Meet the Alonso brothers on The Game Podcast

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Yet another packed show as we turn our focus to the Premiership and the upcoming England qualifiers. However, we do deviate a bit from football after events in the rugby World Cup last weekend. France upset New Zealand and every non-Antipodean celebrates. Except there were two very obvious forward passes in the build-up to Les Bleus decisive try. And yet, curiously, nobody seems to care. Can you imagine if something like this happened in the football World Cup? What would happen if Brazil were knocked out in the quarter-finals by Sweden because of a blatant refereeing error? We'd never heard the end of it (we're still hearing about the Hand of God 21 years later).

Yet, somehow, in rugby, it's OK. Are rugby-folk so different from us football folk? Alyson thinks so. She reckons they're just not too fussed, largely because the game is so complicated, most fans don't really understand the rules.

Bill simply points out that the problem with rugby is that it's fundamentally boring most of the time, so the minute something exciting happens - like the ball reaching the backs and some kind of attacking play developing - we're all willing to look the other way when the rules are broken.

We celebrate the job Sam Allardyce is doing at Newcastle. Some - yes, I'll hold my hand up - were sceptical about Big Sam, but so far he's living up to expectations. I think he's bought very well and Guillem does too (weird, we're agreeing...). Alyson, however is not a believer: she says he's doing exactly what his predecessors have been doing, they're ninth, which is no great shakes.

Liverpool have won once in their last six meaningful games (sorry, the League Cup doesn't count). What's the problem? Is it Rafa's rotation? Guillem reckons it's the fact that Rafa's assistants aren't giving him the right inputs as they're still settling into the job. Alyson blames Rafa (and, yes, it's the rotation). I'm not convinced it's the rotation, but they have paid the price for individual errors. Most of all, where Benitez has come up short this year is that I think he's failed to find a Plan B he can turn to when Steven Gerrard isn't carrying the team. Gerrard, as great as he is, can't do it on his own. Yet you get the sense that the rest of the line-up are merely role players, at least for now. And that shouldn't be the case, because there is some genuine talent there.

We also take a quick look at England and the three big questions facing McClaren. Is he right to stick with Paul Robinson? Who, out of Gerrard, the returning Frank Lampard and Gareth Barry, who played so well last time out, is going to get the short end of the stick? And is the Wayne Rooney-Michael Owen the only realistic combination up front? Listen in to find out what we think (you may also be surprised that Guillem reckons that England have the best group of wingers in Europe...)

You may have read Guillem's interview with the Alonso brothers, Xabi and Mikel, in TheGame. Here's your chance to hear other extracts from the interview. That clinking sound you hear occasionally is Guillem refilling their drinks ... yes he had to liquor them up. Billy's stat this week is all about Carlton Cole. It's fair to say he hasn't - thus far - lived up to expectations. But I would never have imagined the stat Bill comes up with. And then we have the usual Quick Hits, which, typically range far and wide. Plus, other goodies. So please listen in and join the debate. You'll thank us later (we hope).

Comments

[kap]

gab, why would you go on chelsea tv if they don't pay you? it's not fear of sushi eateries is it?

[Gabriele Marcotti]

1. Bharath - I agree with you and, I think, that's what Benitez wanted to do. Gerrard wide right with licence to roam, much like Zidane in his latter Real years. But, for whatever reason, Gerrard thinks it doesn't work, the media agrees with it and Benitez has abandoned the experiment.
2. Craig - I don't think Totti is the best player in the world, but he definitely belongs among the top 30 for 2007. Flat-track bully? Yeah, if Serie A is a flat-track. And if the four goals in nine games in the CL is flat-track. You've never seen him do anything against a good team? Maybe you didn't watch him against Lyons last year or indeed United in the first leg last year. Were France a good team at Euro 2000? He set up what should have been the winning goal in the final...
3. My two cents on the "no striker, no title" mantra. Roma don't have a genuine centerforward, they finished second in Serie A and reached the quarterfinals of the CL. Barcelona won the CL without a genuine centerforward. Arsenal won the title without a genuine centerforward.

[Bill Edgar]

Maggie - I agree with you that Gerard Pique has enormous promise. His tackling and poise on the ball were excellent against Coventry in the Carling Cup but it was overlooked because almost every other Manchester United player was awful in that defeat.

As for the United striker debate, they had an authentic centre forward in all but five of their 38 league games last season (they won three, drew one and lost one of those five games). They had Saha (18 starts as a centre forward), Solskjaer (7), Larsson (5) and Smith (5). (Solskjaer and Smith also made a combined three starts in midfield.)

[Guillem Balague]

Zulfy, I insist, ‘no striker, no title’ (and the same goes for Brendan). As I said at the time, Ronaldo did lots of things that should normally be done by a striker (heading crosses and set pieces, appearances in the box, etc) but this year is taking longer to see the same level of performance from him. Liverpool have got time to sort things out because I don’t believe Arsenal will continue this form till the end of the season and Manchester United will struggle to score despite their impressive performance against Wigan. And Chelsea should better write off this season in terms of title fight –there is too much unrest in the changing room. And I totally agree with you about Pique, he can be a midfielder if sir Alex gives him time to settle there

Jo S, what the Spanish players forget to mention (but really disagree with) is the referees. They allow too much in the Premiership, a broken leg seems to be part of the action when some violent conduct and tackling can easily be avoided. That is why sometimes the likes of Benitez need to come out asking for protection to someone like Torres. From Spain we should bring the ability to pause. If you added that pause to the crazy (and entertaining) pace of Premiership football you would have teams that will regularly succeed in Europe.

[Craig]

Hi guys,

I was just reading the post about Totti being the best player in the world and quite frankly I just don't see it. Admittedly I haven't seen him a great deal but every time I have he has done nothing. When I was watching the United - Roma game recently I was trying to think how this guy possibly won the golden boot when he looks so average. I don't watch much Italian football but am I right in thinking he's a bit of a flat track bully? I've never seen him do anything against a good team. He seems to shoot on sight, much like Lampard, which could explain the amount of goals, and you'd have to be pretty stupid, good player though he is, to argue that he's the best player in the world. Also, I just wanted to point out that Newcastle haven't been very good defensively this year.

Cheers
Craig

[Bharath Janardhan]

Hi Gab,

I remember you writing in your top 50 players list that Rafa Benitez just puts out 10 other players and just lets Gerrard roam wherever he wants.
But is playing in central midfield in a two man partnership really the answer to that? If he has Alonso alongside him, who seems to be crucial to Liverpool's flow, then there's a greater emphasis on Gerrard to defend, especially in Europe.
So maybe what is needed for him to flourish is to play Mascherano and Alonso in central midfield, and let Gerrard really go wherever he wants to without constantly worrying about tracking back.

[Andy]

For sure Alonso is missed by Liverpool, but I think that it is Agger and the partnership of Carragher and Hyypia that is more significant. This is not for the defensive errors discussed in the podcast, but for the defensive line and the distribution of the ball.

Hyypia is slow and getting slower. Carragher has never been fast. Recently liverpool are sitting deeper. The gap between the front and the back in both attack and defense is growing. This results in more space for the opposition and a lot more hoofed balls that give possession back to the opposition.

In his day then Hyypia has been pretty good at distributing the ball, but those days seem to have gone.

[Gabriele Marcotti]

wow--- gotta get busy

1. Jo - First off, I don't get paid when I go on ChelseaTV. Second, my point was that the press went overboard in depicting Grant as some kind of fool. You're "selectively editing" here, BTW. You don't mention that he was successful (at that level) as Israel boss. And that he has more coaching experience that Gullit and Vialli (who did fairly well at Chelsea as I recall) or indeed Keane and Southgate. None of this means he was a clever appointment of course. But why this viciousness towards the guy? Shouldn't he be given a chance to fail.
2. Luther - you're spot on with the retrospective punishment. As for Clemence, he only works with the goalkeepers a few days a year, I don't think he can be blamed.
3. Aidan - Neither Taylor nor Rozenahl are 100 percent right now as I understand it. My point was that that is the kind of partnership you can build around. Cacapa is old and Faye is a bit of hacker, IMHO.
4. Dean B - You're right. It's an absolute joke. When I think that Totti and Ibrahimovic and David Villa are misisng but Cannavaro, Thuram, Buffon and Marquez are there, well, waht can you say?

[Brendan]

Guillem,

I don't think Liverpool are Premiership favourites. As much as it pains me to say it, United have more depth and versatility than anyone else and their challenge does not hinge on new players bedding in quickly - they will be in the thick of things even if Tevez, Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson only make fitful contributions.

By contrast, Liverpool's challenge requires Babel, Benayoun and particularly Torres to sustain form and fitness - and both Babel and Torres may be in for a shock when games come thick and fast in December/January. Next year is more realistic. Arsenal have started well, but they are yet to face a serious challenge and are finished if Fabregas is out for any length of time. Chelsea remain resilient but are undergoing their own changes.

Gab,

With due respect, there is no comparison between Mascherano's distribution and Xabi's. No one else in the Liverpool squad can do the job he does in moving the ball out of defence. Frankly, I think Pirlo and Xavi are the only other players in Europe capable of performing his role at a similar level.

I do think Masch is every bit as good a player as Xabi in absolute terms, but the demand for a specialist destroyer in the holding role is limited to occasions where you face a great between the lines player - and there's simply not that many of them.

However, when Liverpool do face such a player, there is similarly no comparison between Xabi and Masch's abilities to contain a such player, either. You only need to compare how Xabi fared against Kaka in the first half of Istanbul and late in the game in Athens compared to Masch's efforts in Athens to see the difference.

That said, you are right to suggest one from six is sub-standard irrespective of injuries.

[Jamie Artt]

May seem like a daft comment, and I realise that time is an issue with the podcast, but I really moss the coverage of La Liga and Serie A!
I try to follow the big European Leagues as much as possible and try to get to some of their games on a regular basis, it was great to hear a regular commentary and update on what was going on.
I also know that the vast majority of listeners probably aren't bothered but it seems some of the guest interviews take up huge ammounts of time which could be better devoted to other things!

Just my 2p though, all in all I still enjoy the show, otherwise I wouldn't bother writing this!

[Dean B]

Gab or Guillem

Next week can you please look at the farce that is the recent FIFA world player of the year nominations ? No mention at all of the best player in Italy (and in my opinion Europe) last year Francesco Totti. Despite winning the golden boot, playing a major role in getting Roma to the quarters of the CL, finnishing a respectable 2nd in Serie A and winning the Coppa Italia. What does 'El Capitano' have to do to get some recognition. I though it was based on what you had achieved in the calendar year ? Kaka and Messi don't even come close to what Totti achieved this year. Do you thin his actions in previous tournaments and his decision to take early international retirement has gone against him ?

Thanks
Dean B, Bonkle Scotland

[Gabriele Marcotti]

Hi Brendan:

the Alonso point is an excellent one... except for one thing: I would have thought that Mascherano could do the same job.
Apart from that, I agree. Except, to play devil's advocate, I would think you would still expect LIverpool to succeed even without Agger and Alonso, rather than getting one win in six.

[Maggie Cassidy]

All this talk about Avram Grant, can you tell me about the coaching set-ups elsewhere? Is/was the all powerful manager a uniquely British thing?

I have this stereotype of a egomaniac interfering owner and a machiavellian director of football, and the coach being much more a short term hired hand, although they can still be very high profile(like Capello) - remind anyone of Chelsea at all?

I understand some have to be elected which adds another political strand to the mix.

What's the usual set-up abroad or is there a huge variation of structure everywhere in Europeland?

[Zulfy]

Guys, I think you were way too premature in backing Newcastle. They are the basket case of English football and always will be.
Guillem, you said 'No striker, No Title' referring to United. But only last season they had Saha injured for most of the campaign and often played Giggs and Rooney up front and still won the league. They also got rid of Smith and got in Tevez which is an improvement x10. Once again I think they'll look to recruit in that area come January.
Thing with Liverpool is that by the time they get things sorted in terms of backroom staff and form etc. it will probably be already too late for the title. Though I do agree rotation is not a problem, but only when it's like for like, when Liverpool rotate there seems to be a massive dip in quality, i.e. Kuyt for Torres!. I think Liverpool should maintain a core of the side for all major games, Carra, Gerard, Babel and Torres.
My Prediction: Chelsea to finish above Liverpool.

Oh and is Pique a massive star in the making? I've seen very few defenders (if any) in his age group look so good on the ball.

Also, why no mention of Afonso Alvez and his SEVEN-goal haul at the weekend?

[Guillem Balague]

Brendan, I agree with most of what you say. There is no fluency in Liverpool's game and that is clearly down to Xabi not being there. There is a dangerous lightness at the back and Agger is a better solution than Hyypia. But althought all that is true, I see something else happening which is worrying. Is the Liverpool squad strong enough? Having Malouda and Heinze would certainly made it stronger. Why are the players scared to try things? Why are they physically not well? Why cant some big players make an impact for often? That certainly has got nothing to do with rotations, which as you say seems to explain everything, specially the bad things. There has been changes at the club at the staff level and I wonder if that is affecting the side. But I would also say i think this is still Liverpool's best chance to win the Premiership and after this blip (which has been clearly identified at the manager level) they will be fighting for it. For me, they are still the favourites

[Chris O'C]

Bills comment about rugby being boring is quite obviously disagreed with by a good number of people given the ridiculous number of posts on the the rugby pages on this site.It was a cheap comment and why bother making it if you don't understand the sport. There are many things in rugby that could be argued as superior to soccer-the speed of some players, the physical strength of all and the bravery.

However....THEY ARE DIFFERENT SPORTS! I love soccer but I can't get excited about it the same way I would about rugby and i have never got the buzz I got from this weekend (even as an Ireland fan) from a soccer match. Fair enough-i am in the minority. Doesn't make it any less valid and the cheap throwaway comment "because people don't care about rugby" is patent nonsense and indicative of the inverted snobbery that sometimes can come from some (not all by any means) soccer fans.

Otherwise-love the podcast.(and the game it covers-its possible to love more then one sport)

[Aidan]

Gab

You say Taylor and Rozehnal are an underrated partnership but at the weekend both were dropped with the Czech on the bench and the Englishman in the stands. Cacapa and Faye started and will probably continue back there.

Loved the interview with the Alonso brothers and the discussion that followed. This is a really interesting page that I and others have updated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_(soccer)_families_of_note

[Luther Shortlan]

If your national goalkeepers had performed as badly as ours over the last 7 years, wouldn't the coaching come under question? But Ray Clemence is never mentioned - yet more jobs for the boys in English football?

Also, can you get someone from the FA on (preferably Barwick) and tell them there is no FIFA law banning retrospective punishment, which is the BS reason the Football Association always come out with as to why they can't use video evidence to ban people for diving etc. Funny how Italy, UEFA and so on can then.

[Jo S]

Guillem, you asked the charming Alonso bros what they liked, but what do Spanish players tell you they DON'T like about our football? The British press are usually mentioned at this point but Jordi Cruyff said they're kittens compared to the Spanish media so maybe not.

And what do you think we should take from Spain (apart from better technique obv)?

Gab, my Chelsea chums are marvelling at your stout defence of Avram Grant. They're concluding it can only be because you don't want to alienate anyone at the club and jeopardise your contacts, lucrative appearances on Chelsea TV etc.

I'd guess at it being your natural contrariness. Either that or being in close proximity to Laura Esposto for more than two hours the other day has sent you a bit dizzy.

You ludicrously compare Grant with Chris Hutchins and Sammy Lee. I don't like Peter Kenyon, but even I would concede Chelsea FC is slightly bigger than Wigan or Bolton. Nor would Mark Hughes have got it as his first big club job.

Coach of Maccabi Haifa, gofer at Portsmouth, manager of Chelsea - it's a natural career progression...

[Bharath Janardhan]

Hi Gab,

I guess that no one who's followed the exploits of the England U21's should be surprised at the fact that England now has wingers coming out at the ears. They're now first choice at their respective clubs as well, which should be an encouraging sign for those who knock down the youth system.
As for Newcastle, I feel that it is a case of 'as expected'. The one thing that everyone knew about Allardyce was that his teams are always solid defensively, which is crucial when a team is looking to build for the future. Blackburn and Everton are great examples, where the defense was the first priority when Hughes and Moyes started building.
With regards to liverpool, I feel that the wingers are really letting them down. Gerrard is constantly in the spotlight because he has no other outlet. Everything dangerous is coming from the central positions, which everyone has sussed out by now.
I don't think its a fluke that the assist for Liverpool's equaliser against Spurs came from a fullback. With the 4-5-1 that a lot of teams put out against them, it's imperative that they stretch the pitch and not get congested in the centre.
As for United, if they didn't have one dimensional central midfielders, then they would be ok. Scholes barely makes the kind of runs that he used to before, and Carrick and Hargreaves are never going to do that. This becomes exacerbated when they come up against 4-5-1 formations.

[Brendan]

i think Liverpool's woes have been vastly overstated.

It seems to me that journalists have been only too quick to buy into the "rotation is bad" concept rather than analyse what is actually happening.

Let's look at it analytically:

Liverpool's problems started with the game at Pompey.

Since then, they have remained solid for the most part in defence - they haven't been conceding a raft of chances, and the goals they have conceded from open play against Marseille and Spurs have featured exemplary finishing.

Liverpool's real problems have been on the other side of the ball. To put it bluntly, since the Pompey game, they have only looked fluent when they have held the lead and can counterattack into space. At other times, their distribution has been nothing short of dire.

Journalists haven't made the logical distinction between areas where Liverpool are struggling and areas where it is business as usual. If they had, the answers to Liverpool's problems would be self-evident: Xabi Alonso, and to a lesser extent, Daniel Agger.

I'm particularly disappointed in the discussion of Liverpool's woes on today's podcast. This is partly because you guys normally put more emphasis on genuine analysis than your rivals; and partly because the absent player at the heart of Liverpool's problems was featured in the same show!

I would have thought the fact that Alonso and Agger were injured during the Pompey match would make it easy for people to join the dots on why Liverpool are struggling. Not so, it seems.

Alonso is Liverpool's key attacking figure (which is not the same as being our "best" player). His ability to move the ball liberates Gerrard from responsibility for progressing the ball out of defence, leaving Gerrard to concentrate on linking with our forwards. His all but flawless distribution encourages and exploits the thoughtful running from our wide midfielders and fullbacks.

Without Alonso, Gerrard has had to come collect the ball off the centre backs - yet strategic short passing has never been his forte. It's no surprise the centre backs resorted to long balls much more frequently.

Alonso's injury has been exacerbated by Agger's absence. If Xabi was out, normally Agger would step forward and play in front of Carragher to get things moving so Gerrard can play further upfield. This is not really an option with a Hyypia-Carra partnership.

Alonso and Agger are supposedly set to return to the lineup at Goodison on the 20th. Let's see if Liverpool's fortunes don't sharply improve thereafter.