their children get up to.

Orwell in "1984" described audiences laughing at helicopters ditching in the sea and children drowning - it's a bit behind schedule, but people, welcome to 1984.

[Dave]

You state that: "If I am watching a film and one character tortures another, it is the writer and director who are choosing to do the maiming. If I am controlling the character, then it's my choice to torture or not. I'm no psychologist, but that has to have a much bigger impact."

Actually, a recent report by the BBFC showed the exact opposite.

"gamers appear to forget they are playing games less readily than film goers forget they are watching a film because they have to participate in the game for it to proceed. They appear to non-games players to be engrossed in what they are doing, but, they are concentrating on making progress, and are unlikely to be emotionally involved;"

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/news/stories/20070417.html

[Adam Watson]

Many people who criticise manhunt for its values speak in ignorance. It's purely for entertainment, and the gamer realises this as soon as they pick up the controller. I also completely agree with Frank; what moral right do the government have to 'protect' adults from buying legally produced material designed for adults? If a child gets his/her hands on an 18 rated game, its the parents and, contrary to some viewpoints, NOT the developers, fault.

We have the right to make up out own minds.

[radford]

lol. manhunt is simply a game. you're all just sad that you sit in your house crying because of a violent game. get a grip.

[Guy]

If you ban a game like Manhunt then you also have to ban: every film that ever shows a person being murdered, yes, that includes Agatha Christie's Poirot! Its a game, its not real!

[Professor Homunculus]

I'm an evil, immoral, twisted iconoclast. So why wouldn't I love something like these games? Because they are drone-makers. Evil isn't bad. Evil drones are bad. "They know not what they do," Is what you end up saying about evil drones.

Ah, faggeddit. Your drone-children will never get it.

[James Wood]

Your completely missing the point, did you not notice the 18 rating for the game ? You talk about your children but this game has nothing to do with your children its for adults, just like a tarantino film is for adults, god it's getting so frustrating when any clown can start writing stories about what ever they want and twist it in to something negative.

[John C]

I think enforcing the rating of games will solve this, and more burnable cats in games. bobbing flamable cats. now thats the future of games.

[The Magic Dragon]

James Wood, I think it's you that have missed the point. David talks about his kids liking the involvement with games vs. TV, not letting his kids play Manhunt. Emotional attachment should be an important factor in rating a game. If a Tom and Jerry cartoon was rated purely on the content and not the context it would have an 18 certificate. Personally I love the idea of games that give you a closer emotional attachment to the game characters. God it's getting so frustrating when any clown can comment on a story without reading it properly...

[Dave]

As well as extensive studies showing that exposure to violence in films and games affects the mind there are other equally extensive studies that shows they have no affect at all.
Let kids play with suitable games but let adults play whatever games they want. A dead avatar is not real

[Decaf]

Might i add; that I think David is trying to point out that violent games are de-sensitizing our attitude, as a scoiety, towards violence. YES i agree that 'killing' a person on a game is merely executing some code but nonetheless in your minds eye you are 'killing', many gamers will acknowledge such a point but then explain that they are detached or are able to discern the difference between; well a game and real life. Though banning all games with excessive violence is rather extreme (all it will add is notoriety) but by reinforcing strict ratings on the games and policing such ratings (how many times have i bought MA/R rated material without the need for ID; Nathan you are spot on) through different methods of ID (no im not condoning a Police state). Though all in all; im a gamer and enjoy the new found freedoms, which i might add - we have in real life, that games are giving us: the power of choice.

[Dross]

My child was a well behaved angel, who loved nothing more than watching Barney the Dinosaur, singing happy songs and hugging complete strangers to share the joy and happiness that exuded from him.

Then, one day, he went round to a friends house up the road to check out this Manhunt - I simply assumed he was talking about the latest Paris Hilton reality TV show - and since that day he has become a maniacal knife-wielding assassin. He attacked the postman yesterday and the hellfire emanating from him shows no sign of abating. I am typing this from my laptop in the closet, where I have locked myself in fear for my own life.

Blasted TV game has ruined my child. Oh well, at least he's stopped watching Barney...

[Laurence]

If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you don't want your kids to play it, how's about checking what they're doing now and again and not putting the burden on society.

Stop removing peoples right to choose. You might care about this game. You might label it 'sick', I don't care. Respect my right not to care and move on. There's nothing for you to see here. I don't need you as a moral guide. I'm an adult and can choose what I want to do (or not).

It's called a democracy, and if the people didn't want this game the publishers would make no money and it would not be here. It is, so guess what: People want it.

I don't try and make you stop caring about things. Please stop trying to make me care.

[Rik]

I personally think man hunt is a brilliant game, not because of all the torture and the killings, that is not the only point of the game (although heavily involved).
I have been playing these games for many years. I am 20, and would say that for 13-14 years of my life, I have had a computer system and some games which involve violence (street fighter, fight night, streets of rage etc).
The point I am trying to make is just because people play such games does not necessarily mean they will turn into violent sociopaths that get high on infilcting pain onto others simply because they play a game every so often.
It seems that the gaming industry is being scapegoated for the behaviour of some young people that commit atrocious acts and the media which claims "Video games increase violent activites in younger people".

[Crispytina]

hm. I hate it when people say, "It's nobody else's business if I choose to desensitize myself to violence." Of course it's my business. I have to live on the same planet as all of you.

Games like this give your mind a chance to practice distance. The eye picks up these images. The mind initiates them, and associates it with emotional distance.

As for government involvement, the purpose of law is to regulate things that harm society, but that is a slippery slope. It's up to individuals to regulate their own desensitization, I think.

[Chris Hooper]

why can't people see the difference between revelling in bloodthirsty violence on a video game and taking the same pleasure in suffering in the real world?

you can very easily enjoy depictions of casual sadism without wanting to disembowell your neighbour with a coathanger, or watch in amusement as a small child gets run over by a bus.

the two moral standards are very different and in no way comparable. i personally love playing manhunt...i think its brilliant fun.

[JD]

I used to think these games were harmless.

But then my 14 year old son was playing grand theft auto (a game about stealing cars) on the Sony-PSP for about 6 hours. Later that night we caught him starting up our car and was about to drive off before he was stopped by us!.

My opinion now is that it is not good for a young mind to focus their time role-playing in crime or murder.

[S]

There are studies showing the short term effect of violent films (and probably games) on children, which have shown that unless the person seen to be doing the violence is rewarded (which is probably why Manhunt attracts so much attention), they tend not to imitate.

This should be irrelevant - people shouldn't be allowing their children to access games like this. Now were there studies on what mentally stable adults do in the same situation (please point me in the direction if you know of some) there'd be more to defend your point.

Of course 'shouldn't' doesn't stop children and mentally unstable adults from playing a game. So how can we stop this, without completely banning all games that are violent?

Remember that many (though not all) of the people that push the violent games issue won't be avid players of games themselves - Bully (or Canis Canem Edit) apparently nearly got banned because it was called "GTA in a school" and would "encourage children to be violent to their teachers" when actually in game, said teachers and other authority members are invincible (and therefore it is self defeating to attempt attacking them) and many of the violent situations were more a case of self defense.

[joss]

people who say games screw up children's minds are idiots. im 14 and have played video games for as long as i can remember. i turned out fine!! playing on gta and burnout hasnt made me want to engage in illegal street racing, or have sex with prostitutes then kill them for my monet back!! people nowadays are just idiotic p***** plain and simple.

now im off to buy some crack then steal somebody's ca (lolage)

[Moneyshot]

Ah the Man Hunt game isnt on he Wil for a start.And the writer was saying his kids would rather play games than watch TV-not that he lets his children play a R18 game.
If you let your kids..under 18 play it your a muppet.

Prepare yourselves for anarchy and chaos! Young people's minds are simular to sponges, and if we give them blood to suck up theres no comprehending the psychological effects it will have on them, and society as a whole. Remember, young people are the future! Is our future filled with carnage?

[nick]

Its rather naive to say parents should decide what games their children play. Kids will always get around any form of parental censorship. Didn't we when we were young? You have to try and set limits, if you're a responsible parent, but you have little hope of enforcing them. If the games were censored at the design point it would help, but the makers want money and the designers aren't all that much older than the target audience. Kids today are definitely more at ease with violence as result of gangsta rap and violent games.

[Ben]

As a mental health student I have noticed alot of studies on here have appeared from mid-air. I would reference your writing next time you try and put an argument forward.
The age rating has been put on the game for a reason. Stick to it, dont buy your children games that have an 18+ rating, and im quite sure you wont find any 14 year old children killing everyone they see due to the influence of this game.
If they are influenced by a game to this extent or to any extent that would influence them to do something out of the "norm" then they were in trouble anyway.

[Elizabeth]

I'd just like to say it is our responsibility as adults to express our concerns to the youth of today. Parents cannot watch over their children 24 hours a day everyday, but they can explain their fears to their kids. As evident from Joss' comment even under the age of 18 people can think for themselves and make their own choices.
I don't agree with violence, and I get enough of it in the news to satisfy my morbid curiosity.
We all have to make our own choices, and then accept responsibility for them

[Owen]

Has anyone who has made a comment here actually played this game?

Have any of you played the games predecessor?

If you want to pass judgement on something you have to experience it first rather than follow the Daily Mail down a dank oppressive hole.

Not only is the first incarnation of this game a tad boring an repetitive, without the media storm people and a bored media have created I would have languished in the charts for a few weeks and vanished to the discount shelves.

"If games were censored at the design point" -(nick | Apr 7, 2008 4:25:10 PM) Not as long as I can draw breath they wont be.

[Frankie T]

So those who talk about this government censorship crap. If they invented a game about child abuse... would you still be such a wooly minded liberal? The ability to perform inhamane acts for entertainment worries me adult alien or beast?

[Alan]

I have played every Rockstar game that has come out. I have used digital whores in cars and beat them to death with bats to get my money back - that is "in the game".

Away from the game I have a life of my own. I have a family and kids and pets. I don’t beat or threaten my wife. I don’t abuse my children and I adore my pets.

My kids don't play the games because I am a responsible parent and I know how to lock down their PC's and consoles.

I don't kill anybody, I don't have the urge to kill anybody, I don't fight, drink rarely and never do any drugs.

Please tell me how playing those games have changed me into a violent psychopath that will kill the next person that agitates me?

The fact is they haven’t had any affect negatively whatsoever and I hardly think I am an exception to the rule.

I can find you studies that say these violent games have no relevant affect whatsoever on a person in their life away from the game.

I want the government to leave me alone, I can make the decisions just fine as can anybody who has had proper upbringing and is responsible.

[Noir]

What's desperately needed in America is a catch-all store which only sells adult-related materials. A place where you can buy porn, cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana (once legal), adult games and other media....

The fact that you can pick up a copy of Manhunt 2 at your local Gamestop is disturbing. There is no qualification that disables a clerk from selling these types of games to 10 year-olds. Sure, an M rating is a good way to keep it visible, but there's no law that says selling these games to minors construes a penalty.

[Me]

The idea the the government has any control over a game is mind boggling. Liberty and freedom have been trashed. Parent your own kids and the government wont have too. *sheesh*

[Alsadius]

If you've got an emotional connection to the people you're killing, you're not the sort of person who would be able to tolerate Manhunt 2 for more than about 30 seconds, and thus it won't scar you too badly since you'll put it down as soon as you realize it's a game about brutal slaughter. And if you're not the sort of person who cares about in-game actions past the visceral, and slightly morbid thrill of seeing what the difference is between a shotgun to the head and a shotgun to the groin(roughly my experience with Soldier of Fortune back in highschool), you're not the sort who would care about Manhunt 2.

The game is a very concise proof of why package labeling is a good idea, but it's not ban-worthy, no matter how grotesque it is. If an adult wants to buy a game this violent, why not let them? It's not like we ban that content in any other medium.

[The Ghost Of Trig]

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, David, but your column appears to imply that you would allow your young sons to play an eighteen rated game. Please tell us that you are joking?

[Gary Tahmasbi]

Well I own and have completed Manhunt 2 and can I say it is no more violent than similar titles out there. My heart has raced more and I've felt more involved with both Condemned titles to be honest but I hear nothing about that. I have it on PSP and Wii and with regards to immersion into the game, yeah it's there but it's not as harsh as people may have you believe. In regards of it being bleak, yes it is. In regards of it being relentless and showing no signs of emotion to the killings, rubbish. This is clearly a case of people writing stories which create a buzz to keep their jobs. If you want to trash something like Manhunt then start at something like the movie Creep. That was sick, twisted, showed no emotion etc. Just because I didn't stand up and wave my arms around during the movie controlling the guy on screen doesn't make it's impact any less than playing a game on Wii. If you don't like it stay away, but you will have to accept the fact that some people including myself find it entertaining. Grow up

[Double D]

I think manhunt is a game of vilence but its for the fun of it i dont think its a big deal with this violence in Manhunt 2 its game not real life